View Full Version : Thorens TD124
Hi All,
I'm looking for a bit of advice on getting my TD124 Mk11 up and running correctly.
I'm planning on ordering new mushrooms, motor mounting bushes and belt from schopper. As the mushrooms don't look anything like the originals and I have no idea how old the belt a motor bushes are, probably original.
The deck came with a solid MDF plinth build out of 3 layers of 18mm MDF glued together with minimal cut out. I was planning on fitting some oak dome feet to this and the shelf will be spiked to the top of the TNT Flexi rack i'm in the process of building.
The TT is setup without the top platter and I have ordered a reso-mat for the main platter.
The TT is in very good condition and has been in storage not used for the last 10 years or so.
The TT runs silently but is slow to start from cold. and takes a few revolutions to get up to speed, and runs slightly slow according to the strobe.
I know these TT's are meant to get upto speed quickly.
Does this show a issue with the motor?
and if so is it possible to strip and rebuild them.
Thanks
Simon
Hello Simon,
The original Thorens 'mushrooms' were grey coloured. With time they will have perished, usually collapsing and becoming hard and brittle. Replacements from either Schopper or from other sources are now black in colour (though some replacements are made of a translucent silicone rubber) and are less compliant. This means the edge of the chassis will sit, or ride, a little higher than it would if the original grey mounts were used . It doesn't matter; just adjust the thumb-wheel adjusters so that the deck is level according to the built in spirit level.
A slow start-up time suggests the bearing oil has become thick and sluggish. It will need replacing. Replacement oil is available from Schopper and other sources.
If the deck continues to be slow in getting up to speed after a 're-lube', then the motor might need attention. Personally I would seek Schopper's advice on this, and although it is something one can do for oneself, it is not for the faint hearted. There are several articles on the 'web' on the refurbishment of Thorens motors.
I wouldn't fret unduly about the plinth. As long as it is reasonably substantial and rigid, it will do. Thorens 124s are not that fussy about the plinths in which they reside.
Regards
Barry, Thanks for the reply. I think the bearing is in pretty good condition and was running freely over Christmas while at home. I have since brought the tt back to Ireland with me in the original box. So I will have to re oil the bearing.
The tt is slow from cold but if you switch it off and let the platter stop spinning and then start the tt it spins up very quickly. But is still slightly slow according to the strobe.
So think the motor probably needs a clean.
I'll take some pictures and upload them to show the TT
Ammonite Audio
06-01-2012, 15:12
I've learnt a great deal about the TD124 since buying mine about 15 months ago. It came in a solid but scruffy plywood plinth and , like yours, without the top platter.
I am going to disagree with others regarding Schopper. Yes, they do know their stuff, but they also know how to charge the earth for everything. All the parts you need to refurbish the TD124 are available from a variety of suppliers around the world, at reasonable cost. I would buy a belt and new motor grommets from them, but not much else. For everything else, I recommend:
Lubrication kit: eBay seller service-td (http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/service-td/) who knows his stuff and will sell you the correct oil, felt pads, main bearing thrust pad etc for very little money. He (Joel) is not currently listing a TD124 service kit, but if you ask, he usually responds very quickly.
Motor Bearings, main bearing upgrades: eBay seller jec965 (http://myworld.ebay.com/jec965/?_trksid=p4340.l2559) . Jim Campbell produces some really lovely stuff, and I have his bronze main bearing upgrade, new main bearing oilite shells, motor uprade kit, Brazilian Cherry armboard, and solid Ortofon-style plinth. He also sells gel mushrooms, but if you use a solid plinth, the chassis can be bolted firmly to it and the mushrooms are really not needed.
Motor Rebuild: Martin Bastin rebuilt my motor, using the new parts supplied by Jim Campbell. Martin also set the motor coils in place using silicone sealant, since they do otherwise wobble as the magnetic field wobbles (if that makes sense). The motor now holds a much more consistent speed.
