View Full Version : Naim Ovator S400s
ursus262
27-08-2011, 15:38
Well, today I went to audition the Naim Ovator S400s and I was really disappointed with them. They were connected to the same equipment as that which I use at home, down to the same speaker cable.
They sounded so odd - a sort of veiled, nasal tone that gave the impression that the musicians were in another room. The upper- and mid-bass were really boomy, with little or no deep bass, and there was a harsh, almost sibilant character in the treble. To be honest, it is the sort of sound that I would expect from a cheap system bought in the electrical section of the supermarket that an £3k+ pair of speakers.
I think I'll stick with my Monitor Audio RS6s.
The Vinyl Adventure
27-08-2011, 16:08
I havent heard the 400's but your description is much the same as my experience of the 600's ... orrible!
Where did you go to hear them, Dave?
Marco.
ursus262
27-08-2011, 16:25
Marco
I went to Zinc HT in Borehamwood, Herts. They're a Naim dealer, and they are pretty knowledgeable about the brand.
They took the Ovators out of the demo room and replaced them with a pair of PMCs and they were superb! Not only do I have knowledge of Transmission Line speakers, having had two pairs of TDLs in the past, but the PMCs are made in Luton, just up the road from where I live.
But the Ovators were truly dreadful. I've never heard anything like them before. Very disappointing.
Dave
I've heard both the 600 and 400's a number of times and, honestly, I don't recognise either speaker from the above descriptions.I certainly wouldn't describe them as harsh or sibilant (although that could have been said about some older Naim designs).
I'm not,i n any way, suggesting that the Ovator speakers are without fault - just that the faults are not the ones highlighted.
(I've not been very taken with the PMC's I have, so far, heard - I didn't like TDL's either :))
hifi_dave
27-08-2011, 18:13
I would imagine it's a room thing because they don't sound like that here..:scratch:
I had some Naim Credos for a short while. They shared the nasal quality you note.
I thought they were quite foul and that was at the end of my one and only all Naim system...... Never, ever again.
sq225917
27-08-2011, 22:49
I thought the 400's sounded very fine in manchester, the 600's sounded too full at the bottom and too thin at the top when i heard them, but that was during a show.
ursus262
28-08-2011, 08:53
I would imagine it's a room thing because they don't sound like that here..:scratch:
Well, he replaced them with PMCs, and they sounded wonderful. I'm not sure the room was at issue here to be honest..
Really, they sounded dreadful, and I'm surprised at the counter comments on this thread. Surely the speakers couldn't have been faulty. Yet they were really, really bad. I was quite surprised.
Did the dealer agree that they weren't sounding any good?
aquapiranha
28-08-2011, 10:15
Well, he replaced them with PMCs, and they sounded wonderful. I'm not sure the room was at issue here to be honest..
Really, they sounded dreadful, and I'm surprised at the counter comments on this thread. Surely the speakers couldn't have been faulty. Yet they were really, really bad. I was quite surprised.
Blaming the room is a low tactic IMO. If a speaker is will not work in the average domestic setting, then what is the point? I am not saying there are naim apologists here, but I have seen that in the past ad nauseam, where criticism of a naim product is considered heresy, jealousy or some such nonsense.
I have heard massive speakers work in smaller rooms, and tiny speakers fill a room with great music, and while I am fully aware of the importance of sonics and room treatments etc, I just do not buy the 'it must have been the room' scenario as being true all of the time.
hifi_dave
28-08-2011, 11:21
If you're having a dig at me, it was merely a suggestion as they don't sound like that here, which is a 'domestic' situation and not a showroom.
I was trying to be helpful, that's all.
Blaming the room is a low tactic IMO. If a speaker is will not work in the average domestic setting, then what is the point? I am not saying there are naim apologists here, but I have seen that in the past ad nauseam, where criticism of a naim product is considered heresy, jealousy or some such nonsense.
I have heard massive speakers work in smaller rooms, and tiny speakers fill a room with great music, and while I am fully aware of the importance of sonics and room treatments etc, I just do not buy the 'it must have been the room' scenario as being true all of the time.
aquapiranha
28-08-2011, 11:28
If you're having a dig at me, it was merely a suggestion as they don't sound like that here, which is a 'domestic' situation and not a showroom.
