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chrism
19-03-2012, 13:35
Anyone done any listening testing with the different types of cabling up between the SB Touch and Caiman? I am interested in the actual connection type comparisons ie Coaxial, USB and Toslink rather than cable brand names.

I was reading about the Touch to M-DAC over on PFM and that USB had a few issues unless a cheap USB buffer was used between the two.

Regards

Chris

MartinT
19-03-2012, 15:01
Hi Chris

I only compared co-ax and optical from my Touch to the Caiman and there's very little in it. I've stuck with co-ax as I need the optical input for my Sky HD box.

I don't see the point of trying USB as it's a needlessly complex interface when S/PDIF is available.

Welder
19-03-2012, 15:17
I take it you have a Touch and Caiman, so why on earth don't you try for yourself and make your own mind up? :scratch:

chrism
19-03-2012, 15:22
I take it you have a Touch and Caiman, so why on earth don't you try for yourself and make your own mind up? :scratch:

And why bother posting at all?

My Touch is on its way and I was passing the time of day here. I currently run a well modified SB3 into a Caiman using SPDIF and was contemplating buying a couple of cables for comparison when the Touch arrives.

Some folk! :steam:

magiccarpetride
19-03-2012, 16:47
Anyone done any listening testing with the different types of cabling up between the SB Touch and Caiman? I am interested in the actual connection type comparisons ie Coaxial, USB and Toslink rather than cable brand names.

I was reading about the Touch to M-DAC over on PFM and that USB had a few issues unless a cheap USB buffer was used between the two.

Regards

Chris

My home brewed lame tests got me convinced that digital coax is the way to go. Much more sparkle to the sound than what I'm hearing from the optical.

However, it may be down to the cable brand names, so we may be back to square one?

MartinT
19-03-2012, 18:23
However, it may be down to the cable brand names, so we may be back to square one?

Indeed, my optical is a 0.5m Kimber and the digital a 1m Belden 75 ohm. I'm sure for longer runs the co-ax starts to win over the optical.

lovejoy
20-03-2012, 15:15
The USB connection to an M-DAC is quite a different thing to the USB connection to a Caiman.

The M-DAC, and other Audiolabs - The 8200CD and CDQ all have Asynchronous USB inputs. Because the SB Touch is using an old Linux kernel as standard it doesn't support Async USB input, so a bunch of guys came up with a way of getting it to work but with a couple of fudges that meant that the only way to get it to work reliably without it clicking and popping was to put a USB2.0 hub between the Touch and the Audiolab to act as a buffer.

The Caiman won't need this as the USB input is isochronous, not asynchronous. The Touch wasn't designed to connect a DAC to it's USB socket - it was put there for input from USB sticks or hard drives, but if you want to try USB then you'll need either to install Soundcheck's TT3.0 software mods or follow the instructions for using the modified kernel on the SB Touch forums.

My experience with the Caiman is that the results are more dependent on the quality of the cable you are using than the type of connection you are using, so if you've got a decent optical or coax cable then there's probably no benefit unless you've got something like a Kimber USB cable.

chrism
20-03-2012, 15:41
The USB connection to an M-DAC is quite a different thing to the USB connection to a Caiman.

The M-DAC, and other Audiolabs - The 8200CD and CDQ all have Asynchronous USB inputs. Because the SB Touch is using an old Linux kernel as standard it doesn't support Async USB input, so a bunch of guys came up with a way of getting it to work but with a couple of fudges that meant that the only way to get it to work reliably without it clicking and popping was to put a USB2.0 hub between the Touch and the Audiolab to act as a buffer.

The Caiman won't need this as the USB input is isochronous, not asynchronous. The Touch wasn't designed to connect a DAC to it's USB socket - it was put there for input from USB sticks or hard drives, but if you want to try USB then you'll need either to install Soundcheck's TT3.0 software mods or follow the instructions for using the modified kernel on the SB Touch forums.

My experience with the Caiman is that the results are more dependent on the quality of the cable you are using than the type of connection you are using, so if you've got a decent optical or coax cable then there's probably no benefit unless you've got something like a Kimber USB cable.

Thanks Rich,

This is what I was hoping for. I also realise that the USB input in the Caiman is 16/44 unlike the M-DAC which appear to allow up to 96 if I am reading the PFM post correctly.

I may have ago at downloading the software mod and trying the USB patch for comparison.

Regards

Chris

Clothears
20-03-2012, 21:04
I have recently bought myself a SBT which is fed directly into my amp (I do not have a DAC), and it sounds tremendous. Would I really get that much of an improvement by having a DAC in between?


