View Full Version : Is audiophilia not for everyone?
magiccarpetride
25-07-2011, 20:57
I'm not asking that from the price/maintenance point of view. I've noticed that some people, who had never before heard a good sounding stereo system, immediately perk up and even get blown away when they come over to my house and hear my audio system. Others may not even notice anything unusual. Even if prodded with pointed questions (such as "so how do you like the sound of my stereo?") they wouldn't have any particular opinion (maybe a polite "yeah, it sounds nice", just to brush me off).
There are times when I have some people over, and they get startled by the sheer size and unusual looks of my Maggies. They sometimes inquire "and what are these?", and then get VERY surprised upon learning that these big thin 'dividers' are actually loudspeakers. More often than not, they'd be curious to hear how the hell are these even producing the sound. After I play some tunes for them, I never know what kind of reaction will I get. Some people really get blown away by the realism of the sound reproduction, while other people may not react at all.
This made me think that enjoyment of the high quality music reproduction may not be everyone's cup of tea. There are apparently people who, even if you were to give them an ultra high end audio system as a gift, wouldn't be in the position to appreciate it. What's even more surprising to me is that many of these unimpressionable people are actually working musicians. You'd expect that musicians would be highly sensitized to the quality of sound, but many of them don't really seem to care one bit either way.
So I'm now starting to form an opinion that maybe this hobby of ours takes a special kind of person. Thoughts?
Covenant
25-07-2011, 21:07
I have thought about this too. My wife, for example, loves music and sings whenever she can. Yet if I call her in to listen to something she is impatient or bored. If she likes music so much why doesn't she like hearing it on half decent equipment?
I think many people don't find listening enough entertainment;fine when its attached to a film or concert but the music alone is not enough.
Ali Tait
25-07-2011, 21:09
Yes, have to agree with that, I've experienced similar. I wouldn't say it takes a special person though, most peeps do appreciate the SQ, but they just don't care enough about it to want it for themselves.
I find it strange that not everyone wants a decent system.
But i guess there a lot of people who find it weird that i couldn't give a toss about driving an old banger.
To me a car is just a means to get from a to b and i gues most people have the same approach around a stereo.
I have thought about this too. My wife, for example, loves music and sings whenever she can. Yet if I call her in to listen to something she is impatient or bored. If she likes music so much why doesn't she like hearing it on half decent equipment?
.
My wife is the same but she can't sing for toffee, she just says it all sounds the same and still looks a mess, why can't we have a nice neat and tidy Bose instead she says :steam:
I think some people are just deaf to it all especially if they don't share your interest and some say passion in how it sounds :scratch:
I totally agree with this. For some people, the mere fact that music is being played is enough. Quality doesn't matter, and its not they they're not sensitive to it, it's because it's not important to them. The same applies to tv. My wife would quite happily watch a VHS video, or a DVD I recorded in it's lowest quality setting so I the film would fit the disc. Sandard def vs hi def; She doesn't care about the difference, and in a way, that is so refreshing.
You know, we might (and do) think "but you're missing so much" but maybe we're missing the point. They just enjoy it while some sit and analyse soundstage and detail etc.
In my experience, women definitely don't seem to care about the differences - I won't say they don't notice, but for some reason, both ex and current wife as well as other long-term girlfriends and female friends just say "that's nice dear" and appear not to give a monkey's. I think a big part of it is the geekiness - a big no-no for the ladies (hence why they just want a Bose :spew:) and part of the attraction for us men. I don't think it is just hi-fi either - most blokes who take up a hobby have to get all the gadgets, read the magazines, go on the 'net (photography, motor bikes, and mountain bikes in my case spring to mind) and generally obsess - women just play a CD, take a picture or go for a nice ride in the country, and then say "that's nice dear!" ;)
Ali Tait
25-07-2011, 21:53
Generally agree with that Alex, though my current other half does appreciate the SQ, and even notices if I change something! She's the first I've come across to do so though....
To be fair, my ex-wife noticed how crap the mini system she bought was compared to my hifi after I took it with me! :lol:
The Vinyl Adventure
25-07-2011, 22:00
You could say the same about anything
Why don't you want a highly tuned sports car ... It's not your hobby
Why wouldn't you want to spend thousands on a camera?
Why don't you have a set of very fine paint brushes?
Name a hobby, name it's corresponding expenses etc ...
Hobbies are all encompassing, those who are involved in them are likely not to understand the perspective of those outside of them as it's such a far stretch from your own perspective ...
But it's quite logical if you think about it ... People who arent interested in hifi arent interested because they aren't interested in hifi ...
They don't hear what you hear because they have little reference ...
They hear good, but to them there is only good and bad, not many shades of grey ... Why would there be?
To me a fast car is a fast car?
A soft paint brush might be a good thing?
Cameras ... Well ... ...
Ali Tait
25-07-2011, 22:05
To be fair, my ex-wife noticed how crap the mini system she bought was compared to my hifi after I took it with me! :lol:
:lolsign: Aye, my ex wife said the same, said she didn't miss me, but did miss the hi fi!
rusty bearing
25-07-2011, 22:09
In my experience, women definitely don't seem to care about the differences - I won't say they don't notice, but for some reason, both ex and current wife as well as other long-term girlfriends and female friends just say "that's nice dear" and appear not to give a monkey's. I think a big part of it is the geekiness - a big no-no for the ladies (hence why they just want a Bose :spew:) and part of the attraction for us men. I don't think it is just hi-fi either - most blokes who take up a hobby have to get all the gadgets, read the magazines, go on the 'net (photography, motor bikes, and mountain bikes in my case spring to mind) and generally obsess - women just play a CD, take a picture or go for a nice ride in the country, and then say "that's nice dear!" ;)
When I threw out the old CRT TV and installed a swanky new flatscreen , my wife actually sat on the sofa and watched it for two whole hours before she realised that something was different!
Yet when I buy something to do with the Hi Fi she notices instantly.....sheesh
When I threw out the old CRT TV and installed a swanky new flatscreen , my wife actually sat on the sofa and watched it for two whole hours before she realised that something was different!
Yet when I buy something to do with the Hi Fi she notices instantly.....sheesh
:lol:
Although to be fair as long as I stick to black I doubt she'd have a clue what is in my rack or the other systems - I just have to pray the postman comes when she's out!
I have thought about this too. My wife, for example, loves music and sings whenever she can. Yet if I call her in to listen to something she is impatient or bored. If she likes music so much why doesn't she like hearing it on half decent equipment?
[...]
For some people: it is not that they do not hear good sound, or do not appreciate good sound for all that, they just do not want to spend that kind of money (being just a very very small part of what they are spending on a new kitchen or car). And, of course, an often heard argument (from the men): "jeesz, she will never let me drag that into our livingroom".
My brothers and sister are kind-hearted interested. My closest (men and women) friends mainly like to see me enjoying myself with my audio. They appreciate what I am trying to do as being simply a part of me.
And my 18 years old son? He is really and heavy into music (like I was when I was that age). Not into Sound, but into Music. (He not only listens and explores music, he plays (bass guitar) in some bands as well.) But not much has changed, I guess. In the 1970's we all listened through crappy, or at least simple, systems. And we loved our music.
My son Boke is listening, like everyone, MP3's on pc and iPod. Maybe not quite as everyone, because he does listen to complete albums. And he LOVES (his) music! As all his friends do.
Said again: nothing has changed really.
When I find him sitting, or lying, in the centre of my Maggies forest (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11489) ... he is listening to Radiohead. He states that (only) "In Rainbows" MUST be listened to through my system.
Here's - again - my first system (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11494): the Music, not the Sound, back then :
http://www.thurbroeders.nl/images/TAOS/philips.jpg http://www.thurbroeders.nl/images/TAOS/radio.jpg http://www.thurbroeders.nl/images/TAOS/keulsepot.jpg
I'm not asking that from the price/maintenance point of view. I've noticed that some people, who had never before heard a good sounding stereo system, immediately perk up and even get blown away when they come over to my house and hear my audio system. Others may not even notice anything unusual. Even if prodded with pointed questions (such as "so how do you like the sound of my stereo?") they wouldn't have any particular opinion (maybe a polite "yeah, it sounds nice", just to brush me off).
?
I use a different method with visitors which is that I never say or do anything to draw attention to the system except for occasionally changing the record or cd. I like comments to be totally unforced and unprompted. A mate came around a couple of weeks back when everything was in flux (I have made a few changes recently) and said, unprompted, 'this sounds a bit flat to me' which was great because I was thinking the same thing but of course you make a few changes and it becomes a 'can't see the wood for the trees' thing.
The times I have had things sounding really good it is amazing that pretty much everyone will comment on it even when playing at background levels. That's both sexes ages 16 to 70 - if it sounds good - 'musical' they will notice.
Those of you with spouses - face it lads - they deliberately play it down so as not to encourage you - as if you needed it:lolsign:
magiccarpetride
25-07-2011, 23:01
You could say the same about anything
Why don't you want a highly tuned sports car ... It's not your hobby
Why wouldn't you want to spend thousands on a camera?
Why don't you have a set of very fine paint brushes?
Name a hobby, name it's corresponding expenses etc ...
Hobbies are all encompassing, those who are involved in them are likely not to understand the perspective of those outside of them as it's such a far stretch from your own perspective ...
But it's quite logical if you think about it ... People who arent interested in hifi arent interested because they aren't interested in hifi ...
They don't hear what you hear because they have little reference ...
They hear good, but to them there is only good and bad, not many shades of grey ... Why would there be?
To me a fast car is a fast car?
A soft paint brush might be a good thing?
Cameras ... Well ... ...
