Old Radford or ?? [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

busterc

06-09-2011, 18:27

Hi everyone. I'd like to get some advice as I have a few options of which direction to go in for a new hi-fi. I wouldn't call myself a hi-fi enthusiast but I'm a professional musician and would like to get the best listening experience possible for my money/choices. I listen to Rock/Pop/Folk music. No classical or jazz really. My Denon system which I've had for 15 years is in need of replacement.

I own a Radford STA 15 amplifier along with a Radford Preamp. It belonged to my grandfather and had been kept in the loft for many years before I got my hands on it. I took it to someone to have it serviced/restored and it's now fully working. The guy who repaired it as well as the shop which organised the repair raved about how it sounded when they gave it back to me. I've only just got it back myself and haven't listened to it yet. From some investigation I reckon it's worth in the region of £1500 assuming I could find a buyer.

I could keep the radford and buy a CD player to pair with it - I guess spending in the region of £500. However - I wonder whether I might be better off selling the Radford giving me in the region of £2000 to spend on a new system. As I said, I'm not a huge enthusiast or collector, I just want the best possible listening experince. Having said that I do have an appreciation of things like the Radford and have a lot of vintage equipment in my recording studio.

Interested to hear some opions on which option people think might be best. Thanks!

topoxforddoc

06-09-2011, 18:45

Never sell the Radford STA15, unless you become truly minted. It's probably the best push pull valve amplifier ever made. The SC22 is, to be honest, sonically compromised like many 60s valve pre-amps.
If you have a £500 budget, buy an old CD player, like a Meridian 206B for £200 and a Croft Micro preamp for £300. Then just enjoy!
When you have more funds, buy a pair of sorted Quad ESL57s - a match in heaven.

John

06-09-2011, 18:47

The Radford a great amp its a keeper
Unless you wish to give it to me lol

The Grand Wazoo

06-09-2011, 19:03

Paul,
When you've got a moment or two, would you mind going to the Welcome section & starting a new thread to introduce yourself, your equipment & your taste in music (you could probably copy over much of what you've said here actually!)

Anyway, back to the Radford!
I've owned an STA15 for about 20 years - I'm not using it at the moment for all sorts of reasons, but I will never sell it unless it's because I've managed to find some MA15's (the mono version) or another STA15 in better condition than mine (actually, even then, I'd probably still keep it!)

You should take the advice offered above & pair it with a well matched set of speakers and keep it forever. It will make the heart of a fantastic system and you're so lucky to own it.

spendorman

06-09-2011, 19:10

STA15 Mk III?

Any STA15 is a great, no, very great amplifier. Although called STA15, it will actually push out 22 Watts RMS per channel, and will appear even more powerful than that.

I have an STA25 III and SC22 Pre-amp. It is extremely good, but it is sometimes said that the 15 is a little sweeter.

I agree that the SC22 is not as good as the power amp, but it's still a very good and usable pre-amp.

A friend has a very rare STA20 III and SC22, he also has a Quad 77 pre. He reckons that the SC22 is as good as the Quad.

DSJR

06-09-2011, 19:24

Arthur Radford and Quad's Peter Walker did so much for amps in the 1950's, along with others in the US and elsewhere not well known to me and theirs is a truly great and lasting legacy. This is one reason why the STA 15 is so well revered and respected and why it still delivers the goods 50 years or so on. PLEASE, NEVER sell it!!!!!

I agree that a Croft Micro of any vintage would make an excellent inexpensive matching preamp of great transparency potantial. Glenn is delighted to have his old stuff back for a fettling too and they always come back better again for the trip to Croft-Towers ;)

As for a CD player, I tend to steer clear of Meridian players, because of the myriad of internal tweaks various batches went through. I've personally heard this with the 200 series, and the 500 series weren't much better. They're well made though and if you like the one you're going to buy, then go for one :) I'm a huge fan of the Rega CD players, old and new, and an original "clamshell" Planet can still deliver. It's tweakable too (see the Acoustica website). Mid period mid-model Arcams are worth a punt as well, and a Alpha 5+, Alpha 8SE, CD82 and any of the "9" series will be good. I also liked the old MF X-Ray, but am not sure about servicing on these (they may be fine in fairness).

