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View Full Version : 1210 mods? There's a new kid on the block and his name is Dave



Marco
27-11-2008, 09:44
Guys,

This is a precursor to a report on my experiences at Dave Cawley's place on Monday (Sound Hi-fi - http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm) where we compared my KAB-modified SL-1210 to his own modified SL-1200 with Jelco SA-750D tonearm and Time Step PSU using the same cartridge (Denon DL-103R) in the same system. My thanks go to Dave and his good lady for their excellent hospitality and Dave's quite remarkable customer service.

The results were very interesting indeed - note my purchase of a Jelco tonearm since and the sale of my Cardas rewired, fluid damped Technics arm :)

I will go into detail and compare both arms above, the Time Step PSU to the KAB PS-1200, some new discoveries on mats and record clamps, step-up transformers, and just how good a modified 1210 is with a really top-notch tonearm, and all sorts of stuff which should make interesting reading for all Techy fans - save to say though that there is now no need to go to the States to buy modifications for Technics turntables.

Kevin (from KAB USA) is a top man and his 1210 modifications are fantastic but for folks in the UK there's a new kid on the block and his name is Dave... :cool:

More later!

Marco.

P.S I'm doing this to remind myself to write something otherwise it could go the way of the 'infamous' 1210 review which never quite materialised :eyebrows: ;)

Filterlab
27-11-2008, 14:04
Sounds interesting, the 1210 seems to be the turntable of choice for the tuningly minded audiophile. :)


P.S I'm doing this to remind myself to write something otherwise it could go the way of the 'infamous' 1210 review which never quite materialised :eyebrows: ;)

Tell me about it, have I managed to write a guide on computer based audio? Have I feck. Haven't even had time to do further banner designs.

John
27-11-2008, 15:18
I be interesting to hear the reports Marco
I am just wondering how you got on with Clive 301 a week ago and you thoughts against the 1210 as still yet to hear what a 1210 can really do
Is there anyone in the South England area with a Mod 1210 I could hear sometime
I am very happy with my own set up but fasinated to what a 1210 can really do

Mr. C
27-11-2008, 15:31
Question for the forum, how many owners of 1210's are on here and how many do you think are actually here in these Isles?

Marco
27-11-2008, 21:56
I don't know the exact numbers, Tony but there are a few on here and plenty on the other main forums - and the numbers are growing every day! Not to mention those who lurk and don't post and those who write into magazines about the 1210 and aren't a member of forums, and also the general public.

More and more people are finding out what a fantastic deck it is for the money as it outperforms many so-called 'hi-fi' decks, particularly when fully modified.

Why do you ask - are you planning on stocking them? :)

Marco.

Mr. C
28-11-2008, 09:06
Marco
I do like the deck, it can produce a very involving and musical sound without question.
I am merely curious as to how many were landed in the UK and are still in use.
I have 5 clients with them, all in various states of upgrade. All of the owners are over 40 years old and have large record collections (3K +) they also have other decks and cdp's too.
Would the number 150 sound about right for still used units?

Cheers Tony

Marco
28-11-2008, 10:02
I really don't know Tony - it's all pure guesswork. All I know is that over the last year in particular more and more people have been buying 1210s and ditching 'respected hi-fi decks', such as LP12s, Regas, Spacedecks, Garrards, etc.

You can't look at the main forums or the likes of HFW magazine without seeing a mention for the 1210. The Linn/Rega belt-drive indoctrination that has manifested itself rather odiously in the British psyche since the 70s is fading fast as people wake up and smell the coffee! ;)

Marco.

Filterlab
28-11-2008, 10:47
I would imagine a great many 1210s are in the UK, all those budding DJs out there have a couple of them and '1210' is a byword on the clubbing scene which is hardly a tiny number of people. The reputation it commands filters through various levels of interest and sticks in the minds of those who were once budding DJs & raving clubbers and are now grown up and sensible with disposable income. I had a sweatshirt years back with 'Technics' written across the front and '1210' on the sleeves - I got it from Cream in Sheffield whilst at an all-nighter (Boy George & Chris Lowe on the decks), I've never owned a 1210 but it was cool to be associated with the decks. :)

To be honest, if I was going to invest in a turntable (which I will eventually) then I'd probably pop the 1210 at the top of my list.

Cotlake
28-11-2008, 22:03
I really don't know Tony - it's all pure guesswork. All I know is that over the last year in particular more and more people have been buying 1210s and ditching 'respected hi-fi decks', such as LP12s, Regas, Spacedecks, Garrards, etc.Marco.

You say it's guesswork and then go onto expound that guesswork into something to be read as a fact. I very much doubt there are properly set up Garrards being ditched in favour of 1210's. The others you mention are belt drive so I can understand. Garrard idler drive users get the same benefits of direct drive users and many of us prefer the organic ID presentation over the sterile direct drive option. I acknowledge that a 1210 sounds good, but in my book, it's not as good as my Garrard.

All a matter of personal choice. Let's not get into making fundamental statements which really should be subject to personal taste.

Marco
28-11-2008, 22:11
Greg, the Garrard I was referring to was that belonging to Peter (User 34) who retired his (properly set-up) Bastin-plinthed 401 in favour of a KAB 1210, so it's factual :)

I agree though that Garrards are excellent T/Ts. Will's one at Owston was about the best I've heard. I may soon be purchasing a low-output version of the classic 1960s Ortofon SL-15 that was demonstrated to such excellent effect with that deck :smoking:

Toppsy is sending me one to try. Will's 12-inch arm though was stunning.

Marco.

P.S Full review of Jelco tonearm/PSUs, etc, tomorrow or Sunday - don't miss it!!

bong
29-11-2008, 00:02
P.S Full review of Jelco tonearm/PSUs, etc, tomorrow or Sunday - don't miss it!!

a true urban legend in the making ... until we see it! :lolsign:

Cotlake
29-11-2008, 21:33
Hi Marco,


Greg, the Garrard I was referring to was that belonging to Peter (User 34) who retired his (properly set-up) Bastin-plinthed 401 in favour of a KAB 1210, so it's factual :)

Just because you know of one person (with probably a misplaced perception of produced sound) who has converted, it doesn't make the conversion a point of fact for the majority. I remain with my original comment. The majority of 401 owners with properly set up rigs will not convert to a 1210, nor should they. IMHO, there's more to be had from a well tempered 401 than a properly set up 1210. Opinions will differ and I'll never knock those of you who prefer the Technics. I actually have some reservations about Martin Bastin plinths and 401 bearing conversions. Certainly they are good but in my book, not the best now to be had. It's a developmental thing. Products are now available that supersede Martin's stuff albeit what he produces was (and remains) good at the time of introduction but are now being bettered by later developments.

Best wishes,

Greg

Marco
29-11-2008, 21:57
That's absolutely fine, Greg. I know of other Garrard owners who've changed over to a KAB 1210, not just Peter. When suitably modified the 1210 (or an SP10) does things in certain areas that no Garrard I've heard so far can match, and there are certain things that Garrards are good at where the Technics decks are not as accomplished. I think it's important to stress that distinction though - there is a world of difference between a fully modified 1210 and a standard one. A standard 1210 wouldn't get anywhere near what a well-mounted properly set-up Garrard is capable of.

However, I do rate Garrards highly. Will's one I could easily live with if the over-richness in the bass and slightly veiled top end (a trait of all Garrards in my experience) could be ameliorated. I do prefer 301s to 401s, though, although mainly in an aesthetic sense. The 301 (without strobe markings) in a suitable plinth looks gorgeous, IMO. We really should get together sometime, listen to some tunes, have a few beers (mandatory!) and compare decks - I'm sure that would be an educational exercise for both of us :cool:

Marco.

Prince of Darkness
30-11-2008, 14:48
Will's one I could easily live with if the over-richness in the bass and slightly veiled top end (a trait of all Garrards in my experience) could be ameliorated.

I have never understood why people think this about Garrards. The bass is precise, detailed and seems to extend further than other decks (or C.D.), certainly not over-rich or exaggerated. As for the veiled treble, I have found the opposite to be true, tremendous detail and extension, without sibilance (unless it's on the recording).:scratch:

John
30-11-2008, 15:08
A Garrard on slate usually gets over the veiled treble and the bass is a legend

Marco
30-11-2008, 15:37
Yep, the slate plinth undoubtedly makes a big difference.

Kevin,

That's simply what I've heard with Garrards *in comparison* to a KAB 1210 or SP10. Direct-drive T/Ts have a cleaner, more 'accurate' sound whilst being just as musical, in my experience :)

Marco.

Filterlab
30-11-2008, 19:10
...one person (with probably a misplaced perception of produced sound) who has...

Greg, would you mind leaving unfounded insults out of your posts please, it goes against the ethos of the forum.

Many thanks.

Cotlake
30-11-2008, 22:17
Struth, if you think that is an insult, you've lived a very naive and sheltered life! I did say 'probably' and I didn't direct my comment at anyone specifically. Not everyone hears right you know. (Edit. I've just read and contributed to the garrard 401 vs 1210 thread and read what Peter has to say. His take on a 401 is clearly disadvantaged because he is listening to a 401 set up in a manner that can be readily bettered. His Martin Bastin deck is frankly out of date and there is better to be had today). Maybe a moderators step too far here. I don't consider I've breached the forums ethos, far from it. I've read 'Brave New World'. If you want to apply that kind of control, I'll be off pronto. Thank you.

