Gromit's Tecchy Blog [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

bong

24-12-2008, 23:53

Nice one Kelvin - look forward to reading up on your experiences.

I was >this< close to buying Scoobs' KAB'd 1210 but being the ditherer that I am ended up missing out on it (glad he got a good price for it in the end though). Still, it's going to be a lot of fun starting from absolute scratch with my own new 1210 and discovering the differences each successive mod makes.

yup, starting from scratch and going mod by mod is possibly the most enjoyable and rewarding way to get your 1210 from stock to super. :) that is, if you enjoy the tweaking/DIY process. My soldering skill is next to naught, so I went for the easy way out, and got a new table with the mods done up by the master himself.

I've got the Sumiko h/s in the Pioneer so that's done. What I really fancy trying is fitting a Roksan Nima tonearm, but am keeping all the other options open of course. :)

do you mean you're going to try fixing the nima on the pioneer or on the tecchy?

No doubt there's going to be a bit of a trip down to these (http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm) guys at some point :)

agreed. i think between dave and kevin, they have enough toys and add-ons for your 1210 to really take it to a whole new plane of performance and enjoyment.

muffinman

25-12-2008, 00:46

my advice is to take your time and appreciate the differences all the improvements make.
i got my ps1200 and cardas arm around the same time - both are huge improvements, but i would have liked a little time with them alone:eyebrows:
arms are plentiful and have traits that may suit you specifically
as there are few only a few ps variants available - i'd recommend that you get that first.
enjoy

fraser.

27-12-2008, 15:30

Gromit

27-12-2008, 16:44

What's your thinking about mats gromit? Do you have a plan for that? I find them too expensive to splash out on and demos aren't practical really... what to do!?

I'm using the stock thick rubber mat just now which does deaden the platter, but there's more to do than that. Ideally i think i'd like something not too high so i can try some clamps.. SRM do a silicone mat and clamp which look interesting... but there's so many other options :confused:

Hi Fraser - I'm not totally sure re mats. I borrowed an SL1210 for a while and I found the best sonics were produced using my NAS's Spacemat (double-sided sticky-taped to the platter) with a Ringmat sat on top. Weird, but it worked. Unfortunately I didn't get to try the SDS Isoplatmat on the Technics although there are many people who rate it highly.

On the Pioneer (which is sort of the same beast, albeit having a sprung chassis) the SDS didn't work well over the OEM Pioneer mat. Best sound I've heard on this is with the Ringmat straight onto the platter but stuck in place with 2 tiny blobs of Blu-Tak. It shouldn't work - the platter still rings but for some strange reason it works really well. Would love to have a play with an Achromat though - this will probably be the one I'll try on the Tecchy.

The Origin Live mat is supposed to work very well on the 1210 - HFW gave it a very favourable write-up a while back.

Turntable should be arriving next thursday. :)

DSJR

27-12-2008, 21:59

The Spacemat shouldn't be too expensive. Tom used to sell me batches of a dozen or so and we sold them very profitably for a tenner or so...

Gromit

31-12-2008, 11:54

It's here (arrived about 30 mins ago)...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2895.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2896.jpg

Half way there...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2898.jpg

Playing away (John's counterweights he made for the PL71 fit quite well too)...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2902.jpg

:)

Yomanze

31-12-2008, 13:47

Hi Richard look forward to following this thread. Did you ever try the SRM acrylic mat with the Pioneer?

MartinT

31-12-2008, 15:39

Nice one Richard. As you can see in another thread, I share your excitement with a new toy. Is that a Denon cartridge I spy in the Sumiko headshell? What phono amp are you using?

Gromit

31-12-2008, 17:10

Thanks chaps :)

Yomanze - I never did try the SRM with the Pioneer, so I suppose I ought to get round to doing so at some point.

Martin - saw your thread, and look forward to reading of your exploits with the new turntable.

As to my new toy? I've got to be brutally honest here, in fact at the moment it's been something of a disappointment. I knew from previous experience that the PL71 is a better turntable than the bog-stock Technics but the one I used for comparison before had had what looked like a bit of use - not a hard life as such but it wasn't fresh by any means.

The trouble here is that I'm suffering a bit of a dilemma - do I throw money (reckon on up to £1k which could be well spent on other bits in the system) at the 1210 in the hope that it ends up sounding as good as or slightly better than the PL71 or sell it as a hardly used item and chalk it up to experience? I know a fully-fettled Technics can sound excellent but at the moment the difference between the 1210 and the Pioneer isn't small; in fact it's a yawning chasm. If it had been reasonably close, I'd have drawn some confidence from the fact that it wouldn't then take much to really bring the Technics up to and beyond the Pioneer.

I'd been setting the Technics up this morning and my wife (who's also a professional musician) popped in from the room nextdoor, not realsing that I'd got the new turntable set up. First thing she said was 'oh no...that's not right, where have the dynamics and colour gone?' She does like the look of the 1210 though. :)

I've tried the DL103 in the 1210 (with the extra ballast fitted) and the Audio Note IQ3 and I'd say the Technics arm is a lot happier with the AN cartridge. At the moment I'm on a bit of a downer about all this but tomorrow, as they say, is another day.

Mike

31-12-2008, 17:21

sell it as a hardly used item and chalk it up to experience

That sounds like a BRILLIANT idea! :eyebrows:

<he said with a grin on his face while stroking his wallet>

Mike

31-12-2008, 17:30

Shut it, Marco! :lolsign:

Marco

31-12-2008, 17:39

As to my new toy? I've got to be brutally honest here, in fact at the moment it's been something of a disappointment. I knew from previous experience that the PL71 is a better turntable than the bog-stock Technics but the one I used for comparison before had had what looked like a bit of use - not a hard life as such but it wasn't fresh by any means.

Hi Richard,

Sorry things aren't going as well as you expected, matey.

This may appear rather obvious, but if the last unmodified 1210 wasn't as good as your PL71, why would you expect this one to be any different - just because it's new out the box? :scratch:

If anything, the older one that's been run-in a bit is probably liable to sound better. The new one doesn't have magic 'wuffle dust' in it which transforms it into an all-conquering super-deck, you know! ;)

I can't advise you on how good the 1210 will be when fully modified compared to the PL-71 simply because I've never heard a PL-71, however what I can guarantee you beyond question is that there is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between a standard 1210 and a fully modified one from KAB or Sound Hi-fi - in fact, exactly the "yawning chasm" you describe.

The balls in your court, Rich, as to whether you want to go the extra mile and experience that difference for yourself...

Marco.

Mike

31-12-2008, 17:47

Oi!!!... scroll up a bit! :lol:

Marco

31-12-2008, 17:51

You posted that as I was sending mine! :lolsign:

Besides, I always give honest advice.

Marco.

scoobs

31-12-2008, 17:51

Rich, why not leave the 1210 spinning overnight, the bearing may well respond to a bit of running in. I'm suprised the arm isn't mating well with the 103 too, I can think of a few options to try with it, but like you say tomorrow is another day. Why dont you think about a trip to see Dave at Soundhifi, take your 1210 and PL-71 and compare it to his.

Have you locked up the arm base?
Try replacing the o-ring on the headshell
Remember that the arm cable interconnect is poor quality
Are you able to try the 103 without balast at the headshell and remove the 'thru' weights at the back (pop the little aux weight in and turn the stock weight back to front)

Gromit

31-12-2008, 18:12

Thanks guys - you're a good crowd. :)

Marco - I think I'd got myself in a bit of a tizz over my previous 1210 experiences, basically because the one that I borrowed (which looked a bit fooked in places as though it had had a slightly hard life) sounded a lot better than the one I bought off eBay which looked very sweet but sounded a bit lack-lustre.
I'm fully aware that a new'un isn't going to be some mana from heaven compared to an old one, but the idea of getting the 1210 was to commence a long and steady upgrade path - as I say I'm just on a bit of a downer about it all at the moment as I don't remember the difference between the 1210 and the Pioneer being this wide before.

Nick - I may well try the 103 sans ballast and see how it goes. I've got the MC15 Super (mounted in the Sumiko) playing at the moment which works quite well, certainly better than the weighted Denon. Think I'll order a spare headshell so I can do some cartridge-rolling too. :smoking:

The only really worrying thing is that once I start throwing funds at the 1210 it won't take long to get to a point of no return and I'll have to go the whole hog. If I knew which upgrade made the most dramatic improvement I'd do that first - I'm fully intending to keep the Technics arm bog standard simply because I don't intend to keep it fitted; getting it re-wired therefore wouldn't be worth it.

Marco

31-12-2008, 18:14

Remember that the arm cable interconnect is poor quality

Correct, although a bit of an understatement!!

Try: as 'shitey and pissy' as a very 'shitey and pissy' thing, which ruins the music in a very ruinous way. Does that get the message across sufficiently enough? ;)

Marco.

pure sound

31-12-2008, 18:31

MartinT

31-12-2008, 18:31

I'm fully intending to keep the Technics arm bog standard simply because I don't intend to keep it fitted; getting it re-wired therefore wouldn't be worth it

Judging by my findings so far, the Jelco 250 is perfect for the Denon and I'm sure Marco will put in a bid for the 750 too. Since they replace the problematic cable they could be a good path for you to take. The PSU is most likely mandatory, too.

Peter Stockwell

31-12-2008, 18:40

FWIW, I think the single most important thing is the PSU. After that, I think it's down to how the cartridge and the phonostage like each other. (I was having great fun with the HiCap/Stageline N/Shure V15-IV Jico, until the hummmmmmm stated up big time) Still running the arm stock, but with a sumiko headshell with cardas wires and the thruno weights. Even with the high compliance Shure the extra mass works well.

cheers

muffinman

31-12-2008, 19:00

FWIW, I think the single most important thing is the PSU. After that, I think it's down to how the cartridge and the phonostage like each other. Still running the arm stock, but with a sumiko headshell with cardas wires and the thruno weights.

same set up here and same opinion on the psu.
if you notice no improvement at that point, i'd cut your losses and look elsewhere.
if only there was a uk manufacturer who did home dems :confused:
trouble is, until you change the arm leads, it will still sound a little dull.
saying that, the 12 does have a certain 'out of the box' charm and i'm suprised this hasn't been the case with yours.
i've got my fingers crossed for you

Gromit

31-12-2008, 19:29

Why are you doing this? If the PL-71 pushes the relevant buttons for you, all you can really do to the 1210 is spend money trying to make it sound the same. I think it could end up being expensive & if the Pioneer already does what you want (& didn't cost much) then keep that & put a better cartridge on it. I can quite understand someone without another deck upgrading a 1210 with a nicer arm & psu but you are already there.

That's why a good quality motor unit like one of the Denons a JVC or an SP10 has more scope. You can experiment with plinth design, various (even multiple) arms etc. There's less to experiment with on a 1210 once the arm & psu are attended to and you are limited really to 9" arms aswell.

Thanks Guy - that's a very sensible way of looking at it, and is exactly what I needed to hear in many ways. Thing is, trying to find a good SP10 - where does one start, should I end up deciding to take that route?

I suppose throwing money at a TT to make it (possibly) sound broadly similar to what I've already got sounds a bit daft. Another possible plan is to get the Pioneer's arm given a once-over by J7, have the bearings cleaned re-lubed and adjusted properly (the bias control is a little hit'n'miss anyway so needs looking at). Wouldn't cost much and I'm sure would be beneficial. :)

Mike

31-12-2008, 19:43

Shall I start counting out the note's yet? :eyebrows:

:lolsign:

Marco

31-12-2008, 19:55

Don't get me wrong, I rate the SP10 very highly as a superb example of turntable art, but I'd advise against buying one unless you know its history otherwise you could end up with a possible nightmare for a number of reasons.

Also, SP10s are extremely plinth dependant and appropriate good quality plinths don't come cheap - and neither do 12" arms to partner them with! ;)

Factor all this in with the fact that in my experience there's next to bugger all difference (listening experience tells me this) between one and a fully tricked out 1210 fitted with a high quality arm, providing the respective cartridges and arms used on both decks are of similar quality, and that you're dealing with a 30+ year old device which uses some parts that are no longer available, and I know which way I'd be going in your shoes, Rich...

Have you read this thread? http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1023

If not, you should.

For me it's either a case of 'pimping' your Pioneer fully and giving up on the 1210, or biting the bullet and going the whole hog with the 1210. I just wish you lived nearer Wrexham because one listen to my 1210 now with the Jelco SA-750 and DL-103SA fitted would blow away any indecision you've got about having yours modified likewise :)

Trust me, do so, and you'll end up with a *very* special sounding turntable.

The decision is yours!

Marco.

pure sound

31-12-2008, 20:26

I'd rather buy a second hand SP10 than a second hand 1210 though. Now that would be risky!

Having talked with Dave Cawley about it, I'd be happy letting him look at either of my 2 should there ever be a problem. He seems to have a complete understanding of the motor control circuitry & I don't think there are any unobtainium components in there!

