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Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 11:10
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/20/future-magazines-close-sell

Should we care?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 11:13
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/20/future-magazines-close-sell

Should we care?

No!

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 11:37
No!

Oh come on Richard. No need to be shy. Tell it like you feel it!

Kind regards

Howard

sq225917
21-07-2011, 11:41
It's a real shame that magazine publishing houses don't seem to be either willing or able to embrace the internet age. In my day job I manage the marketing budget for a US sporting goods manufacturer. We advertise in about 30 print magazines and we also advertise in a handful of web only publications. From an advertisers point of view we get more reach and more imprints from the online magazines per dollar than we do for all but one of the print magazines. Surely there's a business case to be made for an online only periodical, frankly i'm amazed Critic hasn't gone that way already,.

Alex_UK
21-07-2011, 11:45
No!

I think we should all care - especially retailers and manufacturers - not necessarily for the demise of the magazine (although I personally enjoy it/them) but if the publisher is killing it off then that is for one reason only - they are not selling enough copies to make a profit at the sale price, and if they are not selling enough copies, there could be several underlying reasons -

1. There aren't enough people interested in hifi to buy the magazine any more
2. People generally haven't got enough spare cash to spend on their hifi related hobby, including the magazines
3. There aren't enough manufacturers/retailers placing adverts because they are feeling the pinch from 1 & 2 above...

Maybe you're bucking the trend Richard and business is booming for NVA, but I suspect something like this would be more wisely considered as a barometer of the state of the industry - may not be affecting you at the moment, but will you be able to swim against the tide forever?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 11:52
I think we should all care - especially retailers and manufacturers - not necessarily for the demise of the magazine (although I personally enjoy it/them) but if the publisher is killing it off then that is for one reason only - they are not selling enough copies to make a profit at the sale price, and if they are not selling enough copies, there could be several underlying reasons -

1. There aren't enough people interested in hifi to buy the magazine any more
2. People generally haven't got enough spare cash to spend on their hifi related hobby, including the magazines
3. There aren't enough manufacturers/retailers placing adverts because they are feeling the pinch from 1 & 2 above...

Maybe you're bucking the trend Richard and business is booming for NVA, but I suspect something like this would be more wisely considered as a barometer of the state of the industry - may not be affecting you at the moment, but will you be able to swim against the tide forever?

Magazines never survived on how many copies they sold, it is on how much advertising revenue they attract. The business model is that the cover price pays for the printing costs only, and anyway a vast majority of the cover price goes to the retailer, especially if it is W H Smith who ask for extra to stock it.

So manufacturers and retails are simply unwilling to buy advertising anymore QED magazine closes. So if it was important to them then they would buy it.

I have next to no overheads, and I have another source of income, so I don't even need to swim, let alone against the tide.

Audioman
21-07-2011, 11:54
I think we should all care - especially retailers and manufacturers - not necessarily for the demise of the magazine (although I personally enjoy it/them) but if the publisher is killing it off then that is for one reason only - they are not selling enough copies to make a profit at the sale price, and if they are not selling enough copies, there could be several underlying reasons -

1. There aren't enough people interested in hifi to buy the magazine any more
2. People generally haven't got enough spare cash to spend on their hifi related hobby, including the magazines
3. There aren't enough manufacturers/retailers placing adverts because they are feeling the pinch from 1 & 2 above...

Maybe you're bucking the trend Richard and business is booming for NVA, but I suspect something like this would be more wisely considered as a barometer of the state of the industry - may not be affecting you at the moment, but will you be able to swim against the tide forever?

There is still enough interest in hi-fi to support 2 or 3 magazines. The problem is HFC is up against better competition if you exclude WHF. Also a large publishing company has expensive overheads compared to those running World and HF News. The competition is just an editor with a few freelance contributors.

Macca
21-07-2011, 11:59
It used to be the case unitl quite recently that if you wanted to read about your hobby you bought a magazine or magazines. Now you can just log onto the internet - there is pretty much a forum for everything - multiple forums in many cases.

Most people don't buy a hi-fi mag because they are looking to buy a product and want a review, it is to pass the time and to read about the hobby.

So why pay £4.00 plus for a magazine? This had to happen eventually, it's just surprising how long it has taken really.

colinB
21-07-2011, 12:02
Not good for the trade when a magazine folds.
It improved in the last 5 years, i enjoyed its content but dont think there was enough content. Paying a fiver for a monthly i expect more than an hours read.
I also lost interest when Alan Sircom left and it became the Richard Black show.

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 12:06
I have next to no overheads, and I have another source of income, so I don't even need to swim, let alone against the tide.

I'm in a similar situation. People were sceptical when I became a one-brand retailer i.e. LFD. Bearing in mind they only make amps, phonostages, interconnects and speaker cables, it looked to many to be daft. Meanwhile LFD business is booming and it seems I have the lion's share of it. No threat to Sony though!

Thus I’m the only retailer I believe who chooses not to sell sources nor speakers.

Like you Richard I have other sources of income from my inventions.

Kind regards. Howard.


{Unauthorised advertising of a non-audio related business removed. Sorry, Howard -- Marco}

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 12:09
It used to be the case unitl quite recently that if you wanted to read about your hobby you bought a magazine or magazines. Now you can just log onto the internet - there is pretty much a forum for everything - multiple forums in many cases.

My not-for-profit audiophile blog has just passed the 90k page-impression threshold. On a month by month basis the average build is circa 2.2k page-impression, compound.

Regards. Howard

Macca
21-07-2011, 12:14
My not-for-profit audiophile blog has just passed the 90k page-impression threshold. On a month by month basis the average build is circa 2.2k page-impression, compound.

Regards. Howard

Sorry Howard I've no idea what that means?

I was quite chuffed to make 'Forum Quote of the Week' once though:)

Alex_UK
21-07-2011, 12:16
There is still enough interest in hi-fi to support 2 or 3 magazines. The problem is HFC is up against better competition if you exclude WHF. Also a large publishing company has expensive overheads compared to those running World and HF News. The competition is just an editor with a few freelance contributors.

Probably true, but I suspect I was not alone in buying all three when I made my pilgrimage into town to W H Smiths. So to agree with Martin's point - more people (including me) are turning to free online resources - I don't buy any of them any more - £150 a year is better spent elsewhere. I don't expect I'm the only one.

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 12:16
Surely there's a business case to be made for an online only periodical, frankly i'm amazed Critic hasn't gone that way already,.

I am indeed thinking about this rather more seriously now than I did last year. If I do it, then my blog http://not-boring-honestly.blogspot.com/ might metamorphose into a full-blown e-zine. The software to achieve this is (a) cheapish and (b) the learning curve is steep.

My business model, if I do this, will be innovative and break a lot of rules. And that's probably the main driver for me doing it. Regards. Howard

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 12:20
Sorry Howard I've no idea what that means?

I was quite chuffed to make 'Forum Quote of the Week' once though:)

Err, sorry. This statistic means that my reader-base grows by an average of 2,200 visitors per month measured over the preceding six months. The hope being that it will continue to do so. Regards. Howard.

Macca
21-07-2011, 12:22
Like you Richard I have other sources of income from my inventions. One of them can be seen here > http://www.2muchtalk.com/

Kind regards. Howard.

Interesting - they ought to make them compulsory for the public sector:lol: The savings would be astronomical.

Plus a few private companies I've worked for would certainly benefit too....

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 12:37
Interesting - they ought to make them compulsory for the public sector:lol: The savings would be astronomical.

Plus a few private companies I've worked for would certainly benefit too....

We offered it free of charge to the entire NHS at senior management level. They turned it down. The reasons would appall you.

So I'm going to submit my report re this to my local MP. Maybe he can kick arse?

Meanwhile the care and life-saving techniques I receive monthly at grass-roots level at the NHS is truly outstanding!

Macca
21-07-2011, 12:39
yep I deal with the NHS sometimes - the Doctors & Nurses are great the management and organization are a disgrace.

Sorry off topic a bit

Audioman
21-07-2011, 13:04
Probably true, but I suspect I was not alone in buying all three when I made my pilgrimage into town to W H Smiths. So to agree with Martin's point - more people (including me) are turning to free online resources - I don't buy any of them any more - £150 a year is better spent elsewhere. I don't expect I'm the only one.

My only regular buy is World with News if it's interesting. I realised buying them all was too expensive 20 years ago. Frankly I much prefer reading the printed version than the On-Line. You need a realy big screen to make this easy reading with comfortably large print. I do urge enthusiasts to buy one as we need to keep the remaining publications going except WHF which is a useless piece of AV tosh.

Spectral Morn
21-07-2011, 13:16
Sadly Hi-Fi Choice's re vamp a wee while ago took it imho too close to being another What Hi-Fi and since then I have not bought it. I do look forward to the yearly 'Collection' but even it since its revamp does not quite have the magic of the issues from the 80's and 90's.

I won't miss Choice but I will miss the Collection.

Re online magazines my own title does quite well month to month and I am pleased with the growth in readers; I pretty much have readers in most countries round the world though the bulk of them are in America, Europe and the UK. I think in the main, it is my in depth show reports that makes Adventures in High Fidelity Audio different to the print mags and a few of the online ones. Its a not for profit, no advertising title and a labour of love.


Regards D S D L

worthingpagan
21-07-2011, 14:15
Probably true, but I suspect I was not alone in buying all three when I made my pilgrimage into town to W H Smiths. So to agree with Martin's point - more people (including me) are turning to free online resources - I don't buy any of them any more - £150 a year is better spent elsewhere. I don't expect I'm the only one.

+1

DSJR
21-07-2011, 16:01
Is this thread turning into a free-for-all advertising section. Christ-on-a-bike, if Ashley James had gone on a quarter of the amount some have on here, he'd have been banned for life with no redress - oh, that's right, he is............. :sofa:

Marco
21-07-2011, 16:07
Indeed....

Remember, folks, that blatant advertising of one's blog, with links provided, (<cough>, Howard, <cough> ;)) is only permitted in the trade area.

Ta!

Marco.

hifi_dave
21-07-2011, 16:10
Are some people jumping the gun a bit here ?

Hi-Fi Choice is up for sale and not necessarily closing down.

