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Spectral Morn
22-11-2008, 14:24
Hi Guys

Just wondered what you think about Roy Gregory's article, Playing the System about Forums and those who lurk on them and whether they can be a source of good advice or not.

I think he has a lot of good and valid points to make about some Forums(not this one for the most part if at all. I haven't read everything yet). There are certainly instances on other Forums when there are those who make mischief, or have axes to grind etc. I do feel that certainly there is not enough qualification of things that are said(written) by posters and thread starters. I made a point about this regularly on ZG when I first joined(something which was ignored by most who read them as no comments of agreement were posted for the most part).

I think that accountability is important when offering any information so in agreement with Roys comments I will from now on sign my first name after any threads or posts made by me.

Regards D S D L -----Neil :)

Covenant
22-11-2008, 15:13
I havent read the article but wonder if accountability is ever an issue on open discussion forums. Mostly it stems from people who have swapped a few boxes or cables and have an opinion about which is best.
Personally I have found the advice given has been excellent and have stopped buying any hifi magazines.

Beechwoods
22-11-2008, 16:02
It depends which forums :)

AOS at least seems to have a lot of regular posters who are always around to answer to their prior posts! When reading anything about hi-fi, partiuclarly on forums, and often elsewhere there are always conflicting viewpoints anyway. People should find the consensus which tallies with their own experiences. Mischief makers will always be around, but they don't go unnoticed for long.

John
22-11-2008, 16:49
I will often give my thoughts around recomendations which are based on what i heard and my personal experience. I know that my thoughts are often biased to my own perferences and limited to what I heard; however I hope they are honest and fare.
I think on the whole forums provide a opportunity to share your passion with others my biggest passion is not HIFI gear but music and can talk for hours on this.
I also seen some really nasty comments and bullying on some sites as well as people passing harsh judgements on something they have not heard due to views they have.
But what I like about forums is in the most people are happy to share there knowledge and experiences, its more interactive and often you can get a wider view point and learn something in the process

Spectral Morn
22-11-2008, 17:12
Hi John and Guys.

John paints A very positive picture and so far AOS falls into this camp. I visit forums for this type of interaction and to offer any carefully considered and qualified advice I can.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil:)

John
22-11-2008, 17:29
Hi Neil
I am more a glass is half full guy than half empty but there are lots of sites I stay away from

Spectral Morn
22-11-2008, 17:57
Hi John

IYHO can you name these, If you don't mind ? You don't need to say why.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil:)

Filterlab
22-11-2008, 17:57
LOL! Neil, I thought your name would begin with a 'D'. :)

John
22-11-2008, 18:34
Hi Neil
Sorry I am not going to name and shame

i_should_coco
22-11-2008, 18:51
And who holds the magazines and journalists accountable? Just because they get paid for it doesn't, IMO, make them automatically more qualified than someone on a forum. At least on a forum you can get a cross section of opinions, unlike in a magazine, where you're taking one person's, who may or may not have a vested interest that they have not disclosed.

RG certainly likes Nordost a lot. What are we to make of that? Claiming that GBP5000 spent on cables an support is better than spending it on component upgrades? Who's fooling who here?

Primalsea
22-11-2008, 19:15
I think the nail was hit on the head when someone said that the forum stopped them from bothering to buy magazines.

The question you have to ask is do some magazine editors feel threatened by forums who they feel might draw away their customer base.

The the Hifi+ article was recent it's not the first time they have made noises about forums and non accountability of posters.

Yet the vast majority of posters have nothing gain from giving advice which they do freely purely from love of their hobby. Even many of posters who are in the trade do the same as well.

aquapiranha
22-11-2008, 21:22
I find it hard to see how most magazines can remain impartial when they have advertisers to please. For example, if a reviewer doubted that say changing cables makes a difference, how would any cable manufacturers paying for space in that mag feel? even if they were not mentioned by name? i do not buy magazines now, though I have in the past, mostly to look at the pretty pictures...

Steve Toy
23-11-2008, 04:48
Not all magazines feel threatened by all forums. I know one magazine, Hi-fi World that was very supportive of AOS in this month's issue on page 8.

jandl100
23-11-2008, 08:41
And who holds the magazines and journalists accountable?

Absolutely.

As mentioned in Harry Pearson's article in the same issue of HiFi+, you don't even have to be corrupt (that is the correct word, I think) .... you just have to have someone who is sympathetic to your brand doing the reviewing.

Give Paul Messenger a Naim component to review, and very likely you will get a positive outcome. Not always true - but pretty darn reliable - certainly a 'low risk' strategy on the part of the manufacturer! I am sure this is not because PM is on Naim's payroll - he just likes Naim equipment, is fully briefed on the company's new equipment roll-out plans and gets in quick with requests for kit or is directly offered things to review by a canny manufacturer.

Similarly for Roy Gregory and Nordost, among others.

jandl100
23-11-2008, 08:55
.... and another thing :) ..... what RG fails to acknowledge (or perhaps even to realise) is that on Forums like this many of us aren't 'nameless & unaccountable', many of the posters get together for Bake Offs or just to swap kit ..... many of us know each other and help each other out as well as provide advice based on our own hifi experiences.

