View Full Version : Presence
Does your system have presence?
I am of the opinion that if you get it, you have hit the nail on the head as far as system synergy and enjoyment is concerned. I have had it in the past and lost it on numerous occasions as a result of mindless meddling. I have got it back now, quite by chance:D
Been and gone came back for a while last week but i had to give the amp back :(, i agree that meddling is not always the best solution :doh:
I have had it in the past and lost it on numerous occasions...
Come on, man, that's why you're taking the Viagra! :D
Marco.
No hard feelings Marco.....:lol:
Hehehe... I thought that would appeal to you :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yes, most of the time. But it does depend on the software (direct cut LPs, certain Decca SXLs) as well as the cartridge used (again the Deccas excel in this aspect).
I found stacking Quad '57s produced an amazing sense of presence: not the "performers are right here in your listening room", but rather "you are there at the performance venue". Unfortunately, I do not have the room for stacked Quads. :(
Changing my preamp has helped a lot, an observation corroborated by independent listeners.
Unfortunately, I do not have the room for stacked Quads. :(
That's debatable, IMO, as a mate of mine (Ian Walker) had stacked Quads, in a room rather smaller than yours, and they worked superbly well...
Also, you're your own boss at home - there is no 'her indoors' in the equation (as far as I know), so 'SWMBO rules' don't apply. If you want stacked Quads, you can bloody well afford them, so worry not, and get the choons going! :eyebrows:
I don't have 'enough room' for 15" Tannoys, plonked inside bad-ass 'wardrobes', but do you see that stopping me?? ;)
Life's too short not to indulge your passions!
Marco.
hifinutt
20-03-2012, 05:46
been searching for presence avidly for a long time now! just got some martin logans and even powering off a dac as a pre [till pre arrives] its sounds very real indeed , cracking
Hi all,
I used to have some Royd Abbots, driven by a Nait 3 and they had the most amazing presence. It was like you were at a live concert with many tracks.
I think the abbots were known for their presence and it was due to having high output in a certain part of the frequency range (1kHz if I remember correctly).
Unfortunately, they were severely lacking in the bass region and I swapped them for some linn keilidhs (what was I thinking?) which were just dull.:rolleyes:
Martin
I know what you mean: the spine-tingling thrill of playing music and finding it vivid and real. I lost it a while back and it took some fiddling with cables and connections to make it better than ever. Sometimes meddling is a good lesson in itself.
Interesting comments chaps. In the past few days an additional sub and a change of dac have made an enormous difference. The dac on it's own has not been responsible for this in the past. What surprises me is that by judicious tuning of both subs I am getting harder and deeper bass with (IMO) no fat bloated bass and it is visceral and real. This then enhances mid and treble so that what might have been called more difficult discs sound much much better and I have found myself listening to stuff I would have avoided. Baically I am having real fun......until I fiddle again...:rolleyes:
I found stacking Quad '57s produced an amazing sense of presence
.
That was one of the best if not the best i have had out of my system, the voices just float in the middle, i don't think i have heard anything to match that yet and that was in a smallish room firing across with sloping ceilings sitting about 8 ft away, but that sweet spot is very narrow,
sorry for those that have seen these pics before.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3341&highlight=weekend
Reid Malenfant
20-03-2012, 20:10
Interesting comments chaps. In the past few days an additional sub and a change of dac have made an enormous difference. The dac on it's own has not been responsible for this in the past. What surprises me is that by judicious tuning of both subs I am getting harder and deeper bass with (IMO) no fat bloated bass and it is visceral and real. This then enhances mid and treble so that what might have been called more difficult discs sound much much better and I have found myself listening to stuff I would have avoided. Baically I am having real fun......until I fiddle again...:rolleyes:
Hmmm, I think I might describe this more as gravitas. Though I know 100% where you are coming from with the clean & extended bass making midrange & treble all the more clear, strange thing but true :scratch:
So I guess a cautionary yes, though I'm sure things will only improve when I have a D'appolito arrangement of the front speakers in the not too distant future :)
Can’t get presence in my place. Had it elswhere. :(
My mate has got it in his music room and that, I think, is what makes the difference between good sound and the full illusion…….the room; rather than primarily the kit.
You can put mega bucks worth of well set up Hi Fi in the wrong room and it just won’t do it; the wrong room just sings along and mostly out of tune.:eek:
I'm sure things will only improve when I have a D'appolito arrangement of the front speakers in the not too distant future :)
I already have that ;)
Reid Malenfant
20-03-2012, 20:28
I already have that ;)
You sure Martin? I thought you had two bass drivers at the bottom, a mid above it & a tweeter at the top with your Ushers? :scratch:
d'Appolito designed the crossover and voicing and the drivers are time aligned.
magiccarpetride
20-03-2012, 20:49
Does your system have presence?
