View Full Version : Platter damping O-Rings Garrard
Historicus
01-11-2008, 09:51
Did someone here try how the damping O-rings, very well sold on ebay by Tony Holley (Colisiumdevelopments.co.uk), effective work on a platter?
Ciao from Rome,
Piero
If you use the original mat, you don't need them :)
Peter Stockwell
03-12-2008, 10:34
I found that the sound is less zingy with the rings, sounds calmer. I used the original mat.
I believe Wills 401 at owston had these.. or something similar, he said it improved the top end,,
it did sound very nice..
steve
Hi Steve,
I think a lot of it was down to the Ortofon cartridge Will used, too, at Owston. Having now obtained one myself I know just how bloody good it is! ;)
You were right, the cartridge is the probably the leveller between Will's 401 and my KAB 1210, especially with the Jelco arm fitted now. It would be very interesting to hear the two side by side again :)
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 17:02
The SL15 is very nice, like a junior SPU. They turn up surprisingly often and at sensible prices too.
Hi Guy,
Thanks for that. I was told it was similar to the SPU. Do you know the history of both cartridges and what the differences are? I'd be really interested to know! :)
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 17:24
Not really, I've had both, they both use Alnico magnets and, if I recall correctly, had aluminium cantilevers and elliptical diamonds. Not a bad recipe.
Some stuff here.
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ortodeccatan.html
I think the SL15 was cheaper than the SPU. The one I had didn't quite sound as big or fine or flowing as the SPU but it was very good and cost me nothing so I wasn't complaining. I'm not sure what the exact technical differences were. I didn't dismantle it to look. I suppose it might be worth asking Ortofon.
You could also ask why they don't make such nice cartridges now! (of course they do still make the SPU)
I thought it had Alnico magnets - I recognise the sound :)
Basically, it pisses all over the 103s, although of a similar character, but before I go into any more detail do you have any idea what the best SUT would be to use with it?
The A23 is not bad (although designed to match the 103) but I could use more gain and perhaps a touch more sparkle, which also suggests loading and impedance aren't yet optimised.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 18:08
They are low output, not quite Io silly but lower than most. A high ratio tranny would suit.
Something like this on its 1:72 setting would be pretty good I'd have thought.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Highphonic-HP-T6S-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-Made-in-Japan_W0QQitemZ260310156572QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item260310156572&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
That seller has some very nice items from time to time. Often had some tasty Koetsu's in the past.
Anyone fancy this?: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/IKEDA-IT-407-GOLD-PLATED-TONEARM-JAPAN_W0QQitemZ270304786986QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn tables?hash=item270304786986&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
:eyebrows:
pure sound
04-12-2008, 18:24
Yes please but in the silver colour!
purite audio
04-12-2008, 18:28
Sticky bearings!
They are low output, not quite Io silly but lower than most. A high ratio tranny would suit.
Something like this on its 1:72 setting would be pretty good I'd have thought.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Highphonic-HP-T6S-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-Made-in-Japan_W0QQitemZ260310156572QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item260310156572&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
Looks interesting, Guy! What about this:
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=60_73&products_id=3025
I don't understand what it means by "Power ratio 25db". Is this an indication of the step-up ratio? If so, does it have as much gain as the one above?
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 19:55
The link doesn't work but
25 dB of gain represents a ratio of about 17:1
the 72:1 ratio would be more like 37dB of gain
I don't know (haven't seen a spec) but I'd guess the A23 has gain more like the first one
I suspected as much. The A23 has a ratio of 20:1, which isn't quite enough for the SL-15, so I guess 72:1 would be about bang on.
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=60_73&products_id=3025
That should work - it does for me.
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 20:13
Does for me now, didn't the first time. ???
I guess that the Ortofon isn't really suitable then?
I'm swithering between the Highphonic and the Ortofon SPU version of the A23:
http://www.shindolabs.com/auditorium23/a23stepup.html
I would imagine the SPU version would work well with the SL-15. Which one would you go for? :)
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 21:10
I'll be honest & say I've no idea! The Highphonic looks to have the gain needed and will doubtless sound very good. There's someone on Wigwam who has one & used it with an Io but still needed a bit more gain so bought an ANUK S8.
There are no specs given for the A23 either in the review or on the A23 website so I can't really offer a view. The reviewer obviously likes it but uses a Planar 3 & Shindo stuff which seems an odd combination.
The Highphonic is useful in that it also does have a 20x setting too which means it'll have the flexibility to be used with just about any cartridge you ever get. if pushed it'd probably be that one I'd choose if their respective prices are similar.
Thanks for that, Guy - appreciated :)
I'll see if I can get the A23 SPU SUT specifications from the designer Keith Aschenbrenner. I have his contact details somewhere. He might also be able to offer advice if the SL-15 has very similar requirements to an SPU.
I suspect that's the case, do you?
Also, with the Highphonic it says: "Input Impedance 3-40 ohm". Does that mean it's adjustable? If so, I can't see can any switches which allow adjustment - or does it mean something else?
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 21:40
It'll have two primary windings which can either be connected in parallel to give the lower impedance (high ratio) or in series to give the higher impedance (lower step up ratio)
Each position will be selectable by that big knob on the front saying Low / High !
LOL. I thought that was for selecting low and high gain (72:1 or the lower option)? If not, where is the gain selector? Or are both incorporated into that one big knob on the front? :)
You have to remember I know nothing about these sorts of things!
Marco.
pure sound
04-12-2008, 23:37
The High low switch does change the transformer configuration between 20:1 and 72:1
The effect is that of changing the load seen by the cartridge. If this transformer is connected to a 47K input mm stage it will present 9 ohms to the cartridge when on its 72:1 setting and 117.5 ohms when on its 20:1 setting.
The higher ratio position will probably give greater gain although it may not necessarily be the best position for every cartridge. I imagine it would suit the Ortofon quite well though.
Ah, gotcha now. See, you have to remember I'm completely non-technical :)
I'm going to see if I can get a loan of an A23 SPU transformer and try it with the SL-15. I have some contacts and I've been talking to Jonathan from Shindo. If I like it I'll buy it, if not I'll go for the Highphonic. I'll tell you what though the SL-15 is bloody fantastic. It goes much deeper than the 103, which is saying something, and it handles all sorts of music much more effortlessly. It has a lovely 'tone' - very 103-like but with oodles more finesse. When I get the SUT right I'll be a very happy bunny! :cool:
Marco.
pure sound
05-12-2008, 00:00
Good stuff. The 103 is good for the price & hints at what might be but ultimately falls a little short in terms of finesse (& fluidity) when up against something like that or a SPU.
I think Henley have finally woken up to the potential for selling SPU's in the UK, it must be difficult to explain the continued appeal of this anachronism alongside the modern Ortofons. I think they'll even be looking at doing the arms properly too.
Spec for SL15
Weight of Pickup Cartridge..............................7 Grams
Output impedance......................................... .. 2 Ohms
Recommended load impedance per channel..... 1.5 Ohms
Equivalent mass (at stylus point)....................... 0.9 Mgs.
Recommended stylus pressure......................... 3/4 - 1 1/2 Grams
Output in MV/CM/Sec (loaded)..................... 0.04 MV.
Stylus Tip Radius - Eliptical............................. .0007" x .0003"
Frequency Response...................................... 10-40,000 HZ
Vertical Tracking Angle.................................. 15 Degrees
Channel Seperation at 1000 HZ..................... 20-30 db
I just thought you might be interested :)
An anachronism the SPU may be, but as you and I both know classic cartridges like these sound musical in a way that no modern cartridge can match (your Io is an exception to the rule in that respect). It's the Alnico magnet thing!
Most modern cartridges sound artificial to me, completely unmusical, and are too bright and clinical sounding in comparison.
SPUs soldier on because fortunately there are sufficient discerning music and audio enthusiasts around who know how special they are and continue to buy them. I'd champion their existence all day long!
I've also got a classic NOS Shure M75 MM in an original SME headshell coming my way from Ebay - not quite in the same class as the SL-15 but it should be a bit of fun :smoking:
Marco.
Rare Bird
05-12-2008, 07:10
When i owned a Garrard '401' i fitted 'O'rings to platter., i worked for a well known enigneering company at the time i which i kinda got them free gratis .lol.
The differences fitted i though a waste of time until i listerned more in which i found a very slight improvement.nothing i couldnt live without
pure sound
05-12-2008, 08:28
0.04 mV output is very low. You will need a high ratio transformer.
It's probably low because there aren't too many turns in the coiils. (a good thing imho)
Yep, I can tell because I have to turn the volume up on the preamp about twice the amount to achieve the same level as I do with the DL-103s (R and Pro) and the A23.
Do you think the Highphonic is likely to have enough gain to cope?
Marco.
purite audio
05-12-2008, 10:13
At this years Munich show we could swop between an SPU ( an 85 anniversary ? ) and a contemporary Ortofon a Winston ? perhaps, the only person who preferred the SPU was Kevin Scott, who thought it sounded 'charming'.
Persoanlly I will stick tothe modern one, better bas more extended treble and yet still a very beautiful midrange.
pure sound
05-12-2008, 10:53
LOL, he told me. He said the other cartridge just sounded too 'hifi'. He did also feel they should use some better & more challenging music aswell although he likes alot of what the speakers do and appreciates the very serious effort behind them.
pure sound
05-12-2008, 10:57
Yep, I can tell because I have to turn the volume up on the preamp about twice the amount to achieve the same level as I do with the DL-103s (R and Pro) and the A23.
Do you think the Highphonic is likely to have enough gain to cope?
Marco.
Yes. 72:1 will be enough.
It better be or you are into this territory!
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/kondo-ksl-sf-z-5_LRG.jpg
purite audio
05-12-2008, 11:04
MJ he was kind enough to spend quite some time in the room, there were some glances exchanged ,when he said he preferred the SPU though! It's a nice enough cart i can see why people like them just a little too Barbera Cartland for me though!
'better and more challenging music' I didn't realise music was graded, like ski runs?
At this years Munich show we could swop between an SPU ( an 85 anniversary ? ) and a contemporary Ortofon a Winston ? perhaps, the only person who preferred the SPU was Kevin Scott, who thought it sounded 'charming'.
Persoanlly I will stick tothe modern one, better bas more extended treble and yet still a very beautiful midrange.
Hi Keith,
I don't doubt your findings, but again it's simply a matter of preference and also optimising a specific cartridge with the correct ancillaries - this is crucial if relevant and meaningful conclusions are to be reached. I've not heard the Windfeld but it would have to be something special for me to prefer it to any SPU. Getting the most out of an SPU and hearing it at its full potential though is tricky - it is very fussy of T/T, arm and phono stage, therefore very fussy indeed.
Personally I wouldn't use it out with of a properly mounted D/D deck (SP10, etc) or an equivalent Garrard with a suitable high-mass 12" arm, through a valve phono stage and high quality SUT. Anything else is simply pissing in the wind.
What was the set-up at the show?
Marco.
P.S Guy, love it! :eyebrows:
pure sound
05-12-2008, 12:12
MJ he was kind enough to spend quite some time in the room, there were some glances exchanged ,when he said he preferred the SPU though! It's a nice enough cart i can see why people like them just a little too Barbera Cartland for me though!
'better and more challenging music' I didn't realise music was graded, like ski runs?
When the music is less 'Barbara Cartland' & more 'William Boyd or Don DeLillo' then the benefits of something like an SPU also become more apparent!
purite audio
05-12-2008, 12:51
Phew ! Just been listening to some Bruckner ( Double black diamond- rated ) exhausted
Just enough energy to reply to you pair of old grandads!
Hehe... I prefer Shostakovich, myself ;)
I like dark and brooding!
Marco.
purite audio
05-12-2008, 13:53
Marco I can only picture you and Guy in pink from now on.
Well I believe Guy has a pink tutu which he keeps for those 'special occasions' ;)
Marco.
pure sound
05-12-2008, 14:48
damn right! few & far between nowadays tho'
purite audio
05-12-2008, 15:05
Whens that new preamp of yours going to be available, I may let you listen to it in a decent system MJ one with bass and treble !
pure sound
05-12-2008, 17:02
Sounds promising Keith, who do you know who's got one? ;)
I took it around to lots of dealers last week, but its up in Scotland now & I'm missing it
purite audio
05-12-2008, 17:07
Two crackers in one day ( I also enjoyed the Natalie Cole 'unforgettable' on the Wam) glad to see that time has not diminished you ,not in that department anyway!
Very best Keith.
purite audio
05-12-2008, 17:45
Guy Hi, it would be great to see you, and hear the pre, it would be quite interesting to compare it to one of Mr Parks, has Kevin finalised his horns, what has he settled on?
oh still looking around for a you know what dd looks promising ! Keith.
Some info about the SL-15
1960's SPU the SL-15 cost $60.00 with the 2-15k transformers it cost $75.00 the 2-15k on its own was $20.00.
The S-15T had the 2-15k mounted in the headshell cost $80.00.
The S-15MT had them enclosed in the cartridge case cost $85.00.
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