Most forum inmates can quickly identify and allow for posters with a particular agenda - it ain't rocket science!

But acknowledging that sort of thing doesn't suit RG's anti-forum agenda, sadly. He really needs to get out a bit :) Perhaps someone should invite him to join our community here. ;)

Togil
23-11-2008, 09:11
One problem with forums is that you can't easily get advice on recent equipment.

Example :I'd love to hear from someone who has the new Meridian 7200 speakers. All I would get on forums is comments how people liked or didn't like this or that old speaker from Meridian, pretty useless.

So sometimes a magazine article gives the first impression.

Beechwoods
23-11-2008, 09:26
All I would get on forums is comments how people liked or didn't like this or that old speaker from Meridian, pretty useless

:lolsign: :nocomment:

Primalsea
23-11-2008, 11:23
Just thought people would want to read this article while we are on this subject. Its sort of related. You must read ot to the end though to understand why.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

I was told that "The Call" was a particulary scaving one with a full broadside of insults to boot.

Spectral Morn
23-11-2008, 12:02
Very interesting article. I for one have always set an arm/cart up to the best of my ability and then left it at that. I have never been able to hear those type of miniscule changes my self, so I am with Geoff Husband on that. I think if the errors in set up are high you will here an improvement in sound if you correct for it. For one I would never let a TT not be set up to the best of my ability, either in a personnel or professional basis. My Phantom has a VTA adjuster but I have never fiddled with it and I don't intend to any time soon. If you feel the need to fiddle every time before listening to vinyl, go ahead but for me this is to anal and I would rather enjoy the music than worry about any possible issues; that may or may not exist. I have met some guys over the years who take this all to extreme and the result has been that they stop enjoying music and get sucked into a never ending spiral of what if''s and buts. This is not a good place to be. That way you will find madness IMHO.

However, I still think that MR G has some valid points about Forums. Lets be honest about it the biggest challenge to the printed press is the free on line mags such as 6 Moons, Positive Feedback, TNT, Tone Magazine, Stereo Times etc all of which do fairly good work and are free to read. These are the hi-fi press of todays biggest problem,not Forums.

But there are some on line and in print that perhaps aren't as accountable for what they say. But if you are in print and a named and identifiable author you are legally very much held to account. On line in a Forum not so, if you are a here to day gone tomorrow invisible and unknown. The main thrust of Mr G's article is this I feel. He has a fair point on this issue I feel. By the way I don't know Mr G at all but do enjoy reading his magazine. It is a throwback to the way The Absolute Sound and Stereophile used to be 13 years ago and not the many photos and no editorial of many printed mags today. If you want just pictures there is always porn to look at. Hi-fi news a few years ago was heading that way nice big M&S style pictures of audio(like M&S has done for food in their adds.) and very little of the written word, heck mags are for reading IMHO and to inform and educate(something some have not done in a very long time IMHO).

Regards D S D L --- Neil:)

sastusbulbas
23-11-2008, 22:47
Personally,

Magazines have dropped in quality. Most of the reviewers have been seen for what they are, no more than hobbyists with an opinion, that due to magazine fame became fact.

Now any sensible adult would be able to see that just about every "fact" on forums and magazines not to mention every technical debate regarding audio ancillaries is utterly flawed, all of it no more than opinion and theory based on the claimants opinion and preference.

NO audio equipment is anything more than someone else's ideal, and as we can see from each reviewer if you care to take teh time and investigate and study teh aptitude and changes of opinion and equipment through their years, it becomes obvious that there is no absolutes, as no reviewer has progressed beyond preference, regardless of technical debate.

Some examples of evidence against this would be strong brand loyalty changes as homes were changes and strong factual evidence of claims made by audio manufacturers, but as we can see it's all new emporers clothes.

Forums are like this but even more damaging. The FACT is that more now less than they care to admit, and most opinion is based on assumption. All audio equipment will always be variable because there is no absolute, no one can have an identical absolute, as rooms, hearing acuity, furniture, mains, ancillaries, music taste, preferences, listening habits, different listening preferences and the way one listens to music, music quantity, frequency capability, ambient noise levels, experiences etc will never be the same.

All that can be achieved is an imaginary goal based on imaginitive deduction of a reviewers or forum members opinion based on our own experiences which may be tainted but seem to us correct.

Enjoy the music, forget equipment and it's status! ALL opinion is corrupt...

Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
24-11-2008, 09:13
Well said Sas,

Your well written comments agree with my own thoughts at this time.

