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Wakefield Turntables
13-03-2012, 20:20
I hope this dosent sound too dumb. Can electromagnetic interference be introduced into your interconnects if they touch a radiator? Ive moved my 1210 away from the radiator and seperated all the various cables so that there not touching and I swear to God things are sounding much clearer :scratch:

Effem
14-03-2012, 10:41
Untangling mains cables and signal carrier cables has been a source of the 'improvement' more likely :eyebrows:

Marco
14-03-2012, 10:55
Frank's right, *but* also that big lump of ferrous iron that is your radiator, will be generating a small magnetic field (as it's made from ferrrous metals), which would've been causing interference (likely to the cartridge on your T/T), if the deck was really close to the radiator.

Therefore the cumulative effect of both things above is likely the reason why you can hear a genuine sonic improvement :)

If you really want to get geeky, remove as many ferrous (magnetic) metals from your listening room as is physically possible and practical, and then see what happens...

Listen to a well known piece of music first with your room as it is, then remove the bits mentioned, and listen again. The result will likely freak you out! ;)

Marco.

DaveK
14-03-2012, 11:08
Frank's right, *but* also that big lump of ferrous iron that is your radiator, .........
Marco.
Sorry to be a nit picker but metallurgy was my 'thing' - what other sort of iron is there? :lol: ;) :ner: .
Dave.

Marco
14-03-2012, 11:35
Lol - well it'll be a ferrous metal of some description, unless it's a stainless steel radiator. Which one is then, metal-boy? :eyebrows:

Marco.

DaveK
14-03-2012, 11:46
Oh dear Marco :rolleyes: :scratch:
Ferrous literally means 'containing Iron' so common metals (those in daily use in the language) are loosely referred to as being ferrous or non-ferrous. So all irons and steels are ferrous and brasses, tins, solders, copper zinc, aluminium etc are non-ferrous (generally, ;) ) It starts to get a bit confusing when the things that beans and soups are put in (called tins) are mainly steel and what Ozzies call 'tinnies' are mainly aluminium.
There, I hope that's much clearer now!! :lol: :lol: :lol: .
Dave.

Marco
14-03-2012, 11:54
Okies, what I'm basically saying is that the metal the radiator will be made from will be magnetic, yes? I.E if you put a magnet onto it, it will stick? :)

Anything like that in the same room as your hi-fi system is bad, sonically. I realise of course that for practical reasons it's not always possible to remove items like those, but sometimes you can remove some of them, and IME, doing so is always sonically beneficial.

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
14-03-2012, 20:16
If you really want to get geeky, remove as many ferrous (magnetic) metals from your listening room as is physically possible and practical, and then see what happens...


Marco.

Believe me or not I have done this to the 1210. I've even removed all the screws and washers holding the deck together. I've now got plastic screws and washers which do the job just as well. They are also non resonant and non-magnetic meaning no RFI or EMI being leaked into the deck. Yes i'm that Geeky :D

snuffbox
14-03-2012, 20:25
If you really want to get geeky, remove as many ferrous (magnetic) metals from your listening room as is physically possible and practical, and then see what happens...



Marco.

Hmmm...........I suffer from haemochromatosis(iron poisoning basically).
That'll explain why the system sounds better from the kitchen:doh:

DaveK
14-03-2012, 20:25
Believe me or not I have done this to the 1210. I've even removed all the screws and washers holding the deck together. I've now got plastic screws and washers which do the job just as well. They are also non resonant and non-magnetic meaning no RFI or EMI being leaked into the deck. Yes i'm that Geeky :D

And how would you describe the effect on SQ?

DaveK
14-03-2012, 20:58
If you really want to get geeky, remove as many ferrous (magnetic) metals from your listening room as is physically possible and practical, and then see what happens...

Marco.

Don't some racks and speaker stands have supports made of or containing ferrous material, even if it's only the screws/bolts that hold everything together?
BTW, just because it is ferrous does not necessarily make it magnetic - for instance some stainless steels will be non-magnetic, even though they may contain around 70% iron. So is it the presence of iron that is the problem or the fact that it is magnetic? - the two things do not always go hand in hand - ain't metallurgy fun? :lol:

Wakefield Turntables
14-03-2012, 21:12
And how would you describe the effect on SQ?

SQ? Sound quality??

DaveK
14-03-2012, 21:27
SQ? Sound quality??

Yes, exactly - did you notice any difference?
Dave.

