audio research ref 5 issue

[hifinutt]

some of you may know my ref 5 was lost after it was sent by the london dealer , it was second hand
i am still waiting for them to sort it out but here it is being sold as new so BEWARE

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-SUPERB-UNUSED-AND-BOXED-AUDIO-RESEARCH-REFERENCE-5-AMPLIFIER-/260980438517?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item3cc3a575f5&clk_rvr_id=324714458478
this is the seriel no i have in my possession which matches

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/DSCF0532.jpg

[sq225917]

That listing has gone but the item is up again, from some 'house clearance' place in Birmingham. (right on your doorstep)

Time to get the police involved, that is sale of stolen goods. Don't fuck about, put the biggest bid in and go and collect it with the Police in tow.

It looks like it has been stolen in transit.

[snuffbox]

Seems to have been removed

[hifinutt]

removed from ebay.

Phil, if that is as cut and dried as you make out surely the Police should be involved, it's nothing less than theft and fraud.


Surely it's time to name the dealer.

Interestingly there is another ref 5 for sale on ebay from some 'house clearance' seller.

thanks so much , ebay acted fast i only repored a couple of hours ago !!
yes its sadly as cut and dried as that . don`t think its a criminal case as it was paid out by the london dealers insurance and so i guess it is salvage

what is galling is that i have had to pay several thousand more and stll still do not have a replacement from the dealer

[sq225917]

There's no way in the world that an insurance company would dispose of returned, paid for, goods with a shitty little 'house clearance' vendor on ebay. Any insurance company who paid out for a 5k pre amp and then recovered it would sell it off through one of the better known 2nd hand audio vendors, not some shit hole book and bulb seller on ebay. In fact they'd be 100% likely to try and recover the money with the original vendor, your dealer.

Trust me, the insurance company do not know about this. Phone up the dealer on Monday and let them know, don't pull the advert, let it run, otherwise they will suss. You might get this back yet if the insurance company can prove ownership and then you pay them back.

[bogle111]

It is up again.
Here are the contact details

barry fisher
3 cossington rd
erdington
birmingham
West Midlands
b23 5el
United Kingdom Phone: 0121|3848328
Email: aladdins_attic@yahoo.co.uk

[realysm42]

Good luck with this.

[hifinutt]

thanks
ebay have put it back !

[hifinutt]

There's no way in the world that an insurance company would dispose of returned, paid for, goods with a shitty little 'house clearance' vendor on ebay. Any insurance company who paid out for a 5k pre amp and then recovered it would sell it off through one of the better known 2nd hand audio vendors, not some shit hole book and bulb seller on ebay. In fact they'd be 100% likely to try and recover the money with the original vendor, your dealer.

Trust me, the insurance company do not know about this. Phone up the dealer on Monday and let them know, don't pull the advert, let it run, otherwise they will suss. You might get this back yet if the insurance company can prove ownership and then you pay them back.

thanks will let the dealer know
its a 11k pre amp !

[SCIDB]

Hi Phil,

does sound like a job for the police.

[bogle111]

thanks will let the dealer know
its a 11k pre amp !

Exert taken from listing:

"Hi,i have for sale a superb unused and boxed Audio research reference 5 pre amplifier that comes with remote control,user manual and power lead.This pre amplifier is the ultimate in audio reproduction and this one is one of the finest in the Audio research range.This was a lost in transit item and is being offered for resale.All the logistics have been cleared up now with courier company and the main dealer who told me that it was originally lost in Sep 2011."

But does the insurance company know?

Something, somewhere sounds funny, as I would have thought that the Insurance company would offer it back to you, on return of the insurance value payout. Especially as you are still out of pocket.

I would clarify with the insurance company before the dealer and ask their proceedure/result with this. It is possible that this vendor has bought this legit at an insurance auction.

The seller is stating that it is new, unused when in fact it is used as you state. This alone contravenes Ebay rules as it is not new and falsely advertised. Whatever way, he would legally have receipt for it if legit.

If you have accepted the insurance payout as final settlement, and the item was found, and disposed of legally by the insurance company/dealer, it may be hard to retrieve it at a realistic price so you are not out of pocket.

Good luck

Regards
Pete

[Beechwoods]

Good luck sorting this out, you must be gutted. At the very least you should expect to have it returned and obviously pay back the insurance... sounds like this item is pretty irreplaceable, at least you've not been able to replace it, ergo...