Yeah, I agree, but that wasn't my inquiry. As I said, I'm not approaching this from a price point. Sure, having a high quality anything requires serious financial commitment, and that's why every high end hobby has so few aficionados.
What puzzles me here is how different people react differently when faced, for the first time in their life, with quality. For example, there's a lot of people out there who have never been in the position to hear a truly high quality audio reproduction. Upon experiencing it for the first time, they react differently. Why is that?
It's the same as tasting a really good glass of wine for the first time in your life. You may not be a wine aficionado, but that still does not prevent you from being blown away by a really high end glass of wine.
And yet, different people will react differently to that experience. Some will feel that their knees buckle, while some others will say "hmm, interesting." Others may say "uggh, I don't even like wine!"
The Grand Wazoo
25-07-2011, 23:14
It's the same as tasting a really good glass of wine for the first time in your life. You may not be a wine aficionado, but that still does not prevent you from being blown away by a really high end glass of wine.
And yet, different people will react differently to that experience. Some will feel that their knees buckle, while some others will say "hmm, interesting." Others may say "uggh, I don't even like wine!"
.........but very few will get seriously interested in high quality wines, because they've got other stuff going on in their lives and priorities and families ...........and...........well, just stuff.
It's the same with music for most people, they like it and enjoy it, but just hearing any old way is enough for most people, most of the time.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-07-2011, 23:32
This is my point!
People d
I think ultimately the link will often be the passion for music or the potential to have such a passion. If you are not really interested in music, then I doubt whatever system you put in front of them is going to make their knees buckle with delight.... you just get, 'yeah that sounds nice, can you pass the cheese'
And if they don't have that interest they won't know or care about what sounds good, it's just music. So if they don't have any interest they won't even know what a good system should sound like. I think your personality is very impactive too, all the people I know that like music are thoughtful emotional people, who are quite deep thinkers with inquiring minds who know what's going on in the world. I can't say I know many people who are interested in music, who sit outside that description actually :scratch:
So I think it's more about the person than anything - some of us have musical souls, some don't and enjoying it at our level is definitely a minority pursuit!
The Vinyl Adventure
25-07-2011, 23:42
This is my point!
People dont see what you see or hear because it's not within thier area of interest
Golf clubs is probably a better example ...
If I showed you a really nice golf club and spent ages telling you about all the things that make it cost £500 you would probably show slight interest for a bit then probably start trying to tell me about your hifi... (assuming you don't play golf)
Quality hifi, music production etc is just not part of most people's lives ...
Just like golf isn't ...
Quality is subjective, and relative ... Without understanding the grey areas of the quality of hifi and music production how can anyone comment other than to say "well yes, it sounds better than my car radio" but that doesn't mean yet will give a toss that it sounds better ... Why would they??? They went into hifi!
If you put a really nice glass of wine on the table in front of me next to an average one I might not be able to say which was which ... Of the nice one was a merlot I'd probably prefer the other one anyway (I don't like merlot) ...
If I put a £500 golf club in your hand would you be able to tell me it was a good club? And would you give a shot if it was or wasnt?
WOStantonCS100
25-07-2011, 23:45
What's even more surprising to me is that many of these unimpressionable people are actually working musicians. You'd expect that musicians would be highly sensitized to the quality of sound, but many of them don't really seem to care one bit either way.
One would have to have one helluva system to get anywhere near what I experience, for good or bad, on (a well setup/laid out) stage. I have never heard any system, at any cost, equal that. I stand with my guitar strapped to me. I can feel the vibrations of the strings on my body. I stand in front of my amp. I can feel the vibrations it sends across the stage floor. If it's loud enough, my pants move! There is a lot of air moving. And, standing next to a concert grand piano in a performance hall!!! It's just not the same scale and a little hard to be impressed after that. ;) Audiophiles replay the experience through a recorded medium and usually two speakers. Musicians live the experience, regularly. Huge difference. From rock/pop to jazz quintet/big band to a member of a symphony... to compete with that, stereo, even multi-channel audio, has to go right out the window. A 360 degree system with unbelievable force (and delicacy) would be needed.
I do love and prefer great stereo playback (of course); but, realistically, it's only a window on the world, so to speak. Still, I know many musicians (including myself) who are indeed very discerning and demanding when it comes to playback gear. It always depends on the person.
And though I sometimes imagine it would be great if my spouse shared my passion... ...I'd hate to have to compete for the use of the turntable, or wake up to find that she tube rolled my preamp in the wee small hours of the night or swapped out my favorite interconnects for her preferred... ;) ...but I'm a selfish git.
I work with a girl from the Punjab and shes always singing bollywood songs to herself (not a bad voice as it goes ) but she says she could never sit down and listen to music. Were weid, we like to listen to sound textures as much as appreciating a melody or lyric. Two different ways of enjoying music. If youre only interested in the tune then you can play it on any old thing.
I did notice at clubs though that everyone responds to a quality sound system.
People dont see what you see or hear because it's not within thier area of interest
Exactly :)
Wow! What wonderful sensitive people us audiophiles are :)
Absolutely fascinating that our women folk, past and present are pretty much tone deaf with zero appreciation of our deep emotional involvement with our music :rolleyes:
I’ve got to admit, a small tear gently trickled down my cheek when I consider the thousands of pounds we selflessly spend on the racks of gleaming equipment, the endless hours spent on various forums commenting about this or that wonderful musical performance given up by some musician who probably doesn’t have any appreciation of subtle tones, the width of the soundstage, the resolution of the recording, that gentle colouration imparted to the sound by a warmly glowing valve :scratch:
Frankly I think it’s a wonder musicians manage to hit a single note and how the f**k women can play any instrument at all is nothing short of a miracle :mental:
Of course and quite naturally, we want others to appreciate our love of music and invite our friends around to listen to that latest musical masterpiece we have just discovered.
Okay, we get a bit upset when they start to sing along.
Allright, I admit it, we get a bit pissy when they happen to mention the brilliant atmosphere at the concert of the same performer they attended last week.
So, I’ve been left crying on the floor when one of my friends pulled out his mp3 player mid session and asked me to listen to this great track he had found.
“What about the sound quality I cry, isn’t it wonderful?” What do I get as a reply? “Yeah, its okay but I’m not over keen on that band”
Feck! Got seriously caught out once again. They were listening to the music and not fully appreciating the quality of my system.
(must make note to self, don’t ask other people round so I can show off my equipment.)
Much like the rest of you, I’ve tried to show my musical appreciation by taking a few snaps of the equipment I use for replay.
(I mean its blatantly obvious from the pictures that its going to sound fantastic isn't it (?))
Consider all the anally retentive posts concerning this tweak or that I’ve done to my system, I’ve even mentioned a few songs I like somewhere.
Come on, I gotta be in the club by now surely. I even stuck a picture of one of my saxophones in my gallery….strange nobody commented on it :scratch:
Come on guys, lets get a grip here, the hobby is Hi Fi. Its so much about Hi Fi that some here have even stopped listening to tunes they obviously loved at some point in their lives because the equipment they play them on make them sound like shit apparently :scratch:
I agree with my daughters. “Dad you’re weird. Why do you need all that stuff to listen to music? It doesn’t make the music sound any better.”
Yours faithfully
a musician, a male and a self acknowledged audiophile ;)
I think ultimately the link will often be the passion for music or the potential to have such a passion. If you are not really interested in music, then I doubt whatever system you put in front of them is going to make their knees buckle with delight.... you just get, 'yeah that sounds nice, can you pass the cheese'
And if they don't have that interest they won't know or care about what sounds good, it's just music. So if they don't have any interest they won't even know what a good system should sound like. I think your personality is very impactive too, all the people I know that like music are thoughtful emotional people, who are quite deep thinkers with inquiring minds who know what's going on in the world. I can't say I know many people who are interested in music, who sit outside that description actually :scratch:
So I think it's more about the person than anything - some of us have musical souls, some don't and enjoying it at our level is definitely a minority pursuit!
I think Tim has more or less nailed it :)
I have never heard any system, at any cost, equal that..
Maybe you just need better speaker cables? :scratch:
:lol:
cheers
ken
I think the answer is more complex than we think, because the average person has so few references to what "quality sound" is all about.
I had some friends call round last year and they asked me to "put the stereo on" so I did. Agreed, the system was at cold but still sounding great nonetheless, so I was asked to turn it up so she could hear the bass. The volume was way past what I would normally set it at and you could feel more than hear the bass but she was adamant it needed turning up some more. Her take on bass is the very loud very distorted bass you find in a disco and if I couldn't recreate that in my listening room then I "need to sort it out because it is lacking in bass" WTF? :scratch: Should have got her sozzled and overheated first? :lol:
The average person links "loud" with "distorted".
The average person mostly listens to music in the car and what is installed in cars is not what I would call hi-fi.
The average person buys "hi-fi" from Currys, Argos, Dixons or their club book. It must be hi-fi because it says so on the label. So why do us nutters spend all that money on these expensive boxes when we could buy genuine hi-fi from these places?
WOStantonCS100
26-07-2011, 04:33
Maybe you just need better speaker cables? :scratch:
:lol:
cheers
ken
Dang, Ken, I think you're right!! :lol:
And to John,
I'll have to take a look at your saxophone pic if it's still up; Charlie Parker being my reason for becoming a musician.