I would advise some caution with regard to mats. Since mine came without a top platter, I thought that it would be fine with an Achromat, but when a friend lent me his original top platter, it was clear that original is best. The hard rubber mat on the top platter looks most unpromising, but it's superb. Used and intact top platters are hard to come by and expensive (mine came from Germany), but new ones are available from Swissonor in Switzerland - they are not cheap, but probably worth it. Likewise the Swissonor non-magnetic ferrous platter.
Since your deck is quiet, it means you have a good idler wheel: look after it and only clean its rim with warm water and mild detergent, otherwise you can ruin it very quickly. TD124 idlers are very variable, so treasure yours.
I hope that's helpful.
Hugo Thanks for the post and the information. I do actually have the pop platter and mat, but when my father was using the TT he removed it and cleaned up the main platter, and used a ring mat which improved the sound.
I think the motor is ok but probably needs a good clean and reoil, possibly new bearing if they are sticky. but it does run very quietly, Just guessing that the original oil is now very thick and gloopy at low temperatures.
I am very lucky that we even have an original box and all the packing which made moving it less traumatic.
Ammonite Audio
06-01-2012, 16:32
Sounds like you have a really good TD124 there! Do look after the top platter, since they are easy to damage; also compare it to the other mat, because it will probably be better (you may need to replace the rubber pads on the main platter, if they are perished or missing).
You are probably right about the motor, but re-oiling it using Joel's kit may just be enough to sort it out. I did find that changing the main bearing oil made a big difference too, and Joel is one of the few people who give the correct instructions on how much oil to use. Incidentally, if the end plate of the main bearing is original, it is highly likely to be deformed and in need of replacement - Jim Campbell's bronze bearing end cap is way better than the original, but usefully it also seals properly, which means the correct amount of bearing oil will actually stay put.
A few other tips: do clean the belt pulleys using isopropyl alcohol, because they are very likely to be covered in rubber belt residue which causes noise. A new belt will be needed, but it may be a bit noisy, however a bit of talcum powder applied to its inner surface will quieten things down very nicely. If the deck still runs slow after 30 minutes or so, and continues to do so after the motor and main bearing are re-lubricated, then you will probably need to adjust the eddy current brake magnet to reduce the braking effect. Lastly, the suppressor capacitor on the switch may be old and knackered, in which case all you need is a new 0.01uF Class X or Y2 RFI capacitor, such as those sold by Maplin ( http://www.maplin.co.uk/class-y2-rfi-capacitors-98169 ).
Believe me - this is the last record player that you'll ever need!
Motor Bearings, main bearing upgrades: eBay seller jec965 (http://myworld.ebay.com/jec965/?_trksid=p4340.l2559) . Jim Campbell produces some really lovely stuff, and I have his bronze main bearing upgrade, new main bearing oilite shells, motor uprade kit, Brazilian Cherry armboard, and solid Ortofon-style plinth. He also sells gel mushrooms, but if you use a solid plinth, the chassis can be bolted firmly to it and the mushrooms are really not needed.
Do you know what Jims motor grommets are like compared to schopper ones?
and how do his mushrooms compare?
Sounds like you have a really good TD124 there! Do look after the top platter, since they are easy to damage; also compare it to the other mat, because it will probably be better (you may need to replace the rubber pads on the main platter, if they are perished or missing).
I know the rubber pads are missing, so I may have to source some new ones and give it a try. Is the top platter not a bit ringy?
Ammonite Audio
06-01-2012, 16:40
Do you know what Jims motor grommets are like compared to schopper ones?
and how do his mushrooms compare?
I had already replaced my motor grommets with the Schopper ones by the time I'd found Jim on eBay, so I don't know which is better. I'd go for whichever is cheaper!
Regarding the mushrooms, Jim's gel ones are expensive and he did advise me that with his solid plinth, they were not really necessary since the deck performs equally well with or without them. I should have taken his advice and saved the money, because he's absolutely correct, and I now have the deck clamped down tight onto the plinth. I'm sure that the Schopper ones are good, if you really need mushrooms.
Ammonite Audio
06-01-2012, 16:42
I know the rubber pads are missing, so I may have to source some new ones and give it a try. Is the top platter not a bit ringy?
