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combwork
28-12-2008, 13:24
Hi,

My daughters partner brought his LG flat screen LCD digital television over at Christmas for my youngest daughter to play her games on.

It's fine on games, but what I've noticed on this set and others on display in shops is the picture looks harsh. Edges look over sharp, most noticeable on vertical white lines with what looks like a fuzzy echo to the right; feint but noticeable. Nearest equivalent on a 'normal' television would be to manually adjust the tuner close to instability, giving an over sharp picture. WOW when first watched, unpleasant after 10 minutes.

The set brought round could perhaps be set up wrong, but surely shop display sets wouldn't all be like this, unless maybe they're all cranked up to compete with shop lighting? In the old days, some shops had special low light rooms in which to demonstrate colour television to potential buyers.

Is digital TV all it's cracked up to be, or is there an element of "The Kings New Clothes" about it all?

Dave Cawley
28-12-2008, 13:41
What size is it? What is the actual pixel count?

Dave

combwork
28-12-2008, 15:24
What size is it? What is the actual pixel count?

Dave


Hi Dave,

Size is 32". As to pixel count, all I know is the owner says it's "1280 by 720". I may have misheard but he's just gone out can't ask him again.

Jim.

Dave Cawley
28-12-2008, 16:13
Hi Jim

OK, that's "1280x720" as opposed to 1920x1080 that you see on demo in the shops. The difference is 2.25 more pixels. But it also depends on how you feed it and set it up. Turn off any 'dynamic' effects, spend 30 minutes and it will be better anyway?

Regards

Dave

Beechwoods
28-12-2008, 16:20
I have a Toshiba 32" REGZA LCD and it's great. Very natural looking picture on a digital signal, and a good picture on analogue. You can definitely tweak the picture to increase edge definition, 'sharpness', compression NR, and a whole bunch of other things. It worked well out of the box though.

Was your assessment of quality based upon watching a good source, or the input from the games console? I know that on mine, there is a setting that seems to 'intelligently' sharpen graphics - onscreen text etc - which can be excessive and distracting.

It's possible that some are factory preset to an overly sharp presentation since this is one of the things that at first beguiling in a digital set. Like you say they had a WOW in the first few minutes, and only became wearing after a while.

Just my thoughts...

Togil
28-12-2008, 16:43
First reduce " Contrast " to 50% or less , then adjust brightness

combwork
28-12-2008, 16:44
Thanks Dave,

Sooner or later my 24 year old Sony CTV 25 is going to expire; in due course I'll probably go for a digital TV. That pixel count '1280 by 720'. It seems the higher the numbers, the more expensive the set so would I be right that the pixel count is dependent on the way the television is made; not on the signal received?

One final question please Dave. If a set is labeled "HD Ready", does this mean that once it's fully available, the set will receive HD signals in full HD, or would I need some kind of 'add on' for full HD?

When I was a child I remember the start of public colour broadcasting in the U.K. ( I also remember my Dad taking us all to the Radio Show in Olympia in the late 1950's, and seeing in a darkened room a "colour television" showing a red rose) and also remember an article about two 'inventors' who claimed they'd made a converter to allow existing black and white sets to display a colour picture. I didn't understand how this was possible; now I guess they were trying to sell some kind of Field Sequential system.

I wonder. In a few years time, will there be enthusiasts claiming that properly set up, an old 625 line colour set complete with cathode ray tube looks better than digital TV?

Togil
28-12-2008, 17:11
New LCD technologies will give much better color reproduction and contrast than CRTs were ever capable of. Especially red colour differentiation is a problem on CRT TVs.
Older films can look quite horrible on a digital TV, but HD from a studio camera is superb. Films transferred to HD have that slight grain, just like the hiss in audio when you listen to an analogue recording.

Dave Cawley
28-12-2008, 17:40
Any LCD or Plasma can only ever display the number of pixels it was made with, never any more.

