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sastusbulbas
04-01-2009, 11:55
Well here we have it, proven by some guy on another forum, cause he said some guy couldn't tell the difference between an iPod and £20k CD player.

Also as many forum guys have stated DBT's RULE and as such anything else is delusion. DBT's have proven all amplifiers sound the same.

Now the amplifier in question that many state is the Behringer A500 (£140. Trust me, this is a con, it is the same as the Alsesis RA300 (£112) which is cheaper. For the price of the Berhinger you could buy the bigger and more powerful Alesis RA500 (£140). Now under DBT's they all sound the same anyway, so really should only be chosen on required power. In this case the best speaker in the world requires a 5w to 40w amp, is 4ohm and 93db senitivity.

Also on another forum, a claim that a certain loudspeaker was best in the world could not be mentioned, which indicate proof that said loudspeaker is the best.

So sit down guys, this pill is not going to be easy to swallow, but you have to believe me! If you think otherwise, or hear a difference you do need to seek professional medical help, honest, the FACTS indicate this. You must believe and with utter conviction and blind faith trust this opinion, it was concluded with the infallible DBT! According to others on forums who heard others say they heard it.

I myself am hoping to be able to sell my own kit well before this is public knowledge, this should make me more than enough to buy a few of each of these items before the manufacturers realise what they have created.

Source, an iPod! start with a Shuffle £31, unless you have a large collection then you may need the bigger Classic £175.

http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_shuffle?mco=MTE2NTQ

http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_classic?mco=MTI4MDI

Amplification, Alesis RA150 £89. (All you need as indicated by the speaker specification)

http://www.bananadj.com/product12236_32665.aspx

Speakers, The Resolution S.U.H.T.L. £2150. (expensive, but I am sure in no time soon a DBT will prove a £200 pair as better!, If anyone has a link or such proving the ultimate speaker let me know)

http://www.resolution-loudspeakers.co.uk/

Hi Fi Rack, £7. Such an item was used in the proving an amps test. (I prefer the second option for looks though)

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/30082513

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/70095429

Cables have been utterly PROVEN to e FOO, and as such only the cheapest or freebie cables should be utilised!

Cheers, and happy listening.

anthonyTD
04-01-2009, 12:06
Well here we have it, proven by some guy on another forum, cause he said some guy couldn't tell the difference between an iPod and £20k CD player.

Also as many forum guys have stated DBT's RULE and as such anything else is delusion. DBT's have proven all amplifiers sound the same.

Now the amplifier in question that many state is the Behringer A500 (£140. Trust me, this is a con, it is the same as the Alsesis RA300 (£112) which is cheaper. For the price of the Berhinger you could buy the bigger and more powerful Alesis RA500 (£140). Now under DBT's they all sound the same anyway, so really should only be chosen on required power. In this case the best speaker in the world requires a 5w to 40w amp, is 4ohm and 93db senitivity.

Also on another forum, a claim that a certain loudspeaker was best in the world could not be mentioned, which indicate proof that said loudspeaker is the best.

So sit down guys, this pill is not going to be easy to swallow, but you have to believe me! If you think otherwise, or hear a difference you do need to seek professional medical help, honest, the FACTS indicate this. You must believe and with utter conviction and blind faith trust this opinion, it was concluded with the infallible DBT! According to others on forums who heard others say they heard it.

I myself am hoping to be able to sell my own kit well before this is public knowledge, this should make me more than enough to buy a few of each of these items before the manufacturers realise what they have created.

Source, an iPod! start with a Shuffle £31, unless you have a large collection then you may need the bigger Classic £175.

http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_shuffle?mco=MTE2NTQ

http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_classic?mco=MTI4MDI

Amplification, Alesis RA150 £89. (All you need as indicated by the speaker specification)

http://www.bananadj.com/product12236_32665.aspx

Speakers, The Resolution S.U.H.T.L. £2150. (expensive, but I am sure in no time soon a DBT will prove a £200 pair as better!, If anyone has a link or such proving the ultimate speaker let me know)

http://www.resolution-loudspeakers.co.uk/

Hi Fi Rack, £7. Such an item was used in the proving an amps test. (I prefer the second option for looks though)

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/30082513

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/70095429

Cables have been utterly PROVEN to e FOO, and as such only the cheapest or freebie cables should be utilised!

Cheers, and happy listening.

;):lolsign:
nice one steve...good to see you havent lost your sense of humour, or could it be that you realy have been taken over by the dark side!:eyebrows:

MartinT
04-01-2009, 12:10
It's really not worthy of a response. These people need only use their ears.

