View Full Version : Naim Audio and Focal merger
HighFidelityGuy
19-08-2011, 11:10
More info here: LINK (http://www.whathifi.com/blog/qa-naim-audio-and-focal-merger)
Not really a merger, though, in the end... (Focal Turnover £31M vs £18M for Naim.) Naim management have taken shares in the joint company, but my bet is this will be an "exit strategy" for them. IMO, of course. Time will tell - certainly looks like a good (business) decision.
I wish I had an exit strategy...:rolleyes:
griffo104
19-08-2011, 12:18
Should be interesting. always been quite impressed with the build quality and research that Focal put in. Lots of companies use focal units.
Wonder if we start seeing Focal speakers branded for Naim and that part of the Naim business disappear. Certainly I think Focal keep their beryllium tweeter to themselves so it could open up opportunites for Naim systems.
Does look like a bit of a one sided merger though.
Be interesting to see the reaction of the Naim fanbois at this development.
HighFidelityGuy
19-08-2011, 12:18
Not really a merger, though, in the end... (Focal Turnover £31M vs £18M for Naim.) Naim management have taken shares in the joint company, but my bet is this will be an "exit strategy" for them. IMO, of course. Time will tell - certainly looks like a good (business) decision.
Yeah, I think it's going to be more of a sharing of resources to allow them both to make better and more varied products than before. So hopefully some good will come of this.
Neil McCauley
19-08-2011, 12:55
Call me a cynic (and indeed many have) but for me re this it seems like: Desperate Times = Desperate Measures.
But if correct, then desperate for whom I wonder?
Meanwhile, the civilised World hold's its collective breath - not!
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HighFidelityGuy
19-08-2011, 13:01
Call me a cynic (and indeed many have) but for me re this it seems like: Desperate Times = Desperate Measures.
But if correct, then desperate for whom I wonder?
Meanwhile, the civilised World hold's its collective breath - not!
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Nah, I think your just being a bit cynical. ;) It sounds like both companies were doing quite well before all this, so I wouldn't say it was desperation. However, we are in a time where companies need to diversify and try to tap into new markets. So I think Naim are just trying to give themselves more options.
Sod naim and Focal, dont give a flying one.
But what about Claire Newsome eh? She looks hot to me:stalks:
It's not happened yet, guys, but let's not turn this thread into another tedious Naim-bashing exercise, as we've all had enough of those to last us a lifetime....
Message understood, I hope! ;)
Marco.
Call me a cynic (and indeed many have) but for me re this it seems like: Desperate Times = Desperate Measures.
But if correct, then desperate for whom I wonder?
Meanwhile, the civilised World hold's its collective breath - not!
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Naim filed over £850,000 profit last year, and their turnover and profit have jumped year on year over the past 3 years - so I think I can rightly say "Howard - you're a cynic!" ;)
I could say loads, but best not to. Needless to say that a sell-off or similar was on the cards for some years I understand from two totally unrelated but interesting sources hundreds of miles apart.
Thing is, the dealers who stock Naim often got on really well with Focal as well, the old £1K speakers sounding almost as if Naim made them ("better" Credo's - lumpy bass and "sparkling" treble).
Good luck to 'em. I reckon both companies will benefit in the long run. The ever rising Naim price structure can't continue for ever IMO.
flatpopely
19-08-2011, 23:54
I feel very sad tonight. NAIM represent to me, for better or worse, the classic cottage industry made good.
I guess we can kiss goodbye Naim speakers... ;)
Peter Stockwell
20-08-2011, 07:59
The ever rising Naim price structure can't continue for ever IMO.
Indeed! The main reason I moved on from CDX/XPS/282/Hi/200 needed to spend close to £10k to make any significant improvement. In fact I'v gone almost completely cottage industry (Temple Audio, Chevron Audio, et tutti quanti)
I guess we can kiss goodbye Naim speakers... ;)
Dimitri! Good to see you! :) Long time - hope you and your family are well!
Dimitri! Good to see you! :) Long time - hope you and your family are well!
Good to see you too ! Yep, everybody is ok, thank you !! :)
Trying to get to the forums once more, got some extra time this weekend !!! :lolsign:
hifi_dave
20-08-2011, 08:45
The ever rising Naim price structure can't continue for ever IMO.
Unfortunately, it's the way of the World. How many products have gone down or even stayed the same ?
Our gas and electricity have just gone up 18%, rail travel 8-13% and Tesco just hike by 20% when they feel like it. I don't take much notice of the food prices but I did notice my beer going from £1.25 at the beginning of the year to £1.45 and now £1.89. Even my doughnuts have gone from 60 to 80 pence in one hit. :eek:
Good to see you too ! Yep, everybody is ok, thank you !! :)
Trying to get to the forums once more, got some extra time this weekend !!! :lolsign:
Excellent! Really good to see you back here. :)
In many ways they complement nicely since Focal do not have a strong amp division and outside of UK, Focal has a better presence than Naim, which Naim could now access those markets. Focal could also start incorporating Naim's technology inside their active speakers.
