View Full Version : Power Amp, Valve or SS?
ursus262
03-03-2012, 21:07
I am considering getting a power amp to partner my Naim Uniti as my next upgrade, the obvious choice being the Naim NAP 250.
Just recently, though, I was wondering if I might benefit from using a valve amp instead. I don't know much about them, and I am looking for something that gives about 80wpc and preferably something that won't break the bank. I know a lot of you on here have valve amps and, not knowing much about them, I am looking for some advice about which ones I should audition. A vintage amp would be all the better because a new one could be expensive and I wonder if anyone has any suggestions.
Dave
The Grand Wazoo
03-03-2012, 21:18
You say you're looking for 80 wpc - why is this figure the one you've chosen?
A little probing around the question might help. What speakers do you plan to use, what sort of music do you like & how big is your room?
ursus262
03-03-2012, 21:42
Well, there are all sorts of things going around in my head at the moment. The Naim, as it currently stands, puts out 50wpc and I thought a more powerful amp would give better control over the speakers. My speakers are Monitor Audio RS6s with 6ohm impedance and my lounge is pretty average of the type you would expect for a semi-detatched house I suppose.
The speakers, at 91db, are pretty sensitive, it would appear. I like both classical and dance music!
Stratmangler
03-03-2012, 23:47
The speakers, at 91db, are pretty sensitive, it would appear. I like both classical and dance music!
Only relatively so.
Of much more importance is the impedence shift at certain frequencies.
The MAs, being a bass reflex design usually draw more current with low frequencies, and it's the additional current draw that can cause an over demand on the main PSU.
Which means that the speakers don't get driven properly, and the sound quality suffers as a result.
audioquiz
04-03-2012, 03:37
I am considering getting a power amp to partner my Naim Uniti as my next upgrade, the obvious choice being the Naim NAP 250.
Just recently, though, I was wondering if I might benefit from using a valve amp instead. I don't know much about them, and I am looking for something that gives about 80wpc and preferably something that won't break the bank. I know a lot of you on here have valve amps and, not knowing much about them, I am looking for some advice about which ones I should audition. A vintage amp would be all the better because a new one could be expensive and I wonder if anyone has any suggestions.
Dave
you won't go wrong with a valve amp forget the pwpc its a myth, quality over quantity thats mt beleif, asl any valve amp user. hope this helps?
chris@panteg
04-03-2012, 07:18
Try an audition a few if you can ? There are some fine valve amps about but most need a speaker with an even response and easy load , I think Noel Keywood tried some Icon amps with your MA's some time ago with good results but they were the 845 mono's I believe so not cheap .
Dominic Harper
04-03-2012, 08:11
Don't forget. I do some very nice tube amps that would be right up your street!
The Black Adder
04-03-2012, 10:05
I am considering getting a power amp to partner my Naim Uniti as my next upgrade, the obvious choice being the Naim NAP 250.
Just recently, though, I was wondering if I might benefit from using a valve amp instead. I don't know much about them, and I am looking for something that gives about 80wpc and preferably something that won't break the bank. I know a lot of you on here have valve amps and, not knowing much about them, I am looking for some advice about which ones I should audition. A vintage amp would be all the better because a new one could be expensive and I wonder if anyone has any suggestions.
Dave
How big is your room, Dave?
ursus262
04-03-2012, 10:28
How big is your room, Dave?
Well, its about, I would say, 3 to 3.5 metres square. A typical living room in a semi I guess.
http://avondaleaudio.com/power-amplifiers-comparison/
The Black Adder
04-03-2012, 10:38
Well, its about, I would say, 3 to 3.5 metres square. A typical living room in a semi I guess.
That's a tad smaller than mine being 4m square. I think 80wpc is overkill. You would go deaf using 30wpc in a room that size using quite sensitive speakers.