I was trying to be helpful, that's all.
Sorry Dave, that was not meant to be a dig, I hope you can accept an apology if you thought it was.
What I was trying to say, and it isn't naim who are the only ones here by any stretch, is that we often hear the term 'it must be the room' when it comes to speakers not sounding their best. So what are customers supposed to do? build the house around the speakers so the room is 'suitable'?
Steve.
I've been rather disappointed with the 600's when I have heard them. Early ones seemed rather disconnected in the bass and latter models (with re-worked bass drivers) seemed to achieve better integration but at the expense of sounding a bit veiled and undynamic. Another thing that struck me was how different the voicing was compared to every other speaker Naim had ever produced.
The 400's instantly sounded better balanced to me - perhaps because of their smaller bass drivers, or smaller internal volume. I thought they did a better job of combining the fine mid to treble integration with the bass. The last 400's I heard had good midband dynamic and expression too - but perhaps Naim have made further changes since.
I write the above to make it clear that I am not apologising, or excusing the sound of the Ovators. just that my experience does not seem to parallel that of others that have posted. I do not feel the Ovators are above criticism, just that the the criticisms that have been made, are not the ones I would make.
__________________________
With regard to rooms; I think that big speakers in small rooms often do sound crap. However, this is not necessarily the case if the speaker has a very heavily damped bass. There is always the problem that extended bass will excite room modes. When I first heard Ovator 600's I did think they sounded under-damped and interacted with the room a touch too much (they were already positioned well clear of the walls). At the end of the day, a speaker has to perform well in a domestic environment.
hifi_dave
28-08-2011, 12:19
Thank you.
I'm not attempting to make excuses for the Ovator 400, it's up to potential customers to make up their own minds about it's merits or otherwise. In my 'domestic' room, it has a fairly bright pesentation but not overly so as many modern speakers are. I can well imagine that in a sparsely furnished room, it would be explicit but not harsh or aggressive and a bit of wall re-inforcement would flesh out the bass if need be.
I have no idea what the B/wood listening room is like but I have visited a few dealer's demo rooms with lots of glass, no carpets, bare walls and only a settee to soak up the reflections. Such a room would give some strange results with many speakers.
At the end of the day, it's a matter of one's taste and you are unlikely to fall in love at home, with a speaker you didn't like in the showroom.
Sorry Dave, that was not meant to be a dig, I hope you can accept an apology if you thought it was.
What I was trying to say, and it isn't naim who are the only ones here by any stretch, is that we often hear the term 'it must be the room' when it comes to speakers not sounding their best. So what are customers supposed to do? build the house around the speakers so the room is 'suitable'?
Steve.
ursus262
28-08-2011, 17:13
The most telling thing about the session was when the dealer replaced the Ovators with a pair of PMCs. The PMCs were completely the polar opposite of the Naims: dynamic, transparent, sweet treble with a controlled bass and good voicing.
What this tells me is that the room is not the issue. There was no glass in the room, only a door and a sofa and some acoustic panels. I didn't feel that the room acoustic was really much different to my lounge.
Can you remember what the full demo system was, Dave, including cables? :)
Marco.
Not being a fan of Naim speakers in anyway however, I have heard the Ovators in numerous dealers in the last few months.
I would say the 400's are the better of the two, however the 600's do require a fair amount of room to make them funcion correctly.
The 400's when set up properly can produce a respectable sound, not yet heard this from the 600's yet.
The Vinyl Adventure
28-08-2011, 17:47
I heard the 600's at my choice dealer's place with a naim/linn front end ...
The linn was a accurate ds which I know quite well from other systems ...
The naim amps were a 282 and 300 (I'm pretty sure) cables would have been naca5 and probably a home brew interconnect ...
He liked the sound
I thought it sounded shouty, brash, harsh and in your face
Different strokes etc was our conclusion ... This was not long after I had bought my Adams and I was there at a meeting about thier website so he wasn't trying to sell me anything, yet still said he thought the sound was really quite good ...
This was one experience of a few that have made me realise just how differently people perceive hifi ..
My business partner was also taken aback by how they sounded (in a positive way) although he couldn't put into words how or why it sounded different from my set up and said he liked them equally but for very different reasons ...
The reference track was a 24/192 version of Hotel California ...
Really made me reassess how much I read into people oppinions on hifi forum it did ...
So yeah, IMO the 600's are aweful... But that's about the extent of it ... A passing opinion ...
Actually, to add to that, the last member of this forum who visited my place said my hifi didn't have the drive that he likes ... And last time steve was here his main comment was that it is "easy to listen to" ... Sound bang on to me, so I guess I have a taste for a more laid back sound ...
I guess I have a taste for a more laid back sound ...
http://www.simister.com/public/ps.jpg
;) :lol: ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
28-08-2011, 18:08
Well I got the slippers ...
G&V roll up and slippers maybe ;)
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/ba87e950.jpg
ursus262
28-08-2011, 18:14
Can you remember what the full demo system was, Dave, including cables? :)
Marco.
The system, basically, was a one-box NaimUniti, which is identical to mine. Chord speaker cables were used (I have Chords at home, and think highly of them), and the music was streamed in WAV format from Naim's own NAS upnp server in the building.
The bitrate was high, if I remember correctly. I stream music from my laptop via upnp, with excellent results.
H'okay cokey, so there's not really much excuse for the (to some) poor sound. However, just for reference, it may have been interesting to have heard what, say, a CDS3/XPS sounded like, or a top-notch T/T, at the helm in the demo system, instead of the Uniti......
These days I'm not so familiar with the Naim product range, but how much is a Uniti, and also what do the S400s cost? Is there a possibility that the 400s were simply revealing the deficiencies of an 'inferior' source (in terms of what could've fronted the system, within the Naim product range, of comparable cost to the Ovators)?
What were the S400s (or 600s), in terms of sources, likely voiced with when they were designed? Experience tells me that system synergy is a very important consideration, as indeed is the effect of any component hierarchical imbalance, especially when it comes to Naim systems.
Just some thoughts, folks, that's all :)
Marco.
The Uniti is not very high up the amplification chain and the 400's are quite high up the speaker chain - it's not a well balanced system and certainly I have never heard any of the Ovator speakers with such a humble source/amplification.
Reading Hamish's post though, I can see why he might not like the presentation (he would absolutely hate SBL's).
The Uniti is not very high up the amplification chain and the 400's are quite high up the speaker chain - it's not a well balanced system and certainly I have never heard any of the Ovator speakers with such a humble source/amplification.
That's kind of what I was getting at, Mark. In the old days, I wouldn't have dreamed of using, say, a CD3.5 and Naim Nait, with a pair of DBLs! :mental:
Without making any excuses for the Ovators (I am entirely neutral in this matter), the dealer, IMO, is guilty of not having demonstrated the S400s (or Uniti) in a synergistically matched system. Regardless of anything else, there existed a hierarchical component imbalance, which sonically, would've been less than ideal.
So what do the Uniti and Ovator S400s retail for, respectively? Anyone?
Marco.
Yes, I realise that's what you were getting at - I was, essentially, saying 'yes, you are right' - its a mullet :).
I think the 400's are about twice the price of the Uniti.
ursus262
28-08-2011, 19:11
Well, the Uniti isn't the last word in excellence, transparency or clarity - that I'll admit - but it's still very, very good. I couldn't honestly say that the Uniti is anything less than an audiophile component, because it isn't. Of course the CD555, et al, is better, but there still isn't much difference in it.
For me, the Uniti is a step up from the Cambridge Audio stuff that I had before, and even that was very good
What I don't understand is this: the Ovators and the PMCs are in a similar price bracket, and are aimed at the same sort of market, yet when connected to the Uniti they gave very different results.
My last upgrade was the balanced mains transformer, and I have to say my system now sounds rather lush. I'm really pleased with the results. I wouldn't mind dabbling with an old Leak valve power amplifier though.
ursus262
28-08-2011, 19:14
So what do the Uniti and Ovator S400s retail for, respectively? Anyone?