Andy - SDDW

SPS
24-11-2008, 10:04
Enjoy the music, forget equipment and it's status! ALL opinion is corrupt...

well said..
i sort of agree with it all..
but.. status..
there is still good kit and not so good..
regardless of opinions or the cost of it, if it is set up with like and matching equipment etc etc ..
it should sound good too..

every listener / reveiwer/ forum menber. has an opinion usually based on what their 'used' to hearing or how they like things to sound

now thats every ones right to have an ideal..
but, in saying that .. many like the sound of less accurate reproduction...

that not an opinion.. but a fact.. for some, it takes time to reconise what better is..

surely one of the main reasons for using forums and mags is the learning to be gained..
i've been 'inspired' many times to invest in something worse than what i had.. that's not a problem to me.. its just my learning curve
the skill with forums is getting a feel for the level of kit the opinion is based on..

steve

Steve Toy
24-11-2008, 10:49
Some kit is still better than other to the point of it being a no-brainer. You can take subjectivism too far to the extent of ruling out consensus of opinion which, of course, does exist.

griffo104
24-11-2008, 12:07
I thought it was quite a well written article by RG, he raised some points that are very true. A few forums (this one and the Wam) have both made it clear when people are dealers or have dealings with manufacturers (or manufacturers themselves). This removes some of the bias that may come in.

As Jerry mentions, most decent hifi forums have regular bake offs when you meet people and up chatting, having a curry and a good laugh more then anything else.

I've swapped cds with Jerry a few times over on the Wam and even though we hardly ever agree on the equipment used I have a great respect for his opinion on gear (simpy cos he's had SO many boxes) and yet we've never argued about our choices.

Forums do work when the people using them are enthusiastic, have a modicum of intelligence and are open to other's opinions, even if widely different from your own.

Magazines also have a place. I would feel guilty walking in to a dealer to listen to an uber expensive bit of kit knowing I could never afford it. therefore I appreciate what magazines do and for me hifi+ do this better than most of the other magazines.

Both can co-exist, it is possible.

Forums can be just as damaging, watch one person buy something and rave about it out only for that component to spread like wildfire throughout the personnel in that forum only to be replaced by something else 3 months down the line. It happens quite a lot and is just as damaging as What Hifi stating the cd player winning this month's supertest is the best, ever.

Primalsea
24-11-2008, 12:42
Good point but I do have issue with some of it:


Personally,
......
Now any sensible adult would be able to see that just about every "fact" on forums and magazines not to mention every technical debate regarding audio ancillaries is utterly flawed,......
....
Forums are like this but even more damaging. The FACT is that more now less than they care to admit, and most opinion is based on assumption. ....

What tends to define a true fact is empirical evidence. A "fact" is often defined by overwhelming consensus... We are sane as we tend to follow the same moral & ethical code of practice as the majority...

What we are looking at (mostly) are people who are willing to say what has worked for them in their experience. This is often invaluable, sensible advice although you may think it to be rubbish if its grates against your own belief.

I agree that some people just make it up based on no experience at all or try to tell you that their way is gospel and all other ways are rubbish. Its this that tends to do the damage.

Spectral Morn
24-11-2008, 14:26
Hi Guys

So far very intelligent discussion, however the main thrust of Mr G article was that many agendas are less obvious on forums, than say in printed magazines and retail premises. I think for me one of the big issues is it can take time to get a feel for these issues and with our faster than light quick gratification society it is harder to do. We must invest time in seeking out that consensus, and many can't be bothered doing that. The lack of many magazines with enough editorial space to allow second/third opinions(as Stereophile and the Absolute Sound used to do years ago), we just are not served as well as we used to be. With that type of space it was also possible to sort out all the issues a particular reviewer might have. I for one miss the hi-fi press of 13 years ago. I learn't a lot then and I would find the modern printed press less help if I was starting out today as a newbie.

I think that you must test everything out for yourself and see if your findings are the same. Not to do so leads to frustration, dissatisfaction and a waste of money. I too have seen the raves turn into waves of good bye when that hot item turns out to not be universal,and suits far fewer systems and tastes than comments on forums or mag reviews would have you believe. I have stood in a dem room and known that the customer prefers a choice that contradicts a mag review(usually What hi-fi), but still buys the hot item because they feel unable to trust their own opinion. To many people are sheep IMHO/E.

The truth is out there, but you must look, and not rely totally on other people. If you can't try it out and unless you are sure of your money back, or selling it on and not loosing any money, I would not bother and keep your cash in your wallet. I have made mistakes in my audio buying life and it has always happened when I thought I knew better or didn't follow my own guide lines. I haven't done this often, but when I have boy did I pay for it. I know this is hard and not all of us have access to every bit of kit we might like to try but caution is often a safer thing. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, this goes for audio buying as well as other things in life.

Regards D S D L ------ Neil:)

Gerry
24-11-2008, 15:13
RG certainly likes Nordost a lot. What are we to make of that? Claiming that GBP5000 spent on cables an support is better than spending it on component upgrades? Who's fooling who here?

I heard from someone in the Trade that RG's wife works for Nordost. I've no reason to doubt them as it just came up in conversation, but it might explain things.

I was very disheartened when I read the mag and looked at what was being reviewed. I subscribe, but don't think I'll renew as there are very very few items of relevence. In fact I'm not sure there are many items to even aspire to. £7,500 plus cables certainly arn't.

