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SPS
20-10-2008, 22:13
Hi, we are having a DIY meet at Owston just north of Doncaster on the 8th and 9th of november
Its at the Owston Park Lodge on the A19.

it is mostly diy .. speakers amps decks etc etc..

if you can bring what kit you want.. although there is usually not enough hours in the day.. we do listen to everything..

its a really good day,
there is all sorts of kit to be heard...

please post if you want to attend, the main thread is on Nick's audio-talk forum and a 3rd on the WD forum.. but feel free to post on any..

thanks steve

Mike
23-10-2008, 18:34
I'm still trying to arrange an on-call swap so that I can attend, but no-one's 'playing ball'! :steam:

I'm going to have to resort to threats of violence I think. :mad:

SPS
04-11-2008, 22:11
so far we have attending...

andrew I
steve creswell
dave t b
al newall
max
colin
Will
philip
richard cooper
cressy
greg
james
simon c
tony moore
marco
scott
mark h
Ali
nick
ian sr
bizzie
simon
Mo
graeme
swampy + 3
tony b
richard H
Ed swift
and myself

shane?


If any one else would like to attend please post... asap please
I need the numbers for saturdays buffet soonish..



all the above are down for the saturday.. so thats 32 for the saturday ..and there are quite few of us staying for the sunday.

there will be no access to the room untill 9.30am saturday morning, but again, we have it until closing time ...can we try for a 10.30 start...

usual format for the day

thanks again for your support

steve

Mike
04-11-2008, 22:16
Hi Steve,

Just posted over on WD. I should be there for the Saturday.

Cheers...

Marco
04-11-2008, 22:22
Hi Steve,

I think the Toyster (Steve) is planning on coming on Sunday. I'm not sure if that makes any difference to the buffet arrangements, though :)

Marco.

shane
04-11-2008, 22:27
shane?

Sadly not. :wah:

Cotlake
05-11-2008, 20:21
Hi Shane,

If ever you'd like to break your journey and stop over in Bristol on route and return to make one of these events, please let me know. I'm sure I could accommodate you.

Best wishes,

Greg

Steve Toy
05-11-2008, 20:58
I hope to be there Sunday.

shane
05-11-2008, 21:33
Thanks Greg, that's very kind of you. Right now I can't take the time out but hopefully I'll be able to get to some of the events next year and may take you up on that.

Cotlake
05-11-2008, 22:17
Hi Shane,

No problem. If we plan we can combine travelling and costs also, keeping it all nice and cheap. I'll wait on you to connect accordingly, but please realise the offer stands.

Best wishes,

Greg

Steve Toy
07-11-2008, 17:02
Change of plan:

Following Mo's advice, I'll be up tomorrow around noon. I'll be bringing the AOS/TD grounded grid preamp.

SPS
07-11-2008, 17:14
Change of plan:

Following Mo's advice, I'll be up tomorrow around noon. I'll be bringing the AOS/TD grounded grid preamp.


it will be nice to meet you steve..
I was hoping you may bring a bit more of that kit.. the amp sounds fantistic.. the speakers etc..
if you've room for it in the car....

thats what makes the day for us all...

thanks

steve

shane
07-11-2008, 17:15
Anyone taking a camera?

pure sound
07-11-2008, 17:20
Have a good one. I'd like to have come but I've just done too many 600mile roundtrip weekends recently. Maybe next time. It'd be fun to give the homemade bits an outing.

Look forward to reading about it & seeing the pics.

Mike
07-11-2008, 17:23
Anyone taking a camera?

Me, hopefully....

Things have taken a turn for the worse with the car failing it's MOT, so it's still at the garage until "sometime tomorrow, probably in the morning" - Whatever that means!!!

Bum! :wah:

SPS
07-11-2008, 17:25
Anyone taking a camera?

I think marco did last time..
I am busy on the day.. so i tend to leave the photos and reviews of the day to others..
I tend not to be very vocal about the day afterwards.. being there is best..
marco did a good write up last time i recall...

steve

Ali Tait
07-11-2008, 17:26
Steve,yes I'd be interested in hearing the amp too,if you are able to bring it.Look forward to seeing you there.

Steve Toy
07-11-2008, 18:54
Ok. I will bring the amp but not the speakers. They are just too big and heavy as well as easily marked. Has anyone got speakers that work with 30 Class A Watts of push-pull?

aquapiranha
09-11-2008, 10:09
Since I could not make it, does anyone have any pics???

Steve Toy
09-11-2008, 10:58
I have a few and I know Ali Tate does too. Who was the guy with the serious camera?

Tony Moore
09-11-2008, 11:09
James took quite a few photos I believe, no doubt he'll be posting those at some point. I took one or two which I'll post later today.

Cheers,
Tony

Marco
09-11-2008, 11:11
Simon from the audio talk forum was the guy with the serious camera. Hey, Tony, nice to meet you again :)

What a fab day. I didn't get back home until after 1am because no-one wanted me to take the 1210 away... ;)

The 'business end' of the event definitely took place later in the evening. More on that later!

Yeah, we need to pool all the pics taken, get them posted, and I'll scribble a few words describing the event. I'm sure audio talk will also do their own separate write-up when the guys sober up and return later from Owston :eyebrows:

Marco.

Tony Moore
09-11-2008, 11:26
Hi Marco,

Good to see you again! Sorry I had to rush off. (once again!) Thanks to Steve for organizing the event, it was great to catch up with everyone again.

Here are my few pictures, for what they're worth...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/Owfest_1.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/Owfest_2.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/Owfest_3.jpg


http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/Owfest_4.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/Owfest_5.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/Owfest_6.jpg

Cheers,
Tony

aquapiranha
09-11-2008, 11:40
Nice! keep them coming! :)

Marco
09-11-2008, 12:56
Before the main review of the event is written I have to say (and I'm sure Ali, Mo, SPS, Dave the Bass, etc, will confirm this) that what I heard last night at the end with the KAB 1210, Croft preamp/A23 step-up transformer, Copper amp (and Ali's Audioromy 45w SET Chinese amp) playing Led Zep, Metallica and AC/DC through Steve's (SPS) 100db+ Lowthers was, quite frankly, gob-smacking, and undoubtedly the best sound I've EVER heard from a hi-fi system - this was truly awe-inducing, shocking, life changing stuff :wow:

The sheer sound pressure levels we achieved in a huge room had to be heard to be believed - it was visceral, 'physical', 'real', with endless headroom and dynamics. It had edge, 'grit' and wallop such that you felt the music as well as heard it, just as you do at a live gig. Anyone who's been to see any of the bands above perform live will know that 'buzz' and adrenalin rush you get when being almost pummelled to death with the deafening intensity of the sound - it was just like that: the room was shaking and it made you sweat like a very sweaty thing; it was BAAAAAD with a capital B, baby! :smoking:

We all just sat there shaking our heads in disbelief grinning like Cheshire cats and laughing our tits off!! :lol:

The experience quite simply transcended hi-fi in the conventional sense - we had a band in there playing 'live', 'living and breathing' music...

I'm still trying to recover from the experience and can't get the sound out of my head! As a result, I've arranged for Steve to bring round his speakers to my place, which I'm sure will make the Spendors sound like toys, and then I'll probably be talking to him about how to source the necessary drive units and for him to build me a pair! :eyebrows:

I would add, though, that Ian's Tannoy Canterburys would probably have done a very similar thing on the end of this system. Until I hear Steve's speakers in my system and/or at Ian's I won't be in a position to say which are the most talented speakers. Ian's certainly win the prize for looks, but then that's what you'd expect given their exalted status in the loudspeaker arena and price tag to match.

Marco.

P.S A word on the Audioromy SET valve amp - forget Yaqins and Bewitches, *THIS* is the best Chinese amp out there by a country mile. I would urge anyone who's intending to import a Chinese amp to Google for the Audioromy, get the necessary info, and order one immediately. I will mention more about this stunning little amp later. £350 is a joke!!

aquapiranha
09-11-2008, 13:38
Marco.

forget Yaqins and Bewitches


Better change my avatar quick before anyone notices... :doh:

Just kidding Marco! sounds like you had a great time, I wish I could have made it. there is lots of great looking kit in the pics and if these speakers are as good as you say they are I better get my big hammer out..!

P.S. Is that John Blackburn sitting next to you Marco?

Marco
09-11-2008, 14:05
LOL. Your amp sounds really sweet through your Fostex horns - and, by the way, I was very impressed with your system on Friday :)

In some ways your system (speakers in particular) emulated the sound I heard yesterday in terms of clarity, emotion, and expressiveness (the midrange on your speakers, and subsequent level of musical insight, is vastly superior to what I get with the Spendors) just without the frightening scale, impact, and dynamics of my and (Ali's) kit on the end of Steve's Lowthers.

You'd have loved it, mate - it was a riot :gig:

I'm deliberately not listening to my own speakers until later today when I can then hopefully adjust to their deficiencies in comparison!

Oh, sorry, I don't know John Blackburn so I wouldn't know if he was sitting next to me or not :)

Marco.

aquapiranha
09-11-2008, 14:19
Yeah, I can see what you mean- most speakers have a weakness, mine included. John may or may not be the chap on you left in the leather jacket, he is a yorkshireman but he lives here on the wirral. I am sure he mentioned to me he was going last time I saw him.

Do you have any more details of the speakers in question? drivers? construction etc?

cheers. oh, if I can coincide my visit with Steve's speakers that would be cool!!

Marco
09-11-2008, 14:59
Do you have any more details of the speakers in question? drivers? construction etc?

cheers. oh, if I can coincide my visit with Steve's speakers that would be cool!!


Should be a go-er... With Ian, we should just about get the three of us in the room with all the speakers :)

Steve will let you know more about the drivers when he no doubt comments later or Monday. All I know is that they are over 100db efficiency and have Lowther horns and NOS Goodmans Maxim bass units x2 per speaker (12"-ers I think). You can just imagine the ludicrous SPLs they create :mental: :eyebrows:

But it's not just the loudness - it's the sheer dynamics, harmonic detail, freedom from box colorations, and realism of the sound with all sorts of music. I should point out though that they are ruthlessly, even savagely, revealing and demand high quality source and control components, if not they can sound fierce to the point of ear bleed!

Get it right though, and IMO that means a top-notch vinyl source at the helm, neutral sounding valve preamp, and either a capable SET or p/p amp with no 'edge' or 'glare' and the results are utterly phenomenal. Steve will probably say that he still prefers the low-wattage SET route, and I can understand why, but after what I heard yesterday 30w Class A p/p via my Copper amp or Ali's, quite frankly amazing Audioromy, which sounds nothing like any SET amp I've heard before (this thing has balls like a bull!), is the only way to go.

I want serious grunt! :fingers:

Marco.

Togil
09-11-2008, 16:48
The original Led Zeppelin live sound was actually quite subtle compared to The Who, eg. no 120db stuff !

Marco
09-11-2008, 17:21
That's very true, Hans. Although there was nothing 'subtle' about the sound we achieved in that room last night, I can tell you! :rock: :surf:

It was the most 'live' sound I've ever heard in my life from a hi-fi system. Anyone who thinks valve equipment and vinyl sounds 'warm & cosy' would have got the biggest shock of their lives! It's a complete and utter fallacy with the right equipment.

There's something about the massive dynamic range and headroom of valve gear that makes it sound much more powerful than solid-state equivalents. I honestly think it would have taken about a kilowatt of power from any transistor amp (with suitable speakers) to have created the sort of sound pressure levels and quality of sonic reproduction we achieved in that room last night.

:uhho:

It was bloody awesome!

Marco.

Togil
09-11-2008, 18:26
I agree, having heard the Allnic 300B parallel SET amps in an Allnic customer's home in Korea this summer (through custom speakers) - the most dynamic and realistic reproduction of drums I have ever heard.
I still prefer the midrange of my Quads though to any horn speaker I have heard.

Ali Tait
09-11-2008, 20:03
Yes,have to say I've never heard Led Zep like that ever with this 813 SE.Gobsmacking is the only word to use.We were laughing like loons!You'd have to hear them live to better it! Marco,I've been listening to it in my system for a few hours now,and we really missed out on something.Andrew,in his typically understated fashion,said that it sounds better with the NOS valves he gave me with it,in place of the modern Chinese jobbies we were listening to.He was wrong.They're not better,they're WAY better.Shame we didn't try them there.Would have made quite a difference.I'll post more later,and the pics.Too busy listening to my new amp! Good to see you again,and good to meet you too Steve.Rock on!! :gig:

Ali Tait
09-11-2008, 20:06
Forgot to say,Steve's speakers are an open-baffle design consisting of a Lowther EX 4 (Top of the EX range),Goodmans Axiom 301 12" fullrange and a Goodmans 12" Woofer per speaker.Very nice!

pure sound
09-11-2008, 20:08
I was going to ask which they were. I couldn't see any horns in the pics.

Marco
09-11-2008, 20:19
Ah, sorry for my mistake. I thought Steve's speakers were horn-driven. Whatever they were they worked like a dream and were something *very* special indeed to my ears with the kit in question :)


You'd have to hear them live to better it!


Bloody right!!!

Ali, it was really good to meet you again mate. That little Chinese amp is a bit tasty! I think you've got lots of fun ahead of you with that one :eyebrows:

I'd love to hear it in my system (and so would Ian Walker) so we'll definitely have to arrange a date for you to visit in the near future :smoking:

Marco.

Ali Tait
09-11-2008, 20:28
Yes we'll arrange something.You have to hear this with the RCA valves.A huge difference! I wasn't that keen on the sound through the statics with the chinese ones,but I though it was just a case of waiting for it to warm up.I was wrong,they're just crap by comparison.First thing is a decent nos 5u4g,them maybe think about some better output trannies.I think this amp has some potential.

themystical
09-11-2008, 21:31
Sounds like you guys were just waiting for me to go before starting with the real party!!!:)
Steve Toy's (AOS) amp was the front runner (IMHO) but the big guns didn't come out till later ehhh:eyebrows:

Ali Tait
09-11-2008, 21:43
Well I wasn't expecting what we got out of the 813.SE with balls!

Marco
09-11-2008, 22:35
More pics here, folks, courtesy of Simon :):

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15681&sid=9d04ee01a39e8ed46fadc399aa62bb7d#15681

Marco.

Marco
10-11-2008, 11:00
Hi Steve,

I thought you'd have commented by now on what you heard at Owston. I'd appreciate your thoughts on what I've written about your speakers and some more information about the drive units used, etc, as I may be interested in you building me a pair :smoking:

Marco.

Marco
10-11-2008, 11:26
The highlights for me were Graeme's deck (and its synergy with the rest of his system) - his award was indeed merited. Nice one, mate

I also liked Colin's amp - it looked beautiful, too, but I thought it sounded much better the second time through the vinyl set-up and bigger speakers (Steve's I think?) at the other end of the room, as the first time through the MLTLs there was little real volume achievable before the sound distorted.

This is something that would frustrate me with low-wattage SETs and smallish open baffles. I know the room was huge, which wouldn't have helped, but I get the impression this sort of set -up wouldn't be practical for me even at home, as when I want to listen loud I like to have the headroom available to do so without feeling that things might go pop. This is where speakers like Steve's Lowthers and a more 'meaty' amp either SET or p/p comes in as far as I'm concerned.

Other highlights for me were both Garrard 401s - the one with the Audio Technica arm and the one with the huge big long arm in the slate plinth; I'm sorry but I forget who they belonged to. These were truly excellent and I could easily live with either deck at home. There's something about the Garrard sound (when properly set-up) that's magical.

The little AE1 floorstanders were also amazing for their price - what a huge room filling sound they produced on the end of my system!

DTB's little Fostex standmounts were also amazing for their size, and in a small room I think would make for an intimate and magical listening experience, and his craftsmanship and attention to detail was of the highest quality (much like Colin's always is) - respect, dude :smoking:

I also liked Richard's deck and set-up with his new Pickering MM cartridge - this had a lovely detailed open and neutral sound and tracked like a demon, revealing layers of musical information in a rhythmic and entertaining fashion.