John
04-01-2009, 12:12
Well I am now going to sell all my speakers pre amp and power amp and be part of audio heaven
:lolsign:
I heard the above speakers many years ago all I will say they are not for me. But you hve to admire the marketing!

anthonyTD
04-01-2009, 12:19
the mere sugestion that all amplifiers sound the same on these speakers says it all realy, but hey, cant fault their marketing efforts...;)

Marco
04-01-2009, 12:32
These cretins need their heads looked at... And I know just the man to do it and what tools to use :eyebrows:

Marco.

sastusbulbas
04-01-2009, 12:39
Are people not convinced :confused:

Ali Tait
04-01-2009, 12:44
Woud these be the 2000 pound speakers using a cheapie 7 by 9 driver meant for a car's back shelf? Better sell my statics now...

Mike
04-01-2009, 13:13
Woud these be the 2000 pound speakers using a cheapie 7 by 9 driver meant for a car's back shelf?

Must not say such things:eyebrows:

I seem to remember these speakers 'doing the forum rounds' before....

Ali Tait
04-01-2009, 13:41
There is a review on TNT Audio.They were not that impressed.

Steve Toy
04-01-2009, 14:14
But subjective hands-on reviews have no credibility, do they?

MartinT
04-01-2009, 15:34
As far as I am concerned, DBT has no credibility. They involve playing music in artificial conditions using unknown listeners who may be unfamiliar with most/all of the equipment, the room acoustic and the music. That is no way to judge equipment and it's no wonder that DBT 'finds' that there is no difference between amps or whatever, despite obvious and glaring differences to anyone who listens carefully.

I'd far rather read a single subjective review by someone whose judgement I trust. Remember, reviews are for shortlisting only. You have to do the final listening yourself.

tfarney
04-01-2009, 16:45
Funny stuff. I got the links to the equipment, but not to the discussion of the DBT. Did I miss something? And of course a DBT wouldn't be B if the listeners were familiar with the equipment...

Tim

leo
04-01-2009, 18:21
I heard those speakers at one of the shows, its very rare I slate any product on a forum but to me the sound in that room was total tripe to my ears:scratch:

sastusbulbas
04-01-2009, 18:29
Funny stuff. I got the links to the equipment, but not to the discussion of the DBT. Did I miss something? And of course a DBT wouldn't be B if the listeners were familiar with the equipment...

Tim


Sorry Tim, it was all a bit of tongue in cheek. :)

The iPod, just something someone claimed which led to me being shown as deaf and delusional as I had came to a different conclusion on my own some time back.
No evidence was forthcoming I am afraid, not yet found any link or support for this claim of the iPod being equal to or better than a named £20k CD player? :confused:

One DBT, apparently one of a few which prove cables and amps sound the same :confused:
http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

The speakers, just another claim which ended up being questioned which ended up in any discussion regarding the claim being banned elsewhere due to legal action. :confused:

Um, while I think the iPod is ok, the amp fun, I have an unprintable opinion of the speakers.

I guess a pair of sub £100 speakers from Richer Sounds could be utilised with the basic Shuffle and £89 amp, so for around £240 you could have a giant killer system. ;)

As for the speaker room point, well elsewhere a claim seemed to indicate such as the Harman group had done some test with automated DBT proving something about speaker performance and perception? (not found the link nor was one provided).

Though I myself remember reading a certain reviewer talk of his experience of the automated DBT room in question, and the room is pretty much nothing like the average room with quite a few meters behind the speakers which led to that opinion leading to the view that although impressive it ultimately meant nothing?

Hence my joking opinion of rooms not being important, if DBT conditions are anything to go by ;)

Spectral Morn
04-01-2009, 20:51
I wonder if these D B T's allowed the Wadia CDP several weeks of warm up before doing their DBT. If they did not no wonder the high end system sounded like S--T. IMHO/E all Wadia CDP (except the new models or those modified by GNS) need a lot of warm up. Out of the box run in or not they sound crap. I am also not sure about the YBA amp with a Classe pre(again did these get a proper amount of time to warm up( I am not sure how they would match). I forgot these type of audio enthusiasts don't believe in run in/warm up (never mind anything else).

Frankly this type of experiment must allow everything to be fully set up and warmed up(even if you don't believe in a thing you should still allow for it, if nothing else to rule it out as a factor. Also to prevent me saying ah, yes, but Wadia CDP needs .......)

I think a lot of these D B T's are set to allow failure. Using fancy cables etc will only work if all set up factors are allowed for and both systems are properly matched.

The Matrix hi-fi set up frankly does not meet my criteria for a D B T.

Regards D S D L----- Neil

tfarney
05-01-2009, 02:01
Sorry Tim, it was all a bit of tongue in cheek. :)

The iPod, just something someone claimed which led to me being shown as deaf and delusional as I had came to a different conclusion on my own some time back.
No evidence was forthcoming I am afraid, not yet found any link or support for this claim of the iPod being equal to or better than a named £20k CD player? :confused:

One DBT, apparently one of a few which prove cables and amps sound the same :confused:
http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

The speakers, just another claim which ended up being questioned which ended up in any discussion regarding the claim being banned elsewhere due to legal action. :confused:

Um, while I think the iPod is ok, the amp fun, I have an unprintable opinion of the speakers.