Wakefield Turntables
14-03-2012, 22:31
Very hard to tell as I have a tendency to do several tweeks at the same time. I also bonded the chasis and sub-chasis together, re-optimised the on/off switch PCB and rewired it with pure silver and teflon coating! It'll take a week or two before I can tell :(

DaveK
14-03-2012, 22:44
Very hard to tell as I have a tendency to do several tweeks at the same time. I also bonded the chasis and sub-chasis together, re-optimised the on/off switch PCB and rewired it with pure silver and teflon coating! It'll take a week or two before I can tell :(

Whoa!! You did all that and can't tell if there's been any improvement? - that does beg a lot of questions. And how are you going to be able to tell in a week or two - and if you can tell in a week or two, to which of the above will you attribute the change?
Having said all that, I bonded chassis and sub-chassis together and can't say I noticed any difference - but when I rewired from cartridge to pre-amp with single lengths of pure silver wire I certainly noticed the improvement.
Good luck with it all - I hope all the hard work is justified by the result :) .

Wakefield Turntables
15-03-2012, 19:28
Whoa!! You did all that and can't tell if there's been any improvement? - that does beg a lot of questions. And how are you going to be able to tell in a week or two - and if you can tell in a week or two, to which of the above will you attribute the change?
Having said all that, I bonded chassis and sub-chassis together and can't say I noticed any difference - but when I rewired from cartridge to pre-amp with single lengths of pure silver wire I certainly noticed the improvement.
Good luck with it all - I hope all the hard work is justified by the result :) .


I've had a lot on this week so listening to vinyl has had to take a low priority this week, hence needing another week to recover from the stupid work load that i have at this moment in time.

What did you bond your sub-chasis with. Martin T seems to think that silicone is the way forward. I've also got a rewired V with a similar setup to yourself with a continual loom over teflon coated silver, yep this does make a big difference:eyebrows:

DaveK
15-03-2012, 19:50
What did you bond your sub-chasis with. Martin T seems to think that silicone is the way forward.

No disrespect to Martin T, I'll bow to his superior knowledge on these matters any day, but my logic was that silicone might have too much 'bounce' (for want of a better word :) ) in it so I went for a very thin layer of the contact adhesive on both faces (Evostick sort of thing) that allows a bit of repositioning and loaded it all over to ensure minimum gap, tightest bond and maximum rigidity (to my way of thinking anyway :lol: ) - seems to work well enough for me.

Cheers,
Dave.

sq225917
15-03-2012, 20:08
I'm intrigued where we think the magnetism in a radiator might be coming from. It's not bloody great coil passing current you know, and it certainly isn't going to have any magnetism of its own, certainly no more than the Earth's core.

YNWaN
15-03-2012, 20:12
Surely there should be a prize for the first person to successfully do an A, B demo with and without radiator.
----/--
I can assure you that what you use to bond ones chassis together makes a significant difference.

Wakefield Turntables
15-03-2012, 20:31
I'm intrigued where we think the magnetism in a radiator might be coming from. It's not bloody great coil passing current you know, and it certainly isn't going to have any magnetism of its own, certainly no more than the Earth's core.

WRONG! The one sitting at the back of my 1210 is magnetic, I have a ruddy great big magnet stuck to it :lol: I'm just going through a process of trying to shield my deck. The 1210 plinth and sub-chasis is made from aluminium which does a great job of shielding the PCB but other components such as my MC cartridge only sit several inches away from the radiator and as such arn't so well protected. :(

Wakefield Turntables
15-03-2012, 20:32
I can assure you that what you use to bond ones chassis together makes a significant difference.

Care to expand? What's your solution? :eyebrows:

Reid Malenfant
15-03-2012, 20:36
I can't see a radiator being a problem either :scratch:

However, I can see an advantage in running a hifi inside of a Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) :)

Even better if the mains feeding the room was screened & filtered or regenerated :eyebrows:

Wakefield Turntables
15-03-2012, 20:39
I can't see a radiator being a problem either :scratch:

However, I can see an advantage in running a hifi inside of a Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) :)

Even better if the mains feeding the room was screened & filtered or regenerated :eyebrows:


OK, perhaps the radiator idea might be going a tad too far. The faraday cage is never going to happen. My mains supply is screened and filtered, altough I'd like to try a regenerator at some point. :cool:

Reid Malenfant
15-03-2012, 20:44
When I worked at Ferrus Power (SMPS manufacturer) they built a test room & installed a Faraday Cage... All you need is a good load of aluminium foil to cover all the walls, making sure that each sheet is in contact with the next... It needs to be earthed, I reckon it could be done for about £50 - £100 if & when you decide to redecorate...

Then wallpaper over it & paint or whatever :D

DaveK
15-03-2012, 21:02
I can assure you that what you use to bond ones chassis together makes a significant difference.

C'mon then, don't be a tease ;) - share your knowledge - a bit late for me but it might help others :) .
TIA,
Dave.

realysm42
15-03-2012, 21:09
C'mon then, don't be a tease ;) - share your knowledge - a bit late for me but it might help others :) .
TIA,
Dave.

Bond your chassis = take whatever it is to bits and stick it back together with something in between the contact points of the seperate pieces?