If you need speakers for the Radford, try to get something good, vintage and fairly large, as larger speakers are more efficient and go louder and cleaner with the power you have available. Ditton 33/44/66, Goodmans Magnum/Magister, KEF Concerto/Reference 104ab and at higher used costs, the Spendor S8e's (NOT the S5e's here) and B&W DM1/2/3's should be an excellent vintage match - some of these are still sleepers and may be got at not too silly money. Obviously there are others, but these rolled off the keyboard with no effort :)

Hope this helps...

As for selling on the STA 15, fair enough at £1500, but the thing is, this amp will hold it's value as it's now a venerable classic and may well continue to apprereciate in value. It was properly designed, made with decent bits, especially the transformers, which is what it's all about with these really and is such a charmer to both eyes and ears I can't think of a modern alternative except the Croft amps at anything like this price and even these lack the classic styling. A modern STA 15 would retail for a good few grand now for various reasons (cachet/perceived value as well as cost of transformers) and may not be as good as an original in fine fettle..

Good luck :)

SPS

06-09-2011, 20:36

I sold a mint mk3 sta 15 +pre about 10 years ago,

the radford was very close to the single ended px4 amp i was using at the time, i was very suprised at the quality of it,
i got £800 for it then 10 years ago

the amp speaker/ combo is very important in my view, and a good dac on (nearly) any old half decent player can give a good source..

unless your planning on building valve amps using even more expensive vintage valves than the mullards which are probably in your amp and using very high quality parts... you have been given some very good advice from the above posts

Jonboy

06-09-2011, 21:01

Another vote to keep it, with the right pre and speakers you will struggle to beat it as the others have already said

Wakefield Turntables

06-09-2011, 21:59

hi everyone. I'd like to get some advice as i have a few options of which direction to go in for a new hi-fi. I wouldn't call myself a hi-fi enthusiast but i'm a professional musician and would like to get the best listening experience possible for my money/choices. I listen to rock/pop/folk music. No classical or jazz really. My denon system which i've had for 15 years is in need of replacement.

I own a radford sta 15 amplifier along with a radford preamp. It belonged to my grandfather and had been kept in the loft for many years before i got my hands on it. I took it to someone to have it serviced/restored and it's now fully working. The guy who repaired it as well as the shop which organised the repair raved about how it sounded when they gave it back to me. I've only just got it back myself and haven't listened to it yet. From some investigation i reckon it's worth in the region of £1500 assuming i could find a buyer.

I could keep the radford and buy a cd player to pair with it - i guess spending in the region of £500. However - i wonder whether i might be better off selling the radford giving me in the region of £2000 to spend on a new system. As i said, i'm not a huge enthusiast or collector, i just want the best possible listening experince. Having said that i do have an appreciation of things like the radford and have a lot of vintage equipment in my recording studio.

Interested to hear some opions on which option people think might be best. Thanks!

do not sell your radford it will cost an arm and a leg to get another and you'll regret it! Its the best valve amp ever made period!

busterc

06-09-2011, 23:06

Thanks for all the replies and apologies for not posting in the welcome section first - I have done now! Ok, so I will definitely keep the radford! Judging by the suggestions of a croft preamp, is it best to pair a valve power amp with a valve preamp? Any more cd player suggestions would be much appreciated too!

spendorman

06-09-2011, 23:27

If only using CD and it has a volume control, you could feed that straight in to the STA15, no pre amp

John

07-09-2011, 04:36

Or you can get a DAC and use your computer as already been hinted a good way to get very decent sounds at not too crazy money The Caiman or new Rega dac would be the ideal choices depending on how much you want to spend and the Caiman has a built in pre

IHP

07-09-2011, 06:24

A an owner and huge fan of one of these another vote to keep ! I've partnered mine with a Croft 25 and eastern lectric BBA (think of ot as a single input pre). Excellent results with both, the EE just pips the Croft for me as it has a slighly warmer presentation. This is not suggesting the Croft isn't as good, it's of course down to the presentation you prefer.

Wish I'd kept the Croft now !

Ali Tait

07-09-2011, 08:11

Does it have to be a cd player? Reason being, if you were happy ripping your music to hard drive, a Squeezebox Touch is a very cost effective way of getting great sound. Paired with a decent dac, it will equal or surpass cd players at many times it's cost IMHO.

DSJR

07-09-2011, 09:01

Stan will hopefully jump in here, but one cheapish way to get stunning computer streaming is with an external USB to SPDIF/Optical converter. These things have buffering built in so jitter/interference is eliminated. There's also summat about the standard USB audio implementation not using all the error protocols (is this what the whole asynchronous "thing" is about?).

By the way, the Croft Micro 25 can easily be "warmed up - do some valve swapping and use sensible non-foo interconnects - works every time :)

John

07-09-2011, 09:31

I have used that format in the past and can work really well so no need to get a CD player just a preamp and DAC you can get a cheap pre something like a NAD 3130 and just use as pre to feed the Radford Spendoman does this with good results and used this in the past when funds where tight and found it to be a good solution to getting a cheap pre
AS Ali said using your hard drive and a DAC will give you a great sound

spendorman

07-09-2011, 09:42

The Black Adder

07-09-2011, 17:59

Keep it... Job done. :)

busterc

15-09-2011, 16:11

Looks good spendorman! Your radford is in great condition!

Thanks for your advice everyone, I've decided to definitely keep the Radford.

Not sure if I should start a new thread for this but I'm now on to the next stage of my 'quest' and would appreciate some opinions before I take the plunge on anything. Yesterday I took my Radford pre and power amp to a great local shop that deals in used hifi to try some options and possibly get a cd player. What I found immediately is that my preamp was not satisfying me. I love the character of the Radford power amp but together with the pre the result was a little 'soft'. We connected an audiolab 8200q preamp which immediately tightened things up in a good way. We tried a few different preamps around the same price and then a Meridian 603 which was more expensive but definitely a class above what I'd already tried. It is also a dac so that would take care of my computer and I can add a cd transport using the meridian dac too. I'm trying to build an 'exciting' sounding system with some character. Speakers used in the testing were celestion ditton 15xr by the way.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and sorry for the long post!

Wakefield Turntables

15-09-2011, 18:26

Dont buy anything just yet, you need to try your combo out with different speakers, the Dittons are "fun", I have a pair, but I dont use them, they are in my attic. They are quite limited, I would suggest trying to get another demo with a better pair of speakers.

busterc

15-09-2011, 19:43

hifi_dave

16-09-2011, 01:10

DSJR

16-09-2011, 08:26

TOTALLY AGREE (DSJR in shill mode for Glenn :lol:)

Wakefield Turntables

16-09-2011, 09:40

Thanks for the reply rexton. So do you mean I should try the meridian/radford combo with different speakers to check the meridian is definitely right for me? I will be buying speakers at some point but for now just the preamp.
Any suggestions for speakers? I know everyone talks about the esl 57s with the radford but I definitely won't be able to have anything that sort of size in my room.

You need space for ESL 57's and you really need a pair that are upto scratch as you'll not get the best from them. I agree with the others, you should try a valve pre / power amp combo before you try solid state/amp (but some people prefer this combo). As for speakers, what are your musical preferences. I love power/prog metal i.e. systemic chaos by dream theater, try playing that through some 57's and it'll rip them to bits, especially side B. Try the same album through my ATC ASL50's and the speakers will politely kick 10 bells of $hit out of Mike Pourtney's drum solo, and then still spoil for a fight with the rest of the band :lolsign:, and not drop a note :lol: Now, if I listen to say vivaldi (nigel kennedy), the ASL's loose hands down. Quad/Harbeth/Spendor LS5/a (is that correct??), have been used on Radford's and found to be good. Hope this helps.

Marco

16-09-2011, 11:08

Hi Andrew,

Dont buy anything just yet, you need to try your combo out with different speakers, the Dittons are "fun", I have a pair, but I dont use them, they are in my attic. They are quite limited, I would suggest trying to get another demo with a better pair of speakers.

Whilst there are undoubtedly better speakers than the Dittons (it all depends on what Paul wants to spend), in my experience owning both a pair of 15XRs and 66s, the former are only really "limited" by their size.

Sonically and musically, on the end of the right system, and on Mana stands, they're far better than most speakers of their type today. Basically, the 15XRs sound like a scaled down version of my 66s, as they share the same 'family' sound, and that is one which is extremely musically accurate. They were voiced to be that way in the days when your average listener was rather more discerning than many of those of today.

Only if you like the artificially 'pumped up' sound of most modern speakers, would I disregard the Dittons.

Paul, were the 15XRs, used in the shop, yours? Oh, and keeping the Radford was most definitely the right thing to do. I'd have been extremely shocked if anyone had suggested differently! :eek:

Have you considered replacing/upgrading some of the electrolytic capacitors? Most of these will be well past their 'sell by' date, and so sympathetically replacing them with top-quality modern polypropylene types would undoubtedly give your amp a new lease of life (and in turn allow you to make a more informed choice in terms of speakers, as you'd be hearing more of what your amp is truly capable of).

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

16-09-2011, 11:59

Marco,

I rebuilt a pair of 15Xr's. X-over completely rebuilt, rewired the whole thing with silver, dampened it even further, rotated the drivers, stood them on decent stands (15kg atacamas), new silver plated binding posts etc etc and to my cloth ears still sounded very limited and pants :ner:, buts thats only my opinion. They are ok but I think it would be insulting the Radford if they were partnered together :)

spendorman

16-09-2011, 12:04

B&W DM4's make some nice noises, no good if one wants a loud disco though!

Marco

16-09-2011, 12:07

I rebuilt a pair of 15Xr's. X-over completely rebuilt, rewired the whole thing with silver, dampened it even further, rotated the drivers, stood them on decent stands (15kg atacamas), new silver plated binding posts etc etc and to my cloth ears still sounded very limited and pants , buts thats only my opinion. They are ok but I think it would be insulting the Radford if they were partnered together...

Maybe you f*cked them up then, dude, with all those unnecessary mods? :lol: :ner:

Mine are totally original and sound superb! So we'll have to agree to disagree. Partnered with my Croft preamp and TD Copper amp, which ain't too shabby either (!!) they sound fantastic, and VERY FAR from pants. In fact, I'm listening to them now downstairs in the lounge, as I type, and they're entrancing me with a variety of classical music.

Ones of these days I'll bring them to the Scalford show and hopefully surprise you, and no doubt many others.... ;)

Marco.

P.S Did you use yours with a valve or SS amp?

Wakefield Turntables

16-09-2011, 12:12

I've used them with a number of Amps :-

Quad 77 pre-power combo
A technics amp that I've had for nearly 25 years (cant remember the name)
Radford STAIII

So, they have had a fair crack of the whip.

Marco

16-09-2011, 12:13

Wakefield Turntables

16-09-2011, 14:04

No worries, matey. You may just value different things to me in music reproduction - it would be boring if we were all the same! :)

Incidentally, have you heard the 66s? If so, what did you think of those? I'd be curious to know if you also thought that those were pants, as they sound essentially like my 15XRs, only with more scale, bass and clarity, but the Ditton 'family sonic signature' remains.

Marco.

Marco,

I've never heard the 66's, but to be fair I have heard a pair of 44's hooked up to an Rega turntable and sugden amp (1970's) in my favorite record shop in Huddersfield (Wall of Sound). The 44's sounded great even though the gear looked like it needed a fettle and the speakers were hooked up to 12meters worth of .39p bell wire (yes i know some people rave about this :eyebrows:). I loved what I heard but it still sounded limited compared to the pair of Standmount Spendors that they have upstairs which are considerably smaller in size but seem to give better sonics???? This is of course unfair because they are on a different setup compared to the 44's. I would imagine the 66's sound fantastic as they are the top of the range and have the largest cabinets, hence bigger base, etc, so I would presume give bigger scale, deeper bass levels, improved microdynamics. I think it's fair to say that the further up the Ditton tree you go the better the sonics :scratch::scratch:

DSJR

16-09-2011, 15:35

Ditton 44's are big-n-beefy and there's nowt wrong with that. of course a decent Spendor will be better in the mid - they were designed for high quality speech reproduction in the first instance and in my opinion, contrary to what others have said here, our ears were designed for screaming babies, screaming women (ouch!!! :lol:) and midrange in general - in my opinion..

The bad about many Spendor designs is that they were designed for free-space use and putting them too close to walls and floors makes 'em boom like crazy - better in the later ones, but warm-toned nonetheless.. many Ditton 44's were used on the floor, which again isn't ideal. I have heard them at length on solid stands and Naim driven and they were really good, if still big-n-beefy in presentation. You win some, you lose some with vintage gear...

Ditton 66's (and subsequent 551/661 models) and the directly related Beovox 5702's I knew, were rather less full of themselves, although the bass still packs a wallop I remember. Having seen the pics from the show when marco exhibited his 66's which he'd just bought, I probably wouldn't have placed them so near to the corners of the room, but obviously I wasn't there and old memories can be confusing. back in the days when I had a now much missed Lustraphone amp which went wrong, I went to the engineer's house to collect it and he was driving it on test with 66's. Oooooh yes, by the standards of the day, they were GOOD!!! and much better sized than the big IMF's we used to sell, which were almost as huge as Marco's Lockwood Majors, if not quite as loud :)

Marco

16-09-2011, 16:22

contrary to what others have said here, our ears were designed for screaming babies, screaming women (ouch!!! :lol:)

You've been going out with the wrong women, dude. The only time mine have ever screamed was in the bedroom!! :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Having seen the pics from the show when marco exhibited his 66's which he'd just bought, I probably wouldn't have placed them so near to the corners of the room, but obviously I wasn't there and old memories can be confusing.

Trust me, Dave, after much experimentation, that's where they sounded best. I use them in exactly the same position back home. And bass boom was/is non-existent. That's where the Mana stands come in! ;)

In fact, next year, I intend to put them even closer to the rear wall (but no closer to the corners), and expect things to be even better... :eyebrows:

You'll have to drag yourself away from Suffolk (for a change) and come and hear them for yourself! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

16-09-2011, 19:50

Trust me, Dave, after much experimentation, that's where they sounded best. I use them in exactly the same position back home. And bass boom was/is non-existent. That's where the Mana stands come in! ;)

You'll have to drag yourself away from Suffolk (for a change) and come and hear them for yourself! :cool:

Marco.

Aint wot Alex told me - :ner: - he didn't say they boomed either, but the comment was that there was plenty of bass :D - and this from a Spendor owner too :lol:

I had a trek to Herts to pick up the stuff I was promised. Only a couple of hundred miles or so and did it in a day, but it knackered me. ten years ago, I was doing three hundred miles a day quite often. I'll blame it on the meds :mental: Of the bits I brought home, the LS5/9's HATED the Quad II's with venom, so bad was the noise coming out (the same speakers sounded squeaky clean with a Quad 510F and 30" approx professional open stands). The SME was a joy, but needs an exit cable strategy (either the old four-pin socket or a phono conversion), the Crown preamp needs a new volume pot but I have unexpectedly high hopes for it after hearing hifi dave's sound so good and the Thorens 160 is a standard mk2 in need of some bits to make it original. the plinth could do with a spruce-up as well..

Reid Malenfant

16-09-2011, 20:11

Aint wot Alex told me - :ner: - he didn't say they boomed either, but the comment was that there was plenty of bass :D - and this from a Spendor owner too :lol:
Frankly i think they were set up rather well indeed & i was there to hear them & did so at the same time as Alex ;)

In a different sized room they'd have needed to be in a different position, but in the decent sized room they were in there wasn't very much room re-inforcement until sub 35Hz ish frequencies were produced.

I'm not sure if you know the 66s that well but they are pretty small compared to the driver compliance & this results in a 12DB rolloff from about 35Hz as the "flapping baffle" as you call it (ABR) is tuned lower :eyebrows:

Effectively the room & speaker positioning added a bit to the bass below cutoff so a flatter response was managed to a lower frequency.

I know how loud these things can go as i own a pair myself, even i was surprised at the volume levels they could project into the room they were in & the depth of bass (not forgetting cleanliness) that they managed with no difficulty what so ever :)

Marco did a good job setting them up imho :cool:

Marco

16-09-2011, 20:12

Aint wot Alex told me - - he didn't say they boomed either, but the comment was that there was plenty of bass - and this from a Spendor owner too...

Lol - Alex was right. There was definitely no shortage of bass (although, believe it or not, they still sound rather 'small' compared to my Lockwoods)!! :eek: :eyebrows:

However, if we get the same room again, and knowing what makes the 66s sing, I've got a few ideas of how to get even more from them this time round... ;)

Surely Alex could bring you with him to Scalford, so you don't have to drive anywhere? Come on man, we need to meet up sometime :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

16-09-2011, 20:19

I'll see if I can prise myself away from the Suffolk sunshine :lol:

Marco

16-09-2011, 20:25

Hi Mark,

Frankly i think they were set up rather well indeed & i was there to hear them & did so at the same time as Alex ;)

In a different sized room they'd have needed to be in a different position, but in the decent sized room they were in there wasn't very much room re-inforcement until sub 35Hz ish frequencies were produced.

I'm not sure if you know the 66s that well but they are pretty small compared to the driver compliance & this results in a 12DB rolloff from about 35Hz as the "flapping baffle" as you call it (ABR) is tuned lower :eyebrows:

Effectively the room & speaker positioning added a bit to the bass below cutoff so a flatter response was managed to a lower frequency.

I know how loud these things can go as i own a pair myself, even i was surprised at the volume levels they could project into the room they were in & the depth of bass (not forgetting cleanliness) that they managed with no difficulty what so ever :)

Marco did a good job setting them up imho :cool:

Thanks for your observations. The bit in bold (and what you wrote in the second paragraph) is spot on, and exactly what I was trying to achieve.

Next year we intend to get to the hotel much earlier and spend more time setting up the speakers properly, as well as going out for a curry with the mad boys from Wigwam, which we've always missed so far! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Alex_UK

17-09-2011, 20:45

Hi fellas. First off no one should take any notice of what I say! My comment on the positioning was more to do with imaging than anything else - I suspect what the 66's actually need is a room about 10ft wider!

Marco

17-09-2011, 20:53

Lol - don't worry, daftee, we weren't taking a blind bit of notice! :lol:

Nah, it's fair comment, as there was defo a sweet spot with the 66s, where imaging clicked into place, and if you weren't sitting there, it wasn't quite right.

It's something we'll be working on next year :)

Marco.

IHP

18-09-2011, 08:21

What ever you do, don't buy a pre (especially SS) until you've heard a Croft. They start at 400 quid for a line level jobbie and they work verrrrry well with the Radford.

Wise words, I let my Croft Micro 25 pre go, which I used to use with my Radford 15, and it was a stupid thing to do that I now deeply regret !

busterc

19-09-2011, 09:51

Thanks for all the replies guys. Marco - the 15XR's weren't mine but I'm considering purchasing some. The Radford has been re-capped and serviced and is running great.

I tried lots of preamp combinations and also a few different power amps just so I was really hearing all the options. I went with the Meridian after all, just seemed really musical and classy sounding in my set-up. I may pick up a croft at some point in the future as you guys have suggested, but for now I'm really happy with the radford/meridian system and I tried lots of different options. I also have a rule with myself that I only buy things I've heard in person (after lots of disappointments with studio gear bought on the internet!) as ultimately it's all down to personal taste!

Looking for speakers next and the dittons are definitely a contender. The comment about them being 'fun' is interesting because thats exactly the kind of hi-fi I'm trying to put together - something really musical and engaging to listen to!

Marco

19-09-2011, 13:37

Hi Paul,

Glad you've got your pre and power amps sorted now :)

As for speakers, I can highly recommend of any of the Celestion Dittons, from owning some, and having heard of most of them. Go for a nice pair of the biggest ones you can physically accommodate, and I'm sure you'll be delighted!

Marco.

Jonboy

19-09-2011, 17:55

there was defo a sweet spot with the 66s, where imaging clicked into place, and if you weren't sitting there, it wasn't quite right.

Marco.

They certainly sounded alright from where i was sitting, on the other hand i was having my ears bent at the time by a certain Mr Toy on the joys of cable positioning or something equally as interesting so i might of nodded off for a while :rolleyes::lol:

Not sure i could put up with all those bits of old angle iron stacked on top of each other for stands though :ner: