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doodoos
24-11-2008, 18:53
I read that the subscription of around £50 for 6 bi-monthly issues will next year be for 4 issues, making each copy in excess of £12. Hard times no doubt. Whilst an interesting read, I'm out at that price I regret to say, and am probably not alone. Shame.

Steve Toy
24-11-2008, 18:59
£12 a copy? Wow! Does this magazine come in a hard-back cover and is it ad-free?

sastusbulbas
24-11-2008, 19:18
I don't read it, quite simply because of the cost, it's about as justifiable as paying full price to download a CD at a lower bit rate.

Spectral Morn
25-11-2008, 00:15
The first issue came free with BAJ ( a trade mag rum by Malcolm Stewart). I read it and didn't think much of it. The following isues may be better than the first. I suppose I was hoping it might be like the way hi-fi News used to be, say 13 years ago. In away it was but not good enough for me to pay the subscription.
Unfortunately paying up front for a project like this looked to risky. If it failed getting your sub back would be unlikely. Anyone remember AQ mag, it lasted three issues and the people who ran it, ran off with subscription money. I know someone who lost out and never got his sub back. I suspect a lot of advertisers also lost money, as you have to pay for a certain number of adds upfront. Not an issue with the Critic though as there are no adds;and that I suspect/know is the problem. To get enough people to support a mag without adds was always going to be an uphill struggle, as it is the adds that keep the cover cost low/reasonable.

Will it survive ? Sadly I would have to say no. It was a brave effort to try and counter the argument that adds influence reviews. If you subscribe to this view, and did not support The Critic, then shame on you.

Regards D S D L ----Neil:)

Dave Cawley
25-11-2008, 08:29
Their review on Class D switching amplifiers revealed more than any magazine or forum ever did before or since.

Togil
25-11-2008, 18:42
So do you agree with Martin Colloms' view on the Nuforce ? It's a pity he didn't review the 9SE V2

Dave Cawley
25-11-2008, 18:54
Hi Hans,

Have you tested one on instruments?

Dave

Togil
25-11-2008, 19:15
Ah no, but I have no reason to doubt his technical misgivings

Unfortunately it sounds quite good, the same thing which doesn't stop valve enthusiasts to use poorly measuring equipment

But I'm open to try something else, to see what I'm missing !

Ali Tait
25-11-2008, 19:51
I guess it depends what you mean by poor measurements.Directly-Heated Triodes are still the most linear amplifying devices ever constructed AFAIK.You cannot make a sand amp with no feedback!

Dave Cawley
25-11-2008, 20:32
Most valve equipment measures very well!

Dave

Marco
26-11-2008, 09:03
Indeed. I think also that people are obsessed with distortion and tend to lump all forms together as 'bad'. There are many different types of distortion; some is 'music friendly' and easy on the ear, particularly the type often produced by valve amps.

Also, it should be remembered that music itself has natural distortions present so these must remain 'intact' in order for music to be faithfully reproduced. This is one reason why many including myself feel that good valve amps are superior to good solid-state amps. When examples of both are properly designed, valves have the edge in my experience due to the distortion produced being more faithful to that naturally present in music.

This is why, IMO, more 'air and space' is heard around voices and instruments when valves are used, and there is often a sense of greater 'realism'. It's a bit like recording with and without Dolby noise reduction in the days of cassette tape - use it and tape hiss is cut (and some distortion removed), but so is some of the music's dynamic range! What you end up with is a duller sound and a significant loss of high frequency information.

This is what I mean about different types of distortion: remove the wrong type and the accurate reproduction of music suffers. I'm being overly simplistic of course, but this is in general what I feel happens sonically with valve and transistor amps (or valve and transistor anything) when all things elsewhere are equal.

More on-topic, I think Hi-Fi Critic will survive mainly because of the people running it and their views, which many who've given up on printed magazines for one reason or the other, will find a breath of fresh air. Let's face it, the content of most magazines now is stale and out of touch with what real enthusiasts want so good luck to the chaps at Critic for producing something different!

Marco.

Dave Cawley
26-11-2008, 09:21
Third harmonic distortion (and all odd orders) is unnatural and not pleasant, if a transistor amplifier is going to produce distortion, then that's what it does. Which is why Class A is so cool.

Second harmonic distortion (and all even orders) is rather pleasant, exists in nature, and valves put out more, and hardly any third, at least good ones do.