I guess a pair of sub £100 speakers from Richer Sounds could be utilised with the basic Shuffle and £89 amp, so for around £240 you could have a giant killer system. ;)

As for the speaker room point, well elsewhere a claim seemed to indicate such as the Harman group had done some test with automated DBT proving something about speaker performance and perception? (not found the link nor was one provided).

Though I myself remember reading a certain reviewer talk of his experience of the automated DBT room in question, and the room is pretty much nothing like the average room with quite a few meters behind the speakers which led to that opinion leading to the view that although impressive it ultimately meant nothing?

Hence my joking opinion of rooms not being important, if DBT conditions are anything to go by ;)

If it is any consolation, that was no double blind ABX test, for a whole lot of reasons, and the results are not statistically valid. The results might even be what most of the listeners expected/wanted to hear. Imagine that. Also, FWIW, I listen to a lot of amps, preamps, dacs, etc, and I don't think all amps sound alike. I think they should, in a perfect world, and when they are good and competent, I think they sound very close, and when they have a distinctive signature sound of their own I think there is something very wrong. But even among good, competent, relatively neutral amps, I think there are subtle, audible differences.

All of that has to do with my view of the basic purpose of an amp. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Tim

Steve Toy
05-01-2009, 03:05
The manufacturers of the speakers whose drivers bear an uncanny resemblance to the ones you'd find on the rear parcel shelf of a car (just going by the pictures to my eyes and I'm certain the similarity ends with the appearance) are apparently rather trigger-happy with their lawyers where forums are concerned. It's either opportunistic litigation or they are sensitive souls.

Either way we should do nothing but heap praise on these fine transducers or express nohing more than an opinion as per our ethos.

Primalsea
05-01-2009, 19:43
I think this is the problem with DBT; methodology. They are potentially valid but although ours ears are sensitive and can detect differences we will not always get consistent results. This is because its impossible to be in the same frame of mind every-time you listen. Couple this with the pressure that any reviewer is going to be under to either find a difference or not find one. But we all know that it all sounds the same. Thats why demo at a hifi show sounds the same.

It looks like the guy who makes those speakers is making a rod for his own back. Forum members probably make up a large percentage of a potential customer base. Also referring to professional reviewers as paid off press isn't going to go well either.

The TNT review has been pulled from the TNT website but the speaker manufacturer has it on his website followed by an explanation of why the review was flawed and questioning the ability of the reviewer.

Any manufacturer is likely to get mixed opinions why not just except them and use them to improve and refine the product. Of course this them highlights the problem of grandly laming that the product is the best that will ever be, you can't then claim that you have improved it or you make yourself a liar.

I wonder if he will exhibit at a show this year, I would like to hear what all the fuss is about. I personally think that the complaint about the hotel rooms sounding bad is rubbish. I have heard some great things in those small rooms and one of them was Martin Logan Summits (dipoles in a small room). You can get very good results but unfortunately mostly the set ups are poor and / or the equipment is not good.

Mike
05-01-2009, 19:54
one of them was Martin Logan Summits (dipoles in a small room).

Tell me more, this is something I'm very interested in. I've fancied ML's for some time but never had the chance to hear any.

Primalsea
05-01-2009, 20:29
ML's are not everyones cup of tea but they do certain things much better than normal speakers.

Imaging is not always as good, they have a sweet spot and the difference in treble on axis and off axis is really noticable. Also not all models integrate the bass driver 100% with the panel.

However they are very transparent with no colouration like you get from boxes. Listen to both types and the difference becomes obvious. I cant go back to boxes now.

Let me know if you are down this way and I'll show you mine, they're big and black :eyebrows:

tfarney
05-01-2009, 21:56
I think this is the problem with DBT; methodology. They are potentially valid but although ours ears are sensitive and can detect differences we will not always get consistent results. This is because its impossible to be in the same frame of mind every-time you listen.

Not to bore all of you with more research talk, but this is a problem with faulty DBT methodology. Valid methodology would test enough subjects enough times to drive the incidence of these kinds of issues below the statistical margin for error. Blah, blah, blah...woof...

Done properly, the results of such testing are very consistent, if you're trying to test what DBT can test, which is not which system sounds better, but whether or not a variable can be heard. This test was shot full of holes at conception.