Marco.
The Uniti retails for nearly £2500, and the Ovators 400s retail for, if I remember correctly, approximately £3700.
Yes, I realise that's what you were getting at - I was, essentially, saying 'yes, you are right' - its a mullet :)
A "mullet" - yes, I believe that's the recognised term! It's also ample evidence of the pitfalls of not following a 'source first' system-building policy, or even, for that matter, any semblance of a balanced one...
Marco.
ursus262
28-08-2011, 19:31
A "mullet" - yes, I believe that's the recognised term! It's also ample evidence of the pitfalls of not following a 'source first' system-building policy, or even, for that matter, any semblance of a balanced one...
Marco.
I'm not sure that it is, because the PMCs gave a different result, despite costing almost as much as the Ovators.
I'm convinced that the speakers are, well, overpriced crap :)
Hi Dave,
The Uniti retails for nearly £2500, and the Ovators 400s retail for, if I remember correctly, approximately £3700.
Thanks for the info, as it provides some clarity.
However, the Uniti is a source and amp in one, no? Therefore, what we have effectively is a £1250 digital source and amplifier, driving a pair of £4k speakers.
No matter what way you cut it, that situation is less than ideal.
Marco.
ursus262
28-08-2011, 19:37
Normally, I follow the source-first policy having learned from bitter experience. I am, however, happy with my sources, and thought that a new pair of speakers would be the cherry on the cake. The PMCs are lovely, but I'll have to save up for those.
I'm not sure that it is, because the PMCs gave a different result, despite costing almost as much as the Ovators.
I'm convinced that the speakers are, well, overpriced crap
Well, that's your opinion, based on experience, and you're entitled to it. I'm simply providing some balance, from a neutral's point of view :)
There could be many variables to explain why the PMCs sounded better, to your ears, synergy being one of them. And by that I mean that the PMCs 'preferred' the sonic signature of the Uniti, or rather coped better with its sonic compromises.
Marco.
If you look at the Signals website (the local Naim "experts" to Alex & I), you'll find that apparently, the Ovators need a top notch source but are ok with lesser Naim amps.
That kind of confims what I'm saying then, doesn't it? :)
Although it in no way devalues what Dave heard. What I have a pet hate of, however, is conclusive (negative) opinions being reached on any equipment or speakers without sufficient examination or consideration of at least *some* of the variables or reasons applicable. It's lazy thinking in the extreme.
Marco.
I'am not sure how much of a mullet system that is.
Imo it isn't really.
Pretty sure a naim dealer would sell the combo happily enough.
I've had a fair few bits of naim over the years but there speakers have never done it for me...except the nsats.
Hi Stu,
It's a "mullet", by definition, simply because the source and amps cost significantly less than the speakers :)
Of course some Naim dealers would happily sell that combo, they are after all in the business of selling kit, but that doesn't make it a well balanced system, by any means.
Marco.
Not sure marco.
If just going on price then it's a mullet.
Although i've heard many systems as i'am sure you have with £1200ish source £1200 amp and a few grand speakers sound superb.
I would expect the said system to sound at least very good considering you would expect it to have very good synergy.
I guess that it's a matter of opinion, dude.
If it were me demonstrating the Ovators (and I've worked in numerous hi-fi shops over the years), I'd definitely not have fronted them with a Uniti, although I understand why they were in Dave's auditioning circumstances.
I'd have had a CDS3/XPS, or even better, a top-notch T/T, at the helm, and in doing so I'd have been very confident of achieving superior results, in terms of better hearing what the Ovators were capable of.
YMMV :)
Marco.
Of course from the dealers side i'd expect him to use the best source and amp to highlight what the speakers are capable of.
I've never really been a source first person especially with cd players.TT's are more important in terms of quality though imo.
I'd always throw a higher % of cash at the speakers if i was buying a cd based system.
The Grand Wazoo
28-08-2011, 23:13
Let's look at it from the salesman's point of view for a moment (& bear in mind the current financial climate) - the customer went into the shop saying he wanted to listen to £4000 speakers & if he bought them, he would be using a Naim Uniti.
