Quad II vs Croft Series 7

[Tim]

:confused:

[hifi_dave]

Quad II - warm, mellow, low o/p, great looks, unlikely to lose their value.

Series 7 - warm, solid, dynamic, punchy bass, higher o/p, runs cooler.

[Tim]

Lol, thanks David - I did put a post in there, but then decided against it and found I couldn't delete it, so ended up confused, which is about normal really ;)

[DSJR]

Having spent many hours with a Series 7 at Daves, and owning and using Crofted II's daily at present, I'd be more critical (bloody typical, the Thing from Tring strikes again :lol:)

To me, the Quads are glorious, but coloured, the bass and treble being largely reticent, all one's attention going to the admittedly lovely midrange (just right for my Spendors). Objectivists would point you to a well fettled Quad 707 or early 909 to show you the way - the 606 series really is good as ss amps go and the design is reliable if regularly maintained.

The Series 7 in comparison is beyond compare in this company, frankly - and so it bloomin' should be. Glenns design seems to combine the very best of valve and solid state - LOADS of atmosphere, tighter bass without becoming mechanical as some high-damping ss amps can do and with decent clear treble extension.

To get anything that I would personally call better, you MUST look at the current Albarry power amps, which take evrything to a higher plane in my opinion :)

[Tim]

Thanks guys, very helpful information as always, especially as I deleted the original post! Prompted really by my visit due later today to assess a pair of Quad II's. But I just started to think would investing a not insignificant amount of money in something over 40 years old be a good idea, when I can buy some of Glenn's current offerings for around the same money. Especially when you consider I'm probably going to send them to Glenn to check over and service anyway :scratch: I always get apprehensive when I am about to spend large amounts of cash (large for me anyway). But I guess the Quad II's are a safe bet and I'm unlikely to lose anything on the investment, should I decide to sell them again.

The Albarry's however do entice, especially as I like Neil's work anyway, but with very limited experience ..... so many choices, so little time and so little money.

[Covenant]

I have had a series 7 for a few months now and really love it. Its used directly into a Standac as a preamp. Although I am tempted by a Croft preamp, I wonder if it just adds some flavour rather than makes a significant improvement?
Also wondering if any one has modded the series 7-a few choice capacitors perhaps?

[DSJR]

A difficult one to answer Jerry. Glenn in his current designs anyway, seems to get a great performance WITHOUT the necessity of fancy "better" boutique components. Doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to tidy it up further, just that it's not essential.

My current opinion is that most preamps are the spawn of the devil, so much do they have the potential to screw things up. There's a sub £1K cambridge one out there which is terrifying in its complexity. I bet it's been "designed" to within an inch of its life to get any decent sonics at all :) Admittedly, a lot of the space appears to be the switching relays, but still...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/0b9a9396.jpg

A Micro 25 in comparison (Thanks Walrus) -

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/croft_25.jpg

...and my AVI preamp, the line buffer easy to see after the volume control, the phono stage in it's own screened box to the left of the relay bank and the power supply again in a screened box on the right.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/AVIPre1.jpg

[The Black Adder]

My Crofted II's sound utterly sublime too. Over 40 years old granted but Glenn has basically re-built them to a much higher spec and using KT88's.

Lot's have been said about the transformers not being able to cope but people must understand that if they are done properly they will be fine. Concordant and Croft are the ones to go for.

I'm so surprised on how these babies sound and they are runnning modern Gold Lion KT88's so for more punch my next investment is some GEC's but they cost a bomb...

[Marco]

Hi Joe,

You should also consider the new 'Tung-Sol' KT120s. Basically, they piss all over ANY KT88, including the GECs!

When we have our sesh, I'll bring some down (along with GEC KT88s) and you can hear the results for yourself :cool:

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

I have had a series 7 for a few months now and really love it. Its used directly into a Standac as a preamp. Although I am tempted by a Croft preamp, I wonder if it just adds some flavour rather than makes a significant improvement?
Also wondering if any one has modded the series 7-a few choice capacitors perhaps?

I have but a lowly NAD integrated, and, because the pre section can be separated from the power section, ran it with my Caiman as pre.

