View Full Version : The PS Audio Regenerator Thread
This article is about PS Audio Power Plants in particular and power regenerators in general.
The first principle to make clear is that a regenerator is fundamentally different from a filter. Filters attempt to condition the mains waveform in order to clear it of noise and hash. They can do nothing to repair a distorted waveform. They also tend to introduce some worsening of impedance into the mains supply to the equipment, sapping its dynamics and slam to a degree.
Balanced transformers are another idea, mainly introduced into a system to rid the mains of any residual DC which can impair the funtionality of component power supplies by isolating the output from the utility supply. They frequenty incorporate some filtering too.
A regenerator uses reconstruction techniques to either fully construct a mains waveform from scratch, or actively repair it 'on the fly' in order to produce a perfect sinewave. In discussing regenerators we need to use examples from the PS Audio range over the years since they single-handedly introduced the concept of regeneration for hi-fi systems into the marketplace. This is as distinct from UPS battery backup systems for computers which usually generate a nasty dirty squarewave for powering the machine. Regenerators can also (but not all models) actively reduce the impedance powering the system as compared with the wall socket, enhancing system dynamics and potentially further lowering the noise floor.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/PowerPlantWaves.jpg
First Generation
The first generation of devices, the P300, P600 and P1200, converted the incoming mains to DC by rectification and storage. They then used essentially a monster power amplifier to generate a pure 120VAC* waveform generated by a crystal clocking circuit and DAC to create the sinewave. A choice of output frequencies from 50 to 110Hz was selectable. They ran hot - very hot - due to their inefficient class AB design and they had limited power capability. In fact, only the giant P1200 had any chance of powering an entire system from clean mains and would have heated the room unbearably on summer days. The P300 could only supply source components and a preamp and you could almost cook eggs on the top plate after some hours of use.
*European versions added a 120-220VAC step-up transformer to generate the output voltages required. Not ideal, and it added to their heat output and weight.
Two mods came along during these products' lifetimes: a better DAC ROM board defining the waveforms more precisely, and Multiwave. This latter invention added small amounts of harmonics to the chosen output frequency, rounding their peaks and providing more charge to equipment power supplies during a complete cycle.
http://www.audioreview.com/Channels/AudioReview/images/products/Product_324507.jpg
The small P300 certainly demonstrated to many enthusiasts a cost effective way in which, at last, their source components and preamps could be driven from a pure, noise-free power supply. The benefits were clearly audible in a lowered noise floor, better dynamics and finely resolved soundstage. My experience with the P300, having tried all modes, was that the 60Hz Multiwave option provided the best drive and the best resultant sound quality.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/images/ps-audio-power-plant-300.jpg http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/ps-audio-p600.jpg
Second Generation
The second generation product was the Power Plant Premier and it entailed a complete re-think of how to go about generating a pure mains waveform. Instead of generating the waveform from scratch, this clever device 'rode' the incoming mains waveform with a small, efficient, amplifier and repaired the waveform by adding or subtracting current, compared with the ideal sinewave, to provide a corrected output waveform. The objective was to achieve much higher efficiency, higher power output and cooler running. With either 1kW or 1.5kW output capability, depending on which specs you believed, it succeeded in being the first regenerator capable of comfortably and efficiently powering an entire system. Frequency selection was gone (since the mains waveform was reconstructed), but Multiwave was still selectable in order to increase the charge time into component power supplies per cycle.
For the first time, the benefits of operating an entire system from regenerated mains, including the power amplifier, became clearly demonstrable. All the benefits of the P300 were manifested, only more so, with an especially low noise floor and black silences, as well as low output impedance and increased dynamic range.
The PPP also introduced Cleanwave, whereby a special degaussing waveform could be generated for 5s or 60s in order to degauss all the equipment connected to it. It's certainly controversial, but in my experience it gives a useful further 'cleaning' function if used before every listening session.
Unfortunately, PS Audio made the decision to move manufacturing of the PPP to China. It was not a happy move and reliability dramatically suffered with many reported failures of these later units. For the next generation, they decided to bring manufacturing back into the USA and suffer the necessarily higher factory costs that that would entail.
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/pics/200811_psaudio_pp.jpg
Third Generation
The third, and current, generation of regenerators build upon the excellent operating principles of the PPP with two models designed to provide 1kW and 1.2kW output respectively. The smaller P5 incorporates active (fan) cooling, while the larger P10 operates silently through passive cooling in the form of large heatsinks. The P10 also has twice the energy storage of the P5.
The key improvement in these devices is the increased storage (magnetics in PS AUdio parlance) and ability to respond to instantaneous fluctuations in demand, leading to very low output impedance (one hundredth that of the PPP) and improved dynamic power. They are also designed to be more resilient, the P10 for European markets capable of handling up to 280VAC input swings.
Finally, the P5 and P10 are more intelligent and use colour touch operating screens. They feature phased power-up of the components of a hi-fi system (e.g. the power amp can be fired up last), and can be connected to a network for remote control power up or power down over the internet and e-mailed power alerts.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/PSPWPP5.jpg http://www.partsconnexion.com/media/product/finished/psaudio_75566.jpg
Regenerator Characteristics
So what does a regenerator do for a system and why should you use one? The most obvious and most easily audible difference is the total lack of noise and interference. No mains-borne interference, no clicks and pops intruding into the music. Secondly is the apparent lowering of the noise floor when playing music, this by operating the components' power supplies without the distortion and overlaid DC that causes transformer vibration, intermodulation or other interference artifacts. Thirdly is the effect of rapid response to power demands and very low output impedance. This manifests as a level of dynamic swing and effortlessness that transforms a system from capable to outstanding and distinctly improves transparency and clarity. The sense of increased headroom, widened soundstage and purity of reproduction is very rewarding.
In my view, a regenerator is as important, if not more so, as any of the components of a qood quality hi-fi system. I would go so far as to say that above a given price level a regenerator is an absolute must since any further expenditure will not give as good a return in sound quality for the cost. All users of regenerators that I have spoken to would never be without one again.
Jack Williams
13-02-2012, 01:58
Highly interesting. I wonder what it would do for a valve amp...
Would for instance the large power xfmr smooth the waveform instead??
Thanks, Jack. I've used my PPP with two valve amps (Rogers Cadet III and Leak Stereo 20) and I can say that they definitely benefit over being plugged into the raw mains. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'smooth the waveform', remember that regenerators are active devices and will preserve the waveform no matter the load (up to the maximum load). It doesn't matter whether it's a valve or transistor amp with a big power transformer; indeed even my Chord power amp with its switched mode PSU responds very well to being driven by the PPP despite the naysayers (who clearly haven't listened to this setup) suggesting that a SMPS cannot benefit from clean mains due to its chopping action.
The Grand Wazoo
13-02-2012, 08:19
In discussing regenerators we need to use examples from the PS Audio range over the years since they single-handedly introduced the concept of regeneration for hi-fi systems into the marketplace.
I think Accuphase were the first to do this Martin (PS-500 1996) (http://www.accuphase.com/cat/ps-500en.pdf)
http://file.blog-fuchinobe.audiounion.jp/ps500.JPG
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'smooth the waveform',
Quite, within this context, the phrase "smooth the waveform" doesn't mean anything to me either.
I think Accuphase were the first to do this Martin
Fantastic! I've never come across it, Chris. Do you know what year that was introduced as it doesn't seem to appear on the brochure? Interesting that their technique is a variation of the PPP's circuit by modifying the existing waveform with a difference amp.
I'll modify my text if necessary but I'll stand by my statement that PS Audio really got the ball rolling with mass sales of regenerators.
jandl100
13-02-2012, 09:21
.... All users of regenerators that I have spoken to would never be without one again.
Umm. Well. Hello! :wave:
I had a PS Audio P300 regenerator when they first came out, the first of PSA's products of this ilk, as you state, Martin.
They've sure as heck come a long way since then ... the P300 had distinct power limitations, ran bloody hot and had a noisy fan. :rolleyes:
But ... yes, it had a significant affect/effect on the sound and I heard no real down'sides, only positives. And in practice, it could drive rather more than its modest power rating implied, being able to handle small power amps as well.
But I've not invested in subsequent generations of regenerators ... although occasionally I am tempted!
The P300 certainly gave a good chunk of what was to come and is great for source components. I would never have dared try a power amp, Jerry!
If you've heard what they can do, and you're tempted, what's stopping you box shifter extraordinaire? :)
jandl100
13-02-2012, 10:07
The P300 certainly gave a good chunk of what was to come and is great for source components. I would never have dared try a power amp, Jerry!
Well, it could certainly handle a small integrated amp.
Darn, I wish I could remember the name of the dealer who imported the PSA gear at first - guy from Senegal? One of those west African countries, I think ...
Anyway, he came round to my place (then in Surrey) a few times with the P300 and various cables (Synergistic Research, iirc).
I fondly recall a visit after I'd had the P300 a few months. My new pride and joys were a pair of Jadis JA80 valve monoblocks ...
he goggled at the system for a few seconds, then got down on his hands and knees and traced the mains cabling ... yes, they really were running and sounding mighty fine from the P300! :lol:
I was using them without the HT switched on - they sounded quite excellent into my ProAc Response 3 speakers. :D
If you've heard what they can do, and you're tempted, what's stopping you box shifter extraordinaire? :)
Ah well here's where I get a little contentious. :) I disagree with one of your conclusions ...
I would go so far as to say that above a given price level a regenerator is an absolute must since any further expenditure will not give as good a return in sound quality for the cost.
In my opinion, spending the £1k-£2k or so needed for a PPP elsewhere in the system on a better amp or source component, say, is a better way of spending a constrained budget where that is a typical max amount spent per component.
With a less constrained budget, then sure, have it all!
Dingdong
13-02-2012, 10:16
According to the two waveforms in the op it shows that there is some distortion on the waveform.
Once this is rectified and smoothed how much difference will it make?
In the second waveform the seems to be a bit of noise on the tops of the peaks. Won't this get through to the rectified and smoothed dc?
Darn, I wish I could remember the name of the dealer who imported the PSA gear at first - guy from Senegal? One of those west African countries, I think ...
I think it was Senanu?
jandl100
13-02-2012, 11:52
Senanu. Yes! That's it. What a nice guy. :)
According to the two waveforms in the op it shows that there is some distortion on the waveform.
Once this is rectified and smoothed how much difference will it make
That's just it Mark - noise causes issues further down the line as power supplies never have infinite rejection ratio. It can manifest as vibrations in the transformer or noise on the DC lines of the components - it can never be completely smoothed away. Power supplies are the starting point for your precious waveform - GIGO applies.
In my house, the incoming waveform distortion is about 1.2% at 252V and the outgoing waveform from my PPP is 0.3% at 242V. Apparently the P5/P10 comfortably beat those outgoing distortion figures.
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 16:44
You forgot about a couple of other regenerators Martin :)
Here's a P500 & it's for sale... (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ps-audio-PS500-POWER-PLANT-/250985053739?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a6fdffe2b)
There was also a P2000 which looked similar to the P600/1200 but was obviously a little bit bigger :eyebrows:
Yes, as you say, I would hate to be without my P600 even if it does get kind of warm in here during the summer months :D
Looks like Monarchy audio are getting in on the bandwagon, info here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monarchy-VFCar-Voltage-Frequency-Convrt-AC-Regenerator-/260837359381?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbb1e3f15).
Lite Audio Regenerator here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LITE-AUDIO-P100-POWER-REGENERATOR-100W-/110818065775?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cd457d6f).. Only 100W mind ;)
Thanks for that info, Mark. I've never come across the P500, any idea what generation it's from, or does it fit betwen the ones I've described? Was it sold in the UK?
The P2000 must be a beast :eek:
In my opinion, spending the £1k-£2k or so needed for a PPP elsewhere in the system on a better amp or source component, say, is a better way of spending a constrained budget where that is a typical max amount spent per component.
Well yes, indeed. I was careful to say 'at a certain level', although I do believe that once that level has been reached spending on mains regeneration makes more sense than another upgrade.
The reason I'm buying a P10 is that I cannot think of a better way to upgrade my entire system in any other area. It's pretty balanced in terms of performance capability throughout the chain.
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 18:13
I think it came out just after the P300 did & prior to the big bad 600, 1200 & 2000.
Yes the 500 was sold in the UK, if you take a look at the pics on the enbay link you'll see UK sockets on the rear :)
I believe the P2000 weighed in somewhere around the 200lbs mark & that would be the US version without the extra step up transformer :eek:
I'd upload the Manual for P series but it looks like the PDF file size is a bit bigger than 19.5Kb :eyebrows:
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 18:16
Well yes, indeed. I was careful to say 'at a certain level', although I do believe that once that level has been reached spending on mains regeneration makes more sense than another upgrade.
I'd suggest that if someone is willing to spend upwards of say £500 on any one piece of kit then they'll certainly appreciate the difference that a regenerator would bring to the equation.
Ok, so they might need to look at a secondhand one, but I just don't want to even contemplate going back to not having one :cool:
The Grand Wazoo
13-02-2012, 18:52
Do you know what year that was introduced as it doesn't seem to appear on the brochure?
It was introduced in 1996 Martin - I did note this in my post but I guess you could've missed it as it was beside the model number.
There was a bigger one too - the PS-1200 which was introduced the following year. These were superseded in 2000 by the 'V' versions PS-500V & PS-1200V & then came the PS-1210 (http://www.accuphase.com/cat/ps-1210_e.pdf) in 2005
http://www.salonhifi.ru/img/i2633_b1.jpg
Accuphase PS-1210
I'll modify my text if necessary but I'll stand by my statement that PS Audio really got the ball rolling with mass sales of regenerators.
I first heard about them when they first appeared but, as with a lot of Accuphase gear, they aren't exactly commonplace in the UK (patchy distribution & very high prices). You're correct in that PS Audio brought the technology to the attention of the US & UK market in a way that Accuphase never could.
I was wondering if there is an audible improvement with a mains regenerator over a properly implemented dedicated mains and balanced transformer.
If my memory servers me Mark and Martin, you've had both at some point.
Unfortunately my dedicated mains still returns to the supply earth so part of the benefit is lost.
It might work out a cheaper option than a dedicated mains in some circumstances.
My next question is do these things have a life expectancy and if so how long?
realysm42
13-02-2012, 18:59
I don't understand how these work, do you charge them up and then let them convert what they've absorbed? I read on one of the sites Mark linked to they are seperate from the mains?
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 19:05
I was wondering if there is an audible improvement with a mains regenerator over a properly implemented dedicated mains and balanced transformer.
My next question is do these things have a life expectancy and if so how long?
A regenerator will out perform a dedicated mains spur with a balanced transformer - yes. Though why not still have the dedicated mains on top of that :) The PS Audio P300 - 2000 output balanced mains, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned... I couldn't tell you about the new P5 or P10 or the earlier PPP.
I guess the life expectancy in the case of my P600 will be about the same as any other high quality, or should I say fairly expensive 300W RMS per channel stereo amplifier. Effectively that is exactly what it is with both channels in a bridge driving the output transformer.
Cheers Mark :)
I might be moving so this needs thinking about. It will be one or the other in the short term at least.
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 19:20
I don't understand how these work, do you charge them up and then let them convert what they've absorbed? I read on one of the sites Mark linked to they are seperate from the mains?
Noooo... What they are effectively is a dirty great big power amplifier, or in the case of the PPP onwards a smaller amplifier that corrects the mains.
Just like a loudspeaker is fed music via your amplifier it could also be fed a clean sine wave. Now that is exactly what these things do - they output a clean 50Hz (or up to 120Hz) sine wave so your stereo equipment is fed clean power rather than distorted & noisy power which you'd get from the mains.
You often hear it said that your stereo sounds best in the early hours of the morning. This is because just about everyone else has gone to bed in the neighbourhood & switched all the stuff off that generates noise on the mains. Well these things give you that clean (if not cleaner by a wide margin) mains at all times of the day :D
Cheers Mark :)
I might be moving so this needs thinking about. It will be one or the other in the short term at least.
In all honesty I'd never want to be without one for feeding my front end again! Given a budget I'd reduce it for the normal kit just to make sure I could buy a regenerator to power the stuff :cool:
realysm42
13-02-2012, 19:37
Thanks for the explanation.
Mark, would you use the same logic as you would with a conditioner of filter here; you mentioned getting one that's vastly over specced for the units it's supplying the power to?
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 19:46
No, it's not needed in this instance :) You see any conditioner will increase the impedance of the mains supply, so to lessen this evil you need to really seriously over spec a conditioner so as not to impact in a negative way...
These things can lower the impedance of the supply, so as long as it can supply all the power your kit needs you don't need to go overboard.
realysm42
13-02-2012, 20:10
Is this an item that will have a different effect depending on your location?
I've read a lot of people saying these are solutions to problems they don't have, or would it benefit everyone to have in their system do you think?
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 20:15
That's just it Mark - noise causes issues further down the line as power supplies never have infinite rejection ratio. It can manifest as vibrations in the transformer or noise on the DC lines of the components - it can never be completely smoothed away. .
It can be smoothed away, but it does require a bit of lateral thinking ;).
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 20:19
I'd say that it would vary depending on where you live, but only to a certain extent ;)
I'm assuming you have a refridgerator & possibly a freezer? You obviously have some form of PC, be it a laptop or standard PC, I'm guessing a TV as well & just about everything that goes along with that... Well they all generate a significant amount of mains interference, from the compressor on your fridge switching on & off to the high frequency noise that an SMPS will inject into the mains ;) All modern flatscreen TVs use SMPS, so do most other things that go along with them. They all generate random noise as all the SMPS will be working at slightly different frequencies :rolleyes:
That's just the tip of the iceberg, if you live in a village, town or city you have everyone elses garbage on your mains line as well... Ok, maybe not everyone, but definately everyone fed from the same substation as you! That could be a thousand houses :rolleyes:
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 20:21
It can be smoothed away, but it does require a bit of lateral thinking ;).
Oh, without reducing the supply impedance? If so you are the only person on the planet that knows how to do this :eyebrows:
If my memory servers me Mark and Martin, you've had both at some point.
.
.
.
My next question is do these things have a life expectancy and if so how long?
Never in my system, John, although I've heard balanced transformers in other systems. I've never been able to directly compare them.
As for life expectancy, I've used my Powerplant Premier since I bought it in 2007 24/7 (i.e. never switched off). It has given me perfect service.
realysm42
13-02-2012, 20:33
Possible stupid question alert, were your electricity bills noticably higher after adding them to your systems?
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 20:37
The PPP & P5 & P10 are very efficient, so I doubt they'd make any noticable impact on your power usage, the same can't be said of my P600.
It runs hot even supplying 90 - 100W. Though I can't say I have noticed a big difference, maybe £15 or £20 on a quarterly bill..
Cheap compared to the jukebox down the local pub :D
Ah, my apologies Martin, so much info and only a few brain cells left to juggle it between. ;)
I haven't yet come across something I fully understand explaining how these things work. I remember looking at them many years ago, when I first installed a dedicated mains in fact, but they were way too expensive to even consider then. Initially I assumed there was an inverter in the system, but it seems I'm mistaken.
It would be interesting to compare one to say Marco's dedicated mains, which I understand doesn't return ground to grid, with a balanced transformer.
Possible stupid question alert, were your electricity bills noticably higher after adding them to your systems?
Not really noticeably with the Premier as I keep my system on to keep it warmed up anyway.
Initially I assumed there was an inverter in the system, but it seems I'm mistaken.
That's more like how a computer UPS works - it inverts a mains waveform (frequently a squarewave) from a bank of batteries. Brilliant in my server room at work, not so good for hi-fi. I note that APC (the biggest UPS company) now makes a unit for use in hi-fi systems in the USA but I know nothing about how it works.
Think about a regenerator as a creator of mains power, using incoming power as the energy input. Unlike a balanced transformer, input and output are not 'connected'.
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 21:11
I note that APC (the biggest UPS company) now makes a unit for use in hi-fi systems in the USA but I know nothing about how it works.
If it's what I have been looking at recently, or should I say looked at until I saw the specs, it has up to 3% output distortion :rolleyes: Hardly better than plugging straight into the mains at the end of the day...
Yet they call it a pure sine wave :eyebrows:
realysm42
13-02-2012, 21:14
So why would you ever want a filter and conditioner when these exist?
Because regenerators are more expensive? But seriously, they are worth the extra expense!
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 21:23
Because regenerators are more expensive? But seriously, they are worth the extra expense!
:exactly: Amen brother :)
realysm42
13-02-2012, 21:28
How about the one that you linked Mark, that's going for £444 or so on ebay?!
***EDIT*** I guess it's because it only does 100 watts
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 21:38
How about the one that you linked Mark, that's going for £444 or so on ebay?!
I don't know anything about it :rolleyes: Well other than the specs that are posted online.
100W continuous should be ok for a front end, my P600 says I use about 100W when powering my CD transport, pre amp, & both bits of dCS kit as well as a few other bits & pieces.
If the distortion spec is accurate then it should be rather good, but once again, only on low powered gear.
Don't forget to factor in VAT & import duties... If caught out I reckon you might be looking at £600 or more, which makes the P500 on ebay look like a bargain ;)
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 22:30
Oh, without reducing the supply impedance? If so you are the only person on the planet that knows how to do this :eyebrows:
In the case of AC you have already mentioned one possible way, which is to seriously increase the power rating. In the case of DC, there have been a couple of circuits around. Walter Jung ( I think that's the correct spelling) patented a circuit that injects a 180 degrees compensation signal over the noise. His circuit doesn't filter the power supply as such, so it has little effect on the power supply impedance.
My own simplistic attempt to filter out the noise in the DC path was used in the TC-7510. It isn't perfect, but it is good enough to allow the DAC to have an analogue output that doesn't use a mute circuit. The component that is used to stop the power supply impedance from looking large is a big capacitor.
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 22:50
Walter Jung ( I think that's the correct spelling) patented a circuit that injects a 180 degrees compensation signal over the noise.
Sorry Stan, but once again this would need a circuit that is at least as fast as the transient & on top of that just about zero distortion & impedance to have a hope of eliminating any noise...
There are ways of doing certain things that can reduce distortion in amplifiers which obviously supply an AC signal. Feedforward, which uses a differential signal from the output of a high power class B amp & it's input then feeding a low power pure class A amp to inject a correction voltage via a ferrite transformer into the output signal of a class B amp is one. However I don't know of any way of correcting a DC supply.
I'd be more than happy to look at any links though that may help me design better amps etc for my own use :)
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 23:09
Sorry Stan, but once again this would need a circuit that is at least as fast as the transient & on top of that just about zero distortion & impedance to have a hope of eliminating any noise...
It does a very good job, which is why he patented it ;).
Reid Malenfant
13-02-2012, 23:15
It does a very good job, which is why he patented it ;).
Links to the patent? These things are generally available & while they cannot be exploited for personal gain as in a commercial enterprise, they can be copied for personal use only ;)
StanleyB
13-02-2012, 23:23
You'll have to browse for the link on his website (http://waltjung.org/index.html). He appears to have updated the site so the origial link I have doesn't lead to the patent info page.
sq225917
14-02-2012, 00:04
Because regenerators are more expensive? But seriously, they are worth the extra expense!
If your gear has power supplies that filter noise badly and/or relies on circuits with poor PSSR then they could be a good idea. Most people genuinely don't need them though. There is still a lot of gear out there though that will benefit and the mains does vary from location to location. if you live near commercialised areas you are basically screwed.
realysm42
14-02-2012, 00:10
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a lot of contradictions right thurr.
If your gear has power supplies that filter noise badly and/or relies on circuits with poor PSSR then they could be a good idea. Most people genuinely don't need them though.
You seem to be under the impression that a regenerator is to correct issues with equipment's poor power supplies? No power supply has 100% noise rejection ratio but that doesn't mean they are poorly implemented. See my article on triple-stage power supplies for the Technics. Paul Hynes can certainly design power supplies, so why would triple stage regulation sound even better?
When did you last listen to a system with a regenerator and compare with and without? Some hard experience may be what you need before suggesting that they are only for poorly designed equipment.
jandl100
14-02-2012, 10:35
:hmm:
Lots of enthusiasm here!
I'd really love to try a PPP Premiere or similar in my current system. (Pun intended :D)
Mind you, only the first generation of PSA kit were truly 'regenerators' weren't they - after that it seems that correction was the name of the game. :whippin: :eyebrows:
... a bit like Quad's use of current dumping? Or is that a totally incorrect analogy?
It's not a bad analogy, Jerry. Perhaps 'reconstruction' is the most accurate indicator of what they do. The conscious decision to sacrifice variable frequency (in a true regenerator) for much higher efficiency and power capability was, I think, a good one. I've owned both P300 (regenerator) and PPP (reconstructor) and I can say without hesitation that the latter sounds better.
I would really like to try one of these things. There don't seem to be many about in England.
realysm42
14-02-2012, 12:25
To the people that own one of these:
Do you use htem in conjunciton with filters and or conditioners as well, or as a stand alone solution?
Does it render the high quality power lead useless or imrpove it's already upgraded performance?
Ammonite Audio
14-02-2012, 12:48
To the people that own one of these:
Do you use htem in conjunciton with filters and or conditioners as well, or as a stand alone solution?
Does it render the high quality power lead useless or imrpove it's already upgraded performance?
I have the PS Audio P5, and previously owned the PPP, so I feel qualified to offer some opinions here.
I do not use any (serial) filters or conditioners with the P5; indeed I believe that to do so would be counter-productive, since the supply impedance would be increased. I've never heard a conventional mains filter (irrespective of price) that worked 'musically'. They do work in a superficial manner, but seem to trash musical expression and dynamics. The Vertex parallel Jaya filters are the closest that I've found to being musically unobtrusive.
Although it may seem daft, power leads do make a difference and PS Audio do recommend (their own) premium leads. I use Vertex leads. It's not so much a question of improving the regenerator's performance, rather just keeping the incoming mains 'window' as clean as possible. The other thing that makes a difference (with both the PPP and P5) is a decent support system - I use Stillpoints OEM feet beneath the P5. Without the Stillpoints, the system sounds plain 'wrong' - that's very difficult to express in words, but it's like the difference between a really good cup of tea and one made hurriedly in a plastic cup.
My observations mirror those of Hugo: no filters used with my PPP and cables and support are important. I feed mine with a Russ Andrews Signature Powerkord and it sits in my sprung floating system rack.
Correction to the Power Plant P10 specifications: the UK version can supply 1.5kVA of continuous power with momentary 1.75kVA capability. Practically speaking, unless you're going to use Krell class A power amplifiers, it should be able to drive any normal complete hi-fi system without any dynamic constraints.
I'm looking forward to taking delivery of mine, hopefully next week.
The other thing that makes a difference (with both the PPP and P5) is a decent support system - I use Stillpoints OEM feet beneath the P5.
Hugo, do you use the Stillpoints point-up or down? Where under the P5 chassis do you use them? Presumably you use three - can they take the weight? I'm thinking of doing the same for the P10.
Ammonite Audio
19-02-2012, 12:38
Hugo, do you use the Stillpoints point-up or down? Where under the P5 chassis do you use them? Presumably you use three - can they take the weight? I'm thinking of doing the same for the P10.
Hi Martin
These are Stillpoints OEM feet, which only go one way:
http://www.stillpoints.us/Stillpoints/OEM_files/OEM%20Black%20%281%29.jpg
I use four - mainly because much of the mass of the P5 is at one side, with the fans on the other, so 3 would actually be quite tricky. The OEM Stillpoints have easy height adjustment, so any rocking is easy to eliminate. Regarding the weight - yes they can take it - my entire Stillpoints ESS rack and all the gear sits on the upward pointing ceramic balls of normal Stillpoints, in Threaded Risers.
Thanks, Hugo. Where did you get them from?
Martin, I'll be very interested to hear your impression of the P10, and whether it can handle a big amp. I am now considering one, did you find a demo unit anywhere?
Hi Paul
No - very unusually for me, I have ordered based purely on my experience with a P300 and PPP and the knowledge that each one gave me a considerable lift in sound quality. It was practically impossible to borrow a P10, although a P5 would have been possible.
I'll write a full report once I have bedded it fully into the system.
I used to own a P500 it worked quite well but got quite hot. The P500 was released after the P300 P600 and P1200 Ultimate sonics in golders green used to be the distributor
I now gone to balanced mains and dedicated spur and earth, all of this makes a noticeable difference in my system I think either approach will fo a very good issue if you have mains issues. Ideally it best to hear in your system before you purchase
This beast was delivered tonight. Powering my entire system, its loading is only 13%.
The P10 is out on the floor until I've got to grips with all the power zones and delay settings. Kevin from Signature said it needs a good few days of 24 hour power to fully run-in, although I must say it's sounding mighty good from the off. There's an enormous sense of ease and infinite headroom to the music :)
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10.jpg
That's a bit of a beast Martin :stalks:
Ali Tait
23-02-2012, 21:43
That's a beast Martin!
Ali Tait
23-02-2012, 21:44
Haha snap!
Some very quick impressions: the P10 operates smoothly and efficiently with lower mechanical noise than the PPP (although that was never intrusive). My entire system loads it to 13%, so it has plenty of reserve. I gave the system a good serious run last night and it barely generated any heat at all. The network/internet control panel is fun, meaning that I named all my outputs and set different delays on switch-on and switch-off. I can also now fire up my system remotely (e.g. from my phone as I'm driving home to warm it up) and request daily e-mailed mains quality reports :eek:
More importantly: this thing has iron control over the system. Clearly PS Audio's claim of 100 times lower output impedance than the PPP is deserved. The tightening of focus in all kinds of music is amazing and the kick in drums and soaring of a human voice seems near limitless. The noise floor seems lower, too.
More after a few days of constant running.
Ammonite Audio
24-02-2012, 07:44
The P10 does make my P5 look rather dainty!
The issue I have in my system rack, Hugo, is that I only have 1cm clearance at the top. I don't see how I'm going to be able to use any kind of footer, although of course the rack does already have a level of isolation. The way it sounded on the floor last night, it may be a non-issue although I remember what you said about your P5 on Stillpoints.
Just for fun, look at the internet control panel (one of the screens):
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_Control.jpg
Great stuff Martin, tell me, can you turn the display off?
Yes you can and I often run all my gear with displays turned off.
Ammonite Audio
24-02-2012, 12:41
The issue I have in my system rack, Hugo, is that I only have 1cm clearance at the top. I don't see how I'm going to be able to use any kind of footer, although of course the rack does already have a level of isolation. The way it sounded on the floor last night, it may be a non-issue although I remember what you said about your P5 on Stillpoints.
Do you want to try one of my Stillpoints Component Stands? I'm going away for several months, so I will not be using them. Mine are the 4-legged version, in black, like these:
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/y2009/07/25731/component_stands.jpg
Thanks for the offer, Hugo. I'll try putting it into its resting place first and see how it sounds as I don't really want to keep it on the floor. I am going to completely dismantle the rack, tighten it up and place it a little further out into the room so that I don't suffer the current cable catastrophe behind it.
jandl100
25-02-2012, 08:00
Fantastic stuff, Martin. That beast looks totally insane! :stalks: I've been grinning hugely while catching up on the last few days of the thread.
.... I can also now fire up my system remotely (e.g. from my phone as I'm driving home to warm it up) ....
:lol: The future is already here!
Yep, maybe this is the way for me to go now that I seem to have settled (lawd help me) on some 'keeper components'.
Google is my friend ... bloody hell, I've just seen the price! :wowzer:
Hey, that beast had better be good!
I'm curious as to how much it weighs .... just 40lb .... is that right? :scratch:
Hi Jerry
The P10 weighs 33kg - and feels it!
Call Kevin at Signature Audio Systems for a good price ;)
You would not be disappointed, wait until you power your entire system from a P10 and hear the transformation in sound. As a matter of interest, what is the idling power of your Parasound? I've a feeling it's a lot higher than my Chord (about 46W).
jandl100
25-02-2012, 13:52
33Kg - that seems more likely. I could only find one reference to the weight, on a US sales site, and that said 40lb. Which seemed unlikely.
Idling power of my Parasound? Don't know - I didn't get a spec sheet (or any paperwork) with the wee beastie. It operates in class A for the first 7.5wpc, I understand and it does get gently warm, so probably idles at more than your Chord amp.
Would I like your P10? Mmmmm ... yes, of course I would!
I'm not prepared to spend that sort of dosh, though, I don't think. I'll keep an eye out for a used PPP Premiere, I reckon.
Yes, I know the P10 is better .... but there is always something better! (Boxswapper's credo, that!)
Anyway - nice one, Martin, enjoy your new man-toy. :D
The PPP should still do a fantastic job for you, Jerry. There'll be a few coming on to the market as people upgrade to P5s and P10s. Kevin is still worth calling as he takes them in as part-exchange.
Unfortunately I've sold mine. It's going up to Scalford and then to its new owner.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_Control.jpg
I looked very long and hard at that there control panel diagram above and I could not find the "MAKE TEA" button anywhere :ner:
jandl100
25-02-2012, 14:22
:D
Good to see you on here again, Frank. :)
Jerry - it seems that the JC-1s idle at 250W high bias and 125W standard bias. I assume your A21 will idle at somewhat less so there should be no issues running it from a PPP, which can handle 1kW.
I looked very long and hard at that there control panel diagram above and I could not find the "MAKE TEA" button anywhere :ner:
You didn't look hard enough! It makes regenerated tea :eek:
Martin, do you know what the height of the p10 is, can't seem to find this anywhere? I snagged a P5 from Trevor at Guildford Audio's event at reading for testing, installed it last night, seems to do a good job, I had 245v input, and am running it to the 230v components only at the moment. Is there two HC outlets on your 10? Cheers, Paul
Hi Paul
I'll have to measure the height tonight. Yes, I have two HC outlets - using them for the preamp and power amp, although only the power amp needs the anti-surge feature. I've also delayed its switch-on by 3s.
I'm getting anything between 248 and 252V (very high voltage AC here) but with extremely flattened waveform peaks. The P10 creates a beautiful sinewave, set to 242V (the same as my previous PPP generated). I'll see if I can take some photos of the scope screens.
Thanks Martin but i did find it, 8.5 inches in old terms. It will fit, damn it.. P5 working well, but will try different supports underneath also.
Belatedly - 22cm to give full clearance from the feet to the top deck.
Some more observations now that the P10 has had time to burn-in (the dealer confirmed that the P5/P10 requires a good week of being powered up from new to fully burn-in). My house voltage is high at 250-252VAC but the waveform is pretty distorted with flat topped peaks, showing 2 - 2.5% THD. The P10 converts this to 242V outgoing at 0.4% THD. I'll take photos of the display when I can, but here is yesterday's distortion graph:
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_distortion.jpg
With my system fully powered up the idle load is very light at 110W, so the P10 with its 1.25kW capability is not at all stressed. Even my previous PPP can easily power a Tube Distinctions Copper amp without sweat, so the P10 is going to be able to fully power the vast majority of systems out there short of a big class A Krell.
There is a choice of optimising performance for high regulation or low distortion. Since the output distortion is already low I have opted for high regulation as this will give me the stiffest power supply rails with the least sag under load throughout the system. I also select Multiwave as I marginally prefer the sound over sinewave output.
So what does the P10 bring to the party? I was able to have a really good listen last night and, over and above what the already excellent PPP achieves, I heard the following differences:
The upper bass kick is the hardest hitting I have yet achieved. Well recorded drums have an impact and slam that makes them sound much closer to the real thing. Outstanding recordings like the Sheffield Lab direct cuts begin to approach having a real drum kit in the room.
Second is focus. This is best heard with female voice but begins to make its presence felt in all kinds of material. Everything is more sharply defined, less woolly. The rasp of brass instruments is very pleasing and small percussive effects are easily revealed. Some voices which I categorise as 'honeyed' or 'rich', such as Norah Jones, are revealed as complex things and come out from the speakers in a startling manner. I can understand why some people find her boring, but not from my system she isn't.
Third is soundstage. Everything is slightly more out-of-the-box than before, with the speakers frequently disappearing altogether on good spacious recordings.
All the above notes are from an evening of listening to vinyl. Tonight I shall try some CDs to see how the Ayre player responds to the newer, cleaner, mains.
jandl100
07-03-2012, 11:56
Well, this is "the PS Audio Regenerator Thread", so do you mind if I share this with some comments about my newly arrived The Power Plant Premier, Martin?
Plugged my Krell KRC-3 pre in ... hmm, yes, quite a nice improvement.
Then plugged my Parasound A21 power amp in ... :stalks::stalks::stalks::stalks:
Bloody hell.
And the P10 is better than this? Wow.
I am still plucking up the courage to plug my CDP in to it ... I'm afraid an usher will come round and ask me if I'd bought a ticket on the way in to the concert hall. :lol:
Just fabulous. :thumbsup:
Fab, Jerry. I don't want to say I told you so...
Plug your CD player into it :)
jandl100
07-03-2012, 15:16
Yep, CDP now plugged in.
The same sort of fairly small improvement as with the Krell pre.
By far the biggest improvement is with the leetle 250wpc power amp.
Curious.
Tbh, for the incremental improvements to my pre and CDP I'd be a bit disappointed - but the Parasound power amp (wonderful though I thought it before, as you know) has been taken into another league.
Do you know, it's the same with my Chord power amp. I swear it benefits the most from a regenerator (I know this because my first regenerator was a P300 with only source/preamp connected).
So much for switched mode power supplies being impervious to mains.
jandl100
07-03-2012, 17:39
Yes, strange that - it's the opposite way round to what I was expecting. I thought the source components would benefit most, with the massive PSUs in our BSMs* being pretty much impervious!
I marginally prefer the Mutliwave output, and for some reason the differences in sound quality between phase/reverse as switched on my Krell pre have been accentuated quite markedly. :scratch:
*BSM = Big Sandy Monster :D
I marginally prefer the Mutliwave output
Yes, I leave Multiwave switched on, too.
Just posted by Paul McGowan on the PS Audio forum:
http://www.psaudio.com/vanilla/discussion/comment/29041#Comment_29041
jandl100
08-03-2012, 07:43
Improvements from using the PP Premier with my Parasound A21 power amp ...
1. substantially improved transparency
2. improved resolution of fine detail
3. blacker blacks, the silences are more silent. I thought I had a silent backdrop to recordings before, but I guess low level background grunge is only noticeable when you reduce it further!
4. all of which result in far better 3D holographic imaging and a vastly improved "you are there" experience.
I've previously owned a P300 .... it didn't come close to this level of performance in terms of overall system improvement, but then you couldn't run a big power amp from it, and that's where I hear the main benefits of the Premier.
Nice one, Jerry, and very much tallies with my findings. Another happy user :)
isuckedmandelsonslemons
10-03-2012, 06:33
I wish you lot would pack it in. The more I read the more I want my own mains regenerator.
twelvebears
10-03-2012, 08:02
Well, this is "the PS Audio Regenerator Thread", so do you mind if I share this with some comments about my newly arrived The Power Plant Premier, Martin?
Plugged my Krell KRC-3 pre in ... hmm, yes, quite a nice improvement.
Then plugged my Parasound A21 power amp in ... :stalks::stalks::stalks::stalks:
Bloody hell.
And the P10 is better than this? Wow.
I am still plucking up the courage to plug my CDP in to it ... I'm afraid an usher will come round and ask me if I'd bought a ticket on the way in to the concert hall. :lol:
Just fabulous. :thumbsup:
Glad you're digging the PPP Jerry, I've been delighted with mine and certainly wouldn't go back to having the system without it. :)
This panel shows the status of each zone - there are five zones corresponding to nine sockets. Zones D & E are high current with in-rush protection. Any zone can be independently turned off. Power on/off can be sequenced any way you like. Globe at top left indicates network connection and card next to that is the SD card plugged in (for firmware upgrades).
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_sockets.jpg
Status panel.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_stats.jpg
Showing voltage in. My area has very high voltage - frequently 252V - but flat topped sinewave distortion approaching a sawtooth waveform.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_voltagein.jpg
Voltage out - almost perfect sinewave under load.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_voltageout.jpg
Voltage difference - what the P10's amplifier has to add/subtract from the waveform to generate clean mains.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P10_voltagediff.jpg
I have joined the regenerator sect courtesy of Martin T who kindly sold me his P300. And I have been converted – hallelujah !!
My original premise was to find a power supply for my 401 having looked at a Martin Bastin unit ( which works on the same principle I believe but I had a few doubts about running the 401 at the designated 160v ). Needless to say the P300 delivers in all the ways Jerry and Martin have outlined above in terms of resolution soundstage and bass. For me it simply adds more to the music which now seems to ebb and flow in a very coherent manner. The dynamics are infectious with ‘quiets’ just quiet and ‘louds’ simply very loud. That’s not to say my Decca shod 401 was not dynamic anyway. The P300 simply enhanced them to incredibly realistic highs. Likewise timing is now rock solid and the music has an added tightness that was not there before. The P300 has also improved my phonostage to a lesser but still very worthwhile degree.
So clean power is definitely a winner for me. The downside is I must have a PPP so I can add my power amp to the mix. It really is that good. Considering a single unit can upgrade all your hardware to this degree at one go has to be worth very serious consideration by any hifi enthusiast.
Mervyn
Good to know the P300 found a happy home, Mervyn :)
Thanks Martin. One of my best hi-fi buys in some time.
Clean power is a bit like running your system on 5 star petrol ( as was !).
Came across this on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-AC-ReGenerator-Perfect-Power-HiFi-Silent-UPS-System-/250987763420?pt=UK_Consumer_Professional_RL&hash=item3a700956dc
which if it does what it claims seems good value for money although I cannot quite work out what the internal battery is for.
Reid Malenfant
15-03-2012, 18:19
It's not really a regenerator, it's a UPS or uninteruptible power supply. These are often used on PCs so if the mains goes down the PC is still powered via a mains waveform that is generated from the battery supply. Or until the battery goes flat :eyebrows:
They generally aren't that clean, though there shouldn't be a lot in the way of noise spikes etc that you get on mains from the wall. A so called pure sine wave UPS will generally have about 3% distortion on the output, which is about the same as standard mains :rolleyes:
Agreed, Mark. I'm afraid this is the giveaway:
Sine Wave <3%THD linear load <2% typ
So it's not really designed for hi-fi.
Martin,
The P5 was great bar the fans, so we opted to use the P10 as you have, it really is a fundamental piece. For those that did not know, i ran two balanced mains transformers before the P10, but this takes the system to a new level altogether.
Rgds,
Paul
Ammonite Audio
30-03-2012, 15:54
My P5 only activates its fans for a few minutes after turning on from cold, then it's pretty much silent.
Martin,
The P5 was great bar the fans, so we opted to use the P10 as you have, it really is a fundamental piece. For those that did not know, i ran two balanced mains transformers before the P10, but this takes the system to a new level altogether.
Rgds,
Paul
Glad the P10 is doing it for you. Tip for making it sound better: replace the 20mm fuse on the rear panel for an IsoTek or Hi-Fi Tuning fuse.
Reid Malenfant
30-03-2012, 16:09
What are you doing on here Martin :scratch: Get back to your bagels & hotdogs :ner:
:eyebrows:
You mean massive steaks and hot chilli sauce? ;)
I'll be back soon and will comment more on how my P10 has settled in to the heart of my system. Meanwhile, for those who have found the price of entry too steep and don't want to buy used, PS Audio have announced the new P3:
http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p3/
realysm42
13-04-2012, 07:23
Thanks for the information, I think I'll be having a word with these guys now.
Has anyone tried their power cables? They look substantial if nothing else lol.
realysm42
13-04-2012, 08:08
Ps. Maritn I had a look and couldn't really determine the difference between themodels, apart from size and cost. I assume the biggest one can deliver more juice but the performance of what they actually give remains the same?
