Mr Tiefenbrun has seen the light - again - apparently

[Neil McCauley]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1ae2e2c0-a512-11dd-b4f5-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

If you can’t stomach the rhetoric, the punch line is this:

“We made mistakes,” he says, “but that does not mean we became a bad company. I believe we are now in a good position to do well in the next few years.”

Meanwhile, the quote from a (I know which side my bread is buttered on - Jimmy) retailer is priceless. Really.

---//---

[sastusbulbas]

Oh come off it, how can we call him a Pillock?

He took someone else's design, put his name on it, and made money by selling it with some spin.
Plenty of others in the audio industry still do this with no reprimand or such, just a slap on the back from forum members for a good deal.

[Mike]

Dead easy... just watch.

Pillock! :)

[David Price]

Whatever you might think about his products, I think we have to agree Ivor is (was) one of the most naturally gifted and erudite communicators in the hi-fi industry; he brought a lot of people into hi-fi (and still is). I also think he's right about streaming; whether we like it or not it's how the world will be consuming/playing its music in the future. With the exception of us vinylistas, of course! :) I'm also happy for him personally, and for Linn, that he has got through his illness - I wouldn't wish that on anybody. The trick is for him now to reinvent Linn - post Loewe and Aston Martin. It's going to be interesting where he takes it...

[Steve Toy]

Ivor is one of those "characters" in this industry I guess and some of the methods adopted by the major UK brands in general for maintaining dominance in the market place certainly don't seem to meet with everyone's approval... (and this can include me btw).

However, Linn have made a few products that I'd consider to be fairly decent over the years. In general Linn kit, despite all its flaws for some is about musical enjoyment/involvement first and foremost rather than just playing musical wallpaper. Also I'd like to avoid negativity on AOS where possible. We are here to discuss gear we like in preference to gear we don't.

[Mike]

Also I'd like to avoid negativity on AOS where possible. We are here to discuss gear we like in preference to gear we don't.

Thats a good point Steve, I'll delete my post above as its rather rude.

[alb]

Also I'd like to avoid negativity on AOS where possible

Here's some positivity instead.

I quite liked my Linn Genki!

[Marco]

I sympathise and understand Mike's frustration but as a businessman myself I can't help but admire Ivor. Regardless of anything else, he is most certainly 'switched on' as an entrepreneur and has enjoyed more success than failures so I'm sure Linn will be successful again in the future.

As for Linn as a company, I find them innovative and forward-thinking; their products are well-made and generally offer very good performance, if somewhat overpriced, but these days it's not really my thing apart from perhaps the Akurate DS which I may be interested in buying.

Linn products I rate highly and/or have owned:

1) LP12 (in its 'Valhalla' form with Grace arm and Supex cartridge).

2) Original Ittok.

3) Karma, Trak, Asak and Troika cartridges.

4) Kan (any vintage), Index, Isobarik, Keilidh, Kaber, and Keltik loudspeakers.

5) Kremlin tuner.

6) Karik/Numerik transport and DAC, CD12 CDP.

In my opinion the above products represent Linn at its best - some were genuine landmark products and truly exceptional. I personally can't see them getting back to the 'glory days' of those products and indeed I suspect neither would they be interested in doing so.

Marco.

[Mike]

I sympathise and understand Mike's frustration but as a businessman myself I can't help but admire Ivor.

To be fair to Mr T, I should point out that my wrath is really directed at one of his (now defunct) dealers. My comments were misdirected and therefore I retract them. Sorry. :(

[Neil McCauley]

Whatever you might think about his products, I think we have to agree Ivor is (was) one of the most naturally gifted and erudite communicators in the hi-fi industry.

But not quite good enough to have saved the jobs of so many who through no fault of their own were made redundant now was it? It's a constructive lesson I think.

Just compare the Linn approach - as a business enterprise - with that of REGA in terms of (a) supplying equipment that people want (b) at a price they think is fine value. And then consider the contrast between the corporate image or brand value if you prefer. It seems to me that while one of the makes is busy (or rather, was busy) ploughing the innovation furrow for innovation's sake, the other was sensibly 'thinking inside the box' and focusing on delivering tangible benefits - that meant something to the target market - at a reasonable price - to the benefit of everyone concerned.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, have REGA ever complained publicly that Government was a contributor to the current manufacturing plight? I guess that with what is probably a bulging order book, they have little time for finger pointing.