DaveK
15-03-2012, 21:33
Bond your chassis = take whatever it is to bits and stick it back together with something in between the contact points of the seperate pieces?

Yep, strip it down and bond the floppy heavy rubber bit to the bit that its screwed to, to put it simply, or at least, that's what I did :) .
Dave.

realysm42
15-03-2012, 21:53
Yep, strip it down and bond the floppy heavy rubber bit to the bit that its screwed to, to put it simply, or at least, that's what I did :) .
Dave.

Cool, I had this idea with my Blok rack, I used Mastic, I thought it couldn't do any harm (actually in hindsight I'm sure it could have ruined it but there we go lol). It helped things a fair bit.

Do you wait for the warranty of things to run out first? I'd love to have a go with some bits but I daren't touch them for a few years lol.

I'm pondering some Croft bits in my system as my next round of upgrades; if I go ahead with it I'd actually ask him to add some bits in for me, or atleast put the question out to him.

DaveK
15-03-2012, 22:01
Ha ha, length of warranty is rarely a consideration for me, most of my kit has been rescued from eBay. For instance my SL1210 came with 1 foot in 3 bits, with no cartridge and cost me all of £75.00.

realysm42
15-03-2012, 22:06
All of my stuff is brand new and there's no way I could replace it right now, i'll have to behave for a while :(

sq225917
16-03-2012, 00:34
There's a world of difference between something being magnetic, ie attracted to a magnet, and having sufficient magnetism of its own to affect signals in your Hifi. Bloody radiators hardly suck screwdrivers off the floor now do they. Your radiator will act as an effective shield from EMI, not as a source of it.

The simple rest is to plug a cheap MM cart into a phonostage via shielded wire and wave it about anything you think may be a source of RF/EMI you'll soon understand what matters and what does not.

nat8808
16-03-2012, 09:03
Don't some racks and speaker stands have supports made of or containing ferrous material, even if it's only the screws/bolts that hold everything together?
BTW, just because it is ferrous does not necessarily make it magnetic - for instance some stainless steels will be non-magnetic, even though they may contain around 70% iron. So is it the presence of iron that is the problem or the fact that it is magnetic? - the two things do not always go hand in hand - ain't metallurgy fun? :lol:

Ah! But when any electrically conducting surface is exposed to a changing magnetic field (e.g. such that from a cable with music going down it or a physically moving magnet) then you set up eddie currents (electron flows) within that metal that re-creates an image of the field.

There's an experiment at the Science Museum (can do it at home) where, errr.... oh bum, I can't remember what it is. I think it has a magnet on one side of a piece of plastic and a choice of metal discs on the other; copper, steel etc. It shows that when stationary the copper one say doesn't stick to the magnet but when the magnet is moving the copper does indeed stick to the magnet.

Denis Morecroft (DNM) is keen on getting out his aluminium bar and sliding a magnet down it to show how it slows down because it becomes attracted to the magnetic field being built in the bar by the moving magnet itself.

That's how eddie current braking works on trains and doesn't need to use steel or iron.

So! Any electrically conducting metal will re-create an image of the moving magnetic field it experiences.

Some say how their equipment sounds better when they remove the metal lids of their gear: Wooden sleeves for Concordant preamps were made because of this, the XTC 2 pre has an acrylic lid, Lampizator makes a hole in the steel under the circuit and places wood there instead etc etc.

Rather a leap of faith though to remove all casing!

nat8808
16-03-2012, 09:10
Surely there should be a prize for the first person to successfully do an A, B demo with and without radiator.
----/--
I can assure you that what you use to bond ones chassis together makes a significant difference.

:lol:

Blind testing?

"Bloody cold in here now isn't it?"

"Yes it i... ahhh! " (scribbles something in his notes..)

Marco
16-03-2012, 10:31
Ah! But when any electrically conducting surface is exposed to a changing magnetic field (e.g. such that from a cable with music going down it or a physically moving magnet) then you set up eddie currents (electron flows) within that metal that re-creates an image of the field.

There's an experiment at the Science Museum (can do it at home) where, errr.... oh bum, I can't remember what it is. I think it has a magnet on one side of a piece of plastic and a choice of metal discs on the other; copper, steel etc. It shows that when stationary the copper one say doesn't stick to the magnet but when the magnet is moving the copper does indeed stick to the magnet.

Denis Morecroft (DNM) is keen on getting out his aluminium bar and sliding a magnet down it to show how it slows down because it becomes attracted to the magnetic field being built in the bar by the moving magnet itself.

That's how eddie current braking works on trains and doesn't need to use steel or iron.

So! Any electrically conducting metal will re-create an image of the moving magnetic field it experiences.


Excellent post, Nat, and concurs with my own direct experiences. It is indeed the eddy current effect, which *appears* to explain many of our genuine subjective experiences in that respect.