.

twelvebears
20-03-2012, 21:40
I take it you have a Touch and Caiman, so why on earth don't you try for yourself and make your own mind up? :scratch:

Because perhaps he was interested in the views and experiences of other members?

Which is kind of the point of being a member of forums in the first place....

twelvebears
20-03-2012, 21:44
Personally I'm a fan of good quality, glass optical cables. No issues with any possible input/output impedance matching and also gives complete electrical isolation.

But that's just me.

realysm42
20-03-2012, 22:00
I have recently bought myself a SBT which is fed directly into my amp (I do not have a DAC), and it sounds tremendous. Would I really get that much of an improvement by having a DAC in between?


.

I think it really depends on the quality of the dac you're thinking of adding to the equation and other factors (such as cables etc). Probably a case of suck it and see.

I asked myself how much better can 'a dac' sound than my old sound card and the answer is significantly; my old sound card was no slouch either.

magiccarpetride
20-03-2012, 22:45
I have recently bought myself a SBT which is fed directly into my amp (I do not have a DAC), and it sounds tremendous. Would I really get that much of an improvement by having a DAC in between?

Hard to say. Some people don't hear any difference between various digital transports feeding various DACs. Your best bet would be to get a DAC as a loaner, live with it for a few days, and decide if it's worth the extra cash. I'd recommend you get a used DAC (like, borrow it from a friend), because chances are it will already be sufficiently burned in.

Clothears
21-03-2012, 07:20
Hard to say. Some people don't hear any difference between various digital transports feeding various DACs. Your best bet would be to get a DAC as a loaner, live with it for a few days, and decide if it's worth the extra cash. I'd recommend you get a used DAC (like, borrow it from a friend), because chances are it will already be sufficiently burned in.


Thanks for that. Not much chance of loaning one from a friend, my mates wouldn't know what a DAC is, let alone own one!

I used to have a Beresford 7510 a few years ago, sold it when I went down the all-in-one route. Since going back to seperates I've lived happily DAC free.

This SBT is a real gem, I'm really loving the simplicity of it coupled with superb sound. Radio Paradise and Spotify have never sounded better, and no need to have the PC on all the time.

.

Covenant
21-03-2012, 07:46
I am firmly in the camp that says a decent dac makes a difference to a Touch but I was able to live without one for a few weeks when my dac was upgraded.
Have you noted that Radio Paradise is available at 198 Ogg Vorbis? The SQ is tremendous but you don't get track information atm.

Clothears
21-03-2012, 12:53
I am firmly in the camp that says a decent dac makes a difference to a Touch but I was able to live without one for a few weeks when my dac was upgraded.
Have you noted that Radio Paradise is available at 198 Ogg Vorbis? The SQ is tremendous but you don't get track information atm.


I know that when listening previously via my PC I was getting the 192 bit rate, yet via the SBT its showing as only 128. I'm a bit of a dunce in these matters, how do I go about getting the higher rate via SBT?

I love the fact that at the moment all the track information is displayed.It seems to vary between units. The Marantz M-CR603 and NA7004 shows this information, but I briefly had a TEAC internet tuner that played RP fine but didn't display that info. I really missed that aspect, particularly when something came on in the background that caught my ear.

One other thing. A "decent" DAC? What would you consider a rough ball park figure of cost for a DAC that would improve the SBT performance. There are so many DAC options out there at the moment its mind boggling.

Cheers

Covenant
21-03-2012, 15:27
Just copy this link into your favourites on the Squeezebox server:
http://stream-tx1.radioparadise.com:9000/rp_192.ogg
Be sure to title it so you know its the higher bitrate. Keep 128aac in your favourites as well, then when you hear a track you want more info about you can switch to the lower bitrate.
With regard to dac options the first question has got to be new or second hand. Really depends on what features you want-in my case, more than one input and the ability to use the dac as a preamp. There are plenty that come up on this forum, if you buy second hand and don't like it, you will be able to move it on and loose very little.

magiccarpetride
21-03-2012, 16:49
I am firmly in the camp that says a decent dac makes a difference to a Touch but I was able to live without one for a few weeks when my dac was upgraded.

I'm with you on that one (the same camp), but that's simply because both you and I are capable of (or, we think we are) hearing the differences between SBT analog into an amp and digital into a DAC. Many people simply can't hear those differences, so for them it wouldn't make any sense to spend extra on the DAC.