I am of the opinion that if you get it, you have hit the nail on the head as far as system synergy and enjoyment is concerned. I have had it in the past and lost it on numerous occasions as a result of mindless meddling. I have got it back now, quite by chance:D
The way I see it, most good systems give you the "almost as if you're there" illusion. But the excellent, kick-ass sound system will go one up and give you the "as if they're here, in your room" illusion. And that's what I call presence.
Does my system have it? Yes, it most certainly does, but with a proviso: I can dial this presence up in my system by dicking around with the low level settings in my Squeezebox Touch. I can make the sound literally leap out of the speakers and conjure up musicians in my room. It's eery how lifelike it all sounds. That eery presence, however, comes with certain cost. And that cost manifests itself in fatiguing. So if I'm going to spend 30 minutes up to an hour max listening to some exciting music, I may dial in my 'presence' profile on the Touch. But for those marathon listening sessions that may last for hours on end, I will pull back and dial in more mellow, less present profile.
Perhaps there is a way to have best of both worlds at the same time; alas, I wasn't able to discover it, so far.
I can make the sound literally leap out of the speakers and conjure up musicians in my room. It's eery how lifelike it all sounds. That eery presence, however, comes with certain cost.
Do tell! What low level parameters do you tweak in the Touch?
Reid Malenfant
20-03-2012, 20:53
d'Appolito designed the crossover and voicing and the drivers are time aligned.
Not the same as the driver arrangement though, this mirrors drivers either side of the tweeter. So in a two way you'd have an MTM, with three way you'd have BMTMB kind of thing...
He's known for more than one design element of speakers :)
Reid Malenfant
20-03-2012, 20:59
He's known for more than one design element of speakers :)
Oh yes, but I refering to the driver arrangement. While its superior to non time aligned drivers I found out a good few years back that with them properly time aligned it's even better :)
realysm42
20-03-2012, 21:14
I've never heard another hi-fi system, ever, so I've got nothing to compare mine to.
Personally I love it; when I get to one of these shows sometime I may fall out of love lol. I've still got loads I want to do, I hope my meddling doesn't take me back a step.
Hmmm, I think I might describe this more as gravitas. Though I know 100% where you are coming from with the clean & extended bass making midrange & treble all the more clear, strange thing but true :scratch:
So I guess a cautionary yes, though I'm sure things will only improve when I have a D'appolito arrangement of the front speakers in the not too distant future :)
Gravitas is described variously, but mostly as weight, seriousness, dignity. I suppose weight would apply, not sure about the other two?
That eery presence, however, comes with certain cost. And that cost manifests itself in fatiguing. So if I'm going to spend 30 minutes up to an hour max listening
Perhaps there is a way to have best of both worlds at the same time; alas, I wasn't able to discover it, so far.
This is what I find so fascinating. I can listen at fairly high levels without fatigue, whereas before this meddling it would get a bit harsh and not all discs sounded good.
Reid Malenfant
20-03-2012, 21:31
Gravitas is described variously, but mostly as weight, seriousness, dignity. I suppose weight would apply, not sure about the other two?
Other two? Please expand here Rob & I'll attempt to answer..
I have never applied the last two definitions to my audio experience? How would you relate these to your listening experience.
Reid Malenfant
20-03-2012, 21:58
I have never applied the last two definitions to my audio experience? How would you relate these to your listening experience.
Like yourself I can listen at quite silly volume levels with no listening fatigue, however, I'd still like to know what these last two definitions are so I can attempt to give you a decent answer.
As I mentioned previously:-
Other two? Please expand here Rob & I'll attempt to answer..
I'll get back to you tomorrow assuming I get a reply :)
magiccarpetride
20-03-2012, 22:10
This is what I find so fascinating. I can listen at fairly high levels without fatigue, whereas before this meddling it would get a bit harsh and not all discs sounded good.
You, my friend, have struck gold. Or so it seems (sounds?)
The way I see it, most good systems give you the "almost as if you're there" illusion. But the excellent, kick-ass sound system will go one up and give you the "as if they're here, in your room" illusion. And that's what I call presence.
Wrong! It should never sound like the performers are in your listening room. A single folk singer perhaps, but the entire Vienna Philharmonic? No thank you, that would sound ridiculous.
'Presence' is when you feel you have been transported to the performance venue. That is, somewhere around the plane of your speakers, the walls of your listening room disappear and are replaced by the walls of the concert venue. I want to hear the acoustic of the performance venue and of the performers within it - that's what I call presence!