I'm not sure the servicing aspect is as much of an issue as it might have been once.

With regard to plinths, you can go from a simple piece of kitchen worktop to slate or fancy laminates with springs, cones or compliant feet beneath. All will affect the sound somehow but it'll still sound good. The flexibility it then gives with regard to arm types & lengths is also appealing.

Marco

31-12-2008, 20:57

Yep, Dave's undoubtedly the Technics man, whether 1210 or SP10 :smoking:

Guy, you're right about arm flexibility but how much does a 12" SME arm cost or something else of that length of similar quality? You could end up spending twice the amount the motor unit cost, or more, on a 12" tonearm. Fine if money is no object, but otherwise not...

Also, in my experience, SP10s perform best in a slate or solid and inert wooden plinth (like Dave's deck has), neither of which comes cheap. Other plinth materials, such as you mentioned, adversely affect the SP10s performance to a degree that would make me not bother going down that route.

Regarding parts, I'm sure Dave could fix pretty much anything to do with an SP10, but for me there would always be the niggling doubt that its best days were behind it, and that if what I was listening to was representative of what the unit sounded like when it was new all those years ago...

There must be a whole load of electronic circuitry and moving parts in there well past their sell by date.

I'd rather buy a second hand SP10 than a second hand 1210 though. Now that would be risky!

Indeed :)

It'll be interesting to hear what difference a Slatedeck (or solid wooden) plinth makes to my modified 1210 in the new year. I'm quite hopeful it'll move things on to yet another level...

Marco.

pure sound

01-01-2009, 00:18

The beauty of an SP10, 1210 or indeed the Pioneer is that there is only one moving part! With regard to the ageing of components, I suppose the electrolytic capacitors may one day need to be replaced. However, I do use a LEAK tuner that is about 50 years old & which functions perfectly well. I'd also have more confidence in getting an SP10 or similar put right than I would for pretty much any CD Player made any more than 10 years ago. Fortunately plenty of SP10's were made too so its not too difficult to get parts.

I just can't see the point of Richard chasing the Pioneer's performance by throwing money at the 1210. I'd be inclined to use the Pioneer as a benchmark (and as a 'daily driver) & then have some fun replicating or improving on it with a free reign on the choice of plinth, arm & cartridge. I missed an Ortofon 309 at a good price the other day. That would've been a lovely arm to play with but doubtless there'll be others.

Arlequen

01-01-2009, 11:39

It'll be interesting to hear what difference a Slatedeck (or solid wooden) plinth makes to my modified 1210 in the new year...

I had mine on black Granite base and it sounded splendid ..

Gromit

01-01-2009, 15:20

Just had a well-spent half-hour setting up the AN IQ3 cartridge very carefully. It's been worth the effort as the turntable's snapped into focus somewhat better. Sure the Pioneer still beats it by a not-inconsiderable margin, but the AN is clearly not putting the kind of pressure on the Technics arm in the same way the MC's did and has helped to close the gap very slightly.

Perhaps I ought to try it in the Akito/LP12 ;)

Only problem, fabulous as it is for the ££, I'm having to use a CA 640p phonostage for the MM cartridge as the Phono2 isn't able to switch to MM use.

Knowing how Marco likes photos I felt it only right that I should oblige...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2907.jpg

:)

chris@panteg

02-01-2009, 00:10

Hi Gromit

I fitted a DL160 in a sumiko and it really opened up the sound ,also isonoe feet and a srm/acrylic mat.

Still have the stock wiring but it does sound dramatically better ,regarding the phono leads what would be a good upgrade at reasonable cost is it worth getting the OFC tech leads around £25 ,do they need to be the same capacitance.

DAVEDWACK

02-01-2009, 01:10

Thing is, trying to find a good SP10 - where does one start, should I end up deciding to take that route?

Hi Richard,

There's one gone up for sale over in the tent by that chap (Keith) who seems to shift quite a lot of DD turntables. I know you go over there so I dare say you've already spotted it.

Cheers......Dave

P S I hope I've not broken any rules by mentioning other places:)

Gromit

02-01-2009, 08:09

Hi Richard,

There's one gone up for sale over in the tent by that chap (Keith) who seems to shift quite a lot of DD turntables. I know you go over there so I dare say you've already spotted it.

Cheers......Dave

P S I hope I've not broken any rules by mentioning other places:)

Hi Dave - thanks for the heads-up re the SP10, I hadn't spotted that one.

My 1210 may well be up for sale by the end of today - I've slept on the issue, and feel that Guy's slant on this makes a lot of sense. The only way I'm going to keep the 1210 is if there's someone (who is reasonably local) who would be kind enough to let me hear a modded one up against the Pioneer.

MartinT

02-01-2009, 08:42

Richard, where are you located?

Gromit

02-01-2009, 09:16

Richard, where are you located?

Hi Martin - I'm in Uxbridge, just of J1 M40.

MartinT

02-01-2009, 10:44

Well, if you fancy the trip to Basingstoke (M3 J6) you're welcome to have a listen to my (still running in) modified SL-1210.

Marco

02-01-2009, 11:07

Nice cartridge shot of the AN, Rich - cheers! :)

I'm a bit confused though as to why you bought a brand new 1210 only to abandon it almost immediately... I understand (and frankly am not at all surprised) that it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as your PL-71 in stock form, but what exactly did you expect? :confused: :scratch:

I thought you'd bought the 1210 as a project to modify by adding a Jelco arm and Time Step PSU, together with carrying out various other tweaking, but those plans seem now to have been abandoned just because the stock 1210 doesn't sound as good as your PL-71. I don't wish to appear insensitive, but before buying the 1210 you should've had a clear plan of action in mind and remained focussed on it because now you've just wasted time and money...

Anyway, hopefully a listen to Martin's deck will help clarify things for you, and if not, I hope you find a nice SP10 and that this eventually provides you with the (currently elusive) vinyl nirvana you're striving for :)

Marco.

Gromit

02-01-2009, 11:34

Hi Marco - don't worry about being insensitive, I'm fairly thick-skinned. ;)

Seriously, I tend to think out loud a lot of the time and do tend to jump to conclusions quite quickly, often to my un-doing but hey ho... :doh:

Thing thing with the 1210 is that when I first put it on, it just sounded so flat (and when the Missus comments without prompting something must be up!) and lacking any life. Of course I realise a TT takes a while to bed-in, and it's now sounding better than it did 2 days ago for which I am acutely relieved. I wouldn't go so far as seeing it as a waste of time and money - every now and again it's worth a few bob just to get things in focus, it's just that the margin of difference between the 2 TT's is greater than I'd hoped it would be, or remember it being in fact.

Anyway...onto more positive things, I've put the 103 back in, with ballast and put John's c/w's on the back but up against the bearing, as opposed to being at the back - Tecchy's weight is reversed aswell, and I think it looks better so obviusly sounds better too. This, strangely, has made quite a difference - plus putting the Phono2 phonostage back on line has given it all a major kick up the arse compared to the 640P (the CA's good but it's definitely in a league below, as it should be really for the price).

I haven't given up on this yet - every so often there's a chink of sunlight through the curtains that makes me go 'ooh...there's potential there'. Removing the spikes from the top of the Audiotech table has actually made a slight difference too. Mass-loading the whole shebang with granite slabs kills it dead, making the bass slow and thumpy and ruining the focus.

I'm off to spin some Depeche Mode 12" singles now - bloody good job the neighbours are out :gig:

PS. I made sure I cleaned the record before taking the pic - the one I took 5 mins before looked dreadful!! :lol:

PPS. Martin - that would be superb, thanks. Would love to hear your 1210 - will be in touch in a few days when the New Year stuff has died down (still think I've got the hangover from weds night - and I was working NYE aswell).

muffinman

02-01-2009, 13:48

I'm a bit confused though as to why you bought a brand new 1210 only to abandon it almost immediately...

I agree, a 12 is for life, not just for xmas - shame on you:lolsign:

Gromit

07-01-2009, 19:20

Well after an afternoon spinning some old ELO records (having a fair few air guitar moments into the bargain) and having loads of fun, I've decided to start pimping the 1210 in earnest.

Just ordered a full-spec'd RB250 from the Scottish Wizard of the tonearms known as J7. I gave the Jelco 750 a lot of thought but if I'd gone for that it would have put the Time Step completely out of reach ££-wise for too long. Still, I'm a big fan of the Rega arms and have had a lot of fun out them over the years.

I tried the Cartridge Man Isolator with the Ortofon MC15 super as well today - damn it this thing really works bloody well. Increased clarity, slam, tunefulness, wider soundstage. It goes pretty much against every grain of sense with regard to cartridge rigidity/mounting etc but somehow this thing just does the business. The increase in fidelity fitted to the 1210's arm is possibly even greater than it was in the PL71's. Didn't really work in the Spacearm that well though.

Marco

08-01-2009, 09:30

Hi Rich,

Glad you haven't abandoned the ol' Techy. Trust me, if you modify things properly you won't regret it :)

Are you going to at some point visit Martin? You should. It'll give you a good idea of what's achievable.

Just ordered a full-spec'd RB250 from the Scottish Wizard of the tonearms known as J7. I gave the Jelco 750 a lot of thought but if I'd gone for that it would have put the Time Step completely out of reach ££-wise for too long. Still, I'm a big fan of the Rega arms and have had a lot of fun out them over the years.

Out with of going for the Jelco 750, which in my opinion is unquestionably the best arm for a 1210, particularly if you're using a 103, that's a pretty smart move.

Johnny is a rare beast and what he doesn't know about modifying arms and turntables quite simply isn't worth knowing. Before buying the Jelco, I had considered going for a PU7 and having it tailored to the extra mass required for a 103, which I'm sure would have sounded quite exceptional. However, in the end my love of S-shaped arms and the 'retro' look, together with (as a serial cartridge swapper) the considerable convenience of having a detachable headshell, allowed the Jelco 750 to win the day.

If you're intending to use the 103 long-term, Richard, I would strongly advise that you ask Johnny to tailor the Rega's mass accordingly by adding extra weight to the headshell. This is part of the service he offers. It's the only way a 103 will work anything like properly on a Rega arm. If you don't do this a) the 103 will not perform optimally, and b) you'll blame the deficiencies of the cartridge set-up on the 1210 and arrive at a false conclusion regarding the deck, or at least the experience will contribute to such.

From my considerable experience of experimenting in this area, I would suggest that you ask him to add mass to the headshell so that the final figure achieved (including the weight of the Rega's headshell as fitted) arrives at 20g, and also ask him to make a suitably heavy counterweight balance to compliment the arm in the style of the Mitchell Tecnoweight so that when optimal VTF (2.7g with a 103) has been set it finishes as close to the arm's pivot point as possible - this would make for an excellent combination, otherwise forget all about using a 103 and choose another cartridge for your forthcoming undoubtedly superb arm. I'm afraid it's that simple :smoking:

Your Lyra, if you still have it, would work very nicely.

Good luck!

Marco.

MartinT

08-01-2009, 10:06

Just ordered a full-spec'd RB250 from the Scottish Wizard of the tonearms known as J7

Damn, I was just going to put up my Michell TecnoArm(A) for sale, hadn't got around to listing it yet :(

Oh, and there's still an open invitation for you to come and have a listen.

MartinT

08-01-2009, 10:11

the Jelco 750, which in my opinion is unquestionably the best arm for a 1210

Have to say I love my 250ST. I would wish only for the dark chrome finish of the 750, but I can live with black (and it looks smart on the black 1210). It's the sound that counts, and the combination of 250 and DL-160 is simply superb.

Marco

08-01-2009, 10:59

Hi Martin,

When I mentioned "Jelco" I was referring to the full range.

The SA-750D is particularly suited to the high-mass needs of the DL-103, that's all :)

You also haven't heard a DL-160 on an SA-750D so you don't know what it would be like; come to think of it, neither have I heard a 103 on a 250-ST, but you get my drift...

Marco.

Gromit

08-01-2009, 11:16

Hi Marco - no worries where Johnnie's concerned, he's already on the 'mass-case'. Told him how much headshell ballast I'm using and is making some extra along with the suitable (underslung) counterweight. For the work involved (including cardas throughout, Kondo tags, foam-fill, brass stub & counterweight) the price he's doing it for is hardly believable. Oh...and he's emailed to say that it'll be a brand new RB251 aswell - apparently he builds these himself.

Of course the 750 would've been my No1 choice here but not going for it does open up the psu option. As I'm not 100% sure I'll be staying with the Denon, it's not too much of a problem.

It's all getting quite exciting. :)

A PU7 - now that would be a wee bit special. :smoking:

muffinman

08-01-2009, 15:18

I've said it elsewhere but it bears repeating. My dealings with J7 are by far the best customer service i have had in 10 years of hifi.
the man's a ledge

Marco

08-01-2009, 16:43

Gareth, I think you should relate your experience with J7 for the benefit everyone. I, for example, haven't read it elsewhere.