As to forums I think there is an element of sour grapes on RG's side. Sure there are the odd aggressive and bullying post, some forums arn't managed as well as others, but as to proper names etc....won't change some ones view of a product. As to who they really are, even there real name may not be a clue....OK RG's might mean something to me, but the MD or sales Director of ABC HiFI Co. will in all probability mean nothing...Ivor T exluded.

The problem with forums is they keep a lot of the older gear going, create cult products (Garrard 301/401, Technics SL's, Denon 103's etc etc.) which don't really help the mags as they need to sell advertising, which by necessity is to sell the newest equipment.

Anyway...all IMHO!

Regards
Gerry

John
24-11-2008, 15:15
Always the best advice is to trust you own ears and if you want something try it out in your system first, but while I agree that "Opinion is corrupt" it can be well meaning too. in the past I made some silly mistakes that cost me a lot of money and a little good advice could of saved me money and got me closer to getting the sound I wanted quicker.
I think in the end RG also suggested that reviewers also have there own bias and when you read review like the Odin power cable it raises the same questions!
It was good to see HIFI+ catch up with real world and talk about Computer Audio DACS and Bluetooth; the way we storing music and have acces to it is changing fast

sastusbulbas
24-11-2008, 18:47
:) Some good points raised, I agree not all reviews are bad, as are not all forum members bad. There does have to be some sense and understanding given to what is written and read in magazines and on fora, but who takes the time?

One just has to look at how people get tainted by the tar brush with a subject as contentious as cables. We still have idiots (as there really is no better term) going on about LCR and copper and no difference being measurable, (some even look at digital as being no different from analogue when discussion is in place), regardless of two completely different cables giving different results due to the very nature of their differences in construction (and measured LCR values being different), not to mention different amplifier and speaker differences affecting the outcome. Regardless of how subtle these differences may be, they will either be exaggerated in a review or receive an exaggerated response against the OP opinion.

Even the best of kit may only be as good as a systems weakest link, synergy is an area where even modest components can wipe the floor of a mishmash of expensive exotica. As an example we can look at some of the wild claims of in room responses from bookshelf ported speakers in small rooms with laminate flooring in modern houses, if one thing may kill off high end audio and explain the subjective opinion of modern equipment, the modern home may well be it.

Steve

(PS notice how many Steve's there are!, One day we may Rule the Fora LOL)

SPS
24-11-2008, 18:55
:) Steve

(PS notice how many Steve's there are!, One day we may Rule the Fora LOL)


we should have a steve's only bake off.. at least i wouldn't forget any ones name

steve

Primalsea
24-11-2008, 19:44
Another thing to consider is that a magazine will have a direction, usually defined by the editor or publisher. A well managed forum has no direction as it is a collection of various people from all walks of life each with their own experiences and views.

The issue is that there is not many well managed forums (non brand affiliated) which often results with them being populated by members with similar ideas who congratulate each other and lamblast anyone who doesn't fall into line.

I have been on the receiving end of this in the past. It seemed that you needed to be "in the club" to even be able to defend yourself from a shitty post. You were expected just to take shit and not say anything. I heard a story of another guy who just got agro because he had a LP12 as was prepared to stand by his choice of the deck.

SteveTheShadow
24-11-2008, 21:11
we should have a steve's only bake off.. at least i wouldn't forget any ones name

steve


Well here's another Steve to add to the bake-off roll call:)

Hey Steve I see from your signature you're using the PX25s in your amp now eh?

Steve

sastusbulbas
24-11-2008, 22:20
Another thing to consider is that a magazine will have a direction, usually defined by the editor or publisher. A well managed forum has no direction as it is a collection of various people from all walks of life each with their own experiences and views.

The issue is that there is not many well managed forums (non brand affiliated) which often results with them being populated by members with similar ideas who congratulate each other and lamblast anyone who doesn't fall into line.

I have been on the receiving end of this in the past. It seemed that you needed to be "in the club" to even be able to defend yourself from a shitty post. You were expected just to take shit and not say anything. I heard a story of another guy who just got agro because he had a LP12 as was prepared to stand by his choice of the deck.

How very true.

Filterlab
24-11-2008, 22:40
(PS notice how many Steve's there are!, One day we may Rule the Fora LOL)

Not whilst the forums are run by people called Rob, Marco and Ste... oh, yeah, good point. :lol:

Marco
25-11-2008, 07:31
Another thing to consider is that a magazine will have a direction, usually defined by the editor or publisher. A well managed forum has no direction as it is a collection of various people from all walks of life each with their own experiences and views.

The issue is that there is not many well managed forums (non brand affiliated) which often results with them being populated by members with similar ideas who congratulate each other and lamblast anyone who doesn't fall into line.

I have been on the receiving end of this in the past. It seemed that you needed to be "in the club" to even be able to defend yourself from a shitty post. You were expected just to take shit and not say anything. I heard a story of another guy who just got agro because he had a LP12 as was prepared to stand by his choice of the deck.