The merger make sense to me.
Focal could also start incorporating Naim's technology inside their active speakers.
Wot, you mean backwards capacitors, cheapo components, an outdated quasi-complimentary 1950's design, ongoing bandwidth limiting, a £15K amp made up of over-supplied bridged lower-model amp boards and a stack of external power supplies with remote regulation when it can be done far cheaper (and better?) putting the regulation right next to where it's needed? Oooooh, I do hope not :D All in fun, so don't take it seriously :lol:
Nah, just watch the prices of old "UK Naim" start to soar in a few years time :)
Seriously, it's the streaming solutions and related products which are probably selling now. I wonder just how much of their turnover is with the now "legacy" two channel products?
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUtk7fqADnNgk5k4Ca_8zvlpzocAi4b WaBskzamwYlN259OhCe7Q
(crossover filter from a Focal 726s model)
:sofa:
hifi_dave
20-08-2011, 11:45
Seriously, it's the streaming solutions and related products which are probably selling now. I wonder just how much of their turnover is with the now "legacy" two channel products?
Since when did two channel Hi-Fi products become 'legacy' ?
I think you spend too much time on a certain other forum where only squitty little computer speakers are considered up to date..:rolleyes:
Indeed! Wash your mouth out, Mr Rance!! ;)
Marco.
flatpopely
20-08-2011, 11:50
I think it's the very fact they have lost focus on 'legacy' that is the issue.
At the Linn event I attended this year they as much as admitted that multiroom and home cinema was not good for Linn and they would concentate on 2.1.
Somone should have told NAIM.
Neil McCauley
20-08-2011, 12:07
I think it's the very fact they have lost focus on 'legacy' that is the issue.
At the Linn event I attended this year they as much as admitted that multiroom and home cinema was not good for Linn and they would concentate on 2.1.
Somone should have told NAIM.
Maybe Linn should be merged with ASDA?
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hifi_dave
20-08-2011, 12:10
Naim haven't got any Home Cinema products and their multi-room products are wireless. The streaming and storage products are becoming popular as a front end for two channel systems.
Linn majored on Home Cinema and lost the plot completely with two channel.
flatpopely
20-08-2011, 12:44
Naim haven't got any Home Cinema products and their multi-room products are wireless. The streaming and storage products are becoming popular as a front end for two channel systems.
Linn majored on Home Cinema and lost the plot completely with two channel.
The AV2 and NAP175 were a de focus. NAIM Net - what a waste of time...
flatpopely
20-08-2011, 12:45
Maybe Linn should be merged with ASDA?
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And the point of that post was?
Alan Sircom
20-08-2011, 12:47
I think it's the very fact they have lost focus on 'legacy' that is the issue.
At the Linn event I attended this year they as much as admitted that multiroom and home cinema was not good for Linn and they would concentate on 2.1.
Somone should have told NAIM.
It's worth noting that whatever the back-story leading up to the Focal-Naim hookup, Naim went into the process as a profitable business with an £18m turnover.
Looking at that business with the benefit of a more global perspective, a significant proportion of that profitability comes from its streaming devices. This is because in those parts of the world where money still exists, Naim is viewed as a desirable and fashionable 'super-Sonos'.
hifi_dave
20-08-2011, 12:49
The AV2 and NAP175 were a de focus.
Home Cinema for most comppanies who took part was a 'de focus'. I could never see the attraction but a lot of industry people thought it was the future and jumped in too deep, losing a mountain of money in the process.
Alan Sircom
20-08-2011, 13:01
The AV2 and NAP175 were a de focus. NAIM Net - what a waste of time...
Er, the AV2 and NAP175 were launched (and subsequently discontinued) several years ago. Home cinema was a defocus for many brands (including Linn) because at the time when these products were being designed, home cinema represented the future of the audio business. None of us anticipated that home cinema's path to commoditisation would have taken five years instead of 20 as predicted.
NaimNET is built with an expectation of there being a CI market, which had something of a grand mal seizure when the world economy went haywire. However, the infrastructure that created NaimNET gave the company the tools to create its Uniti products, which have proven to be extremely successful.
Neil McCauley
20-08-2011, 13:10
And the point of that post was?
Humour. Laughter, and things like that! The sort of emotion many people have forgotten and some perhaps don't even know about.
Not taking things too seriously.
That's it in a nutshell! Hope this helps.
Meanwhile please let me know if I can be of further assistance re this matter. Thank you
Regards.
Howard.
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hifinutt
20-08-2011, 13:54
ah, utopia of stella proportions , the grande moment of union , eclipsed only by the scala performance of a naim system in a Bentley continental . Naim and Focal , a diablo combination !!!
ursus262
20-08-2011, 13:58
I recently worked for a French company, and their management were a nightmare! Their ineptitude and inability to run the organisation properly was breathtaking!
I am not sure if this is typical of French management though - I can only hope that Naim will benefit from this merger.
sq225917
20-08-2011, 16:49
The joint chiefs are probably eyeing up the top end of the current ipod doc/dac market where the Naim brand would be a simple shoe-in/extension to their current line, extending price points downwards where Naim would not usually tread but probably could reach with greater outsourcing and broader market penetration which being part of Focal will offer.
Likewise Focal offer Naim the chance to optimise their loudspeaker design and manufacturer process and pass on savings to customers.
There's benefits on both sides. The Naim and Focal brands can happily coexist at dealers, the joint operation just makes them more profitable. Maybe some point down the line the brands might coalesce towards a new branding, but frankly they'd be insane to touch either brand as they are so strong and well known.
Have no doubt that the Focal management can pull off almost anything. After all they just doubled the price of their top offerings in less than 4 years and no one batted an eyelid. Good luck to both of them I hope they both continue to manufacturer as much as possible in the uk/Euro zone.
Spectral Morn
20-08-2011, 16:56
I would not imagine (note I use this word as I have not myself heard Focal speakers on the end of Naim electronics) a lot of synergy between the two brands sonically. Has anyone heard Focal's on the end of Naim electronics? What did it sound like?
Regards D S D L
flatpopely
20-08-2011, 19:34
Humour. Laughter, and things like that! The sort of emotion many people have forgotten and some perhaps don't even know about.
Not taking things too seriously.
That's it in a nutshell! Hope this helps.
Meanwhile please let me know if I can be of further assistance re this matter. Thank you
Regards.
Howard.
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Did not read as humour, irony and cynicism maybe.
I would not imagine (note I use this word as I have not myself heard Focal speakers on the end of Naim electronics) a lot of synergy between the two brands sonically. Has anyone heard Focal's on the end of Naim electronics? What did it sound like?
Regards D S D L
Neil, in fairness now, Naim products no longer screech unless they're over-driven. Imagine a range sounding more like 135's on song, rather than a bad 140 or any 110 ;)
I've only extensively listened to Focals of a few years ago, and then the circa £1K models. With their ports tamed, they were very crisp in balance (on current Naim and other amps), but no worse I think than some Kudos models I heard not that long ago. My local Naim dealer likes Kudos, so should also like Focal too, as long as he has enough dosh left over from the Linn stuff he's just taken on :lol:
flatpopely
20-08-2011, 23:37
DSJR while its nice to talk music and SQ I bet this was nothing more than a money based deal.
More likely a financially viable way out (eventually) for the current UK directors, once the dust has settled ;)
flatpopely
21-08-2011, 11:52
More likely a financially viable way out (eventually) for the current UK directors, once the dust has settled ;)
Indeed.
It could represent good synergy provided they recognise both company's strengths. IMO Naim's speakers were pretty awful and no loss to the new organisation. I think Focal made a mistake ditching their high end JM Lab brand and should re-launch it.
It will be interesting should this merger go ahead.
ursus262
21-08-2011, 16:51
IMO Naim's speakers were pretty awful and no loss to the new organisation.
So are you saying that the Ovator S400s and S600s aren't very good? if not, I'd like to know your opinion about them to save me the bother of going to St Albans to audition them.
I heard the S600 and I thought it was better than the truly awful DBLs, but I really would not shortlist them for myself. However, you must listen to them for yourself, please don't take anyone else's opinion when it comes to speakers, they are too personal.
I've had the pain of listening to the Ovator 400's and despite the lovely build and finish (why is the socket bank so loose in the cabinet - can't be to make it sound better surely - snigger - ) and can confirm they're truly awful. Incredibly harsh, shreiky smeared mids, splattery treble, no definition whatsoever and any bass quality totally over-ridden by the cacophany above. Of course, we hadn't massaged the speaker cables or interconnects, got the speakers level to within a few nano-seconds of arc etc etc etc, but neither had we done this with the other speakers we compared them to, all significantly better and loads cheaper in the case of the Rega RS5!!!!!
Thing is, the "in" dealers will tell you that you have to spend £15K on a source at least, as they're so "revealing" (my a*se :D).
Speakers are personal, but there are good ones, reasonable ones and bad ones, the problems of which no matching system or room can eradicate. IMO, the Ovator models belong in the "should have been strangled before birth" category - sorry.. The NBL's were in a different league altogether, although the best fully active version wasn't any better than a nice pair of ATC 50ASL's or 100ASL's at a fraction of the price IMO.
The thread on PF goes on and on and on, but seems to have hit all the nails securely on the head as to why this has happened and the possible and probable ramifications in years to come. sad, but Naim were getting way out of their depth with the rapidly obsolete computer-streaming stuff I reckon.
Not that naim or focal would care but my opinion on focal speakers are that they sound to hifi and artificial.
Naim speakers i find awful except for the nsat which i heard sound ok.
So not sure how they can help each other on the speaker front.
Although i'am sure they do well financially at the high end level i've always found the best naim to be the cheaper stuff under a grand an item.
Anyway good luck to them both and hope they keep 2 channel alive.
Stu, have you ever heard the Focal Utopia series? They are superb and not at all clinical sounding. They used to be branded 'JM Lab'.
Reid Malenfant
21-08-2011, 21:21
They should be good at the prices :eek:
I have actually used Focal drivers (T90K tweeters) that i bought from Falcon Acoustics back in the day & they really were superb tweeters. A friend of mine bought a Daline kit which used 5 1/4" & the T90Ti which was quite amazing, though i don't think the treble was so well controlled.
The speakers can be very revealing which i think is no bad thing, they just won't suffer bad amplifiers happily. If your amp has any kind of crossover distortion then i reckon Focal tweeters (at least) will certainly show it up ;)
I'd be happy to use any of their drivers though in a properly implemented enclosure, they are superb imo :)
I can't comment on their own speakers as i have never heard any :lol: I just know the drivers to be well above average quality wise.
Yep, the JM Lab Mezzo Utopias I used to have had superb driver integration. The w-sandwich mid and bass units were no slouches, and the Tioxid tweeters were superb as you say.
sq225917
21-08-2011, 22:57
No screechiness hear from my Focals, in fact I had John Westlake around on Friday and he commented on how very good they sounded for cone driver loudspeakers, he an ESL guy.
I heard the 400's at MAnchester and thought they sounded more than decent and applicable at the price, the 600's I've never heard sound even or balanced.
ursus262
22-08-2011, 17:08
I've had the pain of listening to the Ovator 400's and despite the lovely build and finish (why is the socket bank so loose in the cabinet - can't be to make it sound better surely - snigger - ) and can confirm they're truly awful. Incredibly harsh, shreiky smeared mids, splattery treble, no definition whatsoever and any bass quality totally over-ridden by the cacophany above.
Speakers are personal, but there are good ones, reasonable ones and bad ones, the problems of which no matching system or room can eradicate. IMO, the Ovator models belong in the "should have been strangled before birth" category - sorry..
..... but Naim were getting way out of their depth with the rapidly obsolete computer-streaming stuff I reckon.
Just two points. Firstly, I have been given to understand that the Ovators do take a long time to run in apparently. Secondly, as a NaimUniti owner, I am surprised at your comment about them being out of their depth with respect to streaming and computer audio. The Uniti range is really very good and is quite ground-breaking. The Uniti is easy to use, and works perfectly during streaming. It's a very versatile device too, as it accepts digital inputs into its DAC and the sound quality is stunning. All of their streaming products are UPNP compliant.
I'd still like to hear a pair of S400s that have been well run-in as I've heard conflicting opinions so I'll keep an open mind.
Neil McCauley
22-08-2011, 20:20
I have been given to understand that the Ovators do take a long time to run in apparently.
Now then, a serious question. It might be blindingly obvious to NAIM retailers and possibly NAIM owners too, but I truly fail to understand why if these speakers require extensive breaking in, why this isn’t carried out in the factory? Does anyone know for sure?
Harbeth don’t offer such a stipulation / recommendation and in 35 years n this industry I've rarely stocked a speaker brand that did. Not Gale, not Lentek, not Apogee, not ATC, not Meridian.
The cynic in me seems to think (but possibly erroneously) that this NAIM breaking-in period is yet another part of the ‘mystique’ that seeks to demonstrate that the brand / marque is positioned / perceived at a level beyond it’s true worth. But if so, then that tactic is so patently obvious as to be both risky and absurd. So someone, please enlighten me. Thanks. Howard.
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Reid Malenfant
22-08-2011, 20:33
Hi Howard, i purchased some bass drivers a while ago, they are refered to as sub woofers ;) Now these things are kind of large (15") & they have a very low resonance frequency (below 20Hz) once run in...
I'd suggest that only bass speakers need to be broken in as the suspensions will become a tad less resilient given a bit of time. Any midrange or treble drivers need not apply imo... They move next to nothing anyway so what is there to break in? :scratch:
These bass drivers can move 60mm pk-pk (linear) so i think i can understand where this break in comes from...