DNM and others don't use acrylic cases for the good of their health or just to be different.

I've also experienced the effect many times, most notably when I swapped identical Mana equipment racks - a ferrous angle-iron one, for a non-magnetic stainless steel one, as I said both were identical in all other respects.

When I listened after the change had been done, the sonic improvement brought about by the stainless steel rack was rather shocking, to say the least!! :eek:

Up until that point, I had been surrounding my kit in a detrimental magnetic field, due to what you have explained, with unknown to me serious sonic consequences...

Due to the effect I've described, which countless others have also experienced, no serious high-end audio manufacturer these days would use magnetic cases for their equipment, or on many other things, for that matter.

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
16-03-2012, 13:10
I did some experimentation with a magnet last night on the 1210 sub-chasis and plinth. These are aluminium and provide a reasonably thick cage where the PCB sits and to some extent provide a lot of shielding. A mike new platter (aluminium + copper) provides a lot of shielding from the top. We now know that the magnet on the platter does to some extent leak EMI which may be getting into the PCB, so it may be benefical to Nu Metal some of the PCB, where I have no idea because I would have to get the schematic out and check Mark's comments from a previous thread that I started. :cool: But here's the kicker. The screws which hold the rubber base, the chasis and the plinth together are VERY magnetic so there is a chance that they can conduct EMI into the plinth and subchasis. Hence my recommendation to either change these to plastic screws (which would be non resonant, non RFI or EMI conducting), or aluminium or copper.

realysm42
16-03-2012, 13:21
That's a bit of an oversight isn't it, to go to such lenghts to make everything top-spec and then use dodgy screws.

nat8808
16-03-2012, 14:20
I just wanted to re-iterrate that it is not the ability of a piece of metal to respond to the static magnetic field of a magnet that is the point here..

It is ANY metal or conducting surface that is near a changing electo-magnetic field. Accelerating electrons create an changing electro-magnetic field (electrons moving at a steady pace like in a wire with constant DC voltage across it won't do it but audio or AC signals will)

The larger the surface and the closer the metal to the changing electro-magnetic field the more the metal will reflect that field with a slight time delay and smear that magnetic field (as the electronics in turn partially react again to the secondary field).

This will be effecting circuits containing the signal (not really power supplies) and feedback loops.

So.. in your case Marco, the steel frame would be doing the same as the iron frame maybe to a lesser but perhaps even larger degree - depends on surface conductivity of the material (these eddie currents are set up on the surface, not within the material).

In your case Rexton, the screws will not be conducting EMF and if they were, that they were magnetic isn't related. EMF leakage from the circuit in the 1210 if that's a problem will need more metal around it rather than less..

If you were thinking of something effecting the circuit's operation, it would be more like a sheet of metal casing close to the electronics of the 1210 that might have an effect. But then what effect? It could only effect the servo circuit and possibly to a tiny degree compared to other things. It's a motor going around, ok with a feedback circuit but the changing fields of the magnets and the coils of the direct drive motor will be orders of magnitude higher than any eddie currents caused by closeness to circuits. More likely that any metal will be responding to the motor field anyway.

Then there's that massive lump of metal going round where you put the record.. I'd say that in a turntable it's probably not effecting much (educated guess). You could guess that a metal platter will be reacting to the magnetic field of the cartridge and causing a slight smear effect but how much and is it more than other benefits of say a copper mat (err, people say there are benefits..)? I dont' have to worry about that on my Pink Triangle with acrylic platter.

What I was talking about was large surfaces of metal next to audio signal wires, audio circuits or high frequency feedback circuits as found in many amps and pre-amps.

This is the concept behind that floating, spinning magnet you see when there's talk of super-conductivity. The spinning magnet is making a changing magnetic field in the super-conducting material which is causing electrons to move about within the material. These moving electrons are creating an electro-magnetic field in response that is equal. Because there is absolutely no resistance in the material (super-conducting) this field is of equal stregth and doesn't diminish until either the magnet stops or the material stops being cooled (so stops being super-conducting and electron 'drag' (or resistance) has it's effect).

nat8808
16-03-2012, 14:24
That's a bit of an oversight isn't it, to go to such lenghts to make everything top-spec and then use dodgy screws.

Hehe...

Hifi tweeking is a complicated sport - get too intense with one theory and other things that have escaped attention start to counter what you've just done.

Need a well thought out holistic approach but the hard thing is to work out the magnitude and order of significance of mods and tweeks. That requires real knowledge of physics and other stuff and no pseudo science or incomplete knowledge. Unfortunately in hifi we dont yet have complete knowledge!

realysm42
16-03-2012, 14:30
I'm starting to see that :P

It would be interesting to know how people plan their next upgrades based on what I'm hearing here. I'll ponder some more and come back to this.

Marco
16-03-2012, 14:35
Hi Nat,


So.. in your case Marco, the steel frame would be doing the same as the iron frame maybe to a lesser but perhaps even larger degree - depends on surface conductivity of the material (these eddie currents are set up on the surface, not within the material).


Well, all I can say is that, with experimenting over many years, I've always found that using anything in audio made from magnetic metals is sonically detrimental, unless it can't be avoided (such as with speaker magnets, etc) whether it be with equipment cases, stands, plugs on cables, or whatever.

The best sound from equipment and systems, in my experience, has always been achieved when the least amount of magnetic metals (or whatever you want to call them) have been used in the sonic reproduction chain, and/or in the environment where the listener is situated - and there must be a good explanation for that, other than that I'm a daftee, which of course I am, but not in that way! :eyebrows:

When I changed those Mana equipment racks, the sonic difference was remarkable, and like I said, they were identical in every way, other than one was made from magnetic material, and one wasn't. If I stick a magnet to my rack now, it just slides off, whereas before, it clamped tightly to it. There has to be a correlation between *that* and the difference that I heard, sonically, as no other changes were made to the system. What that correlation is, however, is a matter for speculation or debate.

I'm however perfectly satisfied that my ears weren't lying! :cool:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
16-03-2012, 14:57
That's a bit of an oversight isn't it, to go to such lenghts to make everything top-spec and then use dodgy screws.

:lol: This made me chuckle, cheers mate! Yep I have a very very high spec 1210, which will be even higher spec in the next few weeks! :eyebrows: I love tweeking, look at the debate that it's sparked. It's good to talk. Perhaps now that this discussion has been had it will detract other tweekers from wasting time thinking about things like Mu metal over PCB's, changing screws etc. Anyway I'm sure that I'm now out of daft ideas for tweeking the 1210 for a few weeks now:eek:

realysm42
16-03-2012, 15:11
It's always a learning curve init :eek:

Personally I'm all for making mistakes as if you work it out then you're better for it. I guess if you never work it out then you'll never know what you're missing :scratch:

And yeah, the debate's always good, it's interesting to say the least and if I can grab a little tweak out of it then why not :eyebrows:

Marco
16-03-2012, 15:39
Perhaps now that this discussion has been had it will detract other tweekers from wasting time thinking about things like Mu metal over PCB's, changing screws etc.

Not sure about the Mu metal thing, but I suspect that changing all of the existing magnetic screws (of which there are many on a Techy) and replacing them with non-magnetic ones, is sonically a good idea.

The effect no doubt will be subtle, but defintely worthwhile, if one is intent on 'dotting all the i's and crossing the t's', in terms of modifying the Technics. The cumulative effect of all the 'little things' that make a difference, IME, is often quite significant....

Could you give me a link to a supplier for the non-magnetic/plastic screws you used, showing the exact product required (in terms of size) and approximately how many are required to replace the existing screws on the T/T?

I will do this myself, next time I remove the arse from my Techy, which will be very soon, when I have the Paul Hynes PSU regulator mods fitted :cool:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
16-03-2012, 15:59
I'll go one better and post some pics of the ones to leave alone and the ones to replace! Please dont expect anything for a few days though.

Marco
16-03-2012, 16:00
Cool... That would be good whenever you get a chance. I'll leave it up to you :cool:

Marco.

Artifolk
16-03-2012, 21:09
I too, am in a similar thinking bracket to Marco, concerning non magnetic metals.

For years i've had a Naim Fraim with all the standard parts ferrous/non ferrous, but approx 2 years ago, i decide to try and change one of the Fraim levels Steel threaded rods(3) with non magnetic stainless steel, after prolonged listening tests back and forth i came to the conclusion/s, the sound stage had slightly increased in width, instruments came across with greater ease, deciphering these instrument in complex passage was easier etc, so i kept introducing these to other levels, more listening tests etc. you won't believe how many times i've had the racks apart, setup in different configurations over the last two years.
Today my racks have no magnetic parts, not even the ball bearings.

There is defiantly something going on.. something for greater minds than mine.

YNWaN
16-03-2012, 23:32
You can buy non-magnetic stainless steel machine screws if you are determined to remove all ferrous materials - I wouldn't personally use plastic (nylon) screws as they have a very much lower tensile strength (i.e. you can't do them up very tight).

RS Components sell plastic screws if you really want them.

(however, some of the screws holding the 1200 together are custom made self tapping screws, and you can't just bung in another screw with a different pitch etc.)
____________________

I've tried different screws in my turntables and I have to say that I'm not at all convinced that the magnetic properties (or not) of the screw is actually an issue. What I would say makes a difference is the tensile strength of the screw and how tightly it is done up (also the head size). I've tried arm-board mounting bolts that are identical except for one set being non-magnetic stainless steel - they sounded exactly the same unless the tension was altered.

