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The Black Adder
03-08-2011, 09:12
Hello.

I'm thinking of changing my cart. Currently got the Ortofon Rondo Red MC cart which is very nice but because I'm not playing records as much as I used to I'm thinking of downgrading to a Moving magnet cart.

Also because of space I'm also thinking of using the phono stage in my Croft pre from now on too.

Anyways, does anyone have any good suggestions for a decent (not expensive) MM cart for this arm?

Cheers
Joe

Dominic Harper
03-08-2011, 09:18
Hi Joe. Which 3009 do you have? Is it an improved with or without detachable headshell, or is it an earlier 3009 with long counterweight stub?

Nagaoka's will work well on the sme, or vintage shures.

Alex_UK
03-08-2011, 09:25
The Shures were the classic combination back in the day, but I've been very happy with a Nagaoka MP-15 and now an MP-30 - so they would definitely get my recommendation. One point bearing in mind though is they work better with a Sumiko headshell (if yours is the detachable version) but you'll either need to get the 140g heavy counterweight (rare as hen's teeth second hand, or expensive from SME, though still available) or alternatively improvise as I have with some coins, blu-tack, a plastic WD40 can lid and some silver paint!!

The Black Adder
03-08-2011, 10:02
thanks guys. It's the original 3009 with the detachable headshell. It's not the MKII.

The headshell is the standard black one with that is perforated holes. Is this ok with the Shure or MP-30?

Which model Shure would it be?

DSJR
03-08-2011, 10:22
Get a Sumiko headshell and maybe an old Shure M70/75 or better, a V15 body and fit a Jico SAS stylus to them. I get the feeling you'll be in for a very pleasant surprise :) - I've compared a good Shure VN35E to their later VN35HE for the V15 III and the difference wasn't subtle at all. The SAS profile and very careful build (more sophisticated than standard Jico offerings) takes these old Shures to a different level IMO.

The Nagaoka's are great too but rather expensive new, as are the current Ortofons.

I've seen Doms highly interesting re-build on a humble Goldring G800 and just don't have the funds available to indulge myself on one. Since the G800 and 820 can give a lovely midrange in standard form, it would be interesting to try a better diamond type/profile to see what happens, although I do remember the G800 Super-E at the time being well respected in the tier below the Shure V15's, top Empires and top ADC's of the period


P.S. Another goodie which can still be got (just) is the old Ortofon M20FL Super - should be perfect in a non-improved 3009 with more solid shell, tracking at 1.5g once run in (mine needed it). Don't confuse with the Dual m20e, as this is a VMS20e in disguise I think.....

Dominic Harper
03-08-2011, 10:57
Dave, I agree the Jico sas styli are very good indeed and transform humble vintage shures. I would opt for a vintage shure M75 and upgrade to the sas styli, plus get the Sumiko headshell. Total cost would be around £200 but will sound like £800!
Worth considering getting the sme re-wired as this will elevate its performance even further.

The Black Adder
03-08-2011, 11:00
Thanks for the info Dave. v. interesting...

Thing is, I'm looking to keep the look of the SME arm so I'm after something to fit that headshell. A simple plug and play.

The Black Adder
03-08-2011, 11:56
would the Shure carts fit my headshell ok? - Sorry, I've not really had many changes of stylus to be honest.

Dingdong
03-08-2011, 12:12
The Shure's will fit the SME headshell. Until very recently I was using a 3009 mkII with a Shure VST V and it sounded rather nice.
I swapped out the SME headshell for an ADC one and it gave a small improvement. The ADC is available for a modest sum as I've now replaced the arm with a Hadcock. The 3009 will shortly be appearing on an auction site.

Forgot to add that getting the arm rewired will give a massive improvement. I did mine with vdh MSS-07.

The Black Adder
03-08-2011, 13:48
btw... just out of interest, which is the best all rounder diamond type? Eliptical, Nude or both?

DSJR
03-08-2011, 14:46
Dom will need to come in as well, as he's working intimately with styli now...

Elliptical is one of the better profiles IF it's done right. Shure's Hyper Elliptical (HE) styli were from memory "proper" elliptical profiles less compromised than their earlier types, which were rather variable I remember and not always well aligned (the M75-ED could be awful here, with mis-aligned cantilevers and all sorts..)

A "naked diamond" means a tiny diamond chip inserted into or brazed onto the cantilever, giving lower mass than a diamond chip brazed onto a piece of metal or other stone, this then mounted on the cantilever. This was the main difference between the ADC VLM and XLM for example, or the Shure M75E and M75-ED, this latter seemingly based on the V15 II once the Mk III had come out.

Many attempts have come and gone to improve the profile of the stylus tip. Shibata were one of the first, and they had several variants over the decades, as some played the groove bottom too much (unbearable on worn or noisy records). Loads of other types have come along since and I suspect that many of them share some characteristics (HELP PLEASE DOM :)). Giger, Stereohedron, VDH, "Microscanner," AT's ML type and SAS all try to improve end-of-side tracing and tracking, improving the treble performance especially, the downside being critical setup and possible problems with dirty discs. One good thing about these is that records played on groove-grinders of the 50's and 60's can SOMETIMES be given a new lease of life, as these special tip profiles trace different and less worn parts of the groove.

Getting the profile right is vital, even with conical tips and a decent standard of grind and polish pays dividends with this type too, witness the much loved Denon 103 on the one hand and Stanton's 500V3 on the other, this latter promoted with extra careful polishing (mine's not bad at all).

Hope I'm not a jumbled mess with the above.....