My amp is 30wpc and I like it LOUD sometimes! With lots of bass. (when the wife n kids are out)
ursus262
04-03-2012, 10:55
Same here. I get home from work relatively early as I live only ten minutes' walk from the office. The neighbours don't get home until 8pm, and my partner only a short while before that...... so I indulge myself i an immersive experience! :lol:
Thanks everyone for the advice as you've given me some good ideas. Dominic: I'm bringing my turntable to you for service in the Spring and might have a listen while I'm there if that's OK, and the Avondale amps sound interesting too.
Stratmangler's comments about the MA's current draw is interesting as I wasn't aware of the issue. I'll certainly bear that in mind, especially when considering how the power supplies will cope.
Dave
http://www.stellavox.com/PW1.html
If you can find one.
And if you can and it doesn't look audiophile enough for you coz it doesn't glow in the dark and look cor, let me know coz I want a couple. :)
Course, if you've got a few quid to chuck at it and dont do that dragging and semi precious stone around a groove bit then this will rock your world, prolly next doors world too, and maybe even a few more down the street.
The best commericially availible amp I've heard to date.
http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier
Oh,just realised, you might have wanted a bit of audiophile jewlery......maybe forget the above then, they're built to sound good, not look pretty ;)
Messing about with alternatives with a UNITI as a partner is asking for trouble and a very unhappy OP in my opinion.
Just get on the Naim upgrade ladder. their current amps aren't bad at all, should tame the MA's a little and give more drive in the bass. Ploddering around with valves COULD be a hiding to nothing just now and I for one certainly wouldn't recommend that option at the present time. Some SERIOUS listening to alternative systems (including speakers) needs to be done first methinks.
It may not be too late to jump in the car and drive over to Scalford Hall for a listen to different system flavours, albeit in hideous surroundings. Can still teach you summat though.
ursus262
04-03-2012, 11:29
Course, if you've got a few quid to chuck at it and dont do that dragging and semi precious stone around a groove bit then this will rock your world, prolly next doors world too, and maybe even a few more down the street.
The best commericially availible amp I've heard to date.
http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier
Oh,just realised, you might have wanted a bit of audiophile jewlery......maybe forget the above then, they're built to sound good, not look pretty ;)
:lol:
I was thinking about the sound, although I must confess to being impressed at the sight of valves lighting up.... brings back memories of my youth when my mum turned on the wireless on top of the fridge!
Dominic Harper
04-03-2012, 11:32
I look forward to meeting you Dave. Tea and cakes and some good music guaranteed.
ursus262
04-03-2012, 11:33
Messing about with alternatives with a UNITI as a partner is asking for trouble and a very unhappy OP in my opinion.
Just get on the Naim upgrade ladder. their current amps aren't bad at all, should tame the MA's a little and give more drive in the bass. Ploddering around with valves COULD be a hiding to nothing just now and I for one certainly wouldn't recommend that option at the present time. Some SERIOUS listening to alternative systems (including speakers) needs to be done first methinks.
It may not be too late to jump in the car and drive over to Scalford Hall for a listen to different system flavours, albeit in hideous surroundings. Can still teach you summat though.
Scalford Hall.... is that ooop north? In fact, does the National Grid even go up that far? :lol:
Ali Tait
04-03-2012, 11:37
Cheeky!
ursus262
04-03-2012, 11:41
Cheeky!
:D
Seriously though, I am going to keep my options open and listen to all of them. As for replacing my speakers, well, that's not an option at the moment because I actually do like the MAs very much and although they will go eventually, I feel the need to get the amplification sorted first. The Uniti amp is very capable, of course, but it's about taking it to the next level.
Ali Tait
04-03-2012, 11:45
Well I know it does coz I built some of it! :ner:
Oh arr, keep forgetting. :doh:
Best not to swap power amps around.
There are Watts made by Naim an they're very specially made by lil pixies in a cottage.
Then you've got them digital Watts.....nasty cold sounding Watts these so best avoided.
Course, need to watch out for those glass Watts mind coz they're very fragile and the fairies in the tubes get very upset if there's a transistior in their home.
Better not even consider those T Class Watts, mainly because they have ahorrible tendency to run out at the frequency extreems.
So, best not change anything like Dave says and buy a differnent pair of speakers. That should sort it. ;)
ursus262
04-03-2012, 12:04
Oh arr, keep forgetting. :doh:
Best not to swap power amps around.
There are Watts made by Naim an they're very specially made by lil pixies in a cottage.
Then you've got them digital Watts.....nasty cold sounding Watts these so best avoided.
Course, need to watch out for those glass Watts mind coz they're very fragile and the fairies in the tubes get very upset if there's a transistior in their home.
Better not even consider those T Class Watts, mainly because they have ahorrible tendency to run out at the frequency extreems.
So, best not change anything like Dave says and buy a differnent pair of speakers. That should sort it. ;)
Honestly, what are you like? :lol:
I do actually like my speakers - they just need a bit more, well, oomph! Does that make sense? I need something that will actually take charge of them and slap them around a bit and to tell them who's boss!
Sry Dave, can't help it. :doh: :D
Erm, Avondale then given they put right what Naim fecked up.
ursus262
04-03-2012, 12:39
Erm, Avondale then given they put right what Naim fecked up.
Really? What is is the issue with Naim amps then?
ursus262
04-03-2012, 12:51
I also wonder if Valve amps need an "easy" load as Chris previously suggested. I am wondering if I am opening up a can of worms with my MAs
Dunno, somat to do with the pixies apparently. :eyebrows:
Avondale have gained some of their excellent reputation by both repairing and upgrading Naim equipment.
It's been a long time since I had a Naim amp. I could never justify the cost of most of the Naim kit.
I have heard a few bits of Avondale kit over the years but I must admit, none of the new range.
My recommendations above aren't really based on sound quality. I'm afraid I belong very much to the a Watt is a Watt when it comes to power amps. I look for build quality, reliability, speed, service, output, power supply build, did I mention speed.
There's a guy who will give you rather a lot of money if you can tell the differnce between one power amp and another. ;) Best not go there though because people here get upset.
The Black Adder
04-03-2012, 12:58
Well, there are all sorts of things going around in my head at the moment. The Naim, as it currently stands, puts out 50wpc and I thought a more powerful amp would give better control over the speakers. My speakers are Monitor Audio RS6s with 6ohm impedance and my lounge is pretty average of the type you would expect for a semi-detatched house I suppose.
The speakers, at 91db, are pretty sensitive, it would appear. I like both classical and dance music!
A Croft 7R...
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/DSC05757.jpg
Believe me - that will give the RS6's a good work out. It has bass and dynamics in spades. I like Chemical Brothers, Goldfrapp as well as The Beatles, and other Psychedelia and funk. I'm sooooooo happy with it and my version is a lower powered version to match my Tannoys.
You don't need lots of power for sensitive speakers, I've recently learned this. It's all about the regulation of the power and how the amp uses it.
I like the RS6's.. much better than the RS8's.
Give Adrian at Audio Flair a shout or ask Glenn direct. He will put you straight.
ursus262
04-03-2012, 13:19
That's a couple of whopping transformers in there, Joe! Must be a good visual indication of the amp's capabilities.
ursus262
04-03-2012, 13:43
I've also noticed it's a hybrid design, as I can see power transistors on a heatsink in the middle. Does that have specific advantages?
Perhaps one transformer is for the valve heaters and the other for signal.
Oh arr, keep forgetting. :doh:
Best not to swap power amps around.
There are Watts made by Naim an they're very specially made by lil pixies in a cottage.
Then you've got them digital Watts.....nasty cold sounding Watts these so best avoided.
Course, need to watch out for those glass Watts mind coz they're very fragile and the fairies in the tubes get very upset if there's a transistior in their home.
Better not even consider those T Class Watts, mainly because they have ahorrible tendency to run out at the frequency extreems.
So, best not change anything like Dave says and buy a differnent pair of speakers. That should sort it. ;)
#
Oi John, will you STOP having a sarcastic jibe at me and actually THINK about what I posted there :steam: What's the matter with you sir?
The OP has a fuggin UNITI - [edit] WITH A FRIGGIN' NAIM badge on the front. That means, he's dismissed all the hairshirt options which would have saved him thousands and gone the safe but expensive one. Adding a power amp may well improve the sound (would take much in all honesty), but going for summat totally different would look truly horrible and bring about another spending round, getting all sorts of opinions from well meaning bods on subjective forums who haven't a clue apart from the little systems they've carefully assembled to sound good for them in their room only.
FFS, I've been the Naim route, sold and owned loads, listened extensively to the current stuff and find nothing there to change the ancient Crown D series amps I still admire and use (and which still exceeded their spec after thirty years and didn't need re-capping, although I did the supply ones) , even after all this time.. The OP hasn't come anywhere near reaching that point yet I believe (apologies for referring to him in the third party here) and may find a genuine step-up in sonics by adding one of Naims smaller power amps, which hold their value well, are well and solidly made and generally utterly reliable for ten years or so, by which time the caps often get shagged, especially if left powered 24/7.
As for the Monitor Audios, I don't like the sound of drivers such as these and haven't heard an MA speaker in years that I could use and own at home, let alone listen to.
Now, the OP wants to improve the sound of his stereo system. What he's got cost him a fair whack, so why not consider a Naim power amp to beef up what he has? Explanation enough for you John?
I'll try Dave. ;) It really isn't meant to be as personal as it may read. Just my poor attempts at humour again.
The thing is the OP seems to like his speakers.
I agree about the UNITI but he seems to like that as well.
I believe he asked about an amp with clout while also enquiring whether valves might do the job.
I've posted some amps with clout. Okay, maybe not valve amps and certainly not Croft mainly because I haven't heard any of the new Croft amps and nor am i ever likely to because nobody i know uses them.
Nah, lets finish this.
What I haven't done Dave is tell him his speakers are crap as you seem happy to do.
I didn't suggest he used a Hi Fi show to hear what are often subtle differnces between various componants. Bit like listening to kit in a Hi Fi showroom. It wont sound anything like that when you get it home.
I didn't go on to tell him he had been ripped off with the UNTITI either, or tell all the mere mortals here who've carefully assembled a satisfactory system in their homes where they listen to it that I, who've spent years listening to kit (but apparently not heard much) know all the answers and they're just deaf muppets.
So Dave, if I come accross a bit rude to you, you'll have to forgive me.
The Black Adder
04-03-2012, 15:55
I've also noticed it's a hybrid design, as I can see power transistors on a heatsink in the middle. Does that have specific advantages?
I wouldn't know the workings but it certainly has punch and very natural. The standard 7R is 50 to 55wpc.
I found the likes of Naim a little overzealous in the bass department which can be perceived as raw power but that's the way they characterise them I suppose. It was a while ago though, maybe things have changed since.
ursus262
04-03-2012, 17:34
#
The OP has a fuggin UNITI - a cheap computer, dressed in VERY expensive clothes!!!!! WITH A FRIGGIN' NAIM badge on the front.
Charming!
Charming!
Sorry, I made a mistake about the cheap computer thing and have edited it out of my post above.
In an attempt to make up a bit, here's a link to the Stereophile review of the Uniti with measurements too in case anyone's interested...
http://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-uniti-cd-playerreceiver-page-3
Since you're a Lutonite, I'd probably suggest a trip to HiFi daves (hang on a minute Mr Dunn before you lambast me again), so you can try a Croft power amp, or a Naim alternative to see how you feel, since there's interest in Glenns product and Dave is your nearest dealer...
Since you're a Lutonite, I'd probably suggest a trip to HiFi daves (hang on a minute Mr Dunn before you lambast me again)
He's away for a couple of weeks, so fill yer boots!
ursus262
04-03-2012, 20:40
Thanks for that, Dave. For me, the Uniti is just ideal for the situation that I'm in. I don't want the living room littered with lots of hi-fi gear, and prefer a more, well, integrated solution and the Uniti does it all very well for a price that I can afford to pay.
Where is Hi Fi Daves? Edit: I've discovered he's in Saffron Walden. Understand he does Neat speakers as well. Shame he's not still in Radlett! I could have jumped on the train.
Oh, and it's "Lutonian" if you don't mind :lol:
Speaking as an ex inhabitant of Luton, I accept your correction (says, grabbing his coat quick :))
To just answer the question valves or ss, I'd say forget about that completely!
There have been many decades of top quality power amp production and a lot of previously expensive and excellent sounding gear is still out there, some of it forgotten having fallen off the radar a little bit.
There have been great solid state amps and great valve amps. There have been boring solid state amps and there have been boring valve amps.
You can start to think logically about perfect matching to your speakers if you wish but what you'll end up doing is overlooking or rejecting a lot of good gear just because you're uncertain about the spec (by which time the opportunity has passed) only to revert back to what you know and are confident about (e.g Naim 250).
So I'd recommend either just going for a Naim 250 and get it sorted without wasting time or to try anything and everything that takes your fancy and explore 50 or 60 years of audio reproduction..
Nat is right - forget the technology and try a few different amps of both types in your system to try and get good synergy. It's difficult to predict what's going to work for you.
morris_minor
12-03-2012, 13:29
. . Lutonite. . .
A slightly less effective version of Kryptonite . . . :eyebrows:
A slightly less effective version of Kryptonite . . . :eyebrows:
It doesn't kill Superman it just condemns him to a life in a depressing urban sprawl located a little too far North of London to be of any interest to anyone:eyebrows:
ursus262
12-03-2012, 17:49
It doesn't kill Superman it just condemns him to a life in a depressing urban sprawl located a little too far North of London to be of any interest to anyone:eyebrows:
Oi! :spank:
:lol:
Elephantears
13-03-2012, 10:30
I heard a Naim Uniti just once, very briefly. I had been listening to cd5xs/fc2xs with Nait xs and after this the Uniti sounded really flat. The speakers we were using were Linn Majik 109's, which are fairly thirsty, so it could have been that the Uniti just needed more juice. In which case a 155 or 200 would do the trick. However my suspicion is that these one box solutions are a compromise in many areas. Naim systems work best with external power supplies; the more separation the better. Its an overpriced upgrade path, but it does work. However it means lots of boxes messing up your living room. In your case the best solution would be to buy a used NAP 200 so that you will be able to get your money back easily if it doesn't bring the improvement you want. That is a safe gamble.
trio leo
13-03-2012, 16:45
It just so happens that HiFi Dave stocks Albarry M608 Mono-blocs, well worth a listen if you go.IMO.
regards Al
ursus262
13-03-2012, 18:42
Gentlemen
Thank you all so much for the advice and it's given me much food for thought. I think a trip to Hi Fi Dave's might be in order, as he is a Naim dealer, so he is likely to have a Uniti to hook up all these different power amps to so I can compare. Basically, the NAP200 and Croft amps look pretty interesting, as do the Avondale, but I'd like to hear all of them before I make my final decision. From what I've learned here, my MA speakers, despite being sensitive, may present a difficult load because of the bass-reflex design. They are 6 ohm speakers anyway, and I suspect the Uniti's limited current delivery and damping factor may be issues. On the other hand, a change of speakers might also bring about the same improvements, but I'm very nervous about changing them - and I do like the RS6s as they do sound really good.
The Uniti, despite being scoffed at by a lot of people, is a very practical solution for a lot of people, myself included, as it offers a lot of options without cluttering up my living room with endless boxes. I am wondering if I should get rid of my DCC recorder to make space for it :)
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