-----------------------------------
I like hobbies. Everyone should have one. :) I don't think there is anything necessarily strange about being a music lover and/or a musician yet not an "audiophile". Artists/painters, don't necessarily and quite often don't live in a house that resembles a gallery. They don't have to be surrounded by fantastic and well displayed art in order to create great art. The shift there is creation rather than observation. One is a giver; the other a receiver. Indeed, sometimes the twain meet. Sometimes they don't. Some folks just really dig electronic sound reproducers and/or designing and building them; but, only have a narrow selection of music they like and are fine with listening to "low res" music. S'ok. As long as they keep designing great gear, I'm cool with that.
I used to have a Japanese girlfriend who loved my system she would always alter my speakersr to be more directional. She used to have her own studio and played bass and had perfect pitch I only have relative pitch
We all have our different interests and passions
StanleyB
26-07-2011, 05:48
In my experience, women definitely don't seem to care about the differences
Speaking from a commercial point of view, it's true that more males buy a piece of audio kit with SQ in mind. But going by the number of orders I get from female buyers, there is a sizeable proportion of women out there who do enjoy quality audio reproduction.
Lodgesound
26-07-2011, 09:08
A very odd thing has happened to me in the last few years.
I've always loved good quality sound to the point that over my life so far I have put together some excellent sounding systems based mainly on my experiences actually working in Film and Television studios and control rooms.
I built my own "internal reference" if you like for what I considered to be a good sound when I was around 20 years old and made systems to match that reference.
I grew to really hate working in that particular business largely due to the people who seemed to populate it and left it. Through that period of my life I largely stopped listening to music or watching films or television.
The odd thing is that now I have left it all behind me that "internal reference" still exists and is so strong that in my mind I can compensate for what I listen to even if that actual sound quality on whatever the reproduction equipment is severely lacks any kind of quality. I can listen to a piece of music on Youtube now and what I actually hear is full range high quality sound in my head.
This may sound somewhat strange coming from someone who was formerly so passionate about listening equipment however it has made me understand and feel music far more than I used to and moreover prompted me to actually give away / scrap much of the listening machinery I used to have. That which I do keep very rarely gets used now as I literally don't feel I need it to enjoy music anymore.
I too have met musicians who listen on very modest systems - some of them have nothing but a computer or an ipod in their house but that does not seem to stop them feeling and more to the point playing and creating music with a passion that I myself am only now just beginning to understand.
You're quite right, but I'm not sure that people further back on their audiophile "journey" would feel similar. I'm really not being patronising, but once you've reached as near the pinnacle of your "journey" as you can, and began the descent, one's tastes seem to become far more modest, as experience makes up for any shortcomings in the playback gear. Does this make sense, or am I rambling again????? :scratch:
I just enjoy the current journey re-discovering vintage gear and revelling in it's charm, getting a hopefully better sound from it than when it was new, just by using setup experience and modern cables etc.....
electric beach
26-07-2011, 09:19
When I first met my wife she had a $ony surround sound set-up that she was very proud of - in no small part because she had gone out and bought it herself. She had no point of reference for the sound quality other than what she had heard before, which was not high fidelity, but she had chosen the best she could afford. She thought my unimpressed attitude a bit disingenuous - until she heard my system. She simply didn't know what was possible.
Now with a new reference and exposure she is interested and more than appreciative to have the quality as a user, but it's still MY hobby, the boys fiddling about bit, although she will say "what are we getting/ doing next" and understands that the journey is enjoyable. She will also hear when the system sounds on-song and when it sounds shite. The other week I had a small breakthrough and the system jumped forward two steps. "How does that sound" I asked proudly. "Like you should leave it alone" she wisely replied.
My Ex would just say "Can that be it now?!" :doh:
My brother-in-law bought a fine Musical Fidelity/ TDL system all in one go many years ago. He is a musician and also appreciates quality sound very much, but has not touched his set up since. Not one thing. He's too busy playing guitar and recording to be arsed with the faffing about in order to raise the bar. Simply, he doesn't need the hobby.
I think we're a splinter group of a splinter group...IMHO
The vast majority of people aren't really into music, they just take what's fed to them.
However I have a number of friends who I attend festivals and gigs with, including the missus and several other women. They are actually into music, and can appreciate my system too, however most of them either can't be bothered with the hassle, or have more pressing things to spend their money on than 'high end' hi-fi. These people are usually fairly satisfied with some sort of mini system that fits in with their lifestyle and or budget.
This doesn't stop me trying to point them in the right direction, but it's a bit like the 'how much better is a Porche than a Skoda?' argument...the Skoda will do more than 90% of what the Porche does at a much lower price. :)
If that makes any sense...;)
electric beach
26-07-2011, 09:48
I think we're a splinter group of a splinter group...IMHO
The vast majority of people aren't really into music, they just take what's fed to them.
However I have a number of friends who I attend festivals and gigs with, including the missus and several other women. They are actually into music, and can appreciate my system too, however most of them either can't be bothered with the hassle, or have more pressing things to spend their money on than 'high end' hi-fi. These people are usually fairly satisfied with some sort of mini system that fits in with their lifestyle and or budget.
This doesn't stop me trying to point them in the right direction, but it's a bit like the 'how much better is a Porche than a Skoda?' argument...the Skoda will do more than 90% of what the Porche does at a much lower price. :)
If that makes any sense...;)
Good analogy Will. We would appear to a Petrolhead that we just "don't get it" because we're not interested to chip our engines or pimp our rides.
But I disagree that most people are not into music. The best thing about the MP3 Ipod development is that more people than ever are listening to more music than ever.
But I disagree that most people are not into music. The best thing about the MP3 Ipod development is that more people than ever are listening to more music than ever.
...perhaps you're right, it's probably just me being snobby ;)
Lodgesound
26-07-2011, 10:04
You're quite right, but I'm not sure that people further back on their audiophile "journey" would feel similar. I'm really not being patronising, but once you've reached as near the pinnacle of your "journey" as you can, and began the descent, one's tastes seem to become far more modest, as experience makes up for any shortcomings in the playback gear. Does this make sense, or am I rambling again????? :scratch:
I just enjoy the current journey re-discovering vintage gear and revelling in it's charm, getting a hopefully better sound from it than when it was new, just by using setup experience and modern cables etc.....
I think that sums it up nicely Dave....
electric beach
26-07-2011, 11:38
...perhaps you're right, it's probably just me being snobby ;)
Me too. But I'm fighting it. :lol:
I have thought about this too. My wife, for example, loves music and sings whenever she can. Yet if I call her in to listen to something she is impatient or bored.
Same here, the missus will blissfully rock out listening to the (absolutely terrible) 'stereo' in her car. I sit there and hear tin, sibilance and a void :D
Which one of us who is missing out, is a debate in itself ;¬)
I wouldn't say it takes a special person though, most peeps do appreciate the SQ, but they just don't care enough about it to want it for themselves.
Agreed.
You could say the same about anything...
To me a fast car is a fast car?
A soft paint brush might be a good thing?
Cameras ... Well ... ...
Agreed, each to their (our) own :¬)
magiccarpetride
26-07-2011, 16:59
This is my point!
People dont see what you see or hear because it's not within thier area of interest
Golf clubs is probably a better example ...
If I showed you a really nice golf club and spent ages telling you about all the things that make it cost £500 you would probably show slight interest for a bit then probably start trying to tell me about your hifi... (assuming you don't play golf)
Quality hifi, music production etc is just not part of most people's lives ...
Just like golf isn't ...
Quality is subjective, and relative ... Without understanding the grey areas of the quality of hifi and music production how can anyone comment other than to say "well yes, it sounds better than my car radio" but that doesn't mean yet will give a toss that it sounds better ... Why would they??? They went into hifi!
If you put a really nice glass of wine on the table in front of me next to an average one I might not be able to say which was which ... Of the nice one was a merlot I'd probably prefer the other one anyway (I don't like merlot) ...
If I put a £500 golf club in your hand would you be able to tell me it was a good club? And would you give a shot if it was or wasnt?
I seem to be having difficulty expressing my original point. Once again, and for the record: I'm NOT talking about converting someone to audiophile hobby. All I'm talking about here is a naive, unsuspecting individual, getting exposed to an undeniably high quality sound reproduction for the first time in their lives. You'd expect that such an unsuspecting individual would react to it in one way or another. What's puzzling to me is the wide array of unpredictable reactions.
I'm not puzzled by the fact that even people who are absolutely blown away by the experience don't rush out and acquire the itch to get good stereo for them. That's to be expected, as it requires serious financial commitment.
Give you another analogy: suppose you're fortunate enough to acquire a gorgeous villa situated at the most gorgeous beach front. The villa is of palatial proportions, and has been tastefully decorated by the top quality designers. Suppose you invite some of your friends over, and suppose they all have been born and grew up and still live in some shitty highrise shoebox size apartments. They've never seen anything else, other than those cookie cutter project-style abominable living dwellings.
Would you expect them to be impressed by your villa? Or would you just say, nah, it's not within their sphere of interest? No one who is not into villas will ever even notice anything odd or out of the ordinary.
The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2011, 19:49
That's a crap analogy though ... Everyone understands a good house ... Everyone (apart from the very unfortunate) lives in some sort of abode and most take some level of pride in that abode... Understanding a nice view, is easy ... It's relative to what you look at every day! Peoples surrounding arguably have one of the biggest impact on their lives ... Everyone lives! And anyway, who's to say the designer interior would be to everyone's taste, they still might say "well the locations nice, but I'm not into the decor"
I'm not missing your point alex, your missing mine!
The wide array of reaction is just down to the fact that people are all different ... Some might have had greater experience of hifi, some might just be humouring you, some might be genuinely interested in your hobby, some might have an interest in technology and find your speakers interesting... Some might just not give a toss and would prefer it if you stopped banging on about your hifi (most of my mates)
Why is it difficult to understand that people are all different and react differently to different things?
Back to the golf club ... If I handed you a £500 3 wood, would you be able to tell it was a good club? And more importantly would you be even vaguely interested?
I think the other issue and why the house analogy is flawed is that with hifi IMO the differences are much more subtle - if you take a reasonable quality mini system (Denon et al) or entry level separates system - it sounds pretty good if you're not used to anything else. Walk into a room with a £10k system, and what you still hear first is the music - the music doesn't change that much through a "hi-end" system - sure, there will be better this and better that, but in my opinion the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty early with hi-fi, even more so if you're not "trained" to listen for the changes...
I suggest MCR that it is human nature and nothing more. Many have already mentioned that an interest in music and musical structure might be a factor. I agree with Greg too that all the audiophiles I've ever met tend to be thoughtful, caring people with worldly interests. I'd also add that they probably possess a latent curiosity in how things work.
There's an even bigger question hidden in this thread as well: Define 'Quality Audio System'? It can't be done because one man or woman's quality system might not necessarily float somebody elses boat, and then there are financial constraints. Some members of AoS have plenty of money to throw at the hobby and others don't. That's cool because those of us who are not quite so financially solvent gain experience from our more well heeled members and use it to influence our own choices when buying equipment, albeit slightly more modest but new stuff, or secondhand gear. We all share a desire to experience the best sound reproduction we can. Like it or not it all boils down to the equipment in the end. It is the equipment that facilitates the delivery of a reasonable facsimile of an artists performance. Generally, non-audiophiles enjoy the performance, regardless of the equipment it is played on (I envy them). Audiophiles enjoy hearing the performance but they also analyze how it is structured. They can do this because their equipment is of sufficient quality to allow them to do so. Couple that with a certain amount of pride in the system that is delivering the performance and we are about there. :cool:
The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2011, 20:10
Trained to hear the differences is a good point ...
Take this £500 golf club
If you weren't trained in how to use it it would make you play golf any better ...
Same goes for hifi ... After a point as Alex says, difference in sound quality are meaningless to most people ... They haven't trained their ears like you have!
It's all about perspective alex!
"These cows are small [toys] those cows are far away" ;)
I think the other issue and why the house analogy is flawed is that with hifi IMO the differences are much more subtle - if you take a reasonable quality mini system (Denon et al) or entry level separates system - it sounds pretty good if you're not used to anything else. Walk into a room with a £10k system, and what you still hear first is the music - the music doesn't change that much through a "hi-end" system - sure, there will be better this and better that, but in my opinion the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty early with hi-fi, even more so if you're not "trained" to listen for the changes...
Lol - I know where you're coming from, Alex, with the laws of diminishing returns, but in that respect, playing a Denon mini system next to what I've got going on at home through my Tannoys, would simply be hilarious in its absurdity! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2011, 20:27
The point here though Marco is that to most people what like like of you, me and a good few people have spent on hifi is hilarious in it's absurdity!
We come into that £10000+ bracket ... To most people that would be completely and utterly nuts .... Especially as most people probably would care for the difference that much!
If I played jimmy-couldn't-give-a-toss-about-hifi my ushers and t-amp with my iPod one day then my main hifi the next at equal volume they wouldn't care to hear the difference ... They might well admit there was one, but they wouldn't give a shit! They would be thinking how nice a set of golf clubs/new camera/new car they could get with the money we have squandered on hifi!
Of course to us it's money well spent ... ...
Lol - I know where you're coming from, Alex, with the laws of diminishing returns, but in that respect, playing a Denon mini system next to what I've got going on at home through my Tannoys, would simply be hilarious in its absurdity! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Indeed Marco, but if you don't know any different, would you automatically be able to tell which was which? I'll get my coat! ;)
Absolutely, Hamish. The point I was illustrating was mainly about the laws of diminishing returns, rather than what you're referring to :)
Comparing how music sounded through my system, and through a Denon mini-system, would be akin to listening to Led Zeppelin playing live on your front lawn, and then through the transistor radio in your kitchen!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Which sort of illustrates the point I was making Marco. I think we are a collective lost cause :lolsign:
Maybe the masses have it right and we don't.
The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2011, 20:49
Absolutely, Hamish. The point I was illustrating was mainly about the laws of diminishing returns, rather than what you're referring to :)
Comparing how music sounded through my system, and through a Denon mini-system, would be akin to listening to Led Zeppelin playing live on your front lawn, and then through the transistor radio in your kitchen!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco! That by it's very nature is vast exaggeration! Your hifi does not sound like live music, nor a denon mini system like a kitchen radio ;)
We are off topic hear!
The question is about why people don't care about alexs hifi ... The answer is quite simply - they have other interests!
They might hear a difference but it is of little consiquence to them because their interestest lay else way!
magiccarpetride
26-07-2011, 20:51
Why is it difficult to understand that people are all different and react differently to different things?
That is not difficult to understand. What I was trying to establish is some sort of (albeit hypothetical) uniformity. True, not everyone is into knitting, nor into collecting postal stamps, nor into refurbishing vintage guitar stomp boxes from the '60s etc. But it looks to me like there might be certain areas, certain activities, that should pretty much appeal to everyone, regardless of their background, their heritage, their upbringing. In my mind, that universal gotcha! thing could be a pleasant sound.
Similarly, I think high quality images, such as a giant high resolution TV screen playing a movie such as "Baraka" (shot in 75 mm film), is pretty much guaranteed to capture anyone's eye. People find that kind of experience simply irresistible, even if they are not into cinematography or photography.
With me so far? Good. So what's puzzling to me is, why, unlike with glossy high definition images, are most people not smitten by the glossy high definition sounds? I'm not expecting anyone to be into sound per se, but isn't it a normal human capability to discern between pleasant and unpleasant sounds?
As for your analogy with the golf clubs, there is nothing even remotely near universality when it comes to some weird sport invented by some bored elite motherfuckers.
The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2011, 21:02
I understand alex ... But your asking why it isn't unerversally appreciated because you have found that it isn't ... My analogy works because it is also not universally appreciated ... You know it isn't universally appreciated because that is your experience ... Right? The answer is because people are different!
This is going round in circles ...
For the record I have meant baraka to people who have watched it on a big hd screen and got bored and turned it off half way through!
Indeed Marco, but if you don't know any different, would you automatically be able to tell which was which? I'll get my coat! ;)
Hahaha.... Well, I've had numerous non-hi-fi folk round to my house over the years, such as the type of folks being referred to on this thread, and whilst they wouldn't dream of having anything like the system I've got, they can easily tell the difference between the sound it makes and the <insert whatever shite here> they use at home!
One memorable occasion was when a chap from Scottish Power came round to read the meter, and as it's at the bottom of the stairs, down from my system upstairs, he heard the music playing. If memory serves, it was Dave Lee Roth's album 'Skyscraper'.
He looked at me and said: "Bloody hell, mate, have you got a live band up there or something?" I told him, no, I was just playing a CD on my hi-fi system. He was a young guy, so we got talking and I asked if he wanted to pop upstairs quickly for a proper listen, which he did.
I'll never forget the look on his face, as he saw all the kit I had and when he sat down and I hit play. It was a mixture between sheer astonishment, bewilderment, and utter shock! He told me that he regularly went to gigs in Manchester and that what I'd played sounded to him just like live music. I asked him what he used to play music at home, and he said that he just had an iPod. Anyway, it turns out he was a big Radiohead fan (not one of my favourite bands, but hey ho).
So he asked if he could get a CD from the car he'd been listening to and hear a couple of tracks on my system, I said sure, and he went down and got it and brought it up. If I'd known it was OK Computer (which I had anyway), he wouldn't have had to go to his car... Anyway, I put it on and spun a few tunes.
Again he just sat there mesmerised, and then told me afterwards that there was stuff on the CD he'd never even heard before, when he listens to it, and that everything sounded "really clear and alive" (his words). He'd spent about the best part of an hour listening to music and chatting. It did make me wonder how much work these guys do (!), but it was certainly an interesting exercise, and showed me that 'non-hi-fi people' can also appreciate top-notch sounds :cool:
I guess though, that not everyone would be as discerning as him.
Marco.
Marco! That by it's very nature is vast exaggeration! Your hifi does not sound like live music, nor a denon mini system like a kitchen radio...
I'm simply using extremes to illustrate the VAST difference in sound there is between a Denon mini system, and my own system.
Yes, the law of diminishing returns kicks in early with hi-fi - but not *THAT* early! ;)
Marco.
I don’t think I’ve ever invited anyone who wasn’t already equally obsessed with sound reproduction to listen to my Hi Fi :scratch:
It’s possibly why I’m not particularly interested in Hi Fi shows and “bake offs :scratch:”.
I’m not particularly interested in what others have unless I’m interested in a particular piece of equipment they have in their system and even then I want to borrow it and listen to it in my system in the comfort of my environment to assess its compatibility.
As for the assumption that we are all lovely people with a deep emotional sensitivity to both music and our fellow enthusiasts, well a brief tour of the posts here on AoS would seem to call that into question and as forums go this one is positively blindingly pleasant and friendly compared to most.
I certainly know a couple of audiophiles that really aren’t that interested in music, they like the quality of sound reproduction and as long as the recording is top quality they’ll listen to it. That’s not a problem for me as I’m interested in sound reproduction as well but I must confess I weep at the amount of money they’ve spent on a system that hardly gets used compared to the virtually constant use I give mine.