Tim

Marco
05-01-2009, 23:16
Hey Tim, sorry to butt in, but since we're always having chats about my system, etc, I thought you might like a look at the set-up, chez-Marco :) :

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1754

Marco.

tfarney
06-01-2009, 00:56
Hey Tim, sorry to butt in, but since we're always having chats about my system, etc, I thought you might like a look at the set-up, chez-Marco :) :

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1754

Marco.

That's a bloody impressive looking rig, Marco. What's the stack of stuff beneath the turntable?

Tim

Marco
06-01-2009, 01:14
Thanks. Do you mean the Copper valve amp, Tim?

If not, what "stack of stuff" are you referring to? :)

Marco.

tfarney
06-01-2009, 02:10
Actually I see it is under both racks. What looks like stacks of square boards or something?

Tim

Steve Toy
06-01-2009, 02:31
The boards themselves simply prevent gravity doing its nasty thing. The metalwork and spikes between each board actually do the work of unwanted energy transfer.

If you look in the gallery at my system you'll see a viable alternative solution to tackle the same issue using acrylic and fewer spike/shelf interfaces.

The benefits often outweigh those of a component upgrade on its own to our sensitive and discerning hearing.

Haselsh1
06-01-2009, 09:28
You know, I have no idea who the hell DBT are or what they stand for but are they really that stupid...??? Christ they'll be telling us next that digital is the best because it is the latest technology. This is one of the most ridiculous, narrow minded and stupid things I have ever heard in Hi-Fi circles. I am very familiar with the Behringer A500 amplifier and the design fault that is built in to that device. I am very familiar with the fact that as one turns down the input gain controls the distortion generated goes through the roof until the sound produced can no longer be tolerated. Does that make it a perfect amplifier...???

Filterlab
06-01-2009, 10:04
Maybe they only tested it at full gain. ;)

Beechwoods
06-01-2009, 19:43
You know, I have no idea who the hell DBT are or what they stand for but are they really that stupid...???

DBT (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-double-blind-test.htm) (Double Blind Test) is the test methodology where neither the person conducting the test or the test subject know if they are experiencing the 'real thing' or the placebo... incredibly difficult to get right in terms of hi-fi where so many factors will influence whether something sounds right or wrong in a given situation. Like component synergy, room size and furniture, mindset of the test subject, experience of the test subject, yada yada yada. The implementation of DBT when applied to hi-fi is, and I think there's consensus on this! The really stupid bit :)

Marco
06-01-2009, 20:02
The implementation of DBT when applied to hi-fi is, and I think there's consensus on this! The really stupid bit


Too right - in the context of hi-fi it's a load of bloody nonsense! It's just an excuse for blinkered measurement-types attempting to discredit valid subjective analysis through misplaced science.

Marco.

Beechwoods
06-01-2009, 20:07
2nd best post of the year! (After Tony C's)

It's early days Marco! Only 6 days in, but much appreciated nonetheless! :eyebrows:

Steve Toy
06-01-2009, 20:29
Too right - in the context of hi-fi it's a load of bloody nonsense! It's just an excuse for blinkered measurement-types attempting to discredit valid subjective analysis through misplaced science.



As a one-liner, this takes some beating. A snappy award methinks. :)

Marco
06-01-2009, 20:42
Why thank you, Mr Toy. I am........at your service :youtheman:

Marco.

Haselsh1
06-01-2009, 20:49
I do indeed remember when they tried this little piece of nonsense in the late seventies using the Linn LP12. If my memory is correct, Paul Messenger identified the LP12 every time...!!! So, what does that prove about DBT...???

Primalsea
06-01-2009, 20:55
Ah, Stupid is it? One of the things that draws the mention of DBT is claims that the difference is HUGE, NOT SUBTLE, NIGHT AND DAY AND SO ON. If the difference is that big why would it not show up easily on a DBT? Fo rthe most part in reality the changes are actually quite subtle, its just the impression that it leaves on you is huge.

Overstatement is as much the problem as anything else.

Marco
06-01-2009, 21:18
Ah, Stupid is it? One of the things that draws the mention of DBT is claims that the difference is HUGE, NOT SUBTLE, NIGHT AND DAY AND SO ON. If the difference is that big why would it not show up easily on a DBT?


Who says it wouldn't, Paul? I'll take part in one if you like with an LP12 and 1210 with the same arm and cartridge playing the same music and I guarantee I'll pick out either one every time! ;)

I do know what you mean though, and you have a point, but quite simply as Beechy has pointed out, there are too many variables with hi-fi for DBT to be successfully applied to it in terms of meaningful equipment or cable testing. For that purpose the process is fatally flawed. It has very good uses in other fields, though.

Marco.

tfarney
07-01-2009, 03:39
Who says it wouldn't, Paul? I'll take part in one if you like with an LP12 and 1210 with the same arm and cartridge playing the same music and I guarantee I'll pick out either one every time! ;)

I do know what you mean though, and you have a point, but quite simply as Beechy has pointed out, there are too many variables with hi-fi for DBT to be successfully applied to it in terms of meaningful equipment or cable testing. For that purpose the process is fatally flawed. It has very good uses in other fields, though.

