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View Full Version : Help needed....Home-from-home system (.....The Humble Wazoo??)



The Grand Wazoo
22-12-2008, 17:53
Right then folks, I need some advice to help me get some 1/2 decent sounding music at the place I stay when I'm working away from home.

This is what I've got to work with:

Source:
A really flaky DVD player to spin CD's - can't remember the brand name but its probably something like Saishi-shonky-bush. Suffice to say it cost £50 quite a long time ago (in the relative timeline of DVD availability) and it is NOT built like my Accuphase..........actually the box the Accuphase came in probably had more engineering skill expended on it's construction.

Amp & Tuner:
A Yamaha CR1020 receiver - quite a nice bit of kit really. Circa 1977 80 wpc, 19 kgs. 2 phono stages, 2 tape loops, 2 headphone o/puts, switching for 3 sets of speakers & a mains transformer almost the size of those in my Levinson power amps!! It was described by the Vintage Knob website as 'hopelessly classy'
http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CR1020/CR1020.html

Speakers:
Either
1). A set of Tannoy Mercury Mk. II's or,
2) Some Genexxa Pro LX5's (Optimus Pro LX5's to those of you from the US) ..........you know the ones with the Linnaeum tweeters.

Sitting on some good quality pillar stands.

The room is about 14' x 15' with a very high ceiling, suspended timber floor.
Musical taste - everything from pre-war blues to orchestral, stopping by on the way at everything from Joni to Jimi, but mainly crusty old guitar based rock music.
Volume levels pretty moderate.

I've got two questions really.

Question 1:
Which of the speakers would you use? - I've got the Tannoys there at the moment, but I can't compare them & the LX5's side by side as my wife needs a pair of speakers for the computer back here at home. Despite owning them for about 10 years, I never really gave the LX5's a serious listen before until the other day, when I bought the stands. Up until now they've been attached to the computer via, variously, a Cyrus 2 and an assortment of other 1970's receivers.

I must say, I was suprised at just how good the LX5's were - I know they have a bit of a reputation as being great but flawed, but I didn't realise just how good they were. But (and it's probably a big but) that was on the end of my Accuphase CD player and one of the Levinson power amps. They filled a 24' x 13' room to anti-social levels with no bother at all. I'd heard there was a bit of an Achilles heel at the bass end, but I thought they handled themselves pretty well.

But I've got a big soft spot for the old Tannoys!

Question 2:
What can I do about that awful DVD player?
I don't want to do anything rash or irresponsible like spending cash!! Well, that's not strictly true, but the budget would be extremely tight.
Should I raid Ebay & buy a cheap DAC for what I've got, or get a proper CD player?
Space is a bit tight for more gear & having the means to play DVD's is a bit of a bonus.

When I say that the budget is extremely tight, I mean tighter than a pair of tights on a tight git. (I am given to understand that this is, in fact, fairly tight........I actually have no personal experience in this area, you understand).

By the way, I notice a distinct lack of takers for entry into my one off spectacular Christmas caption competition. Believe me, the prize is something to behold. Yes, there will be an actual physical prize that I will send at my own cost to the author of the best caption........so, hurry now, you lucky people to:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1614

.........then come back here and answer my questions

John
22-12-2008, 19:44
If you have a digtal out on the DVD player get a DAC and it should serve its purpose
Sorry cannot help you with the the first Quetion

The Grand Wazoo
22-12-2008, 19:53
Sorry, yes I should have said there are digital o/puts on the DVD player.

Ali Tait
22-12-2008, 21:56
Well probably not a popular answer here,but sell it all and buy a pair of adm9's if it's a portable system you are looking for.Run them off your laptop.Not that Iv'e done it myself,but if a strongly mooted job comes off for me at work,I'll be staying away for a couple of years,so this would be my intention.Not heard a pair,but should be a good sounding and very portable system.Depends if you need portable.

The Grand Wazoo
22-12-2008, 22:05
Well, portability's not really something I need, as I rent a place.

But decent quality FM is something I do need (as is the pleasure of owning something like the Yamaha - even if I've only got some ratty crap to play through it).

Beechwoods
22-12-2008, 22:51
Oh wow... that Yamaha really IS beautiful...

The Grand Wazoo
22-12-2008, 23:50
........isn't it just?

One day, I'll get around to photographing under the bonnet & I'll stick the pics on here.

It is bloody massive though - 540mm (over 21 inches)!!

Best of all -it's a cosmetic 9/10 and it only cost me £52!

Ali Tait
23-12-2008, 00:02
I'll give you 53!! :)

Beechwoods
23-12-2008, 05:59
Best of all -it's a cosmetic 9/10 and it only cost me £52!

Call the cops! That's criminal! I hope the previous owner wasn't a little old lady ;) :smoking:

The Grand Wazoo
23-12-2008, 08:57
I fear that this model wouldn't suit you Beechykins - Surely, there's not nearly enough acreage of bright shiny brushed fascia for your tastes (and not a sign of a smokestack anywhere)?

Perhaps you might fair better with the CR 3020 ...............

http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CR3020/CR3020.html

This little tinker is another 4 inches wider, weighs 37 kgs and adds another 100 wpc !!!!!

tfarney
23-12-2008, 14:21
Not one to be out-done in the race for buttons, knobs and twinkling lights on a massive field of brushed aluminum, I own one of these...

http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/90/6c/43c6_1.JPG

The banks of flashing LEDs replacing vu meters are a bit over the top, but the sound is lovely. It's a true dual-mono design. Lots of grunt. Lots of smooth warmth. Very tube-like.

Tim

Marco
23-12-2008, 18:57
Oooh, very nice Tim! Does it measure well, though? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Beechwoods
23-12-2008, 19:25
I fear that this model wouldn't suit you Beechykins - Surely, there's not nearly enough acreage of bright shiny brushed fascia for your tastes (and not a sign of a smokestack anywhere)?

Perhaps you might fair better with the CR 3020 ...............

http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CR3020/CR3020.html

This little tinker is another 4 inches wider, weighs 37 kgs and adds another 100 wpc !!!!!

Nice, very nice. But this one... it matches my RT-707. Now if I could find one for £52... ;)

http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/AOS/Pioneer_SX-1980_ext1.JPG

Marco
23-12-2008, 19:30
Hahaha... Does it come with a pair of shades and a chest wig? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ali Tait
23-12-2008, 19:31
Very nice! So can you chaps recommend something along these lines that sounds good and isn't silly money? I could do with a nice tuner.

Filterlab
23-12-2008, 19:40
http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/AOS/Pioneer_SX-1980_ext1.JPG

Now that's REAL hi-fi equipment from the good old days. Beautiful thing.

Beechwoods
23-12-2008, 19:45
A Pioneer SX-1980 from 1978 (definitely before it's time). Would definitely love one, but not got the pockets for it :)

Filterlab
23-12-2008, 19:48
Do they still fetch a lot?

Beechwoods
23-12-2008, 20:09
They were TOTL, and history has maintained some reverence for their quality and performance. There is also a strong collectors scene for old Pioneer kit. You'd be looking at something around the £300-400 mark if you could find one. That's pretty expensive for my tastes!

The Grand Wazoo
23-12-2008, 20:34
Yup, the big Pioneers have faired well if you're a seller, and the Marantzs especially in the US.

I was expecting to go to about £120 on the Yamaha.

DSJR
23-12-2008, 20:37
You're going to hate me for this, but the Yammy CR1020 was no CR1000, the tuner performing badly on the 75 Ohm aerial input, although better on the 300 Ohm one (earlier Yamaha receivers were ok according to test reports of the time).

I'd stay with the Tannoys, keeping them well out from the rear wall, as they were designed for free space mounting. HiFi Choice raved about them and I'd agree, as long as a Linn LP12 isn't used as a source (knowing smile)....

Marco
23-12-2008, 20:37
You've gotta love the sheer levels of over-engineering. If only gear was built like that nowadays!

Mass-produced plastic iPods and such like step forward... ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
23-12-2008, 20:56
You're going to hate me for this, but the Yammy CR1020 was no CR1000, the tuner performing badly on the 75 Ohm aerial input, although better on the 300 Ohm one (earlier Yamaha receivers were ok according to test reports of the time).

I'd stay with the Tannoys, keeping them well out from the rear wall, as they were designed for free space mounting. HiFi Choice raved about them and I'd agree, as long as a Linn LP12 isn't used as a source (knowing smile)....

Harumph, Thanks for that!!
Actually, the tuner seems OK, and not too far from my Accuphase - which I rate very highly indeed.

A Linn as a source??? A source of horrific nightmares, I should think.

The Grand Wazoo
23-12-2008, 21:14
You've gotta love the sheer levels of over-engineering. If only gear was built like that nowadays!

