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View Full Version : Garrard 401 Vs Technics 1210



Mike
30-11-2008, 16:02
I've hankered after a 401 for quite some time and having heard Marco's own 1210 I'm seriously interested in the opinions of owners of either turntable.

I'm particularly interested in hearing from anyone who owns, or has owned, both!

Cheers...

John
30-11-2008, 16:05
I think either will get you there I do not know the 1210 but the 401 on slate; well that can be pretty special. By the sounds from what Marco is saying it will go down to if you want a really accurate sound or something that throws music at you, but like you interested in people who have experience with both TT

Peter Stockwell
30-11-2008, 16:41
Shian,

Are you talking to me ?

I still have my Garrard; it's a work of art. But In the end I preferred the SL1210.

But, one of these days I've got to bring the 401 back out and do some real side by side comparisons. Many have suggested that Martin Bastin's favoured approach to reducing motor rumble, dropping the voltage, also reduces the torque too much. I need to try both with the 401 "full bore" again.

cheers

Primalsea
30-11-2008, 16:43
I'm unfamiliar with the Technics but I know from experience that 401's are heavily dependant not only on the plinth but what you sit them on. The platter mat also makes quite a difference as well.

As there is no standard plinth for 401's it likely that every one you hear will be different.

When comparing decks like these its always an idea to hear several variations.

Primalsea
30-11-2008, 16:51
Motor rumble is a real problem in theory on the 401's. If set up properly it's not a problem.
You have 2 main issues with 401's:

They must be clean and in full working order with good rubber on the idler wheel. Get you toothbrush, pipe cleaners and WD40 out and clean until no more dirt comes off the mechanism.

They have to be directly coupled to a heavy plinth.

Mike
30-11-2008, 16:53
Are you talking to me ?

Anyone and everyone! :)

Thanks for the reply Peter, I'd forgotten about you owning both TBH.

What would you say were the strengths/weaknesses of both decks?

Marco
30-11-2008, 17:17
Hi Mike,

Paul's absolutely right about Garrards and plinths - the same also applies to SP10s. I've heard Garrards and SP10s in various plinths, and also am intimately familiar with my modified 1210.

In general Garrards tend to have a fuller and deeper bass than any of the Technics decks when used in the plinths I've heard (slate or wood), which has the effect of giving a warmer 'tone' to the overall sound and a slightly more 'romantic' presentation.

I'm unsure though which form of bass is the more accurate. Of course much will depend on choice of arm or cartridge. It's very easy, IME, to get an overblown sound with a Garrard if the arm and cartridge are similarly bass-heavy. Also the top end of Garrards in my experience is a little less explicit and not as revealing as that on the Technics decks, all things elsewhere being equal.

Both Technics decks tend to have a tighter, 'harder' bass and are slightly more forward sounding through the midrange and top end. I would also say that there were more speed accurate, which in turn has a knock-on effect on pitch accuracy and timing, and therefore crucially on musical presentation. The Technics deck's overall presentation is a little more 'master tape' like and less 'cuddly' sounding, if you will.

Both the Garrard and the Technics decks are however superb examples of the turntable art and suitably mounted and set-up a world apart from any low-mass belt driven T/T.

A good person to ask about this is Peter (User34) as he is both intimately familiar with the Garrard and KAB1210. Other person to ask would be Guy Sergeant, whom I believe has extensive experience of Garrards and of course the SP10.

I hope this helps :)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
30-11-2008, 18:55
What would you say were the strengths/weaknesses of both decks?

Mike,

The Garrard sounds so organically whole, it's really seductive. The SL1210, with the KAB PSU, just stops and starts on a dime, musically speaking that is. It's very clear and clean. In a nutshell it's CD clarity with LP richness.

I found with my Bastined 401, which also had the Slatedeck bearing mod, was unlistenable with off centre records. Now this could be due to the low voltage approach favoured by Martin Bastin. The technics is much less bothered, if that makes any sense, and LPs I had rejected are now back in rotation!

If I had the space I had have them both up abd running but I had to choose. The teccie is a joy, functionally, to use. It's arguable that it has no soul compared with a Garrard, but it really get's the job done!

cheers

Clive
30-11-2008, 19:24
The low voltage approach for Garrards is garbage. I have a variac, I tried all sorts with the variac on my 301, full on 240V easily sounds best. If there is noise from the 50 year old TT that troubles then it should be tracked down and fixed. Lowering the voltage...you might as well run your car with one spark plug disconnected.

I find that Slate is way better than a CLD plinth and running with a parallel tracker I find the whole package very satisfying but not soporific. I think Marco likes quite a detailed and active sound, something you "have" to listen, profuse apologies if I'm mis-representing your preferences Marco. The differences between 1210 and 401/301, though less extreme, are a bit like OTL and SE valve amps. Which is "right" is immaterial, which you prefer is your choice.

John
30-11-2008, 19:40
Hi Mike
I think the only way you going to settle this for yourself is to hear the 401 on a slate amd then go for the one that you like the most.
If I could go back in time I would go out of my way to hear a mod 1210 but still very happy with the choices I made

Marco
30-11-2008, 20:17
I think Marco likes quite a detailed and active sound, something you "have" to listen, profuse apologies if I'm mis-representing your preferences Marco.


No, Clive, that's quite an accurate statement. There's more to it than that, but you're not far off! :)


The differences between 1210 and 401/301, though less extreme, are a bit like OTL and SE valve amps. Which is "right" is immaterial, which you prefer is your choice.

Good analogy; and your last sentence is spot on.

Marco.

Marco
30-11-2008, 21:12
The SL1210, with the KAB PSU, just stops and starts on a dime, musically speaking that is. It's very clear and clean. In a nutshell it's CD clarity with LP richness.


I like that description, Peter - it sums things up nicely! :)

Marco.

i_should_coco
30-11-2008, 22:17
Not a 1210 or 401, but I'm very happy with my slate SP10 (2x 50mm layers). When people ask, I always describe it as sounding like a CD player, in the best possible way. The sound is very solid and is as Marco says not remotely cuddly. The cartridge and arm add colour (not colouration, as far as I can tell).

SPS
30-11-2008, 22:41
At owston, marco's deck went on straight after will's slate 401/ spu combo

I'm not sure what else changed with it.. but will's was in the lead.. smoother and more extended and musical top end,
Will's also had a 'better' cartridge.
he had done quite a few mods to get it singing..

so we are not comparing eggs with eggs..
.. and just 'my' veiw of course

steve

Marco
30-11-2008, 22:51
Yep, Steve - agreed. I think the big difference was the cartridge and the 12" arm.

The new Jelco arm I've fitted to the 1210 has moved its performance on considerably, and Toppsy is sending me a low-output version of the cartridge (Ortofon SL-15) Will used at Owston. If I like it, I'll be buying it from him :)

Marco.

Cotlake
30-11-2008, 22:59
I second all Clive has said about voltage and CLD plinths. Full on power and Slate is IMHE the way to go for a Garrard. The dropping of voltage supply as advocated by Martin Bastin is very old hat. It was originally recommended by Martin Boardman back in the 1970's where he advocated introducing a lightbulb in series in the power supply to drop voltage, depending on bulb wattage, to as low as 180 VAC. I experimented this tweak and without doubt, full on mains is the way to go. Dropping the voltage makes setting speed much harder and variable and it knocks off the motor torque which results in a loss of PRAT, dynamics and most certainly speed and attack on notes. It makes sense when you think it through. The speed control system for a Garrard is a braking system, being that the control is holding the system back from run away. Consequently, the motor retains it's torque right at the edge of performance and the control holds it back to the right speed.

The benefits of Slate over CLD wood is well documented elsewhere and easily sourced.

Mats on Garrards continue to be a topic discussed. I suspect this is more about an obsolete TT being exchanged without an original mat than for any other reason. Again, IMHE, the original mat on its own workes best. I experimented with a Funk mat and that just muddied the mid range. I did this at a show so others including Peter Comeau heard the result and agreed.

Mike
30-11-2008, 23:03
Excellent stuff so far gentlmen.... More please! :)


Cheers...

Billericay Dickie
04-01-2009, 11:00
I second all Clive has said about voltage and CLD plinths. Full on power and Slate is IMHE the way to go for a Garrard. The dropping of voltage supply as advocated by Martin Bastin is very old hat. It was originally recommended by Martin Boardman back in the 1970's where he advocated introducing a lightbulb in series in the power supply to drop voltage, depending on bulb wattage, to as low as 180 VAC. I experimented this tweak and without doubt, full on mains is the way to go. Dropping the voltage makes setting speed much harder and variable and it knocks off the motor torque which results in a loss of PRAT, dynamics and most certainly speed and attack on notes. It makes sense when you think it through. The speed control system for a Garrard is a braking system, being that the control is holding the system back from run away. Consequently, the motor retains it's torque right at the edge of performance and the control holds it back to the right speed.

The benefits of Slate over CLD wood is well documented elsewhere and easily sourced.

Mats on Garrards continue to be a topic discussed. I suspect this is more about an obsolete TT being exchanged without an original mat than for any other reason. Again, IMHE, the original mat on its own workes best. I experimented with a Funk mat and that just muddied the mid range. I did this at a show so others including Peter Comeau heard the result and agreed.

False, ;) The lightbulb tweek doesn't lower the voltage, it lowers the current which in turn reduces the motor torque fyi. :grin:

Dave Cawley
04-01-2009, 11:42
It does reduce the voltage! try measuring it.

Dave

Billericay Dickie
04-01-2009, 11:53
^ I never did try it but it surely must depend whether the light bulb is wired in series or parallel to the mains supply?

Clive
04-01-2009, 11:55
^ I never did try it but it surely must depend whether the light bulb is wired in series or parallel to the mains supply?
It will have zero effect in parallel, if it does there's something seriously wrong with your mains!

Dave Cawley
04-01-2009, 12:14
It is in series!!!!!!!!!

NRG
04-01-2009, 13:26
False, ;) The lightbulb tweek doesn't lower the voltage, it lowers the current which in turn reduces the motor torque fyi. :grin:


It does both, current draw in the stator coils is driven by the applied voltage. Lowering the voltage drives less current in the coils and the magnetic field shrinks becoming weaker thus torque is reduced in the rotor.

Billericay Dickie
04-01-2009, 14:07
^ Thanks for this info, so long since I thought about 301 / 401 rumble cures. :(

Currently thinking about High voltage negligable currents to do with Stax Ear-Speaker energizers and the alternatives.

Anyone got any broken or non functional Stax Accessories or head-sets FS?

Mike
04-01-2009, 14:38
^so long since I thought about 301 / 401 rumble cures.

Good clean properly adjusted and correctly lubricated bearings (all of them), a good round idler wheel (no flat spots) and a nice healthy motor, to start with. Then the best plinth you can afford or make.

:)

For Stax stuff it might be worth contacting Howard Popeck, I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.

Billericay Dickie
04-01-2009, 15:33
Cheers Mike although I hope he may PM me but I think he has had enough of a life time with Stax?

Listen Carefully. :)

Tripmaster
18-01-2009, 20:41
Hi there

My dad has a Garrard 401 in the loft, it was refurbished about 15-20 years ago but its been up there for quite some time. I'm not sure if it still works due to the high temperatures in the summer...and lack of use!

Do you happen to know how much these turntables sell for in good condition as I might have a go at restoring it? Do you also know where I could source spare parts?

Thanks

Richard

Mike
18-01-2009, 20:50
Anything between £400 - £900, sometimes even a bit more!

Tripmaster
18-01-2009, 20:55
Anything between £400 - £900, sometimes even a bit more!

Really! thats nice to know:)

i_should_coco
18-01-2009, 20:57
Anything between £400 - £900, sometimes even a bit more!

Nononono... it's old scrap. Fortunately I specialise in the safe disposal of such and I wouldn't charge a penny. ;)

Tripmaster
18-01-2009, 21:01
Nononono... it's old scrap. Fortunately I specialise in the safe disposal of such and I wouldn't charge a penny. ;)

Im sure you could ;)

i_should_coco
18-01-2009, 21:05
Im sure you could ;)

In all seriousness, some of these are going for serious money, as Mike said. Get it out of the loft and see what sort of shape it's in.

Peter Stockwell
18-01-2009, 21:19
Just faced off a Slatedeck restored 401 in a bastin plinth and a KAB'd SL1210. Depends on what you like; 401 more forceful, teccie more nuanced. Heavy weight vs middleweight kind of thing.

Ali Tait
18-01-2009, 21:43
From what I've heard,the slatedeck plinth gives a huge boost to the performance of Garrards.I've heard both a 401 and an sp10 before and after fitting slate,and the difference is scary.

Tripmaster
18-01-2009, 22:10
I hope it still works

Marco
18-01-2009, 22:18
I agree about the slate thing, Ali, although excellent as it is, it didn't seem to give Nick's SP10 much of an advantage against my KAB 1210 at the Chester fest, and that was without the Jelco (with Nick's Hadcock) and using the same cartridge and system ;)

Interesting thoughts there, Peter! Having heard a few different Garrards in suitable plinths recently I would concur with you observations. I've also heard Steve Sheils' excellent TD124 in my system side-by-side with the Techy and it certainly didn't disgrace itself there either, again that was without the Jelco or my new 103SA. That's most of the 'classic references' I've heard now against the 1210 and it's passed the test with flying colours, which I guess gives us a good indicator of its true pedigree...

Any chance of a more detailed review in a separate thread (Strokes of Genius section)? It would act as a good reference for members :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
18-01-2009, 22:23
Perhaps so Marco,but were you using your mana table? I suspect this would narrow the gap considerably.

Marco
18-01-2009, 22:32
Indeed, which shows that it works! Just think what 40+ of the f*ckers do at home :eyebrows:

Oh, and I've still to get a Slatedeck plinth yet for the 1210... ;)

Marco.

Clive
19-01-2009, 08:31
In my view the 2 most important things that lift a Garrard that's in decent nick are:

1) Slate plinth, ideally from Slatedeck

2) 2 or 3 O-rings around the platter (non-strobe platter takes 3)

I did the O-ring thing a couple of weeks ago. I was gobsmacked by the improvement. Without it the sound seems slightly murky, rather like a slightly cloudy beer that still tastes fine. Sounds with the o-rings are more distinct, less cluttered and more liable to "come from nowhere". The sound is tight & "in control". There seems greater stability, the sort of thing you'd expect from a direct drive. These Garrard platters must ring, ring, ring. Some others have reported only subtle improvements with the O-rings, either my platter rings especially badly or the slate plinth and OBs in my system make this improvement really obvious.

SPS
19-01-2009, 09:22
. These Garrard platters must ring, ring, ring. Some others have reported only subtle improvements with the O-rings, either my platter rings especially badly or the slate plinth and OBs in my system make this improvement really obvious.

i have a garard grease 301 set up a ply plinth, and had my 124 on a nearly identical plinth, different tone arm same cart.. there was so much of a cloudy confusion in the 301 sound ...
but i'm sure with more work it would equal the 124..
levels of bass where identical
but i think you have a point, about speakers (and amps for that matter) showing up the finer good and bad points of a set up more readily
for me the 124 has the advantage that it performs well on a lesser ( cheaper) plinth than the 301/401. There is no(?) platter ring, and changing records is a doodle with the clutch system..
i like them.... so much.. i now have 3 ..
i'm just finishing a second plinth so i can do some armboard/ tonearm comparisons

Clive
19-01-2009, 09:35
It was a 124 that started me down the route of my current deck. I loved the 124 but came across a really well priced 301 first so I've continued that journey. I've heard the benefit that a 124 derives from a high mass plinth (loads of lead), whether slate helps a 124 in the way it does Garrards, I don't know.

My memory of the 124 is that music flows more than it does with Garrards. The Garrard have more punch. Ideally I'd like an EMT, 301, 124, SP10, all totally tweaked and optimised, oh a 1210 too to keep Marco happy. :)

pure sound
19-01-2009, 11:03
In my view the 2 most important things that lift a Garrard that's in decent nick are:

1) Slate plinth, ideally from Slatedeck

2) 2 or 3 O-rings around the platter (non-strobe platter takes 3)

I did the O-ring thing a couple of weeks ago. I was gobsmacked by the improvement. Without it the sound seems slightly murky, rather like a slightly cloudy beer that still tastes fine. Sounds with the o-rings are more distinct, less cluttered and more liable to "come from nowhere". The sound is tight & "in control". There seems greater stability, the sort of thing you'd expect from a direct drive. These Garrard platters must ring, ring, ring. Some others have reported only subtle improvements with the O-rings, either my platter rings especially badly or the slate plinth and OBs in my system make this improvement really obvious.

I had a 301 for a few years. The strobe platter did ring terribly and its effect could be ameliorated to some extent by the choice of mat although that could then introduce its own problems. I'd agree with the heavy plinth recommendation. However, charming as it was, it was never as satisfying to me as the SP10 is. It does still have a little too much of its own sound. I can certainly understand the appeal though, especially if someone is used to the imprecision of many suspended, belt driven decks.

anubisgrau
15-11-2009, 21:29
301 definitely ain't cheap!

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200402473523&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Rare Bird
15-11-2009, 23:22
Well i've never heard a bottom end quite like a properly sited '401' the closest i've been to it was my old Townshend Rock! but that's a totally different deck.. I much prefer the looks of the '401' over the '301'..I much prefer the bottom end of the '401' to the Thorens 'TD124' but i think the 'TD124' has a better top end than the '401'..Built quality on the Garrard is far better than the 'TD124'. SME manufactured a celebration Series 'V' with ''Garrard 401' printed down the armtube, i lusted for one but decided to stick with the Fidelity Research 'FR64S' instead..Hope that turns you onto the '401' over the 1210.

:eyebrows:

It's extremely important to have a proper plinth for your Garrard.Steer away from the very last '401' too

DSJR
16-11-2009, 12:34
I'll be ignored in this, but try a Spacedeck with sympathetic arm.. You'd be very surprised when comparing with a Garrard. If you want more "punch," get a heavy kit for it later.

The NAS decks, to me, sound cleaner than the Garrards, have no pitch or loading issues that I could hear and the soundstage is also wider and deeper, given a good pressing. Garrards (301/401) by comparison, seem to project the centre image more, but are narrower L to R IMO.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Spacedeck.jpg

chris@panteg
16-11-2009, 12:44
Hi Dave

Yes the NA Spacedeck is truly superb ' i had a dem one afternoon at Kevin Scot's , it was fitted with a SME 310 and music maker ' going into an Art Audio pre , the Border patrol 300b with MB psu and a pair of Living Voice OBX with outboard X/Over .

It was bloody marvelous ' as a system ' one of the best and most satisfying i have ever heard , and at its heart was the little spacedeck (£800 at the time)
i still wonder why i never bought one :scratch: ,instead going for the Voyd .5 .

DSJR
16-11-2009, 12:48
But did/do you enjoy the Void still? The Garrads are great at under £750 with plinth and cover, but at several hundred BEFORE restoration, I don't think so these days, as they're now collectors items. The Void will be too soon :)

chris@panteg
16-11-2009, 13:04
Yes i did love the Voyd .5 and it was special one off with the reference psu and mass damper's ' but it could be a frustrating deck ' the motors needed yearly adjustment as they became very noisy ' and the suspension also needed some tweaking but a truly great deck.

Unfortunately i rashly sold it back in 2005 (short of cash at the time) and downsized my system .

At the moment though i am more than happy with my 1210 and its getting better all the time , Dave's mat is a recent purchase and is by a country mile the best mat for the 1210 IMHO.

DSJR
16-11-2009, 21:19
I did the same thing selling my Mentor for £750 back in '95 - what a toss-pot. I'd give anything to have it now, as the Wave Mechanic supply and re-fettled arm with repaired Decca would have lifted it to a superb level.

Barry
16-11-2009, 23:28
.....I much prefer the bottom end of the '401' to the Thorens 'TD124' but I think the 'TD124' has a better top end than the '401'..Build quality on the Garrard is far better than the 'TD124'. .....

:eyebrows:

It's extremely important to have a proper plinth for your Garrard. Steer away from the very last '401' too

Would disagree with you on the first comment; almost the reverse in fact.

Agree with you on the second though.

Regards

chris@panteg
17-11-2009, 11:59
I did the same thing selling my Mentor for £750 back in '95 - what a toss-pot. I'd give anything to have it now, as the Wave Mechanic supply and re-fettled arm with repaired Decca would have lifted it to a superb level.

:eek: Dave i feel for you there ' ironically that's the deck that Paul (a friend i bought the voyd from) upgraded too ' he had the Wave psu too i seem to remember , fitted with (cant remember the arm) a Grasshopper cart about £3,000 'again there are several version's of this cart i think it was the most expensive though .

I didn't lose out on my Voyd ' sold it for a small profit ' but if i had now i would get an extra 1k for it :mental: ' as even standard one's are going for silly money on fleabay :scratch:.