Marco has trotted out the same stale old statements about bass and veiled treble as well as the comparison between Garrard 301 and 401. Most of these statements which have existed for years are myths once a Garrard is mounted properly. Personally I think a 401 works best. I also have a 301 oil bearing. I've listened to the grease bearing option which some prefer. Personally, I consider those who favour the grease option are more effected by snobery than fact. Check out the play in a grease bearing in comparison. If you're into retro, 301's are nice to look at. If you are into the sound, I'd expect most after comparison to vote for the 401. In addition I have fitted a modified Slatedeck bearing to mine which eradicates the sloppyness of the original bearings.

Everyone has a personal taste and preference. I like my deck. It's not perfect. In getting that detailed sound and prat, I've sacrificed the width of sound stage my Michell Gyrorbe gave me. I'm planning to experiment with arms to improve this. You have to pay mega bucks to get a TT that might do it all.

Marco
30-11-2008, 22:43
Marco has trotted out the same stale old statements about bass and veiled treble as well as the comparison between Garrard 301 and 401. Most of these statements which have existed for years are myths once a Garrard is mounted properly.


Greg, with respect all Marco has "trotted out" is what his ears have told him when he's heard a Garrard, in a Slatedeck plinth or otherwise. I am not making it up, nor am I 'misinformed'! Please stop trying to 'correct' people's opinions which differ from yours :)

I like Garrards, but they're 'heavier' sounding and not as 'crisp and clear' as a good SP10 or modified 1210, in my perfectly good opinion.

I think you need to learn that your opinion carries no more weight than mine on this subject, or anyone else with similar experience. People are quite legitimately entitled to think differently to you and be equally as correct, you know ;)

Marco.

John
30-11-2008, 22:48
The 401 is capable of good sound stage I heard Vic's at Trans Fi and that had a great soundstage but was going through Bastanis Atlas Open Baffle speakers and his arm so that would help out a lot with the soundstage.
An parallel tracking arm works really well with the 401

Marco
30-11-2008, 22:57
An parallel tracking arm works really well with the 401


Agreed, John. On Clive's it was an excellent combination and something you couldn't do with a 1210 :)

Marco.

Cotlake
30-11-2008, 23:50
Greg, with respect all Marco has "trotted out" is what his ears have told him when he's heard a Garrard, in a Slatedeck plinth or otherwise. I am not making it up, nor am I 'misinformed'! Please stop trying to 'correct' people's opinions which differ from yours :)

I think you need to learn that your opinion carries no more weight than mine on this subject, or anyone else with similar experience. People are quite legitimately entitled to think differently to you and be equally as correct, you know ;)

Marco.

Well that's a very ripe comment. It comes from the most opinionated (in terms of what gets written on this forum) contibutor here! I never suggested you were misinformed and you are in no position to request me to stop trying to change peoples opinions when your own contributions try to do that much of the time. Actually I personally have no interest in changing the opinions of others. They will think what they will think. My contribution is intended to throw some light on some of the mis-information that gets spread about.

Please do not be so condescending to suggest what I need to learn. Who are you to direct that? What you have written directed at me could easily have been written by another, directed at you. I'm not impressed. Then again it's your forum so perhaps you feel you have an authority here.......and after all that blarny about freedom of speech on AOL :( and it not being contolled by moderators in the same way other forums are. If it is freedom of speech, you'd not be posting directives on what a contributor needs to learn.

Once again I'm fast moving towards leaving this forum if that is how you want to control your place. I'm not into being controlled. Either it is free or it isn't. It's your choice. Just remember that what you claim to be your ethos needs to be your fandamental foundation. It's not right to state an ethos and then not to adhere to it, even if you do own the site.

Best wishes,

Greg

Filterlab
30-11-2008, 23:57
Struth, if you think that is an insult, you've lived a very naive and sheltered life! I did say 'probably' and I didn't direct my comment at anyone specifically.

It is an insult and you aimed it directly at Peter. I have not lived a naive and sheltered life Greg, all I asked is that you do not unfoundedly insult another forum member.

Thanks.

Marco
30-11-2008, 23:58
My contribution is intended to throw some light on some of the mis-information that gets spread about.


Yes, Greg, but what you consider as "misinformation" is simply people's perfectly valid opinion, which perhaps may be contrary to yours - that's the problem here!

For example: In my opinion, based on listening experience, Garrards are more bass-heavy and are less explicit sounding than an SP-10 or modified 1210. That is my genuine, perfectly valid opinion - it is not "misinformation". The same as when I mentioned that Peter preferred his KAB 1210 to his 401 and you implied (somewhat cheekily I might add) by stating he had a "misplaced perception of produced sound" that he was somehow listening wrongly or had reached an inaccurate conclusion. He hears what he hears and so therefore is just as 'right' as you.

Do you see the distinction here?

I let your comment to Peter slide but Rob had every right to pull you up on it.

No-one is trying to gag you or pull rank, certainly least of all me, but you have to realise that people have differing opinions on Garrards (and on hi-fi) and they are every bit as valid as yours. No offence, Greg, your views are welcome and valued but you are not the forum's self-appointed guru.

Marco.

John
01-12-2008, 07:12
Agreed, John. On Clive's it was an excellent combination and something you couldn't do with a 1210 :)

Marco.

I think you could use a parrell tracking arm on a 1210 the main issue you have is mounting it; so you need to make a mounting plate like in the Orgin live mod for the 1210. The other issue would be vibration but everything you said about the 1210 leads me to believe once modified this is not a issue

Steve Toy
01-12-2008, 15:11
I do think that in an attempt to cut out potential conflict and nastiness we can all too easily go to the other extreme and stifle healthy and robust debate. Everyone's opinion carries (equal) weight based on knowledge/experience rather than authority on this forum. I hope folks don't feel we as admin are pulling rank on this.

I think Greg's points about Peter's Garrard deck may well be valid and it may be worth Peter's while checking his out against another 401 with, say, a slate plinth. I was very impressed by at least one of the 401s I hear at Owston and this made me think that if I am to go down the vinyl route, a Garrard 401 should be on my shortlist of two decks... This isn't a competition to determine who is running the better deck, btw. Context and application is always the key along with enquiry, investigation, experimentation and above all, an open mind.

Marco
01-12-2008, 15:21
I think Greg's points about Peter's Garrard deck may well be valid and it may be worth Peter's while checking his out against another 401 with, say, a slate plinth.


So do I; but equally Peter's hard-thought decision to change to a KAB 1210 had nothing to do with his alleged "misplaced perception of produced sound" - a comment by Greg which in my opinion (and Rob's) was undeserved and should not have been made.

That said, we value everyone's opinions here - all are equal and valid. This is something that we would ask everyone to remember. If you don't agree with someone say so, but don't do it in such a way as to rubbish/demean the perfectly valid opinion of someone else. Peace and harmony, brothers, and most importantly, mutual respect always :)

Marco.

Clive
01-12-2008, 16:17
I'd like to make a point about 301, 401 and 1210 comparisons.

If a 1210 is relatively new and it hasn't been used for disco work then I would expect it's sound to be consistent across all examples (making allowance for improvements/tweaking).

Garrards are much less consistent. These are 40 to 50 year old decks, many have languished in cold & damp sheds or even skips. A good number have been well loved too. Garrards respond well to particular types plinth and certainly if wood is used then decoupling the arm can be a significant area to tweak. An airbearing makes life very easy here. There are some wonderful Garrards and there are some truly awful ones too. As for 301 vs 401, I find some tonal differences but much more similarity than differences. It may seem that 401's often sound better than 301's, if this is the case I suspect it's because the 401's are several years younger. As for constrained soundstage - this can be a system thing, there are ways to overcome this if it's perceived as a problem.

Filterlab
01-12-2008, 16:54
So do I; but equally Peter's hard-thought decision to change to a KAB 1210 had nothing to do with his alleged "misplaced perception of produced sound" - a comment by Greg which in my opinion (and Rob's) was undeserved and should not have been made.

That said, we value everyone's opinions here - all are equal and valid. This is something that we would ask everyone to remember. If you don't agree with someone say so, but don't do it in such a way as to rubbish/demean the perfectly valid opinion of someone else. Peace and harmony, brothers, and most importantly, mutual respect always :)

Marco.

Indeed, I thoroughly agree. In no way is Greg's opinion not valued - he clearly has an exceptional knowledge of hi-fi and makes a very valid contribution.

Marco
01-12-2008, 17:47
Ok, enough of the idle chit-chat, people, it’s time for the serious business now… ;)

I wrote earlier that I had recently visited Dave Cawley at Sound Hi-fi in Dartmouth to audition his Technics T/T modifications, namely the Time Step PSU, various arms available, of which to me the Jelco was of most interest, and his turntable mat, and compare them to my own KAB modifications. The outcome was most interesting...