[hifinutt]

thanks pete
yes i believe the vendor has taken great care in his accurate description and obviously bought it legally at an auction [ i had heard this before ]
hoever it is not new and this is where someone is telling porkies , i still have the screws from the lid you can see missing in one of the photos !

[hifinutt]

Good luck sorting this out, you must be gutted. At the very least you should expect to have it returned and obviously pay back the insurance... sounds like this item is pretty irreplaceable, at least you've not been able to replace it, ergo...

thanks , actually having spent about 5 months being bashed around in warehouses i would not like it back !! those valves are probably not very happy but i would like a replavcement from the dealer which hopefully one day will happen !!!

[Audioman]

Stop making excuses this is a police matter. Report it giving them all the information and let them persue the matter. If these criminals are caught it makes ebay a safer place for the rest of us. Looks like ebay are being bloody useless as usual in dealing with dodgy sellers. As sq says no way this came from insurance company. Unlikely it was ever recovered.

[bogle111]

thanks pete
yes i believe the vendor has taken great care in his accurate description and obviously bought it legally at an auction [ i had heard this before ]
hoever it is not new and this is where someone is telling porkies , i still have the screws from the lid you can see missing in one of the photos !

In that case, morally, there is a duty to inform the vendor that the item when sold will be third hand and not new other.

I would be pretty annoyed buying from this description to later find out the details. This is serious money, not pocket money.

If no change in the sellers description, I would advertise the manufacturing card and the screws for sale on Ebay while the other sale continues, clearly stating the history of this amp. That may force bid retractions.

If I were the unknowing final bidder, I would be glad you told me. As audioman/Paul states, I would get the police involved. You have nothing to lose.

Something though, still doesn't smell right, like the dealer or distributor not telling them it was secondhand.

Regards
Pete

[sq225917]

I've slept on this and I still cant believe the insurance disposed of it without offering it back to the dealer. It could have just come straight out of the couriers without the insurance co being informed.

[bogle111]

And again, it has ended!!!

[hifinutt]

yes latest is its been withdrawn and hopefully will be relisted as used . it is sadly no longer my property as sold by the insurance company and i am very much hoping one day the london dealer will sort out the replacement but sad its taking so long
the guys on here and the wam have been incredibly helpful, it is so reassuring when you are just a little guy in a big multimillion industry

[Audioman]

yes latest is its been withdrawn and hopefully will be relisted as used . it is sadly no longer my property as sold by the insurance company and i am very much hoping one day the london dealer will sort out the replacement but sad its taking so long
the guys on here and the wam have been incredibly helpful, it is so reassuring when you are just a little guy in a big multimillion industry

How do you know he got it from the insurer? This guy lists cheap tat so how has he aquired this? Makes no sense to me. As far as I can see it is stolen property even if that (suspicious) seller bought it in good faith.

[Reid Malenfant]

Wow :eek: Really sorry to hear about this, sounds like you have gone through a world of pain :rolleyes:

Insurance companies sell things off stupidly cheap, simply because they know that they can recoup any losses from those taking out insurance policies :steam:

Frankly they should have had the thing properly tested & then got a decent price for it on the secondhand market rather than it going to an auction of tat like most things do. Then we might not have to pay so much to insure things :steam:

I hope this all gets sorted one way or another & you end up with what you actually bought what looks like quite a while ago :(

[Marco]

+1... A bloody nightmare!

Marco.

[Audioman]

The listing is back up and the seller (who is honest) has given a full explaination of the situation. Frankly I find it difficult to believe what has happened to Phil who has been treated shabily by the insurance company and probably his dealer. If it were me I would have delivered and retrieved this personaly. I can't see how a courier is incapable of matching lost and found items to those reported missing and return them if undamaged.

I don't know how much compensation you got Phil (Hi-Fi Nut) but from pictures and description it might be well worth you bidding to get it back. You still have the remote and it looks fine cosmeticaly. Anyway deepest sympathies for your predicament. This is a most unacceptable situation and such practices only explain the high cost of insurance.

Listing here.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUPERB-AUDIO-RESEARCH-REFERENCE-5-AMPLIFIER-REMOTE-MANUAL-AND-BOX-/260982972687?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item3cc3cc210f

[hifinutt]

hi thanks
yes the ebay guy has explained it so well and i am so grateful for one of the forumites who took the trouble to intercede and wish the new owner every blessing , sadly i am no nearer to a replacement as have had no recent news from dealer who sold it me .

[DaveK]

How reliable is the dealer and is is possible he's in on the scam? Have you had anything official (in writing) from the insurers? What sort of company are they? Lots of questions I'd like answering if I was in your situation.

[Darren]

hi thanks
yes the ebay guy has explained it so well and i am so grateful for one of the forumites who took the trouble to intercede and wish the new owner every blessing , sadly i am no nearer to a replacement as have had no recent news from dealer who sold it me .

Please please take me right here. I am on your side. But I am sick of seeing this. Forget about your old pre amp. Its gone. Its now being sold on Ebay quite legally and so what?
Where's your replacement?What's the point in plastering this over every forum in the land and then not naming the dealer in question? He's hardly under any pressure is he? He would be so pissed off with hearing from me.
Have you spoken to Absolute Sounds about the way you are being treated as a loyal ARC customer? Are ARC aware of your wait and your situation?
Yes it concerns them. You have spent a huge amount on a single component.

You clearly have a few quid to spend ( and good on you) so spend a few more on good legal advice. Take no shit. Get some professionals on your side.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


How reliable is the dealer and is is possible he's in on the scam?

I don't think it's appropriate to speculate on the dealer's honesty or integrity without the necessary evidence, so please, let's leave that side of things right there - churz! :cool:

Marco.

[northwest]

Frankly I find it difficult to believe what has happened to Phil who has been treated shabily by the insurance company

Really? Show me someone who HASN'T been treated "shabbily" by their insurance company. Hands up those of you whose premium renewal went down this year?
Why do you find this difficult to believe, frankly I find myself struggling with the fact that you find it 'difficult to believe'.
Sorry, but to be honest I find myself agreeing with Darren here but without speculating on peoples (other than insurance companies) integrity.

[Darren]

Really? Show me someone who HASN'T been treated "shabbily" by their insurance company. Hands up those of you whose premium renewal went down this year?
Why do you find this difficult to believe, frankly I find myself struggling with the fact that you find it 'difficult to believe'.
Sorry, but to be honest I find myself agreeing with Darren here but without speculating on peoples (other than insurance companies) integrity.

Utterly correct. My own insurers have tried to scew me on more than one occasion. I could a tale unfold.....
Sadly, you gotta fight. I'm a peace loving guy but if people get to thinking you've a bit of wool on your back you are screwed.

[DaveK]

Hi Dave,



I don't think it's appropriate to speculate on the dealer's honesty or integrity without the necessary evidence, so please, let's leave that side of things right there - churz! :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,
You're the arbiter on such matters so I have no problem with what you say but I have skim-read this thread and can find no mention of the dealer that enables identification - forgive me if I'm wrong. This dealer has taken 5 months so far and the customer is still left in the lurch. Hardly behaviour that merits anonimity IMHO.
Dave.

[Marco]

Sure, Dave, I share your sentiments, in that respect. However, to talk of "scams", at this stage, I feel is somewhat inappropriate :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

hi thanks
yes the ebay guy has explained it so well and i am so grateful for one of the forumites who took the trouble to intercede and wish the new owner every blessing , sadly i am no nearer to a replacement as have had no recent news from dealer who sold it me .

Phil. Can you clarify this situation. I understand the dealer received compensation and you have paid him more to aquire a new model ? If this is the case why weren't you paid the money as it is your loss ? Also why are you waiting as this is a current model I believe.

Firstly I suggest contacting Absolute Sounds to ascertain if your amp is on order. If this is not the case you should persue the dealer for the compensation and any other moneys paid. He clearly is untrustworthy, incompetent or both. Frankly as been said here many times most so called high end dealers don't deserve to be in business due to the way they treat customers.

I would suggest the best course of action is to gather all the evidence and persue the matter through your local small claims court. A threat of legal action should kick start the dealer. Frankly if you are getting nowhere naming and shaming or threat thereoff on this forum is justified.

BTW. Marco stop trying to defend crap dealers. This one surely falls into that catagory scam or no scam. Frankly it is helpfull to list poor service here. I know there is the possibility of legal action but my attitude would be that it is up to them to prove they are competent and honest. Facts in this case speak for themselves.

Paul.

[hifinutt]

yes you can read more here

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?67771-audio-research-ref-5-scam

but essentially i am awaiting the dealer to supply the replacement but cannot get much joy as the manager is on holiday , one has taken many steps including emailing them very regularly currently with no reply as the manager is on holiday, travelling personally several hours to see the importers representative, contacting the owner of the importer to get something moving, taking legal advice, raising threads on forums to establish the legal retail position which we have, contacing the chief executive of the courier company [who were very helpful and rang me back very promptly] , discussing the matter with other knowledgable hi fi dealers on retail law .... and so it goes on, !

oh and one can`t use the small claims court as the amp is 12 k and the smc limit is 5k i beleive

[hifinutt]

Please please take me right here. I am on your side. But I am sick of seeing this. Forget about your old pre amp. Its gone. Its now being sold on Ebay quite legally and so what?
Where's your replacement?What's the point in plastering this over every forum in the land and then not naming the dealer in question? He's hardly under any pressure is he? He would be so pissed off with hearing from me.
Have you spoken to Absolute Sounds about the way you are being treated as a loyal ARC customer? Are ARC aware of your wait and your situation?
Yes it concerns them. You have spent a huge amount on a single component.

You clearly have a few quid to spend ( and good on you) so spend a few more on good legal advice. Take no shit. Get some professionals on your side.

thanks darren
have taken legal advice and have been in touch with the importers who have been very helpful but still waiting for the dealer, the amp was lost last november so rapidly losing patience and i do appreciate the forums running these threads as initially wanted to alert the possible purchasers of an ebay `scam` but this has now been rectified and its a legit auction

[bogle111]

"If someone owes you at least £750 that they can’t repay, you could ask the court to make them bankrupt to recover the debt. There are conditions and costs you have to meet first."

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=debt%20retrieval%20bankruptcy&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.direct.gov.uk%2Fen%2FMoneyTax AndBenefits%2FManagingDebt%2FCourtClaimsAndBankrup tcy%2FDG_187370&ei=GC1oT7jsJJL98QPY0oD3CA&usg=AFQjCNFGCzOeU429qHW88VvYGY8PjCYPEA

I am just about to do it to someone for £2700 for non payment. Not the sort of money you are talking about, but if they know they owe the money and the court may find against them, they soon pay up.

I am also going after our ex-electricity supplier (BES Ltd.) at work. I have let them dig their own grave with my patience; now to act.

Get good legal advice, it pays and stops people thinking you are a wally. Sympathy for your predicament yes, but not for inactivity. Unless you want to remain friendly with them, that is another case. Personally, my friendships don't cost a bean, and if they do, I dump them.

I always give more than I take, but one pushed, I always give more than I take!!!

Oh, and charge the legal advice and all expenses, including handkerchiefs and interest to their bill. You are entitled.:stalks:

Regards
Pete

[Audioman]

Phil.

I am going to be brutily honest. You are being a wally. To avoid more hastle.

1. Talk to the dealer - try and agree refund of your money + insurance now !!!!

2. Bid on auction to buy amp back. If you can't get it for near to it's true value order another from a different dealer or buy something else. Nothing wrong with your amp as far as seller's description and photos.

That makes common sense to me anyway.

Paul.

[DaveK]

+1 from me, FWIW.
Dave.

[Marco]

BTW. Marco stop trying to defend crap dealers... This one surely falls into that catagory scam or no scam.


Exactly, Paul, we don't *know* either way. Therefore, in the absence of the necessary proof to call it a scam, quite simply, it cannot be referred to as such. I'm not defending anyone; merely not wishing to host potentially libellous accusations of "scams", when there isn't sufficient evidence to back them up. This is, however, not to condone the behaviour of the dealer in question.

It's not you, though, who would be gambling with the legal repercussions of potentially libellous accusations. Therefore, this aspect of the discussion is now over, and so not up for further debate. I trust that I've made myself clear! I wish Phil every success in resolving this unfortunate situation to his satisfaction, as soon as possible, and in that respect, please keep us updated accordingly :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

Marco.

The OP (Phil the victim) used the word Scam. It clearly isn't a scam but the actions of the dealer mainly and possibly insurance company are questionable. I think Phil is his own worst enemy in this. Would you hand over thousands extra for a new repalcement for a used item? Again what sort of dealer asks for money before your piece of kit is delivered? A case of questionable business practice and likely incompetence. Facts are established and it is to everybody's benefit to know the bad dealers. If this is a Midlands dealer I want to know so as to avoid them !

Paul.

[Marco]

Fine, I just don't want anyone using the word "scam", unless it is entirely justified. Now that's it, as far as that subject is concerned. Any further remarks of that nature will be deleted without further warning.

Now back to the main thrust of the discussion :)

Marco.

[Barry]

If you read the posts on HFWW carefully, the name of the dealer is hinted at.

When a satisfactory conclusion is reached, in the sense that Phil is in full possesion of a new amp, then should he wish to name the dealer that is entirely his perogative.

Until such time as Phil is in receipt of his new amp, it would be imprudent and possibly libelous to name the dealer at this time.

[Audioman]

If you read the posts on HFWW carefully, the name of the dealer is hinted at.

When a satisfactory conclusion is reached, in the sense that Phil is in full possesion of a new amp, then should he wish to name the dealer that is entirely his perogative.

Until such time as Phil is in receipt of his new amp, it would be imprudent and possibly libelous to name the dealer at this time.

If it were libelous every consumer TV programme would be sued out of existence. Anyway my advice to Phil is to get his money back and try and 'win' his original amp back. Impartialy commenting on disputes as long as we keep to the facts while naming those involved is perfectly legal. Just add the word 'aledgedly'.

Coincidentaly obviously a certain West London dealer is reopening in April.

[hifinutt]

yes always worried about libel , the main thread was to highlight the alleged fraud of the ebayer selling as new but that has bee corrected .

some wonderful forumites have been interceding behind the scenes and we may have a resolution to this rather stressful episode and the last post was very accurate re the dealer

[Barry]

Hello Phil,

I have been following your plight, both on this forum as well as on the Wam.

The likelyhood of a resolution to your difficulties is the best news I have read today. All the more reason not to annoy "the dealer" at this juncture. When all is done and dusted, it would be useful to know exactly who the dealer was.

If it is who I think it is, I have to say that I have experienced one of the worse demonstrations by a dealer there, by staff who clearly had never heard live music and didn't know what they were talking about!

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Regards

[hifinutt]

well still looking good and as a gesture of goodwill they are upgrading the amp to the latest se version which is very good of them
the dealer principal himself is coming to personally deliver and thats so good and i hope we can all learn something from this difficult episode and wish the new premises every success when they finally open again for business

[indus]

Hi Phil

Glad to hear the situation is finally going to be sorted.

May I ask the amp that you will get upgraded to se spec,is that a new amp or the one being advertised on ebay.

All the best

[hifinutt]

no the dealer is kindly supplying a brand new se version , i have had to pay extra for this but still good of them
the one on ebay is at 4500 now which is progressing well

[Darren]

Sorry: I think I'm being thick here. How is it good of them if you're had to pay extra for the upgrade?

[Audioman]

no the dealer is kindly supplying a brand new se version , i have had to pay extra for this but still good of them
the one on ebay is at 4500 now which is progressing well

So how much extra is the new one over the value of the one that went missing? It's only good of them if it's a free upgrade surely.

[hifinutt]

Sorry: I think I'm being thick here. How is it good of them if you're had to pay extra for the upgrade?

well originally they were just going to give me a new ref 5 standard after i paid an extra 2 k but have now decided to make it an se version at no extra cost . some compensation for the months of waiting and expense incurred in buying and selling replacements at a loss and courier fees

[Audioman]

well originally they were just going to give me a new ref 5 standard after i paid an extra 2 k but have now decided to make it an se version at no extra cost . some compensation for the months of waiting and expense incurred in buying and selling replacements at a loss and courier fees

Well I hope it's significantly better than the one you lost. It's not an altogether satisfactory outcome when you end up spending £2K you wouldn't otherwise have spent. Anyway best of luck in coming to an acceptable solution.

Paul.

[hifinutt]

thanks paul
and yes indeed the ref 5 is in position with the logans , review to follow at some time

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/P1000797.jpg


and i know they are too close to the wall .....but they still sound fab !

[Barry]

thanks paul
and yes indeed the ref 5 is in position with the logans , review to follow at some time

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/P1000797.jpg


and i know they are too close to the wall .....but they still sound fab !

I always hoped there would be a satisfactory conclusion to the debacle. And it would seem there has been - what a relief!

:mex:

[Spectral Morn]

I always hoped there would be a satisfactory conclusion to the debacle. And it would seem there has been - what a relief!

:mex:

+1

I have to say though, based on many years in retail both brown goods trade and specialist audio (not now bar writing about it) that the way you were treated was awful, and it is very sad state of affairs that the power of forums had to be brought to bear to get you what should have been sorted out in days not months.


Regards D S D L

[Wakefield Turntables]

Glad to hear things got resolved, how's the new upgrades sounding?

[hifinutt]

yes sounding good , i would have loved to have compared the tom evans vibe/pulse i had to sell rapidly to raise the moola for this replacement . that was a very special pre and superb value , when i look at this pre and think i cost 12 k new i feel rather quesy !!!!!!

[Marco]

Excellent news, Phil - shows that the good guys always win in the end - enjoy! :)

Marco.

[hifinutt]

thanks marco