Mass-produced plastic iPods and such like step forward... ;)

Marco.

These were exotic and high priced items in their day - my 1020 was ~$600 in the States (don't know what it fetched in the UK). What would that equate to today?

What would they cost to build today?

Beechwoods
23-12-2008, 21:17
Wikipedia has an interesting note on the SX-1980:


It's retail price in 1978 was $1295.00. According to S. Morgan Friedman's Inflation Calculator, it would list for an equivalent of $3638.00 today.

That's quite a lot of money!

The Grand Wazoo
23-12-2008, 22:13
Very nice! So can you chaps recommend something along these lines that sounds good and isn't silly money? I could do with a nice tuner.

A couple of questions first:

What do you mean by silly money?
Do you want a receiver or a tuner?

Marco
23-12-2008, 22:15
These were exotic and high priced items in their day - my 1020 was ~$600 in the States (don't know what it fetched in the UK). What would that equate to today?

What would they cost to build today?

Indeed. But the fact is the majority of today's hi-fi buying public (and even many enthusiasts) care little about build quality, as long as it's 'half-decent' and whatever bit of gear it is 'works', so the point is somewhat moot :)

Others, like me for example (and I suspect a few AOS members also), buy gear that oozes class in terms of both sound quality and aesthetics. I admire (indeed demand) high quality engineering in any hi-fi equipment I buy. That is why you will never see any mass-produced plastic tat anywhere near my system! ;)

Marco.

Ali Tait
23-12-2008, 23:20
Just a tuner,though would have a reciever if it has pre outs for the tuner section.Say around 300 quid tops? I read good things about Quad FM4.Whaddaya think?

tfarney
24-12-2008, 03:15
Oooh, very nice Tim! Does it measure well, though? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

It measured way above its class in its day (1972). Which means it measures only slightly above good contemporary valve gear. ;)

My ultra-cheap digital receiver sounds better in every objective way, but it is ultra-cheap, so I'm already shopping for its replacement, anticipating its early demise. I'd like to be wrong.

Tim

Filterlab
24-12-2008, 08:56
They were TOTL, and history has maintained some reverence for their quality and performance. There is also a strong collectors scene for old Pioneer kit. You'd be looking at something around the £300-400 mark if you could find one. That's pretty expensive for my tastes!

It is a lot for a vintage component, but just looking at it indicates the build quality.

By the way, what does "TOTL" mean?

Primalsea
24-12-2008, 09:54
....... That is why you will never see any mass-produced plastic tat anywhere near my system! ;)

Marco.

Apart from the DL103 cartridge:lolsign:

ps I will be away for a few days hiding underground until the fallout has subsided.

Primalsea
24-12-2008, 10:02
Most hifi gear from the 70's only sounds off the pace now because some of the components have aged. If your that way inclined changing all the Electrolytic capacitors would be a start. They become "leaky" after a time and start to pass DC. Also if possible washing the PCBs with a suitable cleaner to remove any oxidation will also help.
Conformal coating which can be bought in an aerosol can will protect the PCB and it tends to lower stray capacitance as well.

Also the resistors in old valve gear tend to drift with age regardless of if they get hot or not, its a good idea to replace these with new ones.

Quite often you can get vintage gear sounding bang up to date.

Marco
24-12-2008, 10:45
Apart from the DL103 cartridge:lolsign:

ps I will be away for a few days hiding underground until the fallout has subsided.

Hehe... :eyebrows:

That's not applicable, though, Paul. The DL-103SA I use has a glass fibre composite epoxy body - there's no plastic in sight!

So come out and try again ;)

Marco.

Primalsea
24-12-2008, 11:03
So what you're saying is its a bog standard cartridge with a boy racer kit fitted to it.

I saw a 1100 Fiesta with a carbon fibre spoiler on the back, obviously it must go a lot faster than a normal 1100 Fiesta, probably sounds better too.:)

Anyway, this is going OT and as you probably guessed that was just a cheap shot.

Marco
24-12-2008, 11:38
So what you're saying is its a bog standard cartridge with a boy racer kit fitted to it.


LOL! No what I'm saying is that it's the best sounding 103 out there by a country mile (not to mention most other currently available cartridges I've heard sub £2k) - And there are valid reasons for that. But like you say this is OT, so let's leave it there... :)

Marco.

Primalsea
24-12-2008, 12:31
Yep, probably best Marco, you know I'm kidding but I think theres poppys now growing in some other threads.