I have no commercial relationship with either REGA nor Linn.

---//---

[Filterlab]

...4) Kan (any vintage), Index, Isobarik, Keilidh, Kaber, and Keltik loudspeakers....

I remember the Keltik's being exceptional, however recalling the '95 Sound & Vision show in Earl's Court there were two Linn listening rooms; one with a £2,000 set-up and the other with a £20,000 set-up. The £2,000 set-up was the superior one to my ears, and my friend's ears too. That showed either a massive mismatch on the top-end system or a startling combination at the lower end. Either way, in isolation both systems sounded very good, and Linn have a reputation for quality engineering and quality products that are still 'single stage' built on home turf - not many manufacturers can claim that these days. Their products are still competitive and they've a huge following too.

I've not experienced many Linn products, but I've never heard a bad one. Most manufacturing companies in the electronics industry make errors at some point, even the huge and successful ones (Sony - Betamax, Apple - Newton, Microsoft - Vista, Panasonic - 3DO etc etc), but that doesn't negate their success overall.

[Mike]

products that are still 'single stage' built on home turf

What about their arms & cartridges? ;)

[Filterlab]

I've no idea, just what I read.

[Marco]

I remember the Keltik's being exceptional, however recalling the '95 Sound & Vision show in Earl's Court there were two Linn listening rooms; one with a £2,000 set-up and the other with a £20,000 set-up. The £2,000 set-up was the superior one to my ears, and my friend's ears too. That showed either a massive mismatch on the top-end system or a startling combination at the lower end.


Linn (like Naim) for some reason rarely make a good sound at shows. I had a similar experience with one of their demos at a show a few years later where they were demonstrating the CD12 and their (then) top amps with a pair of £15k (I think) Komri loudspeakers at the end - it sounded dreadful. It was all boom 'n' tizz with little if any finesse, and yet I know how fantastic the CD12 could sound in a different system.

It turned out it was largely the speakers at fault - Linn really lost the plot with that particular design. The Keltiks would have murdered them! I think that with some of their current speakers they've got back on track but consistency of quality with Linn these days isn't the same as it was for example in the early 90s, when they hit a bit of a purple patch.

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

It turned out it was largely the speakers at fault - Linn really lost the plot with that particular design.
Marco.

As I said in a previous thread, curious isn't it that none of the UK audio magazines reported this. None of them!

Once again, the reviewing principles that are applied to the fresh industry entrants by UK audio magazines are not applied to the big hitters.

If on the other hand the magazines didn't spot this, then what does that say about the efficacy?

---//---

[griffo104]

Linn (like Naim) for some reason rarely make a good sound at shows. I had a similar experience with one of their demos at a show a few years later where they were demonstrating the CD12 and their (then) top amps with a pair of £15k (I think) Komri loudspeakers at the end - it sounded dreadful. It was all boom 'n' tizz with little if any finesse, and yet I know how fantastic the CD12 could sound in a different system.

It turned out it was largely the speakers at fault - Linn really lost the plot with that particular design. The Keltiks would have murdered them! I think that with some of their current speakers they've got back on track but consistency of quality with Linn these days isn't the same as it was for example in the early 90s, when they hit a bit of a purple patch.

Marco.

Marco, as a Linnie I agree with you. But without the technology and new driver array they came up with in the Komri then hte newer, and far better speakers imo, such as the Artikulate and Akurates wouldn't have been possible.

The Komris weren't perfect but they helped design a cheaper and better speaker in the long run.

I still enjoy my Active Linn setup and still haven't heard much at the price I paid that would make me want to swap it. I thinik they did make a mistake in removing the LK series but the Magik replacement is a very good musical system.

As for the products you mentioned, I think one of the very best Linn made was the Classik. They were slagged off for going all midi and Currys with this this and yet it brought a lot of people to 'proper' hifi and makes and excellent 2nd system for the bedroom. It's well made and sounds very good.

