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Primalsea
22-12-2008, 00:11
And if someone spent enough money on marketing we could have another 2 rights & 2 lefts so we can be shafted in those and a sub so we could get a extra big shafting down below.

why oh why oh why is it that when we talk about hifi mags it seems they are all out to shaft us. It would seem that they all wany to take out money and feed us all crap for the pleasure of it. Reviews are biased depending on who's getting to keep there demo sample, who's friends with who and no doubt all the hifi companies are going round to the magazines offices with carriers bags stuffed full of cash. Further more the writers are beyond reproach (and beyound wankers for that matter, no they're knee deep in wankers). They say what they want and we all believe them or if we don't then we see the world for how it is,a big conspiracy.

Then cables OMFG!, those bastards are out to get us too. We all know they marinate normal cable in yak's poo and then deep freeze it for a week, wrap it all up in a nice braided sleeve and sell it for a huge profit. Of course all the cable manufacturers have done no R&D at all. Just saying that to publish their results would allow their competitors insight into the R&D that back their produt up is not good enough, we all see through that.

Then, the Forums where anyone with a computer attached to the WWW can state the opinion which then we are all compelled to accept as fact and must believe it all for yee shall be doomed.

I often wonder why we stick with this hobby at all, you just don't this kind of agro collecting stamps or milk bottle tops!

And of course we don't have a choice or free will at all unless we choose the truth which is everyone else who didn't choose the truth are sheep sucked in by the dark forces out there. So we must champion them as we have chosen correctly for we see the light. This means that we, the people who have used our free will to choose must now complain about the non existance of aforementioned choice that others dont have.

Could it be that infact they have chosen using their own free will, just like we have. Therefore telling them that because they haven't chosen the same thing as us they never had a choice is a bit insulting really. Its not our place to tell other that just because they chose something different from us that they have been blindly led.

Why does everything have to be some damn negative all the time. Yes there are some unscrupulus people out there, but they're everywhere not just all in the hifi trade. There are good people out there who are human's being like the rest of us.

Spectral Morn
22-12-2008, 00:19
Hi Paul

"why do we stick with this hobby ?"

Its all for the love of music. Its for the Music.

Its my only drug of choice .

Regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

Mike
22-12-2008, 00:31
It's all a big conspiracy! :lolsign:

Primalsea
22-12-2008, 00:37
Yeh!! and your part of it you evil moderator you

Mike
22-12-2008, 00:38
:mad: I am the Devil!

alb
22-12-2008, 07:58
The answer is simple.

Don't buy magazines, don't spend time or money in HIFI shops, make your own cables and everything else.

This way you can only shaft yourself.
I think. :scratch:

jandl100
22-12-2008, 08:20
Nah, I like doing my shafting in company. :)

StanleyB
22-12-2008, 08:32
I have no problems with the magazines. Most of them stay away from me, and the few who have mentioned me have been good for business:).

tfarney
22-12-2008, 14:53
The hobby itself is full of fictions, but I trust the magazines a bit more than forums, personally.

Tim

Mike
22-12-2008, 15:02
It's all just opinions, forum, magazine or whatever. Always seems to boil down to a person saying what they think, there are facts out there for sure but there's nearly always an opinion or two to go with it all.

Ali Tait
22-12-2008, 21:00
Why get upset over it all? Just ignore all the bloody mags.(I've not bought one in a long time) Build your own stuff! The vast majority of commercial stuff I've heard is crap anyway,and HUGELY overpriced.Otherwise,frequent the right forums and demo stuff that many say is good till you find what suits you.Chill man...

Marco
22-12-2008, 21:07
The hobby itself is full of fictions, but I trust the magazines a bit more than forums, personally.


That's very hurtful, Tim. I thought you cared ;)

Marco.

tfarney
23-12-2008, 14:01
That's very hurtful, Tim. I thought you cared ;)

Marco.

Love you man, honest. But let's face it. Many forums are not filled to the capacity of their digits with the articulate, informed and self-aware we find here at AOS :). There are a few fori out there where massive enthusiasm for flavor of the month products waxes and wanes with the conversation, often generating gobs of hyperbolic enthusiasm from posters who have never even heard the products they're reviewing.

At least the magazine reviewers have heard the equipment they're writing their little love poems about.

Tim

Primalsea
23-12-2008, 19:17
Love you man, honest. But let's face it. Many forums are not filled to the capacity of their digits with the articulate, informed and self-aware we find here at AOS :). There are a few fori out there where massive enthusiasm for flavor of the month products waxes and wanes with the conversation, often generating gobs of hyperbolic enthusiasm from posters who have never even heard the products they're reviewing.

At least the magazine reviewers have heard the equipment they're writing their little love poems about.

Tim

You dug yourself out of that hole very well:)

tfarney
24-12-2008, 03:07
It's a gift.