DSJR
24-12-2008, 13:07
Mid seventies Pioneer amps and receivers imported into the UK sounded awful even then. very harsh and no reproduction of space and reverb. The important thing was the spec of course and no regard to the terrible things done to the circuits to get the better basic measurements.

The Yamaha CR200/400/600/800/1000 were goodies though, as was the HK930 and its siblings, if you're looking at receivers. Even Rotels had severe crossover distortion back then.

Rose tinted specs are not necessarily a good thing you know...;)

Marco
24-12-2008, 13:13
Indeed - which goes to prove that measurements mean next to f*ck all with regard to how an amp treats music. And that's all that matters to audio and music enthusiasts!

Marco.

Primalsea
24-12-2008, 13:25
I cant comment directly on those amps but I've seen many others that had the bias wound down so the amp run cooler at idle. This normally means that cross over distortion is quite high as a result. If the amp can take it, its a good idea to increase the bias. Too much though and distortion will start to increase again. You can use a PC with basic free software to measure THD. When its at its lowest bias is optimal.

Some amps used a fixed resistor or diode chain to set bias, for these you either had to add additional resistors or diodes in the chain or modifiy the circuit with a pot to set bias though which can be more agro than its worth.

The Grand Wazoo
24-12-2008, 14:39
Anyway folks if I can steer you back to my original posting, if you remember, I need some help with this gear. (Sorry for the unforgivable shonkyness of the source Marco - it's not my ideal either, but times is tough at chez Wazoo)


Right then folks, I need some advice to help me get some 1/2 decent sounding music at the place I stay when I'm working away from home.

This is what I've got to work with:

Source:
A really flaky DVD player to spin CD's - can't remember the brand name but its probably something like Saishi-shonky-bush.

Amp & Tuner:
A Yamaha CR1020 receiver - quite a nice bit of kit really.

Speakers:
Either
1). A set of Tannoy Mercury Mk. II's or,
2) Some Genexxa Pro LX5's (Optimus Pro LX5's to those of you from the US) ..........you know the ones with the Linnaeum tweeters.

Sitting on some good quality pillar stands.

The room is about 14' x 15' with a very high ceiling, suspended timber floor.
Musical taste - everything from pre-war blues to orchestral, stopping by on the way at everything from Joni to Jimi, but mainly crusty old guitar based rock music.
Volume levels pretty moderate.

I've got two questions really.

Question 1:
Which of the speakers would you use? - I've got the Tannoys there at the moment, but I can't compare them & the LX5's side by side as my wife needs a pair of speakers for the computer back here at home. Despite owning them for about 10 years, I never really gave the LX5's a serious listen before until the other day, when I bought the stands. Up until now they've been attached to the computer via, variously, a Cyrus 2 and an assortment of other 1970's receivers.

I must say, I was suprised at just how good the LX5's were - I know they have a bit of a reputation as being great but flawed, but I didn't realise just how good they were. But (and it's probably a big but) that was on the end of my Accuphase CD player and one of the Levinson power amps. They filled a 24' x 13' room to anti-social levels with no bother at all. I'd heard there was a bit of an Achilles heel at the bass end, but I thought they handled themselves pretty well.

But I've got a big soft spot for the old Tannoys!

Question 2:
What can I do about that awful DVD player?
I don't want to do anything rash or irresponsible like spending cash!! Well, that's not strictly true, but the budget would be extremely tight.
Should I raid Ebay & buy a cheap DAC for what I've got, or get a proper CD player?
Space is a bit tight for more gear & having the means to play DVD's is a bit of a bonus.

When I say that the budget is extremely tight, I mean tighter than a pair of tights on a tight git. (I am given to understand that this is, in fact, fairly tight........I actually have no personal experience in this area, you understand).

Marco
26-12-2008, 20:39
Hi TGW,

I've just noticed your questions. I'll give them due consideration and come back to you when I've sobered up! I trust you're having a nice Christmas? :)

Marco.

DSJR
26-12-2008, 20:59
You'd do a lot worse than a Cambridge Audio 640C and some interconnects from Flashback sales (to name but one good cheap maker, which sells online at "trade" prices). if you want to use the DVD player still, if it has a digital output, consider a Cambridge (them again) Dacmagic with it.

I still say to use the Tannoys, but keep them out a bit from walls and use decent stands with 'em. From the past, the Heybrook HBS1 stands work really well.