View Full Version : CABLES
sastusbulbas
20-12-2008, 19:17
Cables!
Dave Cawley?
:)
This should be fun. Where is that sitting by, eating popcorn icon? Ah well, I guess I'll have an ale while I watch instead...:cool:...FWIW, I think good cable is all about enough copper, proper shielding and good quality plugs. All stuff that is easily, inexpensively obtained. My current sets are home made. Oh, and I work at a place that sells the stuff and can tell you that the cost of high end cables is almost all profit, for what that is worth. The mark-up for the retailer is huge, so I'm guessing the margins for the manufacturer are similar. Which would put the cost of a high-end (and this is not the truly mad esoteric stuff) well below what I pay for the materials to make my own. Read into that what you will, but it is a fact.
Tim :popcorn:
Yep! dealer margins are *at least 60%* on wires these days. Mind you, some of the harware offers at least this margin if enough is bought at a time, so I've been told.
StanleyB
20-12-2008, 19:58
Many years ago I developed a range of interconnects under a certain brand name. A few years ago I left the company that I worked for when I developed those leads. But with all that chat on forums about if leads make a difference or not I have struck up an agreement to sell some of the leads in the range that I developed. I spent several years doing the research and prototype designs, so I am quite surprised when I read comments from folks who don't believe in cable designs. There can't be many on any forums on the web who worked with a wider variety of cable materials and designs than me. Audio, video, network, telephone, satellite etc. You name it.
The things that affect the performance of say an audio lead are reactance, bend radius, standing waves, screening, ground plane. I read comments where people attribute certain properties to a lead. In most cases, those attributes are directly related to the property performances I mentioned. However, there is little or no further comments with regards to whether the observed properties are desirable, deliberate, or a short coming on the part of the designers.
But looking at the marketing blurb from some of the well known companies that sell interconnects I wonder if the marketing people ever conversed with the designers, or if they just bought some leads in China and then invented some marketing properties for the leads they sell.
An interconnect is not a cable. Yes folks, let me dispel that suggestion here. Rather, it is a piece of cable with one or more connectors at one or both ends. The design of the connector is just as critical as the design of the cable. If they are not designed to match each other, the results are going to be pants. But the guy sitting in his shed, making up interconnects with bits and bobs in his trays, relies on luck and judgement, rather than sound scientific principles. There is where the problem starts: a lack of scientific principles.
jandl100
21-12-2008, 08:32
Every now & then I go through a phase of 'all cables sound the same' and get rid of my high margin foo cables and go with standard Van Damme or Gotham or similar.
That phase doesn't last long though, as I gradually find myself less and less pleased with the sound. :scratch: It's such a relief after a while to go back to the high margin 'wanky wires'!
It may well be all in my bonce, but that's where the music appreciation thing happens, too, so that's OK with me. :)
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 08:36
OK Guys, I'm here now! I think although were wrong, that we call interconnects cables, and vice versa.
Before diving in, what was the C**** cable and what was the RS part number, and what magazine/issue was it in.
When we get to the end of this thread, the world will be a different place!!
Regards
Dave
An interconnect is not a cable. Yes folks, let me dispel that suggestion here. Rather, it is a piece of cable with one or more connectors at one or both ends. The design of the connector is just as critical as the design of the cable. If they are not designed to match each other, the results are going to be pants. But the guy sitting in his shed, making up interconnects with bits and bobs in his trays, relies on luck and judgement, rather than sound scientific principles. There is where the problem starts: a lack of scientific principles.
Hi Stan
I am really intersted in more around your thoughts about good scientific principles applied to cables (I just want to learn)
For myself I stay away from really expensive cables; for years I was always thinking if I change the cables perhaps I get the system sorted, rather than having my system right in the first place. Now very happy with the sound I have I use cables that are not too expensive and very happy with the performance (in the past I used a whole bunch of exotic cables)
Think its crazy to spend silly money on a cable but agree good cables make a difference. Guess my point is that you do not have to spend crazy money on cables to get you system to sound good
When we get to the end of this thread, the world will be a different place!!
And we'll all be considerably older! :lolsign:
StanleyB
21-12-2008, 09:57
A high grade interconnect does not have to cost much more than a bog standard lead. My digital coax TRC-222 has more conducting material and a higher quality of material used in it than some leads costing 10X more. What the punter pays for a lead bears no relation to any known financial formula. The final cost is: manufacturing cost X greed.