Hi Paul,

This is spot on, and like you (and the chap you mention) I've been a victim of this myself on many an occasion. I suppose considering the nature of internet forums it's inevitable but nonetheless completely unacceptable. However, with some work the situation is manageable, given an alert and dedicated admin team who are running the forum in a professional manner for the right reasons. I detest with a passion any types of cliques, such as you describe, particularly when the biggest perpetrators of this odious activity are the people in charge!

I can assure you that we would NEVER allow this sort of thing to exist on AOS and would like to think that people see the forum as a friendly and informed place where everyone is treated equally and with respect, and where there are no "clubs" of any description.

We do have a 'direction', though, on AOS whilst at the same time (hopefully) the forum is well-managed. Have you read our ethos? :)

I'd like to think that we've stuck to every word we've written!

Marco.

Primalsea
25-11-2008, 07:59
When I say mags have direction thats directons bordering on agenda at times. This is as opposed to direction as in a goal or a game plan which is all about good administration.

The mags probably started out as just a group dedicated people who wanted to write about their hobby. Some mags (its obvious which ones) are now just people revelling in their self importance. Others seem to have fallen into the corporate trap and have bosses who are more interested in profits than content.

Very few mags establish the balance between the hobby and the business sides.

Marco
25-11-2008, 10:21
Yep, it was this bit that you wrote earlier which I was responding to:


A well managed forum has no direction as it is a collection of various people from all walks of life each with their own experiences and views.


We (admin) would like to think AOS is well-managed and has a direction :)

Marco.

gary
27-11-2008, 23:30
AOS is and no doubt will continue to be a place where people can freely share their views on hifi without fear of recrimination because their view may not be that of the Admin staff that is one of the things that makes this a great forum to be a part of. Hats of to the team.

Filterlab
28-11-2008, 10:39
Kind words Gary, many thanks.

It was always our intention to create a place where folk could speak their views openly and freely without having to worry about upsetting a 'clique' of some type. I'm glad AoS is viewed in that light, as are Marco and Steve no doubt. :)

jandl100
28-11-2008, 12:57
I've swapped cds with Jerry a few times over on the Wam and even though we hardly ever agree on the equipment used ..... we've never argued about our choices.


Yep. Our taste in gear couldn't be much more different (flat earth vs round earth type of thing) But as Griffo says, we have never 'come to blows' over who is deaf and who isn't! .... I think that's because we both recognise that all considerations of equipment are subservient to the love of the music. In fact, our tastes in music are similarly divergent, but we've found that that's an advantage and I think we've both learned a lot from each other and expanded each other's musical horizons.

Vive la difference! :)

Marco
28-11-2008, 13:12
Indeed, Jerry, and I noticed that there was a fair bit of "difference" occurring elsewhere recently over Stanley's DAC, with a particular well-known 'character' at the helm as usual. I read it with great dismay and thought thank goodness AOS has a friendlier atmosphere with nicer people. We would never tolerate the kind of infantile sniping and bad behaviour I witnessed on that thread.

Please do not mention the forum concerned, but you'll know exactly what I'm referring to ;)

Marco.

David Price
02-12-2008, 23:14
I think it's a bit simplistic to see this as a forum vs. magazine debate. I don't see that it's a case of one or the other, of one being medium being flawed/compromised and the other not being. In truth, both media have their 'issues' or 'peculiarities'. The trouble is that those close to one can develop a bunker mentality and obsess on the other's apparent problems/contradictions. Many forum denizens think the mags are all automatically corrupt because of advertising sales politics (whilst happily reading and even believing their daily newspapers/watching CNN/ITV, etc., of course!) Many magazine journalists think forum posters are crackpots with too much attitude, no real experience or knowledge and a good line in conspiracy theories. In truth, neither is necessarily the case and both sides have a lot more in common than they might like to admit. I think it is good to work with this - and add our thoughts/findings from both sides of the debate without prejudice.

One key point is - as Roy says - that some posters who make very extravagant claims hide behind the cloak of anonymity. This is not good, and is anti democratic and unhealthy for debate, in my opinion. At least those journalists - who you may or may not agree with - put their name to their views! I think this is a basic prerequisite for taking part in an educated, courteous debate. (If you went to your town hall to discuss the plans for a new school/hospital or whatever, and found yourself debating with a man in a black cloak and mask, who refused to remove it, what does that make you think about his credibility?)

Adsales are automatically cited as 'evidence' for not believing hi-fi magazines. The irony is that - whether or not there is any truth in this, and I would suggest there is very little - the individual prejudices/proclivities of reviewers has a far, far more direct and profound effect. Reviewers have their tastes, and like manufacturers that reflect them. That's fair enough; the trick is to provide a catholic mix of different reviewers in every mag, and get different reviewers to review those brands when possible. Readers need to be aware of these and read the reviews accordingly. Exactly the same thing happens with forum posters, of course, but we're not always so aware of their own personal tastes...

David

Steve Toy
03-12-2008, 01:11
Good point David re. anonymity on forums in general. However, on AOS, whilst we can't really forbid posters from hiding behind a moniker of some sort, most here are quite transparent as to who they really are. At the very least we encourage all our posters to sign with their first name. In addition to this we encourage all members to introduce themselves in the Welcome Area, list their systems and post pics of them in the Gallery.