Tim

fraser.
26-12-2008, 21:19
I've never read a 'hifi' magazine; i find the 'independent' reviews on the net bad enough, especially with the 'new/different=good' mentality of so many audiophiles :mental:

For what it's worth there's still good value sound to be had, even new. It's not all bad. If you know what you're looking for 2nd hand then there's practically no limit to the quality available, especially if you've got a soldering iron and access to the net.... :)

Marco
27-12-2008, 09:35
Good point, Fraser. Too many people chase 'the next best thing' in hi-fi when quite often it is no such thing, and the 'next best thing' they're chasing is in fact inferior, sonically, to the thing they're replacing!

Clever marketing, the valuing of convenience above anything else, and people's predisposition to believing that new is automatically better is responsible for creating this unfortunately deluded way of system building.

However, like you say, there is plenty of superb sounding modern equipment which offers excellent value on a sound-per-pound basis, particularly in the budget to mid sector, where in my opinion things have never been so good.

However, one should always remember that designs based on sound engineering principles don't suddenly become bad designs overnight; they remain good designs whether they originated in the 1930s or much later in the 20th century. It's indeed no surprise that much of the best sounding hi-fi equipment today is based on the classics of yesteryear...

As always, the best policy is to forget any forms of absolutism and keep an open mind!

Marco.

fraser.
27-12-2008, 13:06
I definitely agree about the budget end- earlier this year i began to question my entire system history / development when i heard some of the straight out the box matching systems available new today. When i add up how much money i've eaten away buying and selling used equipment it adds up to a VERY good new system straight from a dealer! Though that's not really the point- it's the experience eh :)

tbh if someone were to ask me today for a decent, true sound for sensible money i would probably point them in the direction of some matching cambridge audio components rather than go the 'mixing and matching route'. System synergy is an overlooked thing in the used market and although it's nice to have a 'classic', sometimes there's an even bigger danger of buying the name rather than the sound when buying these products of folklore...

DSJR
27-12-2008, 22:06
At least the magazine reviewers have heard the equipment they're writing their little love poems about.

Tim

Umm, MOST reviewers have heard the equipment they're writing about, but there are tales of boxes being returned unopened to the suppliers yet they've been reviewed, products coming from nowhere, winning group tests and then quickly fading away a few months later and even products especially built for review bearing little resemblance to the product for sale.

One cassette deck I remember in the dim mists of time, was carefully calibrated and personally delivered to the mags, one at a time. I could never understand why the ones we opened and listened to sounded so average on recording quality compared to other machines that were so demonstrably better.

Dave Cawley
27-12-2008, 23:18
Is any of this true?

Dave

Dave Cawley
28-12-2008, 09:03
It is this sort of posting that gets forums a bad name. Recently a specific cable manufacturer and a turntable company were slurred by unsubstantiated claims.

I can't continue to be part of this forum if vague and unsubstantiated claims are made about the industry. It makes every member look the same, tarred with the same brush in effect.

It simply isn't OK to (in my own words again) to tar all magazines with the same brush. Hi Fi World gave AOS a 1/4 page advert for free, they thought this forum was different to the others. But here we go again, bashing Hi Fi Magazines without any truthful evidence, and this is simply not OK.

What I find more than puzzling, is why this is allowed to happen time and time again. Some days there seem to be more moderators than real members? So why does this happen.

I call on the owner of this list to reduce the number of moderators to 2. This negativity to the Hi Fi Industry has to stop, or I'll go for good.

And guys, please don't hide behind the pathetic "legal reasons prevent me from saying" If you are telling the truth, then the law is behind you every inch of the way. If the 'stories' are old or incorrect, then you do really need to worry about the law?

I thought this forum was all about Hi Fi and music? One of the better forums? A forum you would be proud to be part of?

Would the Forum Owner have a cup of coffee and think very hard about this please?

Dave

Primalsea
28-12-2008, 11:20
Dave,

Moderation is a fine grey line at best. Its very hard not to let people say what they want to say without letting comments that could cause a fall out getting through.

A lot of what you say is correct but what you are saying is bordering on taking away peoples rights to speak freely.

However you are quite within your right to say if you dont like something like you just have. Problem is you have used a few trigger words that gives your post the appearence of a personal attack on other members / moderators. I didn't personally fine your post insulting but think about how the poor sod it was aimed at will feel when he reads this.

Marco
28-12-2008, 11:31
Hi Dave,

Interesting comments. Could you give me a phone when you get a chance and we'll sort this out? I don't really want the thread turning into a 'tit-for-tat' argument.

I think it's simply a matter of us all agreeing (Neil, DSJR and all other members included) what is and isn't suitable to be discussed regarding these types of issues, which given how sensible our members are shouldn't be too difficult to achieve :)

In the meantime, until I've spoken with Dave, I would ask that people refrain from commenting further. Once I've spoken with him I will return and post proposals as to how we would like these types of discussions to be carried out in future.