But wait! distortion is only one of many measurements of an amplifier, and the Class D debate in Hi Fi Critic took the bull by the horns and investigated it properly, brave chaps I say!

Regards

Dave

Marco
26-11-2008, 09:31
Indeed, Dave :)

Your Marantz amps are lovely (in many ways!) but the sound produced by the little Puresound valve amp in your 'B' system wasn't too shabby either ;)

That SL-1200 with Time Step PSU/Jelco SA-750D/Denon DL-103R/Auditorium23/Puresound A30/Usher system sang like a canary!

Marco.

Neil McCauley
26-11-2008, 10:03
Surely this initially uncomplicated thread could stay on track - at least for a while - even if some of the others do have advantages in allowing side paths?

The relevance of an increasing number of threads here are being diluted because of premature drift. It used to be, usually, around page 4 and onwards that this started to happen.

Come on guys, how about a bit more focus from now on please?

---//---

Marco
26-11-2008, 10:11
Fair enough, Howard - I agree, but the fact is if there isn't sufficient interest in the original thread topic, or all material has been covered, the discussion will drift. This is a normal and natural process. However we don't allow blatant 'thread crapping' and if other members of admin or I go 'off on one', we don't mind being asked to pull in the reigns, so to speak ;)

What's your view on Critic then?

Marco.

Togil
26-11-2008, 10:55
We weren't far off thread as Dave pointed out the excellent article on Class D in Hifi Critic ( on the website there's also Martin Colloms' powerpoint talk on Class D which he gave in Munich )

Mr. C
26-11-2008, 11:34
I suspect this year will be the crunch for this particular piece of old stagers last stand journalism, while admirable in approach, it fails to deliver anything really of merit.
If you take the average readership age/income stream/biased views and compare it to 'what happens in the real world' possibly there is a gulf ;-)

Dave Cawley
26-11-2008, 12:47
Hi Fi Critic had the balls to upset the apple cart. The pdf just mentioned is here http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

After the magazine review I spoke in person at some length with Martin.

They deserve to succeed, but I have to say I don't subscribe!

Dave

Mr. C
26-11-2008, 14:38
Dave,

I don't balls had anything to do with it LOL!.
Paul M is a nice gent and I get on very well with him. However the real world is for those that live outside 'Gilded cages' and actually listen to a equipment in real environments and have no agenda's.
On a more fun note did any one witness the highly public bust up between Martin Colloms and Max T at the Heathrow show, highly entraining and brought a little charm to an other wise dull show :-).
The old guard will hopefully be passing on to pastures greener, I look forward to a superbly detailed and in-depth review of the 1973 'Suffolk punch-master' V's the Atco 60' comparing the blade width and resharpening cycle, down to 3 micron's. I can hear it now ............' The Atco I award 234 points, it's agility and slow RPM cutting far exceeds the Suffolk in short to medium grass, though the Punch-master shows it the Atco a clean pair of heels when the going gets tough'
'Our self obsessed testing at Brunnel University with the patented 'my degree in engineering is better than yours' mentality has un-earthed a great may flaws in its designs, that for a small fee I could re-engineer it for manufacture' I award it 56 points.
Hummm............break out the Horlicks and comfy slippers, now where I did I put my hob knobs?

Marco
26-11-2008, 14:43
Hey Tony I think you're getting a bit carried away there, old chap!

If you have an agenda against the "old guard", or some issue with certain hi-fi journalists please keep it to yourself or express your opinion more constructively. This is not the place for 'digs' at members of the industry in whatever capacity they represent, sorry.

Marco.

Steve Toy
26-11-2008, 14:46
On form today I see Mr C. :D

Marco
26-11-2008, 14:47
Oi, you too!! ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
26-11-2008, 15:53
The lawnmower shoot-out was funny though, but, er, yes we must desist from making digs at others in the industry and set a good example etc.

Marco
26-11-2008, 15:58
Indeed. I'm a member of the Hi-fi Critic forum so I don't want any grief for allowing 'stuff' to be written here about their admin, if you see what I mean Gertrude :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
26-11-2008, 16:30
Ah yes. Good point. We're having issues at the moment re. inter-forum digs so we must rise above it and set a perfect example.

Mr. C
26-11-2008, 16:53
Now now girls, I promise it is nothing to with inter forum digs what so ever.
It is a general comment around some the jurno's at the moment.
So fear not

purite audio
26-11-2008, 18:09
Good point well made Mr C.