I eventually got around to reusing the active preamp section again, and regained a huge amount of musical drive and involvement, which was lacking with the Caiman straight into the power stage.

I reckon that the Croft preamp will bring a significant contibution to the table.

[Marco]

+1

I've yet to hear a quality active preamp not be a HUGE upgrade over running in 'direct' mode :)

Marco.

[jandl100]

I've not heard a Crofted/modded Quad II pair, but I was lucky enough to do a 2 week swap for a pair of serviced and fettled II's (the other guy got my lovely Leak Stereo 20 in exchange :)).

Oh my gosh - that Quad II midrange. As has been said - utterly gorgeous, the most tonally opulent sound I have ever heard. Yummy.

But oh dear - for Pipe & Slippers listeners only. Like watching paint dry, imho. :doh:. Any get up and go and musical pizzaz has long since got up and gone.
A truly tedious listen after the first couple of days basking in that lovely midrange. Fine for P&S folks, but others should be wary of being overly-enamoured by their strengths and after a while wondering where the dynamic interest of the music has gone.

Crofts, ime, have a much more lively and engaging manner. Although I've not heard the Series 7.

Just my opinion, but based on experience. YMMV. :)

[Marco]

I completely concur, Jerry (again, based on experience).

However, knowing Glenn, and his equipment design sonic proclivities, I suspect that any of his modded Quads would've had that dreadful 'pipe & slipperiness' suitably sucked out of them!! ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yup, I'm sure that's right, Marco.

I'd love to hear that wonderful Quad II midband richness matched up with some Crofty speed, transparency and dynamic lucidity. :) Something like a more opulent Leak Stereo 20 would do nicely.

[anthonyTD]

Hi Joe,

You should also consider the new 'Tung-Sol' KT120s. Basically, they piss all over ANY KT88, including the GECs!


When we have our sesh, I'll bring some down (along with GEC KT88s) and you can hear the results for yourself :cool:

Marco.
hi Marco,
that would not be a fair contest with your amp in the current set up as it will now run the original GEC's to death,:eyebrows: however, you know that i am a real fan of the KT120's and agree that they are a fabulous alternative if one cannot stretch to the ever increasing price of the original GEC's.
Anthony,TD...

[DSJR]

Yup, I'm sure that's right, Marco.

I'd love to hear that wonderful Quad II midband richness matched up with some Crofty speed, transparency and dynamic lucidity. :) Something like a more opulent Leak Stereo 20 would do nicely.


Hi jerry,

It does appear that Glenn has done different things to II's over the years and mine are admittedly early re-builds from around twenty years ago.. It's difficult for me to properly compare stock and rebuilt because the old 'uns are often slugged by the dreadfully veiled preamp they came with. I wouldn't say mine are totally "pipe and slippers," but the last thing my particular speakers need is extra bass and treble "power" and "clarity" - there's more than enough as it is ;)

[Marco]

Hi Anthony,


hi Marco,
that would not be a fair contest with your amp in the current set up as it will now run the original GEC's to death,:eyebrows:

Yup, but what I meant was Joe doing the comparison between KT120s and KT88s, using his Quads, not the Copper amp :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi jerry,

It does appear that Glenn has done different things to II's over the years and mine are admittedly early re-builds from around twenty years ago.. It's difficult for me to properly compare stock and rebuilt because the old 'uns are often slugged by the dreadfully veiled preamp they came with. I wouldn't say mine are totally "pipe and slippers," but the last thing my particular speakers need is extra bass and treble "power" and "clarity" - there's more than enough as it is ;)

Increased transparency (reduction of distortion/coloration), Dave, should always result in an audible upgrade in any well-sorted system! ;)

Marco.

[worrasf]

Yup, but what I meant was Joe doing the comparison between KT120s and KT88s, using his Quads, not the Copper amp :)

Marco.

Hi Marco,
Not tried the KT120's - I am using NOS GE 6550A's in my Croft S4s (got a spare set to boot) - any thoughts on the KT120's in here?

Steve

[Marco]

Hi Stephen,

In many cases, it's simply a direct swap, but it depends on whether the power supplies (transformers) in your amps are up to dealing with the extra electrical demands of the (more powerful) KT-120.

Anthony (or Glenn) will be able to advise... If your amps are compatible, however, then sonically there would be no contest! :)

Marco.

[worrasf]

If your amps are compatible, however, then sonically there would be no contest! :)

Marco.
Thanks Marco - I'll drop Glenn an email and get his advice before potentially frying my (much loved) S4s.

Steve

[worrasf]

Thanks Marco - I'll drop Glenn an email and get his advice before potentially frying my (much loved) S4s.

Steve

And from the horses mouth by return of email (that's the superb after sales service you get from Croft) :)

"Hi Steve,
I wouldn't risk them - the heater current is somewhat higher so I would want to add an extra transformer and check that the bias supply is in the right range.
Cheers,
Glenn"


Nuff said

Steve

[Marco]

It's much as I thought.... And you don't get any better service than advice from the maker himself! :)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Hi Anthony,



Yup, but what I meant was Joe doing the comparison between KT120s and KT88s, using his Quads, not the Copper amp :)

Marco.
AAHHH right,
understood.!:)
Anthony,TD...

[anthonyTD]

And from the horses mouth by return of email (that's the superb after sales service you get from Croft) :)

"Hi Steve,
I wouldn't risk them - the heater current is somewhat higher so I would want to add an extra transformer and check that the bias supply is in the right range.
Cheers,
Glenn"


Nuff said

Steve
hi Steve,
Glen is right about the heaters of the KT120's drawing more current than KT88's however, it isnt a great amount [around 100ma more, for eg, KT88 1.6 amp once warmed up, versus KT120 1.7 amp] so, in most cases the mains transformer should cope, but it will vary between amps, as some amplifiers/mains trasformers already get very hot running the valves they were designed for. The bias for the 120's is also slightly diffrent.
hope this helps.
Regards,Anthony,TD...

[The Black Adder]

Hi Joe,

You should also consider the new 'Tung-Sol' KT120s. Basically, they piss all over ANY KT88, including the GECs!

When we have our sesh, I'll bring some down (along with GEC KT88s) and you can hear the results for yourself :cool:

Marco.

Sounds good my friend! :)

[worrasf]

hi Steve,
Glen is right about the heaters of the KT120's drawing more current than KT88's however, it isnt a great amount [around 100ma more, for eg, KT88 1.6 amp once warmed up, versus KT120 1.7 amp] so, in most cases the mains transformer should cope, but it will vary between amps, as some amplifiers/mains trasformers already get very hot running the valves they were designed for. The bias for the 120's is also slightly diffrent.
hope this helps.
Regards,Anthony,TD...

Thanks Anthony,
I'm currently using NOS GE 6550A's in my Croft S4s - (it came with some no-name Chinese 6550A's) so I assume it was designed around these as opposed to KT88's but I could be wrong. I bias them out at 600mV - it runs reasonably hot but not overly so - bias is very stable month-on-month.

I think I'll take Glenn's advice and leave the KT120's alone just in case.

Steve

[DSJR]

hi Steve,
Glen is right about the heaters of the KT120's drawing more current than KT88's however, it isnt a great amount [around 100ma more, for eg, KT88 1.6 amp once warmed up, versus KT120 1.7 amp] so, in most cases the mains transformer should cope, but it will vary between amps, as some amplifiers/mains trasformers already get very hot running the valves they were designed for. The bias for the 120's is also slightly diffrent.
hope this helps.
Regards,Anthony,TD...

The mains transformers run warm on mine, but it's the chokes that seem to cop the worst of the heat and any molten tar and downward movement of said chokes can be catastrophic I understand, if they short out on the terminals at the bottom...

[The Black Adder]

I've just asked asked Glenn in regards to the KT120's and he said:-

"the KT120 is sufficiently different from the KT88 for me to want to test and adjust [if necessary] any amp before their long term use. The Quad’s do have a reserve of heater current.
Cheers,
Glenn. "

Cheers though Marco.. I think it might be a good way to go eventually though as GEC's are stoopid prices.