Marco.

Hifi is as simple as a block of stone, compared to hundreds of things that have been tested, modeled and developed based on scientific methodologies similar to ABX testing, Marco.

Tim

Marco
07-01-2009, 12:12
It may be to you, Tim, and others of your particular mindset, but that doesn't automatically mean that it *is* ;)

Your thinking, as far as hi-fi is concerned, is rather too simplisitc. Whilst, 'hi-fi' isn't necessary complicated in terms of dealing with sound - it is much more complex than you think dealing with how we as humans listen to and appreciate music, which is fundamentally what hi-fi is all about. If I may draw your attention to the most recent addition to 'Our Ethos':


We would gladly use science automatically as the benchmark to judge all things hi-fi if we felt that it provided all the answers necessary. It would certainly be much easier having an 'undisputable reference' as one's basis for judgement. But it's the grey areas that bother us.

Quite clearly, science currently can't provide all the answers in audio, certainly as far as measuring how equipment and its associated ancillaries treats music signals and ascertaining how humans process recorded musical information via our ears and brain. Therefore grey areas exist because we are not robots; when listening to music our brains aren't programmed to respond in a specific way to known audio measurement parameters - the fact is, we do not listen to music in the way scientific apparatus measures sound.

If such apparatus could measure how we as humans listen to and appreciate music then measurements would be truly meaningful and embraced wholeheartedly by music enthusiasts and audiophiles alike. That is why audio/music enthusiasts like those on AOS will always trust their ears more than any scientific measurements, because what can currently be measured just doesn't tell the whole story.

Until the day comes when measurements unequivocally provide all the answers, we will happily continue using our discerning ears which for us are infinitely more accurate and reliable in ascertaining what really matters in hi-fi (and subsequently in our enjoyment of music), especially in those all-important grey areas... It's often the small details or 'grey areas' that make the most significant difference, and thus are ultimately of most significance!


I'd also add DBT into the mix with the scientific measurements mentioned above. In particular, I would draw your attention to the bit above in bold, which is ultimately why DBT is fatally flawed when applied to hi-fi. DBT doesn't deal sufficiently with the "grey areas" and all the variables that must be considered therein, some of them quite important!

As Steve has said in his latest addition to 'Our Ethos', psychoacoustics is an area of science some hi-fi 'measurement-types' should explore.

Marco.

Marco
08-01-2009, 00:37
Tim,

Are you still alive? ;)

Marco.

tfarney
08-01-2009, 03:40
It's all relative, Marco. Yes, "sound" is more complex than bits and valves and magnets and wire. But compared to modeling and projecting say, the effect that introducing a specific set of molecules will have on the human immune system, or measuring the reactions of a complex cross section of humans to a specific set emotional stimulus, and making predictive assumptions about how they will react to similar stimulus, it's a pretty blunt instrument. Yet we test, model, and measure complex things, and solve real problems based on the results all the time, with remarkable success rates. We leave our superstitions and pre-conceived notions behind and wade into scientific methodology time and time again, because the cost of not doing so is too great. Why not just trust our intuition...or ears? Because in most endeavors, we can't afford to dismiss all the science that doesn't tell us what we want to, or think, we hear. Most of it is not only more complex than the audiophile endeavor, but a bit more important as well.

To people of my mindset.

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 07:51
It's all relative, Marco. Yes, "sound" is more complex than bits and valves and magnets and wire. But compared to modeling and projecting say, the effect that introducing a specific set of molecules will have on the human immune system, or measuring the reactions of a complex cross section of humans to a specific set emotional stimulus, and making predictive assumptions about how they will react to similar stimulus, it's a pretty blunt instrument.


I agree. It's in applications like you describe above and in all forms of medicine which scientific values are much more successfully applied than in hi-fi (I mean in the sense of how our ears and brain interpret music signals via associated equipment and ancillaries), which in that respect is currently a subjective 'use your ears' beast until such times as science can provide all the necessary answers to the currently existing important grey areas.

The fact is, applying a scientific methodology suits certain things better than others - it cannot be universally applied to everything in life with the same level of success, and this is what I feel 'measurement-types' such as your good self should consider more. Quite simply, there's a time and place for everything - a time to 'switch on' one's 'scientific head', and obtain value from doing so, and also times when it should remain firmly 'switched off', usually out with of the lab when assessing hi-fi equipment and relaxing, listening to music at home ;)

What's your view of psychoacoustics?

Marco.