Barry
17-03-2012, 01:11
Why don't all you guys visit your dentist and get you fillings replaced with non-metallic amalgams! :rolleyes:

Wakefield Turntables
17-03-2012, 15:17
You can buy non-magnetic stainless steel machine screws if you are determined to remove all ferrous materials - I wouldn't personally use plastic (nylon) screws as they have a very much lower tensile strength (i.e. you can't do them up very tight).

RS Components sell plastic screws if you really want them.

(however, some of the screws holding the 1200 together are custom made self tapping screws, and you can't just bung in another screw with a different pitch etc.)
____________________

I've tried different screws in my turntables and I have to say that I'm not at all convinced that the magnetic properties (or not) of the screw is actually an issue. What I would say makes a difference is the tensile strength of the screw and how tightly it is done up (also the head size). I've tried arm-board mounting bolts that are identical except for one set being non-magnetic stainless steel - they sounded exactly the same unless the tension was altered.

You have a valid point in that Nylon screws may not have as much tensile strength (copper and aluminium screws do)! You mention tension, surely all your doing is altering the compression of two surfaces by increasing tension between them, increasing rigidity in effect:scratch: Something with a perfect stiffness would be able to dissipate vibration in a perfect way, the 1210 falls down because its plinth and subchasis and rubber outer plinth are 3 seperate components. You still havent told us what you use to bond your chasis together with ;)

Marco
17-03-2012, 16:26
(I still don't see why you can't use austenitic stainless steel crews...

Wot be they, then? Any linkies to where one can snaffle 'em? :)

Marco.

YNWaN
17-03-2012, 16:29
Nylon screws may not have as much tensile strength (copper and aluminium screws do)!

Sorry, copper and and aluminium 'do' what? They don't have the same tensile strength as steel screws (by a significant margin).


You mention tension, surely all your doing is altering the compression of two surfaces by increasing tension between them, increasing rigidity in effect:scratch:

Well, strictly speaking, you aren't compressing the surfaces (unless you are actively deforming them); you aren't really making them more rigid either. All you are doing is altering the force which holds the two together (which isn't the same thing). Find a vibrating surface (like the side of ones speakers), place ones hand very gently against it, now press it firmly against it - note the difference - it's not because anything has been deformed or made more rigid).


Something with a perfect stiffness would be able to dissipate vibration in a perfect way,

Umm...perhaps - in a perfect world all things are likely to be perfect. To be honest, your analogy doesn't mean much to me; it seems to suggest that there is a perfect and imperfect solution when there is really just a range of different options - more like a sliding scale than a black and white solution. What I have against plastic screws is that they stretch and the thread (and head) deforms - I would rather rely on the torque the screw is done up by to create tension than the screw deforming.


the 1210 falls down because its plinth and subchasis and rubber outer plinth are 3 seperate components.

Well, perhaps (but perhaps not) - the fact that they are separate components isn't inherently an issue and making them as one is no guarantee of improvement. I would like to hear a 1210 without the rubber outer plinth fitted though.


You still havent told us what you use to bond your chasis together with ;)

I didn't realise I had been asked.

YNWaN
17-03-2012, 16:41
Wot be they, then? Any linkies to where one can snaffle 'em? :)

Marco.

Sorry, should say screws instead of crews.

It just means non-magnetic stainless steel (not all SS is).

It depends on what specifications of screw you want, how long a shank, what thread diameter, what pitch, what size and type of head - theres a lot of choice you know.

If you are talking about the screws that hold on the rubber base, they seemed to be something like M4 but with a coarser thread (not a machine screw, some type of self-tapper - then again, perhaps they are a metric thread, I can't remember, would have to have one in my hand). You know, just because a screw has iron content in it and could, potentially, be magnetised, it doesn't mean that it is (it is unlikely to be), or that it will become magnetised (it almost certainly will not). Companies like Technics custom make these screws and they aren't so easy to just swap out.
--------------------
I wont bang on about this any more but, the act of taking out the old screws and putting in the plastic screws means that the parts will be held together differently (less tightly because this is the nature of long nylon screws) - this will impact upon the sound. You would almost certainly get the same effect by using the original screws and doing them up to a lower torque than before (just finger tight) - the fact that one is magnetic and the other is not is a red herring in my opinion and not the reason they sound different. As I wrote in an earlier post, I have used ferrous steel screws and non-magnetic SS screws (in the same application) and they sounded exactly the same - but the level of torque applied to do them up did make a difference.

