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View Full Version : Everybody reducing prices except audio importers ?



Togil
15-11-2008, 10:15
Just received Absolute Sounds' newsletter saying " buy your American equipment now before further price increases " Ha ha.:)

Dave Cawley
15-11-2008, 10:53
When anything American now costs 25% more, why would anyone reduce thier price?? Confused...

Dave

Togil
15-11-2008, 11:08
The car dealers are reducing their prices , lowering their profit margins

Dave Cawley
15-11-2008, 11:26
Only for what they have in stock I believe??

StanleyB
15-11-2008, 17:03
When anything American now costs 25% more, why would anyone reduce thier price?? Confused...

Dave
It's more a case of when anything paid for in U$ costs 25% more. I have absorbed 50% of the cost of my last shipment when the U$ was $1.63 to the . It's now $1.45 to the , so people like me are going to have to pass that on VERY soon. Not so long ago 99.99 was my price point, now 149.99 is my price point. But my FOB costs have only gone up by 10%. The rest is all exchange losses, and the increased value of import duties & VAT.
If the drops any further, we'll all be in dire straits.

i_should_coco
15-11-2008, 18:12
Ricardo obviously needs a new Ferrari...

Togil
15-11-2008, 18:34
Ricardo obviously needs a new Ferarri...

Yeah, and has its price increased in line with the Euro, I wonder ?:)

Mr Ed
16-11-2008, 11:14
Top thinking there - when turnover drops, reduce margins so you make a lower percentage of a smaller total, should hasten the entire country going bust. :mental:

Ed.

Steve Toy
16-11-2008, 11:21
The same mentality exists in the taxi trade despite the fact that lower prices are never offset by greater turnover volume.

Togil
16-11-2008, 13:08
I teach a lot of Korean students - during the Korean IMF crisis in 1996 I had to reduce my hourly charge drastically as a gesture of good will and to keep the students, in fact - it paid off in the end.

Mr Ed
16-11-2008, 13:31
If you can reduce prices dramatically for any serious amount of time, you will either go bust or it indicates that the previous price charged was 'having a laugh'. You really can't work for nothing for very long, clearing out stock below cost is called a closing down sale.

Ed.

Togil
16-11-2008, 13:36
Didn't the Japanese sell below cost in the 1960s ( called dumping ) in order to increase market share ?

Actually, to stay in the context of high-end : rightly or wrongly it's probably the case, even if a cynical one, that if someone wants highly regarded item X from the US, then whether it costs 12,000 or 15,000 doesn't matter too much.

Mr Ed
16-11-2008, 13:43
You can only trade below cost until your reserves of funding run out, if you are a substantial country, your credit is somewhat higher than a one man and his dog outfit.

Put simply, you can continue to trade below cost until your savings run out and the Banks won't lend you any more. That point is called 'going bankrupt'.

Ed.

Filterlab
16-11-2008, 13:48
...or it indicates that the previous price charged was 'having a laugh'...

Anthony Michaelson's shenanigans being a prime example.

i_should_coco
16-11-2008, 13:50
Most of the prices in high end hifi are a laugh.

Filterlab
16-11-2008, 13:51
And this will be the time of its undoing. The real prices should be gently revealed over the next year or so as manufacturers become more desperate for sales.

Mr Ed
16-11-2008, 14:02
Ah, the Sages are up and about. Time for me to remember why I don't post on forums and open a beer. :cool:

Ed.

i_should_coco
16-11-2008, 14:10
Ah, the Sages are up and about. Time for me to remember why I don't post on forums and open a beer. :cool:

Ed.

So you think "hi-end" hifi is good value for money or that the price reflects the material value? Get real.

The prices charged in high end bear very little resemblance to the material cost (either in parts or R&D). The prices are what the market will bear to create the market for exclusivity and status.

If most of the crap that sells as "high-end" disappears because of this, the better the market will be for it, a clean out is way beyond due.

Steve Toy
16-11-2008, 14:10
Ed, open that beer and consider that Rob said 'real' costs - whatever they are. We all know that being a hi-fi dealer is no way to get rich. The rich ones either made their money elsewhere or during the long-gone 'golden age.'

Marco
16-11-2008, 14:30
Importers (such as Absolute Sounds) will always be the ones making the real money, not dealers, who in general have to work very hard to stay afloat these days and (perhaps, if the wind is blowing in the right direction) earn a decent living.

Marco.

i_should_coco
16-11-2008, 15:05
Importers (such as Absolute Sounds) will always be the ones making the real money, not dealers, who in general have to work very hard to stay afloat these days and (perhaps, if the wind is blowing in the right direction) earn a decent living.

Marco.

Agreed.

Mr Ed
16-11-2008, 15:32
Well, of course HiFi is completely unrealisticly priced, that's why everone I talk to in the industry is buying another yacht and a spare Bentley. In fact the trade is so lucrative that people are being losing their jobs hand over fist. Any business with significant overheads in this climate will be in deep poo.

End of, talk amongst yourselves. :cool::cool::cool:

Ed.

Marco
16-11-2008, 15:58
Afternoon, Ed :)

I think you're taking this the wrong way and being unnecessarily defensive. If there is a 'dig', it's at the pricing structure of importers, not the profit margins of dealers. Take a chill pill and relax, old chap :smoking:

Marco.

Dalek Supreme D L
16-11-2008, 16:11
I don't want to be rude but its clear from some of the posts that those commenting don't know much about how things work in retail and distribution.

Most of the sale deals you come across are not genuine. Most are born out of needing to move excess stock on. This is not a reduction in cost as a matter of course(on new stock) but a reaction to poor sales etc(on old stock). Prices are only going down in some areas because people are trying to maintain cash flow. No cash flow and it is very hard to operate. What was once good stock can become bad very quickly for many reasons. Now days its just that people can't afford big ticket items and credit is hard to get too.

The to $ thing has always been a source of frustration but the simple fact is that unlike UK companies Us ones don't have any kind of export pricing in place. Hence the difference in cost here and there. America is so big a market that any sales anywhere else is a bonus to them. In many cases American audio enthusiasts have to pay a lot for our stuff too but the rate is perhaps not as great as the other way round. Simple fact is in order for dealers and distributors to make any kind of profit and allow the Vat,customs man to have there pound of flesh plus all the overheads etc this is the way it will be. Unless the American audio companies start to wise up. Nothing much can be doine about changes in currency but it would be nice to see reductions in items when new stock comes in with the changes in our favour. But when the other way we will just have to grin and bear it. All cost on every level are rising, most is beyond the control of the dealer/distributor.

Are there examples of kit that just can't be justified. Yes I remember back in the 90's a Cello passive pre(empty box was being sold for a couple of grand ??????? Why? The parts count and everything else about it should have mean't it was cheaper.

Are any dealers making huge amounts of money. No not into days market in the past yes( at the time of the launch of CD)but not now. To have money now mean't you had to have been very clever in the past. If you don't believe me just look into all the costs of being in business now.

The MF story is a sad one and hyperbole and a drop in pride of ownership in this kit which started about 5 years ago will put them out of things if they don't wise up. The pricing of this kit and its fluctuation is born out of certain projects not doing well and MR M saying get rid of the stock. Does these new prices reflect what this stuff should have sold at, possibly yes.
When we were told about the one box 250s we thought great, original pricing was 3000 but when that rose to 5000 we told MF it would fail which it did so they ended up being sold for 2500 and less. Did MF take a hit on this ? Yes I believe they did but I don't know by how much. Very sad.

Regards D S D L

Mike
16-11-2008, 16:11
Well, of course HiFi is completely unrealistically priced

No argument from me on that score! ;)

Togil
16-11-2008, 16:54
The fact that US high-end companies have no export pricing is probably just as well - remember the UK is known as "Treasure Island" among those that have !

Dave Cawley
16-11-2008, 22:26
remember the UK is known as "Treasure Island" Really? by who?

Dave

Togil
17-11-2008, 06:24
This is a standing joke among multinationals who charged more for their products in the UK than in any other country ( BMW used to make 30% or so more profit on a car sold in the UK; no longer, of course) helped by legislation which allowed them to penalise retailers who tried to give a discount.

Perhaps Mr. Ed can enlighten us why there are such vastly differing prices for Accuphase around the world.

Dave Cawley
17-11-2008, 08:52
This is a standing joke among multinationals

Nope, not heard that either. Maybe there was, a long time ago? Where do you get this 'new' information from?

Dave

Marco
17-11-2008, 09:29
Dave, I think what Hans says has happened/does happen to an extent and it's not just with hi-fi goods. This is a very expensive country to live in on a number of levels compared to other 'similar' countries in Europe.

More on topic, I think some audio importers are guilty as charged but that doesn't mean dealers come under the same category - far from it, in my opinion.

Marco.

Dave Cawley
17-11-2008, 10:16
Hi Marco

Hans said "remember the UK is known as "Treasure Island" " and also "This is a standing joke among multinationals "

I was at Munich and CES, drank with all the best people, and never heard anything like this. By all means complain about margins, I have some sympathy here, but to make bold statements about what people say is simply not OK?

Bizarrely, with the Dollar and Yen as they are now, it can be cheaper to by in the UK, until all the old stock is used up!!

BTW, Guy is visiting us on Thursday.

Regards

Dave

Marco
17-11-2008, 10:53
Yep, it's probably just the use of rather sensationalistic language and a slightly overactive imagination ;)

I think he has a point but I guess that unless Hans has tangible proof that those remarks were made he shouldn't really write that kind of stuff...

Have fun with Guy on Thursday - I'm sure we will, too, next week :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
17-11-2008, 11:10
.
Oh yessssssssssssssssss!

:gig:

Dave
.

StanleyB
17-11-2008, 11:25
Hi Marco

Hans said "remember the UK is known as "Treasure Island" " and also "This is a standing joke among multinationals "

I was at Munich and CES, drank with all the best people, and never heard anything like this. By all means complain about margins, I have some sympathy here, but to make bold statements about what people say is simply not OK?

Bizarrely, with the Dollar and Yen as they are now, it can be cheaper to by in the UK, until all the old stock is used up!!

It depends on your accent and where the other people in the crowd are from. If they know you are British the subject is not raised about 'treasure island'.

Folks like me that are constantly re-ordering stock are being hit all over the place right now. Luckily I am on the Flat Rate VAT scheme right now, so I can use that to absorb some of the price increases, but it's frightening to see a bill for U$10K being processed by the bank earlier in the year at 5K, and now at 6.9K. That's a massive increase, and how does one pass that on in full to the buying public???

Dave Cawley
17-11-2008, 11:42
.
I was with a German company!! I'm still looking for any proof whatsoever about "Treasure Island" !!

Dave
.

StanleyB
17-11-2008, 12:36
.
I was with a German company!! I'm still looking for any proof whatsoever about "Treasure Island" !!
Aber, du bist nicht von Deutschland;).

Marco
17-11-2008, 13:25
No, but he likes frankfurters and sauerkraut washed down with Warsteiner - does that count? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

StanleyB
17-11-2008, 13:32
Next thing you'll tell me he walked the streets of Hamburg after dark;).

Marco
17-11-2008, 13:35
Is Hamburg a happening place at night then, Stanley? I sense that there may be some tales to tell... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
17-11-2008, 14:05
Warsteiner? Hmmm. Can do better than that!

Marco
17-11-2008, 14:08
Dave's a cheap date, so I've heard ;)

Marco.

Togil
17-11-2008, 16:51
Re : Treasure Island :
I just googled this ,it's not where I got it from

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article3177707.ece

Marco
17-11-2008, 18:01
Seems fairly conclusive then, Hans :)

Marco.

Togil
17-11-2008, 18:20
Thanks, Marco. This was only meant as a fairly lighthearted thread about the practices of one importer, whom i have nothing against , by the way, on a personal basis, having bought AS goods myself and always received excellent service from the local AS dealer.

StanleyB
17-11-2008, 18:27
Perhaps my business model might be one to try out in these hard times. My prices are all the same, no matter which country the order is from. I include/exclude VAT depending on what HMRC rules state, and charge the appropriate postage for the destination of the goods. It seems to keep my customers happy, since none have ever complained about different prices in different countries.

Dave Cawley
17-11-2008, 18:54
Treasure Island

Where was the referance to Hi Fi??

Dave

Mr Ed
17-11-2008, 21:45
Well, I've never seen Marco and Long John Silver together.....

Marco
17-11-2008, 22:18
Hehehe... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Togil
18-11-2008, 06:04
Treasure Island

Where was the referance to Hi Fi??

Dave

Does there have to be one ?
Anyway I noticed you sell Nuforce - they and their importer are an example of how import pricing should be done - I guess they will have gone up in price but then they were fairly priced in the first place !

Dave Cawley
18-11-2008, 08:03
Where was the reference to Hi Fi?? Does there have to be one ?

Yes, because your reference was Hi Fi!!

Right now I can knock 15% off NuForce and V2 upgrades.

Regards

Dave

Marco
18-11-2008, 11:30
Dave, I'm sure that it applies to hi-fi the same as it does to the other goods mentioned in the article :)

I agree that to an extent we are 'mugs' here in the UK. Look at the cost of eating out in a restaurant, for example, compared to elsewhere in Europe. It's a bloody joke!

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
18-11-2008, 14:35
If Ricardo needs a new Ferrari then Stan must need a new mobylette ;)

StanleyB
18-11-2008, 16:10
That's still some years off. Got to save up for a push bike first:).

Primalsea
21-11-2008, 08:45
I can remeber that in the 80's all electronic goods were outragously expensive. My father bought a Hitatchi hifi which was only a basic thing based on a chip amp and it cost over 600. This is a lot to pay for such a thing now and 600 was a lot of money in the 80's.

I would hazard a guess that that if any hifi dealers made serious money it was in the 80's when it was all about expenditure. Only budget gear or good gear from un-mercenary guys is reasonably priced. Higher end pricing is based on other factors such as demand, perceived quality in the market and customer base. Has anyone heard of the classifications of social economic groups A, B, C, C1 etc. There are others too:
LOMBARD = Loads of money but a right dick
GANGLY = Green anorak, no girlfriend
There are more but I cant remember as it was many years in colleage that I leant about this stuff.

If you can market a product so its desireable to LOMBARDS your doing OK, you just have to put up with them.

Filterlab
21-11-2008, 12:22
Has anyone heard of the classifications of social economic groups A, B, C, C1 etc. There are others too:
LOMBARD = Loads of money but a right dick
GANGLY = Green anorak, no girlfriend
There are more but I cant remember as it was many years in colleage that I leant about this stuff.

I hadn't heard of that - tell us more, they sound very good. :)

Mr Ed
21-11-2008, 15:38
A yuppie gets married and becomes a DINKY - Double income, no kids yet, later becomes a SITCOM - single income, two children, oppressive mortgage.

Made me smile anyway!

Ed.

Filterlab
21-11-2008, 15:46
LOL! Excellent. :)

Primalsea
21-11-2008, 16:53
KIPPERS - Kids In Parent's Pockets Eroding Retirement Savings

NINJA - No Income No Job or Assets

Mike
21-11-2008, 19:57
TITCOM - twin income, two children, oppressive mortgage

Err... that would be me! :lolsign:

shane
21-11-2008, 20:57
In my case right now NITCOM. work it out...

Mike
21-11-2008, 21:13
Err... No Income etc?

I'm expecting that at any moment myself! :(

nat8808
28-11-2008, 01:25
Where was the reference to Hi Fi?? Does there have to be one ?

Yes, because your reference was Hi Fi!!

Right now I can knock 15% off NuForce and V2 upgrades.

Regards

Dave

Just read the thread and to clear this bit up, I understood Hans' Treasure Island comment to be general..


The fact that US high-end companies have no export pricing is probably just as well - remember the UK is known as "Treasure Island" among those that have !

I read it to be two separate statements, a quip thrown in after the first bit - the problem of dry text on a forum over real speach with intonation..

A lower pound does of course mean that secondhand collectables are snapped up for higher pound prices by overseas bidders on ebay! Have been seeing that with ls3/5a, Garrard, Thorens etc auctions - more regular high prices! Regular Garrard 401s (in good nick of course) getting 600 odd, record price for Rosewood Chartwell ls3/5as of 2,200 (at least I've not seen that price before perhaps nearer 1,500).

It would be a good time for complete manufacture within the UK - I don't know what though as most electronics are from overseas - perhaps turntables or speakers?

Not saying that will last though..

Dave Cawley
28-11-2008, 08:11
Just read the thread and to clear this bit up, I understood Hans' Treasure Island comment to be general..

If you read his comment below, you will see it is specific to high-end Hi Fi, as was and is the thread.

The fact that US high-end companies have no export pricing is probably just as well - remember the UK is known as "Treasure Island" among those that have !

However, no one can find any reference to "the UK is known as "Treasure Island""

I think this is unnecessary and unwarranted 'bashing' and not worthy of this rather good forum!


Dave

Togil
28-11-2008, 08:32
I still maintain that those overseas HiFi companies which determine their worldwide prices from headquarters will set their prices high in the UK. I said I can't think of any US manufacturers but I'm sure some of the Japanese did , just as with cameras ( and there no photographer denies this )

I wasn't bashing anyone - just a relatively lighthearted comment about the pricing policies of one of the larger importers of US high-end after receiving their newsletter.

Mr. C
28-11-2008, 08:56
Interesting comments, a couple of large Jap manufacturers have an impending price increase of 12.5% as of next week. Real world economics can a touch perplexing can they not

StanleyB
28-11-2008, 09:15
I can't comment on the US manufacturers selling into the UK in general, but some US stuff costs twice as much in the UK as they cost on the continent.
I used to work in the manufacturing and importing of goods from China into Europe for a good 15 years. From that job I picked up that the retail prices of articles sent from China to customers on the continent, or sent to UK companies, showed a massive difference. In some cases as much as 10 to 1 !!!
As it happens, I was one of the 1st to import and sell USB leads all those years ago. It cost me about CNF 50 pence, and I sold them at 1. My buyers were selling them on for between 2.99 to 14.99.
I also made a set of leads sold under the Thor brand name. Landed cost was less than 10. But they were sold by one retailer for 79.99.

Dave Cawley
28-11-2008, 09:40
You don't have to go to China or even the USA!! CPC will sell a USB lead for well under 1.00 but go to PC World and expect to pay 14.95!

Dave

StanleyB
28-11-2008, 09:51
Well CPC used to buy from me;), end then they went 'direct' to the factories:(.