John
08-01-2009, 08:06
I think there are some interesting thoughts I think what we are dealing with is how we perceive and this is something that varies from person to person and often science deals in absolutes

Marco
08-01-2009, 08:18
That's absolutely true, John (no pun intended!)

Quite simply, absolutism of any description doesn't fit with hi-fi for a variety of reasons. I'm afraid those who think differently will never fully 'get' what it's about, particularly the relationship between music signals emitting from hi-fi equipment and the human ear and brain's processing of such, and thus never achieve true satisfaction from the wonderful world of hi-fi and music; constantly seeking 'proof' for everything heard or experienced just gets in the way.

I couldn't bear needing 'proof' of every effect I genuinely hear. There's a time in hi-fi after a certain amount of testing when you just have to trust your natural senses, relax, and go with the flow, which is precisely what I do :)

Marco.

tfarney
08-01-2009, 14:12
I agree. It's in applications like you describe above and in all forms of medicine which scientific values are much more successfully applied than in hi-fi (I mean in the sense of how our ears and brain interpret music signals via associated equipment and ancillaries), which in that respect is currently a subjective 'use your ears' beast until such times as science can provide all the necessary answers to the current important grey areas.

The fact is, applying a scientific methodology suits certain things in life better than others - it cannot be universally applied to everything with the same level of success, and this is what I feel 'measurement-types' such as your good self should consider more. Quite simply, there's a time and place for everything - a time to 'switch on' one's 'scientific head', and obtain value from doing so, and also times when it should remain firmly 'switched off', usually out with of the lab when assessing hi-fi equipment and relaxing, listening to music at home ;)

What's your view of psychoacoustics?

Marco.

Marco, I'm neither an absolutist or a "measurement type." On the contrary, I spent my career working in the world of perceptions and psychological biases. My personal experiences with research and testing have to do with developing communication based on the measurement of human attitudes and predictable responses to information and emotional stimulus. The things I've been tasked to measure, predict and bet millions on have rarely been based in mere facts. I am a strategic marketer, and my personal focus has been on brand development. You are the perfect target market.

Mine is a profession pregnant with "psycho-fillintheblank." I have commissioned the testing, analyzed the findings and bet millions on the results. I have a pretty good idea of what can and cannot be measured, and how accurate the results can be, particularly in areas where things are nowhere close to black and white. I have a really good feel for what people can and cannot believe, regardless of the facts. I can assure you, and you can, and no doubt will, choose not to believe me, that there is nothing about human perception of music played back on audio systems, high-end or otherwise, that precludes it from testing and analysis of perception and psychological bias, or prevents those influences from being successfully separated from what is actually being heard. Absolutely? No. Successfully? Absolutely.

Is it a "fact" that all amps sound the same or that vinyl is objectively superior to digital media? Of course not. Is it a fact that good testing can separate our love of specific components or broad technologies from our actual ability to hear the differences? Of course. And it really doesn't matter how badly you want not to believe it.

I can also tell you that many people, particularly men, believe that they are stoutly pragmatic and totally unaffected by image, status, or any other form of psychological bias. They trust their ears (or eyes, or logic) and do not believe they can be influenced. And I can tell you that they are influenced. Hugely influenced. I've watched it happen over and over again. I've bet millions on it, and when I tested the probablilties well up front, I won.

Marco, if you really believe that what you trust your ears to hear is not influenced by the experience of handling the vinyl, by the glow of the tubes the gleam of the copper, the rarity of the vintage DAC, the warm light of exclusivity that all of the above bathes you in and the way all of that makes you feel about yourself, you are precisely the kind of mark that the least ethical of my profession are looking for every day. Too bad the audiophile market is not a bit larger. We marketers spend billions creating that aura of exclusivity around luxury cars, vacation destinations, clubs, etc. You guys require so little. You're more than happy to talk yourselves into it with almost no encouragement.

With that, I believe I'm probably done with this subject, as it seems obvious that it is going nowhere. I just wanted to make sure you understand that I'm not only not an objectivist, I'm quite the opposite, and a pro with 25 years of experience to boot. Does that make me right and you wrong? Yeah, it probably does.

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 14:21
Tim,

That's a very good post and lots to discuss there! ;)

I will deal with it later.

Marco.

P.S I've just noticed your edit and think that you need to get this kind of pretentious nonsense right out of your head:


Does that make me right and you wrong? Yeah, it probably does.


There is no 'right or wrong' when it comes to the subjective elements of hi-fi - and that's a fact!!

More later...

tfarney
08-01-2009, 14:58
Tim,

That's a very good post and lots to discuss there! ;)

I will deal with it later.

Marco.

P.S I've just noticed your edit and think that you need to get this kind of pretentious nonsense right out of your head:



There is no 'right or wrong' when it comes to the subjective elements of hi-fi - and that's a fact!!

More later...