We certainly aim for this to be a community of known people and we frown on those who give the inpression that they have much to hide beyond their precise location, i.e. postcode and full name - the kind of info that could lead to all manner of personal security issues.

Whilst we consider this site to be firmly one in the subjectivist camp, subjectivism in itself isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for posting opinions devoid of credibility in term of experience in context coupled with personal preference and the faculty to discern with your own ears. Certainly where a given group of people are present in comparative demonstrations there is rarely disagreement/difference of opinion on what is actually heard by those present (at least according to my own experience in such situations.) The differences tend to be those of choices based on a given and stated personal preference.

Conflict of opinions on forums usually occurs when either vested interests/hidden agendas are present, along with (pointless) comparisons between apples and oranges that are devoid of contextual reference for a given system that also fails to account for issues of synergy between given components or ancilliaries.

Togil
03-12-2008, 07:52
At least on a good forum you can have a debate even with an anonymous member ( provided they don't suddenly disappear ) - there is no such debate in magazines - readers' letters are a joke.

I recently wrote an e-mail to HiFi World after the review of the Quad II 80 because no mention was made of the prime purpose of this amp, namely to provide a suitable amp for their new ESLs. I didn't even get a reply or acknowledgement.

Marco
03-12-2008, 10:09
Yes indeed, we pretty much insist on first names and general locations being given by new members, not for any dubious 'Big Brother' reasons, but simply because it makes for a friendlier atmosphere and more meaningful interaction between people. We encourage commonality amongst our members.

It's very important I feel for forums to create a sense of community if they are to grow and be successful. How can you achieve any sense of that if you don't know the name of the person you're communicating with or where they are from other than (often) some obscure username? We're always suspicious of people who for some bizarre reason like to 'hide'. Come out of the shadows and be bold and upfront about whom you are!

We also don't see the point in registering on our site and remaining a 'lurker'; as such after a period of non-activity we ask those with 'dormant' accounts to pop into the welcome area and introduce themselves and their systems or otherwise accounts are often removed. We wish to create a friendly and vibrant community on AOS where useful information about hi-fi, music, and material in our off-topic section is shared by a collection of like-minded people and that means everyone taking part and contributing something.

Taking all that into account, we certainly don't fall into Roy Gregory's camp of forums accused of encouraging anonymity. I do hope he's watching and taking this in!

Hans,


At least on a good forum you can have a debate even with an anonymous member ( provided they don't suddenly disappear ) - there is no such debate in magazines - readers' letters are a joke.


I agree to an extent, but what would you expect in a magazine, pages and pages of hi-fi debate between readers and magazine staff? - Hardly practical. As far as HFW is concerned they have the most extensive and meaningful readers’ letters section of any hi-fi magazine, often providing lengthy and detailed replies to assist readers - a service which simply isn't available to anything like the same degree in other similar publications. They discovered some time ago that the readers' letters section (not to be confused with the readers' wifes section ;)) was what mainly kept magazines alive.


I recently wrote an e-mail to HiFi World after the review of the Quad II 80 because no mention was made of the prime purpose of this amp, namely to provide a suitable amp for their new ESLs. I didn't even get a reply or acknowledgement.


Yes, you and undoubtedly 100s of others, too. Think about it - how much time do you have in a day? :)

Marco.

Primalsea
03-12-2008, 19:32
David,

Some good points raised there and good to see someone from a magazine put their view forward.

There will always be the problem of people dictating their views as gospel and lamblasting anyone who does not agree with them. Also there will always be views put forward that have no real basis from experience. At some point though it's up to the readers of the posts to sort the wheat from the chaf.

I look at it like this: People on hifi forums are obviously (hopefuly) enthusiasts and should be viewed as potential customers (of hifi magazines). Its not really a good idea to insult your untapped customer base.

David Price
03-12-2008, 20:34
Hi Togil - unfortunately due to the volume of letters we get, we cannot instantly write back. Indeed, we conduct our replies in public, in the letters section, which due to publishing factors can take up to 6-8 weeks for a reader's letter to surface. You might be surprised to see your letter, and a considered reply, appear in a forthcoming issue. Remember we don't have the instant replies of forums! This, in itself, is another salient point and a strength of forums - but just because a magazine isn't as good as a forum in this respect doesn't mean the letters section is "a joke", does it? David

Marco
03-12-2008, 22:35
Hi David,

Have you looked at my review of the Jelco SA-750D, here? http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1469&page=7

As a 1210 owner you may find it interesting :)

I believe HFW will be reviewing the other Jelco model.

Marco.