And I can listen to it for hours at a time.
magiccarpetride
20-03-2012, 22:23
Do tell! What low level parameters do you tweak in the Touch?
Decided to take the red pill, huh? Are you sure you want to go down this rabbit hole?
I'm a bit of a Linux guy, so this reply may end up being a bit too technical (apologies for the computer geeky stuff):
To cut the long story short, you can ssh into your Touch from your iPad or whathaveyou, at which point you should go to the usr/bin directory and start playing with the tt configuration file. Making changes to many of the parameters found in there could result in drastic and stunning changes in the sound you're hearing (this is all assuming that you're using your Touch as a digital transport, feeding digital signal into an outboard DAC).
The sheer magnitude of combinations and recombinations of various parameter levels could entrap a traveller for a lifetime. Don't say I haven't warned you!
Making changes to many of the parameters found in there could result in drastic and stunning changes in the sound you're hearing (this is all assuming that you're using your Touch as a digital transport, feeding digital signal into an outboard DAC).
Thanks, I shall have a play. And yes, I'm feeding a DAC.
magiccarpetride
20-03-2012, 22:27
Wrong! It should never sound like the performers are in your listening room. A single folk singer perhaps, but the entire Vienna Philharmonic? No thank you, that would sound ridiculous.
'Presence' is when you feel you have been transported to the performance venue. That is, somewhere around the plane of your speakers, the walls of your listening room disappear and are replaced by the walls of the concert venue. I want to hear the acoustic of the performance venue and of the performers within it - that's what I call presence!
And I can listen to it for hours at a time.
Obviously our aesthetic sensibilities differ, and they're almost diametrically opposed. Still, I wouldn't call your approach wrong.
The thing is, as exciting as it is to me to be transported elsewhere, it gets even more exciting if I can transport those musicians into my listening room. Yes, a good system will transport me to the Abbey Road studio where the Beatles were recording "I'm a Loser", but a notch better system will bring John and the lads straight to my room, so that I can see them standing right in front of me! And that can truly blow my mind.
magiccarpetride
20-03-2012, 22:30
Thanks, I shall have a play. And yes, I'm feeding a DAC.
Great. Don't forget to share your findings -- we're all on the learning path here, as computer audio is still in its early infancy. There are many, many undiscovered things about what contributes to quality sound if played from the computer, so I'm hoping you'll stumble upon some gems.
But don't forget -- the joy is in sharing!
'Presence' is when you feel you have been transported to the performance venue. That is, somewhere around the plane of your speakers, the walls of your listening room disappear and are replaced by the walls of the concert venue. I want to hear the acoustic of the performance venue and of the performers within it - that's what I call presence!
And I can listen to it for hours at a time.
Yes, that is it. You've hit the nail on the head. However, listening to Eva Cassidy - Fields of Gold (Live) is a real "live" experience - spine tingling.
so are you going to divulge the details of your new dac and what else you have done to achieve this ??? :D
so are you going to divulge the details of your new dac and what else you have done to achieve this ??? :D
Jon, not a new dac at all. In fact most of the dacs I have would provide a good platform. The one I am using at the moment is a modded Dacmagic 1 (or 2i to give it it's proper name) These are the mods set out in Hifi News in the 90's for which Audiocom provided a kit. Basically nearly all the caps were replaced with Pannys (PS stuff) and Oscons, and all the regs replaced with LT ones. I bought the dac 2nd hand, must have been about 12 years ago. IMO these are pretty good.
Rob.
I had some time this afternoon to analyse what I have been talking about. I think that what is happening is that the room is being really effectively driven. With back loaded horns and two subs, the result is felt as well as heard. You know those sort of almost subliminal bass "occurrences" (that's the only way I can describe them) that you hear on acoustic tracks, well they are always there.
Oh yes. Richard Lord of REL used to talk about the effects of ultra deep bass reproduction on the rest of the frequency spectrum. That subliminal stuff really contributes to the whole.
StanleyB
21-03-2012, 19:27
Oh yes. Richard Lord of REL used to talk about the effects of ultra deep bass reproduction on the rest of the frequency spectrum. That subliminal stuff really contributes to the whole.
Not trying to shill, but that's the same conclusion I came to whilst listening to the Bushmaster. Because it goes down all the way to 0Hz I can now hear recorded details in some tracks that I am convinced were not supposed to be audible. Examples of that are vocal reflections of the walls in a recording booth. Or concert players shuffling about on their chairs.
Reid Malenfant
21-03-2012, 19:31
Because it goes down all the way to 0Hz I can now hear recorded details in some tracks that I am convinced were not supposed to be audible.