Spectral Morn
21-12-2008, 12:11
I wrote this awhile ago. Fits in better, in part with this new discussion, I think.
So have a read for first time or as a reminder.
This is a hot one, on some forums the equivolent of pouring petrol on a fire. Not here it would seem.
cabling is one issue that so far we can't get away with out. Even one box set ups need cables to the speakers.
When I first got into audio about 19 years ago, either I was innocent in mind or perhaps open minded but I could hear that cables made a difference to the sound. In my ignorance, I was unaware of the possible reasons for this. Unlike now, but I still have an open mind. Lets face it taking a pile of cables home to try is a lot easier than other bits of kit. However fitting some of the ridiculous creations out there to your kit is another matter. Cables that look like things you would find used for tying up ships to the plain strange. Any one remember Coogan Hall a hollow copper pipe, with an outer screen that didn't touch the cable(pipe except at the plugs). It was a good cable but unless you fitted it very carefully it would crack. I always wondered about the effect on the pipe when you bent it. Did that change the sound. Same goes for any cable does bending and shaping change how it sounds ?
I have tried many cables over the years and up until recently had never been able to subcribe to the one brand cable loom. However having a chat with someone in the cable business a possible answer to this came up. The answer is consistency. Many cable companies who claim to make cables don't( unless fitting plugs can be called making). Many seek out and try cables, select them, label them and claim to make them. Even within a range say model x the interconnect and speaker cable are not the same cable even though that claim is made. Just dip into the RS catalogue/range made(which is huge). I am by the way not saying all cables are picked out of the ones RS make (there are other sources of cables out there). Now I don't have a problem with this. If time and trial is put into listening and selecting fine but the price should bear that out. To ask to much is a bloody cheek. Now if you make it or at the very least make/design and ask someone else to make it then you can claim to make cables. There are very few out there who do this, very few( you would be shocked about who does and doesn't. Legal reasons prevent me from saying. But you know who you are. SHAME ON YOU).
So when I have tried cables in the past I have ended up with make X for linking source, make Z for speaker cable and so on. Only in the last few months have I found an exception to that with Atlas Marvos. Atls make Marvos from the same cable so the range of cables are consistent, through out. This goes for all their cables that I have tried. They design and have their cables made for them. No catalogue use here. So thats one issue that needs to be known, are the cable material used consistent within a range, my experience would suggest no, except in a few cases.
The other issues of length of material, type of material(silver, copper etc), type of plugs, Resistance and capacitance all make a difference to sound and vary with products in your system, as they too have these issues relating to them. This makes group tests a bit of a waste of time, as you will mostly get varying results with the same cables but different kit used and if you use one make of kit and many cables. This is a bit like group tests with speakers. Same room used will affect the results. Some speakers work better in some rooms rather than others.
How a cable will work in your set up, will depend on your kit. You will just have to try it and see how it sounds. Is it wrong to use cables as a tone control. Well that will depend on you and how badly mismatched your kit is.
If you have a well balanced system then cabling should be a bit easier to select. I have only rarely heard cables that can completely destroy the sound of a system and work with only a small range of kit. Most have a basic sound and are not as dramatic. But dramatic ones do exist. So the post one above is not wrong, just I haven't come across this to the same extent.
Most of us will select cables to match a sound preference or we will go with what is hot at the moment( sometimes without trying, very foolish). We all know what the hot 3 are Nordost, Chord and Kimber. I feel that you should consider cables at the very least in a similar way to picking the rest of your system when you are buying a complete new set up. If you are playing with cables as upgrades then you will have to just suck it and see and be prepared to be surprised at what works and what does not. But it is important to remember that many changes are just that and not improvements. The sound improvements cables can make is quite often subtle. Though not always, Ureka moments do exist. One thing you should also bear in mind is have the cables been run in fully. I know this is an issue too but most if not all cables benefit from running in IMHE. Also even if used they may also need a period of settling in (this is different to run in)-I don't understand that one but it can happen. Any suggestions as to why. Current needed to get the material loosened up to allow easier signal flow, perhaps ? Maybe thats BS, just an idea.
Above all have an open mind.
Regards D Louth
It worked. Brilliant. Sorry, but I could not seem to quote this on to this new thread. Can that be done ?