Togil
04-12-2008, 17:16
Hi Togil - unfortunately due to the volume of letters we get, we cannot instantly write back. Indeed, we conduct our replies in public, in the letters section, which due to publishing factors can take up to 6-8 weeks for a reader's letter to surface. You might be surprised to see your letter, and a considered reply, appear in a forthcoming issue. Remember we don't have the instant replies of forums! This, in itself, is another salient point and a strength of forums - but just because a magazine isn't as good as a forum in this respect doesn't mean the letters section is "a joke", does it? David

No it doesn't - just referring to the fact that it's more or less a lottery whether a letter is published for magazines in general although I appreciate that HiFiWorlds' letter section is more elaborate than most !

purite audio
04-12-2008, 18:27
The Jelco/Vivid isn't a bad arm, I believe jelco also make the new ortofon arms btw, but there are far better tonearms out there.

Marco
04-12-2008, 18:46
What you mean, Keith, is more expensive with a 'better' badge ;)

Name one under £1500. Anything over that is for willy-wavers only!

Marco.

purite audio
04-12-2008, 18:54
So you believe the jelco to be the best sounding arm regardless of price?

Marco
04-12-2008, 19:08
Nope, not at all. I believe it to be the best I've heard *so far* under £1500, which considering it costs £375 is, quite frankly, phenomenal.

The fact that it can compete with tonearms four times its price says a lot about how much you pay for 'desirable badges' in hi-fi, n'est-ce pas?

Marco.

pure sound
04-12-2008, 19:36
Out of interest, have you heard the Kuzma Stogi S tonearm?
That's another very good sub £500 design that's overlooked by many.

Marco
04-12-2008, 19:47
Nope, not heard the Stogi S, but I rate Kuzma T/Ts highly. I'd put them on a par with the Brinkmanns, which I also rate.

Thing is, all that stuff, Stogi aside, is so bloody expensive. I just don't want to spend that much cash on hi-fi. I prefer to 'box clever', if you get me - it's much more fun ;)

The law of diminishing returns bites hard!

At least you're paying for decent engineering, though, unlike with some other gear.

Marco.

John
04-12-2008, 20:32
I am sure the Jelco maybe the best sounding arm for the 1210 under £1500 but not sure of best sounding arm under £1500 or even £500

Marco
04-12-2008, 21:08
Why should the 1210 make a difference, John?

It's just a very capable deck that turns at consistently the right speed - i.e. what you want from any turntable, so it will show up arm quality the same as any other well-designed T/T.

The Jelco SA-750D faired very nicely against an SME V in a more expensive T/T (SP10) and therefore I would quite happily put it on other high quality turntables and feel that it would perform as good as any tonearm up to around £1500. Past experience suggests this.

So why, according to you, should that not be the case?

Indeed, the Feickert DFA-105 (essentially a Jelco SA-750 without fluid damping, as confirmed by Dave) partnered the Feickhert Twin T/T (a £4k deck!) in the October issue of HFN, and Avid are using them on their decks, too, so that kind of scuppers your theory that the Jelco is only good for a 1210 ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
04-12-2008, 23:08
And Hi Fi World have two SA-750D's on review right now!

Brothers in arms..................

Dave

Marco
04-12-2008, 23:33
They know quality when they see (and hear) it, Dave! :)

Also, I've just examined the review in HFN again with the Feickert Twin and not only was it a £4k T/T which the Jelco (oops, sorry, Feickert DFA-105) partnered but Ken Kessler, who reviewed the deck, also used a bloody Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge on it!! Apparently the combination (and deck) sounded fabulous.

How much does an Orpheus retail for, do you know? I thought they were about £3k.

No, as John says, the Jelco's only good enough for a 1210 and a 103! :lol:

;)

Marco.

pure sound
04-12-2008, 23:40
I think the point John was making is that an LT arm like the Trans Fi may be had for <£500 and that in his opinion that is a better arm although it may not be fittable to a 1210. I hope to hear one this coming weekend.

Marco
04-12-2008, 23:44
That's probably the case, Guy, but only if you like LTs! I don't think I'd want one. Much as I rate their accuracy and sound quality they're not really my cup of tea. I'm sure John will come along shortly and explain himself - he's usually a sensible chap :)

Marco.

pure sound
04-12-2008, 23:54
Indeed, the Kuzma airline is the best I've heard but even with that one the bass doesn't match that of a well sorted conventional arm although it does do some things very well.
I've used a few, a couple of ET's (Mk1 & Mk2) and a Forsell & to be honest I couldn't be bothered with the pump noise, filtering, reservoir tanks, pipes, worries about dust etc.
For what they offer, the ones I've heard that is, it just isn't worth it.

This is just my opinion though. I can quite understand others not sharing it.

Marco
04-12-2008, 23:58
I couldn't be bothered with the pump noise, filtering, reservoir tanks, pipes, worries about dust etc.
For what they offer, the ones I've heard that is, it just isn't worth it.


That's kind of where I'm at, too; that, and I love the look of retro S-shaped arms, which also happen to sound very good with classic cartridges! ;)

Marco.

John
05-12-2008, 05:11
I am not putting down the arm honest I am saying if you are compairing the arm to the sme 5 then the arm in pure sound terms Clive uses is better as I used to have a SME4 silver wired and the terminator is just in a different league sound wise miles more everything.
I have a few friends who heard this difference one being James from Whest he bought one for himself he was that impressed with its performance.
I know you do not like the design just responding to the best sound part of the statement
Also there are no bass issues what so ever beleive me I like my bass fast tight and this really manages that
The arm is capable of really rocking as well as seducing ala Temptation by Diana Krell Its like the double bass is in the room
What I was trying to imply was that I have not heard the Terminator on the 1210 so the Jelco could well be better on this table In the past you have said it would be hard to put this arm on a 1210.
I have not heard the Jelco as I said I am not puitting down the Jelco just strongly disagree with the best sounding arm under £1500
Marco please do not say things about what I maybe saying about Cartridges I never even mentioned Cartridges
Maybe its impossible to compare as they have to go through very different cartridges

Marco
05-12-2008, 08:32
Hi John,

No worries, mate. I wasn't quite sure what point was you were trying to make, so just a bit of a misunderstanding, that's all.

All is clear now :)

Marco.

Clive
05-12-2008, 08:42
I totally agree that for the Terminator you have to be able to accommodate pump & reservoir. The reservoir need not be a big issue, some have used attractive sealed glass cylinders. The pump can be a tougher one, a lot depends on your particular situation. The very latest Terminator has a modified air bearing, it's chromed (looks great) and requires a lot less air. It should run from one of those old piston / flywheel pumps quite easily but I don't know anyone who's tried this yet. The existing pumps can be turned down to to min, this will help a lot with noise. BTW I'm told the latest revision sounds the same as the previous one.

As for exchangeable headshells - the Terminator does better than this, it has exchangeable wands, you swap these over with your VTF already set.

Want a more massy wand for a 103 / SPU? The Vic can make you a heavy headshell, he's done this for himself. Also the latest headshell incorporates 3 screw in weights which you can use if you wish.

Looks are another perspective. The new version does look slicker. I see arms almost as a piece of lab equipment, the function is to accurately trace grooves adding the minimum distortion across the entire LP. For me form follows function.

John
05-12-2008, 08:45
Thanks Marco

Marco
05-12-2008, 09:10
No worries, muchacho :cool:

Clive,

I can't disagree with anything you've written; at the end of the day it's simply a matter of preference.

I can't see me ever changing from my modified 1210 (unless I move to a bigger house with a bigger music room where I can facilitate a deck in a bigger plinth, a-la Garrard, SP10, EMT, etc - even then it would have to be demonstrably better by a significant margin) so fitting a tangential arm to a 1210, even if it were possible, would look like a dog's dinner, so in the short to medium term for me it's quite simply a no-no :)

I love the Jelco - it's a stunner (and yet another 'giant-killer') which is just right up my street!

Marco.

Clive
05-12-2008, 09:40
Marco,

The most important thing is that we all enjoy what have. Our preferences are thankfully diverse. I must admit I'd love to have 2 record decks but I don't have the space, as 2nd deck would be a DD. I'm even thinking of flogging 2 of my subwoofers to free some space - my latest dsp experiments have been so successful that 4 subs will now not be required.

Cheers,

Clive

Marco
05-12-2008, 09:49
Nice one. I'll look forward to having the effect demonstrated with the Bastanis during our festive rendezvous at Ian's :)

It'll be interesting to see what you make of his Tannoys.

Marco.

John
05-12-2008, 10:33
I too would love second deck The DD would be great but alas space and costs limit this from happening But if I did I would probarly put the Jelco arm on it as agree look wise a tangential arm would not really match this type of deck unless it was SP10 with a slate plinth or something like that. Nice to dream!!!!!

Spectral Morn
05-12-2008, 11:55
Hi Guys

Bit of topic. I ran a Eminent Technology 2 arm on an Oracle Delphi mk 4 for a number of years and the sound was incredible easily the best analogue I had up until recently(though I would love to be able to check it out again). I sold the arm in 1995 (last time I was out of work). Easily one of my biggest audio mistakes.

I built an Arm board out of brushed aluminum that stretched across from the arm board mounting point and over the right suspension tower's sub chassis bar. This gave the deck stability to cope with the arms shifting mass. I did have to remove the top
cap on that tower( ruined the look of the deck). As I was using an attic listening room the pump etc stayed in the roof space. I do not remember any hassle in using it and a quick wipe with a lint free cloth sorted out the dust build up. Air bearing arms are great and worth the slight extra work. The Forsell deck Guy mentions was in its early form a load of junk. I had to re-build one for a customer of ours every so often as it would drift. The later versions were a lot better in terms of build quality. The mk1 I would not have had the gift of one.

regards D S D L ----- Neil:)

pure sound
05-12-2008, 12:18
I never heard the deck he (Peter Forsell) made, just the arm. Hope all's well Neil.

Spectral Morn
05-12-2008, 13:29
The forrsell arm was okay it was the overall package and its lack of good build (Motor unit etc) that ruined things. The one I worked on was more like a pre-production mock up than a finished one and it was production. Scary what people thought they could get away with, back in the early 90's.

I am about as well as you can expect for being out of work. Thanks for asking. Hopefully something will turn up.

Happy Christmas to you and your family Guy.

Regards D S D L ----- Neil :)