I have to say I wince at the thought of someone thinking this is a "hobby" for me - the suggestion of a hobby IMO is something that I may dip into or out of over a period of time, i.e. fishing, or camping or stamp collecting, or something I might do for a while, then give up. Music (though not necessarily "hifi") isn't even an obsession for me - it is a necessity - I couldn't even contemplate the thought of not being able to play music in some form or another - and short of food, water or air - there probably isn't anything my body or mind needs that I wouldn't give up ahead of it... Oh, I forgot sex! ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
26-07-2011, 21:50
I'm a bit bored of it really ... Not the music ... The hifi bit ... Or at least the surrounding hobby ...
Photography is much more interesting ... It provides a challenge, and constant learning curve ... Something for me to actually get better at etc
I'm happy with the hifi I have and couldn't afford anything better ... I just stick around coz I like keeping in with some of the croud here ... And arguing the toss with people like alex ... And Marco when the opportunity arises ... Nothing like an argument with a stubour bugger who won't back down eh Marco ;)
S'all good fun, shweety! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I have to say I wince at the thought of someone thinking this is a "hobby" for me - the suggestion of a hobby IMO is something that I may dip into or out of over a period of time, i.e. fishing, or camping or stamp collecting, or something I might do for a while, then give up. Music (though not necessarily "hifi") isn't even an obsession for me - it is a necessity - I couldn't even contemplate the thought of not being able to play music in some form or another - and short of food, water or air - there probably isn't anything my body or mind needs that I wouldn't give up ahead of it... Oh, I forgot sex! ;)
...err and sleep, homeostasis, & excretion!
But at least you listen to you stereo whilst having a dump :)
I have to say I wince at the thought of someone thinking this is a "hobby" for me
I could never describe it as a 'hobby', it's part of who I am. But then I think I am more into the music than the gear.
Ok, a question: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on? Not many would be my guess. "I'm into the music, not into the hardware" is an excuse we all use occasionally to justify how much time, effort and money we put into our hobby, and from the hardware aspect it is a hobby otherwise we'd be satisfied with a £500 mass-market setup. Listening to music on the other hand is another matter entirely, I do it because I enjoy music and it is part of my life, but to enjoy the music to its maximum potential I've assembled the best system I can afford, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that process too. C'mon guys, a bit of honesty please?
well I'm happy to admit that I enjoy collecting the kit and trying it out and experimenting with different combinations of equipment just as much as I enjoy collecting and listening to the music - in fact if I do not have the set -up sounding good I find that I don't listen to music at all.
I'm not contented to listen to my music on a cd boom box or a tranny radio and why should I? I grew up having to make do with Murphy mono tape decks and crappy Saisho music centre-type junk and I swore back then I would have a decent system to listen to some day and now that I have I will give it up when you prize it from my cold, dead hands.:)
Ok, a question for all of you: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on? Not many would be my guess. "I'm into the music, not into the hardware" is a common excuse we all use from occasionally to justify how much time and money we spend on our hobby, and from the hardware aspect it is a hobby otherwise we'd be satisfied with a £300 mass-market setup. Listening to music on the other hand is another matter entirely, I do it because I enjoy music and it is part of my life, but to enjoy the music to its maximum potential I've assembled the best system I can afford, and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't enjoy that process too. C'mon guys, a bit of honesty please?
Good point well made...
Once you've experienced how good the music you love, can sound on a good system, it's difficult to settle for less.
Another point that may have been covered previously, but I haven't spotted, it is that after a period of time as a hi-fi nerd (from my teens in my case) one develops a more 'trained' ear...for better or for worse ;)
Years of repeated critical system listening has left us with an ear 'trained' to look for flaws in sound reproduction, and it's something we probably all do instinctively to a lesser or greater degree. IMHO
I don't even think it's specifically to do with hearing ability, it's just the practice of using it in a certain context, as with any other sense...perhaps :)
Ok, a question: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on? Not many would be my guess. "I'm into the music, not into the hardware" is an excuse we all use occasionally to justify how much time, effort and money we put into our hobby, and from the hardware aspect it is a hobby otherwise we'd be satisfied with a £500 mass-market setup. Listening to music on the other hand is another matter entirely, I do it because I enjoy music and it is part of my life, but to enjoy the music to its maximum potential I've assembled the best system I can afford, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that process too. C'mon guys, a bit of honesty please?
I absolutely do give a damn, and that's why I'm here! But it wasn't cart before the horse - I got into hifi so I could listen to music in a better way - if I lose everything, I should still be able to afford something to play music on - and I would rather listen to something than nothing, though I wouldn't be happy about it!
Ok, a question: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on? Not many would be my guess. "I'm into the music, not into the hardware" is an excuse we all use occasionally to justify how much time, effort and money we put into our hobby, and from the hardware aspect it is a hobby otherwise we'd be satisfied with a £500 mass-market setup. Listening to music on the other hand is another matter entirely, I do it because I enjoy music and it is part of my life, but to enjoy the music to its maximum potential I've assembled the best system I can afford, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that process too. C'mon guys, a bit of honesty please?
Put it this way: if I was given the choice of keeping all my music plus something basic to play it on, versus keeping the hifi plus only a small percentage of the music, I'd go for the former. After all, I grew up listening to music on a mixture of cheap transistor radios and Dansette record players, and I don't recall sound quality being an issue.
But yes, I'd rather listen to music via a hifi than a cheap mini system.
Put it this way: if I was given the choice of keeping all my music plus something basic to play it on, versus keeping the hifi plus only a small percentage of the music, I'd go for the former. After all, I grew up listening to music on a mixture of cheap transistor radios and Dansette record players, and I don't recall sound quality being an issue.
But yes, I'd rather listen to music via a hifi than a cheap mini system.
That's a valid point too Joe ;)
Incidentally, my apologies for the evolution of my post through several quotes, but I suddenly realized that I no longer live in the 1980's and that 300 quid don't go far these days. :lolsign:
Good point well made...
Once you've experienced how good the music you love, can sound on a good system, it's difficult to settle for less.
Another point that may have been covered previously, but I haven't spotted, it is that after a period of time as a hi-fi nerd (from my teens in my case) one develops a more 'trained' ear...for better or for worse ;)
Years of repeated critical system listening has left us with an ear 'trained' to look for flaws in sound reproduction, and it's something we probably all do instinctively to a lesser or greater degree. IMHO
I don't even think it's specifically to do with hearing ability, it's just the practice of using it in a certain context, as with any other sense...perhaps :)
+1 ;)
magiccarpetride
27-07-2011, 16:28
Ok, a question: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on? Not many would be my guess. "I'm into the music, not into the hardware" is an excuse we all use occasionally to justify how much time, effort and money we put into our hobby, and from the hardware aspect it is a hobby otherwise we'd be satisfied with a £500 mass-market setup. Listening to music on the other hand is another matter entirely, I do it because I enjoy music and it is part of my life, but to enjoy the music to its maximum potential I've assembled the best system I can afford, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that process too. C'mon guys, a bit of honesty please?
Ahem... another analogy (I know, I'm insufferable): I'm into visual art, and I like to attend exhibitions and even collect good canvases. But if someone offers me to go and see an exhibition by a stunning artist, with the proviso that it will be exhibited in a stuffy little closet with only a dark blue light bulb hanging from the ceiling, I would respectfully decline.
It makes no sense whatsoever to try and enjoy a work of art if it's not exhibited properly. Same goes for enjoying a good music recording. It must be played back on a good non-distorting stereo. Does that mean i'm obsessed with gear? No, I am obsessed with music, and that's precisely why I insist that it must be presented in a decent fashion.
magiccarpetride
27-07-2011, 16:34
For the record I have meant baraka to people who have watched it on a big hd screen and got bored and turned it off half way through!
I'm not saying that "Baraka" is a good movie, only that it contains some striking imagery that never fails to captivate and mesmerize people who see it. Even if for a few brief seconds. No one is expecting them to stay for the entire length of the movie (it is rather boring, truth be told), but pretty much anyone who's seen it at my place was blown away by the glossy quality of the moving pictures. It's a good blu ray disc to have if you want to showcase the quality of your TV setup (especially if you had your TV screen calibrated properly).
The comments on what does the movie stand for vary wildly, which is also cool.
Ahem... another analogy (I know, I'm insufferable): I'm into visual art, and I like to attend exhibitions and even collect good canvases. But if someone offers me to go and see an exhibition by a stunning artist, with the proviso that it will be exhibited in a stuffy little closet with only a dark blue light bulb hanging from the ceiling, I would respectfully decline.
It makes no sense whatsoever to try and enjoy a work of art if it's not exhibited properly. Same goes for enjoying a good music recording. It must be played back on a good non-distorting stereo. Does that mean i'm obsessed with gear? No, I am obsessed with music, and that's precisely why I insist that it must be presented in a decent fashion.
I'm not suggesting we are obsessed with our gear (although there are always exceptions :lol:), I'm suggesting that the gear is a means to an end, that end being the accurate reproduction of music. Ergo, accurate music reproduction and quality hifi gear are of equal importance to an audiophile.
I think it should also be said that it isn't obscene to be proud of one's hifi system, especially one that has been assembled with much care and consideration over a period of time. For instance, it has taken me over a year to get where I am with my system with many minor, and some major tweeks over that period. I still have a ways to go but the results have been worthwhile since the improvement is tangible over that of my previous equipment. Am I proud of it? You betcha!!! ;)
magiccarpetride
27-07-2011, 17:53
I'm not suggesting we are obsessed with our gear (although there are always exceptions :lol:), I'm suggesting that the gear is a means to an end, that end being the accurate reproduction of music. Ergo, accurate music reproduction and quality hifi gear are of equal importance to an audiophile.
