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Neil McCauley
15-12-2008, 13:28
A criterion recently identified elsewhere on this forum by a magazine editor regarding how a product is deselected from being short listed for a review has taken me by surprise. On the face of it, if there isn’t a defined retail network, then the chances of that product being reviewed are compromised.

To me this seems archaic. For example, what about makers who decide to sell direct to the public, which in turn reduces the RRP by a substantial amount by eliminating dealer margins, transport costs, transit insurance and so on?

As a retailer myself, naturally I’d be a little uncomfortable about direct selling as I have invested many 10s of £thousands in demo stock.

However as a ‘civilian’ I would find direct purchase very attractive because of (a) the very substantial cost-saving and (b) the fact that by law I as a consumer have a 28 day refund facility if unsatisfied whereas some conventional dealers would prefer / insist on offer a credit note.

Thus could it be legitimately argued that an editorial policy that looks negatively on products which are responsibly and efficiently supplied at no-risk direct to audiophile consumers, is counterproductive to the best interests of that magazine’s readership?

Despite my vested interest as a ‘conventional’ retailer, I do believe that such an editorial policy is in today's market counterproductive. But am I alone in this view?

Regards

HP

Colin
15-12-2008, 13:55
In a way I support the magazines view. I may be in the minority, but I actualy prefer the distributor/retail system. It may cost me more as a customer of the system in terms of cash paid for the product, BUT against that the actual overall cost is probably less.

Given the methology I would have to use if everything was purchased direct, can you iamgine the logistics of arranging for 3 or 4 direct vendors to supply me amps and speakers to try at home. The initial problem of actually having them delivered, how many days off work would that be to receive them. Then again to have the items returned.

Be prepared to have the cost of 3 or 4 items charged out of your account for however long it takes for them to be evaluated in your system, and returned, and the monies credited back.

Having the house turned into a demonstration room while everything is evaluated etc.

It starts to make the margins charged by the retailer look reasonable. You also have the added safety blanket, that if a piece needs repair, during, or after its warranty period a decent dealer will normally lend you a spare while the repair is carried out.

The direct route appeals to the wallet, the retailer route appeals to everything else.

Clive
15-12-2008, 13:56
Howard,

Possibly I'm not reading the same posting you are referring to. I read:

* is it available for purchase by the general public?

I didn't take this are meaning a defined retail network. Surely a website would suffice. The Evolution tangential tracking arm by Trans-Fi (Vic) was reviewed in HFW (the arm is now replaced by the Terminator). This is only for sale via a website.

There's also World Designs - linked but I don't think owned by HFW; but that's no doubt a very special case.

Neil McCauley
15-12-2008, 13:57
Thank you Colin. a very interesting response.

Sincerely

Howard

Neil McCauley
15-12-2008, 14:07
Howard,

Possibly I'm not reading the same posting you are referring to. I read:

* is it available for purchase by the general public?

I didn't take this are meaning a defined retail network. Surely a website would suffice. The Evolution tangential tracking arm by Trans-Fi (Vic) was reviewed in HFW (the arm is now replaced by the Terminator). This is only for sale via a website.

There's also World Designs - linked but I don't think owned by HFW; but that's no doubt a very special case.

The original piece that was the catalyst for my post reads as follows: "So how many dealers do you have? "Ermm, none"

I agree that a website would suffice. However editorial policy might not agree. As for the reviews (and in my experience, fully justified) of World Designs, forgive me if I quote from George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' - "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." It sums up my view completely.

anthonyTD
15-12-2008, 14:09
A criterion recently identified elsewhere on this forum by a magazine editor regarding how a product is deselected from being short listed for a review has taken me by surprise. On the face of it, if there isn’t a defined retail network, then the chances of that product being reviewed are compromised.

To me this seems archaic. For example, what about makers who decide to sell direct to the public, which in turn reduces the RRP by a substantial amount by eliminating dealer margins, transport costs, transit insurance and so on?

As a retailer myself, naturally I’d be a little uncomfortable about direct selling as I have invested many 10s of £thousands in demo stock.

However as a ‘civilian’ I would find direct purchase very attractive because of (a) the very substantial cost-saving and (b) the fact that by law I as a consumer have a 28 day refund facility if unsatisfied whereas some conventional dealers would prefer / insist on offer a credit note.