Cheers.

Speak soon, Dave.
Marco.

Marco
28-12-2008, 13:31
Ok, I've had a chat with Dave and we agreed on the following points, which I'd like others to offer their comments on:

1. We would both like to see being a member of AOS as being part of a group that makes constructive and clear criticism where appropriate.

We don't want AOS to be representative of a group who constantly dig manufactures, dealers and magazines with unsubstantial and often completely untrue comments.

2. We believe, for instance, you can say: "Hi fi News issue 148 reviewed a Chord Cable and found it to be identical to RS part no 123-456."

We do not believe you can say: "A Hi Fi Magazine reviewed a Chord cable and found it to be the same as an RS part." This slurs all other Hi Fi magazines and is not fair.

3. We believe, for instance, you can say: "I heard a Clearaudio Emotion with a Benz Glider and I don't like it."

We do not believe you can say: "All Clearaudio turntables sound poor."

Regarding point 3 above, anyone making such comments about a manufacturer's product being "poor" is entitled to do so but must then expect to be challenged on the matter and asked to offer their relevant experience. It is not acceptable to simply make blanket statements stating that such-and-such turntable is 'crap' or whatever without an accompanying explanatory reason.

With regard to points 1 and 2 above, we do not wish to gag anyone so people are perfectly entitled to, if necessary, be critical of a magazine, cable, or anything else, but the key thing is to be SPECIFIC and not generalise, as then all cable manufacturers, magazines, or whatever are tarred with the same brush and this is not fair.

However, if you are specific then you must have the necessary factual evidence to back up any comments made and be sure that your facts are correct before publishing potentially damaging remarks on the forum. We cannot allow 'tittle-tattle' (he says, she says, etc) or hearsay as being the basis for accusations made.

I trust that this is fair and clear to everyone, and we would therefore ask that people bear this in mind in future when discussions of this nature are taking place. I will post a final draft of this on the notice board later once everyone has expressed their views and agreed on exactly how we will proceed in future.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
28-12-2008, 13:58
Thank you Marco

I have removed my posts. Not because what I have said is not true but because in a court of law unless you can get a witness to offer confirmation your word stands for nothing. As I can not be sure of obtaining this evidence as back up I withdraw the comments.

I think it is going to be very difficult to ever obtain such evidence. The relationship between Mags and manufacturers, Dealers etc is to close and while money is exchanged for advertising etc no one will be prepared to put their job/products etc on the line. Therefore who will be prepared to be a whistle blower or support such. Very few I suspect.

There are a number of past and future issues that make this relationship between all parts of the industry difficult at best and in some ways virtually impossible. While advertising is a factor and all sorts of personal/professional factors exist. People are people and as we are all flawed it only seems reasonable that mistakes occur and deliberate perversions creep in too. Bottom line try it in your own set up and if you agree, great and if not just accept you don't like it and move on. Same goes for all areas that are subjective,books ,movies and music.

I accept the new AUP but feel that it will make it difficult for me to share my industry experiences fully, but such is life.

Regards DSDL ---- Neil

Primalsea
28-12-2008, 14:04
It all seems fair IMHO. What I ask is that if someone doesn't like the contents of a post they can challange whats said but should not leap straight into an attack, referring to another posters reasoning as pathetic is an example.

Dave, I used your post as an example but please don't take this as being singled out. We all do or have done a similar thing in the past.

"Hi fi News issue 148 reviewed a Chord Cable and found it to be identical to RS part no 123-456."

This could potentially be mis-representing that actual fact. How did they find it identical, in sound after listening tests, actually the same as far as could be told from a visual comparison.

If things like this are to be posted it should be absolutely clear what is meant otherwise people WILL read into it whatever they like, not what was actually meant.

Steve Toy
28-12-2008, 14:25
Common sense applies here. There is no AUP for that would simply encourage the more mischievous to to skirt around the wording while still violating the spirit.

The existing ethos does cover it if you look. However, reinforcement is still a good idea if it helps folks to conceptualise things better.

MartinT
28-12-2008, 14:42
I believe I support magazines which I see as being fair and putting a good deal of work into a review. I subscribe to Hi-Fi News, Stereophile and Hi-Fi Critic. Even so, it is possible to develop likings for certain reviewers, because they tend to match your own opinions or listen to similar music or whatever, and to dislike others. Furthermore it is possible to like certain forums where freedom of expression is not tainted by ignorance or silliness and to that end AOS and Vinyl Engine are the two that I give time to. Even so, there are certain contributors who seem not to provide backing for their statements and others whose inputs are most welcome. And so it goes.

I am happy to remain within the confines of the new guidelines and harbour just a small misgiving that it might smother otherwise useful contributions. Let's see how it goes.