Reffc
17-03-2012, 17:37
Don't forget to align all your screw heads to magnetic north when you've finished:whistle:

Artifolk
17-03-2012, 17:47
Don't forget to align all your screw heads to magnetic north when you've finished:whistle:

:doh: That explains why my decks sounding a little off.. one bloody screw had gone WEST. :lol:

Wakefield Turntables
17-03-2012, 17:56
Don't forget to align all your screw heads to magnetic north when you've finished:whistle:

Stones and Glass houses ;)

http://referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/design-of-interconnects/

Reffc
17-03-2012, 18:01
:doh: That explains why my decks sounding a little off.. one bloody screw had gone WEST. :lol:

Don't fret, you may be ok if you have an East to West Ley Line close by:sofa:

Reffc
17-03-2012, 18:05
Stones and Glass houses ;)

http://referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/design-of-interconnects/

Slightly different context there. In truth, line level and phono signals are sensitive to magnetic fields which can result in signal distortion. This is why RCA plugs IMHO should ideally be made from non magnetic materials, particularly given the close proximity of the RCA barrel to the signal cable. Perfectionism? Perhaps, but still relevant and still good practice.

(p.s. Tongue firmly in cheek with the responses above, hence the smileys!)

Wakefield Turntables
17-03-2012, 18:20
Slightly different context there. In truth, line level and phono signals are sensitive to magnetic fields which can result in signal distortion. This is why RCA plugs IMHO should ideally be made from non magnetic materials, particularly given the close proximity of the RCA barrel to the signal cable. Perfectionism? Perhaps, but still relevant and still good practice.

I think its the same context i.e. removal of EMI from audio equipment be it a TT or a IC. Surely conductivity is your prior concern with RCA's:scratch: Yep, EMI is important but how are you going to screen the end of a RCA??? I've never seen one yet, perhaps you have a wonder invention you could share with us :lol: However I do agree that terminating RFI and EMI from within the cable as near to the RCA may be the only way unless you use something like a neutrik?? Anyway welcome to AOS, now on with the banter 8-))

Reffc
17-03-2012, 18:43
I think its the same context i.e. removal of EMI from audio equipment be it a TT or a IC. Surely conductivity is your prior concern with RCA's:scratch: Yep, EMI is important but how are you going to screen the end of a RCA??? I've never seen one yet, perhaps you have a wonder invention you could share with us :lol: However I do agree that terminating RFI and EMI from within the cable as near to the RCA may be the only way unless you use something like a neutrik?? Anyway welcome to AOS, now on with the banter 8-))


Actually, conductivity, or lack of resistance is not the prime concern with signal cables (as in interconnects), low capacitance is, along with good screening. Consider the application from source to amplifier. Generally speaking, you are connecting a low impedance output with a high(er) impedance input (generally up to 10 Kohm) so conductivity is not a prime driver in good interconnect design. DC resistance of most RCA interconnects is very low indeed, almost off the scale over a metre or so, so it's really not an issue at all.

The RCA body needs to be conductive but non magnetic. Think of the conductive barrel as an extension of the screen. No magic involved :) and you have your screening of the signal.

The problem with unbalanced circuits is that despite effective screening, common mode noise is still an issue, so to minimise the impact of noise current generated by the noise voltage in the screen, the conductivity of the screen should be much greater than that of the signal core so that S/N ratio can be kept acceptably high.

Thanks for the welcome! You seem a friendly and mannerly bunch with a decent sense of humour! Some great stuff on this forum and looking forward to reading through it over time!

YNWaN
17-03-2012, 19:21
If you are talking about the body of the plug, then most are made out of non-magnetic materials (brass often - even cheap ones).

Reffc
17-03-2012, 19:36
Yes, although many cheap ones are made using nickel plating for surfaces. These are best avoided since such platings are ferromagnetic.

The Black Adder
17-03-2012, 19:55
unplug the radiator... job done!

:doh:

DaveK
17-03-2012, 21:09
Yes, although many cheap ones are made using nickel plating for surfaces. These are best avoided since such platings are ferromagnetic.

Not arguing but are you sure of this? I know that increasing the nickel content of st/st makes it less magnetic and it therefore seems unlikely that nickel itself would be magnetic. Often mild steel is nickel plated in it's own right or prior to plating with something else (like copper or gold) but the underlying mild steel will retain it's over-arching magnetic properties.

Reffc
17-03-2012, 22:04
Yes, I'm sure.

Many forms of nickel plating are magnetic. Nickel, along with iron and cobalt are amongst the group of metals referred to as "Ferromagnetic". This means that they can be permanently magnetised. Advances in recent years particularly in specialist electronics fields mean that non electrical ways of nickel plating have been developed using high phosphorous content electroless chemical plating techniques but these tend not to be employed in budget RCA plugs where more commonly the technique used is electroplating. This imparts a weak magnetic field around the plating and as signal current levels are so low, they can be susceptible to distortion, even by weak magnetic fields. That's one reason why you'll rarely find nickel plating used on good quality RCA plugs.