You think? I was half-joking. I would have given you half of one of these, had it been available: :) But the other half of me says there is no pretense in assuming that someone who spent his career testing, analyzing, manipulating and using the subjective, emotional and psychologically biased to his advantage would be right about it than it would be to assume that your doctor might have a better chance of diagnosing your illness than you would yourself. Here. Have another: :)

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 15:24
Yes, Tim, but hi-fi isn't like medicine or whatever you do for a living - it requires some lateral and subjective thinking, not dealing in absolutes, something which scientists often struggle with! Your expertise in your profession has no bearing whatsoever in your ability to assess the effects of hi-fi equipment any better than I can. If you think differently then I'm afraid you're just kidding yourself on ;)

You're making the fatal mistake of applying the same principles as you do in your profession to hi-fi and using it as a sticking plaster to cover up the insecurities you have from being able to hear differences with equipment - things that scientifically shouldn't happen - and yet not being able to 'prove' why they do happen... I distinctly remember how you behaved when briefly dabbling with tube gear in your headphone set-up.

Hi-fi objectivists often require science as a 'crutch' to hide their audio insecurities because so much of hi-fi is subjective and therefore 'proof' (the panacea for all objectivists) is thin on the ground. I find this most amusing!

I've met guys like you all too often before, Tim, but it's always fun exchanging dialogue with them :)

I will return to your main post later as it requires dissecting in some detail.

Marco.

tfarney
08-01-2009, 17:27
Yes, Tim, but hi-fi isn't like medicine or whatever you do for a living - it requires some lateral and subjective thinking, not dealing in absolutes, something which scientists often struggle with! Your expertise in your profession has no bearing whatsoever in your ability to assess the effects of hi-fi equipment any better than I can. If you think differently then I'm afraid you're just kidding yourself on


But I'm not talking about hifi, Marco, or my ability to assess it. I'm talking about the the ability to identify an opportunity, create a psychological bias, and use it to a positive commercial effect, fully understanding, testing and measuring what is perception and what are the true, substantive differentiators. You're right to assume that it has nothing specifically to do with hifi. Your mistake -- and I'm sorry, but it is so common an error as to be completely uninteresting -- is to assume that your particular area of interest, and you, are at all immune.

There is no doubt in my mind who is kidding themselves. No smileys necessary.

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 17:32
Hahahaha...very good, Tim :lol:

You've got this "psychological bias" thing on the brain! I'm not saying I'm immune to anything; merely that because you don't know me you're making the wrong assumptions. Like I said, I'll dissect all this in detail later because you're reading of this matter is, erm, somewhat 'skewed' to say the least.

In the meantime, how's the weather where you are?

Marco.

tfarney
08-01-2009, 18:13
Hahahaha...very good, Tim :lol:

You've got this "psychological bias" thing on the brain! I'm not saying I'm immune to anything; merely that because you don't know me you're making the wrong assumptions. Like I said, I'll dissect all this in detail later because you're reading of this matter is, erm, somewhat 'skewed' to say the least.

In the meantime, how's the weather where you are?

Marco.

It looks like I imagine England must. Grey. Damp. Cool.

Actually, I think I might know you well enough :), but it is not at all necessary. The human penchant to see, hear, feel and otherwise believe what feels good to believe, often in complete denial of reality, is as ubiquitous as....well, wet in England, to go full circle. Personal knowledge of the victims is not at all necessary. Observation of his behavior is.

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 19:14
"Victims", Tim?

I think you are in one weird world inside your head, which no-one else inhabits but you! I certainly don't belong in there, that's for sure :eyebrows:

Sorry to hear it's grey and damp where you are, but I've no idea what it's like in England - I live in Wales. One day you Yankie boys will learn that the UK is made up of other countries than just England ;)

Marco.

Togil
08-01-2009, 19:26
"Victims", Tim?

I think you are in one weird world inside your head, which no-one else inhabits but you! I certainly don't belong in there, that's for sure :eyebrows:

Sorry to hear it's grey and damp where you are, but I've no idea what it's like in England - I live in Wales. One day you Yankie boys will learn that the UK is made up of other countries than just England ;)

Marco.

That reminds of an event many many years ago when I met some foreign students in Munich and asked them where they were from.

"England" was the answer.

Oh, where in England ?

"Dublin"

Oh, but that's not England ......

" But whenever we say Ireland no-one's ever heard of it "

tfarney
08-01-2009, 19:40
"Victims", Tim?

I think you are in one weird world inside your head, which no-one else inhabits but you! I certainly don't belong in there, that's for sure :eyebrows:

Sorry to hear it's grey and damp where you are, but I've no idea what it's like in England - I live in Wales. One day you Yankie boys will learn that the UK is made up of other countries than just England ;)

Marco.

Yes. England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales. Did I miss any? Do you guys still have Canada? I know where that is. And yes...victims :).

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 19:40
Hans,

Yep, no offence to Tim, it simply highlights how narrow-minded a view of the UK is held by some people abroad. Living outside of all-dominating England bloody England this is a particular bug-bear of mine. I'm sure the Irish and the Scots feel the same!

Marco.

Marco
08-01-2009, 19:43
Yes. England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales. Did I miss any? Do you guys still have Canada? I know where that is. And yes...victims.


The only "victim" I know of here, Tim, is the one who's so blind he can't read the location on the top R/H corner of my posts!! :lolsign:

;)

Marco.

tfarney
08-01-2009, 19:43
Yep, no offence to Tim, it simply highlights how narrow-minded a view of the UK is held by some people abroad. Living outside of all-dominating England bloody England this is a particular bug-bear of mine. I'm sure the Irish and the Scots feel the same!

Marco.

No offence taken, as I didn't say you were in England, I only said the rain was.

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 19:48
Hehehe, I can guarantee one thing... You'll get bored of this long before I do! ;)

Marco.

MartinT
08-01-2009, 19:53
Living outside of all-dominating England bloody England this is a particular bug-bear of mine. I'm sure the Irish and the Scots feel the same!

Wrong way round, Marco. When asked for my nationality, I say 'British'. When asked for my country, I say 'UK'. It's the Scots and co. that remain staunchly anti-union, supporting other teams against the England teams etc. etc. Yawn.

aquapiranha
08-01-2009, 19:54
Did you know that each and every day an area the size of Wales clings to England for support???

Sorry Marco, I could not resist - all in jest you understand.... ;-)

Marco
08-01-2009, 20:01
Wrong way round, Marco. When asked for my nationality, I say 'British'. When asked for my country, I say 'UK'. It's the Scots and co. that remain staunchly anti-union, supporting other teams against the England teams etc. etc. Yawn.

Touchy touchy! I think it's best not to go there, Martin! Besides, the remark wasn't aimed at you ;)

Steve,

LOL! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Beechwoods
08-01-2009, 20:09
You can always spot a Gog 'cos they're more argumentative than those south of the M40

:lolsign:

Shouldn't that be the M4? The M40 runs Northwest from London to Birmingham. In England. The M4 slices the bottom bit off Wales. Anthony lives North of the M4 and he's no Gog :confused:

Steve Toy

Marco
08-01-2009, 20:16
LOL! But remember my cultural roots (and no it's not Scotland) - I ain't no "Gog" ;)

Marco.

Beechwoods
08-01-2009, 20:26
:lol: Not even a little bit when it's Wrexham versus Swansea in the Rugby ;)

anthonyTD
08-01-2009, 20:35
:lol: Not even a little bit when it's Wrexham versus Swansea in the Rugby ;)

hey,
lay off us woolies.:lol:
:lolsign:

Marco
08-01-2009, 20:42
Not even a little bit when it's Wrexham versus Swansea in the Rugby

LOL, perhaps. I'm not a rugby man (football is my game) but I'll support Wales in anything against England in sport, mainly because of the underdog factor :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
08-01-2009, 20:48
:lol:

tfarney
08-01-2009, 20:55
A thread well-crept, if I ever saw one. Much more fun to watch you blokes piss over your national identities than to attempt to get Marco to embrace the possibility of his own psychological bias. A lost cause, that. I really suppose I should re-visit school. Wales is a country? I thought the UK was a country, Wales was a...a province? A colony? It's all so difficult to keep in perspective from here, where we have farms the size of Whales...ducking and running...:) :)...here, have another: :).

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 20:58
No, no, we'll get to how wrong you are later, Timmy boy, when I address your earlier 'epistle' - you can be rest assured of that! ;)

[Just noticed your edit - :)]

Marco.

Filterlab
08-01-2009, 21:05
...where we have farms the size of Whales...

LOL! That's true, but it's no coincidence that English is spoken in more countries around the world than any other language. :)

tfarney
08-01-2009, 23:08
LOL! That's true, but it's no coincidence that English is spoken in more countries around the world than any other language. :)

Perhaps, but I think it is because the world appreciates a challenge...

Tim

tfarney
08-01-2009, 23:09
No, no, we'll get to how wrong you are later, Timmy boy, when I address your earlier 'epistle' - you can be rest assured of that! ;)

[Just noticed your edit - :)]

Marco.

We edit because we care.

Tim

Marco
08-01-2009, 23:11
Perhaps, but I think it is because the world appreciates a challenge...


You should try Scottish! :lol:

Ye'd no huv a scoobie whit yon glechit stoaters ur chunterin oan aboot :ner:

Marco.

Filterlab
08-01-2009, 23:34
Or Geordie actually, that's quite a challenge for the uninitiated.