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Gazjam
07-10-2011, 01:35
Being the tight Glaswegian that I am I’m always looking to upgrade my kit on the cheap if possible. :)
Not being able to afford big component upgrades I always try to maximise what I have. As such I’ve been slowly been getting around to taking care of the “infrastructure” of my system, mainly things that take care of the mains supply to my kit.
I bought a linear PSU for my Caiman and immediately noticed the improvement that that had brought.
More recently, I bought a Belkin PF30 which made a worthwhile improvement to everything plugged into it.
This idea of improving the mains to improve the system (and hearing it with my own ears) got me thinking…

I was aware of the idea that bad power supplies (usually switchers) can eject all sorts of crap into the mains that can mess up everything else, and I had heard this for myself comparing the old SB3 PSU with the newer one for my SB Touch.
With the stock Touch supply though, the Squeezebox forum guys felt pretty strongly that there was no point buying a linear supply for the Touch as it had switching supplies inside the unit – so why bother?
That one never really sat well with me, since Ali Tait (AOS) popped over to mine for a visit and he brought a linear supply he used with his Touch.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9458&highlight=ali+tait+visit
Even in my more modest system the improvement was obvious and immediate – I heard it with my own ears.
Can linear supplies improve a squeezebox Touch?
Absolutely. :)

I notice that a lot of folk sell various linear supplies for the Touch online?
Like anything I guess you use common sense and judgement to filter out the BS merchants (of which this hobby is inundated with), from the genuine article. Guys like Paul Hynes and Red Wine Audio have a reputation for solid audio engineering, with lots of testimonials to their work.
Problem for me though is that this engineering doesn't come cheap, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like myself who wish to improve their SB Touch but don’t want to (or cant) pay double or sometimes more than the cost of the Touch itself.

Still looking to maximise the equipment I had - but unfortunately being on a budget – I put the idea of a linear PSU for my Touch out of my mind. But then I noticed more affordable products were coming to market, sold by the AOS regulars and equally reputable (but more affordable :)) dealers Mark Grant and David Brook at Mains Cables R Us.

As chance would have it, David Brook had PM’d about my SB Touch software mods thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12670&highlight=software+mods and he asked me if I would do the mods on his Touch.
He asked me if I was still using the stock power supply with my own Touch, as he was bringing a new linear supply to market and being the "SB Touch guy" :), would I like to try it in my system?
No pressure, no sales tactics just see what I thought as he described it as "a little bit special"

So I received David’s new supply a few days ago.
Here are some pics:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5830/sbpsu3.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/207/sbpsu3.jpg/)
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8797/sbpsu2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/sbpsu2.jpg/)
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2780/sbpsu1.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/sbpsu1.jpg/)

It’s different from ones I’ve seen before in that it’s a two box design and it has an IEC socket rather than a built in lead.
In my system one of Mark Grant's DSP 2.5's fits in their nicely, but it still sounded great even with a standard lead.
I guess it's an advantage in that you can upgrade the PSU and fit your own high quality mains lead?
Also unusual compared to any other I have seen is the two box design?
Asking David about it he said the supply was an improved redesign of the one on his website with improvements across the board.

The designer Nick (Lurcher here on AOS) said the following when I asked what made the two box design better than the old one:
Well, the idea came from the fact that it’s a bit silly having a regulator that’s several foot from the load its supplying. Just looking at the voltage across the load you can see the regulator it’s trying to control it at the end of a long stick. So the idea was to try and get the regulator as close as possible to the load. And after that thought, given that I have more control over both sides of the regulator, I thought something a bit more interesting than a stock three pin reg would be called for. The regulator in the little box isn't discrete as such because it uses a low noise op amp as an error amp and a discrete mosfet to control the output. I can also pack some paralleled caps in there to try and get closer to a fast responding small regulator.
First stage regulator and transformer out the way, final high speed low noise regulator close to the load. Just looking how the load voltage varies shows that you get at least an order of magnitude closer regulator than using a three pin regulator on the end of a wire.

That’s the idea anyway.

Sounds good to me, which is exactly how the PSU sounds in my system. :)
I say good...it’s a fundamental step up from stock supply - seriously.
Honestly, if I didn't like it as much as I did, the last thing I'd be doing is "shilling" someone’s kit, but this box deserves a bit of praise for what it has done to my system.

Like before with Ali Taits "medical grade" linear supply in my system, the improvement was immediate and obvious, only more so.
In hifi terms soundstage is far wider and it’s very easy now to hear how the track has been produced, not just left and right stereo, but things like studio ambience, placement of the performers in relation to each other, that kind of thing.
This doesn't detract from the music, but adds to it - it draws you in.
On some tracks it’s almost like a studio feel to the song, it’s up close and very "real" sounding but it still retains the air and emotion that drags you into the performance.
Its very clear and direct sounding, but can be warm and subtle too - it just plays whats in song but clearer and more direct than with the stock SB Touch supply in place.
I tried different types, classical, metal, Prog, 24/96, 320k web radio 128k mp3, you name it and it ALL sounded fundamentally better than with the stock switching SB Touch supply.

In short (without all the hifi clichés), compared to the Stock supply it just cuts to the chase of the music, sounds more refined but with more detail that just draws you in.

Just for the record, I have no commercial affiliation with the product or its designer, just had a chance to hear it and I'm very happy to recommend it.
I was sceptical, and I told David Brook that, but he said just to listen to it and then see what I thought.

I bought it on the spot.
I consider myself foo-free nowadays and wouldn't fork out for anything unless it made a FUNDAMENTAL improvement to my system. No point side grading or getting "different" rather than better, especially if you’re on a budget.

It costs £150 and to be honest, considering my hifi's became addictive again :) its money well spent.

Highly, highly recommended.
:cool:

MCRU
07-10-2011, 06:47
Glad you liked it Gaz, nice photos too, final version released now and happy listening. Music is Life!

Marco
07-10-2011, 08:39
Excellent write-up, Gaz! :clap:

Glad that the PSU is hitting the spot - it's an excellent product, designed by someone with an ear for music who knows what he's doing. Enjoy, matey! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
07-10-2011, 08:54
Well done - and a good idea I reckon, having the regulator as near the circuit it's regulating as possible - others do it inside so many CD players (some having a dozen or so individually regulated supplies inside) yet a certain company prefers to sell hideously expensive and rather crude external supplies costing thousands of pounds because it swells their coffers to do it this way..

To Nick and Dave B - apologies for continuing to come across as a grumpy old pauper all the time. You see, being away from the industry for so long now, I've been getting used to seeing DVD players for well under fifty notes and blue-ray players for a ton, not realising that these are often job lots with no hope of repair should they fail in the future - chuck 'em and buy another, no matter how good they are. I know you guys have to make a living supplying the stuff, but please realise that there are now many peeps like me who have to feed a family for a month on other's monthly wine bills :ner:

P.S. Does this mean that the standard linear supply is going two-box too, or should it just be that any umbilicals from box to the driven unit should be kept as short as reasonably possible?

lurcher
07-10-2011, 09:00
No, the standard linear supply is just the same as before. The external regulator needs two supply feeds to do its job so its not just a "add on the end" thing. unlike if using a three pin reg, I could take advantage and design a regulator that didnt have to get all its supply from the one voltage source. So for (say) the 5v touch, the board will get a 8v high current preregulated supply, and then a 10v low current regulated supply to drive the error amplifier.

The pictures are of the prototype BTW, for the Touch there is no need to have the external connector on the base unit, it will be hard wired,

Gazjam
07-10-2011, 10:57
Excellent write-up, Gaz! :clap:

Glad that the PSU is hitting the spot - it's an excellent product, designed by someone with an ear for music who knows what he's doing. Enjoy, matey! :cool:

Marco.

Just like your Supra Trico digi cable Marco, fit n forget.
(which suits me!)

Getting closer now to a "decent" hifi eh? ;) :)

Gazjam
07-10-2011, 10:59
Well done - and a good idea I reckon, having the regulator as near the circuit it's regulating as possible - others do it inside so many CD players (some having a dozen or so individually regulated supplies inside) yet a certain company prefers to sell hideously expensive and rather crude external supplies costing thousands of pounds because it swells their coffers to do it this way..

To Nick and Dave B - apologies for continuing to come across as a grumpy old pauper all the time. You see, being away from the industry for so long now, I've been getting used to seeing DVD players for well under fifty notes and blue-ray players for a ton, not realising that these are often job lots with no hope of repair should they fail in the future - chuck 'em and buy another, no matter how good they are. I know you guys have to make a living supplying the stuff, but please realise that there are now many peeps like me who have to feed a family for a month on other's monthly wine bills :ner:

P.S. Does this mean that the standard linear supply is going two-box too, or should it just be that any umbilicals from box to the driven unit should be kept as short as reasonably possible?

I hear ya Dave, :)
pennies are tight here too and I wouldn't change anything now unless it fundamentally better AND doesn't cost silly money.

This thing works well and is good value for money in my book.

Marco
07-10-2011, 12:59
Just like your Supra Trico digi cable Marco, fit n forget.
(which suits me!)

Getting closer now to a "decent" hifi eh? ;) :)

Lol! I'm sure you always had one, dude, but these 'final touches' you've added serve to turn what was once good into what is now great! :gig:

Marco.

P.S The Trico just lets the music through as unsullied as possible... Don't underestimate the effect of those solid-silver WBTs, though! ;)

Gazjam
12-10-2011, 14:24
agreed marco...

just need to get a more revealing pair of speakers so I can hear it all properly :)

next on the list..

Stratmangler
12-10-2011, 16:06
agreed marco...

just need to get a more revealing pair of speakers so I can hear it all properly :)

next on the list..

You should get down to listen to these Gaz.
They sound better than they look :)

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=257428&postcount=15

Gazjam
12-10-2011, 16:09
You should get down to listen to these Gaz.
They sound better than they look :)

Hi Chris

listen to what? :ner:
missing linky poo?

Ali Tait
12-10-2011, 16:14
Aye, come to Owston Gaz, if you can.

Stratmangler
12-10-2011, 16:16
Hi Chris

listen to what? :ner:
missing linky poo?

Missing link?
Sometimes I think I am :doh:
Sorted :)

Stratmangler
12-10-2011, 16:19
Aye, come to Owston Gaz, if you can.

+1

Gazjam
12-10-2011, 16:57
Ah.. :)
http://www.atrj13.dsl.pipex.com/na-meet-OwstonSept09.htm

nearly made it down last time but a bloody wedding got in the way!
Planning to go down next time.

zanash
13-10-2011, 14:42
banged on for months on the squeezebox forum about better psu ..but they wont/cant believe there ears ..glad that one does it for you .

I built my own after having a squint at the one for the sb plus ..the improvment was not subtle

WAD62
13-10-2011, 15:04
banged on for months on the squeezebox forum about better psu ..but they wont/cant believe there ears ..glad that one does it for you .


I tried the same a while back with similar results, but the vast majority are a bunch of midwest hayseeds with SB radios (I always wondered who bought those), you might as well try to explain Charles Darwin to them...;)

Gazjam
13-10-2011, 15:59
banged on for months on the squeezebox forum about better psu ..but they wont/cant believe there ears ..glad that one does it for you .

I built my own after having a squint at the one for the sb plus ..the improvment was not subtle

+1
not subtle.

tied in too much to - M E A S U R E M E N T S - over there I think?