Nick's DAC sounded superb too, and better to me than I've heard it before, so I suspect he's tweaked it again since Chester. It was sounding very nice indeed, I thought, so well done mate!

Despite what some others may have thought, I loved Steve's old Shure cartridge on his FR arm with the TD124. I don't think it's ideally set-up yet (but I'm sure Steve will get it right in the end) but to my ears it had a beautifully wide-open, fluid sound with a lovely natural tone and frightening dynamics and clarity - just the sort of sound I like, if he can sort out the mistracking issues and/or the fact that the stylus may be worn. I wonder if Steve's looked at it under a microscope.

Anyway, there was other stuff too that I liked but this is the gear that sticks in my mind most. So thanks again to Steve for organising the event. It's always a pleasure attending these events because the company is great and you always go away having learned something new.

Marco.

bonneville
10-11-2008, 13:46
Hi Marco
This is my first post on this site,I heard Steves speakers at the last Owston meet and was very impressed .If you are contemplating making a pair I have a mint pair of Goodmans 301's that I wish to sell,they are the 8 ohm version and are mounted in a vintage pair of corner cabinets at the moment,I would like to sell as a complete package though rather than just the drive units .I am located in St Helens Merseyside .

Cheers
Vinnie
ps I have used these with as little as 1 watt spud amps.

Marco
10-11-2008, 15:57
Hi Vinny,

Welcome to the forum :)

Thanks for the offer - I may well take you up on that! Steve's speakers, with the right kit at the helm, impress the hell out of me :smoking:

I love the Spendors, and they do most things extremely well. But when you hear the wide-open midrange and sheer clarity of OBs (and horns) done well it's something else. If I can get the bass impact and scale I'm used to (as I see this as the ONLY potential weak point with OBs) then they will be a f*cking riot in my room on the end of my system! :lol:

Marco.

aquapiranha
10-11-2008, 16:55
It certainly looks like a good time was had by all and there is quite a variety of kit there. I only hope that I am able to attend, and indeed invited to the next one..

Vinnie, I hope you enjoyed your little trip over here with Ian last week. I liked your Decware very much! You are welcome to come over anytime.

NB If you are another Vinnie, please disregard my ramblings as the words of a troubled soul who has partaken of a little too much falling down water..

Mike
10-11-2008, 17:27
Hi Marco
This is my first post on this site,I heard Steves speakers at the last Owston meet and was very impressed .If you are contemplating making a pair I have a mint pair of Goodmans 301's that I wish to sell,they are the 8 ohm version and are mounted in a vintage pair of corner cabinets at the moment,I would like to sell as a complete package though rather than just the drive units .I am located in St Helens Merseyside .

Cheers
Vinnie
ps I have used these with as little as 1 watt spud amps.

If Marco doesn't take you up on that offer, I will! :)

Cheers...

SPS
10-11-2008, 18:38
Hi Steve,

I thought you'd have commented by now on what you heard at Owston. I'd appreciate your thoughts on what I've written about your speakers and some more information about the drive units used, etc, as I may be interested in you building me a pair :smoking:

Marco.


i do my best not to do many comments...

these diy 'meets' are just that.. diy meets, a place where like minded poeple like me can compare what we have done, made and tweeked... and learn..

i was a little suprised by your reaction to my speakers along with your kit though.... not used to those sorts of comments after these meets
my speakers are not perfect and are very much work in progress.

you where fortunate to be left for a couple of hours with all the speakers to try, and with a your known source, music and amp.
you realised what hi efficency can do if one works at it, i have over the years..
my speakers are designed to drive my room its about 15x18, they do that very well with around 2 watts
i would guess there where about 5-6 watts going into them from your amp to get those levels,


that sweet detailed sound is what we strive for with our little amps.. 5 watts
is alot with the right speakers in the average lounge


many of the speakers there to me are quite fantastic.. as lads have also managed to get a very good sound with very reasonable costs and a fair bit of skill, we all appreciate that at our meets very much, and back home they all sound really good, much better in my view than much(all?) of the stuff in the hi fi shops.. its easy to dismiss how good some of this kit is in context to the costs of it, extended listening is required..

many of the lads who brought there kit have been in the position you are now, years ago.. i too was a box speaker user (ns1000's) and have had lots of kit over the years.. and heard lots more

back home in my lounge small quality SE amps do the business for me
i had some good push pull and pentode amps.. i have around 20 differnt amps in the garage, i would not use a mullard circuit nowadays..they are ok..
but that sweet detailed and lifelike sound of a good none feed back SE triode amp takes some beating.. and there where some very good ones there i may add.

from the kit i've heard.. so far in my life , i would go as far to say SE amps are unbeatable in my lounge..in saying that, there are far too many poor ones in the shops for the majority to understand what i've said.

its easy to over react to what you've heard.. you didn't really like them last time you heard them... maybe you will appreciate our se amps in a new light next time?, or maybe not..?

cheers steve

bonneville
10-11-2008, 18:48
Hi Steve
Yep I'm the self same Vinnie,I would like to thank you for your hospitality and the chance to hear the Decware on horns.If you have not been to Ian's yet you are most welcome to call round to see my set up at the same time I live 4 miles from Ian.

Regards

Vinnie

aquapiranha
10-11-2008, 23:39
Hi Steve
Yep I'm the self same Vinnie,I would like to thank you for your hospitality and the chance to hear the Decware on horns.If you have not been to Ian's yet you are most welcome to call round to see my set up at the same time I live 4 miles from Ian.

Regards

Vinnie

I am hoping to get oevr to Ian's some time this week, if that is ok with Ian of course, so it would be nice to call in!

Marco
11-11-2008, 00:21
Hi Steve,


these diy 'meets' are just that.. diy meets, a place where like minded poeple like me can compare what we have done, made and tweeked... and learn..


I agree, but as I'm not a D.I.Y-er, or ever likely to be one, then I learn from the experience in a different way. I use the information obtained from what I hear to improve my system by implementing some of other people's ideas. For example, I picked up on what NOS valves are capable of from people like you and others at Owston (as well as from the likes of Anthony) and I've now learned that large, high efficiency, open baffles can sound truly wonderful on the end of my Copper amp, and other high quality and capable non-low wattage designs such as Ali's Audioromy. Even though it's an SET amp, it sounds as powerful as any p/p. It just lacks a little bit of subtlety, but I'm sure Ali's sorted that out by upgrading the Chinese valves.

In effect, speakers like yours don't *have* to be used with low-wattage SET amps, which aren't really my thing, and I didn't know that until I heard it demonstrated to such great effect on Saturday :)


i was a little suprised by your reaction to my speakers along with your kit though.... not used to those sorts of comments after these meets
my speakers are not perfect and are very much work in progress.


Well I tell it like I hear it Steve, and I was very impressed. Apart from the fact that Ali's amp sounded a bit bright (for reasons discussed) it really was a fantastic sound and done justice to the kind of music we were playing. Nothing is perfect though, as you say, but your speakers (with the right source and amp) hit the spot for me more than any other large open baffles I've heard.


you where fortunate to be left for a couple of hours with all the speakers to try, and with a your known source, music and amp.
you realised what hi efficency can do if one works at it, i have over the years..


Too right I did! But for me, audio nirvana is not achieved with a low-wattage SET amp and high efficiency speakers - it's high efficiency speakers with 30w of Class A p/p power (or 45w of Audioromy SET) up them! :gig:



that sweet detailed sound is what we strive for with our little amps..


That's fine - I appreciate that, but it's not what puts the biggest smile on my face. Different strokes for different folks...


many of the speakers there to me are quite fantastic.. as lads have also managed to get a very good sound with very reasonable costs and a fair bit of skill, we all appreciate that at our meets very much, and back home they all sound really good, much better in my view than much(all?) of the stuff in the hi fi shops.. its easy to dismiss how good some of this kit is in context to the costs of it, extended listening is required..


I completely agree, especially with regard to some of the stuff sold in hi-fi shops. I very much admire the designs that some of the lads have come up with - certainly they are far beyond anything I could ever hope to achieve with D.I.Y. However, at the end of the day, I have to judge things from the point of view of whether I could live with it at home, and with some of it I could, and with others I couldn't. I have to be honest and say what I think otherwise it would be a case of patronising people, and I won't do that. Also, as far as AOS is concerned I have to report what I hear honestly and accurately (as I see it) for the benefit of others who weren't there, and also from a non-D.I.Y perspective, as this forum is different from audio talk.


back home in my lounge small quality SE amps do the business for me
i had some good push pull and pentode amps.. i have around 20 differnt amps in the garage, i would not use a mullard circuit nowadays..they are ok..
but that sweet detailed and lifelike sound of a good none feed back SE triode amp takes some beating.. and there where some very good ones there i may add.


I agree. What they do well they do VERY well, but unfortunately what they don't do so well is important to me and essential for my enjoyment of music. Low-wattage SET amps and small open baffles I've heard so far are too much a case of 'having all your eggs in the one basket', if you see what I mean. High quality, well-designed, push-pull amps and speakers like yours, or big Tannoys, are IMO a much more versatile combination that do justice to a wider variety of music played at any volume. No offence, but we're not all into listening to female vocalists singing ballads ;)


from the kit i've heard.. so far in my life , i would go as far to say SE amps are unbeatable in my lounge..in saying that, there are far too many poor ones in the shops for the majority to understand what i've said.


Again I agree, and it's the same with p/p, too. 90% of commercial valve amps, certainly those represented by the 'big' names I've heard, are over-complicated and have too much of their design budget spent on making them look pretty at the expense of performance. That's one of the main reasons why valve amps often get a bad name outside of those with the experience to know differently.


its easy to over react to what you've heard.. you didn't really like them last time you heard them... maybe you will appreciate our se amps in a new light next time?, or maybe not..?


Steve, I will never say never. I will *always* retain an open mind. My comments on low-wattage SETs simply reflect what I've heard so far. If I hear something that changes my mind I will wax lyrical about it in the same way as I have about what I heard on Saturday. Perhaps I need to hear a low-wattage SET amp and open baffles at home to fully appreciate what they can do? Well you know how to sort that one... Come over to my place and show me the error of my ways! :lolsign:

Marco.

Steve Toy
11-11-2008, 02:49
The quality of art of sound achieved at Owson for me was nothing short of Amazing. I can think of a few dealers who, if they were honest, would be crying into their beer at the fact that no matter how much money they may throw at commercial kit they happen to sell - and hopefully make money from, they will never achieve the level of involvemet and sheer realism as I heard on Saturday.

I'm no DIYer but what I learnt at Owston was that those who are are a force to be reckoned with in terms of achieving best sound/musicality possible. The Tube Distinctions amps (mine and Marco's) were there simply as a point of reference for me to be challenged and to some extent they were, big time! They do things differently for sure and Anthony has every reason to be proud, but he's against some stiff competition in a situation that really is a case of different strokes for different folks at different times.

Absolutists here, really should not apply.

I also learnt that vinyl when done well, pisses all over any other source for sheer emotional impact. Garrard 401s rule, certainly in what they do best.

aquapiranha
11-11-2008, 21:25
I really love the DIY audio "scene". It really opens your eyes to what is possible for mere mortals like us to create!
I am in no way a DIY guru like some here, but I can see the value in doing things for yourself, plus the satisfaction that you built something yourself.

Keep it up guys! :)

Andy831
12-11-2008, 00:05
The thing that puzzles me, are they designing circuits from scratch? using older designs from the golden age of valve amps or taking those designs and modifying them.

If its the former then total respect, however if they simply rework older designs then is this not almost the same as assembling a kit?

Puzzled in Yorkshire

Steve Toy
12-11-2008, 00:49
It's perhaps almost the same but then I guess there are only so many designs around that actually work. I'm a great believer in the notion that there really is no such thing as pure originality. There does exist however implementation and interpretation of what has gone before and this is where the skill really lies.

The issue is one of "intertextuality" and this notion has been used in literature and art generally since the mid part of the last century. The theory is basically that even with 'original' thought, someone has, at some point before come up with a near identical idea.

These guys must study different tried and used circuits and have chosen one that suits them from what is probably not an infinite set of workable combinations. Then of course lies the choice of stock components selected to do a particular job in perhaps an already established signal topology.

Prince of Darkness
12-11-2008, 07:47
The thing that puzzles me, are they designing circuits from scratch? using older designs from the golden age of valve amps or taking those designs and modifying them.

If its the former then total respect, however if they simply rework older designs then is this not almost the same as assembling a kit?

Puzzled in Yorkshire

All of the above!:) Depending upon ability and inclination people are building classic designs, modified versions of classics, new designs posted on the internet, or their own designs.
My own current project is an integrated SE using KT66 output valves. The Power amp was designed by me from scratch (though I copied the PSU), but I am including a hardwired version of the WAD Phono II phono stage.

Andy831
12-11-2008, 08:52
Kevin

Thanks for that reply, that clears it up for me. I so wish I had the ability to design and build like you lads clearly acheive.

I fear though I am always destined to be a lurker rather than a do`er, however I am quite happy picking up you lads cast offs and pressing them back into service.

I have heard some of Nick Goreham`s amps and they are second to none in my opinion.

Fantastic ...keep up the good work

Marco
12-11-2008, 09:58
I agree, Andy, and also with the comments of others above. Particularly this from Steve regarding SETs vs. P/Ps:


They do things differently for sure and Anthony has every reason to be proud, but he's against some stiff competition in a situation that really is a case of different strokes for different folks at different times.

Absolutists here, really should not apply.


I only wish that the notion of 'low-wattage SET rules uber alles' wasn't quite so prevalent amongst the Owston diehards, a little at the expense of keeping an open mind, IMHO ;)

There's no doubt though that there are some talented valve designers amongst them, Nick G being one of them.

Having heard the joys of Ian's superb p/p amp with his Tannoys I'm surprised you're not flogging that 300B :eyebrows:

Marco.

Andy831
12-11-2008, 11:13
Marco

You came here and listened to my Glasshouse. We then put on Ians new amp and both you and Ian prefered the apparant increase in dynamics and bass weight that Ians amp gave. In fact you said to me when you were leaving that whilst you enjoyed the sound of my glasshouse set amp you personally could not live without the dynamics that a more powerful push pull amp gave.

I thought long and hard about that and over successive evenings listened again with slightly different ears to my Glasshouse.

After listening at Ians place the sound of his system, was all over my head for a couple of days afterwards.The bass is far more projected and pronouced. so again back to my system and replay yet again the same records and listen again.

Whilst I accept and understand where you are coming from, I too actually prefer the more delicate and slightly more musical presentation of Set amps, accepting the slightly toned down lower end frequencies.

Now, if you read the Audio-talk thread thoroughly it really crystalizes the point that we can clearly split valve lovers into two different camps, those like me and the lads on that forum that like SET amps and others like yourself and Ian and probably Steven who need that bass fix thats better given by push pull.

Just my take on the matter, neither approach is wrong, nor for that matter is Solid State wrong, its just that we are all looking for something slightly different in our two channel Hi Fi systems.





Regards

Marco
12-11-2008, 11:52
Hi Andy,


You came here and listened to my Glasshouse. We then put on Ians new amp and both you and Ian prefered the apparant increase in dynamics and bass weight that Ians amp gave. In fact you said to me when you were leaving that whilst you enjoyed the sound of my glasshouse set amp you personally could not live without the dynamics that a more powerful push pull amp gave.


That's absolutely right, although your amp was also very good. What impressed me most about your system though were your speakers, which Ian has since 'embraced' by getting his own versions, your Decware preamp, and Garrard 301 - those were truly excellent.


thought long and hard about that and over successive evenings listened again with slightly different ears to my Glasshouse.

After listening at Ians place the sound of his system, was all over my head for a couple of days afterwards.The bass is far more projected and pronouced. so again back to my system and replay yet again the same records and listen again.