I’ve used my KAB-modified Technics SL-1210 for some time now and after many hours of listening and comparing it to other well-regarded 'classic' decks such as various Garrards, SP10s and a very nice Thorens TD-124 (let’s not forget that the seeds for the current SL-1200 and 1210 were sown in the 1970s where the design brief was very much that of a hi-end turntable for the discerning Japanese audiophile market), and without doubt it has held its own against any of those revered 'classics'; indeed to my ears it is sonically superior (and also in terms of build quality) to 95% of turntables made today, so let there be no mistake - a fully 'maxed-out' SL-1200/1210 is a serious hi-end turntable.

However, like anything else even when you think something is fully 'sorted' a new discovery is often made which renders such previous thoughts redundant, and so it was with the Technics modification services of the knowledgeable and ever-helpful Mr Cawley of Sound Hi-fi in Dartmouth – a location which incidentally is beautiful and well worth the journey. The biscuits supplied, chez-Dave, are also rather good! Quite simply, for UK enthusiasts wanting the best performance from an SL-1200 or 1210 (and even SP10 – there is a superb custom-made PSU available) this is undoubtedly the place to have all Technics decks modified.

When I arrived Dave had set-up a system comprising of an SL-1200 fitted with his own mat (a specially commissioned version of the Herbie’s Way Excellent II), a Clearaudio record weight, Jelco SA-750D tonearm and Audio Technica OC-9 cartridge, through an Audio Technica step-up transformer (a now discontinued Ebay item, but rather good) into a Puresound A10 valve phono stage and Puresound A30 valve integrated amp. Speakers were £1000 Usher floorstanding designs; I’m unaware of the model number. He played some female vocal music, which the name of the artist escapes me, and it sounded rather good. I’m not particularly a big fan of the OC-9, considering it somewhat lightweight and 'hi-fi' sounding, although smooth and refined, compared to my usual Denon DL-103R (or Pro) which has an altogether meatier and more rounded balance.

We listened to music in this system for a while. I had brought a few of my own records down, some Stevie Ray Vaughan, Eleanor McEvoy, Bar Kays, Nat King Cole, John Coltrane, Led Zeppelin, Beatles and various other material. I had brought with me my fully KAB-modified 1210, fitted with an SDS Isoplatmat and two Technics rubber mats (necessary in order to achieve correct VTA with the 103R cartridge), a Denon DL-103R, and Auditorium 23 step-up transformer. Having become accustomed to the presentation of Dave’s system, I decided that the first change to make was to try my cartridge on Dave’s deck fitted to the Jelco arm. I selected 'Tin Pan Alley' from Stevie Ray Vaughan and we sat back and listened. The sound was very good indeed and easily as good or if not better than I was used to with my 1210. Dave also seemed impressed with the 103R, commenting that it was "rather good for the money" and not what he had expected. I of course agreed!

During the course of listening to this very familiar music I could hear that the sound was an improvement over what I’m used to, allowing as best as possible for the different equipment and speakers, but at this stage was unsure as to what exactly was causing the improvement. Therefore the next thing we did was swap the DL-103R over to my 1210 and set-up my deck in the same system, but this time we used the Auditorium 23 instead of the AT step-up transformer. We played the same music again and listened. The sound was pretty good; Dave seemed quite impressed, but for me it lacked the effortless musical 'enticement' of before. I was not being drawn into the music in quite the same way. However I thought I knew what the main culprit was. Therefore what I done was remove the mats on my deck and replaced them with Dave’s mat and his Clearaudio record weight and played the same track again.

Ah, now that was better! Even though in doing so VTA was less than optimal I could clearly hear the effect Dave’s mat and record weight had on the presentation of the music. Gone was a slightly diffuse, uninteresting sound, devoid of real musical merit and the soulful expressiveness Stevie Ray Vaughan’s Blues guitar playing has in spades, and in its place was a vibrant, addictive sound full of colour and emotion – it was extremely addictive and *made* you want to listen… This was much more like it! What I discovered here was that the mats I had been using were adding coloration that adversely affected the deck’s presentation, and also records were not being properly coupled to the platter. You need one mat only (if your tonearm allows the correct setting of VTA with your cartridge of choice that way) and a clamp or record weight to properly couple the record to the platter and provide the correct interface, otherwise with multiple mats the effect is severely diluted. However, this is also liable to be system dependant, but I suspect that in most systems the former arrangement will outperform the latter.

I have since concluded that the Herbie’s mat (or Dave’s specially commissioned version) is the best I’ve heard on the 1210. The SDS and Achromat may be better in some systems with different turntables but after my experience at Dave’s it seems to me that both possess a sonic signature (a forwardness and lack of entertaining 'musicality') that’s not to my liking with the 1210, and this includes the Technics rubber mats. The difference with Dave’s mat compared to the standard 3mm Herbie’s is that a section of the white outer foam has been trimmed away to fit the exact circumference of the 1210’s platter, thereby ensuring that the full surface of the record is supported and no excess mat overlaps the edge, as is the case with the standard Herbie’s when used on a 1210. When a clamp or record weight is used the result then is a firm coupling of the record to the mat, and thus the mat to the platter – this is exactly what is wanted for best audio performance.

This was good news because it now meant that I could press my long abandoned KAB screw-on record clamp into service, which I paid good money for but that I had rarely used simply because with three mats on the go there was insufficient space to accommodate it on the spindle. I can now thoroughly recommend the KAB threaded record clamp modification, as in conjunction with Dave’s mat it improves the performance of the 1210 by a significant margin. All I needed to make this discovery was to obtain an arm which allowed me to achieve the correct VTA with my Denon cartridge! I would therefore not hesitate to recommend Dave’s mat for all users of 1200s and 1210s – it’s a cracker!

I must pop out now to visit a friend, but there is much more to come later on with the Jelco arm vs. the KAB modified Technics arm, PSUs, step-ups, and my impressions on Guy’s superb valve MM phonostage and the equally superb Usher loudspeakers. Don’t miss it!!

Remind me, Dave, what models were the Ushers? :)

Laters,
Marco.

John
01-12-2008, 18:20
The Ushers create great music, nice write up so far Marco

pure sound
01-12-2008, 22:43
Nice write up Marco, I also had some pretty fine biscuits (& coffee) when I visited!

Marco
02-12-2008, 00:00
Cheers guys! Just in. There'll be lots more on this subject tomorrow :)

Marco.

bong
02-12-2008, 00:50
great write up, marco. interesting observations about the difference that mats made; i'm noticing some differences too while switching around with the technics stock mat and the achromat.

Dave Cawley
02-12-2008, 08:37
Hi Marco

Thanks for the nice review, looking forward to part II and III ! The Loudspeakers are the Usher V-604, they are quite large floorstanders that retail at £1,150.00 and are on my site at www.soundhifi.com/usherspeakers.html If they were better known I'm sure they would be £1,995.00? . Sound Hi Fi have a promotion on the V-604's in an attempt to get them better known, and until Christmas £925 would bag you a pair! But only to Art of Sound members who joined before today, no exceptions.....

We also love the Puresound A30 amp and P10 phonostage, ask us about them? Valve amplifiers that work properly, we know, we tested them, they are lovely. See how we test by looking here www.soundhifi.com/test.html My old Grandmother used to say "Son, you only get what you pay for" never a truer word with the proliferation of cheap and nasty Chinese amplifiers, we had them, we rejected them. Puresound are good, very good and come with freshly ground coffee..... Even Hi Fi+ agree! Oh, and we always do good deals for friends and fellow list members.


Regards

Dave

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
02-12-2008, 09:18
Hi Marco

Nice write up there, only wish I could be as eloquent as you, unfortunately never will be.

Just few comments on the Garrard 401 front, I have used one in the recent past, mine I put into a Cain & Cain Plinth, never heard of one I hear you say. Well they are well worth researching and sourcing, I directly compared it with a mates Slate Deck plinthed one. Surprisingly we both preferred the Cain & Cain. Not much in it but the more controlled bass and more fluid presentation of the music overall won the day.

Having said that the Lenco is certainly on a par with the 401 but still no match for the Feickert Twin which is my main TT.

Keep up the great reports, look forward to them

Andy - SDDW

P.S. Ignor the tonearm, it was something the was passed onto me for comments I still have a 12" version unused at home. Not bad but not great either - Something different really, worked quite well with a Dynavector DV20x
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/Garrard1.jpg

Marco
02-12-2008, 10:18
great write up, marco. interesting observations about the difference that mats made; i'm noticing some differences too while switching around with the technics stock mat and the achromat.

Hi Kelvin,

Nice one :)

Without doubt you'll notice differences with mats in terms of both the effect they have on VTA when used to support an arm/cartridge combination which requires the use of extra mats on a turntable to achieve the correct setting, and the sonic signature they impart on the music as a result - every one is different (in terms of sonic signature) as are combinations of different ones.

One should remember that the effect I obtained with mats and reported here won't necessarily be repeatable in other systems. There are simply too many variables involved for there to be a 'one size fits all' mat solution for every T/T in every system. This also applies to my rather negative comments about the SDS and Achromat. In no way are these bad mats in the right system - the key as always is in the correct application.

However, what is quite clear is that in my experience so far (and I've experimented extensively with mats of various types), Dave's, used in conjunction with a suitable clamp or weight, is one of the best solutions I've heard with a 1210 and as such would not hesitate to recommend it. I think the way it snugly fits the 1210's platter is instrumental to its success, and of course the materials that are used in the mat itself.

You've got some fun to come experimenting with your own mats!

Marco.

Marco
02-12-2008, 10:42
Hi Marco

Nice write up there, only wish I could be as eloquent as you, unfortunately never will be.

Just few comments on the Garrard 401 front, I have used one in the recent past, mine I put into a Cain & Cain Plinth, never heard of one I hear you say. Well they are well worth researching and sourcing, I directly compared it with a mates Slate Deck plinthed one. Surprisingly we both preferred the Cain & Cain. Not much in it but the more controlled bass and more fluid presentation of the music overall won the day.

Having said that the Lenco is certainly on a par with the 401 but still no match for the Feickert Twin which is my main TT.

Keep up the great reports, look forward to them.


Hi Andy,

Thanks, mate. I just do my thing! :)

The Cain & Cain plinth looks very interesting. I've heard of the company before but never took much notice of their products. It might be one to bear in mind when I arrange to have a plinth made for my 1210.

I love the Slatedeck plinths and think they improve the performance of T/Ts considerably; however some people have reported to me that wood, providing that it is solid and inert, is a better material for a turntable plinth as apparently slate is more resonant and therefore less ideal as a plinth. However, I know nothing about this as I haven't done the comparison. I'm sure Darren will have his own thoughts, as will the proponents of the wooden plinth route ;)

As always, I remain open-minded and receptive to the advice of those who are more knowledgeable in this area than me. What's the consensus of opinion amongst our resident cognoscenti?

Dave, once I fit my 'review head' and have a cup of coffee part II and III will duly be posted! :smoking:

Marco.

bong
02-12-2008, 12:10
Hi Kelvin,

You've got some fun to come experimenting with your own mats!


most definitely, i just need to receive them in the post sometime soon and i'm set. however, i do recall you waxing lyrical about the use of suitable clamps to help interface with the mat. by the time i've got my mats stacked up, there isn't much of a spindle left. would putting a clamp on whatever little bit is protruding help, or does the clamp need to get a nice firm grip to be of proper use?

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
02-12-2008, 14:24
Hi Marco

The Cain & Cain speakers are something special, I have lived with the Abby for a long time and only sold them due to not having enough space to keep them. They use a full range Fostex unit in I think a Voigt loaded cabinet, very nice and one of the most musical speakers I have heard. No crossovers easy room placement too.

Just checked the web site and it looks like they no longer do the plinth which is a shame, though they may do it to order. Well worth a listen too. Thet were made from a single solid piece of Beech or Birch, with 2 levels of De- Coupling and you got 2 arm boards as well.

http://www.lovecraftdesigns.com/index.html (http://www.lovecraftdesigns.com/index.html)

As you say, always remain open minded. I am also big enough to admit when I'm wrong too. A case in point I have alway had my Dali's firing across the width of the room with plenty of space to the rear and sides of the speakers ( they are Di-Poles ) Last weekend I have had a major change round with the room and they now fire down the long axis of the room and are much closer to the rear and side walls. What a difference, more solid and fluid bass, which has gained in depth and scale but the whole sound from top to bottom is now more cohesive and musical. Great all round improvement. The big difference is I now don't have a rear wall just behind the listening position, I am about half way down the room, well worth the effort. :)


Andy - SDDW

John
02-12-2008, 15:23
Never heard the Cain and Cain stuff but when I was thinking about getting the Cain and Cain plinth alongside the slate for the 401 I was close to getting.
From what I gather the thickness of the slate can make a difference to the sound
I notice Emporium is selling the Cain and Cain plinth on ebay
At some point I must hear the Cain and Cain speakers but think I will be frustrated with the bass on them as cannot imagine them doing kick drums

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
02-12-2008, 18:32
Hi John

You would be right with the comment that the thickness of the slate is a factor in the effectiveness of the plinth as a whole, not sure what the C & C plinth will go for on ebay, but I sold mine with my excellent 401 and tonearm including a spare 301 plinth for over a grand to a guy in the USA who was absolutely ecstatic about it.

The C & C speakers do go surprisingly low but in reality do need a sub, tried mine with a REL Stentor but the C & C Bailey sub worked best at a lot less cost.

Given the chance I would be happy to live with the Abby's and sub again no probs.


Andy - SDDW

Dave Cawley
02-12-2008, 19:22
Come on guys, this is a SL-1200 thread??

Dave

Beechwoods
02-12-2008, 19:30
AOS is all about thread creep!

Marco
02-12-2008, 19:39
It's my fault because I haven't written Part II yet!

Today turned out to be a bit busier than I thought, sorry chaps. I should get it done tomorrow :)

Marco.

Mike
02-12-2008, 19:45
Come on guys, this is a SL-1200 thread??

Dave

And there's a bloody thread for 401 Vs 1210 type chat! :lolsign:

Primalsea
02-12-2008, 19:47
AOS is all about thread creep!

That sounds like something painful to do with worms

Filterlab
02-12-2008, 20:10
AOS is all about thread creep!

Is that the plant that they've been trying to clear off the Olympic site?

:lol:

Marco
02-12-2008, 22:00
It's creepy, man... :uhho:

Marco.

MartinT
02-12-2008, 23:54
for folks in the UK there's a new kid on the block and his name is Dave

Well now, this really presents me with a dilemma :-(

My order for a modified SL-1210 has been with KAB for, well, ages. His reply to my most recent message didn't even reassure me with a shipment date as he is still 'awaiting parts'. I'm getting a little fed up with the excuses despite having been patient.

So what do I do? Cancel the KAB order? Can Sound Hi-Fi sell me a fully modded up 1210 or would I have to provide the donor deck? I'm really in a quandary.

Marco
03-12-2008, 00:10
Hi Martin,

Mmm...tricky one!

I would now normally recommend Dave, however since you've already placed your order with KAB I would hold out a little longer. I know Kevin well and how he operates and he will definitely come through in the end, providing you with a superb turntable.

Would you like me to have a word with him on your behalf and see if I can chase things up a bit? I can't promise anything but I'll see what I can do :)

Once you get your deck, however, I'm sure you'll find Dave useful for further tweaks down the line that are exclusive to him ;)

Marco.

MartinT
03-12-2008, 00:21
Hi Marco
Thanks for the offer. Before you do that, I might just have a chat with Dave on the phone and see what he could do for me. I'm less worried about price and more about the quality of work and delivery schedule. Also I have to admit that Jelco arm looks mighty tempting...

Marco
03-12-2008, 00:24
No worries, Martin. The decision is yours. Kevin's quality of work is superlative, but Dave will certainly be able to help out if necessary and provide a solution to an equally high standard. If you fancy the Jelco, though, I can thoroughly recommend it! You'll see how much I rate it tomorrow when I finish the review :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
03-12-2008, 01:02
I've had a couple of quotes from Dave Cawley and with the phono stage they come in around the £1500 mark - with the Jelco option! The Marco setup is slightly higher but this is going to come in a lot less than the KAB option either way, especially as we are now only getting $1.45/£1 compared to $2 approx before. By the time you factor in shipping, import duties etc. the KAB option is going to be nearly double.

I also think there is every chance sterling will fall even lower by the time your order is shipped and you are finally invoiced.

Marco
03-12-2008, 10:23
I've had a couple of quotes from Dave Cawley and with the phono stage they come in around the £1500 mark...


Which phono stage is this - the P10?

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
03-12-2008, 12:44
Bloody hell, didn't realise there was shit fight while I was gone :lolsign: . Greg, if you are reading I only just read the ensuing posts after the remarks about my cloth ears :lol:. That's ok, I didn't take it personally.

I fully accept that I ought to retry my Garrard, full on without the Bastin PSU. I doubt I'd go as far as a slate plinth. I can't afford to pour even more money into reord decks. BTW my motor unit was fully serviced by Slatedeck about a year ago and received their tight bearing mod.

All that said, I still prefer the unfussiness of the SL1210, but I'd probably prefer a Honda Accord to something that has more character. Certain things always annoyed me about my 401, notable the long term speed drift. It would take hours for the speed to stabilize, and even then it would require less and less voltage to run at a stable speed.

cheers

John
03-12-2008, 15:50
Which phono stage is this - the P10?

Marco.

At that price might be 30r in which case a big thumbs up; it was the best I heard in its price range and just got a great review from Hifi World

Marco
03-12-2008, 16:10
Hi John,

I've found out Steve was referring to the new A.N.T audio MC phono stage designed by Alex Nikitin (a recently joined trade member here) priced at £395, which I've heard and is excellent, as is the MM version - more on this later!

Marco.

Alex Nikitin
03-12-2008, 16:51
I've found out Steve was referring to the new A.N.T audio MC phono stage designed by Alex Nikitin (a recently joined trade member here) priced at £395, which I've heard and is excellent, as is the MM version - more on this later!

Marco.

Marco, thank you! However there is a small correction in order - MC Special Edition is £495.

Cheers

Alex

Steve Toy
03-12-2008, 16:51
Isn't it £495?

Marco
03-12-2008, 17:15
I stand corrected :)

Jelco vs. modifed Technics arm review being written as we speak - should be posted in about half an hour!

Marco.

Marco
03-12-2008, 18:22
Ok folks, back to the review…

We’ve now established that Dave’s T/T mat is a no-brainer for an SL-1200 or 1210, so what about his other main Technics turntable modifications, namely the Jelco SA-750D tonearm? (Many others are available but for the purpose of this review I will use the Jelco as a valid example), and of course his Time Step external PSU.

As most here know, I have happily used the standard Technics MK5G titanium-constructed arm, albeit a Cardas-rewired, silicon fluid-damped version from KAB, with additional brass counterweight balance and Audio Technica LH-18 headshell, on my 1210 since I got it around a year ago and I have enjoyed music greatly on it. From experience of using many other arms on various turntables in the past I would confidently say, thus modified, it is easily as good as any sub-£700 tonearm currently available and certainly superior to a standard Rega (and also some modified ones), which are often cited by so-called 'experts' as being a viable upgrade over the high quality Technics tonearm supplied with SL-1200s and 1210s.

Quite frankly, this is nonsense. The Technics tonearm has high quality bearings and a level of construction quality and ease of use that Rega arms could only dream of. It is also more neutral sounding with less overt 'character'. The fact that its individual retail price is so inexpensive has got nothing whatsoever to do with any lack of quality and everything to do with economies of scale and mass production techniques refined down to a fine art by a huge, long-established and respected, worldwide hi-fi manufacturer. Therefore with those facts established, why would I change it for something else?

Well, aside from issues of achieving correct VTA with a Denon 103R cartridge and the ensuing mat shenanigans necessary in order to rescue the situation (which was a large motivating factor) the other reason was there was always a niggling feeling at the back of my mind that the Technics arm, even when fully modified, was somehow holding the deck back and that the 1210 turntable would never be taken seriously by the 'cognoscenti' unless a 'hi-end' tonearm was fitted.

To that end, I had looked into obtaining one of the well-known and highly regarded s-shaped tonearms (I like s-shaped detachable headshell arms best for a number of reasons) from the likes of Audio Technica, Ortofon, Ikeda and EMT. However some of the prices quoted were ridiculous and I felt that one was paying for a 'name' more than anything else, which is a fact considering that Jelco make and have made tonearms for a number of respected hi-end manufacturers including Linn (they made the original Ittok – how much would it have cost as a Jelco item, I wonder, sans Linn badge?), and currently the likes of the Feickert DFA-105 used on the Feickert Twin T/T reviewed in the October issue of Hi-fi News, with the tonearm priced individually at £710. It is effectively the same arm as the Jelco SA-750D sold by Dave for £375. I rest my case. I want to pay only for out-and-out performance, not badges or snob value!

Therefore taking all of the above into account I decided to purchase said Jelco from Dave and have it fitted to my modified 1210. A word here on Dave’s exceptional customer service: I arrived at his establishment at 2pm in the afternoon, and it wasn’t until around 6pm in the evening, after much music listening, chin-stroking, tea drinking and biscuit munching, that I decided to buy the arm. I asked if I could have it fitted and he replied with a smile "What now?" He not only duly fitted the arm in front of me in the most fastidious manner, ensuring that the arm itself was fitted correctly but that every available adjustment parameter was attended to correctly. Giving me so much of his time late on a Monday evening to ensure I was satisfied is quite phenomenal service in my book!

Fitting a new tonearm to a KAB-modified deck with rewired arm is a more laborious task than simply removing the standard tonearm on a 1210 because of the existing more complicated wiring structure. The whole underneath of the deck must be dismantled in its entirety and then reassembled so it is therefore not a job for the fainthearted. It’s fiddly, time-consuming and requires much patience, fortunately a quality Dave has in spades! So at around 9pm with the arm successfully fitted (after encountering a few 'challenges' along the way which were duly defeated) I sat back and listened…

With the deck set-up in the same system as before I selected 'Knucklehead' from the Bar-Kays album 'Soulfinger' – a classic 1960s instrumental Soul album – and immediately could hear a different, much improved, presentation of this music which I’m intimately familiar with. This is funky music with a capital 'F'; the sort that if you were so inclined would have you up on the floor dancing around like a demented teenager. I opted somewhat sensibly not to select that option but rather instead to sit back and admire the highly captivating way the music was being reproduced with more vigour, rhythmic intensity, and plain old fun-factor than I had ever heard before.

This is a well-recorded album to all intents and purposes (an analogue 'audiophile' re-mastered version of the 1965 original) but it is also sonically challenging in the way 1960s recordings often are with the typical production valves of that era duly applied, exhibiting a rather mid-forward balance but capturing every nuance of the often piercing and uncomfortable to listen to sound of trumpet and saxophone. This is however how it’s meant to be and the excellent all-analogue recording (with tape hiss prominent underneath the music) reveals the interplay of the various instruments in all their intensity. There is no dynamic range-limiting, rounding-off, sonically compromised digital malarkey here!

With the modified Technics arm the funkiness of this track isn’t captured quite so effectively, or indeed dramatically, and thus the music is rendered with less joie de vivre in a somewhat more sober and analytical fashion; the emphasis being more on the delineation of musical notes and their harmonic structure than the band simply getting their 'mojo' together and laying down some grooves. In this respect the modified Technics arm appeared to play music with its 'suit' on and shirt buttoned up to the neck, whereas the Jelco would perhaps be similarly 'attired', achieving the same finesse, but with the top buttons of its 'shirt' unbuttoned and loose, appearing more willing to get down and dirty.

There is also a marked difference in the tonality of both tonearms. To my ears, the Technics arm modified or otherwise has more prominent midrange emphasis that on occasions with some recordings results in music possessing a 'brightly-lit' quality, which can introduce a slightly unpleasant forwardness that is uncomfortable on the ear. It however offers superb detail retrieval with a clean and precise top end and excellent deep, tuneful and rhythmic bass. However as good as the modified Technics arm is in those respects the Jelco quite clearly trumps it in every area of tonality with bass that reaches even deeper (especially when fluid-damped – an option also available with the Jelco) and that has more impact. The midrange doesn’t suffer from the somewhat 'brightly-lit' quality of the modified Technics arm, being more open and extended and thus appearing less flustered with 'busy' or more challenging types of music. There is an effortless quality about the Jelco – the way in which it goes about its business and just gets the job done without fuss that is highly addictive and somewhat rare in arms of this price. I suspect that the quality of its bearings is a factor here. Good as they are in the Technics arm, Jelco manufacture and produce their own high quality bearings, and sonically it shows. I also suspect that the armtube is better damped and possesses altogether different resonance characteristics which I feel are responsible for the audible midrange peak in the Technics arm – an effect which I suspect would show up on an accelerometer or other similar measurement apparatus.

To conclude then, there is no doubt that rewiring the standard tonearm on an SL-1200 or 1210 with high quality Cardas cable and applying silicon fluid damping elevates its performance quite considerably – this is definitely worth doing if one cannot afford the cost of a more 'exotic' tonearm, and results obtained will IMO be better than using any of the mid-priced arms currently on the market (Regas and such like), particularly if one is using a cartridge such as a DL-103.

However, there is without doubt sufficient mileage to be had by installing something that in real terms is of even better quality, and the Jelco is a fine example of such a breed. Having done the comparison, I would put the SA-750D firmly into SME IV category (or similar), falling just short of what its big brother, the SME V, is capable of. For a fraction of the price of either of those illustrious arms the Jelco therefore offers quite phenomenal value for money, delivering a performance that can compete with the best available. It may not have an audiophile badge but its sound is sure to please those who buy with their ears, not their wallets, and who covet the superb reproduction of music more than prestige value. As such, I would recommend the Jelco SA-750D, available from Sound Hi-fi without hesitation to all discerning music lovers.

Right, chaps, I’m off for some dinner now and well deserved glass of wine (or three) :cheers:

Full review of the remaining items tomorrow (Time Step PSU versus KAB PS-1200, etc).

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
03-12-2008, 18:38
Having done the comparison, I would put the SA-750D firmly into SME IV category (or similar), falling just short of what its big brother, the SME V, is capable of. For a fraction of the price of either of those illustrious arms the Jelco therefore offers quite phenomenal value for money,

ouf! I always wanted a SME IV for my Garrard (scratches chin, gets out calculator, etc ...)

cheers

John
03-12-2008, 18:41
Nice review and sounds like a real bargin. It is really great when you find something that increases you musical enjoyment Kind of what I got from the Terminator that replaced my SME IV silver wired

John
03-12-2008, 18:46
ouf! I always wanted a SME IV for my Garrard (scratches chin, get's out calculator, etc ...)

cheers

Read Clive review I think for the Garrard this is the way to go

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0408/trans_fi_terminator_tonearm.htm

Dave Cawley
03-12-2008, 20:31
..Feickert DFA-105 used on the Feickert Twin T/T reviewed in the October issue of Hi-fi News, with the tonearm priced individually at £710. It is effectively the same arm as the Jelco SA-750D sold by Dave for £375.

In fact this is the cheaper non-damped version!

The SA-250ST with the Audio Technica AT-OC9ML/II is quite a performer too, the next issue of Hi Fi World will review that. Are they as good as an SME IV? well they certainly both outperform the M2-9. No doubt. But on my SP-10 I use a SME V, but then the whole system is very, very expensive, and never was there a better illustration of diminishing returns!

I had a long chat with David Price yesterday, he made me think. I have all the toys in the toy shop, but I don't need to make a living out of Hi Fi. That is why I get stuff on approval, but only stock about 15% of what goes through my hands.

I'm in Miami next week giving a paper to the US Department of Commerce, it's a tough job....... But I'll be on the net with my tiny Apple whatsit!

Regards

Dave

Clive
03-12-2008, 20:56
All this talk of SME IV and V - I really struggle nowadays with pivoted arms. I didn't realise the distortion I was hearing until I got used to a tangential arm. Sorry but the SME V is no benchmark for me! These long arms, even 9 inch ones sound resonant too....

Dave Cawley
03-12-2008, 21:23
All this talk of SME IV and V - I really struggle nowadays with pivoted arms. I didn't realise the distortion I was hearing until I got used to a tangential arm. Sorry but the SME V is no benchmark for me! These long arms, even 9 inch ones sound resonant too....


Tell me about your experience with the SME V, what system was it in. How did it sound?

Regards

Dave

Marco
03-12-2008, 21:32
I agree with your observations, Clive, however as we've discussed before, I think it comes down to context, and the sum of a system being down to many parts.

You know I liked your parallel tracking arm very much in terms of its sonic performance but I personally wouldn't want to go down that route considering the type of cartridges I like and my love of detachable headshells - they're just so much easier to work with! I also dig 'retro', so classic s-shaped (pivoted) arms are the ones for me :)

Dave,

Nice one. I'll comment more later on. Right now I'm off to have a play with a classic Ortofon MC cartridge from the 1960s - an SL-15, shown here, which I've heard sound phenomenal in another system:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ortofon-SL15-MC-Pick-up_W0QQitemZ290258900557QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item29 0258900557&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C24 0%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

If I like it, I shall add it to my collection! :smoking:

Marco.

Clive
03-12-2008, 21:54
Tell me about your experience with the SME V, what system was it in. How did it sound?

Regards

Dave
Lot's of decks and systems, I used to like the SMEs along with the better OLs (I have 2 here very under-used now) and other arms but asking me how any pivoted arm I hear now sounds is rather like asking me how different varieties of corned beef taste vs prime beef steak. Ok, I'm being a bit extreme in my comparisons.....but pivoted arms can't get around the errors they introduce unless they do a Garrard Zero 100 but then they introduce all sorts of other issues.

For sure as Marco says we can't simply disassociate one component from the rest of a system. Indeed it would be interesting to try a decent tangential arm on a 1210 feeding a P-P OLT amp - it would probably remove all your fillings in 5 seconds given that they all have clean and fast characteristics.

Marco
03-12-2008, 21:55
Indeed it would be interesting to try a decent tangential arm on a 1210 feeding a P-P OLT amp


Did you mean OTL? ;)

Marco.

P.S No offence, but in an aesthetic sense I find most tangential arms as ugly as sin. The affordable ones have a 'constructed in a bike shed' look which doesn't appeal to my design sensibilities. It's definitely something to be listened to and not admired, IMO, but I guess that's the whole point... :)

Filterlab
03-12-2008, 22:14
It's definitely something to be listened to and not admired, IMO, but I guess that's the whole point... :)

There's certainly many components in the world that fall under that category.

Ahem....
http://remixmag.com/mag/apogee-miniDAC.gif

Clive
03-12-2008, 22:17
Did you mean OTL? ;)

Marco.

P.S No offence, but in an aesthetic sense I find most tangential arms as ugly as sin. The affordable ones have a 'constructed in a bike shed' look which doesn't appeal to my design sensibilities. It's definitely something to be listened to and not admired, IMO, but I guess that's the whole point... :)
Yes dyslexic typing....the most common typing error is transposition of 2 adjacent characters.

Looks of kit are interesting to think about. This could apply to women too....something that gives you great pleasure over a long time starts to look right or correct. Then the previously desired shape is associated with a pretender than didn't deliver so much pleasure. Marco, do you look at a belt drive mechanism, even a beautifully made one, and feel anything but shortchanged?

Mike
03-12-2008, 22:21
Ah!.... Clever! :)

MartinT
03-12-2008, 22:26
Dave will certainly be able to help out if necessary

I made the decision and cancelled the KAB order, especially in view of the further delays, ever plunging Pound v Dollar rate and duty to pay on arrival.

I have now asked Sound Hi-Fi for a quote. Might as well go for the Jelco seeing as you liked it so much :)

On the greater discussion on arms, I've had good and bad ones. A Helius Aureus I once had was decidedly shabby in construction and had sticking pivots. The SME II and III were both superbly made but had compromises in sound. The SME IV was simply superb in every way. The Michell TecnoArm(A) is nicely finished and sounds pretty good, but is hard to setup and align. I still lust after my friend's Dynavector DV-505 and his Grace was not too shabby either. I also have an Audiocraft unipivot sitting in a box somewhere.

David Price
04-12-2008, 00:58
Well yes - but let's not forget that tangential arms have their problems too - as always it's not necessarily what you do, but how you do it...

It's nice to scrabble for certainties (multi pivots bad, unis good, belt drives bad, idlers good, etc.) but IMHO the rub is how well the different approaches are implemented!

John
04-12-2008, 06:12
Yes its all about how it sounds in the end getting it right can be tricky and there are many paths to follow further adding to the confusion

Marco
04-12-2008, 08:43
Clive,


Looks of kit are interesting to think about. This could apply to women too....something that gives you great pleasure over a long time starts to look right or correct. Then the previously desired shape is associated with a pretender than didn't deliver so much pleasure.


"Something"?? If I referred to my wife as a "something" she'd duly drop "something" suitably heavy on my head!

"The previously desired shape" - haha, love it! I usually find that plenty of 'horizontal jogging' (and hoovering!) helps them keep their shape nicely :lol:


Marco, do you look at a belt drive mechanism, even a beautifully made one, and feel anything but shortchanged?


I suspect she feels exactly the same way when inspecting my 'mechanism'! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
04-12-2008, 08:52
Martin,


I made the decision and cancelled the KAB order, especially in view of the further delays, ever plunging Pound v Dollar rate and duty to pay on arrival.


Fair enough, it makes sense. Did Kevin take the news well? :)


I have now asked Sound Hi-Fi for a quote. Might as well go for the Jelco seeing as you liked it so much


I doubt you'll regret it. It's a top-notch arm at a bargain-basement price, which I usually find is a win-win situation. Make sure you go for the fluid damping model (SA 750D) - it makes all the difference.

Keep us posted!

Marco.

Marco
04-12-2008, 08:57
Hi David,


It's nice to scrabble for certainties (multi pivots bad, unis good, belt drives bad, idlers good, etc.) but IMHO the rub is how well the different approaches are implemented!

How very true! I construct my system by embracing the good points of different technologies and marrying them together as a whole; that way you tend to get the best of (all) worlds! ;)

There are no absolutes in hi-fi - one must forever remain open-minded towards new (or old) ideas and approaches and embrace them when appropriate.

Marco.

John
04-12-2008, 09:33
Hi David,


There are no absolutes in hi-fi - one must forever remain open-minded towards new (or old) ideas and approaches and embrace them when appropriate.

Marco.

So True

Clive
04-12-2008, 09:49
Hi David,

How very true! I construct my system by embracing the good points of different technologies and marrying them together as a whole; that way you tend to get the best of (all) worlds! ;)

There are no absolutes in hi-fi - one must forever remain open-minded towards new (or old) ideas and approaches and embrace them when appropriate.

Marco.
Absolutely true and this doesn't prevent me forming opinions about what works best. The key point is about being open minded, I'm always prepared to develop or even change my opinions.

Filterlab
04-12-2008, 09:53
There are no absolutes in hi-fi - one must forever remain open-minded towards new (or old) ideas and approaches and embrace them when appropriate.

Superbly put my friend, couldn't agree more. :)

Marco
04-12-2008, 10:24
Cheers, chaps. I find that absolutists often never achieve true satisfaction in hi-fi, and it's their inflexible mindset that's usually to blame...

Marco.

Primalsea
04-12-2008, 12:48
Does that mean that you're not absolutely sure about your 1210 then?

Steve Toy
04-12-2008, 12:52
Marco will never be absolutely sure about his 1210. If was already absolutely sure then this thread would not exist!

Marco
04-12-2008, 13:26
LOL. Chaps, let me assure you that I'm absolutely sure about the 1210, but one is always fine-tuning until perfection (or at least my version of it) is obtained ;)

Marco.

P.S I think I've just discovered an *amazing* cartridge...