I think you mean less than 1Hz Stan as 0Hz is precisely that - zero - nothing, as in it doesn't exist :eyebrows:
It'd be a poor digital system that couldn't get down to below 1Hz imo.
Not trying to shill, but that's the same conclusion I came to whilst listening to the Bushmaster. Because it goes down all the way to 0Hz I can now hear recorded details in some tracks that I am convinced were not supposed to be audible. Examples of that are vocal reflections of the walls in a recording booth. Or concert players shuffling about on their chairs.
I wouldn't consider your post as shilling in the slightest. Your comments are very valid and perhaps explain more my experience. There are some tracks I have played that I suspect could make one feel a little queasy.... Oeerrr:lol:
that's the same conclusion I came to whilst listening to the Bushmaster
That's good to know, Stan. As an aside, the upgraded Gator has had a similar effect in my system, with some real subterranean stuff coming through more obviously on Sky HD programming and Blu-ray discs.
It'd be a poor digital system that couldn't get down to below 1Hz imo.
There are many systems that can show a ruler flat response down to infra-bass levels. You and I know though, Mark, that there are huge differences in the manner that those systems actually portray bass.
Whatever the "psychobabble" on the effects heard or not heard, I can say that in the past few days I have listened to whole albums, not just tracks, or more to the point parts of tracks (that either didn't sound right or something). Something I haven't done for a loooong long time.
Reid Malenfant
21-03-2012, 21:02
There are many systems that can show a ruler flat response down to infra-bass levels. You and I know though, Mark, that there are huge differences in the manner that those systems actually portray bass.
True, lots can introduce a good deal of phase shift :(
The thing is though you need a system that is capable of reproducing the subterranean stuff or all you''ll be hearing is harmonics of the fundamental. While that can certainly give clues to what is going on & give the impression of the original tone, it just doesn't compare to the proper reproduction of the fundamental.
Unless your speakers are capable of sub 20Hz then you will only hear overtones & not the sub 20Hz content as they simply cannot reproduce it. Speakers will always be the weakest link ;)
StanleyB
21-03-2012, 22:34
I think you mean less than 1Hz Stan as 0Hz is precisely that - zero - nothing, as in it doesn't exist :eyebrows:.
Instead of 0Hz I should have put DC ;). That can be measured at below 1mV.
Reid Malenfant
21-03-2012, 22:58
Instead of 0Hz I should have put DC ;). That can be measured at below 1mV.
Yep, agreed, I think I can measure that down to 100nV with my Fluke..
Jac Hawk
22-03-2012, 00:04
I've read this thread with interest, and to be honest it's totally subjective, what sounds the dogs danglies to one may not do it for another, also in my opinion Presence can also hinge on the recording, if it's been well produced etc.
Personally I enjoy listening to my multi channel setup, as the extra channels give a better representation of the environment the music was recorded in, for example listening to U2 "under a blood red sky" just by closing your eyes you are in the middle of a crowd with the crowd noise coming from all around you and the music takes on a 3D like quality, the sound stage has massive depth, in comparison listening to Eric Clapton "unplugged" it feels like you're in a small club with Eric literally sat on a stool in front of you. So in my opinion if it's Presence you're after try multi channel;)
Jac Hawk
22-03-2012, 00:05
Yep, agreed, I think I can measure that down to 100nV with my Fluke..
Nice bit of kit those Fluke multimeters, mine got nicked :(
I've read this thread with interest, and to be honest it's totally subjective, what sounds the dogs danglies to one may not do it for another, also in my opinion Presence can also hinge on the recording, if it's been well produced etc.
Personally I enjoy listening to my multi channel setup, as the extra channels give a better representation of the environment the music was recorded in, for example listening to U2 "under a blood red sky" just by closing your eyes you are in the middle of a crowd with the crowd noise coming from all around you and the music takes on a 3D like quality, the sound stage has massive depth, in comparison listening to Eric Clapton "unplugged" it feels like you're in a small club with Eric literally sat on a stool in front of you. So in my opinion if it's Presence you're after try multi channel;)
Yes, I agree. Of course it is subjective. I tried surround sound years ago and found that the rear effects were a bit false (5.1) I suppose 7.1 might give a different take on it.
Jac Hawk
22-03-2012, 12:31
thing is rob i'm not talking about listening in Dolby 5.1 or 7.1, on both those systems i would agree the sound with respect to playing music doesn't really cut it, however i stumbled upon the SRS setting on my A/V amp and i must say for music it's just brilliant at giving that "as if you were there" feeling.
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