Stratmangler
13-10-2011, 21:12
+1
not subtle.

tied in too much to - M E A S U R E M E N T S - over there I think?

I've just tried an SBooster, courtesy of Mark Grant , and it's not going back.
I've just stuck it between the stock Touch SMPS and Squeezebox Touch, and the difference was quite readily apparent.

The chaps over on the Slim Forum would have a fit :D

Before I forget to mention - I'm using the Touch as a transport into a Caiman/Gator

DaveK
13-10-2011, 21:51
I notice Mark advertises that his SBooster is equally effective in improving the supply from a linear PSU - anybody tried it? I currently power my SQBX Touch with a linear PSU through a JLH Ripple Eater and wonder whether inserting an SBooster between the Ripple Eater and the Touchis likely to make any difference.I know about Mark's 30 day home trial but don't want to waste anybody's time on a non-starter.

Stratmangler
13-10-2011, 23:40
I notice Mark advertises that his SBooster is equally effective in improving the supply from a linear PSU - anybody tried it? I currently power my SQBX Touch with a linear PSU through a JLH Ripple Eater and wonder whether inserting an SBooster between the Ripple Eater and the Touchis likely to make any difference.I know about Mark's 30 day home trial but don't want to waste anybody's time on a non-starter.

It might work, but it might also be over-egging the pudding.
The only way to find out is to give it a go.
It would be interesting to see if the SBooster works positively on the linear PSU without the ripple eater.

MCRU
14-10-2011, 17:18
I notice Mark advertises that his SBooster is equally effective in improving the supply from a linear PSU - anybody tried it? I currently power my SQBX Touch with a linear PSU through a JLH Ripple Eater and wonder whether inserting an SBooster between the Ripple Eater and the Touchis likely to make any difference.I know about Mark's 30 day home trial but don't want to waste anybody's time on a non-starter.

It's very difficult to read your post mate cos of that fat quivering belly distracting me! :lol:

MCRU
14-10-2011, 17:20
You could always try a better mains lead on your linear PSU, no one has mentioned that yet? Unless it's one with a captive mains lead, oh dear!

DaveK
14-10-2011, 18:00
You could always try a better mains lead on your linear PSU, no one has mentioned that yet? Unless it's one with a captive mains lead, oh dear!

Yep, I could do that - ATM it's just a bog standard kettle lead - should have thought of that myself :doh: .
I'll dig one out and see if it makes any difference that I can perceive.
Dave.

MCRU
31-12-2011, 18:27
The latest recipient of my MK II Squeezebox power supply comments below, interestingly I was told a while ago that the USB port gives the best performance on the touch, i.e connecting your NAS or HDD to it, seems maybe that is correct. Maybe that also explains why I sell so many Furutech USB cables!

Was sceptical about the effect of such power supply. But not any longer! It does make audible difference, especially with hires recordings. Tested it by listening to Band On The Run (official uncompressed WAV 24/96) and several Beatles records (copied from Apple USB stick: FLAC 24/44.1). All sound much better with the new power supply. Difference is less pronounced with CD quality recordings. Still, money well spent! Set up: Glyph Portagig 50 HDD to USB port of Squeezebox Touch using Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cable. Digital output from SBT to Cyrus DACX using Townshend digital interconnect. Analogue signal from DAC to NAD M3 with Townshend DCT 300 balanced XLR interconnects. With Townshend Isolda speaker cables to Monitor Audio GS60 speakers. DACX used with Cyrus PXR power supply and of course MKII Linear Power Supply!

Mr Y. Andreev

Gazjam
02-01-2012, 11:02
Dave,
do you do one suitable for the Caiman dac?

I use a TDK Lambda "medical grade" (whatever that is...) linear supply which sounds great, but buzzes a bit.

Just wondering?

MCRU
02-01-2012, 11:55
Dave,
do you do one suitable for the Caiman dac?

I use a TDK Lambda "medical grade" (whatever that is...) linear supply which sounds great, but buzzes a bit.

Just wondering?

Yes I do!

Just sent 2 out last week, one to Russia and one to Belgium!

The Vinyl Adventure
02-01-2012, 12:28
I use one of Dave/Nicks PSU's with my caiman .. Alight it doesn't have the second box thingy bit?

Works an absolute treat!
Better than the cb radio one in my opinion and it can be cranked up to 16v which seemed to work very well for me (although I'm still not sure it is wise to do it???)
Very worth while upgrade in my view!!

MCRU
02-01-2012, 16:19
Hamish

Did you un-box your christmas present off me yet dude? :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure
04-01-2012, 13:20
which present is that Dave?

Mark Grant
27-02-2012, 10:47
Also unusual compared to any other I have seen is the two box design?


The linear power supply from squeeze-upgrade is also a two box design and has been available since November 2010 from the manufacturer and was the first two box design unless anyone knows of any others.

Not wanting to thread spoil so I wont post any links or embed any big pictures, just posting some accurate details.

MCRU
27-02-2012, 10:58
choice is good

hifi choice just reviewed mine and gave it 5 stars in this month's edition

Ali Tait
27-02-2012, 11:07
Got a link to the review David?

MCRU
27-02-2012, 11:13
Got a link to the review David?

I will scan it and send it to you if you are too tight to buy the magazine..:lol:

Did not get back from bristol until late last night so need to un-load my van to find the mag.

Ali Tait
27-02-2012, 11:17
:lol: cheers mate.

electric beach
27-02-2012, 11:42
Me too David :lol:

Not interested in the magazine (nor any of them anymore, AOS cured me), but I am interested in your Touch power supply.

Without doubt the S-booster (only, not with the power supply) has given significant improvement but it does narrow the soundstage a bit in my system.