'HD Ready', means it will display 'HD'. 'Full HD' is over twice the resolution. You are always limited to the resolution of the TV. So feed a 'HD' set with 'Full HD', and you don't get 'Full HD', only 'HD'.

Manufactures are dumping 'HD' sets as fast as they can. I was in Miami two weeks ago, I was amazed at the 'Full HD' sets and their prices.

Dave

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 18:31
Hi Guys

Firstly Dave is correct about the pixel count. In order to see full HD which is a 1080p image you will need a 42/43 inch and bigger set. These are more expensive. I would say that Panasonic and Pioneer offer the best picture ( both Plasma) Bigger LCD panels are not as good as the smaller ones, I would not go above a 32 inch.

I would also say that while LCD technology has improved a Plasma screen will give better pictures with digital Tv picture. However analogue pictures are very poor on big screen flat Panel TV's regardless of panel type. DVD, Sky and any HD source will give brilliant pictures on any Flat Panel TV, with HD giving the best. While the gap between Plasma and LCD narrows I still feel Plasma has the edge.

Tube TV (CRT)do still give the best picture on all sources except HD (they are not compatible. There were a few CRT tV's in the states which were notably a set from LOEWE). Picture quality is excellent up until 37 inch Flat CRT. These struggle to get the electrons scanned well to the edges of the screen so blacks along the edges are not as good. It was easier to get good results with curved sets. In saying that until a lot more HD content is available I will be sticking with my 37 in CRT TV. Picture is smoother and better in terms of detail and digital artefact's are reduced. I for one was very disapointed when Toshibas SED proposition failed to get of the ground properly. A flat panel made up of miniature CRT. WOW that would have been amazing. Some were made but only in large screen sizes. However the technology is not dead. We shall see.

Regards DSDL ---- Neil

Mike
28-12-2008, 19:11
Hi Guys

Firstly Dave is correct about the pixel count. In order to see full HD which is a 1080p image you will need a 42/43 inch and bigger set.

Ah... not so!

Full HD can be had in 37". I've got one. :)

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 20:46
Hi Mike

What make is it ? I always believed that it was impossible to display 1080 p full Hd resolution on that size of screen. Now it was also not possible on 42 inch either until recently. In the past you needed a 50 inch or a projector.

Very interesting as my room size will not allow anything bigger than a 37 inch set Flat panel or otherwise.

What Model is it too, please ?

Regards D S D L ----- Neil :)

Primalsea
28-12-2008, 20:52
There are other factors that effect LCD picture quality.

On digital TV It seems to me that some programs are transmitted at a lower quality. Thos shows up as harsh images with lots of jaggies on fast moving objects.

Also processing power of the TV. Some electronics in some LCD TV's are more equal than others.

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 21:10
I agree the bit rate is very important but I still feel that compared to ( A good ) Plasma, LCD still does Not have the best blacks, natural colours ( Skin tone is particularly bad IMHO ) plus you have movement issues and blocking effects with broad sweeps of colour, Blue water, green grass etc. Football matches are particularly bad too, small objects moving on a large similar colour back ground. The gap is narrowing but I still prefer a Panasonic or Pioneer Plasmas. The issues are not as pronounced with Hd sources on any flat panel IMHO. But still Plasma has it still.

However IMHO you can't beat a good CRT tv (Loewe, Sony FQ range, Panasonic, Acuity(later models not earlier has it on all digital and analogue sources. I used to work in a TV shop about 6 years ago, so I have seen the best and worst of what CRT had to offer. Some of the big Toshiba tv's were also very good. The later Picture frame sets were very good and with Dolby digital surround and not as some after thought, these were really good.

I will concede that HD content levels the playing field a bit with flat panel technology but on anything else Tube has it by a country mile IMHO of course.

Tube/CRT screens use less electricity too. If that is not so now, then that change is only very recent. IME Plasmas and LCD are electricity suckers.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:10
Hi Mike

What make is it ? I always believed that it was impossible to display 1080 p full Hd resolution on that size of screen. Now it was also not possible on 42 inch either until recently. In the past you needed a 50 inch or a projector.

Very interesting as my room size will not allow anything bigger than a 37 inch set Flat panel or otherwise.

What Model is it too, please ?

Regards D S D L ----- Neil :)

Hi Neil,

Check out the Toshiba Regza X series! ;)

It's particularly good with 1080P 24fps Blu-ray.

http://www.hdtvorg.co.uk/reviews/lcd/toshiba_37x3030d.htm

Cheers...

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:17
Oh, I should say that 'out of the box' the picture is completely over the top. Just about everything is set on max like many others, presumably to stand out in the showroom. Very uncomfortable after a short time, but with a little tweaking it looks very good on standard resolution, HD is stunning though! :)

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 21:21
Yes Toshiba crt sets used to come out of the box with contrast and brightness set to the max and the colour well up as well. However I don't think Toshiba off today is quite the company they used to be 6 years ago. I loved the quality and the Dolby Digital sound their tube tv's had. Those where the days. I still have a Toshiba 32 Zp 18 100htz, Dolby Digital flat screen in the bedroom, brilliant.

I thought you had maybe,got one of the new 37 inch Panasonic Plasmas.

Regards D S D L ----- Neil :)

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:27
For sure there are 'better' TV's available, but hey, I'm not made of money and at the end of the day it's only a telly! ;)

Cheers...

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:32
If anyone else is looking for this sort of thing they might find THIS (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/selector.php) a helpful guide.

Cheers...

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 21:32
Hi Mike

No insult intended, I was just thinking back to my days in the tv trade ( mostly unhappy ) but the technology was fun.

regards D S DL ---- Neil :)

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:35
No insult intended

Absolutely none taken. Whatsoever! :)

Beechwoods
28-12-2008, 21:37
I looked at a lot of TV's when I got mine 3 or 4 years ago and the Toshiba Regza series had the most natural looking picture. Not long after I got mine, my Dad, who'd worked 25 years in the BBC on video post-production and lighting, got at 27" one, as replacement for his 20 year old B&O CRT... with proper setup he figured it had the best pic for the price - they are very good value :)

Dave Cawley
28-12-2008, 21:41
In fact you can get 'Full HD' at 1980x1080 on a 32" and much better than a CRT it is too!

Dave

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 21:42
I would love a B&O 32 inch flat panel crt tv A beovision 3 crt

or a Loewe 32 inch ( I am getting old and can't remember the model ), it was their top of the range. Maybe an Aventos ?

We will agree to differ but I still prefer CRT. Lets be clear, I am not talking about HD but standard def only. I prefer tube sets for this.

Regards D S DL----- Neil :)

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:43
In fact you can get 'Full HD' at 1980x1080 on a 32"

I thought you could. :)

But I didn't bother looking for that screen size. :smoking:

Mike
28-12-2008, 21:45
We will agree to differ but I still prefer CRT.

I don't think you can beat a CRT for SD off-air transmission's ATM.

Beechwoods
28-12-2008, 21:55
+1 :)

I'd still have one if it weren't for lack of space...

Togil
28-12-2008, 22:24
Agreed on the disadvantages of current LCDs mentioned above but wait for the OLED technology to mature.

Mike
28-12-2008, 22:33
Nice idea Hans, but my old telly was knackered, it had to be replaced. ;)

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
29-12-2008, 10:46
Hi All

The OLED tv's should be fantastic when they, as Togil says 'mature' but what about the Carbon Nanotube tv's thats are being developed. A recent conversation with a mate of mine who has seen some of the early versions has said they should easily beat the currrent technology.

Having said that there is always something newer, better, faster just over the horizon. No matter what you are looking to buy, Washing Machines, Audio gear, TV's, PC's all fall in to the same catagory

Andy - SDDW

Ali Tait
29-12-2008, 15:27
Carbon nanotube? Whassat allabout then?

Filterlab
29-12-2008, 15:41
Carbon nanotube? Whassat allabout then?

Have a read of this page. (http://thefutureofthings.com/news/5646/carbon-nano-tube-color-a4-e-paper.html)

Prince of Darkness
09-01-2009, 12:05
and also remember an article about two 'inventors' who claimed they'd made a converter to allow existing black and white sets to display a colour picture.
Not sure if this is the same thing, but I do remember seeing something about a screen that could be placed in front of a black and white set. This had a blue band at the top and a green one at the bottom, thus giving blue sky and green grass:lolsign:. Of course this effect was in place whatever the picture showed.:doh:
I can't really imagine anything producing a true colour picture, as the CRT could only output shades of grey.:scratch:

Filterlab
09-01-2009, 12:41
...but I do remember seeing something about a screen that could be placed in front of a black and white set. This had a blue band at the top and a green one at the bottom, thus giving blue sky and green grass...

Hehehehe, my great grandfather bought one of those and passed it on to my grandfather. He showed me one evening when I was very young and apparently I laughed for about half an hour. As I was born in '76 at that young age I didn't even know what a black & white TV was. :)

Beechwoods
09-01-2009, 22:01
Only slightly related, but this stuff impressed me a lot when I read about what they were doing recently. Recovering colour from black and white film archives of programmes originally shot in colour. This isn't 'colourising' old films, which is basically a CGI affect, this is reverse-engineering the colour signal off a black and white copy. It's stuff like this that makes me wish I was math's whizz and computer programmer polymath :)

http://colour-recovery.wikispaces.com/Full+gamut+colour+recovery

theophile
01-02-2009, 08:00
I've just recently installed an LG CRT,model # 32FS2ANB.

http://au.lge.com/products/model/detail/tv_superslimtv__32fs2anb.jhtml#

It is rated to be able to convey 1080i.

I had read some criticism of what was termed 'clayface',on the 'net with this CTR.However by manipulating the settings on both my Sony BDP SE1 Blu-Ray player(the adjustments to the Sony were crucial at arriving at a solution to the problem)and the LG,I have been able to arrive at very satisfactory skin tones.

The LG is now giving me a very detailed picture from DVD and Blu-Ray discs.

combwork
02-02-2009, 16:17
Not sure if this is the same thing, but I do remember seeing something about a screen that could be placed in front of a black and white set. This had a blue band at the top and a green one at the bottom, thus giving blue sky and green grass:lolsign:. Of course this effect was in place whatever the picture showed.:doh:
I can't really imagine anything producing a true colour picture, as the CRT could only output shades of grey.:scratch:



I can't really imagine anything producing a true colour picture, as the CRT could only output shades of grey.:

I think that's pretty much how Field Sequential worked. Pioneered by RCA in the States, the first ones to be sold commercially had a revolving wheel in front of a high brightness b&w projection tube. The wheel had red, green and blue segments in it. It revolved in sync with a similar wheel set in front of the lens on a b&w TV camera. As long as the wheels kept in sync, you got a rapid series of single colour pictures that our persistence of vision assembled into a full colour picture.

I think the basic problem was lack of compatibility; field sequential transmissions could not be displayed on existing b&w sets, neither would the RCA sets display standard b&w transmissions. Dual standard sets were designed, but I'm not sure if they were marketed. Once NTSC came along, most of the RCA sets were recalled or simply scrapped.

The format wasn't quite dead; NASA used miniature Field Sequential cameras for their colour transmissions from the moon:smoking:

combwork
03-02-2009, 20:59
Oops! I think the above might make more sense if RCA is changed to CBS. Not sure though; I thought RCA was behind mechanical scanning, but aparently not.

Beechwoods
04-02-2009, 07:23
The format wasn't quite dead; NASA used miniature Field Sequential cameras for their colour transmissions from the moon:smoking:

I never knew that... time for some research I think. Sounds very interesting...

theophile
04-02-2009, 07:41
The format wasn't [I]quite dead; NASA used miniature Field Sequential cameras for their colour transmissions from the moon:smoking:


Oh,the transmissions from the studio in the US.........:smoking: