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View Full Version : Speaker toe-in beyond line of sight



DavefromDorset
03-03-2012, 15:16
For reasons too banal and embarassing to go into here, I may have to toe my front L and R speakers so that they cross over in front of the listening position. I have tried this out and they sound different but OK, with everything seeming to come from where it's supposed to come from sonically, even on SACD. I have read the odd speaker review where this position is recommended, so I guess it's not that unusual. However, I just can't get my head around why it works - surely the soundstage should be all over the place and the higher frequencies diminished, but this isn't the case (though, to be fair, my ability to hear above 12KHz has long since left the building).

If anyone can give me a layman's explanation of this sonic voodoo I would be most grateful.

Dave

YNWaN
03-03-2012, 15:22
Treble energy will be strongest on axis, but it depends on the dispersion characteristics of the tweeter (and other drive units).

I don't see why you think soundstage would be "all over the place", or why you mention SACD.

DSJR
03-03-2012, 16:02
Over-angling the toe-in was once recommended for tannoy DC's as the 10 and 12" models were set rather "hot" at one time (they're not now from what I've heard). Some users went the other way and had them firing straight ahead..

Whatever floats your boat and helps you to enjoy the music sir :) I mean, my old mukka Jimmy Hughes angled his speaker so far away from the listener, they were pointing to the middle of the back wall behind them. I thought this an angle much too far, but he believed it gave him more of what he wanted and used them this way for years.

DavefromDorset
04-03-2012, 09:39
Many thanks for the replies. The reason I expected soundstage to be affected is because of extra reflections from the on-axis sound hitting the wall behind me and bouncing round the the room. Perhaps I'm reading too many cheap crime novels and thinking about it in terms of ricocheting bullets. I mentioned SACD because of my perception of the on-axis sound waves interfering with the rear channels.

Dave R, I guess you're right: don't worry, be happy, which is what I intend to be, at least until I have enough folding stuff to change the speakers.

Cheers,

Dave

The Black Adder
04-03-2012, 10:03
Over-angling the toe-in was once recommended for tannoy DC's as the 10 and 12" models were set rather "hot" at one time (they're not now from what I've heard). Some users went the other way and had them firing straight ahead..

Whatever floats your boat and helps you to enjoy the music sir :) I mean, my old mukka Jimmy Hughes angled his speaker so far away from the listener, they were pointing to the middle of the back wall behind them. I thought this an angle much too far, but he believed it gave him more of what he wanted and used them this way for years.

Really?... Didn't know that, Dave. That could answer a few questions I've been experiencing. Cheers fella!

Puffin
05-03-2012, 21:15
I mean, my old mukka Jimmy Hughes angled his speaker so far away from the listener, they were pointing to the middle of the back wall

I thought that he had them facing in the opposite direction and bouncing off the wall in front of the listener?

montesquieu
06-03-2012, 00:50
Over-angling the toe-in was once recommended for tannoy DC's as the 10 and 12" models were set rather "hot" at one time (they're not now from what I've heard). Some users went the other way and had them firing straight ahead..

Whatever floats your boat and helps you to enjoy the music sir :) I mean, my old mukka Jimmy Hughes angled his speaker so far away from the listener, they were pointing to the middle of the back wall behind them. I thought this an angle much too far, but he believed it gave him more of what he wanted and used them this way for years.

After much, much much experimentation I find my Tannoys work best in this position, something to do with the tweeter characteristics I find. Flat against the wall is too much but a slight toe-in, pointing behind the couch, is ideal for a wide sweet spot and an even sound.

jandl100
07-03-2012, 09:32
... I mean, my old mukka Jimmy Hughes angled his speaker so far away from the listener, they were pointing to the middle of the back wall behind them. I thought this an angle much too far, but he believed it gave him more of what he wanted and used them this way for years.

Yes, I visited JMH's apartment and heard his system, must have been 25 years ago or more :wheniwasaboy: - speakers on the lower level of a split level room, turned completely around and facing backwards, listening seats on the upper level of the room, must have been 5 or so feet higher.

Seriously seriously weird :mental: - but it actually sounded pretty darn good! :scratch: :thumbsup:

Mind you, iirc he was using Linn Isobariks, and they squirt music all 'round the joint anyway! :lol:

nat8808
07-03-2012, 21:29
I mean, my old mukka Jimmy Hughes angled his speaker so far away from the listener, they were pointing to the middle of the back wall behind them. I thought this an angle much too far, but he believed it gave him more of what he wanted and used them this way for years.

I heard this was quite specific to his room, one with a to the floor glass window and his speakers were in front of that window. If he still lives at the Barbican, that's where I live now and think I know at least the type of flat he has/had .

nat8808
07-03-2012, 21:33
Yes, I visited JMH's apartment and heard his system, must have been 25 years ago or more :wheniwasaboy: - speakers on the lower level of a split level room, turned completely around and facing backwards, listening seats on the upper level of the room, must have been 5 or so feet higher.

Seriously seriously weird :mental: - but it actually sounded pretty darn good! :scratch: :thumbsup:

Mind you, iirc he was using Linn Isobariks, and they squirt music all 'round the joint anyway! :lol:

ah, there you go... that's what I heard before from other people.

Out of interest, was it looking out on to the water on the ground floor or up a few floors? Might take a look on the door bells to see if his name is there..

nat8808
07-03-2012, 21:41
Many thanks for the replies. The reason I expected soundstage to be affected is because of extra reflections from the on-axis sound hitting the wall behind me and bouncing round the the room. Perhaps I'm reading too many cheap crime novels and thinking about it in terms of ricocheting bullets. I mentioned SACD because of my perception of the on-axis sound waves interfering with the rear channels.

Dave R, I guess you're right: don't worry, be happy, which is what I intend to be, at least until I have enough folding stuff to change the speakers.

Cheers,

Dave

Your brain is ok at ignoring reflections that have taken a while to get to you (like around the room) - it's the reflections that aren't much of a deviation from direct that riun soundstage.

I'd say that pointing them across would help in this regard as when pointing a more directional speaker (i.e. most) forward and not far from the side walls, more of the sound will be reflected by the side wall - when pointing across, the side walls are a lot more off axis so getting less sound.

Can't remember where this comes from but one thing I read gave a theory of placement for best holographic soundstage that placed them pretty much at the two focuses of an elipse drawn to touch the walls of the rectangular room, with them pointing quite steeply across.

nat8808
07-03-2012, 21:45
Here we go - Usher Audio present this idea in their pdf here (Under 'Longwall Placement') (http://usheraudiousa.com/files/Speaker_Placement_r3.pdf)

I'd read it in a magazine but this is the same thing.

MartinT
07-03-2012, 22:09
Well, my Ushers are not placed according to any of their recommendations and they shouldn't really work at all, but they do work rather well. Room treatment definitely makes it happen and my room is acoustically quite dead now.

howardc1951
07-03-2012, 23:14
Ted Jordan, who, I think, used to be head designer at Goodmans before starting his own company, recommended using his speakers set like that with the crossover point a few feet in front of the listener. Anyone listening from beyond the crossover point will then get a correct stereo image regardless of how far away from the centre point they are. I seem to remember him giving an explanation of why it works in a book he wrote but I'm trying to remember back about 30 years when I read it.

maxrob200
08-03-2012, 06:30
IMHO, the amount of toe-in or out depends on source material as well as the overall design of the speakers i.e height of tweeter, D'appolito type , stand or floor type and dispersion patterns of the speakers - Dual Concentric or in-line layout etc. I have found that more toe-in reduced soundstage width but increases prescence for vocals and the reverse for toe-out

hoopsontoast
08-03-2012, 12:40
IMHO, the amount of toe-in or out depends on source material as well as the overall design of the speakers i.e height of tweeter, D'appolito type , stand or floor type and dispersion patterns of the speakers - Dual Concentric or in-line layout etc. I have found that more toe-in reduced soundstage width but increases presence for vocals and the reverse for toe-out

Spot on IMO, IME etc

Welder
08-03-2012, 13:01
I would have thought the polar response of your speakers would have a lot to do with where you can place them and how that effects ones perception of sound stage.

Macca
08-03-2012, 13:52
ah, there you go... that's what I heard before from other people.

Out of interest, was it looking out on to the water on the ground floor or up a few floors? Might take a look on the door bells to see if his name is there..

I still have the Hi-Fi choice article on JH's system - I will have to dig it out (literally :rolleyes:) if people are interested - although as I recall his flat was second storey above a Tube station :scratch:

howardc1951
08-03-2012, 14:18
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/book/
The Wireless World article from 1971 about stereo techniques is interesting.

maxrob200
08-03-2012, 23:06
Wouldn't it be wonderful if speakers could be mounted on a remtoe controlled platform which could rotate in all planes with height and tilt adjustment without sacrificing rigidity or loss of sound quality

nat8808
09-03-2012, 16:45
I still have the Hi-Fi choice article on JH's system - I will have to dig it out (literally :rolleyes:) if people are interested - although as I recall his flat was second storey above a Tube station :scratch:

Might well have tube line going underneath as you can hear it in certain parts especially some tennant storeroom areas.

Macca
10-03-2012, 10:42
I have searched for the HFC with the Jimmy Hughs feature and cannot find it but there are hundreds of magazines to go through (no Marco, not that sort) - I really do need to clear out - do I need dog-eared copies of Q and WTF from 1988? probably not....will have to wait for the spring clean I have pencilled in for next month, it will turn up then.