Thus could it be legitimately argued that an editorial policy that looks negatively on products which are responsibly and efficiently supplied at no-risk direct to audiophile consumers, is counterproductive to the best interests of that magazine’s readership?

Despite my vested interest as a ‘conventional’ retailer, I do believe that such an editorial policy is in today's market counterproductive. But am I alone in this view?

Regards

HP

hi howard,
you make a good point, but having had experience with reviewers and magazines through out my career, i can also see it from their point of view too, one of the first audio products i had reviewed under the Tube Distinctions brand was in 1998, and it was by jason kenedy of then hi fi choice, his criterier was first and foremost that it had to be a product that was to be put into production, and also i had to advise him of how the genral public would be able to purchase the product, and through what avenues they would be sold.
only after i had convinced him that it would be a viable product for him to review did he agree, the amplifier in question was one from the copper series [now marco's own amp] it turned out to be very well received by all who auditioned it while with jason, needless to say he gave it the big thumbs up in the review.
my point is, reviewers have to be open minded to a point, but they also have to make sure that they dont commit them selves to something that may later leave them with egg on their faces.:doh:
regards,anthony,TD...

Neil McCauley
15-12-2008, 14:32
But that was 10 years ago. The World in general and Internet sales in particular have changed. Whereas editorial policy - in terms of delivering tangible reader benefits - rather than the needs of others, seems rooted in the 1990s. My guess is that no one can buck market forces!

John
15-12-2008, 15:38
As a Cilvian I want the maximum performance at the a fair price Sometimes I buy direct from the manufacturer eg Trans Fi other times via a dealerit will depend on product performance ratio and the knowledge I can the item repaired or even upgraded in the future I tend to now also to buy my cable needs from ebay and so far had no issues with using this method
I thimk HIFI World are planning to review Vic's Terminator in the future

Primalsea
15-12-2008, 19:48
I would imagine that the mags (especially Hifi world, as they seem more down to earth than others) get a constantly badgered by people wanting them to review their stuff. At some point some consistant policy has to be put in place to determine what gets a review. I dont edit magazines but I know from my work I don't have time to invest a lot of time in completely unknown quantities. I would stick my neck out and say this is the same for people (yes they are just people) who write for the mags. I cant imagine anyone would want to review everything that gets thrown their way with the knowledge that a large part of it would be a waste of time. Especially when there are deadlines and other commitments.

On the other hand I can imagine that a lot of what gets reviewed is from a stable list contacts that has been built up over the years. Everyone tends to live and work in their comfort zones. I know from experience that most of the time there is no conspiracy, just gravitation towards the centre of the comfort zone. I have seen some interesting reviews in Hifi World though. There was the wooden tonearm, the AM Terminator tonearm, a Buffer Stage to use with equipment with less than optimum output impedances or long cables.

On the other post, when I first started in Hifi my main concern was to buy at the best price possible. This seems like a good idea but you do end up comprimising your system. This is where good dealers come into play. OK you have to pay a bit more than if you could buy direct but where else can you listen to a wide range of equipment easily. Good dealers (yes they do exist) know their stuff and don't talk bollocks abnd give good advice. Sales departments of a manufacturer won't say" well your best bet is out amp but with our main competitiors CD palyer".

Ali Tait
15-12-2008, 20:04
Perhaps an exception to the rule,but Stan has had his dac reviewed.

Neil McCauley
15-12-2008, 21:02
I would imagine that the mags (especially Hifi world, as they seem more down to earth than others) get a constantly badgered by people wanting them to review their stuff. At some point some consistant policy has to be put in place to determine what gets a review. I dont edit magazines but I know from my work I don't have time to invest a lot of time in completely unknown quantities. I would stick my neck out and say this is the same for people (yes they are just people) who write for the mags. I cant imagine anyone would want to review everything that gets thrown their way with the knowledge that a large part of it would be a waste of time. Especially when there are deadlines and other commitments.

On the other hand I can imagine that a lot of what gets reviewed is from a stable list contacts that has been built up over the years. Everyone tends to live and work in their comfort zones. I know from experience that most of the time there is no conspiracy, just gravitation towards the centre of the comfort zone. I have seen some interesting reviews in Hifi World though. There was the wooden tonearm, the AM Terminator tonearm, a Buffer Stage to use with equipment with less than optimum output impedances or long cables.

On the other post, when I first started in Hifi my main concern was to buy at the best price possible. This seems like a good idea but you do end up comprimising your system. This is where good dealers come into play. OK you have to pay a bit more than if you could buy direct but where else can you listen to a wide range of equipment easily. Good dealers (yes they do exist) know their stuff and don't talk bollocks abnd give good advice. Sales departments of a manufacturer won't say" well your best bet is out amp but with our main competitiors CD palyer".

Every maker and I do mean EVERY maker was unkown at some point. For me, I try hard to escape from my comfort zone. That's how I reduce the opportunity for my complacency.

The point is this - and of course it can't be quantified but it's still worth pondering; how much truly good gear never gets exposed to the readership of ANY audio magazine (no David, I'm not having a dig at you - okay!) merely because some of the staff are overworked and the magazine owner is a tight-arse?

Think on this. If a magazine for expediency relies on the "A" list for the bulk of its review material, then that maker has free rein to submit whatever piece of over-priced junk they see fit simply because they know full well that the sort of critical approach applied to 'the also rans' will be muted - because that magazine wants as hassle-free existence as possible - and the needs / aspirations of the readers [and despite than hand ringing and crocodile tears] is not a priority.

Ali Tait
15-12-2008, 21:31
Well in that case the internet is a great thing! Not sure where Stan would be without it as far as the dac is concerned?

anthonyTD
15-12-2008, 21:36
Every maker and I do mean EVERY maker was unkown at some point. For me, I try hard to escape from my comfort zone. That's how I reduce the opportunity for my complacency.

The point is this - and of course it can't be quantified but it's still worth pondering; how much truly good gear never gets exposed to the readership of ANY audio magazine (no David, I'm not having a dig at you - okay!) merely because some of the staff are overworked and the magazine owner is a tight-arse?

Think on this. If a magazine for expediency relies on the "A" list for the bulk of its review material, then that maker has free rein to submit whatever piece of over-priced junk they see fit simply because they know full well that the sort of critical approach applied to 'the also rans' will be muted - because that magazine wants as hassle-free existence as possible - and the needs / aspirations of the readers [and despite than hand ringing and crocodile tears] is not a priority.

hi howard,
i dont think there is anyone on here who would be that gulible to think that this dosent go on in the real world, but as long as free thinking is still allowed in this country [counting down the days :(] one persons idea of a good product, worthy of a review, will almost always be chalenged by some one elses denial. beleive me i have witnessed first hand products from certain companies being reviewed time after time, for all the wrong reasons, but i would still like to think that there are a lot of good reviewers out there who are trying desperately to stop this thing becoming the norm.
just my ramblings mind you.
anthony,TD...

StanleyB
15-12-2008, 21:53
Well in that case the internet is a great thing! Not sure where Stan would be without it as far as the dac is concerned?
I have been around far longer than you think. Before online selling and the internet was a big thing, I made my name on dial up bulletin boards in the mid 90's. Together with a business partner, who unfortunately passed away just as the business was expanding, we had a firm grip of the hard disk and SIMMS market. When a 1.6GB HD cost nearly £2K, I was selling them at £500 or less. Then I stupidly agreed to wind my business up after my partner passed away, and take on a job with a company who then robbed me blindly.

Ali Tait
15-12-2008, 22:15
Was aware you'd been around a while :) What I was getting at is would your Dac have been as successful as it has been without the 'net?

StanleyB
15-12-2008, 22:23
I did have an offer from two big retailers in the UK for them to sell it. But I am not into 60 days credit and all that other rubbish. Price would have been higher as well.

Ali Tait
15-12-2008, 22:39
Done the mod by the way,used Black Gates.Not done the op-amp yet,just got them delivered today.Will fit tomorrow if I have time.Sounding good so far,though I'll probably have to wait till this time next year for the BG's to run in!

Marco
16-12-2008, 08:12
I may be in the minority, but I actualy prefer the distributor/retail system. It may cost me more as a customer of the system in terms of cash paid for the product, BUT against that the actual overall cost is probably less.

Given the methology I would have to use if everything was purchased direct, can you iamgine the logistics of arranging for 3 or 4 direct vendors to supply me amps and speakers to try at home. The initial problem of actually having them delivered, how many days off work would that be to receive them. Then again to have the items returned.

Be prepared to have the cost of 3 or 4 items charged out of your account for however long it takes for them to be evaluated in your system, and returned, and the monies credited back.

Having the house turned into a demonstration room while everything is evaluated etc.

It starts to make the margins charged by the retailer look reasonable. You also have the added safety blanket, that if a piece needs repair, during, or after its warranty period a decent dealer will normally lend you a spare while the repair is carried out.

The direct route appeals to the wallet, the retailer route appeals to everything else.

Spot on, Colin! I agree with every word. That's what makes the likes of NVA's business model, IMO, so fatally flawed.

Going direct works well for the likes of Stan because he just sells a rather neat, compact, inexpensive and good sounding DAC, which can be paid for/posted/evaluated/returned, if necessary, with relative ease. I wouldn't want to be doing the same with large amplifiers and speakers!

Also, too many people these days use Ebay as a panacea for their hi-fi aspirations. For sure, if you know exactly what you're buying and which components to combine to build a synergistically matched and therefore musically satisfying system, then Ebay is your friend. However, unfortunately your average punter doesn't know his arse from his elbow in that respect and is far more likely to create a 'dog's dinner' than a 'gourmet meal'...

That's where the advice and knowledge of a good dealer (or knowledgeable and sympathetic manufacturer dealing direct) comes in - to help avoid those pitfalls which are sadly all too often seen!

Marco.

Neil McCauley
16-12-2008, 09:26
done the mod by the way,used black gates.not done the op-amp yet,just got them delivered today.will fit tomorrow if i have time.sounding good so far,though i'll probably have to wait till this time next year for the bg's to run in!

Thread drift I believe. Am I correct?!

Marco
16-12-2008, 10:51
Indeed, but not much, so please calm down.

Ali, if you wouldn't mind mate please keep the discussion on topic - cheers!

I know that I'm as guity as others when it comes to thread drift but we don't want Howard taking any more of a 'flakey' :)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
16-12-2008, 10:55
Indeed, but not much, so please calm down.
Marco.
I am calm dear. Really!

Marco
16-12-2008, 10:59
Ok, but don't use bold, enlarged, red letters to make your point then, dear :)

We can read it just fine in normal text!

Marco.

Neil McCauley
16-12-2008, 12:29
Ok, but don't use bold, enlarged, red letters to make your point then, dear :)

We can read it just fine in normal text!

Marco.

Wot - even the old folks?

Clive
16-12-2008, 12:44
Ok this is thread drift......whatever the colour and size. Some thread drift is fine with me. It's a conversation. If you know how a thread or a conversation is going to play out then there's not much point having it.

Marco
16-12-2008, 12:51
How very true :)

I think we've had enough on the subject of 'thread drift' now chaps; otherwise those complaining about it will be just as guilty as the actions of those whom they're complaining about!

Back to "Looking at audiophile retailing from a civilian's perspective"...

Marco.

DSJR
16-12-2008, 14:07
If things carry on as they are, I doubt there'll be many specialist audio retailers left. it was only a few years ago that people trading from their homes weren't regarded as "proper" dealers (no offence Howard), yet this is becoming the norm these days.

I wonder if the mags' circulation is still declining? Our local W H Smiths was wondeful as it stocked them all, even "Plush," yet apart from this and WTF, which is now a TV (plus Cyrus and a bit of Naim) rag, I haven't seen the others for a while...

Spectral Morn
16-12-2008, 16:17
I think this is on topic so here goes.

The various business models employed by retailers today have constantly come under attack by many market forces (this applies to all areas, not just Audio). The single biggest issue/change is the Internet. Many dealers( and until I lost my job recently, I was such ) find it increasingly frustrating that they, no matter what they do find that potential customers will come have the demos home or shop, and then chase the cheapest price in town or on the net. Many want you to act like an audio lending library complain when you don't bring in the latest toys and when you do still go buy it elsewhere. This lack of support and a now rare thing customer loyalty is putting many out of business. There are poor/bad dealers out there who frankly don't deserve to survive(but do, HOW ?) and many good ones go to the wall trying their very best. The costs in running any type of retail business model are huge and audio is no exception and yet a labour of love (for many including me) is undercut by those who work on a very small margin and have no overheads( I am not talking about Howard here). Your hard work is rewarded by these so called customers going to buy what you have demoed from these sources. All the many hours of work and cost are lost just because something is a bit cheaper via mail order etc. However when it goes wrong they land on your door stating you are the agent fix this. Now I have never turned any one away but it does stick in your throat a bit( A lot) when this happens.

Howard's model (a lot of what he does is because of who he is) is rapidly becoming the only game in town. Major overheads are reduced and most of the stress of these mounting bills, following the normal retail model are reduced allowing a calmer and more bespoke service. Sales still need to be made but the wolf at the door does not have to be feed in the same way, which leads to poor impersonal service or a conveyor belt mentality ; must make the next sale and on and on and on-Box shifting.

If I was going to ever go back to audio I would follow Howard's path ( the one hes currently on ). The reason shop based Dealers are less snooty now is they can see the writing on the wall for the bricks and mortar high street pitch. In the past they were just envious and angry at good audio sales being made with no massive overhead burden and I should add that quite often these no bricks and motor retailers played by the rules and kept standards very high. Less overheads also mean that better trade ins can also be given. The risks are still very high, if it goes wrong. It used to be (before the credit crunch) that if you owned your shop that banks would be very helpful in supporting you. However today this safety net has gone (mostly ) and there is very little advantage in having a shop. Even long standing business that has done well is standing on sand foundations now.

The future of audio retailing is in our hands,those in the trade and the enthusiast. A work man is worth his/her wage and if they do an excellent job then by all means give them your support. If not find someone who does.
If you are one of those who use a shop as a library,moan and complain at a lack of new toys(how can this be done if sales are low) and exploit good dealers and then buy on the net or s/h (near new product) then SHAME ON YOU ! :steam: If you are one of those people at least be honest and don't waste peoples time, however it can be rewarding to engage with dealers and let them persuade you that what the good ones have to offer is worth having, even if it costs a bit more. If you can't afford new gear then you can still have a good relationship with dealers as nearly all sell S/H kit.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

John
16-12-2008, 18:15
Over the years I have got tired of being treated by a fool by alot of dealers Thankfuly all those dealers that had that crap attiude have gone the way of the Dodo. To be honest I imagine the audio field to have a limited and very compitive market I imagine for most people its a struggle.
I try not to go to dealers unless I really want to purchase a equipment and usually I have a list of items I want to try out (I am honest to the dealer about this), For instance when buying my phonostage I tried about 6 in my system. Only one I really liked; which I purchased right away.
I think running your own buisness must be quite hard but also when things going well to be really rewarding in ways that are not always about money, but this can add a deaper meaning into life.

Spectral Morn
16-12-2008, 18:36
Yes its very sad when dealers treat people like fools or are rude etc. I don't understand why. They, Dealers should treat every one with respect and be prepared to be evangelical about their passion. View every encounter as an opportunity to learn, teach and enjoy. This issue relates a bit to the attitude of some hi-fi mags writers to people on Forums ( see thread Half-a-brain loonies ). What happened to being open minded and prepared to listen and learn. And disagree like gentlemen or ladies.

In my early days in the trade and later I loved sharing discoveries and picking up tips as well as sharing musical interests. I was constantly learning about new music. The information flow was a two way street and yes audio was bought ans sold as well. Your right about it being rewarding. For me every person who saw the light, made a new discovery or had their little piece of heaven in their system , this filled me with joy. The same joy I had at home listening to music on my system. I miss this a lot now.:(

regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

John
16-12-2008, 18:44
I agree its about the sharing of music insights and that mutral passion with people who understand that and if you discover something new or help someone along the way then thats reward in itself
I guess my biggest passion is sharing music, thats why I join in on forums Its certainly not about displaying my ego in public
Neil hope your sitiuation changes soon you have a lot of passion to share