Ali Tait
27-02-2012, 11:54
Aye, I'm the same, haven't bought a mag in a long time.

Ali Tait
27-02-2012, 11:55
Steve, the Touch PS is very good indeed. Well worth it, especially when you look at the prices of some of the competition.

electric beach
27-02-2012, 12:08
I must say Nick's involvement is the clincher :)

Ali Tait
27-02-2012, 12:16
Yes indeed.

MCRU
29-02-2012, 09:58
Here is the review (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/siteuploads/sbreview.pdf) in question, it was done by Patrick Cleasby who I understand is a BBC engineer.

Covenant
29-02-2012, 10:45
What a brilliant review-a stop in your tracks moment. And to think there are still people who say changing the stock supply makes no difference because there are switching supplies inside the Touch. It seems logical to me that better supply regulation will improve the SQ.

Ali Tait
29-02-2012, 10:50
Yes, good review. That's exactly what the PS did to my ears.

electric beach
29-02-2012, 22:53
Thanks David. What a perfect review quote ;)

realysm42
29-02-2012, 22:59
Congratulations on that!

MCRU
01-03-2012, 09:43
What a brilliant review-a stop in your tracks moment. And to think there are still people who say changing the stock supply makes no difference because there are switching supplies inside the Touch. It seems logical to me that better supply regulation will improve the SQ.

Agree, probably the same people who says mains leads make no difference! :)

I would go one stage further and say that the touch sounds great using the built in dac when used with my PSU.

electric beach
02-03-2012, 16:32
Hi David,

You have private mail... :eyebrows:

colinB
02-03-2012, 18:37
If you are using the optical output on the Touch would a linear PSU be useful or is it more so when using internal DAC/ analogue out?

Stratmangler
02-03-2012, 18:53
If you are using the optical output on the Touch would a linear PSU be useful or is it more so when using internal DAC/ analogue out?

I heard a noticeable difference when I connected an SBooster to the PSU of my Squeezebox Touch, a
d I use mine as a transport.
I imagine that a linear PSU would be just as noticeable.

MCRU
02-03-2012, 18:55
If you are using the optical output on the Touch would a linear PSU be useful or is it more so when using internal DAC/ analogue out?

hi
it gives an overall improvement when using the touch's internal dacs and also when using either digital output

Ali Tait
02-03-2012, 20:00
If you are using the optical output on the Touch would a linear PSU be useful or is it more so when using internal DAC/ analogue out?

Both. Well worth the cost IMHO.

MCRU
09-03-2012, 21:16
Quick up-date, similar good results have been obtained on the M2Tech Young DAC and the Arcam R-Dac, and yes the PSU is available in silver to match the R-Dac.

LittleTone
10-03-2012, 13:33
Any special offers on the Touch PS for AOS members ?

Regards

MCRU
10-03-2012, 18:47
Any special offers on the Touch PS for AOS members ?

Regards

sorry not possible, 20% of the sales price goes to the chancellor which leaves nothing for me more or less!

at £165 some have called it a no brainer as similar products cost £300+ and a few of my customers have said mine sounds better than at least 2 well known brands of touch PSU :)

Ashmore
10-03-2012, 20:24
Chaps, linear is probably my next step in the 'never-ending-quest'. I run the Touch into a modified Caiman, where do I get most bang for my buck?

Forgive my electronics ignorance (I went to school when the teachers were constantly on strike): can I swap the psu between devices to see for myself?

Is there a product in the mains cable world that allows me to power both devices linearly, ie one psu with two individually adjustable outputs? I'd imagine if this was technically possible it would be attractive at, say 1.5x the cost of the single version... Just a thought.

Ali Tait
10-03-2012, 20:29
I'm sure Nick would make you such a beast, ask him.

DaveK
10-03-2012, 21:41
OTOH you could do what I did - a dual output linear PSU off eBay with existing outputs at the level you want or a little above and then add a regulator (DIY or 'ask a friend') and JLH Ripple Eater to each output - job done, excellent result and possibly the cheaper option but has a big downside: - p**s poor WAF and takes up a bit of space :( .
Dave.

MartinT
10-03-2012, 22:22
Guys I'm off to Houston in a couple of weeks' time. I'm hoping I can pick up an SB Touch over there cheaply, ditch the PSU and buy one of Dave's. Any pitfalls you can see?

Ali Tait
10-03-2012, 22:28
OTOH you could do what I did - a dual output linear PSU off eBay with existing outputs at the level you want or a little above and then add a regulator (DIY or 'ask a friend') and JLH Ripple Eater to each output - job done, excellent result and possibly the cheaper option but has a big downside: - p**s poor WAF and takes up a bit of space :( .
Dave.

Only thing with that is I've tried a couple of different supplies on the Touch and Nick's is better than the others.

Ali Tait
10-03-2012, 22:28
Guys I'm off to Houston in a couple of weeks' time. I'm hoping I can pick up an SB Touch over there cheaply, ditch the PSU and buy one of Dave's. Any pitfalls you can see?

None that I can think of.

DaveK
10-03-2012, 23:13
Guys I'm off to Houston in a couple of weeks' time. I'm hoping I can pick up an SB Touch over there cheaply, ditch the PSU and buy one of Dave's. Any pitfalls you can see?

Voltage? 120v US vs 240v UK??

Stratmangler
10-03-2012, 23:15
Voltage? 120v US vs 240v UK??

Why is the US mains voltage an issue?
The Touch runs on 5vdc.

MartinT
10-03-2012, 23:21
Voltage? 120v US vs 240v UK??

Did you miss the 'ditch the PSU' bit?

DaveK
10-03-2012, 23:26
Why is the US mains voltage an issue?
The Touch runs on 5vdc.

If bought in USA the PSU that comes in the box will take 120v AC and give out 5v DC with a mains plug to suit US sockets. Replacing that with a UK suitable one may make a mess of the hoped for savings, and if you get stuck for duty and trying to avoid paying it on your return to UK the sums may look very different. I know thare are lots of 'may be' in there but perhaps they should be considered?
Apologies if I'm worrying unnecessarily :) .
Dave.

DaveK
10-03-2012, 23:28
Did you miss the 'ditch the PSU' bit?

Oooops, yes chaps, I did - sorry, but it still may affect the sums?

MartinT
10-03-2012, 23:32
but it still may affect the sums?

Yes, I appreciate that Dave. I will check prices at Best Buy et al and only buy one if the savings are large. Frankly, if the pricing is dollar-for-pound then it'll be worth buying. I don't care about chucking the PSU because I'll be buying a high quality UK spec PSU on my return.

jaym481
10-03-2012, 23:35
The stock PSU on the touch is 100/110/120/220/240v 50/60Hz. The only problem is the mains plug plate is US only. You'll have to source a plug plate with UK pins. Or buy the linear PSU.

Stratmangler
10-03-2012, 23:36
PC World have the Squeezebox Touch at £199.99, and that includes shipping and VAT.

Canetoad
11-03-2012, 13:00
Only thing with that is I've tried a couple of different supplies on the Touch and Nick's is better than the others.

I was at Ali's place yesterday afternoon and we tried my home made PSU on his touch. Mine uses an spower regulator and the usual other bits. David/Lurcher's PSU was easily better!

Bugger, now I have to get one... :doh:

Ali Tait
11-03-2012, 13:04
Aye, but at least you know there is better to be had from the Touch!

DaveK
11-03-2012, 13:33
I was at Ali's place yesterday afternoon and we tried my home made PSU on his touch. Mine uses an spower regulator and the usual other bits. David/Lurcher's PSU was easily better!

Bugger, now I have to get one... :doh:

I'm going to have to ask Marco to ban posts like this ;) - it usually costs me money :lol: .

Canetoad
11-03-2012, 16:23
I know what you mean only too well! :doh:

MCRU
11-03-2012, 18:16
Guys I'm off to Houston in a couple of weeks' time. I'm hoping I can pick up an SB Touch over there cheaply, ditch the PSU and buy one of Dave's. Any pitfalls you can see?

Dude a man of your resources must have £200 in his back pocket for a Touch from Currys or PC World surely...:)

MartinT
11-03-2012, 19:42
Well I do, Dave, but I only started thinking about getting one recently and I've just spent £4,500 on the P10, so a small bargain would be fun to find :)

Reid Malenfant
11-03-2012, 19:48
and I've just spent £4,500 on the P10
:eek: :stalks: :eek: :stalks: :eek:

Flaming hell :eek:

MartinT
11-03-2012, 20:04
That was a good discount, Mark. The list price is £4,999.

EDIT: or possibly more.

Reid Malenfant
11-03-2012, 20:09
That was a good discount, Mark. The list price is £4,999.

EDIT: or possibly more.
Must be your charming personality Martin :) Well done, it's still much more expensive that I thought though :eyebrows:

MCRU
11-03-2012, 20:25
That was a good discount, Mark. The list price is £4,999.

EDIT: or possibly more.

A super titan only costs 6k! :)

The new Isotek genesis mains re-generator costs £12,9995.00 OMG!

Wish I lived closer, would pop down with a Titan and a syncro for a bake off. Next time I go to Slough I may detour to Ascot.

lurcher
11-03-2012, 20:46
Just to answer a couple of PM's about supplies, yep, its entirely possible to put two or more into a single case, the case would cost more than the standard part so the cost would not just be a multiple of the individual supplies. I would probably use one of the Alu modushop ones that the Tannoy active crossover went into. The extra space would allow for bigger transformers as well for that matter.

Mark Grant
12-03-2012, 12:40
Guys I'm off to Houston in a couple of weeks' time. I'm hoping I can pick up an SB Touch over there cheaply, ditch the PSU and buy one of Dave's. Any pitfalls you can see?

Have a read here, one day offer at Logitech :

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16542

The offer code does work and makes the offer price £168.35 :)

MartinT
12-03-2012, 13:46
Thanks, Dave. I'm not supposed to spend money before I go abroad ;)
Will think about this later...

MCRU
12-03-2012, 18:03
Just to answer a couple of PM's about supplies, yep, its entirely possible to put two or more into a single case, the case would cost more than the standard part so the cost would not just be a multiple of the individual supplies. I would probably use one of the Alu modushop ones that the Tannoy active crossover went into. The extra space would allow for bigger transformers as well for that matter.

Well may as well get one for myself then...:)

To power a Touch and a Techy, saves on space for sure. :)

Russell Turner
12-06-2012, 10:50
Mine has just arrived.

Listened to a few "reference" tracks with the standard Squeezebox Touch PSU to get some frame of reference in my mind.

Note: I have been doing this for a nigh on a week or so since getting the new Bushmaster DAC.

Swapped out the standard PSU for the new Mains Cable one, waited for the discovery of USB files process to pass and then listened again to the reference tracks...

!!!!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't say it was Chalk & Cheese, but I would say there is a significant improvement in low level detail retrieval, instrument / mix placement and finer bass control, its like the PSU is like an addition to the Sum of the Parts if you know what I mean.

I guess the question will be, is it worth being a two hundred pound Part of the Sum, first initial impressions say yes, there was certainly a wow this shouldn't be making that much difference, but it does kind of mind set when listening, long term is I guess where it's at.

Gazjam
21-06-2012, 07:54
Being a fan of the MCRU Touch power supply, I recently had a chance to hear the MCRU Touch PSU from higher up the range, the £600 one.

I don't have my £200 supply any more to directly compare but from memory it sounded better, a step up in quality from the £200 one.
A very enjoyable listen, hadn't listened to the Touch for a while and I was surprised how good it sounded.

As far as I know the differences between the lower spec one and this is the internal wiring is now kimber throughout, furutech fuses and better connectors.
I think also that Nick Gorham (Lurcher) has sprinkled some more of his magic on it too.

Don't quote me though as I'm not exactly sure though, I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that.
£600 is a lot of money for a PSU, but the Touch is a very capable source especially when used with a good Dac and the latest EDO software mods.

Its good that there are options at the different price points depending on your budget and how much you want to get out of your Touch.

Covenant
21-06-2012, 08:07
Just latest EDO or was TT 3.0 installed gaz?

Gazjam
21-06-2012, 08:12
latest EDO Jerry

Can you have both on at the same time?
Bit out the loop with all the Touch stuff.

MartinT
21-06-2012, 08:14
I'm still running EDO v5. Has anyone noticed any positive or negative improvement with EDO v7?

Covenant
21-06-2012, 08:30
I can't say I have noticed much difference Martin. There is a big fuss on the Touch Audiophile forum about v7 being inferior but I haven't noticed it.

Covenant
21-06-2012, 08:31
Can you have both on at the same time?
Bit out the loop with all the Touch stuff.

Yes Gaz but the buffer reverts to 20000

Gazjam
21-06-2012, 08:50
Can you have both on at the same time?
Bit out the loop with all the Touch stuff.

Yes Gaz but the buffer reverts to 20000

Cheers Jerry,
I'll have a play with it later on.

(no sniggering at the back please)

Russell Turner
24-06-2012, 07:49
I am using the "stock" EDO settings here, I do seem to get slight harshness in playback, but I am coming to the conclusion it is my listening environment that is causing this...

I have my hifi in the conservatory which is rectangular the long side being approximately five meters or so and short length three and a half, I have a three seater settee in there and the speakers are firing at angles inwardly on the short length form each corner roughly.

Understandably there are a lot of reflective surfaces going on here and I know this is what is causing minor harshness in upper mids to my system, there's not a lot I can do about this as the wife is not going to allow me to start hanging carpets etc, etc in there to tame it all, and there us no other room I could get the system into...

(its a nightmare in there when it is raining as you could guess)

MartinT
24-06-2012, 11:28
Which version EDO are you using, Russell? My v5 doesn't appear to have any settings but I hear variable opinions on v7.

Russell Turner
24-06-2012, 11:40
I am on EDO version 7, I know there ways of prising version 5 onto the Touch, but I honestly don't think this is an area that needs exploration, as I can't see that helping due to the environment the system is in.

I am open to trying it and I may do when I can motivate myself to

Stratmangler
24-06-2012, 11:53
I'm still running EDO v5. Has anyone noticed any positive or negative improvement with EDO v7?

I'm still trying to get my head around the concept of a negative improvement :eyebrows:

To be honest Martin, I didn't notice any audible difference going from EDOv5 to EDOv7.
EDOv7 just gives you a number of changeable options (buffer sizes and what have you) that EDOv5 didn't give you.

MartinT
24-06-2012, 15:27
Good to know, Russell & Chris. Am I fairly safe upgrading to v7 then? I read elsewhere that 'small buffers' is the best setting. Have either of you tried playing with these settings?

I wouldn't want any 'negative improvements' ;)

electric beach
24-06-2012, 17:29
I want V4 back, it was all about the tone, man :smoking:

Stratmangler
24-06-2012, 18:19
Good to know, Russell & Chris. Am I fairly safe upgrading to v7 then? I read elsewhere that 'small buffers' is the best setting. Have either of you tried playing with these settings?

I wouldn't want any 'negative improvements' ;)

I've just left everything on default.
Most of the settings are to do with USB anyway.

MCRU
25-06-2012, 07:55
What internal mods I have is a mystery!

MartinT
25-06-2012, 08:16
The one I'd strongly recommend, Dave, is the EDO (Enhanced Digital Output) add-in. If you're streaming out to a DAC (and anyone properly using a Touch should be running an external DAC), then it's a way of dramatically improving sound quality.

MCRU
25-06-2012, 20:22
The one I'd strongly recommend, Dave, is the EDO (Enhanced Digital Output) add-in. If you're streaming out to a DAC (and anyone properly using a Touch should be running an external DAC), then it's a way of dramatically improving sound quality.

I send my Touch away for any mods that need doing, I have the country's foremost Touch Tweaker at my disposal. Top bloke he is. :)

Russell Turner
25-06-2012, 21:01
Will it come back in a tupperware box?

;-)

MCRU
25-06-2012, 21:22
Will it come back in a tupperware box?

;-)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

MCRU
25-06-2012, 21:34
I need my touch back pronto as my new m-dac is sat here gathering dust and my new Ultimate Digital Cable needs a new device to work it's magic on!

Gazjam
28-06-2012, 21:50
The one I'd strongly recommend, Dave, is the EDO (Enhanced Digital Output) add-in. If you're streaming out to a DAC (and anyone properly using a Touch should be running an external DAC), then it's a way of dramatically improving sound quality.

That's what Dave's got in his Touch.
Whats this tupperware business then? :)

MCRU
28-06-2012, 22:13
That's what Dave's got in his Touch.
Whats this tupperware business then? :)
Gaz you are the man.....:)

MartinT
29-06-2012, 05:38
While on the subject, Gaz, I'm nervous about updating my EDO v5 to v7. Have you heard any down-side or am I safe to go?

The reason I ask is that I occasionally get lock-ups when streaming Spotify and want to get to the bottom of it.

Gazjam
29-06-2012, 12:42
Hey Martin,
I've not heard any reports of new problems with EDO 7 over 5.

Safe to make the jump I'd say.
Triode (the guru behind EDO mods) really knows what he's doing.

Regarding your Spotify lockups, my money would be more on the Networking side than the EDO mods.

Worth going to 7 imo.


Dave?
no..YOU da man lol

Stratmangler
29-06-2012, 12:49
While on the subject, Gaz, I'm nervous about updating my EDO v5 to v7. Have you heard any down-side or am I safe to go?

The reason I ask is that I occasionally get lock-ups when streaming Spotify and want to get to the bottom of it.

I didn't have any Spotify lockup issues when I had my premium trial period and ran it on LMS.
I'm running Logitech Media Server Version: 7.7.1 - r33735 on Platform Architecture: armv5tel-linux .

MartinT
29-06-2012, 14:49
Thanks Gaz and Chris. I'll update my LMS and EDO tonight. I actually think it's more to do with the iPad running the Logitech app. The freezing doesn't happen very often so it's not a great issue.

Ali Tait
29-06-2012, 14:59
Try ipeng if you haven't already Martin?

Stratmangler
29-06-2012, 15:06
You could also try accessing LMS from your iPad using Safari - enter http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:9000 (xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx being the IP address of your serving machine) into the address bar.
You should also be able to save the address as a favourite or bookmark or something like.

MartinT
29-06-2012, 15:35
Thanks, both. I'll try IPEng and the Safari access method. I quite like the Logitech app because it's simple and pretty much emulates the Touch's screen.

Chops
29-06-2012, 16:14
Thanks, both. I'll try IPEng and the Safari access method. I quite like the Logitech app because it's simple and pretty much emulates the Touch's screen.

I use iPeng on iPod Touch and iPad plus tried Logitech app. iPeng on iPad by far the best, a little 'busy' so you'll need to familiarise yourself but really quick after that. iPeng on iPod/iPhone is different to use but works well (in a diff way to iPad - its a real estate thing) and follows the iPod/iPhone user interface paradigm well enough. The Logitech app is a poor third.

Not that keen on browser access. Slow and clunky

Not tried the Android alternative(s).

If you have an iPad it deserves iPeng, IMHO.;)

Chris

MartinT
29-06-2012, 17:16
SqueezeRemote for Windows Phone 7 is quite nice, too.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/SBT_WP71.jpg

MCRU
29-06-2012, 17:20
Had a chat with Gazjam on the phone this afternoon, what a thoroughly nice chap he is (for a scotsman).:laugh:

Gazjam
29-06-2012, 17:28
Cheers David,
coming from a Shandy drinking Southerner I know that wasn't easy :)


Bailey Tzuke..?
Anything to Judie?

sq225917
29-06-2012, 17:30
MCRU I saw one of your M2tech EVO PSU's with the added box in the nude today.

That's a nicely built PSU combo for the money, especially the LED biased CCS feedback reg in the second box. Better than I'd expect for the money, you deserve to do well with those. ;-)

MCRU
29-06-2012, 17:40
MCRU I saw one of your M2tech EVO PSU's with the added box in the nude today.

That's a nicely built PSU combo for the money, especially the LED biased CCS feedback reg in the second box. Better than I'd expect for the money, you deserve to do well with those. ;-)

Thanks Simon, much appreciated and thanks for the positive comments. When I manage to get out of the workshop I would like to come down for a listen to your TT.

Ali Tait
29-06-2012, 17:46
Had a chat with Gazjam on the phone this afternoon, what a thoroughly nice chap he is (for a scotsman).:laugh:

Oi, watch it you, or I'll send the boys round. :ner:

brian2957
29-06-2012, 18:00
Can I hold the coats. OH! and I'll bring the handbags for hittin each other with. :D
Brian.

MCRU
29-06-2012, 18:06
Can I hold the coats. OH! and I'll bring the handbags for hittin each other with. :D
Brian.

Actually a squeezebox touch makes a good weapon when thrown with force, take it from me :lol:

MartinT
29-06-2012, 18:09
Bailey Tzuke..?
Anything to Judie?

Daughter. Saw her last year, she was excellent.

Gazjam
29-06-2012, 18:18
Daughter. Saw her last year, she was excellent.

Oh, big fan of her Mum, need to look Bailie up on Spotify.

lurcher
29-06-2012, 19:34
That's a nicely built PSU combo for the money, especially the LED biased CCS feedback reg in the second box. Better than I'd expect for the money, you deserve to do well with those. ;-)

Thanks, I am pleased how that little regulator design has turned out.

sq225917
29-06-2012, 22:06
David, whenever you like I'm always at home. I was in Hudds today at vinyltap as it goes, he's got some stock in there. I went home £130 lighter.

MartinT
29-06-2012, 22:40
Guys - Touch firmware and EDO both updated, all working fine and sounding good.

David - sorry to hijack your thread. As you were...

EDIT: oops, it was Gaz's thread :lol:

Gazjam
30-06-2012, 00:50
Martin,
glad the update went well.

Defo my thread. :ner:

Russell Turner
30-06-2012, 10:18
So can you hear the difference or not between 0.5 and 0.7 then Martin?

MartinT
30-06-2012, 10:28
Not that I could tell, Russell. I went into the EDO 0.7 settings and set it to 'small buffers' and it's sounding excellent.

Russell Turner
30-06-2012, 10:33
You got it running with the Toolbox thingy as well, or just on its own?

MartinT
30-06-2012, 10:35
Just on its own - I don't need the toolbox and I've disabled any applets I don't need.

Russell Turner
30-06-2012, 10:49
I haven't got it loaded either, but I am coming to a conclusion here...

It pains me to say this but I think that my crappy LG DNX190UH DVD/CD player feeding my Bushmaster optically sounds better than the Squeezebox Touch,

The Squeezebox has the updated Mains Cables R Us LDP power supply for DC needs and then it is connected to the Bushmaster using one of Mike's bespoke coaxial leads (the new version).

The CD option is just a whole lot easier to listen to in my opinion, there is just something that gets on my nerves audio wise with the Touch and prevents me relaxing to the music.

Thing is...

Almost all of my music is now in FLAC format, I still have CD's but not hardly what you would call a "collection".

I will do some comparing tests and come to some conclusions on this.

electric beach
30-06-2012, 21:42
Russell, it pains me reading that :lol:

Can you try throwing the bits out of the Touch optically rather than SPDif?

Edit: I have Mike Coax also, I love it, the optical is less detailed but an easier ride.

MartinT
02-07-2012, 20:17
It pains me to say this but I think that my crappy LG DNX190UH DVD/CD player feeding my Bushmaster optically sounds better than the Squeezebox Touch

Hi Russell

I thought I'd test that comparison myself. I extracted a couple of WAV files from favourite CDs and compared the two via my Bushmaster. The CD was put in my Pioneer Blu-ray player used as a trasport, via optical (Kimber) to the BM. The WAV was streamed from my PC to the Touch, then to the BM via co-ax (Chord ProDAC Silver).

They both sounded good and I went back and forth between them without being able to tell any difference. Both Bushmaster and Touch are powered from Paul Hynes power supplies and the latter has the EDO applet. I would have to say, based on this experience, that there's very little in it and the BM is doing a great job of reclocking the data so that source becomes immaterial.

Russell Turner
02-07-2012, 20:35
I did a similar exercise on Saturday...

I think what the significant difference is, is that the Touch has a more "up-front" presentation to music reproduction, possibly slightly less soundstage than a CD source in this instance and this is reflected in the eventual fatigue I get.

Put simply it's just too in your face, not in a massive way, but in my system it was notable, it wasn't a harsh sound it was just a more "here this is IT" kind of thing...

Hard to convey I know but that is what my observation was.

MartinT
02-07-2012, 22:32
Yes, that's interesting. For me, there was no difference in presentation that I could detect. One thing occurs: are you using your Touch with wireless? I'm using cabled ethernet.

Chops
02-07-2012, 22:37
I did a similar exercise on Saturday...

I think what the significant difference is, is that the Touch has a more "up-front" presentation to music reproduction, possibly slightly less soundstage than a CD source in this instance and this is reflected in the eventual fatigue I get.

Put simply it's just too in your face, not in a massive way, but in my system it was notable, it wasn't a harsh sound it was just a more "here this is IT" kind of thing...

Hard to convey I know but that is what my observation was.

Russell, are you using EDO? I compared buffer sizes yesterday and found that the small buffer size sounded more "in your face" than the large buffer size, brighter but with a bit more 'air'. In comparison, the large buffer size was smoother and you could focus more easily on the structure of the music. Small buffer size is my preference, so that's what I've left it as. Worth a try. ;)

Chris

MCRU
04-07-2012, 20:10
Russell, are you using EDO? I compared buffer sizes yesterday and found that the small buffer size sounded more "in your face" than the large buffer size, brighter but with a bit more 'air'. In comparison, the large buffer size was smoother and you could focus more easily on the structure of the music. Small buffer size is my preference, so that's what I've left it as. Worth a try. ;)

Chris

It's a computer really and someone once said to me computers like to be left alone, what a load of b...ox, the touch is a tweakers delight and the best mod I have ever heard was the digital output mod, the touch sounds like a 5k cd player now or better in fact! Keep tweaking guys and remember it's all about the music.

Gazjam
05-07-2012, 16:04
Glad your liking your Touch Dave :)
Sounding good with the MDac?

MCRU
05-07-2012, 18:08
Glad your liking your Touch Dave :)
Sounding good with the MDac?

I can honestly say that Muddy Waters was in my room, the combination of Canor Tube Amp and SB/M-DAC is truly stunning. When I get some spare time I will download my quota of 24 bit flac's off the B&W site as I have not been on for a while. The touch sounds better with a memory stick in the back than through my NAS drive too!

Gaz thanks for doing the mods for me, you are a thoroughly decent chap!:)

MartinT
05-07-2012, 18:42
The touch sounds better with a memory stick in the back than through my NAS drive too!

Interesting - I haven't tried that yet.

Russell Turner
05-07-2012, 19:56
I use an external USB (powered) hard drive and the Small SB Server in the Touch, I was toying with the idea of a 256GB USB or a SSD...

The performance of the SMall SB Server performance isn't great, but I don't need to have my computer on with this configuration.

p.s. What Mods Dave?

MCRU
05-07-2012, 20:05
I use an external USB (powered) hard drive and the Small SB Server in the Touch, I was toying with the idea of a 256GB USB or a SSD...

The performance of the SMall SB Server performance isn't great, but I don't need to have my computer on with this configuration.

p.s. What Mods Dave?

HI,
Not having to have the pc on and nas drive whirring away has its plus points, and you can fill up an sd card, usb hard drive or memory stick with flacs and run them straight into the touch, far easier for me anyway.

Mods, there are far too many but most are the soundchecks mods, the touch will play hi-res files using it's own built in dac AFAIK, gazjam is the man so he will be able to fill you in on all the gubbins. Suffice to say with my Ultimate SB PSU connected (the fully pimped one with kimber cable, furutech fuse and iec etc) and the M-DAC the touch sees off a lot of expensive cd players I have heard.

There is even justification for not using an external DAC if you have a good linear PSU for your Touch as the built in DAC is actually pretty darn good.

Russell Turner
05-07-2012, 21:13
I thought you meant hardware mods... I am aware of the Soundcheck one, and as mentioned previous I use the EDO mod.