[Done - Beechwoods]
Regards D S D L---- Neil :)
StanleyB
21-12-2008, 16:42
This reminds me of when I started developing the THOR range in the late 90's. After nearly two years of R&D and many £ notes being spent, I was asked what guarantee I could give the company that I was on to a winner. I offered to resign if I didn't get a 5 star WHF award with any lead our MD wished to pick and submit for review. He picked the SCART lead and it dully got a 5 star award:). Then he brought in these guys from a company called MIT to see how they could help me. They couldn't. I was ahead of them in my R&D in a number of areas:lol:.
Primalsea
21-12-2008, 17:41
Interesting link
http://www.ultracad.com/articles/propagationtime.pdf
Not all cable marketing is bollocks
sastusbulbas
21-12-2008, 18:52
OK Guys, I'm here now! I think although were wrong, that we call interconnects cables, and vice versa.
Before diving in, what was the C**** cable and what was the RS part number, and what magazine/issue was it in.
When we get to the end of this thread, the world will be a different place!!
Regards
Dave
Quotes,
got some coax of a local dealer ages ago who said it was the same as C**** or T******** cant remember,attached a pic sounds like the stuff you're after though it's got 7 strand core
its labelled URM 67LE
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd115/sastusbulbas/urm67le.jpg
the belden cable can be found on this page, it is near the bottom code number 9913f7 in the RG-8/U section.
http://www.belden.com/pdfs/03Belden_Master_Catalog/06Coaxial_Cables/06.67_71.pdf
Ecoflex 10 Coax Cable
It is a 10.3mm diameter cable.
Center Diam 3mm pure stranded copper
Dielectric: - PE-LLC Foam closed cell.
Foil:- 100% Copper with Plastic backing
72% Copper wire Braid
Bend Radius: - 40mm minimum repeteable.
Outer Jacket: - uPVC Type 5 UV STABLE
C**** O******:
Conductor: 12 AWG Silver Plated Copper
Strands: 19 x 0.45mm
Dielectric: Teflon (PTFE)
PTFE Equipment wire:
RS Part no: 526-8403
Conductor AWG12
Strands 19 / 0.45mm
Conductor Material Silver-Plated Copper
Conductor Insulation PTFE
£73 +VAT 25m
Ecoflex15
Inner 7 x 1.55mm copper wire
Dielectric LLC-PE Foam
100% Foil Screen with PE Plastic backing
72% Copper wire braiding
£4.25 a meter
Just examples of C**** speaker cable alternatives, according to fora, as for magazines, well as I thought was clear, a reviewer said it was known that cable manufacturers re-badge stock stuff, at least eight manufacturers he knows of, but refused to comment further as it may upset the apple cart.
For the record I have defended C**** cable, sent email to Nigel, but never received robust evidence from anyone of claims being genuine or not.
sastusbulbas
21-12-2008, 18:58
Quote D Louth,
I have tried many cables over the years and up until recently had never been able to subcribe to the one brand cable loom. However having a chat with someone in the cable business a possible answer to this came up. The answer is consistency. Many cable companies who claim to make cables don't( unless fitting plugs can be called making). Many seek out and try cables, select them, label them and claim to make them. Even within a range say model x the interconnect and speaker cable are not the same cable even though that claim is made. Just dip into the RS catalogue/range made(which is huge). I am by the way not saying all cables are picked out of the ones RS make (there are other sources of cables out there). Now I don't have a problem with this. If time and trial is put into listening and selecting fine but the price should bear that out. To ask to much is a bloody cheek. Now if you make it or at the very least make/design and ask someone else to make it then you can claim to make cables. There are very few out there who do this, very few( you would be shocked about who does and doesn't. Legal reasons prevent me from saying. But you know who you are. SHAME ON YOU).
Shame you cannot name, but good to see confirmation of what I was told.
StanleyB
21-12-2008, 19:16
It is quite true that a lot of companies do not design their own cable. I spent many years designing cables for other companies as part of my job with my former employer. What did upset me is that a mega US company with a big name ended up buying a range of products from the same company in China with whom I was doing some ground breaking R&D work. If you look at my old site at http://www.thoravinterconnects.co.uk and look at some of the specs of say the phono connector I designed, you might pick up a few details that are very similar to things a US company patented. I can't offer proof of foul play, but I have my doubts.
There is a lot of technical stuff on that old site of mine that makes for god reading.
Stan
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 19:27
I'm confused. It was said on the other thread, that a C**** cable was reviewed and that it was identical to a RS cable. Did I remember this correctly from a few days ago?
What was the review (magazine issue), what was the C**** cable and what was the RS cable?
Thanks
Dave
jandl100
21-12-2008, 19:27
Legal reasons prevent me from saying .....
