Croft questions/advice

[Robert James]

I'm hoping some of the helpful people here at The Art of Sound might be willing to offer me some assistance and share some insights from any relevant personal experience.

I'm interested in the Croft Micro 25/Series 7 valve amplifier combination.

I've never used valves in my system before but I'm intrigued by everything I've read about Croft and I find myself attracted to the reviews of its sound, design philosophy, build quality, price, etc. I don't want to buy anything made in China and I'd prefer something built in the U.K. rather than over here.

Unfortunately, there is no Croft dealer where I live so it's impossible to audition the amps in my system (or to even hear them somewhere else). I suppose I could always wait to listen to them by visiting a dealer in the U.K. next time I'm over.

There are options to obtain Croft in North America but I would be buying online (new or used) and I'd be flying blind, so to speak. I could always simply re-sell them but, at the very least, I would appreciate any thoughts/opinions people on the forum might have to share with me.

I am currently running a Naim Nait 5i-2 with Kudos X2 speakers. My listening is almost entirely analogue-based (I run both a Rega P7 and a Thorens TD 125 MKII).

Due to room issues, I have a nearfield setup with my listening position about 8 feet or 2.5 meters from the speakers.

In this setup the Nait 5i performs very well, at least to my liking.

What I'm wondering is whether the Croft will be able to drive these speakers at least to a point where I can appreciate the benefits of what the Crofts have to offer, sound wise.

Or, should I have to expect to make a speaker change as well?

Has anyone here used the Micro 25/Series with Kudos X2s or any other speakers in the same range of size or efficiency (Harbeth, Spendor, Neat, etc.)?

Many thanks for your time and consideration.

[hifi_dave]

You'll have no trouble whatsoever driving the X2 with Croft amps, - it's something I've done often. The Croft Series 7 drives stacked Quad ESL57's, so a pair of X2's is no problem.

The quality of the Croft is such that you could easily use it with far better speakers, should you wish.

[Robert James]

Thanks very much for the response, Dave!

You did mean Croft and not Quad amps though, yes ;) ?

[jostber]

This is a nice article on Croft systems:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/croft/croft.html

The article links to this site as the Canadian distributor:

http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/

[hifi_dave]

Thanks very much for the response, Dave!

You did mean Croft and not Quad amps though, yes ;) ?

Oooops.

Shouldn't respond after a large meal and booze..:cool:

Yes, I meant Croft and I have now corrected my blunder.

The Croft power-amps have a lot of drive even though rated at only 50 watts and they do work well with the Kudos X2.

[tubehunter]

croft are high quality Solid State Mosfet amps not valve amps.

should have the same drive as your naim.

[DSJR]

Oh, but they're SOOOOOOOOO much better, the current Nait 5ixs or whatever it's called having a driving bass, pleasant mid but with a grainy and rolled off treble...

[hifi_dave]

croft are high quality Solid State Mosfet amps not valve amps.

should have the same drive as your naim.

They are Hybrid - tube i/p, Mosfet o/p.

[jostber]

And most of all, the Croft amps are known for having a very high SPPV factor. :)

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14310&highlight=SPPV

[tubehunter]

like I said mosfets

[Robert James]

Please pardon my ignorance but I can't say I know what Mosfet means.

[Robert James]

This is a nice article on Croft systems:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/croft/croft.html

The article links to this site as the Canadian distributor:

http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/

Thanks. I did contact Bluebird previously and they were the ones who indicated to me that there is no Croft dealer in/around Toronto.

Funny that, especially since Bluebird is in Toronto and Toronto (or the metro area more generally) has the largest number of hifi shops in the country.

Alas.

[Covenant]

Just a point you might not have thought of Robert. It's possible to get just the power amp and use the pre-amp in a dac such as the Beresford (although there are plenty of others).
I find this perfectly satisfactory but may try the Micro 25 at some time in the future. Alternatively there are plenty of cheap line only pre-amps.

[hifi_dave]

like I said mosfets

and a tube in the Seven and two tubes in the Seven R.

Hybrid.

[Harry Hill]

Hi I don't post much, but this seems like a good time to join in.

I use the new croft intergrated (a valve pre with a 7 series power in the same box) with my Eminent Technology LFT-8b loud speakers which are rated at a miserable 83db and in my 4m x 6m room they are more than enough and I have to say the Bass from this little amp is stompingly fantastic far better than the 45 watt ating would suggest.:lol:

[Robert James]

I have to say that reading all of these replies and doing some more research online has me very enthusiastic about the Micro 25/Series 7.

As mentioned before, I admire Glenn's approach when it comes to the sound, build and price of these amps. But, from what everyone says, the sound is also exactly what I'm after at this point.

The only difficulty I'll likely have is obtaining the Croft kit here in Canada.

There's no dealer in/around Toronto and the North American distributor (Bluebird) hasn't yet provided me with any additional information regarding whether there is even a Croft dealer in the rest of Canada.

Acoustic Sounds (an online dealer in the U.S.) sells them so I suppose I could order from them as a last resort, though I have some discomfort about the lack of dealer support...

It sounds as though Glenn is quite accommodating when it comes to dealing with customers directly who are outside dealer areas but I suspect he might not be so keen when it comes to one all the way over here in Canada.

At any rate, I'm in no great hurry so I'll continue to consider my options and keep reading up on and learning more about Croft.

Thanks to all of you for your willingness to help me out and answer questions.

[northwest]

I have had a friend around today and he brought with him his Croft Pre-Amp for me to try in my system.
His is the Micro Basic of the current range. As you might know, my present pre-amp is a Quad 34 heavily modified by Les at Avondale. First thing was a rummage through the parts bins for a couple of interconnects as the ones for the Quad don't fit! (didn't see that coming) Anyhow, my impression is that it was not "better" than the Quad pre, Different is the description.
It was definately brighter, much brighter. I would need to live with it for a better description but the sound was definately brighter. The issue we had though was that there was far too much gain, the volume pots did not take much moving to significantly increase the volume.
Would there be a simple fix for this?

[DSJR]

What power amp do you use? The 303, 405 and 306 (definitely early ones, but i don't remember if the power amp gain was modernised in the later 306/405's..) are VERY sensitive and in the case of my 303, changing the value of two resistors (one per channel) sorted it completely, going from 22K to 68K. Increasing to 100K reduces the sensitivity even more but may go too far for the limited output on a 34 and/or 33.

If you play CD, the 34 apparently needs to be used on the "radio" input for best results. The 33 gain issues are well documented and not relevant here..

As for the Croft sounding brighter. I can't say 100% if it's a case of the Croft being lively-neutral and the Quad soft-neutral (although that's my thinking, knowing them both as I do), but some careful tube rolling would calm the Series 25 Basic down if you felt this to be a problem - the standard Micro 25 does sound rather more refined, relaxed and slightly less "scrappy" in comparison and the "R" expands this rather further. A stock Quad 34 always sounded a bit soggy and limp-wristed to me - in my opinion - and not like the closely related 44 at all, although why this should be so I've no idea (I used many examples of each over their entire production lifetime and can confirm the 44 got rather better when it went chocolate/grey and phono/IEC sockets). I obviously don't know what Les has done to your 34, which inverts the absolute phase I believe.

All I can say further is that I've used various Croft preamps with various Quad power amps and the combination is intrinsically a great one IMO. Should you ever end up with this (assuming you use a Quad power amp), then my recommendation would be to reduce the power amp gain (which reduces the noise floor I'm told) and keep as much level travelling down the signal leads from the preamp as you can :)

[hifi_dave]

The Croft pre's can be ordered with less gain to suit very sensitive power-amps like Leak etc.