But a few or 1mm, nah, i don't think so...
in my 30 ears experience of 'hifi', the only way to 'break in' a Naim or Linn speaker / piece of electronics/ 'transcription turntable' is to put a hammer through it.
this is opinion based on genuine experience.
i agree with dsjr's assessment of the naim/focal merger viz-a viz thee streaming cobblers etc.
ps: I find if one drinks distilled water and has ones curtains pinned back with sewing needles, the sound of ones revealing naim active system improves considerably to stewardian levels of fanatical levels of musicalityzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
the future lies with valves and vinyl 2 channel and mono. fact :stalks:
Maybe Linn should be merged with ASDA?
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You are such a bitch Howard
....... but a rather funny bitch.:lolsign:
Now then, a serious question. It might be blindingly obvious to NAIM retailers and possibly NAIM owners too, but I truly fail to understand why if these speakers require extensive breaking in, why this isn’t carried out in the factory? Does anyone know for sure?
Harbeth don’t offer such a stipulation / recommendation and in 35 years n this industry I've rarely stocked a speaker brand that did. Not Gale, not Lentek, not Apogee, not ATC, not Meridian.
The cynic in me seems to think (but possibly erroneously) that this NAIM breaking-in period is yet another part of the ‘mystique’ that seeks to demonstrate that the brand / marque is positioned / perceived at a level beyond it’s true worth. But if so, then that tactic is so patently obvious as to be both risky and absurd. So someone, please enlighten me. Thanks. Howard.
Well, my speaker manufacturer (Sonus Faber) does mention run-in, but only as a very minor improvement with time.
This fits my personal experience with speakers (in general) : some run-in makes them work slightly better.
But : in no case a new speaker is radically different from a broken-in one. Not as far as I know. ;)
Neil McCauley
22-08-2011, 21:13
You are such a bitch Howard
....... but a rather funny bitch.:lolsign:
Indeed. Indeed. And thank you.
Neil McCauley
22-08-2011, 21:16
Well, my speaker manufacturer (Sonus Faber) does mention run-in, but only as a very minor improvement with time.
This fits my personal experience with speakers (in general) : some run-in makes them work slightly better.
But : in no case a new speaker is radically different from a broken-in one. Not as far as I know. ;)
Thank you for this. You've pretty much summed up my own views. Meanwhile, I'd forgotten that I sold Sonus Faber in their early years. This recollection, caused by you has truly left a rather warm glow inside me. I'd totally forgotten just how much I loved the sound of those things. So - a sincere thank you. Howard
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You're welcome, Howard. :)
Stu, have you ever heard the Focal Utopia series? They are superb and not at all clinical sounding. They used to be branded 'JM Lab'.
Martin,
thinking about it i heard a pair of very expensive jmlabs standmounts at bristol some years ago.
Hooked up with a very expensive sony sacd and amp, it was one of the best systems i've ever heard.
Most of the focals i've heard have just had that hi fi sound which annoys me.
Only heard them at shows so could be different in a home set up.
ursus262
23-08-2011, 06:44
in my 30 ears experience of 'hifi', the only way to 'break in' a Naim or Linn speaker / piece of electronics/ 'transcription turntable' is to put a hammer through it.
Charming!
i do wonder why people engage in Naim-bashing. Is it motivated by jealousy or envy? I wonder :eyebrows:
In Jonathan's case, Dave, I think you might be barking up the wrong tree! ;)
Marco.
The cynic in me seems to think (but possibly erroneously) that this NAIM breaking-in period is yet another part of the ‘mystique’ that seeks to demonstrate that the brand / marque is positioned / perceived at a level beyond it’s true worth. But if so, then that tactic is so patently obvious as to be both risky and absurd. So someone, please enlighten me. Thanks. Howard.
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I'm extremely suspicious of 'breaking in' or 'burning in' caveats (to be fair such claims go way beyond just Naim). I suspect they're more to do with the hope/expectation that the purchaser will learn to live with the less pleasant traits of the equipment than with any actual change in its sound.
My favourite is a certain brand of cable, which is said to require lengthy 'burn-in' before it can be heard at its best. Helpfully, its retailers will burn the cable in for you, at a cost, of course!
+1. The whole issue of 'burn-in' (and warm-up) with cables or equipment, whilst relevant in some cases, is HUGELY exaggerated!
As an ex-'Naimee', and member of the Naim forum in 'ye olde days', I used to laugh out loud when people claimed that when they switched off their Naim kit for any length of time (for whatever reason), that it would then take weeks, or even MONTHS, for it to come back on song (when the reality was an hour or so).....
Utter bobbins of the highest order, and purely a symptom of their audio neurosis!! :mental:
Marco.
flatpopely
23-08-2011, 09:15
+1.
Utter bobbins of the highest order, and purely a symptom of their audio neurosis!! :mental:
Marco.
I concur. Warm up exists in NAIM amps but I dont hear any improvement in the pre only the PSU and Power Amps and they are up to speed in an hour.
Even so its a very subtle change.
hifi_dave
23-08-2011, 09:21
Naim themselves or their Reps do not come out with all this cobblers that's put forward on the Forum.