Whilst I accept and understand where you are coming from, I too actually prefer the more delicate and slightly more musical presentation of Set amps, accepting the slightly toned down lower end frequencies.


I completely understand, Andy, and that's fine :)

At least though you took your time and analysed things thoroughly with Ian's amp before reaching a proper informed conclusion, which is to be admired and respected. This is however in stark contrast to some of the uncalled for downright rude remarks directed at my (and Steve's) amps by certain ill-informed individuals on audio talk. I shall say no more as I will not drag some of the crap that's happened over there to AOS, where the content is somewhat less 'religious', less cliquey, and more open-minded.

There are some really smashing lads who go to the Owston fest, and we get on very well, but there are others who firmly come under another category altogether! 'Nuff said ;)

I'm hopefully going round to Ian's tonight where Al will be visiting, so It'll be interesting to hear his take on Ian's system :smoking:

Marco.

i_should_coco
12-11-2008, 12:00
I've built PP and SET amps, good and bad examples of both. I see SET and PP as different "flavours". I hate to generalise, but PP generally sounds a bit leaner and cleaner to me, with a more even FR and wider bandwidth, while SET is more restricted in bandwidth, but is often glorious in the midrange. I said I hate to generalise and that's because it's pretty much possible to make each topology sound much like the other.

The two topologies will have different distortion spectra, due to the cancellation of even-order distortion in PP. Now while the cancellation helps with the overall distortion figure, it's imperfect and this means the spectrum is no longer monotonic. My belief is that this does make a difference.

It's also much easier to wind a PP transformer, and this is where the extra bandwidth generally comes from in PP. A good SET OPT is extremely expensive, which is why you won't see anything like Tango or Tamura in a design costing less than GBP 5-10k.

There are plenty of bad SETs out there, a lot of people don't know how to design a driver stage for a 300B (and a 300B needs a serious driver if it's to sound good, 12AX7s and such are just... inadequate). Actually, this is true for PP too. :)

Steve Toy
12-11-2008, 12:14
Marco,

Group identity etc issues. Lets just leave it, eh? No more digs. Also, I think we here can accused of being evangelical at times. It's called nailing your colours to the mast and there's nothing wrong with that. Enthusiasm is no bad thing and we can all be enthusiastic, even downright dogmatic without falling out.

Surely. :rolleyes:

So lets be grown up about this and let this one die a natural and get back to normal.

Mr. C
12-11-2008, 12:14
An astute observation Pete

Marco
12-11-2008, 12:24
Steve,


So lets be grown up about this and let this one die a natural get back to normal.

Absolutely :)

I agree with the above but not necessarily with the rest of your post. However, subject closed, and indeed no further discussion will be permitted on this matter ;)

Pete,

Great post! Personally, I think much depends on the contents of your music collection.

Marco.

i_should_coco
12-11-2008, 12:29
Personally, I think much depends on the contents of your music collection.

Marco.

Yes, definitely, inasmuch as the "flavour" will suit certain types better than others. I would also suggest that the speaker choice could be important here, too.

Filterlab
12-11-2008, 12:30
Yes, definitely, inasmuch as the "flavour" will suit certain types better than others. I would also suggest that the speaker choice could be important here, too.

Very important, in my opinion more important than any other component.

Andy831
12-11-2008, 13:15
That's absolutely right, although your amp was also very good. What impressed me most about your system though were your speakers, which Ian has since 'embraced' by getting his own versions, your Decware preamp, and Garrard 301 - those were truly excellent..

Nick G has converted the Glasshouse back to full integrated since you were last here and the Decware has now become redundant, the Garrard 301 has taken another jump forward in performance with the introduction of rubber grommits to pack the table away from the plinth and I am looking at slate options for replinthing the Garrard 401 :)








I'm hopefully going round to Ian's tonight where Al will be visiting, so It'll be interesting to hear his take on Ian's system :smoking:

Hey have a good time, try and convince him he needs some vinyl to complete his front end. :cool:

anthonyTD
12-11-2008, 13:44
I've built PP and SET amps, good and bad examples of both. I see SET and PP as different "flavours". I hate to generalise, but PP generally sounds a bit leaner and cleaner to me, with a more even FR and wider bandwidth, while SET is more restricted in bandwidth, but is often glorious in the midrange. I said I hate to generalise and that's because it's pretty much possible to make each topology sound much like the other.

The two topologies will have different distortion spectra, due to the cancellation of even-order distortion in PP. Now while the cancellation helps with the overall distortion figure, it's imperfect and this means the spectrum is no longer monotonic. My belief is that this does make a difference.

It's also much easier to wind a PP transformer, and this is where the extra bandwidth generally comes from in PP. A good SET OPT is extremely expensive, which is why you won't see anything like Tango or Tamura in a design costing less than GBP 5-10k.

There are plenty of bad SETs out there, a lot of people don't know how to design a driver stage for a 300B (and a 300B needs a serious driver if it's to sound good, 12AX7s and such are just... inadequate). Actually, this is true for PP too. :)

hi all,
have read the comments on here, and over on the "other channel" and have not commented on either untill now, the above comments are very well put, and without even begining to come over as ofensive,;) this is what debates should be like, not one slagging the other's efforts off without giving a thought as to why and what type of system this piece of equipment belongs in,:( there are valve amps that do scale and power, and there are valve amps that do subtle and mid range to die for, its all about what type of person you are and more to the point the type of music your trying to re-produce.
push-pull do indeed have their faults but, so do SET's and both will never be perfect, but as long as we all see them for their good points and stop going on about their mis givings we can enjoy good performance from both.
regards,anthony,TD...:)
PS, i agree about using inferior valves for driver stages, spot on.:)

i_should_coco
12-11-2008, 14:00
hi all,
have read the comments on here, and over on the "other channel" and have not commented on either untill now, the above comments are very well put, and without even begining to come over as ofensive,;) this is what debates should be like, not one slagging the other's efforts off without giving a thought as to why and what type of system this piece of equipment belongs in,:( there are valve amps that do scale and power, and there are valve amps that do subtle and mid range to die for, its all about what type of person you are and more to the point the type of music your trying to re-produce.
push-pull do indeed have their faults but, so do SET's and both will never be perfect, but as long as we all see them for their good points and stop going on about their mis givings we can enjoy good performance from both.
regards,anthony,TD...:)
PS, i agree about using inferior valves for driver stages, spot on.:)

Absolutely. :)

Discussing the benefits of SET vs PP outside the context of a matched system is futile.

One thing which frustrates me is people who stick a 300B SET in to drive some inefficient B&Ws or such, then find that it sounds loose in the bass, muddy and un-dynamic, then come to the conclusion that SETs are crap. Well, duh! :doh: Of course you will get poor results! I would consider the above a horrendous mis-match. Stick the same amp in a veyr efficient horn system and you will quite possibly get magic.

I guess my point is that the *system* has to be considered together, not just individual components. I would agree that speakers and the acoustic environment make the biggest difference, so if you find speakers you like the sound of you will then have to find an amp that works well with them, or be prepared to change both to go in a different direction.

anthonyTD
12-11-2008, 14:10
Absolutely. :)

Discussing the benefits of SET vs PP outside the context of a matched system is futile.

One thing which frustrates me is people who stick a 300B SET in to drive some inefficient B&Ws or such, then find that it sounds loose in the bass, muddy and un-dynamic, then come to the conclusion that SETs are crap. Well, duh! :doh: Of course you will get poor results! I would consider the above a horrendous mis-match. Stick the same amp in a veyr efficient horn system and you will quite possibly get magic.

I guess my point is that the *system* has to be considered together, not just individual components. I would agree that speakers and the acoustic environment make the biggest difference, so if you find speakers you like the sound of you will then have to find an amp that works well with them, or be prepared to change both to go in a different direction.

again, spot on!!!
and something ian [jesse] knows all about...:lolsign:
anthony,TD...:)

bonneville
12-11-2008, 14:11
Hi Marco
I hope this is the right place to contact you personally,I am unable to part with my Goodmans 301's at the moment as my deal for their replacements fell through,if and when I find something that takes my fancy I would give you first option should you still want them.
Vinnie

Steve Toy
12-11-2008, 14:12
One thing which frustrates me is people who stick a 300B SET in to drive some inefficient B&Ws or such, then find that it sounds loose in the bass, muddy and un-dynamic, then come to the conclusion that SETs are crap. Well, duh! :doh: Of course you will get poor results! I would consider the above a horrendous mis-match. Stick the same amp in a veyr efficient horn system and you will quite possibly get magic.



I would say it is true the other way round too; stick a push-pull delivering lots of current through a very high-sensitivity speaker and you may get a constipated sound - not the fault of the amp. Equally if you use a lowish sensitivity speaker that is not in a well braced and dense cabinet you'll get box coloration and bass overhang. Again, not the fault of the amp.

Systems have to be considered holostically, paying attention to synergistic issues of this nature.

Marco
12-11-2008, 15:05
Some really important and pertinent posts there, Pete, Anthony and Steve! :)

This, in particular, I may make into my signature in big bold red writing:


Discussing the benefits of SET vs PP outside the context of a matched system is futile.


100% correct! :clap:

And anyone who suggests, thinks, or acts differently is, well, I'll leave it to your imagination... ;)

However, this bit is also correct and *almost* as significant:


I guess my point is that the *system* has to be considered together, not just individual components.


Too bloody right. Some people should take note!!

Marco.

Marco
12-11-2008, 15:18
Hi Marco
I hope this is the right place to contact you personally,I am unable to part with my Goodmans 301's at the moment as my deal for their replacements fell through,if and when I find something that takes my fancy I would give you first option should you still want them.
Vinnie

Hi Vinnie,

No worries. Keep me posted if things change :)

Best,
Marco.

Marco
13-11-2008, 11:17
I'm hopefully going round to Ian's tonight where Al will be visiting, so It'll be interesting to hear his take on Ian's system


Well, Al visited Ian and brought his OBs with him... What an eye-opener (or perhaps I should say 'ear-opener') that was! :wow:

More later when I finish some work. In fact, I may start a separate thread...

Meanwhile, perhaps Al might like to comment? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Andy831
13-11-2008, 16:26
Come on then, don`t leave us hanging!!!!!!!!

What are the Ob`s are they full range or do they have a X over? Whos drivers etc etc etc. :lolsign: we need information.

I have heard Obs several times now and have never failed to be impressed :mental:

anthonyTD
13-11-2008, 16:32
hi all,
well, some of you guys on here that have got to know me quite well will know that i dont get into slagging matches, or controvercy lightly, but,,,,,,,
my honest take on what was said at owsten...
in many ways i am releived to learn the outcome of one paticular piece of equipment ie, it wasnt to the usual standard of the some of the SET guys stuff, in other words, if the piece of equipment in question had performed well with such piss poor ancilarries connected to it, i would now be questioning my career.:lolsign:
anthony,TD...

Steve Toy
13-11-2008, 16:44
I really must refrain from laughing :(

Too much :D

Mike
13-11-2008, 17:14
Huh?.... Lost me. :confused:

anthonyTD
13-11-2008, 17:28
Huh?.... Lost me. :confused:

no worries mike,:lolsign: its all water under the bridge now mate...
A......

Mike
13-11-2008, 17:41
Yeah, maybe so..... But I'm a nosy b@stard! :lolsign:

anthonyTD
13-11-2008, 17:52
:lolsign:

Marco
13-11-2008, 17:54
Where have you been, Mikey - planet Zuton? :lol:

I presume you've read the thread on audio talk and the, erm, 'constructive' comments I received about the Copper amp from some of their resident audio luminaries ;)

Andy,

I wasn't aware of any X-over, so I assume full range. Al will fill you in on that score. I have no doubt though that OBs done well (and I mean taken to the limits that I will go to) are the most truthful type of transducer there is. The sheer clarity and insight into music is nothing short of breathtaking - more so than even classic Tannoys are capable of, although OBs don't have their sheer scale or musical versatility, but that would probably change if one put enough money into the design.

The problem is can you handle 'the truth'? Because the sound is completely free of box coloration, you get this shockingly vivid rendition of music with a crystal clear clarity that can at times be rather uncomfortable to listen to. You just don't realise how much speaker cabinets are 'cosseting' the musical signal - even the best ones! Listening to OBs is therefore a bit of an adrenalin rush; it's like your eardrums are hard-wired to the musical signal, and so it's a matter of adjusting and learning to deal with this amount of 'honesty'.

Anyway, the upshot is I've arranged for Al to bring round his OBs next week (Steve Shiels is also hopefully coming on Saturday with his Lowthers) and if I like what I hear in my own system I will commission someone to build me a bespoke pair to my driver specifications. I'm looking at designs with twin 12" bass units and two midrange/tweeter units above, but I don't know yet exactly which drivers I will use. I will obviously need to take advice on this.

Like I said before, 'audio nirvana' for me is now a pair of huge f*ck off high sensitivity OBs with 30w of Class A push-pull up them via my Copper amp. If I get it right (and believe me I will do whatever it takes!) I think the results will be staggering... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike
13-11-2008, 17:57
Where have you been, Mikey - planet Zuton? :lol:

I presume you've read the thread on audio talk and the, erm, 'constructive' comments I received about the Copper amp from some of their resident audio luminaries ;)

Nope! :confused:

Marco
13-11-2008, 18:07
Check it out then:

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=917&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

You want pages 9-13. Pay particular attention to Andrew Ivimey's post and his comments about the Copper amp (3rd last on page 10!) :mental:

This comment from Ali below is also significant, given he was one of the Owston crew who doesn't possess cloth ears and a serious attitude problem ;)


Crossed wires here perhaps.Andrew,Marco was talking about what we got up to when everyone was eating.There was only Marco and myself there for quite a while.We listened to some Zep through his Technics and the 813 into Steve's speakers at very high volume.It sounded amazing,a huge effortless sound with endless headroom.One of the best hi-fi moments I've ever had.

Indeed!!! And the sound was even better with the Copper amp in the same system earlier...

I'd appreciate your thoughts when you've read the thread and how you think I was treated, especially by some people I thought I knew.

Marco.

Marco
13-11-2008, 18:28
Anthony,


in many ways i am releived to learn the outcome of one paticular piece of equipment ie, it wasnt to the usual standard of the some of the SET guys stuff, in other words, if the piece of equipment in question had performed well with such piss poor ancilarries connected to it, i would now be questioning my career.


F*cking hilarious!! :lol: :eyebrows:

The only thing is it was mostly my ancillaries that were connected to it (KAB 1210 and Croft preamp); these were initially used with a pair of small Acoustic Energy floorstanding speakers... Later the same system (with the Copper amp) was used with Steve Sheils' Lowthers, but I know what you meant! ;)

Marco.

Ali Tait
13-11-2008, 19:00
Glad you've now heard how much a box influences the sound Marco.I like my statics too much to go OB,but I'd never go back to a box speaker now.

Marco
13-11-2008, 19:09
Yes I was very impressed, Ali! I know exactly what you mean about box speakers now :)

The Spendors and Ian's Tannoy Canterburys, though, are none too shabby ;)

*But* there's no doubt OBs done well provide a crystal-clear open window on the music that's absolutely beguiling...

Marco.

alb
13-11-2008, 23:22
Right here goes.

Firstly, Ians gear works exceptionally well.
It was the first time i have heard drums reproduced with convincing dynamics and some degree of tonal accuracy. That was the first revelation, and i counted three altogether.

The second was, that i have been happily listening to my open baffle speakers for nearly two years, without fully realising what they are capable of.
My combination of low (ish) powered SET amp and budget CD transport, makes some very pleasing sounds but not in the same way as Ians system. It will take another visit to establish where the main differences really are...

The third revelation, and no less controversial, is that we used 6mm twin and earth to hook up my speakers. It worked unbelievably well and even surprised a DIYer like myself.

For those who may be interested. the speaker drivers are Audio Nirvana STD 8 inch. Eminence Beta 15 inch bass.
A cheap low pass filter from Maplins in line with the bass..
A Mundorf Non-Polar cap before the FR driver to keep out any bass stuff below 150Hz. Also a resistor to match the FR unit to the bass.

As for the baffle, well its roughly 36 inches wide by 34 high.

Thats it.:smoking:

aquapiranha
14-11-2008, 00:04
Pics? you can;t leave me hanging like that! :)

alb
14-11-2008, 00:18
"Apres Chesterfest" thread. Post #13

I tried to post a link to this but i couldn't make it work.

John
14-11-2008, 07:43
The best open baffles I heard was at Vic's (Trans-FI) at his home near Bedford
Check out the link
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0907/bastanis_atlas.htm
Just great speakers that just play music with passion and grace Wish I had the room for them

Marco
14-11-2008, 09:05
Wow, John, thanks for the link. Me want!!! :stalks:

I LOVE the look of those, and the Baltic birch plywood finish. I also like the front driver arrangement and the idea of having active bass 'bins' at the back with a huge f*ck off 15-inch driver per side. I'm sure that would make for some 'interesting' sounds on the end of my system... :eyebrows:

It just shows though that the idea of using 'meaty' amplifiers and high efficiency speakers is a valid one, and that their use isn't solely intended for low power SET amps ;)

I don't understand the pricing structure, though:


Price:
1,300€ for the Atlas wood kit
3,400€ / $4,590for the Atlas kit (excluding baffles & cabinets)
5,200€ for fully assembled loudspeakers


So it's 5,200€ for them 'ready to go', but if you were to buy the kit and D.I.Y do you add the top two prices together, and if so, what about the baffles & cabinets, which are "excluded"? :scratch:

I would look at getting someone to build me a pair, or emulate the design, but if that wasn't possible then the 5,200€ asking price for fully assembled units, with the sale of my Spendors funding a good chunk of it, wouldn't be a problem :cool:

Marco.

Clive
14-11-2008, 11:32
Hi Marco,

Shipping finished units from Germany could be very expensive. Depending on the wood finish you want, getting the wood cut in the UK is a good route along with getting someone to finish the speakers off for you. This could include having a joiner prepare and assemble the wood (took me about 2 days). Attaching and wiring the drivers is not difficult but you may need to find someone else to do this for you.

Just a couple of extra points:

1) there is now the option for dipole bass units with 18 inch drivers, I prefer these to the 15 inch units but if you want more "impact" then possibly the 15 inch sealed units are the ones to go with (I will be using all 4!!).

2) using dsp on the bass amps brings incredible benefits, especially where the room in question is slightly problematic, as most UK domestic environments are. You can also then tailor the bass to taste once you've tamed the room.

Marco
14-11-2008, 12:03
Hi Clive,

Great advice there - so thanks for that!

Are you the chap who owns Bastanis and wrote the article on Enjoythemusic.com? I'd be very interested in coming to hear yours if that would be possible :)

Perhaps you could send me a PM and we'll take it from there?

Marco.

swampy
14-11-2008, 12:13
Check it out then:

This comment from Ali below is also significant, given he was one of the Owston crew who doesn't possess cloth ears and a serious attitude problem ;)


Marco.

Ali comes across as a real genuine guy. Very likeable person. I think most at the show are great but I am not fond of the old school boy club mentality to be honest. Nick has made it clear what is forum is for and fair enough I guess. It is his forum. I think some are from the old WAD forum days so these guys on Nicks forum have been at this game for many years now so would qualify as 'experienced old school'.

I don't have a problem with commercial gear. In-fact I have sold all my diy kits off and the best pre-amp I have had (after a few tweaks) is now a commercial one... Audio Symphonies Plus made in HK. Again, I was impressed by your turntable just like at Chester, esp playing that Krautrock track (Kraftwerk) but I am a major fan of Berlin school electronica and this falls close to that, Kraftwerk being Düsseldorf school style.

Anyway Marco... it makes a change someone else upsetting the status quo ;) I did it last time comparing Ali's Mr Liang 845 with Sams UR 845 !! Hmm she never came this time. I have learnt to keep my mouth shut now and don't bother commenting if it may be negative and I don't know the person well enough to know how they might take it.

Ali Tait
14-11-2008, 17:35
Thanks David,very kind of you to say so.I'd say the same of you. :)

Mike
14-11-2008, 17:54
Check it out then:

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=917&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

You want pages 9-13. Pay particular attention to Andrew Ivimey's post and his comments about the Copper amp (3rd last on page 10!) :mental:

This comment from Ali below is also significant, given he was one of the Owston crew who doesn't possess cloth ears and a serious attitude problem ;)



Indeed!!! And the sound was even better with the Copper amp in the same system earlier...

I'd appreciate your thoughts when you've read the thread and how you think I was treated, especially by some people I thought I knew.

Marco.

*Sigh*... Well, I wasn't there so I've no idea what anything sounded like. I missed out AGAIN!

You seem to have taken umbrage with the fact that some people didn't like the sound your amp made. Don't be so 'touchy' ya big gurls blouse! :eyebrows:

So some didn't like it.... so what! :confused:

Did you go to such considerable effort and expense to enjoy your system in your own home, or to impress others at a get-together?.... I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that one! ;)

Relax, enjoy, and be happy!

I don't go on AT much TBH as I find the place a little, err, I was going to say 'intimidating' but thats not the right word at all. I'm not sure exactly how to express it but suffice to say, I feel a bit out of my depth on there. If you see what I mean. I could go on but I don't wish to cause any offence to anyone.


Cheers.....

Ali Tait
14-11-2008, 18:39
Exactly Mike,you tell him! I've been saying the same thing.There is another issue though,in which he is justified in some of what he says,but it's a private matter and not for a public forum IMHO.

Mike,I'm sorry you couldn't make it,I was looking forward to meeting you.Maybe next time.Shame,coz you missed a great weekend.I do have some pics,but I need to resize them to post,and I'm too bloody knackered at the mo.I'll sort it over the weekend.

Mike
14-11-2008, 19:04
Well, Marco's a big boy and can look after himself.... My comments are just a 'gentle reminder'. :)

Yep, pity I wasn't able to make it, I was looking forward to meeting you and quite a few others. After kicking up a big fuss at work to get an on-call swap, the bloody car failed it's MOT! :doh:

Bums!

swampy
14-11-2008, 19:05
Glad you've now heard how much a box influences the sound Marco.I like my statics too much to go OB,but I'd never go back to a box speaker now.

Yes, you can hear the box once you have got used to a panel type speaker !! Even some OB's have the same box type colouration due to panel resonance esp those with very large side cheeks and/or part enclosed drivers although you may get more bottom extension. I failed miserably with my OB's. Got them to sound ok at a friends but sounded truly awful in my small room.

The only thing I don't like about statics is the difficult load and not easy to get dynamics of the same scale as a good OB.

Clive
14-11-2008, 19:28
I was chatting to Marco earlier, I recalled that at one on the AT sessions I'd been listening to WD speakers, they were ok, then some ESL57s were wheeled I found the sound so much better and having great similarity to my OB Altas - not the same but of the same ilk. I really struggle with box speakers now.

Marco
14-11-2008, 19:30
Guys (LOL :)),

It's not a case of me taking umbrage about someone not liking the sound of my amp, believe me, I couldn't give a flying f*ck what anyone thinks of the gear I use *PROVIDING* (and this is the key) that they are courteous and constructive with any criticism - this is basic manners and respect as far as I'm concerned – human qualities that are very important to me.

You don't turn round and tell someone that you wouldn't give their amp "house room"! Dislike something if you wish by all means, but keep it constructive. I wouldn't allow anyone to make comments like that here and I had hoped the person in charge of audio talk (you know who you are) would have taken a similar view and acted accordingly. I was very disappointed that wasn't the case, considering that him and I have met many times in person and I thought knew each other well. It seems that he's more concerned with appeasing the needs of his 'old boys' network' than in ensuring any sense of fairness and proper conduct :(

I don't think that Mr Ivimey's comments were constructive in any way; indeed I found them rude, spiteful, and disrespectful (I felt as if I was being 'paid back' for something I had done - although I'm mystified at what I'm supposed to have done to him...), and that was the problem, particularly when he was critically and conclusively judging the Copper amp with a pair of £350 AE floorstanders on the end! The fact is, as far as my amp is concerned, he hasn't got the slightest clue what he's talking about.

Anyway...let's move on to happier and more constructive things - I will have much to report tomorrow regarding OBs and SET amps in a domestic environment, as Steve (SPS) has kindly volunteered to bring his gear round to my place tomorrow afternoon and Clive has offered to let me hear his Bastanis, so exciting times are ahead! I will no doubt end up with a large pair of high efficiency OBs sooner rather than later, but the question is which ones? All will be revealed in due course. The Spendors are definitely on borrowed time :eyebrows:

Swampy has made some interesting remarks, which I will comment on later.

Marco.

Mike
14-11-2008, 19:37
Ah!....

Things are becoming clearer. You have 'crossed swords' with Mr I!!!!

I've been there. ;) I can elaborate if needs be, but there's little to be concerned about. Honestly. :trust:

He's actually quite harmless. :)

Marco
14-11-2008, 19:39
No doubt, but he needs to learn some manners.

Marco.

Ali Tait
14-11-2008, 19:44
Yep I'd agree there David,with the only caveat that I love the imaging I get from the statics.I was all set to build a copy of Nick's James D designed OB's,but ultimately found them slightly lacking in imaging compared to the statics.It's an important part of hi-fi for me.They do give great bass though!Also,if I want impact,my statics have woofers built into the base of each,which can be run with 200w Mosfet amps via an active crossover.I usually run them without though,as the panels alone are quite dynamic,certainly more so than any other static I've heard,except for the bigger brother of mine,the Acorn,as now used by Colin Topps ( He sold me my pair of ESL III's)

Mike
14-11-2008, 19:47
I've been pissed off with boxes for quite some time!

Something will have to be done! :exactly:

swampy
15-11-2008, 00:42
I like Dave H's horn speakers on his Mr Liang. They are not boxy sounding at all esp considering their large enclosure, mystical has also heard them a few times. I guess this is because the mid and tweeter are sealed horn drivers and only the large bass unit really uses the enclosure. Also they do not honk like I thought horns would. Marco... Worth a listen to some nice high efficiency horn speakers if you get the chance.

They don't have the shear clarity and height of the ML statics that I bought off him but they are more forgiving I guess as a result. Since I listen to mostly electronica and ambient the statics are a perfect speaker for that style of music. Synth pads and textures get separated and spaced out across the panel. Quite different from the sound firing from a point source like a small dome tweeter.

I have really scaled down my hifi these days. The speakers are the most expensive part of my system now and totally the opposite of what hifi mags recommend !! At one time my hifi value was about 5K. Minus the speakers it now worth about £50 :)

Marco
15-11-2008, 08:47
Hi Dave,

I'm up for listening to anything - I'm completely open-minded. My only stipulations, speaker-wise, are that they have to work in my room and produce the kind of sound I like, and that they aren't a 'box speaker'; simple really! :)

£50 hi-fi? Love it! :eyebrows:

Marco.

John
16-11-2008, 07:38
Hi Marco
I was speaking to Vic and he says Clive system was the best he heard so I am sure meeting with Clive will put you on the right track speaker wise hope you can get to hear his slatedeck 301 should be pure magic

Marco
16-11-2008, 10:28
Thanks for that, John. I'm looking forward to hearing Clive's Bastanis (and system in general).

It was a very interesting and educational evening last night with Steve's Lowthers and SET amp...

More later (or tomorrow, as today may be rather busy) :)

Marco.

Clive
16-11-2008, 10:32
This is building Marco's expectations to levels where he'll be disappointed when he comes over! My system works for me and Vic too but I know from experience that changes in amplification for instance can help if the sound isn't to an individual's taste. I had someone over who listened and very much like the sound via my 2W 45 SET and 8W 300B SET but preferred their Moon amp in the system. As this person is kind of relative I'm now stuck with building some Atlas speakers for them - believe me, they'd been hunting down the ideal speakers for years and Altas made them very happy.

Since Vic heard my system we've both been playing with DSP, he's kind of stopped now until I go over to visit with my measurement equipment. I'm now very much committed to the route of analogue purity 100Hz upwards but solidstate active bass manipulated by DSP to fix room acoustics / room modes.

Hopefully my preferences and approach should become clear for Marco next weekend!

Marco
16-11-2008, 10:42
Don't worry, Clive, I shall arrive with an open mind and no preconceptions - I have no choice otherwise because I have very little experience of OBs and SET amps :)

Steve's combo was tasty last night and ticked many of the necessary boxes, but I'll need to take some time to collate my thoughts properly and report the experience, and that may not happen today.

Marco.

John
16-11-2008, 10:51
Must admit want to go down Open Baffle route myself sometime in the future they do create magic if you can get the bass right

SteveTheShadow
16-11-2008, 11:53
After the Owston Meet I dismantled my Ruark subwoofers to get at the plate amps and went active dipole on the bass, using a 12 inch Eminence delta 12 driver
Here's the plate amp, fitted and connected up to the 12 inch Eminence bass unit.

http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/.Pictures/bafflerear.jpg

Finally the general view of the modded baffles in situ.

http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/.Pictures/genview.jpg
They are excellent sounding devices very tuneful in the bass and the lowish Qts (0.47) of the bass driver means that the baffles can be placed a bit closer to the wall without boom developing.

How they'd fare in the enthusiasts position http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif, I don't know but they work very nicely in my room thanks.

Unless you can afford the prices being charged these days for old Goodmans drivers, I reckon active dipole bass is the way to go with baffles, you avoid all the power sapping inductors on the bass drivers and get to tune the bass to compensate for the baffle rolloff. Meaning your baffle can be made compact (for a baffle of course)

Marco
16-11-2008, 13:26
Looking very nice, Steve. What difference have the mods made, then?

Unfortunately (for me at least) your speakers never got heard enough at Owston. I liked what they did in the Lenco-fronted system they were demonstrated in, but would have liked to have heard them in some other systems that were used with Steve's Lowthers later in the day, particularly with my Copper amp, which of course one wouldn't give house room to :eyebrows:

Hopefully Steve (SPS), after last night's session, will have arrived at a slightly different conclusion ;)

Those are lovely speakers of yours, though! :)

Marco.

SteveTheShadow
16-11-2008, 15:12
Hi Marco,

The big difference between these and the speakers you heard at Owston is the fact that the bass end is now, like the rest of the drive units, a dipole radiator. This has improved the bottom end significantly from what I had before with the subs.

With the 12 inch Eminence Delta 12 bass driver there is a greater degree of control and weight to the bass that the subs, in comparison, lacked. The knock-on effect of this is that images are much more firmly planted and textures at the low end are better portrayed. Also the speakers have improved their efficiency, becoming a lot more solid at low volume levels.

The subs were always a lash up and I had intended all along to put a proper bass driver in the baffles, which is why there was a large bare panel left below the Goodmans unit, in the older model.

If you go on to do a baffle yourself then active bass supplied by a solid state digital plate amp has to be the way forward at the low end.
You can neatly sidestep all the problems of a lack of bass extension from smaller baffles, simply by turning up the wick on the plate amp.

I have not heard Clive's Bastanis OBs but I reckon they will be quite an experience with their big active bass drivers.
I would certainly not want to try to do passive bass on a baffle unless it was just a two way system,
certainly not, now that I have experienced proper active dipole bass, instead of a couple of boom-boxes hidden round the back.

You can probably guess, from the pictures of my speakers, that their design was heavily influenced by Steve's baffles. He in turn was influenced by Gilbert Briggs' who was more interested in getting baffles to work in real rooms, than the more modern design diktat that you build your room around the speakers.
I think Steve's and my designs show both of us at any rate, that Briggs was spot on all those years ago.

Steve