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Neil McCauley
06-12-2008, 20:04
Good evening David.

Could you give us an insight please on the criteria you apply for not taking a product for review.

I ask because of late I’ve had a number of emails from people speculating if the primary reason for non appearance in Hi-Fi World might be because the maker can’t or won’t advertise in your publication.

My response was along the lines of the suspicion that you are probably inundated with requests and you have neither the time nor space to let your readership know about all new models. On the face if it, people seem to accept the rationale of this – however the lingering thought it seems is curiosity about how your publication decides what not to publish. I must admit that some of these emails do contain the implied supposition of editorial favouritism.

As one person said in an email – if Naim released a dishwasher, Hi-Fi World would give it 5 globes for musicality even before the first rinse cycle had started!’

Primalsea
06-12-2008, 20:30
As one person said in an email – if Naim released a dishwasher, Hi-Fi World would give it 5 globes for musicality even before the first rinse cycle had started!’


Well the Dyson washing machine certainly sucked.

Mr. C
07-12-2008, 08:22
Howard,


We have had products reviewed in Hifi world magazine, we do not advertise in the mag itself.
Coherent systems has no connection with any of the staff either.
The products that were reviewed were not valve or kit based orientated either.
They were helpful and for a magazine fairly swift in returning the equipment too.

Tony

Marco
07-12-2008, 11:58
I ask because of late I’ve had a number of emails from people suggesting that the primary reason for non appearance in Hi-Fi World is because the maker can’t or won’t advertise in your publication.


Howard,

I would watch making comments like that in the public domain without proof, even if they are coming from a third party.

On a separate issue, I'd like to ask David what Mr Keywood has got against the Denon DL-103. Given the level of vitriol in a response of his to a reader's letter in the current issue of HFW was so completely OTT, I suspect he has some sort of axe to grind. I'd like to find out what. I shall tackle this in a separate thread later ;)

Marco.

Clive
07-12-2008, 14:29
On a separate issue, I'd like to ask David what Mr Keywood has got against the Denon DL-103. Given the level of vitriol in a response of his to a reader's letter in the current issue of HFW was so completely OTT, I suspect he has some sort of axe to grind. I'd like to find out what. I shall tackle this in a separate thread later ;)

Marco.
I suspect what we have now is a polarized situation. Probably it started off with 103 promoters saying the 103 was pretty good and great value. Noel and others said it's not that good. People have since become more polarized and fixed in their positions. Now the 103 is dated and a waste of space to some and dog's b***ocks to others.

Primalsea
07-12-2008, 14:33
There was an article a while ago when NK & DP re-reviewed the 103. If I remember correctly they set it up using the extra weight on the headshell and they said that it was actually not bad, just not to their taste.

At this point I think we should apologise to Howard as this is going off original topic. However I suspect he put the question on the forum to invite response from others as well anyway.

Steve Toy
07-12-2008, 14:51
Now the 103 is dated and a waste of space to some and dog's b***ocks to others.

I don't think something like a cartridge can ever become "dated." This presumes that cartridges are getting better with new models. Somehow I doubt it.

Marco
07-12-2008, 14:56
I suspect what we have now is a polarized situation. Probably it started off with 103 promoters saying the 103 was pretty good and great value. Noel and others said it's not that good. People have since become more polarized and fixed in their positions. Now the 103 is dated and a waste of space to some and dog's b***ocks to others.

I'm currently having luncheon (some roast guinea foul wrapped in Serrano ham in a white wine and mushroom sauce) accompanied by a rather fine Burgundy. Later when I've sobered up, I'll copy and paste what was written (in a separate thread) and you can judge for yourself if what Noel wrote was justified :cheers:

Valves are "dated" too, Clive, and yet... Well, I think you know the point I'm making without me going any further ;)

But yes, back on topic...

Marco.

P.S Some of the best sounds I've heard from vinyl have come via 'classic' cartridges.

Clive
07-12-2008, 15:14
Hi Marco, enjoy the food and drink.....I wasn't offering any opinion or view about the 103, just how Noel seemed to think about it originally and how his view has now hardened - yes I did read this this month's letter - it was over the top and by a long way. This is one side of the polarization I'm referring too. Because some have stood by the 103 so strongly Noel seems to be even more negative about it now.

Personally, I could live with a 103 but it's not one of my top choices but it's nowhere near the bottom either.

Dave Cawley
07-12-2008, 21:44
We need to keep Hi Fi World on our side. This isn't helping!!

It's lovely here in Miami!!

Regards

Dave

Marco
07-12-2008, 22:09
Absolutely, Dave. But that won't stop me from constructively criticising something that I feel is somewhat unjust! :)

I'm glad you're enjoying Miami - lucky sod! It's tough at the top, eh? :smoking:

Marco.

sastusbulbas
09-12-2008, 18:15
We need to keep Hi Fi World on our side. This isn't helping!!

It's lovely here in Miami!!

Regards

Dave

Interesting, what magazines and reviewers have ever been on the "magazine reader in a public forum" side?

DSJR
09-12-2008, 20:38
I still think HFW is one of the best of the UK mags and I've also been very pleasantly surprised by Alan Sircom's attitude and knowledge too (a different mag now and on another forum). I just wish DP had been around "first time round," even though he's in his early forties apparently. He missed the raging seventies and I rather think it shows at times IMO...

Regarding the DL103. Marco's gonna regret reminding me to visit here more often, but objectively, the 103 has, in the standard model, a bass up-top down balance and this gets worse as the side progresses, due to the conical tip not tracing the grooves as well. having said that, it's obvious that this cartridge has a balance of qualities that many audiophiles love, it can apparently be further refined by third parties and apparently re-tips well with non-conical styli (as long as the re-tipper knows what the 103 is all about - Expert Pickups come to mind here) and if used with the massive arms it was designed for, it works even better I'm reliably told.

jandl100
12-12-2008, 08:35
I've a DL103 - very nice cart. Nowt wrong with it at all for £90 that I can hear!

Sometimes these forum and mag fads / anti-fads just get way out of hand and push some folks to verbal extremes.

Neil McCauley
12-12-2008, 21:40
I think we can conclude, as a consequence of him not wishing to reply, that "David has left the building" Oh well. Thought we might get a useful dialogue going. Guess he remains tight-lipped AND inscrutable on the trickier issues.

And to avoid jumping to the wrong conclusions as is apt to happen, I used 'building' as a metaphor for AOS forum.

Primalsea
12-12-2008, 22:18
Possible thats the case but it could be many others things. He may be busy, not wishing to get drawn into such debates to avoid a precident, who knows.

Whatever the reason we shouldn't speculate as some people might read between the lines and get 42 from 2 + 2.

I have noticed that all mags seem to get tarred with the same brush sometimes. This is unfair as they all have a different direction and some are more altruistic than others.

Neil McCauley
12-12-2008, 22:41
As for precedent, well none of us know. And we won't - unless he wants to inform us.

As for #42, well ….. why not? DP wields influence. Does this mean he is in some way exempted from gentle questioning? Surely not!

As for tarred with the same brush, well who's to blame for that?

Finally, as for altruism … Personally i don't think that the willingness to provide answers posed by the very people who's 'indulgence' keeps Editors in a job could be construed as altruistic. Strikes me as plain common sense. And the refusal to do so as ignorance, arrogance or both.

How would you feel if you emailed me and I refused to answer? Hmm?

Marco
12-12-2008, 23:01
Hi Howard,

I've contacted David and provided a link to this thread so hopefully he'll be along soon :)

Marco.

Primalsea
12-12-2008, 23:49
Hi Howard,

Don't get me wrong here I do agree with what you say. I was just saying that we shouldn't take a lack of response as an admission of guilt as it were. Even if this wasn't what you meant unfortunately some people will read it this way.

Agreed though it would state for the record the critereon regarding reviews. Something that readers should be privy to.

David Price
13-12-2008, 01:49
Hi Howard,

Well - my lack of response is simply because I haven't been on the forum for about a week. How so? Well we're running close to the Feb issue deadline and I simply don't have time to go on and read/post.

So... in my absence it seems the conspiracies have grown... Thanks to Marco for tipping me off that there was an answer needed! I can't promise to do this every time, I'm afraid...

Okay - so what makes us not review something? Interesting one, as there are lots of factors...

First, I get umpteen people phoning me up every week, often with very long stories, some of which finally arrive at the point - they have designed a speaker/amplifier/turntable and they'd like a review. Okay, so how many are available for review? "Ermm, one". So how many dealers do you have? "Ermm, none". So basically you're a hobbyist with no production facilities/measurement facilities/distribution/dealer facilities and you'd like a review? "Ermm, yes please..."

This is the biggest problem that faces me. Very nice, well intentioned hobbyists, seeking a verdict on their work. Frankly - we can't do this - we don't have time and even if it was great (which, experience teaches, is almost never the case) we'd have umpteen readers calling in saying, "where can I buy this?", and I'd have to say, "ermm - you can't". To which they'd reply, "well why did you review it..."?

The next problem is manufacturers, often small but not always, sending us products. We then measure them, and they're awful. In fact, often they don't even work at all. So we have to contact them and say "sorry, no review, the measured performance isn't up to scratch" - due too much distortion/hum/noise/unsafe electrically, etc. There are a LOT of manufacturers that we're involved with at this level. They either say the sample is faulty (then we get another one in, and it often measures little better), or they phone Noel and tell him how to measure a speaker/turntable/whatever. Given that Noel's measured 10,000 plus speakers and almost as many amps since he was editor of Hi-Fi Answers in 1976, he sometimes takes 'umbrage' at this!

Measured Performance isn't universally perfect at sorting the wheat from the chaff, but it is the least imperfect (like Churchill said of democracy). We won't run reviews of things that measure dreadfully, unless the manufacturer absolutely insists and we think there's a valid debate to be had around this particular case. Usually, it's tears before bedtime... It's interesting to note the very well engineered bits of kit tend to measure very well - Technics SL1200 take a bow!

Next, beyond the dealers and MP issues, I have to take a view on what is worth reviewing. There are a number of products I would like to review but simply haven't got round to, and also a number of products whose manufacturers won't supply samples. Given that many companies employ professional PR people to knock on my door constantly, asking for reviews, and other makers contact me directly in an energetic manner - a company that stays silent, doesn't pick up the phone or doesn't want to get a sample to me isn't the most likely to be reviewed. Put crudely - if we're handed a review sample on a plate - what we want and when we want it - we're more likely to review it - this is pragmatism and nothing more.

Finally advertising. It's the internet forum's magic bullet, isn't it. I have to say I can say that no, this doesn't affect our reviewing policy, but you probably won't believe me. So I can simply observe that the two products that I've championed most recently are Technics SL1200s (and no Technics don't advertise) and the Yamaha NS1000M (no longer available and not advertised!). Then there are products like Rega we often review (who never advertise anywhere) and all those olde worldes (how much adsales do we get off those?)...

I honestly can't speak for the other mags, but I have to say the forum mantra that everything we do is informed by advertising makes me want to jump off a bridge sometimes - it is so wide of the mark. There are so many other, far more important factors which come before this in the chain - which everyone forgets about/doesn't consider!

my two cents!

David

David Price
13-12-2008, 01:53
Guys - I'd also like to say that if you send me a public question on this (or any other forum) and then conflate my not answering with a *refusal* to answer (and then start commenting about this alleged refusal!), then I'm simply not going to join in at all. It's not fair. So either tip me off that you're posting a question to me, or ask me directly. Don't go posting nonsense that I've "refused" to answer, when I didn't even see/hear the question in the first place!

Steve Toy
13-12-2008, 03:53
David,

We as admin should have tipped you off earlier that one of our members had asked the question (or perhaps Howard should have asked you directly???) I for one did not for one minute infer an admission of guilt by any apparent silence.

The suggestion made in the OP (not by Howard directly) that magazines favour those who buy ad space should perhaps be directed at other magazines than Hi-fi World. It is not fair to tar all with the same brush and those with integrity may quite rightly lose the will to live when such integrity is doubted.

Please accept my apologies on behalf of AOS admin.

Marco
13-12-2008, 07:37
Yep, I agree.

I think Howard asked the question like he did because he thought perhaps David looked in most days so would therefore see his question and reply accordingly. In future he'll know that's not necessarily the case!

In future, if Howard or anyone else would like to ask David a question about the magazine then either PM him here or contact him through HFW. If it's a question which requires the attention of the forum then post it in the normal way and I will alert David accordingly. If he has time to answer he will do so.

However I must insist that questions are genuine and have no 'ulterior' motive behind them (I'm not suggesting Howard's question did). I think we've had enough of the old 'advertising-revenue-to-review-ratio' chestnut - it's been done to death and frankly I'm tired of reading the same old same old. David's answered the question very well and most thoroughly so let's put that one to bed now folks :)

David,

On another issue, you might like to ask ol' grumpy, Mr Keywood, to 'smile' more in future before he answers readers' letters with the words 'Denon DL-103' in it ;)

Marco.

Togil
13-12-2008, 07:52
David, regarding your comments about measurements where do these normally take place ?

I was curious about the fact that you measured the Quad 2805/2905 on the premises of a dealer. Your partially quite strange results have been quoted on many occasions but haven't been able to be replicated by others. Some say the 2805 sounds faster and is preferred ( myself included ) but that is another matter.

Neil McCauley
13-12-2008, 08:21
David, a most interesting response. I wanted an insight, and I got it. I'm appreciative. So ... thank you. Anyway – sorry to learn that your world is so fraught. That's a pity. As for initiating a subsequent dialogue with you via this forum, given the background you've described, I'll think long and hard about it first. Currently, it looks very doubtful indeed.

My reason for addressing my original question to you was because you were I felt the most approachable, least egotistic, certainly the most articulate and perhaps least po-faced of your peers. And when we last met – a long time ago – clearly not without humour.

Sincerely

Howard

Neil McCauley
13-12-2008, 08:34
I think Howard asked the question like he did because he thought perhaps David looked in most days so would therefore see his question and reply accordingly. .

Correct. It was, I thought, an entirely logical and reasonable conclusion to draw given the implication that for the first time (to my limited knowledge) there was a working relationship between an editor and a forum.

Neil McCauley
13-12-2008, 08:48
There are so many other, far more important factors which come before this in the chain - which everyone forgets about/doesn't consider!

David

Or in my case – until now – factors that I had no idea about. Regretfully, my clairvoyant powers are a bit below par currently.

John
13-12-2008, 08:57
For me HIFI World is the magazine I am most likely to buy I respect the reviews and have bought products on the strength of ther reviews and demo afterwards two such products are the Music First passive pre and the SAC KT88 Glowmaster (they do not advertise)
I am happy that David sometimes takes part in this forum and think if we get more dialogue going then this will further break down the us and them
Howard is one of the good guys in HIFI retail he goes out of is way to help people I have experienced this a few times myself with Howard and also HIFI World is my favourite magazine what I think they do better than anyone else is promote classics helping educate me and show a way for must of us to achieve great sounds at not silly money

David Price
13-12-2008, 09:41
Couple of points:

- thanks Howard, I take the question in the spirit it was intended.

- I do follow this forum, as you know, but I'm not here 24/7 and tend to 'come on and off' for periods - usually off during the first two weeks of a month as I'm snowed under with getting 50 or so editorial pages through.

- you have to remember that journalism is, as GK Chesterton said, "literature in a hurry", and often "hurry" is the operative word. Lots of decisions are taken to provide the path of least resistance to getting the result. This doesn't mean compromises as such, it's just that if we don't have to make life especially hard for ourselves, we won't! This goes for *all* journalists, on all the publications I've worked on. In hi-fi magazines, in practice this means that companies who are particularly good at the logistics of getting *working* review kit into us, in our time frame, and which suit all our technical criteria (i.e they don't blow up on the test bench), and which have all the documentation (press kit, prices, contacts), tend to get featured in the mag more than those who don't/won't/can't. This does NOT guarantee they'll get better reviews, simply that they're more likely to get reviewed. It is logistics, pure and simple - in the same way that employers tend to use people who can turn up for work over those who don't!

- the upshot is that manufacturers who are [a] able to do the above or [b] pay a PR who is able to do the above tend to be in mags more (not just us, but all mags of all types). To paraphrase someone, it is "logistics, logistics, logistics" - and we have so many logistical hassles behind the scenes that readers never get to hear about. That's why it amuses me/exasperates me to read on forums that advertising is the only thing going on in my imagination; what preoccupies my mind is simply this:

* is the product actually in production - not a prototype?
* is it available for purchase by the general public?
* is it actually available for review?
* can I get it in on time?
* is it going to work at all?
* is it going to measure reasonably?
* is the manufacturer going to supply me with a decent press release?

Once we've got passed all this (easier said than done with many products), then you're onto this...

* does the measured performance show it is "seriously" engineered?
* is it decently made/not likely to fall apart?
* how does it sound with my main reference system?
* how does it sound with a system tailored for it?
* how easy is it to tailor a system around it?
* does it have any obvious sonic weaknesses; if so what?
* does it have any obvious sonic strengths; if so what?
* how does it compare to price rivals?
* where does it sit in the great hi-fi scheme of things?

...and that's about it, really!

David

Mike
13-12-2008, 10:12
...and that's about it, really!

Oh!... is that all?

Sounds pretty easy really! <place large 'tongue in cheek' smiley here>

;)