IMO, it's a load of impressionable twerps, attempting to show how perceptive and discerning they are. Naim are an extremely practical and down to earth company to deal with.
Naim themselves or their Reps do not come out with all this cobblers that's put forward on the Forum.
IMO, it's a load of impressionable twerps, attempting to show how perceptive and discerning they are. Naim are an extremely practical and down to earth company to deal with.
...and many of their products HAVE improved over the decades, in fairness, along with frightening price rises ;)
Lets be honest, many forum people are still stuck in 1985 or so where Linn and Naim are concerned and don't always know the current stuff.
Lets be honest, many forum people are still stuck in 1985 or so where Linn and Naim are concerned and don't always know the current stuff.
Which is precisely why on AoS Linn or Naim are rarely mentioned. People here, who've happily used their kit in the past, have moved on to newer and greener pastures! ;)
Marco.
Yeah, yeah, the grass is always greener.....
Ammonite Audio
23-08-2011, 14:02
As I see things, Focal and Naim have had a fairly close relationship (in the UK at least) for some years, so this merger could work out really well. One of the nicest pairings of equipment that I've heard in the last few years was 1027Be speakers on the end of a SuperNait. It's clearly very tempting for doomsayers to assume that the whole shebang is about to go tits up, but I reckon that they will do nicely together, in these difficult times. I do hope that the UK jobs that Naim have done well to preserve remain, though.
Neil McCauley
23-08-2011, 14:08
I do hope that the UK jobs that Naim have done well to preserve remain, though.
Indeed. But my guess is that this merger is all and only about profit. Human resource well-being would I suspect be very far down the priority list for the 'suits'.
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hifi_dave
23-08-2011, 15:21
Naim and Focal are both relatively very successful companies and would have to be very stupid to change the way the companies operate or are perceived.
Neil McCauley
23-08-2011, 15:23
Naim and Focal are both relatively very successful companies and would have to be very stupid to change the way the companies operate or are perceived.
Given this, I'm deeply surprised and shocked that their respective CEO's aren't currently in line for sainthood. What a dreadful oversight. We demand to know why!
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hifi_dave
23-08-2011, 16:03
I don't understand the connection between 'Sainthood' and business sense...:scratch:
Commercially successful companies will always attract the naysayers and sarcasm - no matter what the industry. it seems to be a rather nasty trait of the British that we always have to put down those more successful than ourselves, or find a reason why (they cheated their way to the top, etc.) and that the "suits" are some sort of alien species that want to extract the life out of all humanity...
griffo104
23-08-2011, 16:28
Commercially successful companies will always attract the naysayers and sarcasm - no matter what the industry. it seems to be a rather nasty trait of the British that we always have to put down those more successful than ourselves, or find a reason why (they cheated their way to the top, etc.) and that the "suits" are some sort of alien species that want to extract the life out of all humanity...
Very good point, we should see these for what they are, successful. Regardless of how they get there, and good marketing is all about getting to be successful, look at companies such as Rolex.
Both Focal and Naim are financially secure, Naim, like Linn, has moved very quickly to take on modern audio requirements rather than try and simply push their cd players and have both done so producing very good kit. Naim have to realise they are audio company renown for their musical reproduction and not do silly things like produce over priced DVD players to take on the mobs of huge Japanese and Korean electronic companies.
Focal are a major player in the audio business, both home and pro markets, and how many other very successful speaker companies use their technology - lots of 'em some of which are at the very highest of the high end.
Lets hope the the merger allows them to share technology and further the success of the brands.
Commercially successful companies will always attract the naysayers and sarcasm - no matter what the industry. it seems to be a rather nasty trait of the British that we always have to put down those more successful than ourselves, or find a reason why (they cheated their way to the top, etc.) and that the "suits" are some sort of alien species that want to extract the life out of all humanity...
Hear, hear! :clap: :clap:
We could do with having more of the American attitude of applauding and celebrating success, instead of snidely finding ways of demeaning and devaluing it, mostly out of sheer jealousy by life's accumulated failures and underachievers!! ;)
If we had more self-starters and entrepreneurs, and successful British businesses, such as Linn and Naim, and less bone-idle scrounger waste-of-space benefit cheats and rioters, perhaps our country would be in better shape, instead of in the shit!!
Marco.
Neil McCauley
23-08-2011, 16:58
........ and that the "suits" are some sort of alien species that want to extract the life out of all humanity...
Hmm. Odd though my thought processes might be – and please forgive me if indeed they are, I seem to recall the statements made by Kraft before the takeover of Cadbury, and what happened afterwards. I put 2 + 2 together and got an incorrect number. Or did I, I wonder? And am I just imagining those events and guilty of stupidly making an irrational connection?
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ursus262
23-08-2011, 17:12
Which is precisely why on AoS Linn or Naim are rarely mentioned. People here, who've happily used their kit in the past, have moved on to newer and greener pastures! ;)
Marco.
Ahem. Are you saying I'm unreconstructed? :lol:
Let me put it this way. I have Naim equipment because I like the sound they make and I love the build quality. I once said to my beloved that this equipment will probably outlive me, and when I die I want to be buried with my Uniti . :eek:
I love their design philosophy and their down to earth approach and their equipment simply oozes class: this pleases me.
I do wonder when there is a Naim discussion whether it's the equipment which is being dissed, or the owners. We aren't daft :)
Neil McCauley
23-08-2011, 17:18
Very good point, we should see these for what they are, successful. Regardless of how they get there, and good marketing is all about getting to be successful, look at companies such as Rolex.
Both Focal and Naim are financially secure, Naim, like Linn, has moved very quickly to take on modern audio requirements rather than try and simply push their cd players and have both done so producing very good kit. Naim have to realise they are audio company renown for their musical reproduction and not do silly things like produce over priced DVD players to take on the mobs of huge Japanese and Korean electronic companies.
Focal are a major player in the audio business, both home and pro markets, and how many other very successful speaker companies use their technology - lots of 'em some of which are at the very highest of the high end.
Lets hope the the merger allows them to share technology and further the success of the brands.
Indeed. But successful for who and what type of success?
Well conceivably the only true measure of success is profit. Nothing wrong with profit. It’s why I’m in business. But if that profit is obtained by ‘rationalisation’ which is merely camouflage for redundancies, then how ethical is that?
Moreover success, first and foremost comes to the investors and shareholders. Nothing wrong with that either. But to assume that because a company is “great” axiomatically means that they put the welfare of their workers anywhere near the top of their priorities is I suggest hopelessly naïve – if not dangerously so.
Possibly both NAIM and Focal are truly pinnacles of excellence in their respective fields? I neither know nor care. Moreover it is I suggest a deflection for the practical reality which, as I see it is this. The combined forces of NAIM and Focal are I suspect incapable of expanding the market as a whole. Thus if I’m correct, their best hope is to increase their market penetration (market share). Fair enough. But that market is in decline!
Consequently to give the ‘suits’ their rewards i.e. a slice of the ‘pie’, then profits need to be maintained. Now in a declining market, one strategy (which I’m neither advocating nor otherwise) is to reduce the build and distribution cost per item sold. On the assumption that they are already highly efficient then logically the headcount must be reduced. The same made by fewer people, right?
In manufacturing, a useful and invariably highly accurate snapshot of costs is that labour (in the western world) in today’s environment usually accounts for 50% of the total.
If anyone can fault my logic while avoiding hero-worship of the brands involved then I’d certainly like to debate it in the open, here on AoS
Thank you
Howard
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Hi Dave,
Ahem. Are you saying I'm unreconstructed? :lol:
Let me put it this way. I have Naim equipment because I like the sound they make and I love the build quality. I once said to my beloved that this equipment will probably outlive me, and when I die I want to be buried with my Uniti . :eek:
I love their design philosophy and their down to earth approach and their equipment simply oozes class: this pleases me.
I do wonder when there is a Naim discussion whether it's the equipment which is being dissed, or the owners. We aren't daft :)
My earlier remarks were simply a reflection of my (considerable) experience of using Naim gear, and now, also valve equipment. What I wrote was in no way designed to denigrate your perfectly valid choice of equipment, so I do hope that you haven't taken it that way.
I ran a system of CDS2/XPS (later XPS2)/52/135s, with Spendor SP100s, for over four years, and loved every minute of it, and I still value aspects of the Naim equipment way of music-making.
Above all though, I respect Naim as a company and the success they have achieved through hard (and smart) work, and through always understanding what their customers want, providing exemplary customer service in the process.
I have also had dinner with Paul Stephenson in his home, with his charming wife, who is a fabulous cook! And I have spent time listening to his wonderful hi-fi system (all Naim, of course) and superb music collection. I am sure that I would be welcome in his home again anytime, as indeed he would be in mine.
So don't think for one second that I'm 'dissing' Naim gear or that I'm anti-Naim, in any way, because nothing could be further from the truth. I have simply moved on and found other equipment, which to my ears, does all the things Naim equipment does well, and more besides.
Enjoy your Naim gear, and don't listen to what the naysayers say, because what you've got is quality kit! :cool:
Marco.
I loved the Uniti I listened to back in March, and it is a great value bit of kit - especially if space is at a premium and you want a "fit and forget" solution.
I'd possibly disagree though with Howard that Naim's market is in decline - in the UK maybe, but their market is 60% export, (ok, they say) - Asia will be a key expansion area for them I suspect.
hifi_dave
23-08-2011, 18:30
Naim's UK sales have increased every year since they started in 1973.
ursus262
23-08-2011, 18:43
I loved the Uniti I listened to back in March, and it is a great value bit of kit - especially if space is at a premium and you want a "fit and forget" solution.
I'd possibly disagree though with Howard that Naim's market is in decline - in the UK maybe, but their market is 60% export, (ok, they say) - Asia will be a key expansion area for them I suspect.
Oh, the Uniti is wonderful, and it's such a versatile device as well, because you can configure it in so many ways. My next step is to upgrade with either new speakers or a NAP 250. I have Monitor Audio RS6s at the moment, but wonder what else is out there. Had considered the Ovator 400s so going to audition them soon.
Oh, the Uniti is wonderful, and it's such a versatile device as well, because you can configure it in so many ways. My next step is to upgrade with either new speakers or a NAP 250. I have Monitor Audio RS6s at the moment, but wonder what else is out there. Had considered the Ovator 400s so going to audition them soon.
I'd strongly suggest trying Harbeth's too, if you can. (There's a Naim and Harbeth dealer not too far from you if you fancy a little trip eastwards into Essex. He makes good tea. :)) The Ovator's are great looking speakers, but for me the Harbeths sounded nicer, if looking a little more anonymous.
Naim's UK sales have increased every year since they started in 1973.
Thanks for clarifying that Dave. I know turnover has, but wasn't aware of the split between territories.
Linn and naim got into streaming pretty quick as they must have learnt from there mistake of not getting involved with the cd player for far to long if my memory serves me well.
I still don't see why they are merging though.
hifi_dave
24-08-2011, 11:00
The majority of specialist Hi-Fi companies throughout the World held off producing CD players at the start. This was a combination of waiting for the technology to mature and the fact that the 'big boys' wouldn't supply the essential mechanisms to anyone else.
I wonder how Naim's UK sales split by product range? My guess would be that their electronics greatly outsell their speakers; after all, electronics are their core strength and they are able to sell complete systems to accompany other brands of speakers.
Focal's core stregth is definitely speakers in both the branded and OEM market. Naim must have looked at Focal's range very carefully and decided that, in time, they could quietly drop their own speakers. This would be my expectation. Future Naim branded speakers would likely be Focal designs.
The marriage of two strong companies to create a total product range in an uncertain market makes a great deal of sense.
That doesn't make much sense to me Martin. Naim have just spent considerable time and money developing the Ovator range - if they didn't want to do speakers any more, they could easily have just not bothered, or re-vamped their existing speaker range.
I think it is well known that the Naim speakers have never been as popular as their electronics - partly because ownership of Naim amplification has often been considered a pre-requisite to owning their speakers. I know that the Ovator range has been a conscious decision to move away from this perceived symbiotic pairing between amps and speakers.
What Focal does have, that Naim does not, is the ability to manufacture drive units from scratch and I would not be surprised to see the two companies working together in that regard. I very much doubt that we will see Naim 'dropping' their loudspeaker range, or the re-branding of Focal loudspeakers.
Tell you guys one thing, last Thursday's visit to dave's and a good look and listen to a Nait 5i showed that indeed, Naim have moved on and the quality of the casework would put many other manufacturers to shame - everything fits, no rattles and no exposed screws either. What's inside the boxes and the quality of reproduction is obviously personal choice ;)
aquapiranha
28-08-2011, 11:05
Naim does indeed have excellent build quality, no argument there.
...no rattles...
Surely every serious manufacturer can make an amp that doesn't rattle!
hifi_dave
28-08-2011, 12:21
They 'can' but many don't.
Don't they - tut-tut!
The idea of bits rattling around inside the case doesn't sound very safe!
Come on, chaps, a bit of rattling shows some 'character'! :eyebrows:
Those of you who drive classic cars here will be able to relate to that........;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
28-08-2011, 14:01
In the past I have had 'bits' loose inside the casework but I believe Dave is referring to the 'ding, dang' noise when you tap the lid of some casework. Maybe nothing to affect the sound but does appear cheap nonetheless and is very easy to damp down.
aquapiranha
28-08-2011, 16:18
I can appreciate great build quality as much as the next bloke, but I do get annoyed by half inch think alloy front panels when the rest of the case is 1/8" mild steel. It certainly looks like they are pandering to the market there, if not cutting corners. Of course, there is a whole other debate concerning build quality affecting circuits due to microphony, or not, depending on which side you are on.
I was loaned a power amp a while ago that had a thick aluminium front panel - it also had a very thin and rattly wrap-around case - It didn't give a good impression (it didn't sound very good either - but that probably had nothing to do with the uninspiring quality of the case work).
Many years ago I received a tuner from a well known manufacturer (not Naim) - the box seemed to rattle. When it was opened up, none of the components were attached - they hadn't come loose, they had never been fixed down!
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