Yup, absolutely - let's all remember we need to stick by this. :) No names etc! It's all too easy to get carried away in the heat of the moment. ;)
Primalsea
21-12-2008, 19:30
The PTFE cable from RS is possibly the same as the C**** cable. There seems to be no way of checking that the spec of the copper used is identicle though.
Lets put things in perspective though:
Th RS cable works out at £6.86 per meter when used as a speaker cable (2 conductor).
This is not twisted so you have to do that yourself which is unlikely to be as acurate as as if it was done by a manufacturer and you would then have to put the silicon jacket on to stop the twists moving.
This means that you have to pay another £8 or so for the extra twisting and coating which is a little steep.
But then consider that you dont normally buy 25 mtrs of cable, usually 10 at the most for a non bi wire. So you would expect to pay a but extra for that.
Then think that you usually pay more for buying from the high street and the higher cost associated with well known brands and you are not really that far away. This higher cost is something that you find in all market areas, not just hifi.
And all this is relevant if the spec of the copper is infact the same.
What is more relevant though is if the RS stuff sounds the same, or better.
Legal reasons prevent me from saying .....
Yup, absolutely - let's all remember we need to stick by this. :) No names etc! It's all too easy to get carried away in the heat of the moment. ;)
Yes please!
Unless, of course, anyone has unequivocal proof!. Even then, 'on your own head be it'.
jandl100
21-12-2008, 19:42
Yes please!
Unless, of course, anyone has unequivocal proof!. Even then, 'on your own head be it'.
Errr .. actually it will be on the forum owner's head .... we'd really rather not go there, I think!
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 19:42
There are no legal reasons!!! Are there? If it is true then you can publish! If it is made up, then.....
Dave
Primalsea
21-12-2008, 19:44
It is quite true that a lot of companies do not design their own cable. I spent many years designing cables for other companies as part of my job with my former employer. What did upset me is that a mega US company with a big name ended up buying a range of products from the same company in China with whom I was doing some ground breaking R&D work. If you look at my old site at http://www.thoravinterconnects.co.uk and look at some of the specs of say the phono connector I designed, you might pick up a few details that are very similar to things a US company patented. I can't offer proof of foul play, but I have my doubts.
There is a lot of technical stuff on that old site of mine that makes for god reading.
Stan
Very weird, I was just looking at a cable makers website eariler as noticed something strange. I guess its absolutely fine for me to ask the question why.
From the Thor website:
Flat interconnects with parallel members typically have the highest propagation speeds and the widest bandwidth with some of them passing signals freely into the gigahertz region. Coaxial interconnects are also relatively high propagation speed, wide bandwidth designs. Flat and coaxial interconnects are the designs of choice for digital and radio frequency transmission. When these extremely wide band interconnects are used for audio applications, however, they are particularly subject to noise infiltration along the entire length of the interconnect, much like an antenna.
The standard ways to approach noise infiltration are through shielding and twisted pair technology, both of which limit interconnect bandwidth to an extent. Good shielding will reduce electrostatic (ES) noise infiltration. A twisted + and - pair will theoretically prevent electromagnetic (EM) noise infiltration by nulling out these noise frequencies. Interconnects that employ these geometries will still pass signals freely into the 100 megaHertz region and beyond, however, which is far more bandwidth than what is required for audio applications
.
In reality, however, twisted pair technology only goes part of the way toward cancelling out EM noise because the proximity of the twisted + and - pair is never identical over the whole length of the interconnect regardless of how carefully the interconnect is manufactured.
To reduce EM noise beyond what can be achieved through twisted pair technology requires a properly designed network fitted to the specific application and the length and type of interconnect.
Noise infiltration obscures the ability of the interconnect to transfer extremely low level harmonic and spatial information accurately, and it has a tendency to make the system sound brighter and harsher in the high frequency region than what is recorded on the source material. Increased noise floor directly affects our ability to perceive full dynamic range and all its gradations.
From the Transparent Cable website:
Flat cables with parallel members typically have the highest propagation speeds and the widest bandwidth with some of them passing signals freely into the gigahertz region. Coaxial cables are also relatively high propagation speed, wide bandwidth designs. Flat and coaxial cables are the designs of choice for digital and radio frequency transmission. When these extremely wide band cables are used for audio applications, however, they are particularly subject to noise infiltration along the entire length of the cable, much like an antenna.
Flat and coaxial cables ... are particularly subject to noise infiltration along the entire length of the cable, much like an antenna.
The standard ways to approach noise infiltration are through shielding and twisted pair technology, both of which limit cable bandwidth to an extent. Good shielding will reduce electrostatic (ES) noise infiltration. A twisted + and - pair will theoretically prevent electromagnetic (EM) noise infiltration by nulling out these noise frequencies. Cables that employ these geometries will still pass signals freely into the 100 megahertz region and beyond, however, which is far more bandwidth than what is required for audio applications.
In reality, however, twisted pair technology only goes part of the way toward canceling out EM noise because the proximity of the twisted + and - pair is never identical over the whole length of the cable regardless of how carefully the cable is manufactured.
To reduce EM noise beyond what can be achieved through twisted pair technology requires a properly designed network fitted to the specific application and the length and type of cable. Transparent interconnects are well shielded and both speaker cables and interconnects have twisted pair technology. Our networks clean up any residual EM noise not addressed by twisted pair technology by reducing the bandwidth of the cable to that which is required for the application. Limiting bandwidth to that which is required for the application is a basic audio engineering principle that is adopted in every other component category -- speakers, amplifiers, CD players, phono cartridges, etc.
Limiting bandwidth to that which is required for the application is a basic audio engineering principle that is adopted in every other component category -- speakers, amplifiers, CD players, phono cartridges, etc.
Noise infiltration obscures the ability of the cable to transfer extremely low level harmonic and spatial information accurately, and it has a tendency to make the system sound brighter and harsher in the high frequency region than what is recorded on the source material. Increased noise floor directly affects our ability to perceive full dynamic range and all its gradations.
I guess I'm within my rights as a consumer to ask whats going on here then.
sastusbulbas
21-12-2008, 19:51
I'm confused. It was said on the other thread, that a C**** cable was reviewed and that it was identical to a RS cable. Did I remember this correctly from a few days ago?
What was the review (magazine issue), what was the C**** cable and what was the RS cable?
Thanks
Dave
No claim was made of a review and that reviewer stating such.
Many C**** cables have been reviewed, reviewers have been "rumoured" to be aware these are stock catalogue cables, and over the years on other fora members have quoted "claimed" identical cables from catalogues.
People like me get sick of the "it is" it is not" table tennis and ask for someone of reputation to lay it on the line.
This never happens so those that claim C**** are out a catalogue win. People who have spent money feel like twats and start doubting and questioning other areas in audio, proof is provided by the non Foo brigade, no one of reputation comes forward in defence, and round and round in circles it goes, leading to the conclusions.
Of course no one CAN upset the apple cart, which only prove's Dave Price and the reviewers and all else is a huge pile of hype, the manufacturers control the reviewers when it should be the people! It's about lining pockets, not customer service.
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 19:52
If it is true then publish it. If not, apologise to C**** now whilst it is not too late? This board is well above this sort of thing!!!!
Dave
Errr .. actually it will be on the forum owner's head .... we'd really rather not go there, I think!
Quite right Jerry.
On that note could everyone be aware that I will 'soft delete' any post that I think may be overstepping the mark until such a time that an administrator has had chance to review it. At which time in may or may not be reinstated as they wish.
Please play nicely folks. :)
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 20:05
OK, are we saying it was all a dream, and I just woke up in the shower? And that C**** cable looks like some much cheaper cable, but isn't?
I can live with this!! but it is time for a beer~~~~~~~
The threat of moderation means I'm out of here.
Dave
sastusbulbas
21-12-2008, 20:13
Reviewers protect manufacturers, magazines protect manufacturers, manufacturers say nothing, genuine customers are ignored so **** them, the claims are dismissed but never disproved so remain viable therefore should be considered true until proven otherwise.
Another victory for the Anti-Foo Brigade!
OK... calm down please.
We don't want to lock the thread but will do if we think a cooling off period is necessary.
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 22:05
Another threat of moderation!!
jandl100
21-12-2008, 22:12
Another threat of moderation!!
Well, as they used to say in the Olde Dayes, "moderation in all things". :)
We really do need to keep a sense of proportion here, as well as our sense of humour ... is it worth Rob (Filterlab) finding himself threatened with a slander (or is it libel?) action, just 'cos you fancy having a bit of a rant?
Me? - I don't think so. Especially as Rob isn't around at the moment to fend for himself.
OK, let me clarify please.
All I'm trying to do is prevent unsubstantiated claims along the lines of (for example):
"Cable manufacturer 'A' is ripping you off because their cable is exactly the same as ' Cable B' from (say) RS Components at 1/10th of the price"
Such statements could have legal consequences for the poster AND the forum owner/s - I am not a lawyer, so as a precaution I may 'soft delete' the post until such a time as the admin team has the opportunity to review the post and reinstate or permanently delete it as they see fit.
However... what would be acceptable, in my view, would be statements along the lines of (for example):
"Why not try 'Cable B' from (say) RS Components, it's very similar to the product from 'Cable manufacturer A' and is a viable alternative, I've tried it."
or...
"It says in the December 1896 issue of HiFi Fiddler that they have tested the wire from 'Cable manufacturer A' and they say it is identical to 'Cable B' from (say) RS Components".
If you see what I mean.
Hope that helps?
Cheers...
StanleyB
21-12-2008, 22:42
I would be hard pressed to put the blame on the cable manufacturer. The manufacturer is not responsible for how much another company charges for a cable that is rebranded as an interconnect once a couple of plugs or sockets have been fitted to it. A large part of the profit margin is generated at the retail end.
Steve Toy
21-12-2008, 22:43
Dave my head is on the block here. Mods please edit out the company name rather than delete whole posts. I am at work so access limited.
sastusbulbas
21-12-2008, 22:57
OK, let me clarify please.
All I'm trying to do is prevent unsubstantiated claims along the lines of (for example):
No. The thread contains quotes and questions are asked if there can be substantial evidence provided for or against what is claimed in the quotes. You are stating that Manufacturers could close every upgrade thread because they do not agree with the opinion it improves upon their own kit, or close any thread where opinion states their kit poor! C**** were made aware of such claims a few years ago and had no legal re-course or involvement with the threads or forums.
It is public opinion in a public forum, we are not threatening to contact the CSA or such.
YOU are over reacting.
"Cable manufacturer 'A' is ripping you off because their cable is exactly the same as ' Cable B' from (say) RS Components at 1/10th of the price"
No, as far as I am aware this is not illegal, otherwise customers would have no rights, RA would not have been up in front of the CSA, A manufacturer can threaten action, but in doing so has to defend the claim and PROVIDE evidence contrary to the claim. C**** advertise their O****** cable exactly as the RS catalogue does RS Part no: 526-8403, CSA would have them address this if it was deemed a customer was wrong in court.
Such statements could have legal consequences for the poster AND the forum owner/s - I am not a lawyer, so as a precaution I may 'soft delete' the post until such a time as the admin team has the opportunity to review the post and reinstate or permanently delete it as they see fit.
Fair enough, Reviewers have also stated they "must" not upset the £apple£ cart.
However... what would be acceptable, in my view, would be statements along the lines of (for example):
"Why not try 'Cable B' from (say) RS Components, it's very similar to the product from 'Cable manufacturer A' and is a viable alternative, I've tried it."
or...
"It says in the December 1896 issue of HiFi Fiddler that they have tested the wire from 'Cable manufacturer A' and they say it is identical to 'Cable B' from (say) RS Components".
If you see what I mean.
No, many public forums contain threads claiming such cables are from catalogues, asking for confirmation is not accusing.
Hope that helps?
Cheers...
Thanks,
Steve
Sorry Steve,
Just following 'admin' instructions. Take it up with them.
I'm quite happy to be "wrong" BTW.
Regards...
Dave Cawley
21-12-2008, 23:06
OK guys, this is the first time ever I have been moderated in any public forum. I thought this list was different, enlightened, free for pettiness, and knowledgeable of the law.
This is a very sad day.
If anyone wants my take, help or advice on Hi Fi, please contact me at mail@DaveCawley.com
Dave
sastusbulbas
21-12-2008, 23:07
No it is to be expected, this place moderates in favour of, another place moderates against.
I have not seen any robust evidence anyone has their head on a block for opinion, and no one can provide any fact.
Therefore by the act of moderation itself the claim has been proven the fact. As it is has not been disproved, but subdued.
This Forum like the magazines is out to look after itself.
Please may I remind everyone of the following (copied from 'Ethos'):
Things we don't like here:
Defamatory comments about any manufacturers or dealers.
Defamatory comments about any other member of this forum or any other hi-fi forum.
'Willy waving' (i.e. boasting about one's system in a monetary value sense).
Swearing excessively. The occasional bit may slip thorough, but nobody wants to hear 'f this' and 'f that' all day long.
And no porn or links to porn please.
Steve Toy
21-12-2008, 23:17
Personal opinion is fine. Dave, The moderation I asked for was very moderate and precautionary. Please don't over react. The essence of your post is intact.
Spectral Morn
21-12-2008, 23:20
Firstly thank you Beachwoods for helping me with my post. Tape info to follow soon, sorry for delay.
As I said in my main post, which I thought was relevant for this debate I for one have no problem with anyone trying hundreds or thousands of catalogue cables, different types of plugs, solder, screening, types of returns , strands etc. Time is money and the cost in ordering enough samples to try everything out would be fairly high. There will also be a degree of design expertise ( even with doing all of this ), all of this will lead to a good range of cables at (hopefully sensible prices ). I suppose it is also Okay to re-brand these cables as the application and configuration is different enough to warrant that. However what I hate above all is those who claim that they make everything in house, including the raw cable stock. There are a lot of dishonest people around. Soldering plugs does not make you the manufacturer, just the finisher/assembler.
The number who make all in house is small, very small. In fact I can name them on just about my two hands and feet.
The reason this all came to light was that I was asking a certain manufacturer, why I had not had a lot of success with one brand cable looms. He posed the question, " do you suppose that range X uses the same materials throughout ?". I thought about it and said that I hoped so. He stated that very few do and that is why I had not had the success I should have had. This came as a shock but explained why what had happened over many years, had occurred. I tried his cables and the results were consistent through out. He does not claim to make( the raw cable stock ) in house but has designed cables and had them made to order, and so that the cables will also be long term consistent too. Some companies change cable ranges when they run out of what they have bought in the past.The original supplier can't remake what they have deleted (for what ever reason). So sorry sometimes the latest improvements are not that, but just a new batch of different cable to replace the discontinued raw cable stock.
I suppose the reason there is a lack of honesty is it just doesn't look good if you can't say you make it. Plus there would be nothing to stop the public finding out and making their own versions. This is still dis-honest and a scandal if massive prices are charged. It is a lot harder for the public to find out about parts costs ( with cables. If you can identify the cable used,otherwise very hard to do this) as there are tens of thousands of cables out there, loads of catalogues and aero-space industry sources etc . The costings of other items made are a bit easier to work out,unless the parts numbers are wiped off or the parts are encased in goop and you would have to destroy a good product to find out.
The magic pixie dust claims of some cables are a different matter. I know how many feel about this, but I guess at the end of the day, you try it, if it works and you think it is worth the money, you buy. If not you try and make your own. Years ago when I worked in another shop we tried telephone cable and got good results. The number of signal strands used and the returns made a difference ( as did how it was wound. This was 18 years ago before this was well known about ) to the sound some good some bad, we used WBT's (this was before there was much termination choice options).
Anyway I can't name names so I am sorry about that but I for one could not afford any legal issues. Corporate lawyers are about as low as it gets, and trust me even the truth, would not win out. You would loose and be millions out of pocket.
regards D S D L ---- Neil :)
Spectral Morn
21-12-2008, 23:41
Guys the moderation is not just for AOS benefit but yours too. No one likes to be gagged but unless you have millions to defend yourself in court and cast iron proof to prove your point sources I would err to the extreme side of caution.
I for one like AOS and do not want to see it vanish because the owner has been taken for every penny he has and does not have, which is what will happen. It is also likely that you who post will also suffer legal action, if the company attacked feel it is you who have done the damage.
Being a whistle blower is not a good place to be in. Have any of you seen the The Insider ? I rest my case.
I for one think that the English language is rich enough ( more than enough words ) not to use the F.... Word. It is over used IMHO and I for one try very hard not to, and certainly not in print. Its pretty cheap as words go, plus offensive to many.
Regards D S D L---- Neil :)
Primalsea
22-12-2008, 00:35
Hang on! where did those posts go I was reading a minute ago!
2 things in my mind:
1 The post only said that someone else had sid that the RS cable was the same as someone elses who sells it for more. the poster did not say it was exactly the same stuff from the same source. The same in this instance was generic as is RG59 from so and so is the same as RG59 from someone else.
However its not a good idea to invite trouble, especially when people will read it and take it as gospel that both cables are the same and from the same manufactuer.
Its not really the post thats the problem its how someone may use the information irresponsibly. I cant see that anyone would have issue with there post being modified for this reason, especially when its still obvious what was originally said.
Also 2, I have to ask what was the original intent of this thread. Was it AOS just being used to put out the Rumour about the practices of a cable manufactuer?? If so its quite right to moderate. If its just to inform that you can buy very similar cable for much less then thats fine.
Thread reopened. If anyone would like to add further comment please feel free to do so :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-12-2008, 21:48
How can what anyone says in a post be actionable? It is,after all,only the opinion of the poster,and as such surely is not actionable,even if presented in the post as fact.
Chaps,
If this discussion is to continue, I must insist that it centres on cables and not the business practices of manufacturers. Thanks in advance :)
Marco.
Primalsea
25-12-2008, 10:51
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f23/primalsea/Poppy-Field.jpg
Looks like the shelling's over then.
Theres a huge amount of research gone into cables and a whole load of serious theory. When this theory is explained to you in a easily understandable way many of the ideas (shall we call them) that hifi cable manufacturers have seem less like snake oil. This is in opposition to marketing that the majority of manufacturers use which for the most part is utter bollocks.
So aside from the possibility that the marketing spin is only to help sell cables and huge prices why dont some of them just issue sensible technical documents and marketing?
On a side note if you think that some hifi cables are expensive you should buy some for industrial machines and equipment. I have seen bespoke but basic cables cost over £1000.
So aside from the possibility that the marketing spin is only to help sell cables and huge prices why dont some of them just issue sensible technical documents and marketing?
I guess because it's not 'sexy' enough. People's attention spans are finite and so advertising/marketing has to appeal to the mindsets of the masses. The fact is few are 'excited' by the mundane nature of technical documents and would much rather read something sensationalistic and 'funky' to satisfy their need to upgrade cables, even if what's written is fanciful nonsense and ultimately of little real value.
As far as cables are concerned, I've learned that they do indeed make a difference but the best ones are often those based on the use of high quality materials and solid engineering principles, and not those masquerading as such but which are little more than 'audiophile jewellery'.
Marco.
Primalsea
28-12-2008, 11:30
I've been thinking about this. If we are to say a cable from ***** can be bought for a lot less from RS or Farnell etc then we have to consider the following:
Is the cable made in the same factory?
Is the conductor geometry the same? - the cable from RS seemed to have braided strands.
Is the insulation the same?
- Pink insulation obviously has die in it making it not 100% PTFE.
- Also is the insulation exactly the same, Virgin PTFE or Reconstituted
Is the copper grade the same?
Is the silver grade the same?
Is the silver plating thickness the same?
Is the OD the same?
Surface quality of the conductor the same?
Manufacturing quality of the cable the same?
If the answer is yes then theres a good chance you can say its the same, if its no to any of these then its not the same cable.
Yes, good point Paul! :)
Marco.
My tuppeny's worth. I use only one brand of cable: Kimber. I have used them ever since buying some 4TC speaker cable about 20 years ago which did wonders over the QED 79 stand I'd been using until then. Now I have some pretty esoteric (and expensive) Kimber Select hybrid silver/copper cables for my balanced interconnects and speaker cables.
Why do I use Kimber? Their cables have a homogeneous and complimentary sound encouraging you to keep to the same cable type throughout. I once tried Nordost and couldn't get on with it at all; not a comment on Nordost as such, but a strong validation that cables are synergistic and complimentary to a system. I also know that Kimber make all their own cables in-house and invest heavily in R&D. Ray Kimber speaks sense and appears to have a great understanding of what makes cables work.
Ultimately, I use Kimber cables because they sound better than any other brand I've tried and because they don't get in the way of good system performance. Yes, they're expensive but I've bought slowly over the years such that I now have a full set.
I liked the Kimber KCAG interconnect very much.
Now I use Transparent , partly because of their ( and the AS dealer's ) very good upgrade policy.
Why do I use Kimber? Their cables have a homogeneous and complimentary sound encouraging you to keep to the same cable type throughout. I once tried Nordost and couldn't get on with it at all; not a comment on Nordost as such, but a strong validation that cables are synergistic and complimentary to a system.
100% correct. The synergy achieved by using the same cable loom (doesn't matter the manufacturer) throughout is vital in achieving long term musical satisfaction from your system.
The fact that you're so satisfied with your system, Martin, and not chopping and changing equipment every two minutes chasing some unattainable goal, is in no small part due to the attention to detail you've paid to cables, mains set-up, and stands. Never underestimate their cumulative effect on your enjoyment of music...
Not enough people pay proper attention to the fundamentals!
Marco.
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