I agree the with you about the best LP12 - the Valhalla ones pre Cirkus were just SO much fun to listen to. I still kick myself for being pulled in to that upgrade path.

Having recently got to listen to the Magik DS, I think Linn have made a good business decision here instead of going to HDD based devices such as the HDX. Linn learnt from the Kivor that they can't do what a computer manufacturer can do, and at a much lower cost, so have concentrated on what they do know - dacs and music playback. The Magik DS is a good view on how digital music WILL be played in the not too distant future.

Of course the Orbe will still be the first choice for really enjoying music :ner:

[Cotlake]

What about their arms & cartridges? ;)

Japanese I believe.

[shane]

Japanese I believe.

It's all in the names. The Ittok was designed by a Japanese gentleman named Mr Itto.

[Mike]

Yep!... Not really 'home turf'. :eyebrows:

[Neil McCauley]

It's all in the names. The Ittok was designed by a Japanese gentleman named Mr Itto.

Ivor T told me when me met in the 1980s that the Ittock was built by Mamiya, the Japanese camera maker. Certainly the standard of finish was in that class.

---//---

[Prince of Darkness]

Whereas the Ekos, whilst based on the Ittock, is made in Scotland, hence the name (Ecosse = Scotland).:lolsign:

[Marco]

The question is does "Ittock" have a 'c' in it or not? ;)

Marco.

[Mike]

The question is does "Ittock" have a 'c' in it or not? ;)

Marco.

No!..... it's 'Ittok'.

[Mike]

Whereas the Ekos, whilst based on the Ittock, is made in Scotland, hence the name (Ecosse = Scotland).:lolsign:

I could be wrong (I'm good at that) but I think the Ekos is only 'finished' in Scotland. eg. Assembled from parts manufactured in Japan. I've no idea where I heard that though.

[Prince of Darkness]

Well spotted Marco! My spelling was confused by the Ticktock nickname.:eyebrows:

[Marco]

No!..... it's 'Ittok'.

Exactly! But some of our resident 'numpties' seem to want to keep adding a bloody 'c' :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

[Marco]

You're not alone, Kevin! :lol:

Marco.

[Prince of Darkness]

I could be wrong (I'm good at that) but I think the Ekos is only 'finished' in Scotland. eg. Assembled from parts manufactured in Japan. I've no idea where I heard that though.

Would not surprise me. Certainly if the Ittok:) was made by Mamiya, as Howard states, then Linn would be unlikely to better the quality.

[Marco]

So Shane was taking the piss then with the 'Mr Itto' thing?

Marco.

[shane]

No, just repeating what I thought was common knowledge when it came out. Can't find anything to substantiate the story at the moment, but it was definitely and demonstrably Japanese in origin. The giveaway is the Made In Japan legend on the back of the arm base! http://www.soundscapehifi.com/images/lp12-001-12.jpg

As for the cartridges, I'm pretty sure the MCs were Japanese, but I don't recall who made them. IIRC the K9 was made by Audio Technica.

[pure sound]

The Mamiya story may or may not be true but personally I'd doubt it as I once definitely saw the Ittok (without screen printing) in the catalogue of what I'm sure was a Japanese oem supplier along with various other arms. Not Jelco but someone like that.

EDIT

Actually a subsequent websearch reveals this which sounds about right.

"Originally manufactured for Linn by the Denon Parts Company of Japan (no
relation to the electronics brand), it was designed by a certain Mr Ito to
Linn's specification back in the late seventies. The Tik-Tok (as fans called
it) evolved over the years with various detail changes (such as a new
counterweight), until it reached its LVIII incarnation in 1989. This last
version of the Ittok was undoubtedly the best, featuring Ekos-style glued
armtube joints. By this time, the price had risen from the original £230 to
over £450." ...David Price

I think the Mamiya story was perhaps wishful thinking!

[shane]

Thanks Guy, I was sure I'd heard it somewhere!

[David Price]

For the complete anoraks here, his name would be written as 'Ito', and pronounced "ee-toe' in Japanese. There was a big Japanese connection with Linn in the mid seventies, not least the Grace arm. I also believe the Asak was a Supex (but could be wrong). Someone's got to get the low-down on all these hazy recollections of late-seventies Linn - I suppose it's got to be me. Doh!