Marco
26-11-2008, 19:20
We don't have a problem with that, guys, just keep it from being 'personal' :)

I actually happen to enjoy reading what people like Malcolm Steward, Martin Colloms, Alan Sircom and Paul Messenger write as they have a huge amount of knowledge and experience to share. You can always learn from people like that even if you don't necessarily agree with everything they write in magazines.

Intelligent people always learn from others - only fools think they know everything...

Marco.

MartinT
27-11-2008, 00:50
I have enjoyed reading Hi-Fi Critic and took out a subscription at the Hi-Fi Show. I know there's a risk of their going under but it's only £50 and you have to put your money where your mouth is sometimes.

The guy running the HFC stand asked me what I thought of the show and took a genuine interest in my responses. I said that the Wilson Audio Sophia speakers had impressed me the most but that I preferred my Ushers. He said there was a large positive ground-swell of opinion on Usher speakers and that they would try to review a pair in a forthcoming issue. I wish them well.

Neil McCauley
27-11-2008, 09:29
Thank you for the invitation Marco

Why I believe HiFi critic can and must survive (aka ‘Why the snipers are so so wrong!’)

I don’t thing that price – per se – is the issue. Perceived value is though.

Perceived value is axiomatically linked to expectations and it seems to me (without knowing the facts) that the core problem is that these expectations were not thought to be sufficiently realisable by potential subscribers and far more worryingly, were not in actuality met by a sufficient numbers of existing subscribers, a (significant?) proportion of whom have decided not to renew.

From a marketing perspective, and again not being conversant with the facts, it is the latter problem i.e. insufficient renewals that if true would worry me the most. I’ve seen this happen time and time again when acting as a consultant to numerous B2B (business to business) automotive industry subscription-only publications.

It’s not academic but …

Without wishing to turn this into some sort of semi-academic treatise on the marketing of magazine subscriptions (despite the fact I have intimate first hand knowledge of this) it is I feel worth pondering if the expectations of potential subscribers and lapsed subscribers were realistic in the first place.

Moreover, has any attempt been made now, or was made prior to the first issue to determine (a) what the expectations were (b) were enough of them reasonable (b) were the reasonable ones achievable and (d) were they achievable within the budget?

Me, personally?

Speaking personally, I did and still have expectations of HFC which I don’t believe have been met. However it is quite likely that although I perceive my expectations to be reasonable, these were (and remain) probably contrary to editorial policy. A expansion on this is beyond the scope of this reply here and now.

From a separate but related perspective, my own view of a magazine, in any activity that interests me, is not typical it seems of general readers. For me, primarily (as a ‘civilian’ rather than an industry member) I'm looking to a magazine to save me money by helping me avoid purchases that are unlikely to meet my expectations. Let me briefly give three example to illustrate the point.

Supporting, albeit peripheral evidence #1

Re digital cameras, a recent consumer magazine pointed out that a particular new 22 mega pixel DSLR while at some ISO settings was noise-free was at higher ISO settings not as noise-free as my current semi-pro DSLR. Moreover the low-light auto focus was not state-of-the-art. In short, the magazine saved me, in one issue, well over £1k. Clearly in this instance, outstanding value.

Supporting, albeit peripheral evidence #2

Re high performance hot-hatch cars, I have in the past avoided wasting money on a particular model which while satisfying my 0 > 62 mph criterion would not it seems satisfy me (or anyone else ober 3' tall) from a rear seat comfort standpoint.

One issue saved me £32k.

Again, in this instance, the magazine was outstanding value. The arithmetic is simple. One issue @ £3.80 saved me £32k. That’s the nuts and bolts in this instance. All the rest is just background noise.

Direct, albeit hypothetical (to protect the innocent) evidence to support HiFi Critic

Let’s say as a hypothetical but I believe credible illustrative example HFC conducted a review of say a piece of so called audiophile Hard Drive technology which was in performance terms merely average and from value terms was clearly a bought-in proven-elsewhere at far less money technology clad in a classy looking box with a customer-as-walking-wallet brand and price tag – and it told me this – and I saved £3k+ as a result?

Arguably that single issue of HFC was blinding value. From this precise perspective – that of helping the potential buyer save money – that issue would be worth a small fortune and a subscription would be a no-brainer.

In summary then …

1. It is my contention that subscription price is not the driving force here and that perceived value is. This in turn means that …

2. It might be sensible for HFC to determine (rather than suppose, however well intentioned that supposition might be) what the expectations of editorial policy are in the target market. And then to determine if (a) these expectations are realistic and achievable and (c) then realign to meet those expectations.

3. HFC should not be allowed to die. There’s no rational reason (putting Darwinian economics aside for a moment) for it to do so. It should thrive, let alone survive and the industry and the ‘civilians’ will be worse of for it if it ceases. It goes beyond merely ‘missing’ it.

and finally and I personally believe most importantly …

4. Readers, subscribers and snipers should consider reconsidering the rational of how they determine subscription value. From my perspective, and it has served me well over many years in many of my interests, is to (a) be appreciative of the way that a magazine can every now and then save me money that very greatly exceeds the cover price of the publication and (b) be prepared to pay for that advice.

I should point out that currently I am not a subscriber of HFC.

And this is simply because I look at other people’s copies. Arguably this is as immoral as listening to CDRs of music, bootleg copies of live gigs and so on. But nevertheless, I do it. But I am going to subscribe from now on. After all, using my litmus test of how much that subscription might save me through avoiding dumb purchases, it’s a sensible, rational, logical and intelligent decision for me.

And why didn’t I do this previously?

Err, no idea.

Okay Marco?

PS

I offer my apologies for any spelling and other grammatical errors here. I only had 10 mins to get this down. First draft only. Not time for editing, dammit.

MartinT
27-11-2008, 10:26
I'm looking to a magazine to save me money by helping me avoid purchases that are unlikely to meet my expectations

Turning that around, I use magazines (especially in the field of hi-fi, cars and PCs) to help me shortlist those items I am interested in. I will then go and see/demo them for the final choice. This is why not only reviews but regular columns are so valuable. The when of reading magazines (such as in bed) is why, for me, the paper format beats the internet.

Two specific examples: I shortlisted my new BMW Coupe from reviews in various magazines and then ascertained, from a test drive, that it was every bit as good as was being claimed.

Closer to home, it was the well-written and glowing review of the Usher Be-20 speakers in The Absolute Sound magazine that single-handedly got them into my shortlist and, eventually, into my system. I would never have even listened to them otherwise, missing potentially the purchase of my lifetime.

Neil McCauley
27-11-2008, 10:31
Turning that around, I use magazines (especially in the field of hi-fi, cars and PCs) to help me shortlist those items I am interested in. I will then go and see/demo them for the final choice. This is why not only reviews but regular columns are so valuable. The when of reading magazines (such as in bed) is why, for me, the paper format beats the internet.

Two specific examples: I shortlisted my new BMW Coupe from reviews in various magazines and then ascertained, from a test drive, that it was every bit as good as was being claimed.

Closer to home, it was the well-written and glowing review of the Usher Be-20 speakers in The Absolute Sound magazine that single-handedly got them into my shortlist and, eventually, into my system. I would never have even listened to them otherwise, missing potentially the purchase of my lifetime.
I'm not clear if this means you hope HFC will survive, or die, or you don't care either way. Can you clarify please? Thanks. HP

---//---

MartinT
27-11-2008, 10:33
I'm not clear if this means you hope HFC will survive, or die, or you don't care either way

I certainly hope HFC survives and I am a subscriber. Their in-depth reviews involving more than one reviewer are especially insightful and balanced.

Marco
27-11-2008, 10:45
I completely agree with Martin - more power to their elbow(s)!

Marco.

Togil
27-11-2008, 12:42
Of course HiFi Critic should survive. I'm not a subscriber but I buy every copy which has something of interest for me and so far I have nearly every copy.

It's the only magazine which has

1. Martin Colloms' very thorough reviews which mention negative as well as positive features of a product , or can even be quite negative , cf the recent Naim HDX review
2. as Dave said , investigated the peculiarities of Class D
3. articles by recording engineer Tony Faulkner

Togil
29-11-2008, 19:17
Hi Fi Critic had the balls to upset the apple cart. The pdf just mentioned is here http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

After the magazine review I spoke in person at some length with Martin.

They deserve to succeed, but I have to say I don't subscribe!

Dave

What do Hugh Unsworth and Len Gregory think of this article ?

Alex Nikitin
29-11-2008, 20:16
Hi Fi Critic had the balls to upset the apple cart. The pdf just mentioned is here http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf



Martin is very accurate in his presentation. I am not using any class D in my system and will not use in any foreseeable future. I think that Class D is more successful now not so much thanks to the (undeniable) technical developments, but more to the general lowering of the quality of available recordings, especially in digital formats. For CD level of quality a good modern class D amp is almost sufficient. As soon as the source is much better than that (good quality vinyl or tape recording, or even a good high-resolution digital recording) the deficiencies of class D become apparent if you compare it to a top level analogue amplifier.

Alex

Togil
29-11-2008, 20:29
Thus my question above, because Len Gregory, the cartridgeman and analogue expert ,told me that the Nuforce 9SE is the only SS amp which comes close to his valve amps...

Alex Nikitin
29-11-2008, 20:51
Thus my question above, because Len Gregory, the cartridgeman and analogue expert ,told me that the Nuforce 9SE is the only SS amp which comes close to his valve amps...

I did not have a chance to listen to Nuforce in my own system. However I did listen to 9SE V2 for 3 days at Heathrow Show in HiAudio room and had a distinct impression that the Nuforce amplification was the weakest link, especially with vinyl. I can add that these amps were probably the best class D I've heard and I could at least listen to the music (and not the amps ;)) most of the time. But I would not be happy with them in my own system long-term (IMHO) .

Alex

Togil
29-11-2008, 21:03
What speakers did they use - Ushers ?

Len Gregory uses Quads , it's just possible that some of the problems with class D are somehow less apparent . They do struggle a bit with complex orchestral material probably due to the power supply, but solo piano, eg, is stunning on my 2805s

Alex Nikitin
29-11-2008, 21:34
What speakers did they use - Ushers ?

Len Gregory uses Quads , it's just possible that some of the problems with class D are somehow less apparent . They do struggle a bit with complex orchestral material probably due to the power supply, but solo piano, eg, is stunning on my 2805s

Yes, at the show they used Ushers 8571-II. Electrostatics are an interesting case because of their highly capacitive load impedance. It is just possible that Quads are a better match for Nuforce, and, on the other hand, Nuforce may be happier with Quads than majority of conventional solid-state amps. I am sure, thought, that an analogue SS amp can be designed to work specifically with electrostatics and in that case it can be better than class D - even Nuforce.

Alex

michaelhigh
18-10-2010, 21:04
Turning that around, I use magazines (especially in the field of hi-fi, cars and PCs) to help me shortlist those items I am interested in. I will then go and see/demo them for the final choice. This is why not only reviews but regular columns are so valuable. The when of reading magazines (such as in bed) is why, for me, the paper format beats the internet.

Two specific examples: I shortlisted my new BMW Coupe from reviews in various magazines and then ascertained, from a test drive, that it was every bit as good as was being claimed.

Closer to home, it was the well-written and glowing review of the Usher Be-20 speakers in The Absolute Sound magazine that single-handedly got them into my shortlist and, eventually, into my system. I would never have even listened to them otherwise, missing potentially the purchase of my lifetime.

I can't imagine how hard it would be to shortlist anything, no matter what it would be, without authoritative suggestions from trusted sources... I could buy food from experience, but audio? As expensive as it can be? With literally thousands of choices spread across decades of listening choices, style and taste changes? I just cannot even begin to know how I would choose. I would have the most mediocre kit imaginable. I don't know about purchasing periodicals but I don't think I could, or would want to live without reviews, be it for pro audio or home stereo, online or from a sales rep. Too many choices, too many innovative new products, it makes my head spin. Am I alone?:scratch:

MartinT
18-10-2010, 21:08
Am I alone?:scratch:

No!

nat8808
19-10-2010, 23:36
No, but in my case a current magazine is irrelevant to my world of second-hand buying. I need magazines that are 10,20, 30 years old now (hence I do have a lot of old magazines).

The problem with keeping a current magazine alive like Hifi Critic (it is still going ok isn't it?) is that it only really is relevant to those thinking of purchasing new equipment and happy to swallow the depreciation. That normally means the fairly well off in hifi terms.

Ok, also it's there for people with aspirations who like to dream of buying new gear, dreamers, gearheads - I used to do the same with Sound On Sound, imagining what I might buy for my future studio, that is until it kept that studio in my head as I lusted after the next thing I couldn't afford. I got into ebay and finding retrospective reviews online allowed me to pick and choose gear from yesterday that I could actually afford..

I'll be quite pleased to get hold of every issue of Hifi Critic in say 10 years time..

YNWaN
20-10-2010, 13:29
Hi-Fi critic still exists and I hope it continues to do so for a considerable time to come; as it is, by far, the best publication of its type IMHO.