The big difference between the P5 and P10 is double the 'magnetics' (their term) in the P10 and passive cooling. The power reserves and therefore current ability of the P10 are greater. The P5 is fan cooled.
I haven't seen a P3 but as I understand it there is no touch display and the anti-surge output for a power amp is not regenerated, so it's a lower power device where only the source components and preamp get the regenerated supply and the power amp gets a filtered supply.
realysm42
13-04-2012, 11:41
Thanks Martin. So what if I'm using an integrated amp? Sorry about all the questions but this is all news to me!
You'll have to add up the power consumption of all your devices and see which of the Power Plants is most suitable. Can you do that from your component specs and then we might be able to advise you?
realysm42
13-04-2012, 17:40
The amp is 85wpc @80hms , if that's what you're asking me?
I'm not sure what the dac is; I'll have a look into it properly in a bit. The only other thing in my stereo is my pc and that's getting a substantial "downgrade" (from gaming pc to audio pc) in terms of power consumption.
Reid Malenfant
13-04-2012, 17:41
So assume the amp will use about 400W when driven pretty hard ;)
realysm42
13-04-2012, 17:50
Is that based on my typo Mark?
As I mean 8 ohms :lolsign:
Reid Malenfant
13-04-2012, 17:54
You need to remember that a standard class B or AB amplifier is about 60% efficient, on top of that your speakers are likely to dip below 8 ohms, maybe down to 4 ohms. You aren't likely to listen at full amplifier power, so 400W is a conservative estimate :)
I read what you typed correctly :eyebrows:
In that case, the P3 should do it. It can handle 750W of regenerative power which will cope with your 400W max of integrated amp power plus your peripherals which I doubt would amount to another 100W. Don't forget this is burst power, no way will your amp suck 400W continuous unless you like your ears to bleed.
realysm42
13-04-2012, 19:23
Yeah it'd only be the amp and dac I'd chuck in there.
Living in a flat ensures I can't cane the tunes too often anyhow.
Martin, you tried their power cables?
Nope, never. Not even seen a UK cable of theirs.
The P3 could be on my shopping but couple of questions you might be able to help with are
a) Can the zones be individually 'tuned' ? I ask the question as I would like to run my 401 from it but the motor needs a straight 50hz ( for 33 1/3) and cannot use multiwave ( which would be nice to have available on the remaining zones ).
b) my NVA power amp although rated at 100wPC uses 4 x 500va transformers which can cause a big surge on startup ( enought to trip the mains !) Could the P3 cope with this ?
Thanks
Mervyn
Not an expert on the P3 but:
a) You can only turn Multiwave on or off for all zones (certainly on my P10). However, you could simply turn it on when not playing records?
b) The filtered anti-surge input will certainly cope. Whether you could use it in a regenerated zone is moot; short of trying it, I don't think you'll know for sure.
Sounds like you may need to loan one to try it out. Meanwhile, how's the P300?
Thanks Martin. The P300 is performing very well and I think I will find it hard now to live without regenerated power in hi-fi terms at least !
You could always keep the P300 on sinewave for turntable duties and use a P3 on Multiwave for the rest of your system.
Good point Martin. Downside is that it adds another box to the system ( P300 is an awkward shape as you know ) but the 401 would not be the same without it.
Great video :) made my WAF to happen and the P5 is sitting in my rack now ;)
Nice one, Tomas. How do you find the change in sound quality?
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 21:29
I have had a bit of thought about the PPP & I guess the newer regenerators, though I'm guessing about the latest versions :)
While setting them for your average voltage feed I have a feeling you might find the lowest distortion on the output when it's not cutting or boosting.
The problem is is that it'll be dissipating the most at that point. I'm assuming that to get the least distortion the output needs to be virtually the same voltage as the input. Reason being is because it'll have the most voltage for correction available.
I don't know what the voltages on the amp that does the output is, but I doubt they are above +/-12 - 18V DC. That could give a whole lot of distortion reduction though :D
It wasn't quite that for me: with 250V input, I found lowest output distortion when set for 242V. However, I agree that it's probably giving lowest distortion when the floating amp has the widest voltage swing available.
Martin I would say there is less "grain" in the sound (I could not recognize the grain before I had chance to compare with and without the P5. Also I have feeling the bass is better defined, colorfull and punchy with the P5.
In my flat I have about 3.4 to 5.5 THD and 0.2THD on P5 output. The sine wave is squashed in it's top and bottom peaks what is fixed by the P5.
Input voltage is usually between 223 and 231V while I have output set to 230V low distortion.
I do not have the pictures at hand just now so I had to describe it :)
While all my audio equipment plugged in the P5 is only 15-25% loaded.
Thanks, Tomas. Have you tried setting it for high regulation rather than low distortion? That tightens the bass up even more for me.
unclepuncle
02-05-2012, 14:36
I've been wanting to try one of these PS Audio regenerators for ages and have just bought a mint P300 with Multiwave. :)
My system can sound really amazing some days, very good most days but sometimes it can be really bright and in your face, and I'm sure these variations (or some of it anyway) must be down to electricty issues.
It could be especially useful with my Wadia 581iSE - this was bought on ebay Germany a few years ago but from the labels on the box it was originally supplied by Wadia's Polish distributor - unlike the rest of Europe Poland was on 220v and thats what the mains input is labelled as, so I'll be interested to see if feeding it 220v rather than the 243v that my mains measured last year, makes it any better.
Hopefully might have for the weekend so will let you know how I get on.
Congratulations, Paul. The Wadia should respond well to the P300's nice clean output. I wouldn't get too caught up in European voltage differences, the nominal voltage is 230V (which no-one uses) and that's to allow all countries to use anything between 220 and 240V nominal within a wide tolerance.
However, you'll be able to experiment so let us know your findings.
unclepuncle
09-05-2012, 17:19
Well my P300 with Multiwave has arrived.:)
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/5342/psaudio003.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/864/psaudio003.jpg/)
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9185/psaudio004.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/psaudio004.jpg/)
Lovely looking and nicely built bit of kit - bigger than I expected as well.
I mainly bought it to use with my rather flakey Wadia 581iSE and the problem with that is that it meant I had to switch off and unplug the Wadia in order to plug it into the P300:doh:.
Switched on perfectly but as I feared I had problems getting the damn CD draw to open - the Wadia has some sort of logic problem, linked to the display I think, and this drawer issue is a regular problem. Once it starts working it's fine for months as long as you treat it carefully.
After about 4 switches on and off and bit of messing around with the remote I finally got the drawer to open and popped in a disc. Set the P300 to output 222v and used the standard default multiwave setting.
First impressions are very good - definitely sounds clearer with more impact and better transients.
I quickly flicked through the 10:scratch: different multiwave settings and couldn't hear a massive difference between them - a slight softening on some and a slightly brighter presentation on others, but nothing night and day.
I need to get a platform or slab of something to sit it on as it's currently sitting on the carpeted floor (on some ceramic isolation cones) and it does run hot and the fans are audible when nothing is playing.
The display is meant to show how much power it is outputting but with just the Wadia plugged in it says 0 - the manual does say if it's less than 50 watts then it won't register on the display. I want to plug my phonostage in, but don't want to switch the P300 off first as then I might have the nightmare with the Wadia again - is it ok to plug things in when it's switched on?
Reid Malenfant
09-05-2012, 17:25
I want to plug my phonostage in, but don't want to switch the P300 off first as then I might have the nightmare with the Wadia again - is it ok to plug things in when it's switched on?
In all honesty plugging something in while it's actually running is going to stress the P300 in just the same way as if it was off & then switched on to both loads.
So I don't see too much of a problem as a phono stage isn't the most current hungry thing out there :D
Just don't electrocute yourself if they are the American type plugs :)
You should be ok plugging in a phono stage.
unclepuncle
09-05-2012, 20:49
Haven't plugged anything else in yet but have been playing with the multiwave settings.
The differences between all of them are extremely subtle but they are there - especially affects soundstaging and imaging with minor changes to treble and bass also apparent on certain settings.
I'm gradually narrowing it down and will try to stick to one setting in future - if only it had remote so you could flick between them from the listening chair.:rolleyes:
Despite only having my Wadia plugged into it it runs very hot and the fans are on constantly - dosen't effect listening but I'm a bit concerned about leaving it on all the time.:mental:
I would switch it off between sessions, or at least before I go to bed, but given my Wadia throws a hissy fit whenever it's switched off it's a bit of a dilemma. Will leaving it on permanently lead to premature burnout - mind you it's already 10+ years old so I guess it was built to last.
Reid Malenfant
09-05-2012, 20:55
You are less likely to kill the P300 leaving it on permanently :) That may sound odd as it runs hot as you mention, but it's the heating up & cooling down of the semiconductors in the amplifier stages that kill the transistors themselves :rolleyes:
If they don't thermally cycle then they will last for longer. It's due to the silicon transistor having a different thermal expansion coefficient to the copper substrate it's actually bonded to.
Over time & lots of heating & cooling they start to break away...
Keeping it at a near constant temperature should prolong the life of the P300.
Ok I wish I hadn't read this thread - all was well beforehand (or so I thought)!
So who has got a P5 or P!0 they want to move on to a good home?
You'll have better luck finding a PPP, since the P5 and P10s are very new. I'm NOT selling mine :)
Don't be shy chaps!
Happy to take one off your hands at a knock-down price! ..or should I be considering another regenerator?
Anybody had any experience with one of these (or is this the subject of another AoS thread?)?
http://www.powerinspired.com/ag-series-ac-power-regenerator/
Power Inspired have already been discussed. Not very good distortion figures and doubts that they would make any improvement over the incoming mains.
Reid Malenfant
17-05-2012, 20:05
I'll be pulling my P600 to bits pretty soon to find the fault that killed it. I'll be re-capping the whole thing & subtly modifying it so I'll get a thread going in the Drawing Board for reference if anyone is interested.
Good luck with it, Mark.
I'm still trying to fault find a Croft 4S with one channel down.
Reid Malenfant
17-05-2012, 21:04
Oh I'll sort it, have no doubts about that :) I just want to know if one or more of the output transistors have gone collector emitter short as I suspect.
That'll just add to the delay in getting it fixed as I'll need to replace the whole lot & the cheapest I have seen them is USA :doh:
Good luck with the Croft :)
Link to the repair thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=327203#post327203)
Nice Review in StereoTimes of the more affordable PerfectWave P3.
http://www.stereotimes.com/
daytona600
30-07-2012, 07:52
$2500 bit expensive , not heard one powerinspired AG150o is £450 1.5kw rated 1500watts
and worked well in my system they do a smaller 500watt version
if you have $2500 why not fit a pv system to your roof
about £6k fully installed 4kw 4000watts will power the hifi and a 3/4 bedroom house as well
or smaller system for lower cost
pv inverter basically a regen unit providing stable power to improve sound
you also get paid for the surplus energy you dont use under FITs feed in tarriff for 25years
and you will never get a electricity bill again
MikeMusic
30-07-2012, 07:59
$2500 bit expensive , not heard one powerinspired AG150o is £450 1.5kw rated 1500watts
and worked well in my system they do a smaller 500watt version
if you have $2500 why not fit a pv system to your roof
about £6k fully installed 4kw 4000watts will power the hifi and a 3/4 bedroom house as well
or smaller system for lower cost
pv inverter basically a regen unit providing stable power to improve sound
you also get paid for the surplus energy you dont use under FITs feed in tarriff for 25years
and you will never get a electricity bill again
Not heard the advantage to a hifi from solar panels before ........
Anyone done it
realysm42
30-07-2012, 08:28
What about night time use and when the Suns not out though?
You reserve that time for darker music.
Ali Tait
30-07-2012, 16:09
Not sure how clean the waveform would be from an inverter? They generally introduce nasties.
daytona600
30-07-2012, 16:31
solar panels produce DC these feed into the pv inverter which produces pure-sine wave AC output to feed into the national grid generally cleaner than the stuff coming into your house
from the grid with lower THD distortion , no dc , lower harmonics basically like a hifi regen PSU guys i know noticed a difference when hifi powered from the inverter not the grid
solar as you say does not work at night but you can get a hybrid system with batteries which does even works in power cuts
www.suntrol-portal.com live web system
www.solarfeedintarriff.co.uk you get paid tax free & index linked for the energy you sell to the grid for 25years
you never get a electricity bill again in your life they pay you
the sun never sends you a bill
look after the enviroment its where you live
and it stops the government building oil/gas/coal power stations or fucking nuclear ( japan anyone )
britain was a nett exporter until 1999 - now we are a nett importer of energy
what will electricity & gas cost in 25years & will you be able to get any
russians for gas & saudis for oil will be able to hold our country to ranson
wars will be fought to secure energy supplies
It could be rationed or assuming our ancient national grid is still working
Ali Tait
30-07-2012, 16:37
We have such a system fitted to our house. Can't say I noticed an improvement.
daytona600
30-07-2012, 16:51
whose inverter is fitted Ali best ones are sma germany , eltek norway both well under 3% THD mains legally can be 5% should output very clean 230v/50hz
people i know heard a difference including a dealer of hiend gear
and those payments you get every 3months can pay for a new hifi or music
Excellent thread. Regeneration is the only assurance of clean power. A mate has an ex BT one, v good.
I read the whole thread over the last 2 days and tried Googling but prices are rare. Can someone summarise costs of PS Audio and any otherworthy alternatives.
Pleased to see a brief reference to Conditioners and their hampering the power delivery squashing sound. If this is true for most users they seem to be a waste of time if ones power did not need conditioning in the first place
Thanks
Found the £3.5k+ for P5
MikeMusic
31-07-2012, 11:19
Excellent thread. Regeneration is the only assurance of clean power. A mate has an ex BT one, v good.
I read the whole thread over the last 2 days and tried Googling but prices are rare. Can someone summarise costs of PS Audio and any otherworthy alternatives.
Pleased to see a brief reference to Conditioners and their hampering the power delivery squashing sound. If this is true for most users they seem to be a waste of time if ones power did not need conditioning in the first place
Thanks
Found the £3.5k+ for P5
There are the older models like the P300 you can pick up occasionally on Ebay
I must get around to selling on Ebay as I upgraded mine
They vary around the £400
Very rough prices:
P3 £2000
P5 £3500
P10 £5000
Good used PPP: £800
There are the older models like the P300 you can pick up occasionally on Ebay
I must get around to selling on Ebay as I upgraded mine
They vary around the £400
Thanks. If buying older/sh what repair options exist? £400 I might hav
It's hard to say as the old distributor (for P300) may not be able to get the parts and the new distributor (was Signature Audio Systems, now Invision UK) will never have seen a P300. It's worth asking them though.
MikeMusic
01-08-2012, 07:17
Thanks. If buying older/sh what repair options exist? £400 I might hav
Hadn't thought about that when I bought mine
How likely are they to go wrong I wonder ?
This one's available if you are interested
Hadn't thought about that when I bought mine
How likely are they to go wrong I wonder ?
This one's available if you are interested
I read somewhere on this thread that transistors can part company with their mount block.
You have a PM
Very rough prices:
P3 £2000
P5 £3500
P10 £5000
Good used PPP: £800
Martin
Do you know any more dealers than Audio affair who want £4000 for the P5 and £5500 for the P10, ouch.
Yes - speak to Kevin at Signature Audio Systems.
I have his details if you need, would rather not post them on public forum.
Yes - speak to Kevin at Signature Audio Systems.
I have his details if you need, would rather not post them on public forum.
I was tempted by Audio Affair as they are local and I have home trialed stuff with them in the past. But a lower price, £500 is appealing to yes please Kevin's details please
Wakefield Turntables
17-08-2012, 17:20
This is just a quick question. I have read several reviews stating that its best practice not to plug your pre or power amps into either a mains regenerator or a mains cleaning system. Is this true? Secondly, would it this equally be the case if you have active speakers, like the ATC's that I own?? The only reason I ask is because I intend at some point this year to get the PS Audio regenerator for my system.
Hi Andrew
Let's get filters out of the way first: most of them should not have a power amp plugged into them as they stifle dynamics by virtue of not allowing the required instantaneous current through without putting up a high impedance. They cannot, ever, offer a lower impedance than incoming mains.
However, this is the regenerator thread, so the proper answer is: it depends on the design power envelope of the model in question. An old fashioned P-300, for instance, is not going to work as its 300W power output is inadequate - not least because if you try to run it close to 300W you will actually be able to cook eggs on it.
The modern fleet of higher efficiency regenerators mostly can run a power amp, and it's a very good idea to run one like this as, in my experience, power amps respond more favourably to regenerators than any other component in a hi-fi system. Certainly the P5 and P10 from PS Audio can, and possibly the P3 if the power demand is not too high.
Remember that a Power Plant will present a lower impedance to the power amp than the incoming mains and it can do this because it holds a massive reserve of power and is an active device. My Chord power amp sounds fab through the high current socket of the P10, the two together pairing up to give the kind of structural and potent sound that outperforms some very large Krells that I've heard. Active speakers would be no different.
When you get close to a purchase decision, make sure you loan one from a dealer to check performance in your own system. I doubt that you'll return it.
Wakefield Turntables
17-08-2012, 17:57
Martin,
How many high power sockets does the p10 have? I'd need 3, one for each speaker and then one for the pre amp.
A
It has 9 sockets in paired zones except for the high current zone 5, which is a single socket. However, the latter is a misnomer as it only has a slow-on action to prevent amplifier surge. In all other respects, all the zones behave in the same way. Your best bet would probably be to use zones 1-2 for source components (4 sockets), 3-4 for the speakers (another 4 sockets) and 5 for the preamp. That would work fine. You could always use a good quality expansion socket strip from one of the outlets if you had to.
The P10 can handle 1.5kW, for instance. You're not going to be burning that unless you're using twin Krells, and then you'd need refrigeration in the room.
Wakefield Turntables
17-08-2012, 18:13
Do you think there would be any merit in using a mains filtration system to present the p10 with as clean a power supply as possible before it starts to do its regeneration magic?
Reid Malenfant
17-08-2012, 18:16
No, think of it as a power amplifier that puts out mains voltage :) You don't want to have something increasing the supply impedance to the regenerator :nono:
Do you think there would be any merit in using a mains filtration system to present the p10 with as clean a power supply as possible before it starts to do its regeneration magic?
No, absolutely not. The regenerator needs a low impedance supply and generates an even lower impedance output. Don't muck things up with filters, regenerators don't need them.
Wakefield Turntables
17-08-2012, 18:37
So flog the mains filter system and buy a p10? :eyebrows:
So flog the mains filter system and buy a p10? :eyebrows:
That's the one! :thumbsup:
I see that IsoTek have finally joined the regenerator game, all their previous products having been filters. The EVO3 Genesis is a regenerator featuring four 300VA rear outlets and has received a mixed review in Hi-Fi News this month. Only a couple of downsides, then: they specifically state that you cannot run a power amp from it; and it costs £12,995. Yes, I made double-sure to type that correctly.
So I guess the PS Audio P10 looks a bit of a bargain in comparison, then ;)
Wakefield Turntables
18-08-2012, 17:03
Right, thats my isotek up for sale, check out the private exhibition section. I'm going to have a cull and see else I can sell to get a P10!
Great move, Andrew. It's one of the few things in hi-fi where I can positively guarantee that you won't be disappointed.
Wakefield Turntables
19-08-2012, 17:58
Sold it! Now need to see if I can get a decent deal for a P10! Making some phone calls tomorrow.
I see that IsoTek have finally joined the regenerator game, all their previous products having been filters. The EVO3 Genesis is a regenerator featuring four 300VA rear outlets and has received a mixed review in Hi-Fi News this month. Only a couple of downsides, then: they specifically state that you cannot run a power amp from it; and it costs £12,995. Yes, I made double-sure to type that correctly.
So I guess the PS Audio P10 looks a bit of a bargain in comparison, then ;)
Not really a bargain dude as it is markedly different from Isotek gear. If you are trying to compare a £13,000 mains regenerator to the P10 it's not a fair comparison, the P10 is £5.5k and is on a par with the Isotek Super Titan which sells for similar money to the P10. Until you have heard a super titan in action or indeed done a head to head with your P10 then it's not fair to compare and say the P10 is a bit of a bargain over the genesis.
After all it does not matter what is inside the box, all that matters is what it does to the sound of your system as nothing else matters, the P10 and indeed all other re-generators/filters/conditioners are used to make the system sound better, yes spike protection and all the other added benefits count but in the end it's sound quality we buy these things for.
I applaud you for championing what you feel is a great piece of kit BTW.
The Super Titan is a mains conditioner, not a regenerator, so it's not really comparable with the P10. I haven't heard it, but it's not striking me as packing anything like the technology for the money.
Not to worry, I love the P10 and will continue to champion it.
Reid Malenfant
19-08-2012, 19:03
The Super Titan is a mains conditioner, not a regenerator, so it's not really comparable with the P10. I haven't heard it, but it's not striking me as packing anything like the technology for the money.
Not to worry, I love the P10 and will continue to champion it.
Aye, regenerators rule OK! :yesbruv:
:eyebrows:
I'll second Martins recommendation of Kevin @ Signature, good honest service.
He is indeed. Suggest you speak to him, Andy.
Wakefield Turntables
19-08-2012, 22:08
He is indeed. Suggest you speak to him, Andy.
Number already written down for tomorrow. ;)
Ammonite Audio
20-08-2012, 02:28
The Super Titan is a mains conditioner, not a regenerator, so it's not really comparable with the P10. I haven't heard it, but it's not striking me as packing anything like the technology for the money.
Not to worry, I love the P10 and will continue to champion it.
Quite. I have only heard demos of the Isotek stuff at shows and their conditioners certainly have an effect, but to my ears it's a superficial one that rather destroys the music, irrespective of the cost of the Isotek gear in question. My P5 (as well as the PPP that preceded it) does not seem to get in the way of the music.
In value for money terms, I consider the P5/P10 to be acceptable. PS Audio took the brave decision to move production back to Boulder from China, after quality problems with the PPP nearly destroyed the company. The production costs rose, but the company is doing better business - go figure! People don't generally mind paying for genuine quality. There's an interesting local newspaper piece about this at http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-business/ci_17965774 .
Nice to hear from you, Hugo. Hope things are going well?
Thanks for the link, Paul McGowan is a nice chap and has been refreshingly honest compared with many in the industry.
Nice to hear from you, Hugo. Hope things are going well?
Thanks for the link, Paul McGowan is a nice chap and has been refreshingly honest compared with many in the industry.
Posting at 5.44 a.m Martin? Have you been up all night listening to you "new" system...:lol:
Ammonite Audio
20-08-2012, 07:32
Nice to hear from you, Hugo. Hope things are going well?
Thanks for the link, Paul McGowan is a nice chap and has been refreshingly honest compared with many in the industry.
Hi Martin
Everything's going well, and I'm pleased to report that I still have all my body parts attached and in working order! My return to the UK is a bit later than I had hoped for, but I should be home in the 3rd week of Oct. I have to sort a few things out (like the dogs) but the following week I hope to start catching up with everyone.
Regards etc
MikeMusic
20-08-2012, 07:43
Hi Martin
Everything's going well, and I'm pleased to report that I still have all my body parts attached and in working order! My return to the UK is a bit later than I had hoped for, but I should be home in the 3rd week of Oct. I have to sort a few things out (like the dogs) but the following week I hope to start catching up with everyone.
Regards etc
Hi Hugo
Is that Farnborough, Hampshire ?
If so we are fairly close
He's a bit further away at the moment, Mike :lol:
Dave - I think you've got the wrong time zone set, it was 6:44am. Still early, but not mad. I'm usually at work at 6am every day.
MikeMusic
20-08-2012, 10:20
He's a bit further away at the moment, Mike :lol:
So Kent then ?
:)
Ammonite Audio
20-08-2012, 11:29
So Kent then ?
:)
Normally, it is Farnborough Hants, which is rather nicer than my present far-flung location, which I liken to a dry dusty place where, in the beginning, God chose to empty the pulverised contents of his cat litter tray.
MikeMusic
20-08-2012, 11:35
Normally, it is Farnborough Hants, which is rather nicer than my present far-flung location, which I liken to a dry dusty place where, in the beginning, God chose to empty the pulverised contents of his cat litter tray.
Ooh nice !
:)
My stepson is currently in a similar place, wearing a uniform
With Martin in Basingstoke and me in Chobham looks like you are nicely central for either of us on the next do
Wakefield Turntables
20-08-2012, 16:30
im now isotek free, thanks Dave, pleasure doing business.
im now isotek free, thanks Dave, pleasure doing business.
and I am ultimate mains cable free..:lol:
Sovereign
17-09-2012, 06:45
Just read all 21 pages of this thread, there have been a few references to the Power Inspired AG1500 regenerator . Has anyone head this and been able to make comparisons to the Pure Power models?
Unless I am mistaken it has been dismissed at the statistics stage before it has been heard or compared, or have I missed something?
We dismissed the <3% waveform output distortion specification as possibly being worse than the mains supply itself. It doesn't compare well with the PS Audio distortion figures of around 0.6 - 0.8%.
I haven't heard one so cannot otherwise comment on its performance.
Just read all 21 pages of this thread, there have been a few references to the Power Inspired AG1500 regenerator . Has anyone head this and been able to make comparisons to the Pure Power models?
Unless I am mistaken it has been dismissed at the statistics stage before it has been heard or compared, or have I missed something?
As this is a PS Audio thread I'll keep this short.
Several members have the AG1500 I am told.
I looked at PS Audio because of this thread but found it hard to get a demo/home trial, costs rose and I took this as an omen. I chanced on a AG1500 at £500 as against £3500(?). It brought a pleasant improvement to sound so I'm ignoring the specs and going with what it sounds like and for the cost well worth it for me. My mains was low on problems so cannot comment on that side.
That's good to know, thanks for the positive feedback on the AG1500, Alan.
Sovereign
17-09-2012, 12:42
Thanks Martin, I only mention the AG1500 because there seems to be a lot of people on wigwam raving about it. It would be great if we could find someone who has compared the two
Thanks Martin, I only mention the AG1500 because there seems to be a lot of people on wigwam raving about it. It would be great if we could find someone who has compared the two
I suspect the cost difference is such that few have both. AG1500 is IMHO excellent value for money with none of the sophisticated controls of the PS Audio machines. AG is direct sales, PS Audio is dealer supplied.
Having said that I would like to hear a comparison myself. If the PS Audio is 7 times more effective than the AG1500 sound wise all well and good (£500 vs£3500).
Wigwam in effect promoted the AG1500 at an amazing price, but the guy who did that was in deep water for the low cost.
I have an AWG1500 on it's way shortly. I will be able to compare it with my Belkin pf40 which itself brings a good improvement.
I am hopefully upgrading as if I plug my pre-amp into the belkin it limits the dynamic range.
realysm42
17-09-2012, 18:42
I have an AWG1500 on it's way shortly. I will be able to compare it with my Belkin pf40 which itself brings a good improvement.
I am hopefully upgrading as if I plug my pre-amp into the belkin it limits the dynamic range.
I was considering one of those Belkins as a way of sipping my toes in the water; what you've just told me is all I need to hear however :D
I was considering one of those Belkins as a way of sipping my toes in the water; what you've just told me is all I need to hear however :D
Take note, the Belkin has about 6 sockets on the back. One is designed for high power equipment. My 150w Classe power amp is plugged into that. It does not suffer from reduced dynamics. Unfortunately, the normal sockets can't supply enough juice to the preamp too. The Belkin is very very good for the money. I'm so impressed with the effect it has on the power amp I want to get something I can plug the preamp into. I'll use a good quality 4 way with the AWG , prob an Oyade 4 way.
realysm42
17-09-2012, 18:56
Understood and thanks.
Sovereign
17-09-2012, 19:57
I'm sure it's Jandi100 who has heard the Pure Power and now has the AG1500 in his system.
Lets see if we can get him to shed some light.
I'm sure it's Jandi100 who has heard the Pure Power and now has the AG1500 in his system.
Lets see if we can get him to shed some light.
I think he had the PPP, not the latest range.
Big Vern
17-09-2012, 21:11
I bought the Pure Power 500w unit several years ago (trouble free operation to this point...I have forgotten it's there but know it is doing its thing) - I have a collection of 'older' turntables and the variable, poor quality of the mains near me prompted an exploration of what the Pure Power might do for me. For the price, it was a relative no brainer when set against my genuine concerns about the local mains and the potential for damage to my beloved 'tables...
In essence, I was suffering with transformer hum from my preamp, and was worried about one of my turntable imports, which had a 220v rating, but was getting nearer 250v and got much too warm for comfort. Added to this was a 'wum wum' sound, which was audible when you put your ear approximately 8" away from the direct drive motor in one of my 'tables.
Inserting the Pure Power was a bit of a revelation - the humming transformer was completely silenced and the 'wum wum' noise disappeared completely. I use mine to power my turntables - they receive a solid voltage, which seems suitably purified! :) I would love to try the 1500w version with my power amps, so would be fascinated to read if anyone has taken a Pure Power unit 'all the way'....;)
I have no doubt that Martin's PS Audio unit is in a completely different league, but the Pure Power, in my system at least, has proven itself a bit of a bargain
Best Wishes
That's very interesting, Paul. From my findings, it's the power amp that actually benefits the most from running on regenerated power, although of course all components get a good hike up in quality. It's completely counter-intuitive that an amp like my Chord, with its high frequency switched mode power supply, should benefit so much from pure sinewave power, but it really does.
If you ever do go for a 1500W Pure Power, do try it with your power amps and let us know how you find it.
Big Vern
17-09-2012, 21:43
That's very interesting, Paul. From my findings, it's the power amp that actually benefits the most from running on regenerated power, although of course all components get a good hike up in quality. It's completely counter-intuitive that an amp like my Chord, with its high frequency switched mode power supply, should benefit so much from pure sinewave power, but it really does.
If you ever do go for a 1500W Pure Power, do try it with your power amps and let us know how you find it.
Hi Martin,
You're not the first person I've 'heard' express that the power amps are the big winner - I would love to go the extra distance and give it a go. I did briefly try running my Nu Vista 300s out of the 500w unit, but at low listening levels, however, switching the amps on did not agree with the regeneration unit, so I shelved that idea before I did any damage :doh:
I will report back, should I go to the next stage, but I am in no doubt that the PS Audio unit you possess really will be in a different league
Best Wishes
I might be able to shed a little light having acquired a bargain Purepower 1050 a few months ago off ebay. Yes in my system the power amp definitely benefits the most from nice clean electric 'fuel'. My NVA TSS just came to 'active' life as it were sounding like a different amp almost. Dynamics resolution and sheer realism were all enhanced by a very noticeable factor when plugged in. As a rough reference if my DAC and phono all improved by 10% using the Purepower the NVA jumped 20% ( on a par with my AC motored 401 which just grips the music even more now). For me that is the real benefit of regeneration - every piece of equipment improves albeit by different levels.
Mervyn
Sovereign
19-09-2012, 15:27
Mileend
An NVA TSS and a Regenerator! Good Man.
I bought a regenerator second hand off AoS and I am upgrading my A80/40's to a TSS.
Getting my regen next week and the TSS when I have sold my other amps.
Have you got the Mk2 or Mk3 TSS?
Which regenerator, James?
Sovereign
19-09-2012, 22:44
Power Inspired AG1500 for £300
I am expecting delivery mid week next week. I'll post my findings.
We dismissed the <3% waveform output distortion specification as possibly being worse than the mains supply itself. It doesn't compare well with the PS Audio distortion figures of around 0.6 - 0.8%.
I haven't heard one so cannot otherwise comment on its performance.
That "3%" will probably be at 1500W continuous, which the Power Inspired AG1500 regenerator can handle. Interestingly that is more than even the Power Plant P10, which is rated at 1200W continuous. I think it would be a very interesting comparison between some PS Audio & Power Inspired products.
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 17:34
I finally took delivery of my AG1500, I put it aside as I have so much work to get through and don't have time for more hifi tin tinkering.
But yes, you guessed it an hour went by and I found myself fitting the unit.
It is quite a big piece of kit, the width is kind of standard but it is very deep and it hangs off the back of my hifi rack. As I was pushed for time I wired it up as fast as I could using a lawn mower extension lead and an Ikea extension block. It didn't work at fIrst which wound me up, I called Power inspired and I re set the unit with engineer on the phone.
Sat back, put on a test track and couldn't believe my ears, this upgrade is massive! I'm not talking about a new mains cable upgrade, or a new speaker cable I mean a massive upgrade.
Everything is richer, deeper, clearer and cleaner. There is a swing rhythm in songs that I thought were just a straight beat, the music has A LOT more textured and tonally accurate, the music separates better and stands out from the speakers and the best thing of all it just sounds a hell of a lot more REAL which is what we are all trying to achieve.
Bloody well done Power Inspired. Have a fat pat on the back from me.
I've just plugged my power inspired in. The hifi is warming up. I'm not sure it's going to be any better than my Belkin pf40. I'll let you know.
Sovereign
02-10-2012, 22:38
I've just plugged my power inspired in. The hifi is warming up. I'm not sure it's going to be any better than my Belkin pf40. I'll let you know.
AND.....????
Initial impression is its better than the Belkin. Instruments are more distinct from each other. More space around instruments. Snappier rhythms. Improved PRAT.
I'm not sure but the soundstage might be more enclosed. More listening required.
I've moved onto Massive Attack. Seismic bass, a different world to what I had before. The music is a lot louder too. I could get to 1 or 2 o'clock, now I'm only at 10pm.
There's a fine review of the PS Audio P10 in this month's Hi-Fi News. They describe it well, the only factual errors being that they noted the omission of a remote control, in fact the P10 comes with one; and they claim that the firmware can be updated via the ethernet port, in fact it needs to be updated via the SD Card slot.
Their verdict: "This versatile, high-output mains regenerator thoroughly earns its place at the head of PS Audio's latest range. It's impossible to say that it will always improve the sound quality in a system, of course, but there's good reason to suppose that with most audio equipment it will have an effect ranging from positive to positively startling. And given what it comprises and what it offers, it is notably fine value too."
MikeMusic
23-02-2013, 12:56
There's a fine review of the PS Audio P10 in this month's Hi-Fi News. They describe it well, the only factual errors being that they noted the omission of a remote control, in fact the P10 comes with one; and they claim that the firmware can be updated via the ethernet port, in fact it needs to be updated via the SD Card slot.
Their verdict: "This versatile, high-output mains regenerator thoroughly earns its place at the head of PS Audio's latest range. It's impossible to say that it will always improve the sound quality in a system, of course, but there's good reason to suppose that with most audio equipment it will have an effect ranging from positive to positively startling. And given what it comprises and what it offers, it is notably fine value too."
A good review for sure and well worded, apart from the small errors
isuckedmandelsonslemons
23-02-2013, 13:31
Oh no.
Wakefield Turntables
23-02-2013, 14:54
Could this be my 40th birthday pressie??:lol:
MikeMusic
23-02-2013, 15:16
Could this be my 40th birthday pressie??:lol:
My birthday present to myself !
realysm42
23-02-2013, 20:14
Lol harrry great minds.
Except I'm taking the isotek route
Wakefield Turntables
23-02-2013, 21:03
Except I'm taking the isotek route
NO! If your going down the mains filtration route it will rob any vibrancy out of your music. :trust: I went down the isotek route and I sold my unit, best thing I ever did.
Careful Martin, even the big Isotek regenerator won't feed your power amp. As I've found, power amps respond really well to tightly regulated power. The P10 costs less and does more.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
24-02-2013, 06:04
Martin, two bits of excellent advice already. Andrew and MartinT know their stuff. Like me, I know you are a MartinT fan (cheers Mr T) so I'm sure you'll take it on board.
Thanks, Harry. I have been a regenerator convert for many years, having owned three generations of PS Audio, and am happy to impart what I've learned to others. A system reaches a certain level of performance where a regenerator becomes the next natural upgrade, giving more bang for buck than any other component change.
MikeMusic
24-02-2013, 14:35
Listening to Eric today, Pilgrim on CD
Burning in and set up changes improve sound quality further and show a really well made album.
sheridd2
05-03-2013, 20:06
Do you know, it's the same with my Chord power amp. I swear it benefits the most from a regenerator (I know this because my first regenerator was a P300 with only source/preamp connected).
So much for switched mode power supplies being impervious to mains.
Martin .... I've been following this thread lately as a P10 may well be my next upgrade. I'm especially interested in your experiences as you run a Chord 1200E.
My own equipment is a large Chord Electronics power amp, pre-amp and Red Reference.
I'm sure you know these use Chord switch mode power supplies and Chord don't recommend mains 'accessories' as their power supplies are converting mains current to DC and then to ultra high frequency and thus they say are not affected by mains quality the same way other amplifiers are.
I'd love to hear more detail on your experience with the P10 and Chord.
Any other owners of the P10 with Chord equipment please join in.
Wakefield Turntables
05-03-2013, 21:21
The P10 could be my next upgrade but I have to think about if it will improve my active ATC speakers. The ATC fourms says it wont make a bit of difference but several P10 owners claim that AMPS are markedly improved, I have six of the buggers and a pre-amp in my system!! My main system is quite minimal in that it has a turntable power supply, a pre-amp, a phono stage and two active speakers. So, in my situation would a P5 be better??? HHHmmmm decision decisions i guess the only real way to test this would be to try a P5 and a P10. :doh: Any comments of my predicament would be very very welcome.
Martin .... I've been following this thread lately as a P10 may well be my next upgrade. I'm especially interested in your experiences as you run a Chord 1200E.
My own equipment is a large Chord Electronics power amp, pre-amp and Red Reference.
I'm sure you know these use Chord switch mode power supplies and Chord don't recommend mains 'accessories' as their power supplies are converting mains current to DC and then to ultra high frequency and thus they say are not affected by mains quality the same way other amplifiers are.
I'd love to hear more detail on your experience with the P10 and Chord.
Any other owners of the P10 with Chord equipment please join in.
Hi David
Yes I know all about Chord's odd views and I've spoken with John Franks about subjects like good mains and keeping the amp switched on for long periods of time. Let's just say that he is a brilliant designer but, like many, he has difficulty interacting with his public.
I have no doubt whatsoever that my 1200E responds magnificently to regenerated power. I know it's counter-intuitive, that the switched mode PSU chops and reconstructs high frequency AC to very stable and stiff DC. It should be impervious. Regeneration cannot help. Etc. etc. Cobblers.
You'll have to trust me that the P10 makes a great power amplifier absolutely stellar in its performance. The sense of structural bass, the air and space in the soundstage, the vanishingly low noise floor, the enormously transparent and hear-through midrange, are all very audible. I once had serious designs on a pair of 1400E monoblocks, but quite honestly the 1200E is idling even driving my Ushers to seismic levels. It also kicks like no other amp I've ever tried. The P10 and 1200E are a stunning combination.
sheridd2
05-03-2013, 23:33
Hi David
Yes I know all about Chord's odd views and I've spoken with John Franks about subjects like good mains and keeping the amp switched on for long periods of time. Let's just say that he is a brilliant designer but, like many, he has difficulty interacting with his public.
I have no doubt whatsoever that my 1200E responds magnificently to regenerated power. I know it's counter-intuitive, that the switched mode PSU chops and reconstructs high frequency AC to very stable and stiff DC. It should be impervious. Regeneration cannot help. Etc. etc. Cobblers.
You'll have to trust me that the P10 makes a great power amplifier absolutely stellar in its performance. The sense of structural bass, the air and space in the soundstage, the vanishingly low noise floor, the enormously transparent and hear-through midrange, are all very audible. I once had serious designs on a pair of 1400E monoblocks, but quite honestly the 1200E is idling even driving my Ushers to seismic levels. It also kicks like no other amp I've ever tried. The P10 and 1200E are a stunning combination.
Thanks Martin, lots to think about.
MikeMusic
06-03-2013, 07:45
guess the only real way to test this would be to try a P5 and a P10.
Agreed
You won't want it to go back though
Can you manage with one or do you need 2 ?
Thinking of where your active amps are located
MikeMusic
06-03-2013, 07:52
Yes I know all about Chord's odd views and I've spoken with John Franks about subjects like good mains and keeping the amp switched on for long periods of time. Let's just say that he is a brilliant designer but, like many, he has difficulty interacting with his public.
One of the collection of people in the industry who do great things but have some odd opinions
Best test = the users and their ears - us lot
:)
I find the same with printing equipment and software.
The manufacturers and sales people, even engineers know it up to a point, but they don't use it.
When you have to *use* it you find things that "can't be done"
Indeed, Mike. Haven't we had similar discussions about James of Whest? Brilliant phono pre that works superbly well with SUTs, but he continually slates them and recommends direct MC connection which we both know sounds inferior.
MikeMusic
06-03-2013, 08:25
Indeed, Mike. Haven't we had similar discussions about James of Whest? Brilliant phono pre that works superbly well with SUTs, but he continually slates them and recommends direct MC connection which we both know sounds inferior.
Yes. Took the wind nicely out of my sails when he said that.
We have to believe what some of the people say some of the time perhaps.
Recent conversations about the dilapidations I have to have done for this unit are in the same vein. If I believed what all the different contractors said my brain would melt.
And the classic from Xerox engineers who see what we do with our Docutech
"You can't do that" - and we do !
:)
Wakefield Turntables
06-03-2013, 09:36
Indeed, Mike. Haven't we had similar discussions about James of Whest? Brilliant phono pre that works superbly well with SUTs, but he continually slates them and recommends direct MC connection which we both know sounds inferior.
Yes. Took the wind nicely out of my sails when he said that.
We have to believe what some of the people say some of the time perhaps.
Recent conversations about the dilapidations I have to have done for this unit are in the same vein. If I believed what all the different contractors said my brain would melt.
And the classic from Xerox engineers who see what we do with our Docutech
"You can't do that" - and we do !
:)
Yep I had a similar conversation with him and I must admit it put me off for a while until I thought sod it and just got a sut anyway. :lol:
Agreed
You won't want it to go back though
Can you manage with one or do you need 2 ?
Thinking of where your active amps are located
Good point, will give it some thought :scratch:
Audioman
06-03-2013, 14:48
This thread has now received the attentions of Richard (Mr Angry) on his anti AOS thread. He suggests one of these should be just as good.
http://upsmart.co.uk/ag1500-regenerator-1500w-p-1742.html?osCsid=d6768efb5a5a90d89f838ae7c34b4dc8
For once I have some sympathy with this view. PS audio are probably technically superb but they are premium price especially since they are a US import. If you want to try regeneration this may be worth experimenting with before shelling out £6K. Saw one being used at Scalford but can't remember what with.
Wakefield Turntables
06-03-2013, 14:58
Paul, thanks for the heads up, I s'pose it's worth a look.
It's fine to make the suggestion, but from my POV the P10 does the job extremely well and has the build quality and substance to back its price, certainly when compared with similarly beefy 1.5kW amplifiers (of which the P10 is a sophisticated type).
If someone can compare an AG1500 with a P10 then we might have some experience-based assessment to help decide on their relative worth.
MikeMusic
06-03-2013, 15:03
This thread has now received the attentions of Richard (Mr Angry) on his anti AOS thread. He suggests one of these should be just as good.
http://upsmart.co.uk/ag1500-regenerator-1500w-p-1742.html?osCsid=d6768efb5a5a90d89f838ae7c34b4dc8
For once I have some sympathy with this view. PS audio are probably technically superb but they are premium price especially since they are a US import. If you want to try regeneration this may be worth experimenting with before shelling out £6K. Saw one being used at Scalford but can't remember what with.
£499 piece of kit beats a P10 ?
I'd be happy to spend £499 and move mine on, but I don't think it will come anywhere near it
No one sells P10s for £6k. Actually I would, make a very tidy profit and buy another.
I'm happy to trial mine against any others.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.