I have to say this is completely contrary to my own dealings with him, and having met him and visited his house on a number of occasions I know him quite well.

Marco.

A.N.

08-01-2009, 16:44

I've said it elsewhere but it bears repeating. My dealings with J7 are by far the best customer service i have had in 10 years of hifi.
the man's a ledge

^^^ what he said, the best bar non :)

muffinman

08-01-2009, 17:00

'ledge' as in legend
the man is a legend
that means good

Gromit

08-01-2009, 17:01

'ledge' as in legend
the man is a legend
that means good

That's exactly what I thought. :)

Marco

08-01-2009, 17:22

:doh: My apologies, chaps, for my misunderstanding of "ledge"! It's not a term I use or am familiar with.

Carry on! ;)

Marco.

muffinman

08-01-2009, 17:40

Marco you ledge
:lolsign:

anyhoo.
J7 - my experience with jonny was directly after recieving my cardas arm from KAB. the second it got to him he was on the phone and email to me to ensure he was doing exactly what i required. he explained all his reasons and methods to me. He was so helpful and polite that it's hard to talk about without sounding overly reverential.
He's clearly a tonearm guru and i never once felt talked down to
etc,etc,etc

Marco

08-01-2009, 17:44

Yep, that's Johnny boy! :)

Marco.

DSJR

08-01-2009, 18:10

I tried the Cartridge Man Isolator with the Ortofon MC15 super as well today - damn it this thing really works bloody well. Increased clarity, slam, tunefulness, wider soundstage. It goes pretty much against every grain of sense with regard to cartridge rigidity/mounting etc but somehow this thing just does the business. The increase in fidelity fitted to the 1210's arm is possibly even greater than it was in the PL71's. Didn't really work in the Spacearm that well though.

Ummm, have you seen what it does to measured bass performance, even on his own cartridge - it dropped the level and put in a "glitch" at a mid-bass frequency (look in a fairly recent copy of HFW for the review). I'd be VERY suspicious of something that so goes against the grain. It's a bit like modern car manufacturers adding loads of rubber to their suspensions to attempt to simulate a smooth ride when a decent set of dampers could do it better, but cost a lot more........

Gromit

12-01-2009, 21:56

Johnnie's taken a couple of pics of my very own arm, all now finished and looking a bit gorgeous...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSCF1673.jpg

With the Kondo silver tags...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSCF1675.jpg

I'll be putting the Dorian back in this baby - should have it up & running by the weekend all being well. :gig:

Expect a blow-by-blow account of the whole experience. :)

Marco

12-01-2009, 22:13

Woah - shexy, baby... :eyebrows:

Looking good, Rich!

Yes, like I said earlier, I think the Dorian will be excellent in that arm if the 103 doesn't work out. I suspect that I know now which one you'll end up using ;)

I thought you'd have gone for a stripped and polished version though (a J7 special), which in my experience is best with Regas. Paint only damps the arm tube more, which is unnecessary. It's only there to cover up visual imperfections on the arm tube from the manufacturing process.

I think though that your new arm will change the sound of your 1210 much more to your liking, of that I have no doubt :)

Marco.

Gromit

12-01-2009, 22:18

I thought you'd have gone for a stripped and polished version though (a J7 special), which in my experience is best with Regas. Paint only damps the arm tube more, which is unnecessary.

Marco.

Hi Marco - I'd given the stripped armtube a good deal of thought, but came to the conclusion (along with not going for the full-Kondo internal wire) that it'll be funds I can put towards that PU7 one day ;)

Marco

12-01-2009, 22:26

Aha - gotcha, smart move!

I think you've got some exciting times to come with your 1210, so make sure you keep us posted :)

Marco.

scoobs

12-01-2009, 22:39

Things are moving on Rich, look forward to watching this evolve.
If you're itching to tweak a little more whilst you wait for your arm, fill the cavities in the middle damping layer and chassis with WAD damping compound (http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/info_SoniqsPDC.html)...it's a lot cheaper than the Michell stuff that gets supplied with the Orbe. I would also suggest replacing the stock feet with threaded 6mm RDC1 cones, these brought greater tension and texture to bass notes on my 1210. I'm looking at fitting them to my Denon now.

Peter Stockwell

13-01-2009, 01:16

Nice one Richard,

I'm aiming to bling my SL1210, the arm is on order and is set to arrive towards the end of the month and I have an AT33PTG winging it's way to me now. It left Osaka yesterday.

Gromit

14-01-2009, 09:34

Well the first bit went in nice and easily - took all of 15 mins to strip the 1210 and loosely bolt the arm plate in place...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2942.jpg

Just waiting for the Postie to arrive with my new arm now.

Marco

14-01-2009, 09:42

Oooh...the anticipation of it all is even getting me excited! :eyebrows:

Let's hope it's worth the wait - I'm sure it will be :)

Marco.

MartinT

14-01-2009, 09:46

Richard - that plate looks very sunken for a Rega arm. I'm guessing you'll need a few height shims, or have you already anticipated that?

Gromit

14-01-2009, 10:01

Richard - that plate looks very sunken for a Rega arm. I'm guessing you'll need a few height shims, or have you already anticipated that?

Yup - it is indeed pretty low Martin but I have it on good authority that the Rega's arm rest unit has just enough height to not hit the turntable's top plate. The lower plate (the one to which the arm bolts) can be adjusted with shims (plenty of which are supplied) so it won't be a problem, just might need a bit of juggling to get things spot-on.

I'm off out on a gig at midday so keeping fingers and toes crossed the arm turns up in the next hour or so...I want to hear it playing before I go out!

Gromit

14-01-2009, 11:31

This is going to have to be short & sweet...

First impressions?

Fookin' hell!!! :D

Got to dash - need to be at work in 25 mins :(

Marco

14-01-2009, 11:43

I look forward to hearing more later, Rich. I presume this has altered your views somewhat of what the Techy is capable of? ;)

Enjoy the gig :)

Marco.

pure sound

14-01-2009, 11:48

It does seem to be the experience of those who dispense with the stock arm that the only way is up! Look forward to hearing your impressions once more hours have been spent with the J7 special!

Marco

14-01-2009, 11:53

Guy, the stock arm is very good, but only once it's been fluid damped, rewired with Cardas cable, the headshell replaced and upgraded, and also the counterweight balance replaced and upgraded with a heavyweight brass one...

In short, it needs 'slightly' tweaked to sound its best! ;)

Richard hasn't heard a 1210 with a 'decent' arm on it before in his own system so he's now entering a whole new world of pleasure :)

Marco.

chris@panteg

14-01-2009, 12:12

Marco

14-01-2009, 12:14

Get the Time Step first, Chris. Good though an arm upgrade is (and it is very significant) the PSU upgrade is undoubtedly the most fundamental :)

Marco.

chris@panteg

14-01-2009, 12:27

Thanks' i had a feeling it would be having had the linn lingo and voyd ref PSU

Good advice Marco and the arm maybe the 750d

muffinman

14-01-2009, 12:43

Hi Marco

Yes for me it was quite a shock just changing to a Sumiko headshell and the dl160, but the big question for me is it better to upgrade or change the arm or get the Time step 1st as funds are limited.

Bear in mind that a J7 full rewire, counterweight and psu will cost about a ton less than the 750d, i/c and plate.

MartinT

14-01-2009, 15:00

the big question for me is it better to upgrade or change the arm or get the Time step 1st as funds are limited

I would say go for the TimeStep PSU first. Then you can have a real ponder over possible arms like the Jelco 250, 750 or Rega derivative. Since you use a DL-160, my vote would be for the 250 since the combination works very well for me.

chris@panteg

14-01-2009, 22:56

Thanks Martin' yes the 250 looks almost a no brainer really then as i love the DL160 .

Marco

16-01-2009, 01:42

Richard, where are all these lovely pics and reviews of your new arm which are on pfm - we're always treated as second class citizens! ;)

Showz da pics and let's hear what your thoughts are so far :gig:

Marco.

Gromit

16-01-2009, 16:32

Just a quickie for now...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2962.jpg

Will do a full report soon. :)

Marco

16-01-2009, 16:40

That ish looking rather shexy, Mish Moneypenny... I thought that the Lyra would end up there sooner rather than later :eyebrows:

I look forward to reading the full report. Don't forget to include your thoughts on how the 103 performs on J7's pimped Rega :)

Marco.

fraser.

16-01-2009, 21:55

Is there a reason why most folk go for the mk2 over the other ones? Are there any pros and cons to getting a mk5g or whatever instead? Cheers

Marco

16-01-2009, 22:28

HI Fraser,

Yes, it's because the MK2 is being offered at a good price at the moment from Empire Stores.

There are no 'cons' with the MK5G - you simply get a nicer finish, OFC tonearm cable finished with some posh plugs, and the arm is titanium constructed instead of made from aluminium :)

Oh, and you also get some added featrures on the pitch control (and nice blue lights), but I wouldn't think that was of much interest...

And it also costs quite a lot more!

Marco.

fraser.

16-01-2009, 22:48

Cheers marco, i've found a mint 5G at a good price so i think i'll grab it and sell my mkII.. Would this model still benefit a lot from tonearm fiddling?

Marco

16-01-2009, 23:16

Yes, but not as much as with others. It all depends how much you want to spend :)

Marco.

Marco

19-01-2009, 00:42

Just a quickie for now...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2962.jpg

Will do a full report soon. :)

Erm, we're waiting! ;) :eyebrows:

Marco.

Gromit

19-01-2009, 08:54

Monday morning progress report...

Well the weekend has been spent doing a whole lot of listening and setting up. The OL armboard doesn't sit flat to the plinth properly so I had a couple of hours' yesterday finally getting it all level - the azimuth on the cartridge was a fair way out (it was 1mm difference in height across the headshell) so clearly wasn't helping matters.

Where do we sit now in sound & music terms though?

Listen to the Technics (in its current form) for a short 15 min 'fix' and it sounds stunning. It appears to have no lag whatsoever in the bass, it's faaaaaast on transients and really lets the Dorian show its stuff in terms of lightning-quick attack on drumkit etc. It shows some quite stratling sonic pyrotechnics and is to my mind beyond criticism as to its power and punch. The HFW test of this set-up was spot on in its observations (my rig is pretty much identical apart from the mat and Isonoe feet).

There is one thing which does bother me though, and that one thing is probably the reason why I don't think it'll end up staying.

As I said, on the 'quick' listen it shows itself to be extremely impressive (hence some of my comments above) but on longer-term listening it fails to satisfy. Why? It simply doesn't allow music to breathe. I've put on records which I know inside-out (some piano music which I know well because I've played some of it myself) and the Technics tends all dynamic shading with the same brush. To use a Tom Fletcher-esque analogy it seems to want to crack everything with a sledgehammer be it a paving slab or a small egg. This tends to kill rhythmic patterns - I'll try to explain: Take a standard-issue 4 or 8 bar phrase - within those phrases lie 'moments' which are either forced or held back and in doing so it lets the music gain shape and interest. It simply makes the music sound, well, like 'music'. Because the 1210 is charging around hitting everything with a baseball bat these moments get lost and all sound the same. There also seems to be little if any decay - body resonance on solo piano isn't very convincing and there's not much sense of 'being there' either.

This is going to sound slightly abstract (sorry!) but on some records I'll get my Clarinet out and play along with the music, simply because the system makes me want to join in the session. It's all good fun. I haven't felt the urge to do this with the 1210 as it's not communicating that sense of music-making and the energy contained within it. I just find my mind starts to wander after 20 mins or so.

Now, one could of course argue that 'well the Rega arm's not right for it' or 'you should use a different mat' or 'the Dorian's no good for it' etc etc. My answer to the arm issue is that every time I've listened to a Rega turntable (from Planar 2 up to the P9) it has an absorbing and fun way of making music enjoyable. Sure they have their faults but they use the same arm as mine and do a perfectly good job. The Dorian, in every other turntable I've used it in, has an effervescence which is truly addictive and I know from experience it can do the subtlety thing really well too. Not much gets away from it.

Of course I could go on and add the psu but I have no desire to - all the stuff I've done to it so far is bolt-on and can be removed with no evidence of it having been there. From previous experience, once a turntable has set its stall out it doesn't tend to shift that far away from it, despite any mods it may receive on its journey. A good example of this was probably when I added a Lingo to my LP12 many years ago - clarity improved but the turntable's character remained strong, perhaps even more so. Changing the arm on the 1210 has brought about a stunning difference in terms of clarity and dynamics (believe me when I say the difference over the std arm is huge) but the turntable's musical qualities are largely the same. If one likes what the Technics can do from the outset (and forgive its slightly wayward and coarse presentation, knowing this can be cured pretty much entirely, and not at much cost) then it's a great choice, and for the money represents superb value especially as I feel it can compete with stuff at several times its cost - you just have to like what it does, and if you do, then it's briliant. For me though it's ultimately slightly unrewarding.

Just because I felt I had to I put the Lyra in the LP12 late yesterday afternoon which proved to be a very interesting exercise. Admittedly it didn't have as much punch and drive as the 1210 and didn't sound quite as detailed (it wasn't far off though) but for sheer musical enjoyment it completely murdered it.

I've a couple of other muso mates popping round this evening for an extended listen so I'll be interested to get their slant on how things are sounding (one of them is an Oboist though so is largely deaf ;) ).

MartinT

19-01-2009, 10:33

Richard, I know you're not going to want to hear this - you need the TimeStep PSU which seems to provide that missing magic that you speak of. I certainly get the killer bass and dynamics with the Jelco arm and Denon cartridge, but there is also air and space and a good sense of the room acoustic which I put down to the power supply. I'm finding it to be a better deck in every way compared with my old Roksan Xerxes, itself no slouch.

Colin

19-01-2009, 11:01

It's interesting to me that the lack of involvement is still there, and appears to be uppermost in your mind.

It would seem that although the AO arm has resolved the ''Hi-Fi'' issues to a great extent that you cannot yet make the 1210 meet your requirements. To me this begs the question, are the 1210 fans more hi-fi minded than its detractors. Sorry, not detractors, but neutrals, able to appreciate its good points, but not being totally convinced by it.

I have read quite a few of the threads, here and elsewhere about the 1210, and could not see how anything that was being done to it could make it a more involving deck, rater than a precison instrument type of sound.

I have a simple test for decks, well to be fair any piece of kit, play one side of a vinyl album, or CD, and sit and listen, not concentrate on any hi-fi points, just listen and enjoy. When it has played that side, do you want to play another, or do you want to go make a coffee. If the drink wins, then the kits not right for you. It may make my system choice seem odd to some people, but it works for me.

Does your experiment/comparison with the 1210 -LP12 point to a return to the NA stable, or do you have other decks in mind?

Just to play devils advoacte, you'll have to wait for the pound to hopefully recoup some value, and treat your dads P3 to a groove tracer subplatter its around 200 dollars but takes away my biggest ''bitch'' about any of the Rega decks below the 7.

Marco

19-01-2009, 12:07

Nice write-up, Rich. All you can do is tell it as you hear it, mate :)

However, I completely agree with Martin - no surprise, eh? Well no, but that's only because we both know how genuinely significant upgrading the PSU on the 1210 is. I can't really overstate this: its effect is absolutely fundamental, and it manifests itself in the very areas of the music you mention...

If you don't mind me saying so, you're also making the mistake of assuming that all turntables respond in the same way to a PSU upgrade, which unfortunately isn't the case. I know what you mean about the LP12 and the Lingo (I've had both and agree with your observations), but from experience I can tell you that the 1210 responds very differently to the Linn in that respect, simply because its PSU is so utterly crap to start with and truly reflects the deck's compromised nature for the DJ market in stock form.

The only way to obtain genuine audiophile performance from a 1210 is to completely remove its 'DJ genes' and replace them with audiophile grade components - in effect one should see a stock 1210 as nothing much more than a very cost effective high quality motor unit supplied with some 'free bits'. Your Rega-derived tonearm is most certainly not the problem, as J7-pimped it will be a very fine arm.

This, however, is what I think you should consider most and I feel is the crux of the matter:

What you've effectively done, Richard, and why you've obtained those results with your 1210, is along the same lines as when fitting an expensive hi-end cartridge to an arm which is only capable of revealing 70% of its true potential, so what happens is you hear that the sound has become more 'impressive' in a hi-fi sense, but less so in a musical one (you should know what I mean by this because we've all done it at some point before), which is exactly the effect you've reported. Only when upgrading the arm to the same status as the cartridge, is the full potential of the cartridge realised and the music delivered in its full glory - and so it is with a PSU and tonearm upgrade on a 1210.

In effect, you've gone for the 'quick hit' in search of the best performance and in doing so you have fallen somewhat wide of the mark. Basically, you've ably demonstrated, and hammered the message home loud and clear, that the most important thing to upgrade first is the power supply.

However, aside from that, the important thing is that you’re happy that you’ve analysed things properly and have made the right decision, even though you’ve not heard the 1210 at its best, so where do you go now, back to the Pioneer?

Just because I felt I had to I put the Lyra in the LP12 late yesterday afternoon which proved to be a very interesting exercise. Admittedly it didn't have as much punch and drive as the 1210 and didn't sound quite as detailed (it wasn't far off though) but for sheer musical enjoyment it completely murdered it.

I'll refrain from making any comment on that other than to say that your ears must be less affected than mine by the disastrous effect on music of the LP12's (and that of every other low-mass belt-drive T/T) wow & flutter speed stability (or should that be instability?) issues, in comparison to the 1210s unerring accuracy in enabling the platter to turn constantly at the right speed and thus creating a platform for accurate music reproduction before an arm and cartridge are added – a somewhat fundamental prerequisite for a hi-fi turntable, in my humble opinion ;)

I'd appreciate your thoughts on my observations :)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

19-01-2009, 12:17

Richard,

I had a face off between my old 401 and the KAB psu'd SL1210, and your oberservations viz a viz brute force were apparent with the 401, but the 1210 was much more subtle in it's approach.

So to PSU or not to PSU ?

cheers

Marco

19-01-2009, 12:30

Quite simply, Peter, you appreciated the difference the 1210 made more because you were using it with a high quality PSU.

I trust that answers your question ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

19-01-2009, 12:33

Marco,

I'm convinced, my question was directed to Richard.

In his mail he thinks he's gone as far as he's prepared to go, but the last step is the PSU, and the solid feet which reports indicate bring good benefit.

cheers

chris@panteg

19-01-2009, 12:38

Hi Marco

i think you and Dave have convinced me that if i do anything with my 1210 it must be the Time step psu.

Regarding the Linn' well it can sound very musical and engaging in the right system and i can see what Gromit is saying , i believe in my old system the Linn was a total mismatch
the concordant and 2nd's tended to highlight it faults, so when i got the Voyd it was just perfect.

But the linn in certain systems can sound magical' Len Gregory once told me he fitted a music maker to naim aro on an lp12 and even he was stunned by it and he's no fan of the Linn.

But for me the 1210 is an option i am going to persevere with as i don't have anything else.

Marco

19-01-2009, 12:45

Marco,

I'm convinced, my question was directed to Richard.

LOL! Does that mean he's the only one entitled to answer it? ;)

In his mail he thinks he's gone as far as he's prepared to go, but the last step is the PSU, and the solid feet which reports indicate bring good benefit.

Absolutely, and that's fine, but it's a different thing entirely from being prepared to go as far as is necessary... I agree about the feet, but the effect of those (and the mat) are not fundamental in the way of the PSU. They're simply 'icing on the cake', as opposed to the cake's main ingredients, if you see my meaning.

Marco.

Marco

19-01-2009, 12:50

Hi Chris,

i think you and Dave have convinced me that if i do anything with my 1210 it must be the Time step psu.

No worries - if you want to hear the full potential of the motor unit I'm afraid the purchase of the KAB or Time Step PSU is mandatory. Quite simply, aside from loudspeakers, I can't think of anything else that has such a fundamental impact on the sound heard - that's how important PSU quality is in any equipment.

As far as the LP12 is concerned, I agree that it can be addictive if you're seduced by its particular colorations. A case in point for me being during my many visits to Snapper's, where he has a full Linn set-up including a top-spec LP12, and I can quite happily while away the hours enjoying the music it makes, but at the same time I can also hear the deck's limitations in terms of speed stability, particularly as I'm used to the rock-solid, unflustered, way the modifed 1210 presents music, and accurate it is not (the LP12 that is, not David's overall system).

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

19-01-2009, 13:15

Marco,

Internet forums, etc yada yada. Of course you can answer the question.

Frustrating beast the SL1210, so good out of the box, but so far from what us audiogeeks demand from our TTs.

OTOH if you get a Time Step psu and an arm update, say, for c. £800 total. Then you've got a TT that's hard to beat at that price.

One of the reasons that I sold the 401, was that it was so damned heavy and also that it was "fragile". That is I had to let it warm up before I could listen without checking the speed.

cheers

Marco

19-01-2009, 17:15

Frustrating beast the SL1210, so good out of the box, but so far from what us audiogeeks demand from our TTs.

Indeed, Peter. Like I said, the best way to look at the Techy, from our point of view, is that in standard form you've got a bloody good motor unit for peanuts, with some half-decent 'free bits' thrown in for good measure which enable you to play records to a reasonable standard.

However if you want to up the ante, big time, and turn it into a truly hi-end machine (which it can be) then nearly everything but the motor unit and internal circuitry needs replaced and upgraded.

The key thing to remember here is that if the above is truly your goal unfortunately there are no 'half-measures', sorry Richard! :(

Marco.

Gromit

19-01-2009, 18:25

The 'problem' I have with the psu (if it really is a problem) is that it's not a particularly cheap item - if it was available with a money-back-if-I-didn't-like-it guarantee I'd buy one and give it a go. To throw 300 quid at something (which won't fit anything else) is not something I'd really want to do if I had any doubts about it working out.

Of course if I did get one and it ended up being the answer to the 1210's prayers then I'll be more than happy to gush praise over it. However, the turntable still has some way to go to convince me of its potential talents (which is both fun and frustrating in equal measure) and, at the moment, it has not won me over...yet. :)

Marco

19-01-2009, 18:58

Well there's only one way you'll ever know for sure, Richard, isn't there? :eyebrows:

The fact is you haven't heard the 1210 at its best yet, as I outlined earlier - there's no getting away from that. So will you be satisfied knowing that you only completed 70% of the journey instead of seeing it through to the end and putting it to bed properly? I know that I wouldn't! :)

The other thing to remember, is that my deck has gone head-to-head with a very good Slatedeck SP10, Garrard 301s and 401s and a TD124, and in every occasion it's came out with its head held high. Do you think it would've been able to do that if it couldn't trounce an LP12? Think about that one very carefully, mate...

And anyway, if you bought a Time Step PSU do you really think you'd have any problem moving it on, and probably at next to full price, with all the Techy fans on here??

Come on now man, be sensible... ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

19-01-2009, 19:05

If you didn't like the time step, Richard, I'd have it.

Marco

19-01-2009, 19:08

There you go!!! :)

Marco.

Gromit

19-01-2009, 19:10

The fact is you haven't heard the 1210 at its best yet, as I outlined earlier - there's no getting away from that.

Marco.

Marco - you're probably forgetting I have spent a few hours listening to a fully KAB'd 1210 (all mods present and correct) which is the very reason why I'm not jumping in with both feet too quickly with mine. You are right in saying that I haven't heard my 1210 at its best yet.

What I'm saying is that this 1210 still has a long way to go to convince me - its dynamically single-coloured, rhythmically wayward and still a tad unrewarding to listen to for more than 15 mins at a time. This psu had better do da business or it's back to the old jaloppy for good. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I really do want to like the 1210 - I love its simplicity (particularly its bombproof build) and ease of use and the fact that there's something quite cheeky about using a 'DJ' turntable in a high quality home system. I like that. :)

As much as anything, like a lot of us I have a couple of hifi snobs at work who are taking the piss relentlessly about the 1210 - I'm determined to prove them wrong - but the psu will be the last item (apart from the feet and mat) the turntable gets to prove itself.

Gromit

19-01-2009, 19:12

There you go!!! :)

Marco.

Looks like I'd better get my arse in gear then. I'll order one tomorrow. :)

Thanks Peter - if I don't like it you can have it with a small reduction. :)

Marco

19-01-2009, 19:34

Richard,

Marco - you're probably forgetting I have spent a few hours listening to a fully KAB'd 1210 (all mods present and correct) which is the very reason why I'm not jumping in with both feet too quickly with mine. You are right in saying that I haven't heard my 1210 at its best yet.

My apologies. I of course meant the latter - however, we all know that it's the latter that really counts, don't we? The crucial question I would ask though is how do you find the sound you’re getting now compared to what you heard with Ray’s KAB 1210? That should give you some indication of what’s still to come.

What I'm saying is that this 1210 still has a long way to go to convince me - its dynamically single-coloured, rhythmically wayward and still a tad unrewarding to listen to for more than 15 mins at a time.

Jeez, if mine sounded like that it'd be in the bloody bin pronto!!! What does that tell you? ;)

This psu had better do da business or it's back to the old jaloppy for good.

Absolutely - you'll then have my utmost respect for going the full distance! :)

What I would do though in your position is take a trip to Dave's and get him to fit the PSU for you and 'fettle' the deck in general. If you're going to do it then do it right. You'll also be able to listen to his one fitted with the Jelco and Time Step which will give you an idea of how good things get with that.

Doin't get me wrong, I really do want to like the 1210 - I love its simplicity (particularly its bombproof build) and ease of use and the fact that there's something quite cheeky about using a 'DJ' turntable in a high quality home system. I like that.

Same here. You should see the looks on people's faces who own so-called 'hi-end' T/Ts, or have preconceived 'notions' of the 1210, when I fire it up and the needle his the groove - it's priceless! :lol:

I just wish you were a lot bloody closer because I know then we could put this to bed once and for all, but hey ho...

As much as anything, like a lot of us I have a couple of hifi snobs at work who are taking the piss relentlessly about the 1210 - I'm determined to prove them wrong - but the psu will be the last item (apart from the feet and mat) the turntable gets to prove itself.

Well let's hope you can wipe the smiles from their smug, snobby, faces! More seriously, Dave's T/T mat is a must in conjunction with one of his Clearaudio clamps - you really must hear the effect of this too before fully making up your mind. The Isonoes will be the final icing on the cake.

Marco.

Marco

19-01-2009, 19:37

Looks like I'd better get my arse in gear then. I'll order one tomorrow.

Thanks Peter - if I don't like it you can have it with a small reduction.

Way hey, top man. The journey continues...! :eyebrows:

Meanwhile, I'd appreciate your thoughts on my last post :)

Marco.

MartinT

19-01-2009, 20:04

Richard, if you're going to order the TimeStep from Sound Hi-Fi you may want to talk to Dave about the motor dynamics mod. Also it's worth investing in the Feet 1 (Foculpod) feet even if you're going to ultimately get the Isonoes. I'm mighty impressed with the Foculpod's isolation, even though my system rack already floats on springs.

Oh, and the invitation to come and listen to mine of an evening is still open.

Gromit

19-01-2009, 20:17

Many thanks Martin - I hadn't forgotten your very kind invite over which I will of course take you up on when I get a spare evening. Things are a tad busy at the moment as I'm catching up on some teaching which I had to miss before Christmas.

Marco - it's a shame Dave's such a long way from my place as it'd be great to pay them a visit. If he was nearer (ie sub-100 miles) I'd pop in and get him to fit the psu. As it is I don't really have the time, more's the pity, and we only have one car now (and strapping the 1210 to the back of the Blackbird isn't the best idea) :D

As to Ray's KAB - of course it's hard to do a really accurate comparison with how mine sounds now as his amp and speakers are very different to mine. I did very much enjoy listening to his rig though - and of course it would be un-gentlemanly of me to sit here and pick holes in it (especially as Ray is one of the nicest blokes you could ever meet) but I did find it a little mechanical in some ways. Still, we whiled a way a few hours spinning records and I found the whole session a very enjoyable experience.

Marco

19-01-2009, 20:41

Hehehehe... Bloody lightweight! When I got my Jelco fitted I drove down to Dave's in Dartmouth from North Wales and back in the one day - I think it was nearly 600 miles in total!! :lolsign:

Do take Martin up on his offer though. I suspect that his set-up will be far from "mechanical" sounding :eyebrows:

Marco.

MartinT

19-01-2009, 20:45

I suspect that his set-up will be far from "mechanical" sounding

Only the click of the Start-Stop button :)

Mike

19-01-2009, 20:49

Has anyone compared the Time Step and KAB back-to-back yet?

Cheers...

Marco

19-01-2009, 20:57

Not that I know of, Mikey, but I've heard Dave's 1200 with Time Step and Jelco, and my KAB 1210 and Jelco - and also the latter fitted with a KAB-modified arm with the former 1200 T/T, if that will do...

My gut feeling is that there's next to no difference between the PSUs, sonically - both are excellent. Well, you haven't seen me rush out and buy a Time Step, have you? You know me, I would do it in a flash if I thought there was any real sonic reward in doing so ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

20-01-2009, 09:34

If wot Dave sez is really true bypassing the regulator with a better quality, faster recovery rectifier ought to let the moto take everything in its stride with more ease.

I'll take the Time Step from Richard if it proves he doesn't like it, but I've now set my sights on K2 (If not Everest) and want to get a spiffy SP10, so I wouldn't directly order the Time Step to replace the KAB.

When I was vacillating about just where to take the next step, I considered several arm options, I went so far over the top with the arm that I decided to hold off on the Time Step psu. I've got the feets, and the mat on order along with one of the new extra groovy arm mounting plates. (To be sent out next week, if all goes well).

cheers

Marco

20-01-2009, 11:08

If wot Dave sez is really true bypassing the regulator with a better quality, faster recovery rectifier ought to let the moto take everything in its stride with more ease.

Indeed, Peter.

I haven't finalised my opinion on this, so the jury is still out. At the moment I'm of the opinion that, sonically, one is as good as the other. The main advantage of course is that the Time Step can be purchased and fitted here in the UK, which for me is currently its main selling point, and quite a big one, for UK Technics enthusiasts.

If it can be successfully demonstrated to me that the Time Step is audibly superior to the KAB PS-1200 then I'll also make the switch. However, I suspect this will not be an easy process, notwithstanding the fact that theories from an electronic point of view are only valid (certainly to people like me) if they translate into significantly improved sound quality. It will simply not interest me to change my existing PSU for the sake of it or just to have an arguably more elegant circuit solution. Much as I like Dave and value his products and expertise, the Time Step has got to do the biz, over the KAB, where it matters!

Your new project sounds most intriguing and exciting. I look forward to it all unfolding in front of us in due course. Quite simply, if you do it right with a good SP10 in a proper plinth, using an SP10 Time Step PSU, and fitting a serious arm (12" I feel is mandatory because this is what I think will give the SP10 its greatest advantage) and cartridge, the possible sonic gains over any modified 1200 or 1210, no matter how extensively done, are not inconsiderable ;)

Good luck!

Marco.

Marco

24-01-2009, 21:09

Hey, Rich, any news yet on the Time Step? :)

Or are you still struggling with the azimuth thing?

Marco.

chris@panteg

25-01-2009, 01:39

i have just ordered the timestep too, well its got to be done' if this makes the difference i hope it will then the arm will be next! .

Marco

25-01-2009, 07:49

Nice one, Chris! You know it makes sense :)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

25-01-2009, 10:46

Your new project sounds most intriguing and exciting. I look forward to it all unfolding in front of us in due course. Quite simply, if you do it right with a good SP10 in a proper plinth, using an SP10 Time Step PSU, and fitting a serious arm (12" I feel is mandatory because this is what I think will give the SP10 its greatest advantage) and cartridge, the possible sonic gains over any modified 1200 or 1210, no matter how extensively done, are not inconsiderable ;)

Good luck!

I'll need some cash, too!

The SP10 is a twinkle in my eye for the moment, and I don't think I'll even begin to approach it as a serious project until the autumn. I've some SL1210 fettling to finish. I'd be hesitant about a 12" arm, I just don't care for the aestehtics, but it looks like the readily available plinth options (Slatedeck, Time Step) allow for that, because I'd transfer the (new) arm from my SL1210

cheers

Marco

25-01-2009, 11:02

I'd be hesitant about a 12" arm, I just don't care for the aestehtics...

That's an interesting one, Peter - not sure I get you :scratch:

My view however would be bugger the aesthetics and consider what matters most: performance!

An SME 312, for example, would quite simply outperfom any 9" arm, and by a considerable margin.

So what's the new arm for the Techy, then? :)

Marco.

chris@panteg

25-01-2009, 11:04

Nice one, Chris! You know it makes sense :)

Marco.

Thanks Marco if only my other half can understand :scratch:

Gromit

25-01-2009, 11:36

Hey, Rich, any news yet on the Time Step? :)

Or are you still struggling with the azimuth thing?

Marco.

The azimuth seems ok now, took a lot of fiddling but is as near as dammit spot on fortunately. :)

The psu I'm still stalling on I'm afraid - I'm still not happy with the turntable's musical capabilities, and hearing the PL71 again has just rubbed a truckload of salt into its wounds. There's a synergy, a sense of rightness about what the Pioneer does which I've never heard in my rig before - I sincerely believe it's 'my' turntable - that's to say (at the risk of sounding a little corny) that there's a turntable out there for everyone, mine happens to be this one.

Peter Stockwell

25-01-2009, 11:37

That's an interesting one, Peter - not sure I get you :scratch:

My view however would be bugger the aesthetics and consider what matters most: performance!

An SME 312, for example, would quite simply outperfom any 9" arm, and by a considerable margin.

So what's the new arm for the Techy, then? :)

Marco.

Well, yeah, he says, looking at his shoes, shuffle feet, etc. I was going to say that the plinth size would bother me, but all the plinths I've seen allow for 12" arms. When you see what the new arm will be you might understand why I'd hesitate to change in a hurry.

New arm's a secret until I actually get it. Don't want to put a hex on it, etc. I've got an AT33PTG ready for it tho', and it isnt a rega.
:)

Marco

25-01-2009, 11:41

I suspect it's an SME IV or V :)

There's no fooling yer uncle Marco ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

25-01-2009, 12:39

Marco,

Suspect away ;)

Dave recommends the 309 as the top of the hill for the SL1210 ;)

i_should_coco

25-01-2009, 13:00

An SME 312, for example, would quite simply outperfom any 9" arm, and by a considerable margin.

Marco.

I quite agree. I demoed the SME V against the 312S, both arms 'mounted' on on a Kuzma XL, i.e. one of each on two of the pillars, both with identical IO-Ms, identical cables, the lot - as fair a comparison as we could devise.

The SME312S was so much better it wasn't funny. And for £500 less. It even beat the V in the areas where I expected the V to win - bass solidity, control, etc. - it has that 'calmness' that all good equipment offers and just made music more interesting and structured.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n15/i_should_coco/DSC_0493.jpg

Sgt.Pepper

25-01-2009, 13:11

^^ :youtheman:

Gromit

25-01-2009, 14:02

Coco - I wish you'd stop showing pics of that blasted SP10 (as I wish Guy would stop putting up pics of his). :(

Especially bearing in mind the purchase of my very own '10 has just fallen through. :(

(yes folks...a mate of mine (who does a lot of our recordings) found an SP10 for me but he just got back this morning to say it's actually a bit of a dog).

i_should_coco

25-01-2009, 14:04

Sorry mate! :)

That's a bugger about the SP10 sale. You really must drop in soon!

Marco

25-01-2009, 14:23

Coco - I wish you'd stop showing pics of that blasted SP10 (as I wish Guy would stop putting up pics of his).

Especially bearing in mind the purchase of my very own '10 has just fallen through.

(yes folks...a mate of mine (who does a lot of our recordings) found an SP10 for me but he just got back this morning to say it's actually a bit of a dog).

Sorry about that, Rich. Never mind SP10s, though, what's happening with the PSU for the Techy? - One step at a time and all that jazz... :)

Yer an awful boy for jumping from one project to the next before finishing the last one you started ;)

Marco.

Marco

25-01-2009, 14:47

Pete,

I quite agree. I demoed the SME V against the 312S, both arms 'mounted' on on a Kuzma XL, i.e. one of each on two of the pillars, both with identical IO-Ms, identical cables, the lot - as fair a comparison as we could devise.

The SME312S was so much better it wasn't funny. And for £500 less. It even beat the V in the areas where I expected the V to win - bass solidity, control, etc. - it has that 'calmness' that all good equipment offers and just made music more interesting and structured.

I've had similar experiences in the past, so for me it's a no-brainer - you can't beat a nice 12-incher, as I often tell my wife; to which of course she giggles uncontrollably :eyebrows:

Quite simply, if I were going for an SP10 (providing it was in sound condition) three things would be an absolute given:

1) Slatedeck or solid wooden plinth (after motor condition, plinth quality is the most important consideration with an SP10).

2) A new SP10 Time Step PSU.

3) Some sort of 12" arm, probably a vintage Fidelity Research of some description or an SME 3012 as I prefer detachable headshells, and also given the type of classic cartridges I like to use.

I just wouldn't entertain using an SP10 without all of the above having been carried out :)

Returning to the 12" arm thing, it's crucial for me because this in my opinion is what would give an SP10 a significant sonic advantage over my heavily modded SL-1210, and would be the whole point of going down the SP10 route in the first place. With a 9" arm fitted (even the likes of an SME V) there isn't a hill of beans in terms of audible sonic performance between an SP10 and my modified SL-1210 with the Jelco arm, as has been demonstrated to me now on numerous occasions.

Garrards, SP10s and EMTs should all be used with 12" arms - if you've got the facility to use one, then you bloody well take advantage of it! :gig:

Marco.

Pete

25-01-2009, 15:07

I quite agree. I demoed the SME V against the 312S, both arms 'mounted' on on a Kuzma XL, i.e. one of each on two of the pillars, both with identical IO-Ms, identical cables, the lot - as fair a comparison as we could devise.

The SME312S was so much better it wasn't funny. And for £500 less. It even beat the V in the areas where I expected the V to win - bass solidity, control, etc. - it has that 'calmness' that all good equipment offers and just made music more interesting and structured.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n15/i_should_coco/DSC_0493.jpg

Damn, those SP10s look sexy :smoking:

I must resist.... I must resist... I must resist...

i_should_coco

25-01-2009, 15:11

Hi Marco, while the slate is good, it's not as well damped as I had imagined. It certainly responds to a tap. I have some other ideas in that respect either with composites or mass (sand) or a combination of both. I reckon it's possible to do better (I like a challenge :) ).

While the headshell on the SME is detachable, it's very fiddly and so not really an option for day to day use. :doh: A vintage arm would be nice for that SPU (I will buy one one day), I wish I'd left some space for a second arm as Guy did with his. I really fancy a SAEC or such. :)

I'm not sure about the PSU, as an EE, I'll just build my own rather than paying someone to do it. The journey of experimenting and learning holds value for me. ;)

Anyway, I have a secret weapon, which I suspect would make a dansette sound good. :eyebrows:

Ali Tait

25-01-2009, 15:25

Is it a Slatedeck plinth?

i_should_coco

25-01-2009, 15:32

Is it a Slatedeck plinth?

No, but I believe it was outsourced to be cut by Slatedeck.

Ali Tait

25-01-2009, 16:27

Just wondered.I think Slatedeck use a certain kind of hard slate.Supposed to be better sounding than the more common types around.

pure sound

25-01-2009, 16:38

The 'secret weapon' is at the other end of the arm! :smoking:

My plinth was also cut from welsh slate which is fairly hard. I'm not entirely convinced that such hardness is the property you actually want as it's tending in the granite (high Q) direction.

Clive

25-01-2009, 17:34

Slate does vary hugely, some is more like compacted mud but even the "hard stuff" isn't really that hard though our roofing slates are from Wales and seem harder than the Slatedeck plinth I have. Slate is said to be quite different from granite due to the way it's formed making it more CLD-like. I can't say I know for sure about the physical properties but I do know granite doesn't work that well as plinth material whereas slate does - and the stuff I have passes the knuckle test well too.

Prince of Darkness

25-01-2009, 20:44

From the Slatedeck website:

"We at Slatedeck use the worlds premium slate from the mountains of Snowdonia.

There is no other slate in the world that comes close to the hardness, integrity and beauty of the slate from the Snowdonia mountain ranges. This is well documented and the sole reason why Welsh slate was and still is exported in very large quantities worldwide.

But there is more!

It is a fact that there is only one seam above all the others running through the Snowdonia mountains that beholds the greatest beauty of them all.

And of course we wouldn't offer you anything less.":)

chris@panteg

28-01-2009, 12:38

Just fitted Dave's timestep psu ,will report back later.

Marco

28-01-2009, 12:40

Oooh lurvely... Start a separate thread and do a review of it in the Strokes of Genius section :)

Marco.

Marco

28-01-2009, 12:42

Getting back on topic, does anyone know what Richard (Gromit) is up to with his 1210? He was supposed to be getting a Time Step PSU, too... :confused:

Marco.

Colin

01-02-2009, 06:07

Gromit

01-02-2009, 17:18

I'm not certain, but I seem to recall reading a couple of threads elsewhere in which comments such as, ''when I have moved the Technics on'', have cropped up, so I think it's up for sale. Richard will doubtless be along to clarify the situation at some point.

You'd be right Colin - the 1210 is not long for my world, although I am toying with the idea of taking it up to the HFWW show with the rest of my kit before it's put up for sale.

I've enjoyed listening to the Technics - in many ways it's extremely good - but (and I'm not alone in this as a fair few friends have been round and come to the same conclusions) the Pioneer is still such a long way ahead in terms of musicality and sheer engagement that I don't want to throw any more hard-earned at the 1210. The way the 71 can portray dynamic shading, rhythmic pattern, pitch coherence (which having perfect pitch, to A442, I'm acutely sensitive to) and sheer 'making sense' of complicated musical phrase it is just so utterly addictive.

Current plan is to get that SPU which I've always promised myself, and have the Pioneer's psu caps changed for new ones - it's 35 years old next month so reckon a refresh on a few of its sparky bits would be a good move. Mechanically it's perfect (bar a slightly dicky bias adjuster on the arm) with no evidence that it shouldn't last another 35 years.

sastusbulbas

01-02-2009, 21:22

So now that Empire Direct are no more, where else can one buy a new Technics 1210 for £280?

What is the cheapest deal from an internet dealer?

Gromit

01-02-2009, 21:34

So now that Empire Direct are no more, where else can one buy a new Technics 1210 for £280?

What is the cheapest deal from an internet dealer?

You could have mine (just over a month old) with the OL arm plate thrown in for 250 ;)

Ritch

01-02-2009, 22:17

Hi! First post and I'm spending money! Gromit if your offer to sell is still open/available would you kindly let me know as I would like to take first refusal. Thanks.

Marco

01-02-2009, 22:30

I've enjoyed listening to the Technics - in many ways it's extremely good - but (and I'm not alone in this as a fair few friends have been round and come to the same conclusions) the Pioneer is still such a long way ahead in terms of musicality and sheer engagement that I don't want to throw any more hard-earned at the 1210. The way the 71 can portray dynamic shading, rhythmic pattern, pitch coherence (which having perfect pitch, to A442, I'm acutely sensitive to) and sheer 'making sense' of complicated musical phrase it is just so utterly addictive.

That's all fair enough, Rich, but what happened to the plans for the Time Step PSU? As far as I recall, one minute you had agreed with Peter to sell him yours if it didn't work out as we'd all suggested to you it would, and the next all that seemed to be abandoned without so much as a word of explanation... :confused:

I've asked you the score on this umpteen times here but for some reason you keep avoiding the question :scratch:

I would appreciate some clarity on this - thanks. I'm just curious, as you keep banging on about how much better the Pioneer is (which is fine and understandable) but you've only heard about 80% of what the Techy is capable of, so it's an inconclusive judgement you're making.

And have you been to visit Martin yet - why not take your Pioneer round to his and do a proper shoot-out against his Time Step PSU'd 1210 with Jelco arm? I'm sure this would give you a much better idea of what's going on than you're currently able to judge with your own 1210 :)

Marco.

chris@panteg

01-02-2009, 22:59

Hi Marco

I have been enjoying listening to the 1210/timestep today' and will post in the stroke of genius' i just hope i can adequately describe the difference and in an objective manner,
but i can i just say it does make the deck sound more fluid and musical if you like.

Marco

01-02-2009, 23:16

Hi Chris,

A mini-review would be great - just so we know what your thoughts are on the improvement made by the Time Step PSU. I think it's important to get the message across loud and clear that the Techy becomes a different animal when a high quality external PSU is added.

Anyway, if Richard's going to be at the Wigwam show on 1st March, he's very welcome to bring his Pioneer into the AOS room and we can do a comparison between it and my modified 1210 with KAB PSU and Jelco SA-750D. I'm sure quite a few people would like to hear that :)

Marco.

chris@panteg

01-02-2009, 23:22

Yes indeed ' my good friend john and i will hopefully be there ' i told him last night about the show and what's on and as a vinyl junkie and valve head i think he will be at home.

MartinT

02-02-2009, 07:28

The way the 71 can portray dynamic shading, rhythmic pattern, pitch coherence (which having perfect pitch, to A442, I'm acutely sensitive to) and sheer 'making sense' of complicated musical phrase it is just so utterly addictive

Shame you didn't go for the TimeStep, as those are the things that it brings out in the Technics so well.

Marco

02-02-2009, 08:30

Indeed, Martin, and for some bizarre reason best known to Richard, he doesn't seem to want to talk about it... :confused: :(

Another point worth noting is I believe that Richard had some issues with the OL arm board, through the arm not aligning correctly, then not being able to properly adjust the azimuth of his cartridge, so one wonders how he can judge the deck's performance properly if he can't get the cartridge set up right? :scratch:

Marco.

Gromit

02-02-2009, 08:40

Indeed, Martin, and for some bizarre reason best know to Richard, he doesn't seem to want to talk about it... :confused: :(

Marco.

Er...who said I don't want to talk about it?

I've aired my views on the current state of my Technics world on several occasions. Trouble is, as the deck stands, I really don't like listening to it. Adding the psu will have to change the deck's performance dramatically (the sort of improvement needed would be roughly equivalent to going from a Rega P2 to a Spacedeck I reckon). Now can you understand my slight reluctance to fork out on a power supply?

And to be totally honest I've got more important things to worry about, and being made to feel like I 'owe' an explanation smacks of extreme arrogance imho.

Marco

02-02-2009, 08:55

Richard, you don't owe anyone anything, but since someone's asked you the question about three or four times now, when I know you've been on-line and read it, I think it's only polite to answer it, don't you? I never avoid any questions people ask me.

Peter's offered to buy the Time Step from you at virtually the price you will have paid for it if it doesn't do the business so I don't really see what the problem is... :confused:

However, I don't want to fall out with you about it. If you're going to the Wigwam show I'll look you up, buy you a few beers, and we can do the comparison then so that everyone knows the score - it's something that needs to be done and dusted so that there's no misinformation on the matter :cool:

I myself am curious to hear just how good this Pioneer is (as you've built it up to be something a bit special), so your room will be the first one I'm heading for! :)

Marco.

Gromit

02-02-2009, 09:04

when I know you've been on-line and read it

Marco.

Didn't know I had a stalker... ;)

Seriously - I wish I could explain what I'm hearing with the deck as it is, but I don't have the time to put it all down in print. There's something quite fundamentally wrong with what it's doing at the moment - sure it's impressive in terms of wham-bam but it's thoroughly boring to listen to. I can understand why some would like it, but for me it's a project which is sat on the shelf un-used because I'm finding my enthusiasm, where it is concerned, is a little too low.

Marco

02-02-2009, 09:12

LOL. If you click on 'Currently Active Users', underneath 'What's Going On?', near the bottom of the homepage it lists what everyone on-line is doing, i.e. what threads people are looking at and replying to, or whatever, therefore I'd noticed that you had been looking quite often at this thread but not replying to a question I'd asked about three or four times, so you can perhaps understand my frustration and curiosity at why you apparently were ignoring it ;)

Call it a particular bugbear of mine, but I hate unanswered questions.

Anyway, there's not much point dwelling anymore on this here. Can you confirm that you're bringing the Pioneer to the show in March? :)

Marco.

MartinT

02-02-2009, 09:19

I wish I could explain what I'm hearing with the deck as it is, but I don't have the time to put it all down in print. There's something quite fundamentally wrong with what it's doing at the moment - sure it's impressive in terms of wham-bam but it's thoroughly boring to listen to

Richard, it may be that we all hear something different but I can assure you my 1210 with Jelco arm is not boring to listen to. It's no SME30 but it's the best deck I've ever had and I think it makes a nice noise.

You'd be very welcome to bring along the Pioneer for a comparison - it may be that it still beats the Technics but I doubt it would be by as much as you're experiencing.

Marco

02-02-2009, 09:25

Richard, it may be that we all hear something different but I can assure you my 1210 with Jelco arm is not boring to listen to.

Indeed, Martin - and neither is mine, and I'm sure also that of all the other modified 1210 owners. The fact is if my 1210 sounded like Richard's does it would be in the bloody bin! :lol:

Surely you guys can arrange a listening session? I have to be honest and say that for some reason Richard seems reluctant to do this. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's just the impression I'm getting...

Marco.

Gromit

02-02-2009, 10:51

Right then you bunch of nagging so'n'so's... :ner:

I've just spoken to the very nice lady at SoundHifi and ordered a psu. This had better blow the Pioneer away. ;)

Don't get me wrong - I really want the Technics to work out (as I've said on numerous occasions) but we'll know if it does in 3 or 4 days.

Marco

02-02-2009, 11:28

Nice one, Richard - you know it makes sense :)

It might not "blow the Pioneer away", I can't comment on how good the Pioneer is because I've not heard it, but at least you'll have peace of mind knowing that you've 'dotted all the Is and crossed the Ts', so to speak and so can arrive at an informed conclusion.

Sorry to "nag", matey, but we're very thorough here on AOS and like things done properly! :eyebrows:

Will you be bringing the Pioneer to the Wigwam show?

Marco.

chris@panteg

02-02-2009, 11:31

Hi Richard

The Timestep does something wonderful to the 1210, hope it does it for you.

Gromit

02-02-2009, 12:52

Will you be bringing the Pioneer to the Wigwam show?

Marco.

Of course ;)

The thing I find with the Pioneer - and this is something which I haven't experienced on pretty much any turntable I've owned (and I've owend a few) is that although one could argue that it doesn't throw up vast amounts of pinpoint detail, it hangs musical structure together so beautifully that it's almost uncanny. Pioneer clearly hit a synergistic bulls-eye with this one, such is the balance of its component parts. At the end of the day, for me, it makes listening to music a joy - and surely that is what matters. :)

chris@panteg

02-02-2009, 13:07

Richard would you say it Linn like its presentation or homogenized so the tune stands out as it were, the weirdest thing since i got the timestep ,i have gone back to using the rubber mat' its opened up the mid so much i am not so sure about the acrylic mat now?.

Marco

02-02-2009, 16:36

Richard,

Of course ;)

Nice one. Regardless of the outcome with the Time Step we can have a play with both decks at the show. I think we should devote an hour or so to this exercise as I'm sure it would be of interest to a quite a few people :)

The thing I find with the Pioneer - and this is something which I haven't experienced on pretty much any turntable I've owned (and I've owned a few) is that although one could argue that it doesn't throw up vast amounts of pinpoint detail, it hangs musical structure together so beautifully that it's almost uncanny. Pioneer clearly hit a synergistic bulls-eye with this one, such is the balance of its component parts. At the end of the day, for me, it makes listening to music a joy - and surely that is what matters.

Goodness me, yes, absolutely! And that's precisely how I feel about my 1210 :smoking:

What I feel that I should make abundantly clear is that this "wham-bam" thing you refer to with the Techy is fundamentally *NOT* what turns me on about its presentation - if it were such a one-trick pony I would definitely not have been raving about it the way that I've done for over a year since I bought the KAB modified version. I didn't buy it to jerk off to superficial 'sonic pyrotechnics', Richard, (no pun intended).

Yes, it sounds 'ballsy' and purposeful, but what 'gets' me with it is that, precisely the opposite to what you're reporting at the moment, I find it the most musically satisfying deck I've ever had in the 25+ years I've been into hi-fi, in that time using all manner of turntables, some of them costing many times the price of the 1210, even when extensively modified.

The reason for that is because the Technics (when judiciously modified) imposes so little of its own character on the sound, simply allowing the arm and cartridge to do their job as accurately as possible, and thus in the process extracting every ounce of detail and emotive element from recorded music. It does this by providing incredible insight into whatever recording it is presented with. This is what I hear and enjoy every time I use mine. The result of this, and contrary to what you're describing, is that the Technics demands your attention, making you want to listen to it because the sheer levels of musical communication it affords the listener is so God-damn addictive!

The important thing to remember here is that if we're talking about genuine high fidelity, fundamentally the most important consideration for any turntable is highly accurate speed stability, so that the correct foundation is given for music to be reproduced as faithfully as possible. For this to be achieved successfully the turntable itself cannot have distinctive colorations of its own which in turn impose themselves on the music.

This is precisely what is wrong with T/Ts like the LP12 and other low-mass belt-drives of their ilk because you can clearly hear the effect that their inherent colorations have on the music they reproduce. People then incorrectly attribute these colorations to the turntable 'playing the tune' and making it sound 'musical', or some such nonsense, when in fact what is happening is that their ears are simply being seduced by euphonic coloration; the effect of which might be considered by some as enjoyable but it's not hi-fi in its true sense.

My suspicion though, and it's only a guess, is that even after adding the Time Step PSU the Technics will still not 'hit the spot' for you in quite the same way as the Pioneer, or even the Linn you used, simply because you enjoy the particular way that these turntables colour the music. That's fine because ultimately it's you who has to enjoy the way your system sounds, and in turn how it presents music, but it's something quite different from what I value in a turntable, and that's most certainly not "wham-bam" disco thrills. A modified Techy is about *so* much more than that...

Anyway, we'll see what happens when you fit the Time Step. We await the results with great interest! ;)

Marco.

Gromit

02-02-2009, 17:41

My suspicion though, and it's only a guess, is that even after adding the Time Step PSU the Technics will still not 'hit the spot' for you in quite the same way as the Pioneer, or even the Linn you used, simply because you enjoy the particular way these turntables colour the music.

Marco.

I'd agree that the Linn does have a habit of colouring music in a certain way, and perhaps the Pioneer might do to a much smaller extent, but all I will say re the PL71 is that it's the closest I've ever heard (in my rig) to the colours one gets from live music. For example, the way certain tonic keys have colour (some are dark, some bright), this all comes across on the Pioneer which is a neat trick. The only other turntable I've heard do this was a Brinkmann, but that didn't cost 80 quid ;)

As to colouration vs the original recording? Unless any of us have been there at the original event we're never going to know what is and isn't absolutely correct, and even then our aural memory is never going to be 100% reliable. I spend enough to time listening to live instruments (basically every single day of my working life) to know when something's plain 'wrong' yet there are times when I can shut certain colourations out because the equipment lets through the other stuff which, depending on one's viewpoint, are just as if not more important to the musical whole.

As to the show - I'm just going along to spin some records, blow some of the cobwebs out of the system and enjoy talking about music, and have a bit of a laugh of course. Before then I'll know whether I'll be taking the 1210 or the Pioneer (I only have enough room in the car to take one source component as I'm hoping to take 2 pairs of speakers). I'm actually hoping that I fall down on the side of the Technics - seriously - simply because I genuinely do want to like it. Anyway, we'll be a little closer to some kind of decision by this weekend.

Gromit

02-02-2009, 19:11

Just a note to add to the blog...

Was chatting to Peter at Noteworthy Audio last week and getting his advice on fitting a 103 into a Rega arm. I know it's not a particularly happy marriage (although for some reason it worked really well in the RB300 on my Gyro - must have been a 'one-off') but it can be got-around by a little imagination. Peter's a big 103 fan and has done a lot of experimenting with getting it to tick in some 'difficult' arms.

I've used John's 6g headshell ballast but put a small piece of copper wire along the top of the cartridge in a kind of 'S' shape which allows for a small amount of de-coupling. It actually works quite well.

It's slightly more laid-back than might be ideal (and the counterweight set-up with the extra weights John made for the PL71 isn't ideal either) but it sounds pretty good.

Gromit

04-02-2009, 13:50

Blog update...

The Time-Step arrived this morning so got round to fitting it after lunch. Didn't take long, approx 15 mins all-in and was very straightforward. If I decide not to keep the Technics it may take someone with better soldering skills than I to re-set everything (the 3 small wires to the chassis mount transistor whatsit will need doing neater than I can manage) but apart from that it'd be ok.

The psu has definitely made a difference, not as night & day as changing the arm but its effect on the turntable is clearly obvious - basically the usual stuff you get from cleaning up the supply i.e. less noise, quieter background, more solidity and greater clarity. Will report back later when it's had a chance to settle down a bit.

Marco

04-02-2009, 14:52

Gromit

04-02-2009, 15:07

Nice one, Richard :)

Leave it plugged in with the T/T platter spinning (when not listening to music) for a few days to allow the new components to burn-in before making judgement.

Aside from that I think that your point elsewhere about the Rega arm was a valid one.

Enjoy, dude, and keep us posted :cool:

Marco.

Indeed - I'm going to give it a decent amount of time to come up with a conclusion on this one. The turntable does sound more 'mature' for want of a better word, as though the sound has grown up very slightly. There's undoubtedly more low-level detail on offer and a greater sense of 'occasion' (an analogy which Tom Fletcher always used and I feel something quite tangible, despite it seeming rather abstract on the surface).

I'm still going to send the arm up to Johnnie, much as I love the RB's on the right turntable, I think as a combination with the 1210 it's not really ideal. It would be interesting though to try the Tecchy's own arm with the new psu in place I feel. I may try it tomorrow before the arm goes in the post up to Scotland. :)

Will let you guys know how it all goes.

Gromit

04-02-2009, 16:11

It would be interesting though to try the Tecchy's own arm with the new psu in place I feel. I may try it tomorrow before the arm goes in the post up to Scotland. :)

Will let you guys know how it all goes.

Just put the OEM arm back on - took 26 mins start to finish. :)

Marco

04-02-2009, 16:14

Gromit

04-02-2009, 16:57

It'll be interesting to see how the Techy arm compares, given that it's unmodified... Make sure that you use the Sumiko headshell, though.

What's Johnnie going to do to your Techy arm, then? :)

Marco.

The Tecchy's headhsell has never been out of its packet...bleurgghh..ghastly thing it is. ;)

It sounds good - a lot softer than the AO arm, with somewhat flabby and one-note bass, but it's more 'together' as though it's giving the turntable an easier time, not exciting resonances in the system. It also doesn't like going loud and if the scoring gets heavy it throws in the towel a bit earlier. The fireworks aren't as loud, but they're a tad prettier....if you catch my drift.

Johnnie's doing the full re-wire, bearing check and lube plus a nice big f*ck-off counterweight so I can get the 103 working properly with its 5kg of headshell ballast. :)

The psu's warming up - you can tell there's more rhythmic freedom now compared to the slightly 'one-trick-pony' presentation the turntable had before using its own psu. RD always reckoned one of the reasons why the Pioneer sounds so good is that it has a much larger, more tightly regulated power supply than the std Technics one. On today's evidence I'd say he was right.

MartinT

04-02-2009, 17:28

Excellent changes for the better, Richard. You've definitely got the TimeStep improvements that we've all heard although your arm adventures have me flummoxed as my Jelco sounds like neither your Rega nor Technics arm descriptions.

You might want to try the plastic inner pieces removal - large tray covering the electronics and smaller motor cover. I'm quite impressed with this mod now that I've been listening for a couple of days, the deck is more open and dynamics even sharper. In fact, dynamics are now challenging my Ayre disc player and that's a hell of a compliment.

Gromit

04-02-2009, 17:53

Excellent changes for the better, Richard. You've definitely got the TimeStep improvements that we've all heard although your arm adventures have me flummoxed as my Jelco sounds like neither your Rega nor Technics arm descriptions.

Hi Martin - I'm beginning to think that, depending on what sort of sonic character one prefers, the 1210's performance can largely be tailored by choice of tonearm. The Rega (well...Johnnie's fabulous re-building of it) arm has gob-smacking dynamics and huge amounts of detail but is a little 'too much of a good thing' I think. For some it will be wonderful; for me I listen to far too many different types of music for it to be the one-arm solution.

I would love to try a unipivot on it at some point - John P (I don't know if he posts on AoS) has a huge amount of experience with many different tonearms on the Technics and rates the Roksan Nima very highly indeed. I'm a big fan of unipivots myself - there is IME a certain magic about them; any slight softness in the bass would be cleaned up (or balanced) by the Technics' bass grip.

Marco

05-02-2009, 10:41

Hi Richard,

I'm beginning to think that, depending on what sort of sonic character one prefers, the 1210's performance can largely be tailored by choice of tonearm. The Rega (well...Johnnie's fabulous re-building of it) arm has gob-smacking dynamics and huge amounts of detail but is a little 'too much of a good thing' I think.

I think that you're hearing all the right things; obviously you have a good pair of ears, although based on my experience of the above and of the Technics in general, I would put it slightly differently. I agree with the way you've described J7's reworked Rega, but like any other tonearms, Regas have an inherent 'house sound' which will always exist regardless of any modifications that are carried out, short of remodelling the physical properties of the arm itself.

In my experience, Rega arms have always represented excellent value for money and are a reliable, although perhaps somewhat 'safe', choice. However, their 'house sound', IMO, can lend a rather 'matter-of-fact' presentation to music, which when partnered with a turntable that doesn't possess an overt sonic character of its own can make for a somewhat 'bland' rendition of some types of music played.

However, when a Rega arm is suitably 'Johnnie-fied', as you say, this turbo-charges the tonal characteristics of the arm to quite spectacular effect, but when partnering it with a cartridge like the Dorian, which is already a rather 'peppy' sounding beast, it can give results that are a little too 'full-on', tipping the balance into 'overkill', which is precisely what you've reported. Basically, I think that it's the other way round from what you're suggesting - the deck is showing up the characteristics of the arm and cartridge, rather than vice versa.

I also suspect that when used with a 1210 the likes of an OC-9 or AT33PTG would be a better match for the J7-modified Rega. With the Jelco SA-750D and 103SA, I'm getting very different results with my 1210 to what you're describing with your Rega and Dorian, which I think says it all. The performance of any turntable will always reflect the sonic sum of its constituent parts... It'll be interesting to see how you think the Technics arm compares to your Rega on its return from being modified by Johnnie.

The thing for me about the Technics, and I've said this many times before, is that once a top-notch offboard PSU has been fitted, which maximises the efficiency of the motor unit, and high quality support feet have been added (such as Isonoes), a decent mat, and also a good quality mains lead, what you've essentially got is as neutral a platform as possible in which to hear the qualities of your chosen arm and cartridge, and this is precisely what you want from a high-end hi-fi turntable.

If you're attempting to create some form of 'sonic marriage' between the deck and the arm by mixing their respective sonic signatures then you're unlikely to obtain the result desired with all types of music. It will work with some types, but fail with others. Quite simply, like with any recipe, it's always best to start with the highest quality basic ingredients and then add more 'flavour' later, than to begin with something that's already highly flavour-enhanced, and when adding the other necessary ingredients to finish the dish, thereby creating more flavour, consequently 'over-egging the pudding', if you get my meaning...

I would love to try a unipivot on it at some point - John P (I don't know if he posts on AoS) has a huge amount of experience with many different tonearms on the Technics and rates the Roksan Nima very highly indeed. I'm a big fan of unipivots myself - there is IME a certain magic about them; any slight softness in the bass would be cleaned up (or balanced) by the Technics' bass grip.

I agree, and would consider a Nima as an ideal partner for the Techy. However, like with any other arm, the modified Techy will simply showcase the inherent sonic characteristics of the Nima, as it does with the Rega, and therefore whether it works successfully as a partnership will largely depend on the cartridge used. The bass grip and control you refer to of the Technics is simply a by-product of the highly accurate speed stability of its motor unit, rather than any inherent sonic signature or coloration in the deck itself.

The fact that so many belt-drives lack the bass grip of the Technics is because they get this aspect of the design so fundamentally wrong! ;)

Anyway, keep us posted of your thoughts as the Time Step PSU burns-in fully :)

Marco.

Marco

05-02-2009, 17:29

Oh, I see that you've done so now on Wigwam :lolsign:

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=34354&forum_id=7&jump_to=584647#p584647

Nice write-up indeed, Richard. I'm glad you've found out for yourself that the Time Step PSU makes a considerable difference (as does the KAB PS-1200) to the performance of the Techy :)

Uncle Marco did say so... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

MartinT

05-02-2009, 17:46

"They should use the Time Step psu on the 1210's in night clubs - no one would ever be off the dance floor"

Oh yes, I *do* like that comment (sorry for the cross-forum quote). I'm playing Fear of the Dark by Gordon Giltrap, a well worn favourite. I can safely say I have never heard this album get up and go like it does at the moment. The macrodynamics (especially drums) and microdynamics (all the string work on his acoustic guitar) make for a delicious experience played loud.

Gromit

05-02-2009, 18:21

Hi guys - yes, was going to do a little report for this crew but now Marco's linked to it I don't really need to ;)

Well chuffed with the new sparky box, works a treat, and in fact should have followed my own hunch from the outset, that I should've started with the psu, not the arm.

Here's a little pic anyway of the rig with the TS sat over yonder side away from the turntable...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3070.jpg

Yes I know it's the Lyra in the 1210 but it does work really rather well - better than it ought tbh, and just makes the deck sound even funkier :smoking:

Oh...(edit)...if anyone's wondering what's holding the 1210 up I'm using SolidTech Isoclear sprung feet under it and am knocked-out at how well they work. It's quite wobbly but it lets the system go so much louder without losing grip. The cartridge tracks better too - obviously less outside disturbance getting through.

Mike

05-02-2009, 18:33

Soooo.... IS it the dogs bollox yet?

You see I'm a bit lost at sea and don't know which way to go. :(

See: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2022

MartinT

05-02-2009, 19:13

So you're back on the Technics arm for the moment? As for the Solid Tech supports, well I fully approve :)

Jason P

05-02-2009, 19:39

...if anyone's wondering what's holding the 1210 up I'm using SolidTech Isoclear sprung feet under it and am knocked-out at how well they work.

Interesting this, as they look like they're in a tripod formation... I was under the impression that the foot position on the tecchy was designed with very specific energy dispertion in mind... not a criticism, as it obviously yields benefits, but an observation...

Jason

Gromit

05-02-2009, 19:44

Interesting this, as they look like they're in a tripod formation... I was under the impression that the foot position on the tecchy was designed with very specific energy dispertion in mind...

Jason

Hi Jason - simple reason for this is that I only have 3 of them. :doh:

Jason P

09-02-2009, 11:39

:lolsign:

Ever get that feeling of 'I shouldn't have posted that'?? :doh:

I guessed as much about 30 seconds after I hit send.

Still, it'd be interesting to see if 4 'correctly' postioned ones make any appreciable difference to the sound...

Jason

Gromit

10-02-2009, 22:59

Still, it'd be interesting to see if 4 'correctly' postioned ones make any appreciable difference to the sound...

Jason

It would indeed Jason. :)

I've put the OA RB251 back on today as I'd got a spare couple of hours. Took plenty of time getting the azimuth right plus I made sure that instead of using nylocs, I used normal threaded nuts on the arm board's bolts and nipped them up just enough to grip, and used wide diameter washers so that any load through the bolts isn't too localised. It's made a huge difference - more than I would've thought tbh.

Other little experiment was to put the PL71's mat on it - it's a fairly stiff affair, about 5mm thick, but it does damp the platter well and has added focus, particularly at the frequency extremes.

Ammonite Audio

11-02-2009, 17:54

Sgt.Pepper

11-02-2009, 18:34

Would be very interesting to hear your opinions when you get your stock arm back,any other tweaks being done at the same time like counter weight etc ?

I'm waiting for a delivery of an SL1210,used to have one a while back but sold it to fund my pre-amp kit,very nice TT to use and regretted selling it.

Gromit

11-02-2009, 21:20

Richard

My (nearly new) SL-1210 was fitted with an OL Rega armboard by its previous owner. Not having played with it myself, I am having a little bit of trouble understanding how the azimuth can be out, as there does not appear to be any adjustment in it - it is bolted firmly in place. Can you explain a bit further?

Also, when you refer to the arm board's bolts, do you mean the ones attaching the outer part of the board to the chassis, or the inner ones holding the plate that the arm pillar goes through?

Sorry to sound a dimwit!

No dimwit apology needed - I'd be asking the same! :)

I was getting a little frustrated that I couldn't get the 251's azimuth spot-on, so resorted to using varying thicknesses of tiny washers (which was a complete PITA) under each 'foot' of the Rega's 3-point mounting. I eventually got it just about right but hadn't actually checked the planarity of the OL arm board.

So...

I borrowed a friend's (very expensive) bubble spirit level the other day and stripped the arm off leaving just the board in place. Hey presto - the board's out from the platter and plinth. Solution was to get some very small, thin strips of card and 'pack out' the underside of the arm board, next to the rear-most bolt mounting to the plinth. Result is that it now sits perfectly, plus the 251 can be bolted onto the board without using fiddly little washers under each of its mounting points. Upside is that it sounds better too. :)

The bolts I was referring to are the 3 arm-mount ones (they're small cross head screws actually with 6mm nuts). I used the supplied washers, plus a further, larger diameter washer on each screw. The normal threaded nuts are easier to tighten more carefully as one can 'feel' when they're done up just enough. Problem with the nylocs that, although they shouldn't undo, it's possible to over-tighten them which may not, I feel, be sonically beneficial.

Ammonite Audio

11-02-2009, 21:32

Ah, I understand now. My arm has the old Rega mount, but now I shall check whether the OL arm plate is true to the platter and plinth. When the Technics arm comes back I will have to dismantle the armboard anyway, so it's a good opportunity to get it right for when I compare one arm with the other! Vagaries of OL arm plates aside, I am very tempted to try a Nima, which only requires the TT to be level!

Peter Stockwell

12-02-2009, 09:28

I borrowed a friend's (very expensive) bubble spirit level the other day and stripped the arm off leaving just the board in place. Hey presto - the board's out from the platter and plinth. Solution was to get some very small, thin strips of card and 'pack out' the underside of the arm board, next to the rear-most bolt mounting to the plinth. Result is that it now sits perfectly, plus the 251 can be bolted onto the board without using fiddly little washers under each of its mounting points. Upside is that it sounds better too. :)

The bolts I was referring to are the 3 arm-mount ones (they're small cross head screws actually with 6mm nuts). I used the supplied washers, plus a further, larger diameter washer on each screw. The normal threaded nuts are easier to tighten more carefully as one can 'feel' when they're done up just enough. Problem with the nylocs that, although they shouldn't undo, it's possible to over-tighten them which may not, I feel, be sonically beneficial.

Richard,

Interesting stuff, I have an 8" machinist level, which is accurate to something insane like 1 in 10000, or maybe even more insane, I can't rememeber now, I use this for ultimate kit levelling. When I can be bothered to do it, because for certin things like the stand shelfs, they are not made to that tolerance and where I put the level on the board is going to change the result!

But I can smell a mini machinists level coming to get the armboard fixing on the Teccie absolutely level when the the platter is level!

Yikes, I must be crazy!

cheers

Ammonite Audio

12-02-2009, 12:26

Ooh! The Time Step PSU has arrived! Solder burns to the carpet and dogs this evening, methinks!

Gromit

12-02-2009, 15:32

Solder burns to the carpet and dogs this evening, methinks!

You'll be fine - if I can do one blob of solder without burning the house down I'm sure anyone can. :)

Look forward to reading what you think of it. Mine sounded really good from the off, after which it improved markedly over the next 48 hours at which point it seems to settle.

Ammonite Audio

12-02-2009, 19:09

The dogs survived! Installation of the Time Step PSU was straightforward, but I left the transformer in-situ (the instructions suggest going the whole hog and removing it even though the mains cable is taken out). All is well, and a record is now playing. The presentation of the sound is immediately different - rather harder, I feel; however there are nuances and harmonics clearly audible that I cannot recall hearing before (even on my old HD Spacedeck). So, I shall leave it running for a few days before listening critically, by which time my J7 upgraded Technics arm should be here to add to the fun.

I took the opportunity to check the level of my OL armboard, and it was not level with the platter. A few minutes of cursing and fiddling with washers has fixed the problem. The change in the overall character of the sound is probably due to this rather than the Time Step PSU.

Next quest - suitable threaded adaptors to allow me to screw some Stillpoints into the Technics' chassis. Why do the Americans have to use archaic Imperial threads:scratch:?

Update: Stillpoints balls locate quite nicely in the base of the SL-1210, with height adjustment provided by Stillpoints Inverse Risers - BIG difference in musical flow and overall enjoyment!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/Sl-1210/DSCF0373.jpg

Marco

13-02-2009, 20:11

Shuggie, why not start a 'blog' of your own on a separate thread? If you want I can move your post accordingly.

Congrats on the Time Step, btw. I'm sure once it runs in will start to really do the business :)

Marco.

Ammonite Audio

13-02-2009, 22:33

Marco

13-02-2009, 22:46

Hi Shuggie,

Nope - nothing to do with hijacking, matey. I just thought you might fancy your own space that's all :)

It might make it easier to follow what both you and Richard are up to rather than things getting jumbled up together. I quite like the idea of each member's T/T project having its own 'blog', but what you do is up to you.

Marco.

muffinman

13-02-2009, 22:47

Shuggie,
Marco wasn't having a pop. AOS is a teccy friendly forum so it's nice to hear of peoples different routes in their own rights. :)

Mike

13-02-2009, 23:24

Teccy's are poo... I hate them! :mad:

Not that I'm bitter about my money going down the bog when I tried to buy one or anything, like... :steam:

Sgt.Pepper

14-02-2009, 00:55

Teccy's are poo... I hate them! :mad:

Not that I'm bitter about my money going down the bog when I tried to buy one or anything, like... :steam:

Dont hate the player,hate the seller :punch:

I feel your pain Mike,bum deal that.

Gromit

14-02-2009, 08:11

Marco

If you feel that I have somehow hijacked Gromit's thread, then I am sorry; however since it was this very thread that inspired me to get the Technics in the first place, followed in short order by the Time Step PSU, I thought that my experiences were complementary to Gromit's. No matter - if I have anything further to say, then I shall do as you suggest and start a new thread.

No apology needed Shuggie - certainly not where I'm concerned. :)

Will be interested to hear of your TS exploits as it runs-in (mine seemed to take around 48 hours for it to level off).

Ammonite Audio

14-02-2009, 12:19

Chaps, sorry that I got the wrong end of Marco's stick as it were.

................Will be interested to hear of your TS exploits as it runs-in (mine seemed to take around 48 hours for it to level off).

I have left it running while I'm away for the weekend, so hopefully it will be run in by the time I get back. I picked up a few used LPs today, so they will present a good excuse for listening to unfamiliar material (once they've been cleaned on the record cleaning machine).

Since we're chatting, what are your thought so far about mats? I know that you have had unexpectedly good results from a Ringmat; however my experience has been mixed - specifically the Ringmat seems to cause excessive vinyl roar on the unsupported outer part of the LP, even though it undoubtedly has Shining Parts elsewhere. That roar was so distracting that I have stopped using it. Present favourite is the SRM Tech acrylic mat, but it needs trimming to avoid the Technics' platter lip. Stuart at SRM cannot do a version of the mat specially modded for the SL-1210 (as they are machined in large batches), but has suggested putting one of his thin silicone mats between the acrylic and the Technics platter. He has some 'seconds' available for £20. That could work, and maybe for the sake of £20 it's worth a go, but I'd value your thoughts here. Experiments with various rubber mats have not been successful, but maybe I should try the SRM mat on top of the Technics rubber mat, particularly as this would give plenty of scope for VTA adjustment on the Tecnoarm.

No doubt, whatever works with the Tecnoarm may not work with the Technics arm, but therein lies the fun of experimentation!