MartinT
04-12-2008, 13:40
Did Kevin take the news well?

He was remarkably affable about it, actually. I almost wondered whether he enjoys what he does but can't be bothered with customer orders.


I doubt you'll regret it. It's a top-notch arm at a bargain-basement price, which I usually find is a win-win situation. Make sure you go for the fluid damping model (SA 750D) - it makes all the difference

Ah now, I spoke to Dave about that and he reckons the 250 is the better arm - it certainly lacks the headshell joint which I think used to compromised the SME Series II. Not as sexy looking as the 750 but it's the sound quality I'm after.

So, order placed and I might even get it by Christmas. Pressie for me!

Marco
04-12-2008, 14:04
Hi Martin,

Nice one - I hope you have lots of fun with it :)

Regarding arms, I think much depends on what cartridge you're using and as a result the old synergy thing. Personally, I've not found detachable headshells to cause much if any (audible) signal degradation providing the more important parts of the arm (overall engineering, bearings, etc) are of the requisite quality - this is far more important than any heashell joint in my experience. There are too many highly regarded classic tonearms around with detachable headshells for it to be a real issue - plus the Jap audiophiles love them to bits, and we know how discerning they generally are.

Factor in the huge convenience factor of a detachable headshell arm and the fact that one can swap between a variety of cartridges quickly and easily and for me it's a no-brainer!

I've not done the comparison between the 250 and 750D, obviously Dave has, so I'll accept his judgement without necessarily agreeing with it until I heard the comparison myself. I wonder why then the 750D is more expensive? (Jelco SA-250ST £299.00 - Jelco SA-750D £375.00). Both of course are minus the cost of mounting hardware, tonearm cable, and V.A.T.

All I know is that at the end of the evening we compared his SP10 fitted with an SME V and Shelter 901 (I think?) cartridge through a very expensive Marantz/Usher system, to my modified 1210 fitted with the SA-750D and Denon DL-103R through the much less expensive system I described earlier, playing the same music, and we both concluded that there wasn't much in it - certainly between the two decks, which is quite frankly amazing!

And remember if we're talking tonearms that was an SME V v. the 750D, so it can't be too shabby...

I actually preferred my deck in the 'smaller' system, which surprised me. It just goes to show how vigorously the laws of diminishing returns kick in at this level! Of course there were some nice glowing bottles used in the Puresound-based system, too... ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
04-12-2008, 15:09
Ah well, what I actually said was, for something like a Denon 103 the 750D and the heavy AT headshell was probably the best. And for a AT-OC9ML/II the 250 was better. But then I would have gone on to say for a Shelter 501 a SME V would be better. And then I would have said.....

You get the picture I'm sure!

Regards

Dave

MartinT
04-12-2008, 15:20
Ah well, what I actually said was

Sorry Dave, I was paraphrasing a bit heavily there. I will certainly put the Grado Prestige Gold in the Jelco to start with (it has a sound I'm very familiar with). However, I'm bound to try the Denon DL-160 at some point. And my treasured Dynavector 20A too. The latter is so good it even worked in an SME III - a potential mismatch from hell.

Marco
04-12-2008, 16:38
All is clear now, Dave :)

Incidentally, does the SA-750D come with any kind of tonearm cable as standard or must one purchase the 'hi-end' stuff I got seperately?

Marco.

Dave Cawley
04-12-2008, 19:10
They both come without a cable.

Dave

Marco
04-12-2008, 19:11
Okay dokey, so my earlier statement was correct. I just wanted to make sure :)

Marco.

tfarney
12-12-2008, 13:42
I'm just curious, guys...why the 1210? It would appear that other than the 6 gram anti-skate upper limit, it is functionally identical to its predecessors. I would think if anything in the Technics line would appeal to audiophiles, it would be 1200MK4 with its 78 rpm speed and removable RCAs and ground plugs. Or the newest model in the series with its oxygen-free wire.

Tim

Marco
12-12-2008, 18:23
It's the newest model most of into modifying us use, Tim. I have a MK5G :)

As for, "Why the 1210"? Where do I start? :eyebrows:

I suggest you read the zillions of posts written on the subject all over the forum!

Oh, including the first one in this thread ;)

Marco.

tfarney
13-12-2008, 04:49
It's the newest model most of into modifying us use, Tim. I have a MK5G :)

As for, "Why the 1210"? Where do I start? :eyebrows:

I suggest you read the zillions of posts written on the subject all over the forum!

Oh, including the first one in this thread ;)

Marco.

I'm not shopping, Marco. I'm afraid I'm still dedicated to the convenience of bits, but I have this friend who is a vinyl nut and the other night I said, so what do you know about these Technics 1210 turntables?

Boy did I get an earful.

Tim

Peter Stockwell
13-12-2008, 16:40
I'm not shopping, Marco. I'm afraid I'm still dedicated to the convenience of bits, but I have this friend who is a vinyl nut and the other night I said, so what do you know about these Technics 1210 turntables?

Boy did I get an earful.

Tim

An earful of what ?

Marco
13-12-2008, 16:42
Verbal diarrhoea? Only kidding!!! :lolsign:

Marco.

John
13-12-2008, 16:57
Marco what happened to the review of the Atlas speakers I was looking forward to that

Marco
13-12-2008, 17:23
Hi John,

I've decided to wait until Clive brings his speakers round to mine (or Ian Walker's) before doing the review. This should be happening sometime over the Christmas holidays. That way I can be more objective and thorough :)

I've still got to complete the review of my experience at Dave's and describe the effect of his 1210 PSU compared to that of the KAB PS-1200 and also mention about Guy's superlative P10 phonostage. This should hopefully be ready by the beginning of the week.

Marco.

John
13-12-2008, 17:59
cool thanks for the update Marco
Interested in Dave PSU compaired to the KAB PS-1200 and can see which way you will go with the P10 phonostage

anubisgrau
21-12-2008, 11:28
it seems that the KAB PSU could be seriously upgraded, i believe it's a rather basic product. it will be interesting to hear a comparison between Dave PSU and KAB.

second - is jelco arm a 1:1 replacement for technics? do you need do make a new cut for it?

third - re mats: how come that no one has damped a platter first before going into experimenting with the mats? it really doesn't have to be thick sheets of car damping stuff, these days you can find dampening spray that would make a thin foil that wouldn't interfere with fine tolerances under the platter. a friend used it on an old thorens deck whose platter used to ring like a church bell with a great success...

anubisgrau
21-12-2008, 17:38
OK i will carry on thinking loud

i believe that a DIY-ed fluid damper can be made for peanuts, it won't look as elegant and integrated as the stock one but it will do the same job. the most significant job will be to find an optimum viscosity of oil, imho, the rest doesn't look complicated at all.

next, it just struck me this afternoon that further damping of 1210 arm can be done also very cheaply. i remember that a local manufacturer of bearing-less arm a la WTA had a problem with ringing tube and we solved it quite easily applying an extremely tight termo skin on it. we settled on one that shrinks just to one third of its original diameter. i think i will try what this brings before i go towards silicone damping.

next, a termo skin gives a very good opportunity for very easy and simple toneram leads change. once you have a good cable, you can just leave the stock cable in the arm intact and place a new within a termoskin, from a lower side of the arm, completely bypassing an existing headshell connectors - straight into the cartridge. one connection less in a critical signal path. as you will going to treat a termo skin with heat, it's important that it doesn't have a plastic insulation - a favourite arm cable of mine anyway has a silk/copper skin. furthermore, i don't think it will be necesasary to go all the way with a new cable into the armbase and fiddle with that - i would just lead it through a gap between the plinth and the cover (some blutac here and there will fix it). i would certainly rather try to lead the same cable all the way up to the MC trannies (maybe i shouldn't write here that i would solder it directly to the primary leads but i will do it), putting it into a termoskin to avoid accidental damage.

so this is my small plan for long winter nights (today is btw the longest night in 2009! so maybe i should start now:)). nuding denon 103 comes last!

John
24-12-2008, 14:23
I just be reading this thread in Audiogon around 1210 KAB modified turntable performance level
It seems fair and balanced but as yet still have not heard a 1210 mod T/T to say
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1230067975

Marco
24-12-2008, 14:44
Yep, John, it seems pretty fair. I'm not sure though how many of the decks mentioned have been fully 'pimped' in terms of having all the KAB mods done, not to mention the other things I've carried out over and above those, all of which makes a significant difference to the deck's performance :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
29-12-2008, 17:14
I am honoured this post is named after me.....

I have bowed to pressure and introduced the strobe disabler. In fact Martin gets it for free!!!!

More details here www.SL-1200-MK2.com

Regards

Dave

Marco
29-12-2008, 17:20
Link isn't working, Dave ;)

Marco.

Mike
29-12-2008, 17:31
Link isn't working, Dave ;)

Marco.

Yes it is. ;)

Beechwoods
29-12-2008, 17:36
Link tested and fully effective from Bristol too :)

Services like this make me wish I had a 1210. I've heard good reports of the Jelco SA-750D on a Lenco L75/78 and it looks the business on an older TT.