My two cents; I thought the Kan I was brilliant, as was the Karik III, and the Ittok LVIII. Ironically, the latter was one of the best ever arms I've partnered with my GyroDec! With a Supex SD900V cartridge it was dynamite.

[Neil McCauley]

There was a big Japanese connection with Linn in the mid seventies, not least the Grace arm. I also believe the Asak was a Supex (but could be wrong).

Meanwhile ........

I believe that Mr T was quoted thus:

"Our approach has never been to give up and outsource to China or wherever. You might call it a genetic flaw on my part,” said Tiefenbrun.”

You can read the story in The Herald - with the above quote - here: http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1335339.mostviewed.linn_staff_face _up_to_job_cuts.php

The word “never” seems unambiguous to me. So given this, what’s your view David P?


---//---

[shane]

The word “never” seems unambiguous to me.



About as unambiguous as the words "Made In Japan" on the base of every Ittok.

[Dave Cawley]

Audio Technica made some of Linn's cartridges. Can't remember which though....

Take a look at the Ittock bias compensator, then look at the Jelco one, identical? Second picture on www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm

The Jelco Rep of that era told me he sold to Linn, and a lot of other people too. David & Adam are reviewing a trio of arms soon, watch this space? And look at Hi Fi World December 2008 page 65?

But about Linn, they did a good job and didn't really produce anything that bad. But speak to Max Townsend about dealer brainwashing in the 80's?

Regards

Dave

[Neil McCauley]

But about Linn, they did a good job ..........

Regards

Dave

I've heard this, repeated mantra-like, since what seems like the beginning of time.

Q1. Err, what does this phrase mean?

Q2. Good job for who? The Directors - or the scores and scores of redundant staff perhaps? Or the investors, or ........?

I'd really like to have my ignorance confounded, rather than compounded. Can you help?

Thanks

HP

---//---

[i_should_coco]

Audio Technica made some of Linn's cartridges. Can't remember which though....



And I believe the Akiva (?) is sourced from Lyra....

[David Price]

I believe Jonathon Carr (Lyra) designed the Arkiv, then Akiva. That's no bad thing. As for Linn never outsourcing, well maybe Ivor's forgotten about his early years! But didn't they bring Ittok production in house sometime in the mid-eighties? I remember stories about the fabled 'Scottish Ittoks'. Certainly the Ekos is made in Glasgow, as I saw them being made with my very eyes. Still, his 'substantive point' is that Linn is a manufacturing company, a Scottish one and a British one, and he is right, and I think that is a great (and rare) thing nowadays. As Howard knows, soooo many brands are now designed in the UK by a handful of people then made in China by thousands. I think that's a shame. Not because I am anti Chinese or racist (my wife is Chinese!), but because the UK **must** have some manufacturing industry. We can't build our future on banking and burger bars - as recent events show.

[griffo104]

The latest version of the Kan and the Keosa Floorstander were outsourced (to a company in either Japan or China) - and you could tell. Pretty awful speakers in horrid black vinyl wrap which were an attempt to get a budget speaker on the market. The Kan was ok but not as good as a Wharfedale diamond, which was much cheaper, or the cheaper efforts from the likes of Tannoy but the Keosa was just not very good at all and wasn't that much cheaper than the far better Keilidh.

Also don't Goldring make the Adikt for Linn ?

I always liked the fact that all my Linn gear had a sticker on the back of it giving the name of the person who assembled and tested the units.

[Neil McCauley]

As for Linn never outsourcing, well maybe Ivor's forgotten about his early years! .

How convenient!

---//---

[Neil McCauley]

Still, his 'substantive point' is that Linn is a manufacturing company, a Scottish one and a British one, and he is right, and I think that is a great (and rare) thing nowadays. .......... but because the UK **must** have some manufacturing industry. We can't build our future on banking and burger bars - as recent events show.

David, your response in this instance is I believe disingenuous and I believe you know it!

'Substantive point' – in the context of such blatant misinformation? George Orwell would have been so proud!

This to me typifies the unilateral view taken throughout the UK audio magazine arena that some companies can do no wrong - ergo those companies typify infallibility. This of course conveniently ignoring the facts, as appears to have been overlooked, that the company through failing to produce products that people wanted to buy in sufficient quantity, led to scores of redundancies.

Meanwhile, it seems according to the great leader that the UK Government is to blame! I'm surprised that Aston Martin weren't similarly cited.

Curious then that Rega, as one illustrative example, don’t cite the Government as a scapegoat. As far as I'm aware, Rega continue to produce – in volume – products that people want to buy at prices that buyers perceive as good value. Surely David, the contrast with Linn’s public face couldn’t be starker?

I agree that this country cannot built its future on banks and burger bars. Similarly our miniscule industry cannot continue with its blind adherence to nostalgia, sentimentality and worst of all, selective commentary from what was assumed to be a free press. Please David ....... prove me wrong.

The answer, if indeed it isn’t too late, is for makers to supply the market with products that people want at prices they perceive as both affordable and of value. That's what the Apple i-pod is all about - in commercial terms. If you can envisage a more practical response, I’d love to hear it.

Being, as it seems to me, an apologist for poor management, lack of foresight, corporate arrogance and hubris - is the road to disaster.

Meanwhile, a little homework if you feel inclined. Using 1983 as a convenient starting point, why not look at the 'start' prices of the Michell Gyro and LP12 - and chart the comparative rise in price during the 25 years since then. You'll probably agree that both companies have progressively improved their products during the period. Possibly you'll agree that today, as was the case 25 years ago, that the sonic differences are not substantial. The RRP differences today are though. The LP12 was, from memory about 30% more expensive than the Gyro in 1982. The percentage differential today is staggering. Meanwhile Michell Engineering, Rega, Avid, Funk, Nottingham Analogue and so on operate with the same Government in power as Linn do. Nuff said?

---//---

[griffo104]

Linn made a couple of poor business decisions, imo , which lead to their downfall a little.
1. The Unidisk players. As good as these are, and they are very good, most high end hifi manufacturers were simply getting a cheap Pioneer universal player, adding in a fancy PSU and the odd better component (all this is arguable) and selling them on at a huge price difference over the original player. Linn made the mistake of trying to design one from the ground up and even though they got in league with Sony and another digital specialist, it still meant that they had much more R'n'D costs then their competitors and subsequently the price of the components was also too high. The Unidisk was good but it didn't offer that much better performance over the Denon DVD2900 (I bought one of these over a Unidisk and still love the player to bits).

2. Getting rid of the LK range. I liked the LK range, it was affordable, reliable and compact. I liked the upgrade to active, I liked the sneaky tuner. Getting rid of that meant you went from the Classik straight up to the Majik range. I like the Majik range but the minimum it's going to cost is £7k, then add extra power amps and go active an it clear £10k. I went active with mk LK gear (including speakers and 3 amps) for about £4k.

3. Howard's great oint at the bottom there. The LP12 may be iconic, and a decent deck, but a lot of it's main contenders offer decks that out perform it at considerably less cost. He mentions the LP12 v Gyro. When I was getting in to vinyl a lot of people were swapping LP12s for Gyro, I swapped mine for an Orbe SE. No contest, the Michell is a better deck, more modern thinking, looks great, superb build and Michell are a great company to deal with. As are most of the others Howard mentions. Linn can't kill the LP12 but it needs to go back to being competitive and make people want to add back to the list of desirable decks.

[Neil McCauley]

The LP12 may be iconic, and a decent deck, but a lot of it's main contenders offer decks that out perform it at considerably less cost. Linn can't kill the LP12 but it needs to go back to being competitive and make people want to add back to the list of desirable decks.

Mission impossible.

Comparable in difficulty to making the World's finest slide rule in the age of pocket calculators.

To achieve longevity of the LP12 would need the corporate intellect that Porsche have applied to the seemingly immortal 911. Given recent strategic mishaps at Linn (cogently cited by you earlier, and thank you), coupled with what I believe is monumental arrogance and a lack of humility, I can't see it happening. For sake of the workforce I hope I'm wrong.

---//---

[griffo104]

Mission impossible.

Comparable in difficulty to making the World's finest slide rule in the age of pocket calculators.

To achieve longevity of the LP12 would need the corporate intellect that Porsche have applied to the seemingly immortal 911. Given recent strategic mishaps at Linn (cogently cited by you earlier, and thank you), coupled with what I believe is monumental arrogance and a lack of humility, I can't see it happening. For sake of the workforce I hope I'm wrong.

---//---

I wouldn't disgree with you there. A new LP12 with the new Ekos, Keel, Akiva and Linto phono is worryingly expensive compared to other decks out there at the moment, and as mentioned with regards to the uk mags and uk manufacturers, we are seeing some great decks coming from outside the UK. These are being more readily available and thanks to the internet are also allowing people to purchase and import them if they are willing to take the gamble.

The LP12 has that classic turntable look, which is timeless, but it's become the bargain 2nd hand deck rather than new desirable purchase.

Look at Rega, who you correctly point out. they now have decks at most price ranges and the differences are quite easy to spot, better RB arms, better motors, different platter materials but all essentially a similar design, similar styles. Linn brought the Majik LP12 out, not a rethinking or a redesign which they would have been capable off but an old Valhalla style deck with somebody else's arm on it.

It hasn't re-invented the LP12 at a lower price bracket but simply regurgitated it. Why buy that when you could get a classik Valhalla LP12 with an Ittok for less than half the price of the Majik ? Are you really going to chose the Majik LP12 against a modern Gyro/Technoarm ? Very doubtful.

I do think with the new DS components Linn have made a GOOD decision in dripping hard drive based systems, something Naim will realise with the poorly priced and specced HDX, but in other areas Linn have to rebuild what people like myself were first drawn to them as a manufacturer of hifi gear.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Using 1983 as a convenient starting point, why not look at the 'start' prices of the Michell Gyro and LP12 - and chart the comparative rise in price during the 25 years since then. You'll probably agree that both companies have progressively improved their products during the period. Possibly you'll agree that today, as was the case 25 years ago, that the sonic differences are not substantial. The RRP differences today are though. .............. The percentage differential today is staggering. Meanwhile Michell Engineering, Rega, Avid, Funk, Nottingham Analogue and so on operate with the same Government in power as Linn do. Nuff said?

The most outrageous example of this pricing policy is, I believe, the case of the Akito tonearm.

In 1986 the LVX was £114 while an RB300 was £90.
The Akito, although a little better than the LVX (also made in Japan by the way), it's not by that much. The last time I looked it was just nudging £1000, while the RB300 is £188 today. I tried to find a price for an Akito just now, but I think Linn dealers must be too ashamed to publish this atrocity (and so they should be).

[Spectral Morn]

Very interesting thread, how nice it is to read Howard P's words again. Nice to see you back.

Firstly the staff of Linn who have just lost there jobs, through no fault of their own(mostly those who made mistakes, know who they are). You have my sympathy, its a truly crap thing to happen to you. I know only to well as back in late sept I lost my job as manager of a hi-fi shop. Its like a death and a type of grief comes over you plus anger and frustration. The one nice thing is that since the last time I was out of work(13 years ago) Job centers have improved and are not quite as humiliating as they used to be. Whether you get a job or not with the way things are now, well thats another question/hope.

I have never been much of a Linn fan but I did hear a Linn Karrik and Numerik earlier this year and they were not quite as bad as I thought they would be(multi-bit version I think).

An earlier post in this thread referred to Sony and Betamax. The only mistake Sony made(and still do)is they would not licence Betamax in the way JVC did VHS. Betamx was better but as Sony would not licence it JVC stepped in and won that battle(Video rentals helped too).

Good thread with a real human cost behind it.

Regards D S D L

[David Price]

Hi Howard,

Well, to be honest I wasn't being disingenuous. If you think so, it suggests you think I know more than I do know. It certainly wasn't wilful. Maybe I am not as well informed as you? (Quite likely, given your industry experience).

But my point was simply that Linn are British, and alive, and we should support them because of this. I wouldn't pretend for a moment that I agree with every last decision Ivor has made, but I think by and large Linn have been (and are) a good thing for UK plc and for hi-fi in general.

I think they need to lock on to the enthusiast audiophile market a bit more keenly than they have done (after all, that was what 'made them' in the first place, and agree that some of their pricing decisions have been a tad 'optimistic'. But then we see bits of kit like the Sneaky DS, which are almost underpriced compared to rival designs. So it's not all a one-way street.

I think a lot of problems emanated from Ivor's illness; the chap he entrusted to run the company didn't display a 'feel' for the market that Linn had for so long catered for. It's good to see Ivor back, and more importantly perhaps, Gilad (his son) who is a very sharp guy. I hope they use the DS range to claw back their cred (and market share).

I know many have objections to Linn for all sorts of reasons. Like Manchester United FC, if you're the biggest you'll be the recipient of the most criticism, but my point remains - they're a high quality British manufacturer and for that reason all power to their elbow. I also feel the same about Messrs Naim, Arcam, Meridian, Cyrus etc. If that's 'magazine bias', well fair enough - but let's remind ourselves of the fact that a country like ours deserves a serious hi-fi industry, and not knock it. The lesson of Rover Cars is there for all to see; actually they made some really good products (although not all), but the media just loved to knock them - witness Mr Clarkson et al.

I don't think anyone can argue that Linn deserves to fail, can they?

[David Price]

By the way, I completely agree about your last point - and Griffo too - that Linn need to pay heed to pricing and value. The Michell was £595 in the early eighties when the Linn was £376 (IIRC) and now it's the reverse. I also think the Keel is too expensive, and have reservations about other products too - but these are particular detail points; I don't think that should damn the entire company.

I think what's needed is a truly mass-market, high quality audio solution (like the iPod) - and UK PLC needs to get its finger out here. It saddens me that so many hi-fi companies have been asleep at the wheel with computer audio - and I should know because 9 years and 10 months ago I wrote the first edition of 'Computer Audio World', only to be greeted by a collective shrug of 'what on earth are you on about?' from the (British) industry. Now Samsung, Denon, Logitech, Terratec, Sony, LG, Revo, Electrocompaniet, Slim, Roku, etc. all have network music players and where's the UK hi-fi market in this? The upshot is that very few hi-fi dealers can sell network music players, and the customers go to PC World instead.

[Neil McCauley]

Hi Howard,

I don't think anyone can argue that Linn deserves to fail, can they?

Good to see your here again David. But .......... I take the Darwinian view about survival of the fittest. Presumably that was Linn's view re Fons, Dunlop, Ariston et al? Why should it be otherwise today?

David - WHY should we support them because they are BRITISH?

It's as silly as all-women short-lists for parliamentary selection. Surely this country deserves to support all those BRITISH companies which are World Class because they are demonstrably World Class and not through some misplaced sentimentality. BS Meridian are arguably World Class when it comes to digital replay and based on this truly deserve media support. Purveyors of corporate arrogance and mother-knows-best attitudes to end-users, magazines and the retail network might also, albeit reluctantly, be similarly deserving - if and only if they provide products that mean something to the target market. Where are the makers of the World Class slide rules today? Or makers of abacus either for that matter? Probably blaming the Government I guess.

My company Subjective Audio - under my sole control - failed in 1988 because I was apparently a great leader while at the same time being a crap and financially inept manager. I and my staff paid the price. In my case £0.25m - which I didn't have but was under threat of eviction for my family by HSBC given 1 year to find. I certainly didn't look for scapegoats. My ethos is to look for personal accountability first. The answer for commercial disasters like mine usually lies at the feet of the founder and/or figurehead. In contrast the company I started in 1998 – Cognisco Limited http://www.cognisco.com/about-us/news-and-pr/view.php?Id=181 – became (and remains) a global success because, in part, I let somebody else run it!

The point is that why should hard-working skilled staff be made redundant because of management ineptitude? I'm still financially inept and so I don't employ anyone.

It may be common place through all walks of industry and I see no reason why the audio world should any different. Moreover of course it's cosy and nice to see the British audio industry survive, but only if they deliver products that people want to buy.

Your point re Rover is well made. The media knocked them because they (in the main) shipped crap products that were overpriced. I had 3 x SD1 + others. Like Linn, they demonstrated corporate arrogance and looked for scapegoats, like Linn. as I said before, Rega and Michell toil under the same Government as Linn. You don't hear them bleating do you?

As for Mr T picking the wrong guy to run the business, well that very convenient too. Anyone can make a recruiting mistake. I certainly have. Surely the question is why did it take so long to do anything about it? Oh no ... I've got it ... it was the Government's fault – again. Ah, that's better. all neat and tidy now.

Maybe the scores and scores of hapless redundant workers should have the last word on this because the man that apparently didn't spot all this until they all got their redundancy notices is still in charge. "Meet the new boss - same as the old boss" - to quote Mr P. Townshend

Or perhaps they should sell the whole silly thing to Antony Michaelson? He's certainly got the track record of success. You won't catch him shoehorning his gear into overpriced supercars, despite the fact he owns one! He'd reason, I guess, that ego trips are only worthwhile if they make money and anything else is an indulgence.

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[griffo104]

The point is that why should hard-working skilled staff be made redundant because of management ineptitude? I'm still financially inept and so I don't employ anyone.


I thought this was the way of the world now ? Not just in the case of Scottish hifi companies. Certainly seems to be the preferred solution from where I'm sat at the moment.

I'm sure the redundancy decision wasn't easy for them. The company had been built with some pride regarding it's Scottish workforce and where I don't agree that laying off the workforce is the always the best solution sometimes these things have to happen. Nobody has a job for life in the current world.

David raises a very good point with regards to Rover. I'm originally from down the road from ~Longrbridge, all my family at some point have worked there (and I mean uncles, cousins, etc.. not just my Dad). I had tight links to them in my first IT job working for a company that the IT for them. When a company like Rover goes, it doesn't just take Rover - it takes the surrounding area with it, it's like a big mushroom cloud from Nuke bomb, everyone in the vicinity gets effected in one way or the other.

And, yes, people like Clarkson with his silly digs, even now, do more harm. There is no reason to like every product from a company but when they do produce something good then it should be supported.

Linn is trying to learn from some of it's mistakes. Ditching the hard drive based Kivor and moving to the much more sensible DS components shows they are thinking of the future, learning from their original computer based mistakes.

I currently live just down the road from Rega, these guys are a great example of how to run a company, make decent components sold at a very good and competitive price. Michell are another great company, well run little cottage industry BUT since John Michell died where are the new products coming from ? Ok the got a new DC Never Connected PSU for the Orbe and the limited editiion Odyssey was brought out but where are the new designs ? Prior to John passing away he borght out the Technoarm, the technodec, the technoweight and the VTA adjuster. All great, well designed products and, imo, superbly made and excellent VFM. But what happens when other companies move on with their designs ? Where will Michell be ?

Sometimes you have to take a gamble, read the industry and try and move with it. Imo, cd based systems will slowly die out, I certainly won't buy another CDP. Computer based audio with streaming devices will be the future, regardless of some of the hifi snobbery. The Linn DS components, the Majik in particular, show that these streaming devices can be as good as the similarly priced cd players, if not better, and als have all the flexibility of being connected to network. Soon these will also include, films and tv programmes.

Companies have to move to survive before the computer industry BECOMES the hifi industry. Linn has done what it needs to do in order to keep the company competitive and to survive.

I don't believe you should support a company BECAUSE it's British. In fact I dislike several of the companies David mentions and I can't think of a single component by one or two of them that I would want to own. Linn have looked for scapegoats for their current misfortune and that is wrong but they have also tried to rectify their problems.

A friend recently had a phne chat with someone at Michell, he was told they were doing ok but most of their sales were outside of the UK now. Things move on it's a tough business world out there as I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.

I get in to work every day and expect to be told not to come in tomorrow. I've not been given a pay rise this year because the company I work for states they can't afford it and the client I'm based at is laying 10's of thousands off in the US.

That's life and having a go at Linn because they laid a few people off is just not really acceptable. It's the current business model for most of the corporate world :(

[i_should_coco]

What I admire about Ivor is that he can aggressively state one position and sometime afterwards completely contradict himself with a straight face. The fact that people still believe him shows just how charismatic he is.