DaveK
17-03-2012, 22:30
So sorry, you are right, I stand corrected - I am a (very :lol:) lapsed metallurgist (it's a broad church ;) ) but never knew that it was magnetic in it's pure form but I do recall that, it being an austenite former, helped st/st to become non-magnetic.
Goes to prove you're never to old to learn (or forget :) )
Cheers,
Dave.

YNWaN
17-03-2012, 22:37
Such plating is extremely thin though, very little actual metal is deposited - do you think that such a small amount is significant (I guess you do - I don't know, it's not really my field).

Reffc
17-03-2012, 23:57
Such plating is extremely thin though, very little actual metal is deposited - do you think that such a small amount is significant (I guess you do - I don't know, it's not really my field).

Hi

I think the principle is simply that it's not good practice to expose a delicate signal to an external magnetic field in close proximity to it. The strength of the magnetic field surrounding a signal core varies with current (and current varies with frequency). At certain frequencies, there can be a degree of signal modulation (distortion) if even a weak external magnetic field is brought to bear on the signal. That's why if there is a practicable and economically viable alternative, it ought to be used. My personal opinion is that cables should add nothing and take as little away as possible, and that means minimising or where possible, eliminating sources of signal distortion. Whilst there are examples of where this can be taken to extremes which are largely inaudible (and therefore IMHO of little consequence and not that important), choosing a quality connector is a no brainer. Given the choice between one that might have an impact and one that wont have an impact for very little difference in cost seems to me a reasonable argument for choosing one that won't!:). Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread so my apologies to the OP. :o

YNWaN
18-03-2012, 01:04
Hmm..sounds reasonable Paul. I don't think any of my connectors have ferrous bodies (I could be wrong though). I only have one set of RCA phono plugs in the whole system and they are at one end of my phonostage to pre-amp cable - they are aluminium (anodised) bodied Eichmann's (gold, not silver, ones) - there are BNC's at the other end.

Marco
18-03-2012, 07:10
Hi Paul,

Some fantastic info there, much of it confirming the results of my own experimenting in this area with different products :)

I have to say that I'm enjoying your contributions here immensely, so please do hang around and become a regular member of our community! :cool:

Marco.

sq225917
18-03-2012, 07:33
Do we really believe there is enough residual magnetism in a nickel plate layer of a few microns thick to adversely affect the signal? I'm surprised that there is not a wealth of information on this subject regarding microphone connectors were it to be anywhere near valid. Just how high a magnetic flux do we think may be required to distort a signal passing down an IC.

Reffc
18-03-2012, 09:13
I don't think that anyone was suggesting that nickel plating is a source of significant distortion levels Simon, but simply put there are alternative plating systems which eliminate any small magnetic fields and which are better in other respects too, so why not use them? You're right in that there are more significant issues which can affect signal distortion with RCA plug design other than the materials they are plated with, but that's a whole new topic!

Marco
18-03-2012, 10:31
I don't think that anyone was suggesting that nickel plating is a source of significant distortion levels Simon, but simply put there are alternative plating systems which eliminate any small magnetic fields and which are better in other respects too, so why not use them?


Indeed, and I do - because I can clearly hear the sonic improvement doing this makes! It's those extra few percent improvements, in my experience, which move a system from being merely good, to being truly special! :)

Why settle for anything less?

Marco.

sq225917
18-03-2012, 10:47
I never mentioned 'significant' I doubt there is 'any' effect.

I'm not aware of any audio manufacturers claiming to use electroless plating of parts, and without that you can be 99% certain that everything is plated with a layer of nickel between substrate and finish layer. With that in mind solid copper or silver pins and contacts are the only 100% safe way forward, if you still think it's a potential issue.

Marco
18-03-2012, 11:26
It all about optimising things as much as is achievable and practical. No-one's saying that you can optimise everything completely.

I'd rather do as much as I can do, than shrugging my shoulders and dismissing the significance of doing at least that much, especially when I can clearly hear the results it achieves! ;)

Marco.

bobbasrah
18-03-2012, 12:54
Andrew, might I suggest that the large slab of metal that is the radiator might not be a source at all, and it could be reflecting RF back toward the deck or disrupting existing fields rather than being a emittive source as such. With the cables being moved as well as the deck, any number of effects may have had an influence in the presence of the large area of steel in originally close proximity.
If you want to throw radiator earthing, or induced field effects from pump-flow into the soup, these will still have miniscule effect with respect to distance as magnetic field effects, so would have minimal impact in your scenario.

Let's be clear on one thing though, as it has been thoroughly mis-stated here - When a magnet sticks to a metal it does not per se mean the material is magnetic, it may be magnetisable, or attractive to a magnet, but it is NOT magnetic. Put a steel paperclip against the radiator face or the equipment casing, IF it is magnetic, it sticks to it.

sq225917
18-03-2012, 17:47
To wit- paramagnetism.