What's the guy going to do?
Tell him that's ridiculous & he should be spending his money on an amp &/or source at the risk of losing a £4k sale?
Let him listen to some £4k speakers in the hope that he'll hear something he likes & buy them?
I know what we'd all like to think he'd do, but he's going to go for the best chance of a sale, isn't he?
I'd always throw a higher % of cash at the speakers if i was buying a cd based system.
I wouldn't (and for very good reasons, based on extensive listening experience), but it's all about opinions, dude - and all are valid :)
Good point, Chris!
Marco.
But wouldn't you expect a £2,500 system to do the speakers justice?
I know i would,even more so from the same company.
I wouldn't (and for very good reasons, based on extensive experience), but it's all about opinions, dude - and all are valid :)
Good point, Chris!
Marco.
:cool:
But wouldn't you expect a £2,500 system to do the speakers justice?
I know i would,even more so from the same company.
Me too. With the speakers it's a single source £6.5K system - £6.5K! :eek: It should sound like the voice of god - if it doesn't something is badly wrong somwhere.
I stil want to know if the dealer agreed it sounded poor?
Unfortunately, Martin, throwing money at a system blindly, without a carefully considered plan, rarely in my experience, produces excellent results (you're currently discovering this with your Stanton cartridge revelations), so your highighting of the total system cost is moot. Synergy is all.
I could put together a £6500 system that would utterly blow your mind, and equally one that you likely wouldn't even piss on!
Marco.
Unfortunately, Martin, throwing money at a system blindly, without a carefully considered plan, rarely in my experience, produces excellent results (you're currently discovering this with your Stanton cartridge revelations), so your highighting of the total system cost is moot.
Marco.
I agree - but if you are buying an all Naim system you are buying Naim's plan, no? And that plan should be a good one, especially at that price.
Yes, but there are so many different components in Naim's product portfolio these days that one needs to intimately know their respective sonic signatures, in order to achieve the most rewarding musical synergy. That is where a good dealer's knowledge of the products he sells *should* be an asset to the customer.
Unfortunately, it's not simply a matter of dropping £6.5k (or whatever) on a number of Naim boxes and hoping (expecting) that sonic nirvana is guaranteed. One could well argue that it should be for that price, but the reality is that it's just not that simple.
It was never even like that in the old days, where the best performance was always achieved by judiciously pairing certain components within the Naim range, and they weren't always the most expensive ones either.
What this situation ably highlights is that system-building, if you're going to achieve superlative results, is more about using your head (and ears) than your wallet - and so it will always remain! ;)
Marco.
.
Unfortunately, it's not simply a matter of dropping £6.5k (or whatever) on a number of Naim boxes and hoping (expecting) that sonic nirvana is guaranteed. One could well argue that it should be for that price, but the reality is that it's just not that simple.
Marco.
Not sonic nirvana is one thing - but so poor as to be unlistenable? That was the impression I got from the OP anyway.
Remember that, at the end of the day, it's all subjective! ;)
Marco.
Leaving Naim aside for a moment. I've found that some of the most endearing passive speakers I've ever heard in recent times (Quad 57's, Wilson Witts, Spendor BC1/SP1, Harbeth "anything" and Tannoy Turnberry's) haven't NEEDED expensive sources or partnering equipment to charm the ears. The mk1 Witts for example just "shrunk" with, say, a budget Denon or Arcam system driving them, but never sounded horrible. As the power and subtlety went up, the sound expanded and filled ever bigger spaces, as does the Harbeth 40.1, which is an update on the Spendor SP100 ideal Marco owned for a while.
I grew to feel ages ago that if a speaker needs the very best partnering gear to work AT ALL, then there's something wrong - IMO.
Harbeth SHL5's need a bit of space around them ideally, cost under £2500, and can be used with ANYTHING, the differences being in the size of the soundstage width and especially depth.
I hope the advantages of a better source and amplification are more than just a bit better soundstaging, or the speakers are a bit of a bottleneck. But, I agree that speakers shouldn't actively sound horrible with lesser sources - unless of course, that is what the source sounds like. A speaker can't be both transparent and kind to a poor quality input.
ursus262
29-08-2011, 10:03
My Uniti is not a poor quality input. Do I detect a whiff of snobbery on this thread? The Uniti is perfectly capable of driving a £3k+ pair of speakers - the price tags have nothing to do with it! :steam:
Incidentally, the Naim forum are pretty surprised at the result. I've decided to try a different dealer to see if the results vary. I'll let you know how I get on.
Please do, Dave, as personally, I think that the other one was crap! ;)
I would recommend our own hifi dave :) Can you get to him reasonably easily?
Marco.
My Uniti is not a poor quality input. Do I detect a whiff of snobbery on this thread? The Uniti is perfectly capable of driving a £3k+ pair of speakers - the price tags have nothing to do with it! :steam:.
Snobbery, yeah probably, from me at least (I'm not a big fan of digital in general and even less of 'all in one' solutions :). There is a Super Uniti just launched, or about to be launched.
Actually, I wasn't referring to the Uniti as such, but more to sources and amps in general. As you say, have another dem - if it still sounds crap then look elsewhere.
Synergy has a huge part go play here. A few years ago Max Townsend had a system with his own sources and Sir Galahad speakers (£10k) being driven by a pioneer A400. I remember that all who heard the system thought it stunning.
I'm not a naim fan but for £2500 I would expect the Uniti Thingy to sound stunning. I'm sure you'll find some fab speakers to work with it as the Ovators clearly didn't on the day.
ursus262
29-08-2011, 14:48
I used to have a Pioneer A400, and a fine amplifier it was too.
Have you tried neat speakers?
Found them to work very well with naim.
ursus262
29-08-2011, 15:09
I might give then a go, as I've heard that Neat are very good
I might give then a go, as I've heard that Neat are very good
I would definitely suggest a trip to Saffron Walden, then - hifi_dave has a pair of Ovator 400s on dem, as well as Neat, and then you can try the Harbeths, too... :)
ursus262
29-08-2011, 16:57
I would definitely suggest a trip to Saffron Walden, then - hifi_dave has a pair of Ovator 400s on dem, as well as Neat, and then you can try the Harbeths, too... :)
Oooh! I'm drooling! I'm going to Norwich in a few weeks, so should be good to fix up an appointment for a demo.
Dave :cool:
A few years ago Max Townsend had a system with his own sources and Sir Galahad speakers (£10k) being driven by a pioneer A400. I remember that all who heard the system thought it stunning.
Well I wish I had heard that, because I never found the A400 any more than deeply disappointing (and I mean compared to other similarly priced amps).
Oooh! I'm drooling! I'm going to Norwich in a few weeks, so should be good to fix up an appointment for a demo.
Nice one. Dave will definitely look after you properly :)
Marco.
ursus262
29-08-2011, 17:12
Interestingly, I posted my findings over on the Naim Forum, and to my astonishment, I found that there are others who had the same experiences when auditioning the S400s. One even went so far as to suggest that the room or source equipment shortcomings are not plausible explanations for the speakers' apparent shortcomings.
Apparently, getting them ABSOLUTELY LEVEL sorts them out & gets the boogie-men dancing for ya.....
Perhaps you weren't unlucky with your dem, perhaps it is I that have been lucky with mine - perhaps the room etc, helped hide their shortcomings (it's certainly not impossible).
Well I wish I had heard that, because I never found the A400 any more than deeply disappointing (and I mean compared to other similarly priced amps).
And I felt the same for the six months I owned my one and only Naim system.
One man's meat........
hifinutt
31-08-2011, 17:22
i rather liked the ovators at one show but its sad to see a pair selling [or rather not selling] for very little money on ebay recently . either its summer and the market is flat or they are not liked [which i am sure many do like]
ursus262
31-08-2011, 19:30
i rather liked the ovators at one show but its sad to see a pair selling [or rather not selling] for very little money on ebay recently . either its summer and the market is flat or they are not liked [which i am sure many do like]
Or maybe it's because they're not very good :eyebrows:
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