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MartinT
01-11-2008, 11:52
So the KAB SL-1210M5GSE is on order and I'm getting everything together that I need. Options ordered are fluid damper, outboard PSU, strobe disabler, tonarm rewire with phonos and Isonoe feet.

I have now acquired an SDS Isoplatmat and a Denon DL-160 cartridge. I already have a Gram Amp 2SE with PSU1-24 upgrade power supply. Still to come is a Sumiko headshell.

I feel that I need a record clamp but am torn between a clamp style and weight style. Which would work better? Weight strikes me as being easier to use. Any recommendations? Have I missed anything else to get me started?

Cotlake
02-11-2008, 03:52
The consideration for record clamp must be based on what the bearing will tolerate. The weight option will be convenient but it could stress the bearing beyond what it was designed to tolerate. I don't know if there is info out there that can help you on this. The clamp option will not expose the bearing to added mass but could cause it to run in a manner not originally intended. You'll need to research this to satisfy yourself what would be best.

Mike
02-11-2008, 11:09
There was a weight type clamp mentioned in HFW recently, I forget the exact one. However it did say that the SL1210 'struggled' with it.

I would second Greg's advice about researching the matter. Personally I might lean toward the clamp type.

Cheers...

Marco
02-11-2008, 13:12
Hi Martin,


So the KAB SL-1210M5GSE is on order and I'm getting everything together that I need. Options ordered are fluid damper, outboard PSU, strobe disabler, tonarm rewire with phonos and Isonoe feet.

I have now acquired an SDS Isoplatmat and a Denon DL-160 cartridge. I already have a Gram Amp 2SE with PSU1-24 upgrade power supply. Still to come is a Sumiko headshell.

I feel that I need a record clamp but am torn between a clamp style and weight style. Which would work better? Weight strikes me as being easier to use. Any recommendations? Have I missed anything else to get me started?

Nice one. I'm sure you'll be delighted with it, so keep us posted of developments. Do bear in mind though that Kevin from KAB is a one-man band and thus his quoted delivery times can be somewhat 'optimistic'. However, he always comes through in the end and the wait is most definitely worth it :)

Regarding clamps, I know you've been used to having them in the past, but having tried numerous ones on the 1210 I wouldn't recommend it. On the 1210, clamps have the effect of over-dampening the sound and killing dynamics - I'm not a fan of it at all and much prefer the effect of having records 'floating freely' on the platter.

Clamps, in my experience, generally only work properly if the turntable they're being used with was originally designed with one in mind, and that's not the case with the 1210. YMMV, of course, but I'd save your money for something else or buy more records!

Marco.

MartinT
02-11-2008, 15:49
Do bear in mind though that Kevin from KAB is a one-man band and thus his quoted delivery times can be somewhat 'optimistic'.

Gosh yes, you're not joking. His approach to accepting my order and sending a link for payment was very sedate, shall we say. Now he says he's awaiting parts for the PSU before completion. I am being very patient as I've done the research and this is what I want, so no worries.

Thanks everyone for the weight/clamp advice, I will tread carefully here.

I was experimenting with the Isoplatmat on my Strathclyde turntable but unfortunately I've not been able to adjust the suspension to compensate for the additional weight so no joy - it rubs against the top of the pulley. I look forward to mounting my Grado Prestige Gold cartridge in another headshell and comparing with the Denon. I predict they will sound very different!

Marco
02-11-2008, 16:23
Yep don't worry about Kevin, Martin. He'll come good in the end :)

What made you go for a DL-160, incidentally, rather than a DL-103? With the right headshell and brass counterweight balance in place, and a good MC phono stage, the 103 sings like a canary in the Technics arm and will seriously exceed anything the 160 (although good) is capable of in this set-up...

Marco.

MartinT
02-11-2008, 19:08
What made you go for a DL-160, incidentally, rather than a DL-103?

Quite simply, I didn't want to change too many components at once and I like the Gram Amp phono stage. It would have meant either swapping phono amp or adding a step-up transformer, both of which have S/N issues. I also like high output MCs and have previously owned an Ultimo 10X and Dynavector 20A, the latter quite superb.

Cartridge upgrades are relatively easy so I could always go low output MC in the future.

Marco
02-11-2008, 20:11
No worries, Martin - gotcha :smoking:

We can always deal with that one later if you want.

Marco.

jonners
02-11-2008, 21:40
I feel that I need a record clamp but am torn between a clamp style and weight style. Which would work better? Weight strikes me as being easier to use. Any recommendations?

I'm not recommending this as such, but it could be a (relatively) cheap way of finding out if a weight is helpful: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-in-1-Record-Weight-LP-Disc-Stabilizer-Turntable-NDD02_W0QQitemZ300243007838QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m300243007838&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1431%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

John

MartinT
02-11-2008, 21:46
Interesting - thanks. I also found this:
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

dmckean
02-11-2008, 22:19
Interesting - thanks. I also found this:
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

The spindle on the Technics probably isn't long enough to work well with this design.

Marco
02-11-2008, 22:29
Dave, I guess that it depends what mat or mats are being used :)

I like some of the T/Ts and tonearms in that picture!

Marco.

dmckean
02-11-2008, 22:57
Marco,

The stock spindle is pretty stumpy, I snapped a few quick pictures. The first two are with no mat at all and my thinnist record and the last two are with my mats 200g vinyl.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2997286828_df20aaed93.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2353/2997284784_92d9bedf91.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2997285772_ca61db0463.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3006/2997285044_fc2ba3f544.jpg?v=0

(Excuse my pathetic photography skills)

muffinman
03-11-2008, 09:24
at around £30 delivered, the michell screw clamp is worth a try. I use one on my 1200 with an sds with cork pads. Plenty of room left on the spindle. They also seem to retain their value so stick it on eBay and you'll get £25 back for it. Fwiw I'm happy with mine. It's there for warped records and is pretty lightweight

Marco
03-11-2008, 09:31
Hi Dave,

It might work and it might not. I guess that it would have to be measured.

Sorry guys, I'm just not into using clamps on the 1210 because sonically I don't think it works, and as for warps, all you're doing is transferring the warp to the outside edge of the record. If you really want to address warps properly you need both a spindle clamp and an outer edge 'ring' in order to make the playing surface completely flat.

All that time-consuming shenanigans makes it a right faff to play a record!

Marco.

MartinT
03-11-2008, 09:59
Since reading up on the 1200 on a few more sites, it seems that getting a plate and mounting a Rega arm is quite straightforward. I will therefore keep my Michell TecnoArm(A) in storage while I assess the Technics arm. That gives me even more options, since the Michell is a very fine arm, approximately RB-1000 performance level.

Marco
03-11-2008, 10:39
Yep, Martin, fitting a Tecnoarm to an SL-1210 is pretty straightforward. However, I'm not sure if I agree that a Tecnoarm is in RB1000 class - certainly my own listening experiences don't bear that out. I guess much depends on the cartridge and T/T used.

I will be very interested on your thoughts though about the modified Technics arm vs. the Tecnoarm when you get a chance to assess things properly :)

Bear in mind though that the arm rewiring takes a while to 'burn-in' fully just like any new cable, and you need to get the silicone fluid damping 'just so' in terms of quantity added to hear the arm at its best. I can advise on this if you wish.

Marco.

MartinT
03-11-2008, 10:45
Thanks Marco. I'm going to be asking a lot of setup questions when I get the 1200. Did you assess the original TecnoArm or the (A) model?

Was playing my Strathclyde yesterday and realised that I've hit its performance limits, can't get any more out of it. Possibly the Grado is limiting things too. Can't wait for the new kit to arrive!

Marco
03-11-2008, 11:04
Hi Martin,

I'm not sure. What's the difference with the 'A' model?

One thing you also need to properly assess the modified Technics arm is a custom-made brass c/w from John (Thrunobulaxx). This makes a significant difference to the arm's performance when using a moving coil cartridge, so if you want to do things properly I would also factor one of those into the equation. They're not expensive - just PM John for details when you've got your deck and fitted the cartridge, as you will need to work out the necessary 'grammage' required for optimal set-up.

No problem, when you get your deck there will be plenty of experienced advice on hand to offer you assistance :)

Marco.

MartinT
03-11-2008, 14:11
What's the difference with the 'A' model?

Hmm, now that you ask I can't find the answer. I was sure there was a pre-A model but I can't find anything about it on the internet. Never mind, scratch my question!

Speaking of arms, I still miss my SME IV after selling it with my Roksan Xerxes many years ago. I don't miss the Roksan at all but I do regret parting with that SME.

Marco
04-11-2008, 18:32
Martin,

The IV and V are good arms but I've always found them to sound a bit 'matter-of-fact', as with most SMEs, but that's purely a personal taste thing.

My passion for tonearms tends to lie in the classic arena. I like high-mass S-shaped detachable headshell arms as they suit the type of cartridges I use and admire. As for SME, I think one of their best arms was the 3012. Fitted with an Ortofon SPU on, say, an SP10 I'm in audio heaven :)

Marco.

MartinT
04-11-2008, 19:38
I have to say the SME IV is a really superb arm and plumbs the depths of bass like no other I know. Strangely, it doesn't sound like a V. For classic, I love the wacky Dynavector DV-505 which a friend used to own and which I spent many a happy hour adjusting. I also have an Audiocraft arm stashed away somewhere, lovely unipivot.

pure sound
04-11-2008, 19:56
I've used an SMEV for perhaps 20 years now. In that time its been on and off various decks and had many different cartridges installed. I can't think of another 'high end' arm that would have withstood the abuse that mine has! And yet, it has never missed a beat. I'd agree that the stock wiring they fit makes it sound somewhat grey & coarse but change it for something decent and you have an arm to last you for life. I've yet to hear an arm that betters it in every area or even that has an equivalent balance of strengths.

Maybe the recently introduced 312S will offer something that the V doesn't while retaining what its good at. Maybe an Ikeda 407 would aswell. But for fit 'n forget high performance and for easy, consistent & repeatable setting up there isn't much thats better.

Marco
04-11-2008, 21:32
I agree, Guy. I think the V sounds much better on an SP10 than it does on an SME! ;)

The phrase 'over-egging the pudding' comes to mind when used with the latter.

Marco.

John
05-11-2008, 18:50
Martin,

My passion for tonearms tends to lie in the classic arena. I like high-mass S-shaped detachable headshell arms as they suit the type of cartridges I use and admire. As for SME, I think one of their best arms was the 3012. Fitted with an Ortofon SPU on, say, an SP10 I'm in audio heaven :)

Marco.

Its interesting the choices we make around the equipment we use, so the guiding force is the sound of your Cartridge which then influnces the arm choice.
For me its the other way around as Cartridges can always be changed and they influnce sound so much. I also know how much difference a really good arm makes as well and it can be a gigantic improvement. Getting that right balance between arm table and Cartridge can make a huge influnce to sound

anubisgrau
18-11-2008, 22:58
Yep don't worry about Kevin, Martin. He'll come good in the end :)

What made you go for a DL-160, incidentally, rather than a DL-103? With the right headshell and brass counterweight balance in place, and a good MC phono stage, the 103 sings like a canary in the Technics arm and will seriously exceed anything the 160 (although good) is capable of in this set-up...

Marco.

are there any instructions on the net for a proper brass counterweight or guidelines for dimensions?

also what is the best reasonable headshell?

scoobs
18-11-2008, 23:16
No, you wont find any dimensions etc for an aftermarket counterweight for the technics arm. From Marco's original requirements and my own trial and error the required diameter of the hole is 14.2mm and the best weight is around 160 grammes preferably broken down into 2 or 3 sections for flexibility. John (thrunobulax) is the man with the skill and tools.

As regards the headshell for the technics, the best type are the heavy(ish) alloy ones with adjustable azimuth like the zupreme, sumiko and audio technica.