I think it should also be said that it isn't obscene to be proud of one's hifi system, especially one that has been assembled with much care and consideration over a period of time. For instance, it has taken me over a year to get where I am with my system with many minor, and some major tweeks over that period. I still have a ways to go but the results have been worthwhile since the improvement is tangible over that of my previous equipment. Am I proud of it? You betcha!!! ;)
A friend of mine, whom I've recently converted to audiophilia, managed to build a decent audio system by simply abstaining from going to watch the hockey games for the season. Small sacrifice bought him a lifetime of endless pleasure. Could that sacrifice be considered obscene by anyone's standards? We're talking a few lousy hockey games (which are probably rigged anyway, if I'm allowing my cynical side to speak for a moment...)
I’m not picking on your post as such honest Dave ;):eyebrows:
“I'm suggesting that the gear is a means to an end, that end being the accurate reproduction of music.”
Hmm. What you may get is the accurate reproduction of a recording of people playing music, if your lucky, or not, depending on the performers competence, recording techniques etc etc.
Having heard a number of bands playing in studios I’m eternally thankful the ghastly racket was nothing like the final mix.
Given the recording engineers propensity for adding his/her little, and sometimes considerable interpretation of how he/she wants the final product to sound, it may be completely unrepresentative of what was played at the studio; hopefully, considering above.
Then of course you’ve got the knotty task of trying to decide what that recording should sound like. Is it what the engineer hears on his near field active monitors or what he hears on his headphones perhaps? Maybe he/she listened to the final mix on his/her mp3 player driving home and decided on the final overall sound then.
So, how do we, the final user decide how a particular track is meant to sound?
We all acknowledge it seems everyone’s Hi Fi sounds different. Which one is right?
Is it what you hear through your kit or what Marco hears through his, maybe its what the guy with the mp3 player hears.
Its completely subjective and accurate doesn’t enter into it; pleasant maybe , musical possibly, what you prefer definitely, but accurate reproduction of music as in the stuff played by musicians? I rather think not.
Okay, seemingly a pedantic point but bearing this in mind when choosing Hi Fi and before entering into which is best debates could make some of us look a lot less silly.
magiccarpetride
27-07-2011, 18:48
Maybe he/she listened to the final mix on his/her mp3 player driving home and decided on the final overall sound then.
I'm trying to imagine George Martin driving home from the Sgt. Pepper's mixdown sessions listening to his mp3 player...
My system is under £500.:)
[...]
So I'm now starting to form an opinion that maybe this hobby of ours takes a special kind of person. Thoughts?
Okay, again:
(A most readable thread, btw :) )
A direct answer: yes, it does take a special kind of person. It takes a music-lover with (in most cases) a special interest in sound quality as well ... and of course he/she is willing to pay for that.
Among our guests, all not being audiophiles themselves, some are simply more interested in sound quality then others. Or more or less sensitive, maybe! Hence the different reactions.
Isn't that all?
Regards,
Thur.
magiccarpetride
27-07-2011, 19:55
Okay, again:
(A most readable thread, btw :) )
A direct answer: yes, it does take a special kind of person. It takes a music-lover with (in most cases) a special interest in sound quality as well ... and of course he/she is willing to pay for that.
Among our guests, all not being audiophiles themselves, some are simply more interested in sound quality then others. Or more or less sensitive, maybe! Hence the different reactions.
Isn't that all?
Regards,
Thur.
Question: how can someone be a music lover and not be interested in sound quality? To me it's like saying that someone is a food aficionado who is not really interested in the cleanliness of the plate he is eating off. So this passionate foody may be eating a face-melting lasagna off the plate that contains leftover blobs of whipped cream mixed with Frenchies mustard, and not give a shit about that? I find it difficult to believe...
how can someone be a music lover and not be interested in sound quality?
Why not - I must admit I find it confusing that you couldn't accept that? :scratch:
I have a female friend who used to date a professional bass player and she has been into music her whole life (as he has). They used to listen to mp3's through their TV a lot of the time, or via the speakers on her MacBook. It was the content more than the sound quality that they listened too, but they are both most definitely music lovers, her especially.
Question: how can someone be a music lover and not be interested in sound quality? [...] I find it difficult to believe...
That may be ... hard to believe, that is.
Still, I think quite some members have tried to state more or less the same in the above thread. There are enough examples of music-lovers who are not really interested in sound quality. They can hear and appreciate it, but they do not need it to enjoy their music.
There are of course many many differences and phases and whatnot, but (taking myself as an example) here are some thoughts:
- most youngsters (like I once was and my son is and many others who start enjoying and listening music when they are about 15/16 years old) listen to crappy quality (being typical 70's students audio gear or todays iPods) but enjoy their music deeply;
- I really enjoy any classical live concert, partly because of the beauty of the sound ... but ... I can evenly enjoy any (say Springsteen) concert, despite of the disastrous sound quality (really hurting ones ears)
- I start listening to complex new music by letting it float through my head in my car. Once used to it, I start listening through my Maggies. That does give it this extra sound quality dimension. But once knowing the music, I can play it in my car, through my pc system or the Maggies. Of course it sounds great on the Maggies (that's why I own them!) but it's not necessary.
That's my point: you do not need great sound quality to enjoy music. There are those lucky buggers who can hear and enjoy by only reading the music from the sheets.
Well, just my thoughts.
Regards,
Thur.
Its completely subjective and accurate doesn’t enter into it; pleasant maybe , musical possibly, what you prefer definitely, but accurate reproduction of music as in the stuff played by musicians? I rather think not.
.
that's pretty much how I see it, one man or woman's nirvana can be another man or woman's finger nails on the blackboard, I still prefer live music being played over a hifi playing music no matter what the music being played is
. . . I still prefer live music being played over a hifi playing music no matter what the music being played is
+ 1 me too :)
WOStantonCS100
27-07-2011, 22:01
Ok, a question: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on?
I first experienced and grew to love pop, funk and r&b as played on portable record players or heard on AM radio. (Classical, jazz and classic rock my dad played on the hifi.) I love/d the music, the melodies, the harmonies. It's just that the "acoustic power" and "detail of performance" were missing. I knew that then; but, such was life. To this day though, despite my gear, if the only way I can obtain a piece of music I truly enjoy is via low bitrate .mp3, a low bitrate .mp3 it is. The hope is always there that I'll be able to obtain the recordings in higher fidelity; however, I will love it no less and certainly won't pass it up. I'll echo previous answers and say, if I only had a BSR record changer, I'd use it. I'd tweak the veruca salt out of it; but, I'd use it.
Great examples of this are Charlie Parker Bird at St. Nick's and Charlie Parker Bird on 52nd Street. All the guy had at the club to record the performance with was a little cassette recorder; but, he knew what he was capturing was inspired. I'm glad that, in the face of not having a reel to reel deck and mics, he didn't throw up his hands and say, "the hell with it."
magiccarpetride
27-07-2011, 22:13
That's my point: you do not need great sound quality to enjoy music.
True. That wasn't my question. It's not that you need great sound quality in order to enjoy music. I don't think you do -- you can enjoy music even on a crappy transistor radio. My point is: how can a music lover not be interested in good sound quality?
Going back to my example with food: if I'm really hungry, then yes I'll that lasagna even if it's all meshed with the whipped cream and the mustard and the melted ice cream cake on top. But if I had a choice, I'd much rather eat it off the clean plate.
With me so far? So the same thing is with music -- even though you don't need to have good sound quality in order to enjoy music, if you're a true music lover you should naturally PREFER to listen to it on a high quality system.
Makes sense?
Maybe 'accurate' was a bad choice of word on my part, I know what I mean but I am having difficulty putting it into words. All I can say is that my music collection played on my system can send shivers down my spine, in a good way that is... :lol:
My musical tastes have changed drastically over the years and now I tend to hunt for albums containing quality musicianship that are well produced regardless of genre to a degree. Earlier this year I discovered the band Elbow via YouTube. Even when listening through my laptop speakers their huge talent and the high production value of their stuff was readily apparent when played through my laptop speakers (it helps that my HP lappy has an excellent inbuilt sound system which includes a tiny sub-woofer). The bands material really appealed to me so I purchased all their albums and my God they sound good. I get a thrill from discovering new bands and material.
Live music is where it's at ultimately but from a personal perspective, having a disability (work related back injury as well as circulatory problems) precludes me from attending live performances as often as I'd like, so my system is my window on the music world. :cool:
This is a personal view of course and others will likely have very different reasons for enjoying music. ;)
WOStantonCS100
27-07-2011, 22:44
...even though you don't need to have good sound quality in order to enjoy music, if you're a true music lover you should naturally PREFER to listen to it on a high quality system.
Makes sense?
Yes, it makes sense. I just don't think all folks are wired up the same. Well, I guess that's mastery of the obvious! :lol:
"We gravitate toward that which we secretly love most." Even though "they" may be true music lovers, they have to love it most. Otherwise, resources will naturally go toward the other things that are higher on the list, whether that be a boat, vacationing, fine art, cuisine... whatever it is that, in actuality, is of higher importance. That is all well and good to me. What grates on my nerves is when folks try to cover for this fact by saying "it's too bulky" or "it's too expensive"... when they have a yacht in the backyard.
[...]
With me so far?
[...]
I am with you on the Lasagna, that's for sure :)
Otherwise, I don't know. I guess I know what you mean, but still: of course sound and sound quality is a part of the music, and certainly very important for most of us. But music is mathematics: notes, keys, time, silences. It is a system! That is why trained people can hear, really hearing by imagining, music only by reading the sheets, as I said before.
Another analogy, next to your haute cuisine example: a story doesn't get any better when printed as an expensive hard-cover edition, as opposed to the cheap paperback. It is still the same story. (Hmm, don't know if this is a good one!)
You do make sense! Only, I am blessed with quite a few true music lovers among my friends and family who do know good sound (the classical concert example) but who are perfectly happy with their all-in-one's. Some of them are classical trained musicians. They explained the above to me. Do I understand? Yes and No!
Well, I do not want to be right. Just my thoughts. Would make a great and lively conversation when we should meet, I guess.
Kind regards,
Thur.
I have a tatty old car but love driving.
I guess it's the same as anyone with a cheap hifi.
magiccarpetride
28-07-2011, 16:48
Only, I am blessed with quite a few true music lovers among my friends and family who do know good sound (the classical concert example) but who are perfectly happy with their all-in-one's. Some of them are classical trained musicians. They explained the above to me. Do I understand? Yes and No!
I don't. I am a musician and I can read music score sheets. While reading, I can hear music playing in my head. I hear all the changes in pitch and I feel the rhythmic pulse and I can also hear timbral qualities of various instruments etc.
Still, that experience pales when compared to the experience of listening to that exact sheet of music getting INTERPRETED by great musicians.
Not only that, but there are favorite pieces of music that I keep getting back to over and over, and I have dozens of different interpretations of the same sheet of music scattered on various albums. Each interpretation sounds completely different, which is what gives it special charm. Different conductors, different musicians, even the same conductors and the same musicians playing the same piece of music at different times, sound completely different.
No one in the world can get that much variety by simply reading music off a piece of paper! You need a good stereo system to be able to fully appreciate that wealth of cultural artifacts.
As I got older my musical tastes differs from what I was listening in the 80's.
Redicovering the joy of audiophilia after a good few years absent from dabbling in DVD/cinema set up. It's good to be back and a lot to catch up.:)
[...]
Each interpretation sounds completely different, which is what gives it special charm. Different conductors, different musicians, even the same conductors and the same musicians playing the same piece of music at different times, sound completely different.
[...]
I am definitely with you on this as well :)
As long as we do appreciate music deeply. Whatever it takes!
Kind regards,
Thur.
magiccarpetride
28-07-2011, 21:04
As long as we do appreciate music deeply. Whatever it takes!
Why shouldn't we? (I can't envision what would it take to stop appreciating music:scratch:)
Why shouldn't we? (I can't envision what would it take to stop appreciating music:scratch:)
This subject has come forth in several topics.
I have noticed your statement somewhere before: "a better audio system makes the music sound better". I (again) totally agree.
My points are: (1) the fact that it sounds better doesn't make the music, it's quality, in itself any better ... and (2) for some people better sound quality improves their listening sensation. True. So we are a minority of lucky bastards. That's it.
I do not think we come any closer here!
So yes, you are right again. It was just my attempt to say "Over and Out" in this thread :)
Kind regards,
Thur.
bogle111
28-07-2011, 21:49
You need a good stereo system to be able to fully appreciate that wealth of cultural artifacts.
Did people enjoy reproduced music less when they only had 78s?
Do people enjoy music less when they have a cheap system?
Do people that are half deaf that can afford the best enjoy music less?
Do people enjoy music more because they have the latest Harikarikasugi with a stylus pollished by midgets using angels' water in a cave some where in Tibet?
Hifi to some creates an enjoyable atmosphere, whilst to others they are too busy listening to ways of improving it, to be getting the best from it.
Having heard many live performances both Pop and Classical, I have been appalled at some of the acoustics or the mixing desk.
I have sold systems to people who are virtually deaf (big Tannoys etc.), pop stars, and musicians. I have sold people with a music centre up to Meridian active systems in one step. I have always advised the rule of
When you can't hear a difference it is time to stop and buy that one.
Where budget is concerned, find the best in that budget and enjoy it.
If Hifi is a hobby, no matter what you buy, we'll see you back again for something else, before it is cold.
Some folks are just not interested enough to chase rainbows, but would rather enjoy the now.
A Hifi/music enthusiast possibly loves his music & equipment more than the average Joe, yet ultimately loves it less because he is an enthusiast - Catch 22, as already said. Now tell me who is the lucky Joe IMHO it is the guy with an amasing collection of music, not the latest or best equipment is usually the greatest music lover.
I've got to be honest, I'm not really sure what this thread is about anymore :scratch:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/chasing-tail.gif
(and I totally agree with your last post Peter)
magiccarpetride
28-07-2011, 22:24
Did people enjoy reproduced music less when they only had 78s?
Do people enjoy music less when they have a cheap system?
Do people that are half deaf that can afford the best enjoy music less?
Do people enjoy music more because they have the latest Harikarikasugi with a stylus pollished by midgets using angels' water in a cave some where in Tibet
I have no answer to these questions. All I can tell you is that I am definitely enjoying reproduced music much more now than I was able to a year ago. Why? Because I have a better sounding system now. The math is very simple, folks: more resolving system with less distortion equals more enjoyment in music listening.
I've always enjoyed listening to music, ever since I can remember. But with each passing year, as I am able to afford better components, I'm enjoying music much more. I've never been so excited when listening to the Beatles than I am right now, because it is only very recently, with the latest upgrades to my stereo, that I started hearing all these subtle details that make the Beatles unassailable in the world of recorded music. Some sort of magic confluence/serendipity/synchronicity was happening during those years in Abbey Road studios, while they were recording, and now it shines through on sufficiently resolving systems. Unfortunately you won't be able to hear much of those subtle details on your average hi fi (as I wasn't able to hear it on my older stereos), which is a big loss, as far as I'm concerned.
Werner Berghofer
29-07-2011, 06:12
The math is very simple, folks: more resolving system with less distortion equals more enjoyment in music listening.
I seriously doubt that passion for music is the simple result of a mathematic expression.
Werner.
magiccarpetride
29-07-2011, 17:24
I seriously doubt that passion for music is the simple result of a mathematic expression.
Werner.
Me too. I don't even know what is passion for music the result of? Can you enlighten us?
Werner Berghofer
29-07-2011, 17:36
Can you enlighten us?
Unfortunately not, since I prefer to listen to music instead.
Werner.
magiccarpetride
29-07-2011, 18:42
Unfortunately not, since I prefer to listen to music instead.
Werner.
Aw man, you're so superior. Are you sure you're not a member of some higher race or something? When I grow up, I'd like to be able to prefer to listen to music instead too.
(in passing, I'm now only 24 posts away from reaching the 1,000 post milestone! Please don't ban me from the forum just yet)
Stratmangler
29-07-2011, 18:44
Aw man, you're so superior. Are you sure you're not a member of some higher race or something? When I grow up, I'd like to be able to prefer to listen to music instead too.
(in passing, I'm now only 25 posts away from reaching the 1,000 post milestone! Please don't ban me from the forum just yet)
Grow up then :)
Ali Tait
29-07-2011, 19:13
The appreciation of music is hard-wired into us. According to an article I came across recently, babies in the womb can respond to the beats in music as early as 4 months.
I think that I would compare listening to music to a drug addiction, although to a drug that has positive rather than negative effects on us over the long term.
Ever been on holiday abroad for a week or too, no chance to listen to music? Then when you get back one of the first things you want to do is fire up the stereo? Part of you has really missed that daily immersion in music even though you have had a fantastic time without it. The effects of listening to and enjoying music on the higher functioning parts of the brain/mind are not to be underestimated.
In my experience, women definitely don't seem to care about the differences - I won't say they don't notice, but for some reason, both ex and current wife as well as other long-term girlfriends and female friends just say "that's nice dear" and appear not to give a monkey's.
Pretty much my experience, too. Only a secretary of mine many years ago was truly into sound quality and appreciated a hi-fi system, having one of her own. Others have either not cared less or think I'm on crack. My partner Ruth does appreciate it but quickly tires of listening as a sole activity - she prefers to be doing the ironing :steam:
It's not just women, though. Some of my mates don't care about sound quality, either.
I have to say I wince at the thought of someone thinking this is a "hobby" for me - the suggestion of a hobby IMO is something that I may dip into or out of over a period of time, i.e. fishing, or camping or stamp collecting, or something I might do for a while, then give up. Music (though not necessarily "hifi") isn't even an obsession for me - it is a necessity - I couldn't even contemplate the thought of not being able to play music in some form or another - and short of food, water or air - there probably isn't anything my body or mind needs that I wouldn't give up ahead of it... Oh, I forgot sex! ;)
Right-on, Alex. Music for me is a passion, not a hobby :)
Ok, a question: How many of you are so into the music you wouldn't give a damn what you heard it on?
No, I can't say that. There's plenty of music out there that is appalling. There is much more that has a message to give or an emotion to impart, however.
No, I can't say that. There's plenty of music out there that is appalling. There is much more that has a message to give or an emotion to impart, however.
I think you missed my point but I agree with your statement non-the-less ;)
magiccarpetride
02-08-2011, 16:05
Grow up then :)
Easier said than done.
dave2010
02-08-2011, 20:36
Easier said than done.
Curious thread this. I know people who'd rather go to see a play than go to a concert. Some people might even prefer cricket!
Quite a lot of people who like music play or sing, or have done at some time. That might make a difference.
I'd rather listen to music live on the whole, but if that's not possible, I'd prefer to listen on good equipment' or at the very least avoid bad kit.
However, I'd prefer to hear a very good performance of something interesting on merely OK kit rather than a boring one of a dull piece on brilliant kit any day.
People who can read music often claim that it doesn't really matter that much, since they can fill in bits from the score - though I reckon you have to be a good music reader to do that.
There are so many aspects to this, but some of us still like to hear good equipment.
WOStantonCS100
02-08-2011, 22:53
I think that I would compare listening to music to a drug addiction,
I've always said, if I wasn't so into music, I would make a great drug addict!
although to a drug that has positive rather than negative effects on us over the long term.
Hmmmm...
Ever had a marathon listening sessions with The Smiths? If you can get through that without getting so depressed you want to jump off a cliff afterwards... :lol:
Keep in mind, I love The Smiths (despite Morrissey's apparent lack of tact, at times); have all their albums. Johnny Marr plays some of the most inspired rhythm guitar I've ever heard.
My normal reaction upon hearing a Smiths song: "EEEEEEK, RUNAWAY!!!!! :laugh:
Thing Fish
03-08-2011, 03:08
I have a half decent system but rarely listen to it these days. Since traveling around the world, things don't seem the same. Sometimes I feel like selling the whole lot and buying another ticket to somewhere exotic.
The little world I used to exist in was blown apart by seeing other places. Material objects seem trivial now. When I came back after nearly 5 years I threw the entire contents of my house out. Every knife, fork, spoon, telly, sofa, bed...etc All except my stereo for some reason? I had a life moment and it was refreshing and scary at the same time.
Travel is simply amazing, once you return nothing is the same again. I recommend it as a cure for serious audiophiles everywhere. It puts things into perspective...:)
It's a funny thing, Dave. I love travelling, but I also love returning home afterwards. Something about Englishmen and their castles. Also, despite the many countries that I've visited, there is only one other that I would countenance living in, and that opportunity has now passed. Our governments may have done their best to destroy our country, but it's still beautiful in places.
magiccarpetride
03-08-2011, 16:45
Travel is simply amazing, once you return nothing is the same again. I recommend it as a cure for serious audiophiles everywhere. It puts things into perspective...:)
One could argue with equal force that traveling puts things into a very distorted perspective.
One could argue with equal force that traveling puts things into a very distorted perspective.
I disagree 100% with that I'm afraid, how can travel and gaining a deeper understanding of how the world works give you a more distorted perspective :scratch:. Your statement makes no sense to me at all. Westerners have a very privileged lifestyle and we are in a minority on a global scale. The majority of people in the world live in poverty or close to it, just working or fighting to source enough food/water in order to stay alive.
Even if you can't or won't travel, everyone in the West should be forced to watch Bakara at school, IMO. Truly makes you appreciate how lucky we are, through an accident of birth, a twist of fate, or some Great Plan - who knows - but if you don't watch it and feel blessed, then I think there is something amiss...
Mind you, I know Alex (MagicCarpetRide) has mentioned it, and apart from the stunning visuals, doesn't seem to have made much impact on him! ;)
Like Tim, I'm struggling to understand your point, Alex?
magiccarpetride
03-08-2011, 22:12
Even if you can't or won't travel, everyone in the West should be forced to watch Bakara at school, IMO. Truly makes you appreciate how lucky we are, through an accident of birth, a twist of fate, or some Great Plan - who knows - but if you don't watch it and feel blessed, then I think there is something amiss...
Mind you, I know Alex (MagicCarpetRide) has mentioned it, and apart from the stunning visuals, doesn't seem to have made much impact on him! ;)
Like Tim, I'm struggling to understand your point, Alex?
Just saying, one should perhaps heed the tried and tested old adage: "First clean up in front of your own house."
I know a lot of do-gooders who feel oh-so-special because they've traveled to some remote part of the globe and got acquainted, face-to-face, with some other cultures etc., and felt the urge to help and what not, but then these same special and enlightened people don't give a damn about terrible things that are happening in front of their very houses. Familiarity breeds contempt, I suppose...
I really don't know what to say to that post, Alex... But to my knowledge, there have not been 29,000 child deaths due to famin in the last 90 days in Vancouver, and I'm not aware that 12 million people are close to starving in Canada....
There's a big place beginning with "A" (hint: not your neighbours) where all this and more is happening (the 29,000 child deaths is in the worst part of the worst affected country) and I for one hope the "do-gooders" do good and help these poor people.
I certainly agree with your "distorted perspective" comment from your earlier post now, though perhaps not in the way you intended.
Thing Fish
03-08-2011, 23:19
I know a lot of do-gooders who feel oh-so-special because they've traveled to some remote part of the globe and got acquainted, face-to-face, with some other cultures etc., and felt the urge to help and what not, but then these same special and enlightened people don't give a damn about terrible things that are happening in front of their very houses. Familiarity breeds contempt, I suppose...
Where did all this hate come from? methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Hey magiccarpetride, are you experiencing a nasty pain in all the diodes down your right side? :lolsign:
Vinyleyes
04-08-2011, 06:04
I have a half decent system but rarely listen to it these days. Since traveling around the world, things don't seem the same. Sometimes I feel like selling the whole lot and buying another ticket to somewhere exotic.
The little world I used to exist in was blown apart by seeing other places. Material objects seem trivial now. When I came back after nearly 5 years I threw the entire contents of my house out. Every knife, fork, spoon, telly, sofa, bed...etc All except my stereo for some reason? I had a life moment and it was refreshing and scary at the same time.
Travel is simply amazing, once you return nothing is the same again. I recommend it as a cure for serious audiophiles everywhere. It puts things into perspective...:)
I know exactly what you mean about material objects losing their hold on oneself ... I no longer keep anything I do not use .. but even after long periods of travel I still love to walk on the moors and come home and listen to my hifi and plug in my guitar.
I realised that one does not have to give up one's possessions .. as long as one realises and releases the hold that they can have upon oneself.
Have you been to South America ... if it is next up for you then I recemmend Iquitos in Peru .... :cool:
I recemmend Iquitos in Peru .... :cool:
I have always wanted to go to Peru. Still one of my life's ambitions.
I have always wanted to go to Peru. Still one of my life's ambitions.
You must do it Martin, especially the Inca Trail - the sight of Machu Picchu is breathtaking and the most wonderful thing I have ever seen. I reckon you would love Nazca too ;)
I hope to walk the trail again before I'm 60.
Thing Fish
04-08-2011, 17:51
If I travel again it will be to Japan or India. The last two places I really want to visit before my demise.
I don't mean hotel type holidays either. It would have to be a solo 6 month trip across India by train or around Japan by whale. I have to make it a real adventure or it becomes boring...:)
Vinyleyes
04-08-2011, 18:04
On my last trip to Peru I must have met at least 20 people who were travelling for at least 6 months ... on very limited budgets ... At least half had done India already ... but all of them said they were knocked out by Peru ... so was I ... I am retiring over there and right now am renovating an old house on some land in a beautiful valley ... I just have to figure hiow to get my Tannoys and vinyl over there ... :lolsign:
magiccarpetride
04-08-2011, 18:06
I really don't know what to say to that post, Alex... But to my knowledge, there have not been 29,000 child deaths due to famin in the last 90 days in Vancouver, and I'm not aware that 12 million people are close to starving in Canada....
There's a big place beginning with "A" (hint: not your neighbours) where all this and more is happening (the 29,000 child deaths is in the worst part of the worst affected country) and I for one hope the "do-gooders" do good and help these poor people.
I certainly agree with your "distorted perspective" comment from your earlier post now, though perhaps not in the way you intended.
Oh, without a doubt the Somalia tragedy is insanely painful. And we must all help. But we also must stop and think how is it that such rich continent (Africa) is so messed up? Something to do with white do-gooders who have been raping and pillaging that place for centuries? No, I must be imagining things... The Africans must have actually done it to themselves -- or they were asking for it?
Look at it this way: how would you feel if one fine sunny day a group of black Africans would arrive in your Sunny Suffolk, UK, coral your children, bring them into some school, and start teaching them all the African stories and legends and songs and dances, without even consulting with you? You'd think such do-googers are cool, 'cause they're enriching your children's lives? That's exactly how they feel when white colonizers barge into their homes and forcefully recruit their children into some bullshit Christiandom.
magiccarpetride
04-08-2011, 18:27
1000 - 18 posts
What, you think I'll quit once I reach my 1000th post? You wish!
Feck!
I knew my white missionary ancestors might be responsible for a lot of problems in the world but I didn’t have them down for global weather patterns, tribal politics, lack of infra structure investment and widespread corruption in the African continent :eek:
Man, there’s a lot of stuff they don’t teach us over here :doh:
Phew, jest checked my family tree an apparently they all buggered off to the Americas so I’m good :)
Oh, without a doubt the Somalia tragedy is insanely painful. And we must all help. But we also must stop and think how is it that such rich continent (Africa) is so messed up? Something to do with white do-gooders who have been raping and pillaging that place for centuries? No, I must be imagining things... The Africans must have actually done it to themselves -- or they were asking for it?
Look at it this way: how would you feel if one fine sunny day a group of black Africans would arrive in your Sunny Suffolk, UK, coral your children, bring them into some school, and start teaching them all the African stories and legends and songs and dances, without even consulting with you? You'd think such do-googers are cool, 'cause they're enriching your children's lives? That's exactly how they feel when white colonizers barge into their homes and forcefully recruit their children into some bullshit Christiandom.
A little bit too political, Alex, me thinks for the hi-fi section of the forum... Let leave that stuff for another day, mate - ta! ;)
Marco.
What, you think I'll quit once I reach my 1000th post? You wish!
Alex you have a poor perception of others. To me anyone who makes a "thing" about 1000 post is here for different reasons to me. I dont care if you stay or go. You provide a smile if your here.The man who thought the Stones were for dullards.
Love your music Alex.
Meanwhile, back in the real world I is mostly listening to wonderful music :cool:
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