Marco
29-12-2008, 18:22
Well all I'm getting is a long delay then the message:


Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage

Most likely causes:
You are not connected to the Internet.
The website is encountering problems.
There might be a typing error in the address.

What you can try:
Check your Internet connection. Try visiting another website to make sure you are connected.

Retype the address.

Go back to the previous page.

More information

This problem can be caused by a variety of issues, including:

Internet connectivity has been lost.
The website is temporarily unavailable.
The Domain Name Server (DNS) is not reachable.
The Domain Name Server (DNS) does not have a listing for the website's domain.


None of the above apply so it must be some browser incompatibility thing. I can view the rest of Dave's website ok... That's much good though if I can't see the particular bit he's linking to!

Marco.

MartinT
29-12-2008, 18:40
In fact Martin gets it for free!!!!

Woo hoo! I knew it was worth the wait!

Marco
29-12-2008, 18:51
Excellent news, Martin. All you need now is the threaded record clamp and you'll be in the 'A' list 1210 club ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
29-12-2008, 18:52
The lovely Lenco 75 is here www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html Thanks to Mario Cortolezzis for the image.

Dave

Marco
29-12-2008, 18:57
Any idea why I can't view your earlier link, Dave? Or does anyone else know? :scratch:

Marco.

P.S What's the Lenco 75 got to do with the above link to the Jelco arms? :confused:

Dave Cawley
29-12-2008, 19:03
Keep up Marco!! See message 110?

MartinT
29-12-2008, 19:05
All you need now is the threaded record clamp and you'll be in the 'A' list 1210 club

I'll have enough room for experimentation with my plethora of cartridges to try out. I also have a newly purchased Bruil aluminium weight to try out, so I'll not worry about the threaded clamp just yet.

Marco
29-12-2008, 19:11
Dave, I see what you mean but what you wrote below indicates that there is a picture of the Lenco 75 somewhere in the link when there isn't! :)


The lovely Lenco 75 is here [No it isn't - me.] www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html Thanks to Mario Cortolezzis for the image.


Marco.

Dave Cawley
29-12-2008, 19:16
Marco, are you communicating for 'the other side' ? The Lenco 78 and the Jelco are there !!

Dave

Beechwoods
29-12-2008, 19:17
P.S What's the Lenco 75 got to do with the above link to the Jelco arms? :confused:

Dave's Jelco page features an L78 (the automatic version of the L75, if you'll pardon the gernalisation :)) and fantastic it looks too!

I'd checked out your page before Dave, but not spotted the Lenco pic. Funnily enough it was an L78 owner on Lenco Lovers who'd tried out a Jelco 750, which turned me on to it...

Marco
29-12-2008, 19:22
Beechy, there is no mention whatsoever of the Lenco on the specific link Dave supplied above - it just shows the Jelco arms and cables; that's why it doesn't make sense. If Dave had said "The lovely Jelco SA-750D is here", rather than "The lovely Lenco 75" then that would've been fine!

Btw, any idea why I can't view his earlier link showing the strobe disabler mod? Everyone else seems to be able to see it but I can't, although I can see the contents of the other link to the Jelco arms no problem...

Marco.

Beechwoods
29-12-2008, 19:41
Hmm... second picture down under the SA-750D tonearm pic.
http://www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html

The black TT with shiny 'arm is an L78 :confused:

Try the other link all in lowercase and see if that makes any difference to your luck with that one...
http://www.sl-1200-mk2.com/

If it still doesn't work I'd suspect a DNS issue. I use Open DNS
https://www.opendns.com/smb/start/

Follow the instructions to update your DNS settings and see if that sorts you out :)

Marco
29-12-2008, 19:55
Hmm... second picture down under the SA-750D tonearm pic.
http://www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html


LOL. This is mad - on my computer the second picture down, on that link, under the SA-750D, is a picture of the Jelco SA-250ST tonearm, then the Jelco cables, then bugger all apart from Dave's "mail order and prices", methods of payment accepted, and contact details! There is definitely no picture of a Lenco turntable... I haven't got a bloody clue what's going on!! :confused: x 100.


Try the other link all in lowercase and see if that makes any difference to your luck with that one...
http://www.sl-1200-mk2.com/


However, that one works now! I wonder how it worked for others in upper case before but not on my comp?

Marco.

Mike
29-12-2008, 19:59
There you go... :)

Gromit
29-12-2008, 20:01
Apologies if it's been mentioned elsewhere but the Jelco 750 gets a very favourable write-up in HFW this month. :)

Methinks this will be upgrade No.2 after the Time Step psu. :eyebrows:

Talking of the psu, would someone be so kind as to give me a quick heads-up on how it's fitted to the 1210? Is it fairly straightforward? Reading the KAB psu thread I think I could manage to do that ok, so if this is along similar lines I'll be alright. :)

Mike
29-12-2008, 20:02
Try clearing all your cookies and what have you.....

Beechwoods
29-12-2008, 20:02
Try forcing a refresh of the page. It's probably reading from your cache. Go to the page and press Control+F5. Fingers crossed that will ensure you're surfing the same internet as everyone else on AOS ;)

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:04
There you go...

Thanks, Mike :)

But that picture does not show on my computer on the link quoted! How bloody weird...

Marco.

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:06
Try forcing a refresh of the page. It's probably reading from your cache. Go to the page and press Control+F5. Fingers crossed that will ensure you're surfing the same internet as everyone else on AOS ;)

Aha! I can see it now - cheers :)

It wasn't there before. What's going on there, then?

Marco.

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:12
Apologies if it's been mentioned elsewhere but the Jelco 750 gets a very favourable write-up in HFW this month.

Methinks this will be upgrade No.2 after the Time Step psu.


Richard, you won't regret it. It's one of the best tonearms I've ever used or heard - quite frankly, the price is a joke. Dave should be selling it for twice the amount and it'd still be a bargain! ;)

The Time Step PSU is also a no-brainer. Sonically, it's every bit as good as the KAB PS-1200, although Dave will say that it's better engineered (which I suspect it is), although to my ears there is no difference sonically between the two.

Marco.

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:15
Dave,

Can I ask where you obtained this particular specification from for the SA-750D?


• Effective mass 18gm


Marco.

Gromit
29-12-2008, 20:16
Richard, you won't regret it. It's one of the best tonearms I've ever used or heard - quite frankly, the price is a joke. Dave should be selling it for twice the amount and it'd still be a bargain! ;)

The Time Step PSU is also a no-brainer. Sonically, it's every bit as good as the KAB PS-1200, although Dave will say that it's better engineered (which I suspect it is), although to my ears there is no difference sonically between the two.

Marco.

Thanks Marco - although I think Dave's price on the 750 is just right as it is... ;)

Seriously, it looks fabulous and I just feel the 1210 needs to have an S-shaped arm imho. The reason I fancy the Time Step is simply because it's a UK-sourced piece of kit and it'd be good to have someone on the other end of a phone (in the same time zone!) if need be.

Tecchy should be here thursday morning...you can't beat the smell of a brand-new turntable :smoking:

Beechwoods
29-12-2008, 20:17
It wasn't there before. What's going on there, then?

It's a conspiracy! Can you hear everyone laughing :lol:

I think Dave is making a move to appeal to the rim-drive fans amongst us! I wouldn't worry - I'm sure the 1210 will be safe for a little while longer :lolsign:

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:21
Rich,


Seriously, it looks fabulous and I just feel the 1210 needs to have an S-shaped arm imho.


It looks even more fabulous in the flesh, trust me! It oozes class in terms of 'feel' when using it, too - typical top-notch Japanese engineering that only the likes of SME in the UK could emulate, at much higher prices!!


The reason I fancy the Time Step is simply because it's a UK-sourced piece of kit and it'd be good to have someone on the other end of a phone (in the same time zone!) if need be.


Too right! I'd have done the exact same thing if Dave's mods had been around when I bought my 1210.


Tecchy should be here thursday morning...you can't beat the smell of a brand-new turntable :smoking:

Indeed. The same could be said of cars :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
29-12-2008, 20:23
Ah but you didn't hear both PSU on the same deck and cartridge, if you had, the Timestep would win hands down!!

It's easy peasy to fit, one soldered joint and fit a wire with a solder tag under a screw................

Here is a big image of the Lenco (soory!) http://www.soundhifi.com/images/lenco.jpg

The review in Hi Fi World http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/currentish.html is very good, worth downloading in fact.



Regards

Dave

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:23
It's a conspiracy! Can you hear everyone laughing :lol:


Hehe...it would be interesting to know what was going on though.

Marco.

Marco
29-12-2008, 20:26
Dave,


Ah but you didn't hear both PSU on the same deck and cartridge, if you had, the Timestep would win hands down!!


LOL. You would say that!

We'll need to do that one when I come down. If you're right, I'll be buying a Time Step, *BUT* only if it's significantly better, sonically to the PS-1200, and I'll be the judge of that ;)

Marco.

P.S See my post 131.

Dave Cawley
29-12-2008, 21:09
It's better! To balance things up:

http://www.soundhifi.com/images/sl1200-750d.jpg

On mass, e-mail me directly in the morning?

Regards

Dave