Get a set of Jim Campbell's gel pads, rather than spend CHF 50 on the Schopper ones. The top platter may look like a cheap flan tin, but it's not at all ringy, since the rubber mat is attached at its centre; also the rubber pads on the platter damp it further.
Ok I have the TD124 out of the box and on the table its very clean some paint damage to the edge of the arm board, and slight bubbling under the platter.
The motor mount bushes look pretty shot so they are on the order list.
The main bearing spindle looks very clean as does the bottom of the bearing housing.
The only problem I have found so far is that the fine speed adjust link bar is slipping when the adjustment is turned.
It looks like the spring is stuck so no pressure is being applied to the link bar.
Does anyone know how this mechanism should work?
Ok I have the TD124 out of the box and on the table its very clean some paint damage to the edge of the arm board, and slight bubbling under the platter.
The motor mount bushes look pretty shot so they are on the order list.
The main bearing spindle looks very clean as does the bottom of the bearing housing.
The only problem I have found so far is that the fine speed adjust link bar is slipping when the adjustment is turned.
It looks like the spring is stuck so no pressure is being applied to the link bar.
Does anyone know how this mechanism should work?
You can apply more pressure on the fine speed adjust link bar, by slackening the grub screw of the sliding collar at the opposite end of the shaft of the speed adjustment knob, and moving it up to squeeze the 'wavy' spring washer. Then tighten up the grub screw.
You can apply more pressure on the fine speed adjust link bar, by slackening the grub screw of the sliding collar at the opposite end of the shaft of the speed adjustment knob, and moving it up to squeeze the 'wavy' spring washer. Then tighten up the grub screw.
Hi Barry, I have the sliding collar a small washer/spacer which sits inside the link bar and above that is another washer I think and a coil spring. but this coil spring is not exerting any pressure on the link bar.
I have moved the sliding collar up as much as I can and tightened it to no avail.
Hi Barry, I have the sliding collar a small washer/spacer which sits inside the link bar and above that is another washer I think and a coil spring. but this coil spring is not exerting any pressure on the link bar.
I have moved the sliding collar up as much as I can and tightened it to no avail.
The method I described was how I solved the same problem that you are having: the lack of friction between the fine-speed adjustment knob/shaft and the flat strip that operates the eddy-current damper.
It was some time ago, so I'll have a closer look at the assembly to remind myself, as my description might be inaccurate.
topoxforddoc
07-01-2012, 09:44
I had two TD124s - sold them when I got my Platine Verdier. Great TTs. I used squash balls cut in half as my rubber mushrooms - much cheaper and they come in different grades (blue, red, white and yellow dots depending on how hard/soft you want)
Does anyone know if you can get replacement spirit levels for the TD124. mine seems to have set, the bubble remains in the middle no matter the angle of the TT
Ammonite Audio
07-01-2012, 19:09
The spirit level on my TD124 looks OK but is way out of true, and I've not had the confidence to do anything about it. I know that some people have sourced new levels on eBay but I can't find anything out there at the moment.
The spirit level on my TD124 looks OK but is way out of true, and I've not had the confidence to do anything about it. I know that some people have sourced new levels on eBay but I can't find anything out there at the moment.
Yeah I did a quick google search and ebay and didn't find anything.
A few pictures of my 124
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/DSC00621.jpg
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/DSC00620.jpg
window and blanking plate for the stroke are out as I'm cleaning and painting them.
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/DSC00619.jpg
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/DSC00617.jpg
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/DSC00616.jpg
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/DSC00615.jpg
I think the bearing looks in pretty good condition have ordered a service kit from Joel, so I can replace the felt pads and re oil it.
Discovered tonight that the motor must have been worked on before as nuts/bolts are fitted not rivets.
Ammonite Audio
10-01-2012, 11:13
Discovered tonight that the motor must have been worked on before as nuts/bolts are fitted not rivets.
From the picture above, the motor looks to have its bottom bearing cap still attached by the original rivets. Are you referring to the bolts/nuts holding the top and bottom in place, in which case that's how they were originally made Whatever, it will almost certainly benefit from a re-lube job.
Dominic Harper
10-01-2012, 11:34
Hi Simon, I'm Natalie Dom's partner. We have had quite a few TD124s here and I have to say they are one of my favourite decks. I can tell you that yours looks very tidy and in good condition from the photo's. I am going to try and get A 124 myself and make it my project, but will have to save quite a few pennies first. It will be interesting to see how you get along with yours. I look forward to seeing your progress on this and reading your posts.
Natalie
From the picture above, the motor looks to have its bottom bearing cap still attached by the original rivets. Are you referring to the bolts/nuts holding the top and bottom in place, in which case that's how they were originally made Whatever, it will almost certainly benefit from a re-lube job.
Ah ok, I thought it was the main top and bottom motor covers were riveted on.
I stand corrected.
I have a full relube kit on order from Joel on ebay, so that should hopfully be here in a few days.
Hi Simon, I'm Natalie Dom's partner. We have had quite a few TD124s here and I have to say they are one of my favourite decks. I can tell you that yours looks very tidy and in good condition from the photo's. I am going to try and get A 124 myself and make it my project, but will have to save quite a few pennies first. It will be interesting to see how you get along with yours. I look forward to seeing your progress on this and reading your posts.
Natalie
Hi Natalie, thanks for your post, This is a very steep learning curve for me as it is my first TT, but the knowledge and help from people here and on other sites is invaluable.
I have been very lucky the 124 is in generally good condition it has been stored somewhere damp at some point in its life as the little strobe plate was rusty and the bright work is showing signs on some pitting although this had all been cleaned before I got the TT.
So next stage is to clean and relube the main bearing, idler, stepped pulley and motor. So I'll post some more pictures when I have it stripped.
I Have been having a look at the main bearing shaft this evening there is a small scratch running around the bearing about 10mm up from the bottom.
I can just about feel it with a finger nail. Is this something I need to polish out and if so how? Or am I being to picky?
Thanks
Simon
Just stripped the motor this evening and just want to check with you guys if the bottom of the motor shaft is ok?
It looks like there is quite a lot of wear from the bottom bush on the bearing shaft please see the image below:
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/IMAG0099.jpg
is this ok? and if not can the shaft be polished?
Thanks Simon
I am probably wrong on this, but since the motor spins at a fir rate of knots, the dull bit at the bottom is possibly the bit that never touches the bushings. In any case, a good soaking of the bushes on oil and careful reassembly should see you out and prolong the motor another forty five years or so before needing to be dismantled again :)
The main bearing will have very slight running marks on it by now, which won't be a problem as long as the bushes are kept lubricated (I think Thorens used to use a not-too-viscous turbine oil in their bearings). I've used good old EP80 with no ill effects whatsoever (I've "done" a few 124's but sadly never owned one, despite having the chance a few times in my career). The ball at the bottom of the spindle can easily acquire a "flat" and this isn't an issue 'cos it can be rotated a little to present a fresh contact surface.
Ammonite Audio
17-01-2012, 08:53
Just stripped the motor this evening and just want to check with you guys if the bottom of the motor shaft is ok?
It looks like there is quite a lot of wear from the bottom bush on the bearing shaft please see the image below:
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/IMAG0099.jpg
is this ok? and if not can the shaft be polished?
Thanks Simon
The motor shaft runs on a tiny ball, so the marks that you can see are probably not critical, unless there's quite a bit of play between the shaft and the oilite bearing. It probably only requires lubrication and a new ball and thrust pad - you can get the parts from Joel Boutreux via eBay (see his TD124 service kit at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOEL-S-SERVICE-SET-THORENS-TD-124-LAGER-MOTOR-/290657812677?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43ac8e40c5 ). If you do have a great deal of play in the oilite bearings, then these will need to be replaced, in which case I recommend Jim Campbell's motor kit ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-124-E50-Complete-Motor-Rebuild-Kit-/230724266149?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item35b83ce8a5 ) - he may sell the bearings on their own if asked.