Re the SME headshell. If you investigate the SAS Shure approach (I don't know how much Dom or EsCo would charge to fit a new decent diamond on an existing Shure assembly (their suspensions seem to last well), some of SME's headshell gunge (blac-tac I believe) will damp the shell and ensure greater contact. Not such an issue with later Shures (era IV onwards) as the contact area is tiny in the first place. I've said this many times, but the difference in placing a small square of card-table green baize betwixt V15 III and SME shell was quite marked and preferable sonically as well, so should make for a very cheap and easily reversible option.

Regarding cartridge screws. From habit, if at all possible, I use 2.5mm hex-head Allen screws and nuts. For a high compliance cartridge with a usually soft plastic body, these can be lethal if over-tightened, but I must admit to liking an SME shell with bolt-head on top and nuts underneath nipped up gently to hold the cartridge firmly but without crushing the mounting lugs on the cartridge. Common sense prevails here of course - and a sensitive touch, which I for one lacked in my Linn days - cough - .......

Dominic Harper
03-08-2011, 16:06
Right, I'm here Dave. To be honest you have explained he fundamentals pretty well.
Non nude tips rely on a non diamond mount for the diamond tip. This is then attached to the cantilever by means of adhesive.
Nude tips are mounted directly to the cantilever, no intermediate mount involved thus lowering tip mass and more robust. Non nude tips have a tendancy to fall off!
Stylus profile is important for detail retreival and also depends on cartridge compliance.
I would not use a conical tip on a high compliance cartridge. Conical tips favour high tracking force.
Not all tips are made equal. The finish on a tip is all important. I have seen some very crude looking styli.
Gem stone quality are best, having a highly polished finish.

Conicals are at the bottom of the stylus tree, followed by various elliptical profiles. These vary greatly. Hyper ellipticals follow next. These include Shibata types.
Next we have complex line contact styli. These include Van Den Hul, Paratrace, Jico SAS and Fritz Gyger.

Now, don't get too hung up over profiles. For your needs with the SME arm a good elliptical on a nude mount will be wonderfull. If you really want to push the boat out, get a Jico SAS and consider it job done!

Advanced profiles ( ellipticals and line contacts) are not really designed for end of side distortion. This tends to be a result of poor setup.
They were designed to extract more information from micro grooves ( stereo records).

I have heard great results from even conical tips. They have to be correctly mounted to the cantilever and tracking pretty high, compared to modern carts that is. Trouble is, conical tips get a bad press because they are cheap to produce and consequently get used on poor quality cartridges.

I'm babbling on here and hope some of this helps.
Dave is pretty spot on with his advice of obtaining a Shure/ Jico sas tip and using that in the original SME headshell.
But as I said before, get the arm re-wired as well and you will be more than happy with the results.

DSJR
03-08-2011, 19:46
Many thanks Dom. One day, I'll have a go at re-wiring. The techie arms can be got at fairly easily I think and I have a kenwood 750 arm to experiment on as well :)

Neil McCauley
03-08-2011, 23:24
I achieved excellent results with:

Shure V15 - natural synergy
Pickering
Stanton
Grado
Grace F9E (very good indeed)
Nearly any Goldring, especially the green one, the model number escapes me
Sonus.

Hope this helps. Regards. Howard.


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Dingdong
04-08-2011, 06:34
If you fancied a new Shure I'm sure the M97xe would do very well with a 3009.

Dominic Harper
04-08-2011, 06:42
97xe's have production problems and cannot be recommended in my experience.

Dingdong
04-08-2011, 06:45
Ok, scratch that idea then.:doh:

DSJR
04-08-2011, 09:05
The 97XE, if bought cheaply enough, can be re-tipped or re-styli'd. At one point recently, they could be bought for under £50..

The ever-popular Pickering XV15/625 is a safe-as-houses cartridge which should be quite at home in an S2 SME I think. best to use the plastic inserts on the fixings to prevent hum-loops.

The Black Adder
05-08-2011, 09:09
guys that is most helpful. many thanks for the explanation.

I've often wondered about the tips as there are quite a few. Generally, I want good bass, nothing too bright in the highs, a nice midrange and a solid/3d image.

I guess this may be the grail but if I can get as near to this I'll be very happy. Got my Ortofon up for grabs now too.

I think I'll go down the shure cart with a Jico sas stylus. Do you know if these are available in the Uk or are they Japan only?

Dingdong
05-08-2011, 09:21
As far as I know it's just Japan. Which Shure are you planning to go for?

DSJR
05-08-2011, 09:28
I think you can mail-order them directly...

http://stylus.export-japan.com/index.php?cPath=18&sort=2a&page=6

Gromit
06-08-2011, 14:18
Sir will be wanting one of these...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5745.jpg

SAS Jico tipped M75 in a Sumiko headshell - I'm chuffed to bits with it and it works very nicely in my pre-improved 3009. A big sound, surprisingly agile for an 'old' cartridge too, it sounds modern yet still with that pleasingly warm, full-bodied presentation which cartridges like the DL103 have.

The Black Adder
06-08-2011, 18:11
Cheers guys.

Thanks Richard.. Yeah, thats what I'm after for the Thorens. Just need to sell my Ortofon.

Great pic btw.. :)

Rare Bird
06-08-2011, 21:59
Sumi headshell would kill the vintage look. I use ADC carts with 3009 sounded great but styli are expensive. Goldring G900 series sounded good.

DSJR
06-08-2011, 23:22
I like the Sumiko headshell myself :) but I'd suggest the spacer under the arm-base. Can't remember if I've said that before and been told it is preferred that way????

Rare Bird
06-08-2011, 23:26
All loverly Dave but take a look at the Authentic system, last thing he wants is a trendy shell

The Black Adder
07-08-2011, 06:48
your right andre... I want to keep the original look, I like it too much.. lol

I'm sure it will be fine with the orignial SME headshell wouldn't it? I'd love an SPU but foookin ell.. they aren't cheap.