I am probably wrong on this, but since the motor spins at a fir rate of knots, the dull bit at the bottom is possibly the bit that never touches the bushings. In any case, a good soaking of the bushes on oil and careful reassembly should see you out and prolong the motor another forty five years or so before needing to be dismantled again :)
The main bearing will have very slight running marks on it by now, which won't be a problem as long as the bushes are kept lubricated (I think Thorens used to use a not-too-viscous turbine oil in their bearings). I've used good old EP80 with no ill effects whatsoever (I've "done" a few 124's but sadly never owned one, despite having the chance a few times in my career). The ball at the bottom of the spindle can easily acquire a "flat" and this isn't an issue 'cos it can be rotated a little to present a fresh contact surface.
I was thinking the dull bit could sit outside of the bottom bush, I can't really feel a groove on the shaft so it can't be that bad.
If I want to try and polish it, is brasso ok to use?
The main bearing as in the pictures further up the thread is in pretty good condition with only very slight marks on it.
The motor shaft runs on a tiny ball, so the marks that you can see are probably not critical, unless there's quite a bit of play between the shaft and the oilite bearing. It probably only requires lubrication and a new ball and thrust pad - you can get the parts from Joel Boutreux via eBay (see his TD124 service kit at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOEL-S-SERVICE-SET-THORENS-TD-124-LAGER-MOTOR-/290657812677?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43ac8e40c5 ). If you do have a great deal of play in the oilite bearings, then these will need to be replaced, in which case I recommend Jim Campbell's motor kit ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-124-E50-Complete-Motor-Rebuild-Kit-/230724266149?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item35b83ce8a5 ) - he may sell the bearings on their own if asked.
I have Joel Boutreux service set which is very good, and have cleaned up the bronze bushes, which look ok. I haven't checked the play yet so I will do that this evening.
Ok so I've just out the motor back together. Now how quietly should this run?
At the moment with the top and bottom covers still loose. All I can hear is a whirring sound with my ear up close to the motor.
Reid Malenfant
18-01-2012, 19:41
Sounds about right, no motor synchronous motor is totally silent.
Ammonite Audio
18-01-2012, 21:06
Ok so I've just out the motor back together. Now how quietly should this run?
At the moment with the top and bottom covers still loose. All I can hear is a whirring sound with my ear up close to the motor.
That's normal.
Sounds about right, no motor synchronous motor is totally silent.
I thought that the Thorens motor is a shaded pole induction type
Reid Malenfant
18-01-2012, 21:14
I thought that the Thorens motor is a shaded pole induction type
Well it's an AC motor that runs off of the mains no? Lets not split hairs here.
Either way as we both stated it is normal to hear a whirring noise...
I have never owned a Thorens so I couldn't tell you what's under the hood ;)
As long as it's driven by AC it could have a phase shifting cap or be shaded pole (they do the same trick by making a rotating magnetic field) & either will make the same kind of whirring noise...
Whirr :D
Cleaned out the main bearing replaced the thrust pad and seal, oiled the idler wheel and stepped pullley and replaced the belt.
As soon as I fitted the belt and tested it the noise level noticeably increased. Think I may need to talk the inside of the belt.
Also playing with the magnet position I can get the Tt to run at the correct speed but can not get it to run fast even with the magnet pulled right away from the pulley.
With a quick set up and a old technics mm cartridge in the arm and the deck on the coffee table, its currently sounding quite flat, But I still need to replace the motor geommets, mushrooms and plinth feet. And mount the deck on a better rack. Also the phono stage on my croft is brand new and I'm sure it needs to burn in.
Ok So a quick update on the 124, I have been running the turntable a bit to let the motor bed in which seems to be working nicely as now after an hour or so I have to use the fine adjuster to slow the deck down a little bit.
I have only listened to it a little bit as I'm still waiting on bits to finish the rack. So to listen to it it has been sat on the coffee table. Which is why I think its still sounding a bit flat at present.
The new Geltec anti vibration mounts I ordered from RS arrived today so I have been busy replacing the motor mounts tonight as you can see in the pictures below.
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/IMAG0100.jpg
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/IMAG0101.jpg
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z462/s_ewings/IMAG0102.jpg
So Just need to talc the belt, fit new mushroom and oak domes to the bottom of the plinth, and fit the new cartridge and it should be finished.
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