Meanwhile, I have heard that another of our Hi-Fi mags has a circulation of just under 1200 per issue. How long before that one goes ?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 16:13
Hi-Fi Answers
Hi-Fi Sound
Popular Hi-Fi
What Hi-Fi
And the relatively newly acquired Gramophone.

And that is just Haymarket publishing - how many of them are still published - just the last two. Magazines come and go, but we are surely seeing the death knell now of paper publishing. The Sunday tabloids are showing reality, none of them make a profit and all of them are just egotists toys. Perhaps that will happen to Hi-Fi Rags, if we can find a rich enough hi-fi owning egotist :lolsign:

Does Abramovich or Lebedev like hi-fi ? or really any rich Russian oligarch will do.

DSJR
21-07-2011, 16:20
Are some people jumping the gun a bit here ?

Hi-Fi Choice is up for sale and not necessarily closing down.

Meanwhile, I have heard that another of our Hi-Fi mags has a circulation of just under 1200 per issue. How long before that one goes ?

And in the mid 90's, HFN was being slated as "only" having 12,000 sold per month compared to Gramophone's 80,000 or so..... At that point in history, WTF was selling around 50,000 copies per month I think.

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 17:32
Indeed....

Remember, folks, that blatant advertising of one's blog, with links provided, (<cough>, Howard, <cough> ;)) is only permitted in the trade area.

Ta!

Marco.

Yes. BIG and SINCERE apology re this. Didn't think. Am I forgiven yet?

Howard

Neil McCauley
21-07-2011, 17:37
Is this thread turning into a free-for-all advertising section. Christ-on-a-bike, if Ashley James had gone on a quarter of the amount some have on here, he'd have been banned for life with no redress - oh, that's right, he is............. :sofa:

It's a BLOG not a bloody business. You know - a FUN THING?

No ads

Not for profit!

Havent't I given enough stuff away on this site to warranty a tiny transgression? Take, take and take rather than give & take.

Okay. Always one isn't there? Of course there is.

Now VERY SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF!

Marco
21-07-2011, 17:41
Yes. BIG and SINCERE apology re this. Didn't think. Am I forgiven yet?


Mais bien sur, mon ami! :)

Any form of self-promotion, whether for financial gain or otherwise, is frowned upon in the wrong areas, dude.

Marco.

P.S Having just read your rant, which I've deleted, I think you need to calm down and stop over-reacting.

colinB
21-07-2011, 18:04
Sorry for the diplomacy if its misplaced but i have no intentions of buying a Benchmark DAC at the moment but im pleased Howard provided a link to the interview with its designer. I found it very interesting.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 18:05
I'm not bothered in a sense - I am never interested in new gear because I don't go for depreciation and too wary of marketing hype, I like the burdon of both to be borne by others before I get involved.

The only thing is with online mags is how the hell will I find any info on today's high end when it finally becomes affordable in 20 years time? Most likely all references will disappear for ever off the face of the digital earth unless we all archive the pages now! Could be a good project, an automatic RSS-fed archiving scheme from all the hifi sites.

No-one will know anything about rare, low volume boutique gear at all! Basically you won't be able to sell this stuff in the future because no-one will believe your assertion of it's original high price nor quality.

Still, means Ebay, if still existing then, will be awash with amazing gear that no-one will take a risk on..

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 18:09
The only thing is with online mags is how the hell will I find any info on today's high end when it finally becomes affordable in 20 years time? Most likely all references will disappear for ever off the face of the digital earth unless we all archive the pages now! Could be a good project, an automatic RSS-fed archiving scheme from all the hifi sites.

No-one will know anything about rare, low volume boutique gear at all! Basically you won't be able to sell this stuff in the future because no-one will believe your assertion of it's original high price nor quality.

Still, means Ebay, if still existing then, will be awash with amazing gear that no-one will take a risk on..

Two things

1 Google is your friend
2 Ask for users on all the forums

Jerry will take the risk, and then tell you all about it :ner:

Haselsh1
21-07-2011, 18:12
No bloody way would I buy that mag with the price it had on the cover. Plus, what can you learn from a magazine ? Surely our hobby is about using your ears ?

Marco
21-07-2011, 18:16
The simple fact is that forums such as this, populated largely by knowledgeable and experienced people, are a much better resource for instantaneous, useful (and commercially unbiased) information for audio enthusiasts, than ANY hi-fi magazine is today, unless you're simply interested in gaining middle-leg protuberance at the 'badge-fi' in 'Plush' ;)

Times have changed, and in this respect, for the better. Enthusiast-lead forums, such as AoS, are the future! :)

Marco.

chelsea
21-07-2011, 18:28
I think a lot of you are missing out on what the next generation will do.

For most of us we were lucky enough to be able to go into hi fi shops as youngsters and dribble over some of the gear.

Those shops will be gone very soon i feel with a lot of places already down to richer sounds.

Why will youngsters be bothered about a quality set up if they can't even look at one let alone read about them.

I very much doubt if they will bother going on a forum to read up.

It will all come down to whatever richer sounds and tescos sell for 99% of the population in the next few years.

Marco
21-07-2011, 18:39
I do largely agree, Stuart, but that only applies to the undiscerning general public, as far as quality audio equipment is concerned. We cannot realistically hope to influence that market. And such people were never the target audience for hi-fi magazines, even in their heyday.


I very much doubt if they will bother going on a forum to read up.


They don't need to (those who are interested in using quality audio equipment), as discussions on AoS show up regularly on all the top search engines, and almost everyone these days uses the Internet....

Where do you think most of our new members come from? ;)


Why will youngsters be bothered about a quality set up if they can't even look at one let alone read about them.


Hopefully, by the likes of us influencing the music-listening standards of our kids. It *can* be done! :)

Marco.

chelsea
21-07-2011, 18:53
I do largely agree, Stuart, but that only applies to the undiscerning general public, as far as quality audio equipment is concerned. We cannot realistically hope to influence that market. And such people were never the target audience for hi-fi magazines, even in their heyday.



They don't need to (those who are interested in using quality audio equipment), as discussions on AoS show up all the time on all the top search engines, and almost everyone these days uses the Internet....

Where do you think most of our new members come from? ;)

Marco.

Thing is marco if there are know shops how will kids ever see good quality stuff.

Unless there dads or friends have a good system i can't see how they will know it even exists.

I firmly believe we are the last generation of hi fi peeps.:(

Wakefield Turntables
21-07-2011, 18:56
HIFI CHOICE,

Well what can I say, I wont miss it.

Marco
21-07-2011, 19:03
Thing is marco if there are know shops how will kids ever see good quality stuff.

Unless there dads or friends have a good system i can't see how they will know it even exists.

I firmly believe we are the last generation of hi fi peeps.:(

I know where you're coming from, dude, but I disagree. I think that there will always be an interest in quality audio equipment, albeit a minority one. Our job is to ensure that that minority is continually catered for and kept alive.

As one very small example, I'd bet that Alex UK's "avatar" will grow up not only to love music, but value how well it is reproduced by a quality hi-fi system - and that'll be thanks to what he's doing now to educate her accordingly :)

How many more of us here with kids (who will form the next generation) are doing their bit to the same extent?

I also believe that there will continue to be quality hi-fi equipment available to buy, for those who want it for many years to come, but it won't be available from shops on the high street - it will come from on-line specialist shops on Internet websites, and of course, eBay.

Marco.

ursus262
21-07-2011, 19:07
I am really shocked. My life won't be the same again without my Hi Fi Choice, as it was a good read.

Puffin
21-07-2011, 19:32
I'd bet that Alex UK's "avatar" will grow up not only to love music, but value how well it is reproduced by a quality hi-fi system - and that'll be thanks to what he's doing now to educate her accordingly :)

How many more of us here with kids (who will form the next generation) are doing their bit to the same extent?
Marco.

I have two grown up children, one male, one female. The female listens to music on her iphone, the male nicked a lot of kit off me but is not into hifi, only freeloading!!!

They have both seen and heard all the hifi kit I have had over the years and it has not made one blind bit of difference. Alex's daughter is likely to follow the latest trend and want a nice pink "eyeclone" or whatever, regardless of sound quality. it's a different generation.

Marco
21-07-2011, 20:05
Perhaps, Rob, but perhaps not. All we can do though is *try* :)

Quite often, the interests that kids have can be shaped by those of their parents, although my dad wasn't into hi-fi in the slightest, nor indeed music to any great extent. In that respect, I probably took after my uncle.

I did, however, grow up to share my dad's passion for air-rifle (and clay pigeon) shooting, and for a while took that to quite a serious level, in terms of entering competitions, etc...

How many of us here obtained our interest in hi-fi and music from our parents or members of our family? I know that things have changed, but it's not impossible that we could also influence our kids too, in that respect, to *some* degree, and thus do our bit to try and keep our hobby alive.

Marco.

keiths
21-07-2011, 20:13
How many of us here obtained our interest in hi-fi and music from our parents?

Not me. All my parents had when I was young was a 'Bush' record player with a (BSR?) autochanger with amp and speaker built in (marginally upmarket 'Dancette') and a bunch of 'K-Tel' LPs. My hi-fi and music interest came via my cousin - so 'peer influence' rather than parental.

chelsea
21-07-2011, 20:26
Peer influence.

Alex_UK
21-07-2011, 20:46
Well, Avatar already has most of a vinyl system waiting in the wings, but whether she will actually want it is a different matter! Hifi and music is no different to anything else - all you can do is expose them too it, and leave them to make up their own minds. I agree with Stuart, though - very hard to fight against peer pressure, but then no reason why kids can't enjoy "proper" hifi and an iPod - I do. :)

Pete The Cat
21-07-2011, 20:52
Hi-Fi Answers
Hi-Fi Sound
Popular Hi-Fi
What Hi-Fi
And the relatively newly acquired Gramophone.

And that is just Haymarket publishing - how many of them are still published - just the last two.

Hi-Fi Answers has closed ?!@#? I've read up to October '87 now, please say it ain't so... ;)

Pete

colinB
21-07-2011, 20:52
I didnt get into hifi until i was 30. The aspiration isnt the same as it was.
Plus a lot of young people i knew with a sound system were students blowing their grant check down Richer Sounds. Not much chance of that now.

Marco
21-07-2011, 21:24
Well, Avatar already has most of a vinyl system waiting in the wings, but whether she will actually want it is a different matter! Hifi and music is no different to anything else - all you can do is expose them too it, and leave them to make up their own minds.

Precisely!

So how many of us here with kids old enough, I wonder, are exposing them to our hobby, in the way Alex has indicated?

And how many haven't even bothered trying because "it's a different generation", or because of some other excuse (and I'm not referring to you here, Rob)?

Defeatism or apathy never were the catalysts for achievement! ;)

Marco.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 21:26
Two things

1 Google is your friend
2 Ask for users on all the forums

Jerry will take the risk, and then tell you all about it :ner:

Neither help unfortunately, even today, when needing to quickly research gear on Ebay - briefest of mentions in hifi news from feb '89 are all I go on sometimes.

Try Googling old gear, even stuff that not that rare - nothing comes up, no opinions, unless it's over hyped and over-priced. Anything non-mainstream gets a bit drowned out.

Ask on forums - can wait weeks before a reply on rare stuff and you don't want to alert people to the auction either...

Without my collection of every Hifi News from 70's - 2000 I wouldn't be able to work out a lot of the stuff I see on ebay.. Would like to expand that to Hifi Choice and Hifi Review etc but Emporium Hifi has stuffed that by flooding Ebay with all their magazines at £4 minimum and so no-one now sells their collections as one lot anymore.

And forums delete years old posts, online magazines will go off line taking all the reviews with them etc etc etc

You need hard copies for any kind of longer term information - all there in the old magazines.

Lodgesound
21-07-2011, 21:30
When I was 2 years old the guy who lived next door to us had a reel to reel machine - I used to sit on the floor in his lounge and watch the reels go round and listen to whatever - my mother had to come round and almost drag me away for dinner....

When I was 6 some neighbours gave me an old Sony reel to reel machine -used to love it - distmantled it, serviced it and learnt how it worked. I was 7 when I was given an old PYE Black Box and connected the output of the reel to reel to it's amplifier's input to get a better sound.

My dad brought a separates system when I was 8 - fairly modest but it did sound good. I told my mother that I wanted to work in a job operating tape recorders when I was older - she said not to be ridiculous and that no such job existed.

Ten years later I landed a job at the BBC as a Recording Operator running 2" and 1" videotape recorders. I heard my first decent HiFi when I was 15 - I was 23 when I aquired my first pair of BBC LS 5/8 speakers. By 33 I was considered superflous as I was too old (I made the mistake of going into London post production houses - the biggest waste of my working life to date - I wasted nearly 12 years there). Made redundant on my 40th Birthday as my skills were no longer of any use.

My influence was my dad listening to music which spread to me - I now own several broadcast tape machines and a fairly decent monitoring setup and recently dumped or gave away much of my spare equipment. I still love recorded music but fear that it just does'nt play the same part in people's lives that it once used to. I have many personal theories as to why this is so but I think that the introduction of DVD's and how cheap they became played a large part in turning films into a throw-away medium which has done incredible damage to the recorded music industry and thus the HiFi industry. In my time in broadcasting I saw technology change in ways I could not have possibly imagined it would to the point where it now requires absolutely no skilled technical operators at all.

I sincerely hope that you are right Marco and do believe that a once quite large industry will shrink to "White Dwarf" levels - very small, very dense and very specialised for those who still love music as the members of this forum do.

For my part I can no longer make ends meet working within a formerly reasonably well paid industry and although I still do a job within it am about to study and hopefully qualify in Gas and Heating engineering.

Please feel free to delete or move this if you feel it's too off-topic Marco - I was inspired by the whole "passing on to our kids" thing (I never had any myself).

These magazines are very sadly feeling the effects of a very much more serious decline. I believe that the current model for downloading / selling music is fundamentally flawed - you only have to look at the boom in vintage audio equipment and records to see that. People STILL want to own and collect the physical asset - you cannot get excited over a piece of software but you can over a marvellous piece of engineering or some lovely cover art.

Somehow files and the whole download thing seem to be sucking the life out of the industry and out of the buying public.

I would love to see it change.

Marco
21-07-2011, 21:31
Try Googling old gear, even stuff that not that rare - nothing comes up, no opinions.


Not true, Nat. Try Googling for vintage Tannoys, Celestions, TDA1541-based CDPs, NOS valves, Goldring G800 and M3D cartridges, and a multitude of other vintage gear that gets discussed here in detail all the time, and that regularly pops up on Google! ;)

Marco.

Marco
21-07-2011, 21:34
When I was 2 years old the guy who lived next door to us had a reel to reel machine - I used to sit on the floor in his lounge and watch the reels go round and listen to whatever - my mother had to come round and almost drag me away for dinner....

When I was 6 some neighbours gave me an old Sony reel to reel machine -used to love it - distmantled it, serviced it and learnt how it worked. I was 7 when I was given an old PYE Black Box and connected the output of the reel to reel to it's amplifier's input to get a better sound.

My dad brought a separates system when I was 8 - fairly modest but it did sound good. I told my mother that I wanted to work in a job operating tape recorders when I was older - she said not to be ridiculous and that no such job existed.

Ten years later I landed a job at the BBC as a Recording Operator running 2" and 1" videotape recorders. I heard my first decent HiFi when I was 15 - I was 23 when I aquired my first pair of BBC LS 5/8 speakers. By 33 I was considered superflous as I was too old (I made the mistake of going into London post production houses - the biggest waste of my working life to date - I wasted nearly 12 years there). Made redundant on my 40th Birthday as my skills were no longer of any use.

My influence was my dad listening to music which spread to me - I now own several broadcast tape machines and a fairly decent monitoring setup and recently dumped or gave away much of my spare equipment. I still love recorded music but fear that it just does'nt play the same part in people's lives that it once used to. I have many personal theories as to why this is so but I think that the introduction of DVD's and how cheap they became played a large part in turning films into a throw-away medium which has done incredible damage to the recorded music industry and thus the HiFi industry. In my time in broadcasting I saw technology change in ways I could not have possibly imagined it would to the point where it now requires absolutely no skilled technical operators at all.

I sincerely hope that you are right Marco and do believe that a once quite large industry will shrink to "White Dwarf" levels - very small, very dense and very specialised for those who still love music as the members of this forum do.

For my part I can no longer make ends meet working within a formerly reasonably well paid industry and although I still do a job within it am about to study and hopefully qualify in Gas and Heating engineering.

Please feel free to delete or move this if you feel it's too off-topic Marco - I was inspired by the whole "passing on to our kids" thing (I never had any myself).

These magazines are very sadly feeling the effects of a very much more serious decline. I believe that the current model for downloading / selling music is fundamentally flawed - you only have to look at the boom in vintage audio equipment and records to see that. People STILL want to own and collect the physical asset - you cannot get excited over a piece of software but you can over a marvellous piece of engineering or some lovely cover art.

Somehow files and the whole download thing seem to be sucking the life out of the industry and out of the buying public.

I would love to see it change.

Brilliant post, Stewart! :clap:

Marco.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 21:35
Precisely!

So how many of us here with kids old enough, I wonder, are exposing them to our hobby, in the way Alex has indicated?

And how many haven't even bothered trying because "it's a different generation", or because of some other excuse (and I'm not referring to you here, Rob)?

Defeatism or apathy never were the catalysts for achievement! ;)

Marco.

Fully agree there.

I've never been in a proper hifi shop (other than recently when in Japan) - I got my interest in hifi from friend's dads gear, not even my own dad's gear.

Then I realised it was readily available without having to go to bootsales or search loot like them - ebay came along and it all passed under my own nose in the comfort of my own home!

nat8808
21-07-2011, 22:02
Not true, Nat. Try Googling for vintage Tannoys, Celestions, TDA1541-based CDPs, NOS valves, Goldring G800 and M3D cartridges, and a multitude of other vintage gear that gets discussed here in detail all the time, and that regularly pops up on Google! ;)

Marco.

Obviously depends exactly what it is but lots of times I've been thwarted..

One current item - some Jordan Watts Acoustic speaker Ive recently bought JHK5Ms I think they are. No mention anywhere of their 90s revival range on the internet: JHK1, JHK2, JHK5, JHK10. No reply even from Ted Jordan when I've emailed his site..

Only references are an early 90s copy of Audiophile and amongst the list of available gear in the middle of a '94 Hifi Choice.

Have the odd copy too of the American mag The Absolute Sound - try googling some of the gear in there just draws a blank too.

These briefly great and quickly forgotten items (low production volume, poor availability) are the hidden jems and bargains of the hifi world IMHO simply because no-one can find info on them and so sellers and buyers alike don't know what things are.. It can be great!

If the correct model, my Jordan Watts were £5500 speakers in '94 yet cost me £225 cos I guess no-one wanted to take a risk and they need a little bit of work - simply because there's no info around on them other than in my mags.. (OK, they are really garish in a fake blue marble finish!)

Of course there are mags like Gramaphone and Stereophile that have excellent archives!

Marco
21-07-2011, 22:08
Yup, s'ok, I get your point, and to an extent, you're right :)

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 22:12
Obviously depends exactly what it is but lots of times I've been thwarted..

One current item - some Jordan Watts Acoustic speaker Ive recently bought JHK5Ms I think they are. No mention anywhere of their 90s revival range on the internet: JHK1, JHK2, JHK5, JHK10. No reply even from Ted Jordan when I've emailed his site..

Only references are an early 90s copy of Audiophile and amongst the list of available gear in the middle of a '94 Hifi Choice.

Have the odd copy too of the American mag The Absolute Sound - try googling some of the gear in there just draws a blank too.

These briefly great and quickly forgotten items (low production volume, poor availability) are the hidden jems and bargains of the hifi world IMHO simply because no-one can find info on them and so sellers and buyers alike don't know what things are.. It can be great!

If the correct model, my Jordan Watts were £5500 speakers in '94 yet cost me £225 cos I guess no-one wanted to take a risk and they need a little bit of work - simply because there's no info around on them other than in my mags.. (OK, they are really garish in a fake blue marble finish!)

Of course there are mags like Gramaphone and Stereophile that have excellent archives!

So have you written about them or anything else difficult to find so the spiders and bots can chase after them. Google and the others are hungry, so feed them.

nat8808
21-07-2011, 22:21
Yup, s'ok, I get your point, and to an extent, you're right :)

Marco.

:lol: I know when I'm being told I'm rambling!

nat8808
21-07-2011, 22:27
So have you written about them or anything else difficult to find so the spiders and bots can chase after them. Google and the others are hungry, so feed them.

Normally I don't have any opinion on things in verbal form.. Most likely to say "thought they were ok" or "nothing special" but that's it..

Not much of a transcriber in that sense unfortunately and then start to doubt what I'm saying anyway as if I'm falling into the trap of copying the usual hifi ramblings and syntax..

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 22:36
Normally I don't have any opinion on things in verbal form.. Most likely to say "thought they were ok" or "nothing special" but that's it..

Not much of a transcriber in that sense unfortunately and then start to doubt what I'm saying anyway as if I'm falling into the trap of copying the usual hifi ramblings and syntax..

A spider or bot don't care what you say as long as you say it, and more importantly give it some nice product proper nouns or initials to feed on, like - NVA - NVA - NVA - NVA - NVA............... :eyebrows:

Marco
21-07-2011, 22:40
...designed by a dafty for dafties, designed by a dafty for dafties, designed by a dafty for dafties, designed by a dafty for dafties, designed by a dafty for dafties, designed by a dafty for dafties....

:lol: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 22:46
Too late that is a new post, it wont link it :ner:

Marco
21-07-2011, 22:50
I can tack it onto yours very easily, shweety! :ner: :bum:

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 22:54
I can tack it onto yours very easily, shweety! :ner: :bum:

Marco.

You sir, are a dastardly bounder and cad too boot!

Marco
21-07-2011, 23:18
Here, oggle at the beautiful village in Tuscany where my family come from, to take your mind off of it:


http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/876/a225664.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/121/a225664.jpg/) http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1660/bargahomeitalianrentals.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/bargahomeitalianrentals.jpg/)


http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1615/a974468.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/a974468.jpg/) http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8795/a974470.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/a974470.jpg/)

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/740/a974473.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/a974473.jpg/)



Even nicer than Wrexham or Glasgow! One day, you might get an invite to stay in our villa ;)

:goodnight:

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 23:31
Looks a bit like Scunthorpe :sofa:

Thing Fish
22-07-2011, 00:11
I used to like HiFi World...:whistle:

HiFi choice was always second choice so I wont miss it if it doesn't sell.

Spectral Morn
22-07-2011, 01:07
My love of music came from my Dad, who played music to me as a baby and then we listened to music as a family, when I got a bit older; Top of the Pops on a Sunday afternoon, with us camped round the music-centre. I then listened to the radio and got really into music so by the time I left school early 80's I was well and truly hooked.

The HiFi bug came from a good college mate who had a Philips CD player, Musical Fidelity A1 amplifier and Tannoy Mercury speakers. I had several old music centres + one I was bought for Christmas (still have it lol), but his system was fantastic, so much better. It wasn't until the late 80's that I bought my own gear and the rest is history.

Loved the old mags, depth to reviews and I always had a high level of anticipation/excitement waiting for the new issues to hit the newsagent but alas not really any more. I do look forward to Stereophile still but that is about it.


Regards D S D L

Marco
22-07-2011, 06:34
Looks a bit like Scunthorpe :sofa:

....on acid! :eyebrows:

Marco.

WOStantonCS100
22-07-2011, 08:34
My "iPod aware" daughter, almost a teenager, has repeatedly asked me for one thing for the past two years... ...a turntable. :)

I might even get her one of them there shnazzy new green Project Debut III's. She can work her way up to a 1200 from there. :eyebrows:

Marco
22-07-2011, 09:04
Lol... Your daughter has class :respect:

Good man, Biff - that's what I'd like to see more of! :)

Marco.

bigmoog
26-07-2011, 14:40
I remember vey fondly the daze, when I would buy all the HIFI mags (including flat response and hifi review - used to line the cat litter tray - *joking*). the massive decline has been sad to see, but times change. If we are left with a few enthusiast printed mags like HFW and HFN then all well and good, they can run parallel to the online offering. Not surprised HFC is going to the wall....and as long as I dont read any thing at all by mr steward, I will be a happy music fan:stalks:


first post in a while, as me was busy upgrading my stereophonic music reproduction equipment :cool:

Barry
26-07-2011, 14:48
I remember vey fondly the daze, when I would buy all the HIFI mags (including flat response and hifi review - used to line the cat litter tray - *joking*). The massive decline has been sad to see, but times change. If we are left with a few enthusiast printed mags like HFW and HFN then all well and good, they can run parallel to the online offering. Not surprised HFC is going to the wall....and as long as I dont read any thing at all by Mr Steward, I will be a happy music fan:stalks:


First post in a while, as me was busy upgrading my stereophonic music reproduction equipment :cool:

Hi Jonathan,

It has been a case of "long time, no hear". What are these upgrades? Do tell!

Regards

bigmoog
26-07-2011, 14:57
Hi Jonathan,

It has been a case of "long time, no hear". What are these upgrades? Do tell!

Regards


not really upgrades, but yet another decca cartridge, another 103 wot I am going to modify into a wood body. new fishing wire for my acoustic solid chrome monstrosity, a new line pre amp (Icon), very nice indeed......just awaiting arrival of some rega (!!!!) floorstanders to try out:) as I have been impressed with the RS3 and 5.

Barry
26-07-2011, 15:03
Which model Decca is it? We wants to see pictures! :)

bigmoog
26-07-2011, 15:07
Which model Decca is it? We wants to see pictures! :)

its a supergold, I picked up for £100. needs a retip and calibration.....its going into a new pod I had made. When I get time I will post photographic representations.

I just love the excitement of a decca install and tweaking to get to sound 'right', its a thrill I never tire of.

>>>>>BM exits to therapy>>>>>>:eyebrows:

Folkboy
26-07-2011, 15:31
^^^ At first I thought that was a incredibly impressive kit list, but as I read on I'm not so sure...

DSJR
26-07-2011, 22:24
its a supergold, I picked up for £100. needs a retip and calibration.....its going into a new pod I had made. When I get time I will post photographic representations.

I just love the excitement of a decca install and tweaking to get to sound 'right', its a thrill I never tire of.

>>>>>BM exits to therapy>>>>>>:eyebrows:


And wot yer gonna play on the LP spinner then??????? :ner:

I keep thinking it's time to pass the Thorens 125 on and then I play another LP on it and change me mind - that Microscanner is fuggin' wonderful and tracks properly too :eek:

Yiangos
27-07-2011, 07:31
I had a good laugh qhen reading the post.Why should we care? What Hi-Fi and Hi-Fi Choice are probably the worst mags ever.I know there are pll who disagree with me but that is my opinion.As the fellow audiophile above said,i remember the day when i used to buy all hi-fi magazines but nowdays thingd are different.The only magazines i buy is hi-fi plus,hi-fi world and hi-fi news and not because i trust their reviewers but because they have good articles.I remember a certain reviewer 1-2 years ago,wrote an article that covered 2 issues explaining why reviewers end up with different conclusions regarding the same equipment blaming things on the room,setup etc.If this is the case,why we even bother reading magazines if the reviewers more-or-less tell us not to trusy their judgments???? LOL

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 10:30
I had a good laugh qhen reading the post.Why should we care? What Hi-Fi and Hi-Fi Choice are probably the worst mags ever.I know there are pll who disagree with me but that is my opinion.As the fellow audiophile above said,i remember the day when i used to buy all hi-fi magazines but nowdays thingd are different.The only magazines i buy is hi-fi plus,hi-fi world and hi-fi news and not because i trust their reviewers but because they have good articles.I remember a certain reviewer 1-2 years ago,wrote an article that covered 2 issues explaining why reviewers end up with different conclusions regarding the same equipment blaming things on the room,setup etc.If this is the case,why we even bother reading magazines if the reviewers more-or-less tell us not to trusy their judgments???? LOL

The simple reason why you should care is What Hi-Fi and Hi-Fi Choice are the largest and (now) second-largest selling titles in the sector. If you include Home Cinema Choice and the other two 'AV' titles that are currently in the cross-hairs, you end up with a "Hi-Fi and AV" magazine sector that goes from a maximum of eight titles to a maximum of four, if the "Future Four" end up being closed. That means the 'Hi-Fi and AV' sector in the magazine rack ceases to be as important a sector, the sector is potentially dropped from a greater number of WH Smiths category stores (WHS qualifies its stores alphabetically, with 'A' being the largest; by the time you get to the back of the A-Z, the store has strict limits imposed on what it can and cannot stock).

In short, if the whole sector suddenly shrinks by half, you'll find it harder to get your copies of Plus, World and News in branches of Smiths.

It would seem like we have the most to gain from HFC's troubles. We could potentially pick up readers and advertisers if the magazine did not sell to another company. The reality is very different.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 10:47
The simple reason why you should care is What Hi-Fi and Hi-Fi Choice are the largest and (now) second-largest selling titles in the sector. If you include Home Cinema Choice and the other two 'AV' titles that are currently in the cross-hairs, you end up with a "Hi-Fi and AV" magazine sector that goes from a maximum of eight titles to a maximum of four, if the "Future Four" end up being closed. That means the 'Hi-Fi and AV' sector in the magazine rack ceases to be as important a sector, the sector is potentially dropped from a greater number of WH Smiths category stores (WHS qualifies its stores alphabetically, with 'A' being the largest; by the time you get to the back of the A-Z, the store has strict limits imposed on what it can and cannot stock).

In short, if the whole sector suddenly shrinks by half, you'll find it harder to get your copies of Plus, World and News in branches of Smiths.

It would seem like we have the most to gain from HFC's troubles. We could potentially pick up readers and advertisers if the magazine did not sell to another company. The reality is very different.

The reality is we don't need you any more. The publishing industry has fed off the enthusiast for too long. Who pays for the advertising budgets of hi-fi companies, us! who pays your salaries and overheads, us! as it becomes part of the price equipment is sold for in the shops. So even if you don't buy a mag you still end up paying for them. In the past you were needed, now you are becoming a complete irrelevance, on-line does your job for free, so either die quietly or transfer to being on line. No longer can you (collectively) dictate what is stocked and what sells.

Neil McCauley
27-07-2011, 11:05
The reality is we don't need you any more. The publishing industry has fed off the enthusiast for too long. Who pays for the advertising budgets of hi-fi companies, us! who pays your salaries and overheads, us! as it becomes part of the price equipment is sold for in the shops. So even if you don't buy a mag you still end up paying for them. In the past you were needed, now you are becoming a complete irrelevance, on-line does your job for free, so either die quietly or transfer to being on line. No longer can you (collectively) dictate what is stocked and what sells.

+1, and then some.

Meanwhile, while HiFi Plus continue to publish anything re Nordost and/or anything by or about the previous editor, it is my belief that credibility with the buying public will remain at rock bottom. The mud stuck, and the smears after futile efforts to remove them are still clearly visible. Simple as that.

Alan, you are a fine communicator but (a) you were handed a poison chalice and (b) your publication has as much relevance today as a slide-rule in theoretical astrophysics i.e. zero.

There are a hard core of potential advertisers – of which I’m one – who wouldn’t place an ad in your publication even if it were free. Appearing in 'Plus' is axiomatically to support the magazine and frankly that's an embarrassment I don't need. Your target market is diminishing and to many of us, is increasingly irrelevant to our business models. Your publication seems to be in denial of the economic conditions out here.

If you took the time to engage with those retailers who have an embargo on your publication then you might find something of benefit. For me though, even that would be too little and too late.

Sincerely

Howard

tannoy man
27-07-2011, 11:57
I have two grown up children, one male, one female. The female listens to music on her iphone, the male nicked a lot of kit off me but is not into hifi, only freeloading!!!

They have both seen and heard all the hifi kit I have had over the years and it has not made one blind bit of difference. Alex's daughter is likely to follow the latest trend and want a nice pink "eyeclone" or whatever, regardless of sound quality. it's a different generation.

My experience has been different, my son is 19 and is passionate about music, he loves his Iphone and Grado SR 80's but is an active music buyer of both CD's
and Vinyl. His Vinyl collection stands at about 25 new Discs which he takes great pride in, enjoying the actual feel, physicality and sound quality of the Records.
This is not something I pushed him towards, in fact I actively tried to discourage him from going down this route

Alex_UK
27-07-2011, 12:12
The reality is we don't need you any more. The publishing industry has fed off the enthusiast for too long. Who pays for the advertising budgets of hi-fi companies, us! who pays your salaries and overheads, us! as it becomes part of the price equipment is sold for in the shops. So even if you don't buy a mag you still end up paying for them. In the past you were needed, now you are becoming a complete irrelevance, on-line does your job for free, so either die quietly or transfer to being on line. No longer can you (collectively) dictate what is stocked and what sells.

But equally, Richard the manufacturers websites, sponsorship/corporate events, shows etc. (as well as online advertising or magazine or paper advertising in non-hifi publications) are still paid for by the customer, whether you read, visit or benefit from them or not. It's just business - whatever industry, surely?

And don't forget, you yourself have bemoaned the "flavours of the month" that the online community promotes. How is that any different in principal to a 5-star magazine review which drives everyone to a product?

Joe
27-07-2011, 12:41
Not me. All my parents had when I was young was a 'Bush' record player with a (BSR?) autochanger with amp and speaker built in (marginally upmarket 'Dancette') and a bunch of 'K-Tel' LPs. My hi-fi and music interest came via my cousin - so 'peer influence' rather than parental.

My experience was similar. In fact my parents didn't actually own a record player until I was in my teens, and only owned a couple of LPs.

My cousin introduced me to music, but I can't honestly say how I got into hifi.

Joe
27-07-2011, 12:45
Precisely!

So how many of us here with kids old enough, I wonder, are exposing them to our hobby, in the way Alex has indicated?


I have two daughters. They are not interested in hifi in any way, shape or form. Their music 'lives' on their iPods and computers.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 12:54
But equally, Richard the manufacturers websites, sponsorship/corporate events, shows etc. (as well as online advertising or magazine or paper advertising in non-hifi publications) are still paid for by the customer, whether you read, visit or benefit from them or not. It's just business - whatever industry, surely?

And don't forget, you yourself have bemoaned the "flavours of the month" that the online community promotes. How is that any different in principal to a 5-star magazine review which drives everyone to a product?

Well I also have to feed my wife's QVC addiction so that is part of my costs :(

That for me is a necessity, magazine advertising is not, and is not for more and more, so like the dinosaur the mags have had their day. Reality is, times move on.

All flavours of the month have a negative effect in the long run, but forum ones are far more acceptable than magazine ones. At least on forums we are talking about opinion, on magazines we are often talking about advertising budgets or perks or jobs as Howard is referring to.

Now if any of these hi-fi publishing houses had any sense they would make Marco an offer he couldn't refuse (not in the mafia sense :eek:) and buy this forum and attach an on line magazine to it and appoint Marco as publisher and editor. I doubt he would accept as it immediately gives the evil profit and trade motive to it, and advertising pressure would come in. BUT it shouldn't and in the future people will see, as exampled by the mags, if you lose your credibility you have lost it - full stop! Editorial independence is vital and a strong policing of perks, as should have been with the publishing houses, but hasn't as exampled all too sadly with News Corp, which is a far bigger and sadder example than we have here.

colinB
27-07-2011, 13:41
Mr Sircom pointed me in the direction of my current speakers so i would defend honest and sincere journalism when helpful to the consumer but hold my head in my hands when reminded of the Malcolm Stewart cat cable fiasco.
Plus the mags are educational for me, even What hifi has had good articles
Without these publications you can say goodbye to future generations and hello to ipod clones the world over.

Neil McCauley
27-07-2011, 13:51
Without these publications you can say goodbye to future generations and hello to ipod clones the world over.

But that future is already here!

Meanwhile ........ Malcolm Stewart is back, apparently. http://thehifijournal.com/index.php

Howard

Welder
27-07-2011, 14:04
“Without these publications you can say goodbye to future generations and hello to ipod clones the world over.”

And this is undoubtedly true and necessarily a bad thing?

What exactly is all this weeping and gnashing of teeth about, audiophile porn?
Like most porn I suggest, it isn’t of the greatest literary worth certainly and possibly not the best portrayal of audiophilia in general.

colinB
27-07-2011, 14:06
First article i see on there is cyber bullies and the digital cable debate. My advice would be to let it go mate, those guys will end up having him for breakfast. Reminds me of a homoeopth friend who gave a lecture to medical students :doh:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 14:08
But that future is already here!

Meanwhile ........ Malcolm Stewart is back, apparently. http://thehifijournal.com/index.php

Howard

Well it had to happen, a profit making on-line magazine / forum.

It seems like an attempt for the old industry to try to embrace the new, promotion of BADA :lol: etc. All the retail connection promoted and of course the main promotion saved for his pet companies. Naim Nait5 can walk on water :rolleyes:, Icon valve amp condescendingly good at some things.

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 14:40
The reality is we don't need you any more. The publishing industry has fed off the enthusiast for too long. Who pays for the advertising budgets of hi-fi companies, us! who pays your salaries and overheads, us! as it becomes part of the price equipment is sold for in the shops. So even if you don't buy a mag you still end up paying for them. In the past you were needed, now you are becoming a complete irrelevance, on-line does your job for free, so either die quietly or transfer to being on line. No longer can you (collectively) dictate what is stocked and what sells.

Er.. excluding TV sets.

German market: 10+ magazines, hi-fi and AV market worth in excess of half a billion Euros.
UK market: eight magazines, hi-fi and AV market worth in excess of 200m Euros.
Portuguese market: two magazines, hi-fi and AV market worth in excess of 100m Euros.
Ireland: No magazines, hi-fi and AV market is whatever Noel Cloney sells. He is a good guy and sells a lot, but I don't think he represents a 100m Euro market, even before the Celtic Tiger began to struggle.

Now, you might be right in saying that magazines are irrelevant, but the size of the market and the number of magazines are linked in every country I can think of. While correlation does not imply causality, I think we bring visibility. Audio struggles to stay afloat in the rip-tides of websurfing; this site is the 29,033,032nd most popular site on the web (according to Alexa). The only audio sites to make it into the top 30,000 sites are Bose... and What Hi-Fi.

You are also right in suggesting the future lies online. Our iPad subscriber base is now slightly larger than our print sales in Asia-Pacific and Australasia combined. Our army of iPad irregulars now buy as many copies as we sell in our second-best market. And our Android app is also taking off, albeit at slower pace. All combined means we are putting on more readers through tablets than we are losing through print.

Ultimately though, we are all fighting a losing battle in this, but at least some of us still fight. Chances are, no matter what any of us do, 'hi-fi' will in time be reduced to earphones and soundbars, plus a few systems a bit like the B&W Zeppelin and the Focal Bird. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's the way it should be, but I'd prefer there to be a wider choice. And I'm still enough of an enthusiast to keep arguing for that wider choice, which is why I didn't take that editorship of The Dentist.

bigmoog
27-07-2011, 15:00
But that future is already here!

Meanwhile ........ Malcolm Stewart is back, apparently. http://thehifijournal.com/index.php

Howard



I will now chuck all me computers in a skip and stop reading hifi mags and go back to listening to music and doing me knitting:eyebrows:

Neil McCauley
27-07-2011, 15:41
You are also right in suggesting the future lies online. Our iPad subscriber base is now slightly larger than our print sales in Asia-Pacific and Australasia combined. Our army of iPad irregulars now buy as many copies as we sell in our second-best market.

Hmm. Nice. Double-digit figures yet Alan?

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 15:57
Hmm. Nice. Double-digit figures yet Alan?

Four-digit figures, actually.

Neil McCauley
27-07-2011, 16:04
Four-digit figures, actually.

Well, that should have News International shitting themselves then. And as if they didn't have enough to contend with.

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 16:07
Well, that should have News International shitting themselves then. And as if they didn't have enough to contend with.

Yes, and I'm sure your shop is putting the wind up Tescos.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 16:20
Er.. excluding TV sets.

German market: 10+ magazines, hi-fi and AV market worth in excess of half a billion Euros.
UK market: eight magazines, hi-fi and AV market worth in excess of 200m Euros.
Portuguese market: two magazines, hi-fi and AV market worth in excess of 100m Euros.
Ireland: No magazines, hi-fi and AV market is whatever Noel Cloney sells. He is a good guy and sells a lot, but I don't think he represents a 100m Euro market, even before the Celtic Tiger began to struggle.

Now, you might be right in saying that magazines are irrelevant, but the size of the market and the number of magazines are linked in every country I can think of. While correlation does not imply causality, I think we bring visibility. Audio struggles to stay afloat in the rip-tides of websurfing; this site is the 29,033,032nd most popular site on the web (according to Alexa). The only audio sites to make it into the top 30,000 sites are Bose... and What Hi-Fi.

You are also right in suggesting the future lies online. Our iPad subscriber base is now slightly larger than our print sales in Asia-Pacific and Australasia combined. Our army of iPad irregulars now buy as many copies as we sell in our second-best market. And our Android app is also taking off, albeit at slower pace. All combined means we are putting on more readers through tablets than we are losing through print.

Ultimately though, we are all fighting a losing battle in this, but at least some of us still fight. Chances are, no matter what any of us do, 'hi-fi' will in time be reduced to earphones and soundbars, plus a few systems a bit like the B&W Zeppelin and the Focal Bird. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's the way it should be, but I'd prefer there to be a wider choice. And I'm still enough of an enthusiast to keep arguing for that wider choice, which is why I didn't take that editorship of The Dentist.

Nice to see someone is waking up - so now why don't you go entirely on-line.

While I have your attention, why do you think you and your fellow reviewers have greater ability than the end user to decide what is a good piece of hi-fi. Who has told you your ears are better than anyone elses. To put it bluntly why should anyone take any notice of you?

Your armageddon view of the industry won't happen, but not because of you and the print pushers, but because of forums and blogs like this. Yes the mainstream has just about gone, and good riddance. And so will the people who have been ripping of the industry for decades, as their high overhead, high salary, high expenses model wont live in this day and age. They will just keep putting their prices up every year to compensate for lower turnover until they commit suicide, end of another problem. Hi-fi again will belong to the enthusiast not the marketing men - and long may it ever be so.

anthonyTD
27-07-2011, 16:22
Yes, and I'm sure your shop is putting the wind up Tescos.
Now, Now you two,
play nice!:)
Anthony,TD...

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 17:05
Nice to see someone is waking up - so now why don't you go entirely on-line.

While I have your attention, why do you think you and your fellow reviewers have greater ability than the end user to decide what is a good piece of hi-fi. Who has told you your ears are better than anyone elses. To put it bluntly why should anyone take any notice of you?

Your armageddon view of the industry won't happen, but not because of you and the print pushers, but because of forums and blogs like this. Yes the mainstream has just about gone, and good riddance, and so will the people who have been ripping of the industry for decades, as their high overhead, high salary, high expenses model wont live in this day and age. They will just keep putting their prices up every year to compensate for lower turnover until they commit suicide, end of another problem. Hi-fi again will belong to the enthusiast not the marketing men - and long may it ever be so.

We don't go entirely online, because many of our readers still read magazines. Would you stop selling phono stages, even if people kept asking for phono stages, simply because some people have moved on to line-stages?

"Why should anyone take any notice of you?" According to Malcolm Gladwell in Outliers, it takes 10,000 hours to make an expert. That seems to count whatever the subject. We have no special powers. We don't have golden ears or special qualifications. We simply get through a lot of products and have listened to a lot of products over a lot of years.

I like to see that you think the mainstream has just about gone. A £190 million market in the UK is not exactly 'gone'. Yes, it shrunk a lot in 2005 and has stayed stable since. Stability means it hasn't exactly grown, and the world since 2008 hasn't helped, but it's not 'gone'.

My salary is slightly more than a McManager would earn after a year's service - not bad for 20 years experience in a business. I have only made one expenses claim in three years, and that was to pay for a second hotel room at CES because the first one had a dead body leaking into it. I didn't even claim for my flight to Colorado to cover the RMAF. Some of the staff in audio companies earn 'would you like fries with that' salaries. Most reviewers are earning the same per-word figures they got in 1989. So much for the high salary, high expenses model.

Clive
27-07-2011, 17:22
I like to see that you think the mainstream has just about gone. A £190 million market in the UK is not exactly 'gone'. Yes, it shrunk a lot in 2005 and has stayed stable since. Stability means it hasn't exactly grown, and the world since 2008 hasn't helped, but it's not 'gone'.

My salary is slightly more than a McManager would earn after a year's service - not bad for 20 years experience in a business. I have only made one expenses claim in three years, and that was to pay for a second hotel room at CES because the first one had a dead body leaking into it. I didn't even claim for my flight to Colorado to cover the RMAF. Some of the staff in audio companies earn 'would you like fries with that' salaries. Most reviewers are earning the same per-word figures they got in 1989. So much for the high salary, high expenses model.
The £190m figure is for HiFi and AV....what's the split? Is it mostly AV?

You have to be living off another income if you don't claim expenses. So is the mag work more of a hobby? (nothing wrong with that).

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 18:25
The £190m figure is for HiFi and AV....what's the split? Is it mostly AV?

You have to be living off another income if you don't claim expenses. So is the mag work more of a hobby? (nothing wrong with that).

Hard to say. £100m of that goes on loudspeakers. And a lot of that £100m goes on £1,000+ loudspeaker pairs. But how much of that is sliced between stereo pairs and home cinema sets, I don't know.

The rest accounts for maybe about £50m. Mostly music servers and amps these days. LP and CD player sales amount to about three-quarters of a million apiece.

I don't claim expenses because there's a blanket ban on expenses. So, I don't travel down to the office as much as I'd like (because that's £80 in expenses I cannot claim), when I do, I borrow my wife's car and we haven't taken a holiday abroad in years.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 20:39
We don't go entirely online, because many of our readers still read magazines. Would you stop selling phono stages, even if people kept asking for phono stages, simply because some people have moved on to line-stages?

"Why should anyone take any notice of you?" According to Malcolm Gladwell in Outliers, it takes 10,000 hours to make an expert. That seems to count whatever the subject. We have no special powers. We don't have golden ears or special qualifications. We simply get through a lot of products and have listened to a lot of products over a lot of years.

I like to see that you think the mainstream has just about gone. A £190 million market in the UK is not exactly 'gone'. Yes, it shrunk a lot in 2005 and has stayed stable since. Stability means it hasn't exactly grown, and the world since 2008 hasn't helped, but it's not 'gone'.

My salary is slightly more than a McManager would earn after a year's service - not bad for 20 years experience in a business. I have only made one expenses claim in three years, and that was to pay for a second hotel room at CES because the first one had a dead body leaking into it. I didn't even claim for my flight to Colorado to cover the RMAF. Some of the staff in audio companies earn 'would you like fries with that' salaries. Most reviewers are earning the same per-word figures they got in 1989. So much for the high salary, high expenses model.

You said the mainstream would disappear to ipods etc, I just agreed.

I was not referring to magazines or you as high overhead a high expenses etc I was referring to manufacturers, read the post, putting their prices up every year to compensate for lower turnover.

Neil McCauley
27-07-2011, 21:30
Yes, and I'm sure your shop is putting the wind up Tescos.

Alan, that's really, really very good. I feel suitably trumped by a better man. I am indeed impressed. Sincerely, Howard

Neil McCauley
27-07-2011, 21:33
"Why should anyone take any notice of you?" According to Malcolm Gladwell in Outliers, it takes 10,000 hours to make an expert. That seems to count whatever the subject. We have no special powers. We don't have golden ears or special qualifications. We simply get through a lot of products and have listened to a lot of products over a lot of years.

It's a very good point and well expressed too. Can't argue with his logic on this point. And so I won't try. It would be futile.

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 21:37
You said the mainstream would disappear to ipods etc, I just agreed.

I was not referring to magazines or you as high overhead a high expenses etc I was referring to manufacturers, read the post, putting their prices up every year to compensate for lower turnover.

The difference is you seem to assume what currently represents traditional mainstream audio is "just about gone". I suggest that there is still £190m of 'gone' to get through before it reaches "just about gone". Given the relative static nature of those sums, I don't know how long it might take for the industry to eventually devolve to just a dock and a pod market. I'm fighting against this by trying to be out there, by doing things like turning up at the Royal Festival Hall all this weekend and talking up British audio. I think that's more constructive than playing 'duck and cover'.

And no, I don't agree with your assessment of the little guy taking over the tasks done by the 'bigger' business. Unfortunately the little guy will be pushed out by increasingly rigid legislation, designed for the mittelstand across Europe. The middle-sized companies and above will survive, but will sell to markets where audio is still valued. The UK will suffer because we won't buy the sort of equipment that sells into these markets.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 21:48
It's a very good point and well expressed too. Can't argue with his logic on this point.

I can, basically we (meaning hi-fi enthusiasts) created a bunch of ego driven monsters. The only one I ever met with any humility and humanity is Paul Messenger.

As a designer and manufacturer I put my self on the line, I create something. What do they create apart from bullshit, and yet if wanted to sell product I had to kow-tow and show deference as I was talked down to.

All those who still worship their opinions should realise they know less than you do, because your ears are not blocked by your egos (well most of you :lol:)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 22:01
The difference is you seem to assume what currently represents traditional mainstream audio is "just about gone". I suggest that there is still £190m of 'gone' to get through before it reaches "just about gone". Given the relative static nature of those sums, I don't know how long it might take for the industry to eventually devolve to just a dock and a pod market. I'm fighting against this by trying to be out there, by doing things like turning up at the Royal Festival Hall all this weekend and talking up British audio. I think that's more constructive than playing 'duck and cover'.

And no, I don't agree with your assessment of the little guy taking over the tasks done by the 'bigger' business. Unfortunately the little guy will be pushed out by increasingly rigid legislation, designed for the mittelstand across Europe. The middle-sized companies and above will survive, but will sell to markets where audio is still valued. The UK will suffer because we won't buy the sort of equipment that sells into these markets.

Well all I can do is solidly and completely disagree with you. What remains of your bigger companies i.e. those not sold as names to a Chinese holding company, or companies in name only as they market Chinese made product, will soon be sold to the Chinese. You really should look at some of the companies (no names no pack drill) and how much money is being deflected into director pension schemes, they know the writing is on the wall and they will just milk the remaining sheep for as long as they can. The future is here and on the DIY forums where guys are getting the confidence to sell the things they make. And "The Regulations" can go F' themselves, there is no regulation as it is not being enforced. As I said before *if* it was being enforced you would no longer be able to buy a new valve amplifier. I just wish I hadn't wasted my time going through the whole process of complying in the mid 90's and saving myself a lot of time and money.

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 22:06
I can, basically we (meaning hi-fi enthusiasts) created a bunch of ego driven monsters. The only one I ever met with any humility and humanity is Paul Messenger.

As a designer and manufacturer I put my self on the line, I create something. What do they create apart from bullshit, and yet if wanted to sell product I had to kow-tow and show deference as I was talked down to.

All those who still worship their opinions should realise they know less than you do, because your ears are not blocked by your egos (well most of you :lol:)

Er, if you are going to challenge the veracity of the an argument, you need to address the premise(s) of the stated argument. Dismissing it because of your opinion of the job of the person making the argument is fallacious in the extreme.

The Grand Wazoo
27-07-2011, 22:51
Er, if you are going to challenge the veracity of the an argument, you need to address the premise(s) of the stated argument. Dismissing it because of your opinion of the job of the person making the argument is fallacious in the extreme.

Absolutely.
Richard, for someone who cries foul so often, at what you perceive as unprovoked personal attacks, that is quite a statement!
I suggest that an apology is in order.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
27-07-2011, 23:21
Absolutely.
Richard, for someone who cries foul so often, at what you perceive as unprovoked personal attacks, that is quite a statement!
I suggest that an apology is in order.

A statement against who?

I replied to a post by Howard. As far as I know I have never met Alan Sircom, I have definitely not supplied him with product. To me he seems a pretty decent guy according to what I read here, if a little misled in my opinion.

I haven't had anything to do with a reviewer since 1999, apart from Paul Messenger who I see occasionally as a friend when we go down to Broadstairs on a warm summer day (some hope this year) and I try to avoid talking about hi-fi.

I am talking about the ones I have met and dealt with personally, so there is no attack on Alan. You should not relate this to the earlier post where I was fishing for him to give me a reason why anyone should trust or follow any reviewers judgement.

Sorry if it seems over the top it is just one of my industry rants, but I am afraid I *really do* think it, and have experienced it, I don't say it for effect.

Alan Sircom
27-07-2011, 23:56
Well all I can do is solidly and completely disagree with you. What remains of your bigger companies i.e. those not sold as names to a Chinese holding company, or companies in name only as they market Chinese made product, will soon be sold to the Chinese. You really should look at some of the companies (no names no pack drill) and how much money is being deflected into director pension schemes, they know the writing is on the wall and they will just milk the remaining sheep for as long as they can. The future is here and on the DIY forums where guys are getting the confidence to sell the things they make. And "The Regulations" can go F' themselves, there is no regulation as it is not being enforced. As I said before *if* it was being enforced you would no longer be able to buy a new valve amplifier. I just wish I hadn't wasted my time going through the whole process of complying in the mid 90's and saving myself a lot of time and money.

You seem to assume the UK is the entire market. It's not. I used the word 'mittelstand' earlier very deliberately. Beyond the English Channel, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic regard this land as the key to wider international exports, and slowly and surely draw their plans against you.

For all your dislike of some UK audio brands and their attempts to dictate the shape of the industry, I don't think anyone's dobbed you into Trading Standards for self-certing CE, thereby tying you up in expensive and time-consuming testing just to put you out of competition.

You think the UK audio world is a bear pit? You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Alan Sircom
28-07-2011, 00:11
As far as I know I have never met Alan Sircom, I have definitely not supplied him with product.

Oh, but you have and you did. I had a phono stage, passive pre and a stereo power amp, and for a very short time I had a set of Cubes, in the very early 1990s. IIRC, I liked them a lot, but there was some issue about a review. However, I can't remember if you flew off the handle about writing the amps up or Noel did.

Both outcomes are, let's face it, conceivable.

alfie2902
28-07-2011, 00:53
I think it's a real shame, especially for the staff that look like losing there jobs! I've got to know Ed Selley (tons of fun) a little over the last couple of years & he's a real nice chap! Real people with real families to feed.

I still enjoy reading some of the mags from time to time, I wouldn't buy kit just because of a mag recommendation, but it's good to see what's new!

I think a mag is easier for a noob to use too, as the forums can be a bit daunting at first.

Keep up the good work at 'Plush' Alan, It's nice to read about the hi-end even if some of it is unobtanium price wise.

Beechwoods
28-07-2011, 05:54
All those who still worship their opinions should realise they know less than you do, because your ears are not blocked by your egos (well most of you :lol:)

Puts Admin hat on.

Can I call for some decorum on this thread. It's descending into abuse now, whether directed at specific individuals or a whole sector, it's not acceptable. This reflects badly upon everyone, and is not necessary. AOS has more class. Can I ask that everyone takes a breath and moderates their own contributions to this thread before hitting 'Submit Reply'. We don't want to have to, but we will if necessary.

Thank you.


{EDIT: unacceptable language removed from quoted text -- Marco}

Marco
28-07-2011, 07:01
Indeed, Nick. I've deleted that original remark (and have now removed it from your quote above).

Richard, you must learn to moderate your language. It is fine to express opinions, but not via the use of invective. Also, it's great that Alan is taking part in this discussion (welcome back, Alan!), so please leave the disdain you have for areas of the industry out of it; indeed you have already said that he is one of the good guys.


Sorry if it seems over the top it is just one of my industry rants...


Ok, but I don't want to see any more of these rants. We all know what you think on that subject, so it's old news! [Insert 'Yawn' smiley here].

Oh, and this request is not up for discussion, so any 'back-chat' from you on the matter will simply be removed without further warning.

Let's keep the discussion friendly and constructive, in fact, I INSIST on it - cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
28-07-2011, 08:26
Oh, but you have and you did. I had a phono stage, passive pre and a stereo power amp, and for a very short time I had a set of Cubes, in the very early 1990s. IIRC, I liked them a lot, but there was some issue about a review. However, I can't remember if you flew off the handle about writing the amps up or Noel did.

Both outcomes are, let's face it, conceivable.

You have a better memory than me then.

I doubt it was me, as I kow-tow-ed back then. I remember Noel Keywood being the epitome of what I am referring to, but I genuinely don't remember you.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
28-07-2011, 09:01
You seem to assume the UK is the entire market. It's not. I used the word 'mittelstand' earlier very deliberately. Beyond the English Channel, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic regard this land as the key to wider international exports, and slowly and surely draw their plans against you.

For all your dislike of some UK audio brands and their attempts to dictate the shape of the industry, I don't think anyone's dobbed you into Trading Standards for self-certing CE, thereby tying you up in expensive and time-consuming testing just to put you out of competition.

You think the UK audio world is a bear pit? You ain't seen nothin' yet.

I don't think I do, I survived it perfectly well by going export, unlike a large percentage of the industry. I think you are mostly referring to the German market. Well that to me is a mystery as to how such over engineered and yet sad sounding product could ever find a market. Most of it seemed to boom honk and spit when I heard it at shows, especially the strange horns.

CE compliance was just a pain in the arse, and was largely finding ways to comply without completely ruining the music. As I say if I had known what I know now I wouldn't have bothered. Trading standards are underfunded, undermanned and don't have a brief to do anything about CE, it is just another European bureaucratic tool that is being complied with in name only. It is stopping a lot of cheap Chinese stuff sold on markets that catch fire as it gives them an excuse to seize stock. But the more tech sides of the regs as in protecting the telecoms industry with em emissions controls is being ignored as the problem has been solved at source, within the telecoms industry. The whole thing was rank stupidity anyway seeing as just about every British house built since the 2nd WW would seriously fail CE (if they had to comply) because of the damn fool ring main system we use. An average British house generates more field than all the appliances inside could have done even before CE.

It is just part of the European project bureaucratic muddle that only contributes in keeping civil servants in jobs so we don't have to find them real jobs.

Alan Sircom
28-07-2011, 09:58
I don't think I do, I survived it perfectly well by going export, unlike a large percentage of the industry. I think you are mostly referring to the German market. Well that to me is a mystery as to how such over engineered and yet sad sounding product could ever find a market. Most of it seemed to boom honk and spit when I heard it at shows, especially the strange horns.

CE compliance was just a pain in the arse, and was largely finding ways to comply without completely ruining the music. As I say if I had known what I know now I wouldn't have bothered. Trading standards are underfunded, undermanned and don't have a brief to do anything about CE, it is just another European bureaucratic tool that is being complied with in name only. It is stopping a lot of cheap Chinese stuff sold on markets that catch fire as it gives them an excuse to seize stock. But the more tech sides of the regs as in protecting the telecoms industry with em emissions controls is being ignored as the problem has been solved at source, within the telecoms industry. The whole thing was rank stupidity anyway seeing as just about every British house built since the 2nd WW would seriously fail CE (if they had to comply) because of the damn fool ring main system we use. An average British house generates more field than all the appliances inside could have done even before CE.

It is just part of the European project bureaucratic muddle that only contributes in keeping civil servants in jobs so we don't have to find them real jobs.

Part of the reason the German market does so well is it's very good at marketing its German-ness (playing to both the engineering and the patriotic interests of the country) to German people. Another part of the success story is using +5 Bureaucrat skills to enforce what we largely ignore.

Cast your mind back to the full catastrophe version of TÜV-grade CE standards in the 1990s. Think how much time and money you would need to spend to develop compatible products. And then think what the end result would sound like - mostly muffled except for some boom and tizz at the place you so rightly describe as 'honk and spit'. That's using standards to level the playing field.

They continued to play by the rules and we continued to mostly avoid them. Over the years, Euro brands started to learn how to make better sound (sometimes) from within the constraints of the standards. Meanwhile our brands started finding it increasingly difficult to sell into Europe without the relevant documentation.

Today, everyone wants export. Even companies that had 90%+ home market penetration eye up other regions. And in Europe, the UK market is still the key to sales outside of the EU. Despite your dislike of the magazines in the UK, many are still considered independent and principally honest (compared to local titles) and it's well known that a UK review might engender a few sales here... and new distributors abroad. There are several companies I know of that are only in the UK because of the reviews they get here and any local sales are considered a bonus. It's part of the advantage of writing in the world's first or second language.

If European manufacturers view the UK as a stepping stone to greater sales abroad, local UK-based brands are an impediment to that goal. And I guess those +5 Bureaucrat skills are useful once more.

Marco
28-07-2011, 10:28
Part of the reason the German market does so well is it's very good at marketing its German-ness (playing to both the engineering and the patriotic interests of the country) to German people.


And, like the Jap, Greek, Italian and American 'audiophiles', are not afraid to spend whatever is necessary in order to achieve their system sonic goals, as opposed to the (largely) penny-pinching, unimaginative, eBay 'bargain hunters' we have here in the UK! ;)

One only has to attend the big European audio shows, and compare how they are conducted by exhibitors, and the clientele that they attract, compared to the shows here (populated in the main by what I call the 'carrier-bag crew'), for that fact to be hammered home....

Marco.

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 10:36
And, like the Jap, Greek, Italian and American 'audiophiles', are not afraid to spend whatever is necessary in order to achieve their system sonic goals, as opposed to the (largely) penny-pinching, unimaginative, eBay 'bargain hunters' we have here in the UK! ;)

One only has to attend the big European audio shows, and compare how they are conducted by exhibitors, and the clientele that they attract, compared to the shows here, for that fact to be hammered home....

Marco.

Quite so Marco, quite so. No idea what can be done though. Have you? Regards. Howard.

Welder
28-07-2011, 10:39
Oi! Who are you calling “tight fisted” and “unimaginative”. Some of us just “careful” with what money we have and some of us just don’t have the money to start with :rolleyes:

ADMIN! Send this man on a week’s holiday! Talk about insulting a notoriously thrift conscious nation.
:eek::lolsign:


(Oh, it’s you Marco. Do me a favour please and ban yourself for a week) :lolsign:

Marco
28-07-2011, 10:46
Lol! The key is in the word "largely", which was used in my post... I'm not for a moment suggesting that any of our discerning members here are like that ;)

Marco.

Alan Sircom
28-07-2011, 10:48
Quite so Marco, quite so. No idea what can be done though. Have you? Regards. Howard.

No, I wish there was something that can be done about this. It's understandable at the present time. We British are collectively not buying anything expensive (unless it's mind-bogglingly expensive) at the moment and that includes hi-fi and AV equipment, because we are collectively waiting for the other shoe to drop. But the worry is the British weren't buying much in the way of hi-fi before the downturn, compared to other countries and relative to the rest of the CE world.

There's an even stranger statistic that doesn't get much air. Sales of consumer electronics typically run fairly predictably; the early adopters live in cities and buy shiny things, while those in more rural areas end up buying more conservatively. So the two iPad family is almost guaranteed to be based in London, while the person pondering an upgrade from DVD to Blu-ray is likely to be based somewhere green and pleasant. When downturns hit, the early adopters become more conservative and hold off the gadget purchases, while the rural buyers still go through their replacement cycles, albeit perhaps a little slower than usual.

This time, the inverse is true. The gadget buyers are soaking up anything with an Apple logo on it (if they can, clones if they can't) at seemingly a faster pace than usual, while the heartland has gone very quiet indeed.

Really don't know what to make of that!

WAD62
28-07-2011, 11:05
Lol! The key is in the word "largely", which was used in my post... I'm not for a moment suggesting that any of our discerning members here are like that ;)

Marco.

...get yer eyes off my skip, I found it first ;)

WAD62
28-07-2011, 11:14
This time, the inverse is true. The gadget buyers are soaking up anything with an Apple logo on it (if they can, clones if they can't) at seemingly a faster pace than usual, while the heartland has gone very quiet indeed.


Saturation advertising by Apple perhaps? Works with the non-discerning consumer every time...

I dread to think what their budget is...:eek:

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 11:24
Saturation advertising by Apple perhaps? Works with the non-discerning consumer every time...

I dread to think what their budget is...:eek:

Cash 'mountain' currently $57 billion apparently. Most recent quarter's profits were circa $7 billion apparently.

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 11:33
Saturation advertising by Apple perhaps? Works with the non-discerning consumer every time:

Now hang on a minute. They don't have reverse-bouncers chucking people into their stores now do they?

The plain and unpalatable fact is that they are producing items people want to buy. And I'm one of those people.

I've used a MAC computer since 1984. I've used and still use an i-pod, albeit with music in WAV format. Yes, I have an i-phone Mk4 and Jayne my PA has an i-pad #2

None of us are chavs. We aren't into bling. The fact is that the above tools deliver not only on their promise but in a way that we find appealing. Who in their right mind, in the generation of buyers with money to spend seriously consider attempts at 'fettling' a Linn LP12? It's nuts and our industry looks like nuts. When I drive my Audi A3 I don't expect to 'fettle' it every now and then.

Finally, imagine buying an Apple product from an Apple store and then visualise how that person might react to the first impression of an audiophile store? This was one of the reasons why I no longer have a shop and now sell either through home demos or sale-or-return mail order.

hifi_dave
28-07-2011, 11:38
And, like the Jap, Greek, Italian and American 'audiophiles', are not afraid to spend whatever is necessary in order to achieve their system sonic goals, as opposed to the (largely) penny-pinching, unimaginative, eBay 'bargain hunters' we have here in the UK! ;)

One only has to attend the big European audio shows, and compare how they are conducted by exhibitors, and the clientele that they attract, compared to the shows here (populated in the main by what I call the 'carrier-bag crew'), for that fact to be hammered home....

Marco.
It's been this way since the mid 80's. Before that, every young lad wanted a good Hi-Fi system and was prepared to pay for it. Now, it's the cheapest product at the lowest price that sells in the UK. We aren't prepared to pay for quality where Hi-Fi is concerned. That and the fact that most people aren't even aware that Hi-Fi exists..:scratch:

More and more of my customers are in their 40's or older. Most are upgrading their systems and few are starting from scratch with a whole system. I'm also seeing customers who went the 'Home Cinema' route and are now coming back to good quality two channel, often with a TT as the main source.

Clive
28-07-2011, 11:38
I won't buy Apple products mainly because most are over-priced. They are good though but everyone has them and I hate being part of that - it's an entry ticket to a part of society.

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 11:51
I won't buy Apple products mainly because most are over-priced. They are good though but everyone has them and I hate being part of that - it's an entry ticket to a part of society.

I feel, both as a civilian and a retailer the same way about Linn, Naim and to a lesser extent, Rega.

But who in their right mind would by a Linn product these days? To do so is to buy a very expensive entry ticket into a cul-de-sac. My guess is that the buying public, in this respect at least, aren't as dim as previously.

Do I blame Linn for the mess our industry is in? No, not exclusively. The lemming-like audiophile-scribes of the 1980s provided the compost into which the Linn seeds and indeed the seeds of our own collective failure were sown.

WAD62
28-07-2011, 11:53
An Android phone is easily as good, if not better than an iPhone (for useful functionality), but Google won't take them on in a marketing war, they don't need to.

An Android epad knocks the socks of an ipad, for functionality and cost.

And Macs are indeed easier to use for some people, as long as you don't want to do anything useful.

But bare in mind how much of your hard earned cash is going on their global brainwashing strategy.

They're a slimy bunch of protectionist, propriety, gadget bullies...once they have you you can't escape easily.

Can't wait for them to get their collective fingers burned in their law suits against Samsung and HTC.

Next they'll try to copyright the letter 'i', and all words beginning with it...assuming they already haven't.

They are the technology equivalent of McDonalds, popular and sh1t...all of course IMHO ;)

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 12:03
They're a slimy bunch of protectionist, propriety, gadget Nazis...once they have you you can't escape easily.

As a Yid, or possibly even "Filthy fucking Yid" (you aren't offended by that term are you, 'cos I'm certainly not!) could you keep the Nazi references to yourself please?

Try as I may, I can't quite see Steve Jobs injecting blue dye into the eyeballs of newborn babies for 'racial experiments' like Dr Joseph Mengle. Or pulling the toenails out from British women working with the French resistance.

If you want to remain ignorant of a part of history that clearly you know little about (and possibly care even less) then fine. If not then check this out > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele#Human_experimentation

And then of course you might just love this > http://amzn.to/od5es1

Thank you

HP

Macca
28-07-2011, 12:06
Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:08
I won't buy Apple products mainly because most are over-priced. They are good though but everyone has them and I hate being part of that - it's an entry ticket to a part of society.

I agree for an individual they are a little overpriced - although they are consistently at the top of their game, and you get what you pay for.

However, there is massive money saving potential for some big businesses in adopting iPads compared to laptops - much cheaper hardware, virtually no additional licence costs and support requirements dramatically reduced partly because of the simplicity but also because of "consumerisation" where the user ("owner") of the device is allowed it for semi-personal use, they tend to take care of it.

The scope in some sectors to increase productivity in business process is also huge, and the App developer toolset makes it relatively easy to build custom software at low cost, extremely quickly, and in house.

One of the really interesting dynamics in Technology is how it has done a 180 degree turn; 10 years ago, what you got at work (a PC, Internet if you were lucky) was what you aspired to at home - now, it is the other way round - products aimed at individual consumers are being integrated into the Corporate environment, and uses found for them that were probably never expected at the conceptual stage.

Anyway, I've gone way off topic (even the off topic topic!) so apologies!

Clive
28-07-2011, 12:09
The N word gets used in many situations....parking wardens, Soup N*** - was that in Friends? But in deference to your origins Howard I can totally understand your sensitivity.

Clive
28-07-2011, 12:09
I agree for an individual they are a little overpriced - although they are consistently at the top of their game, and you get what you pay for.

However, there is massive money saving potential for some big businesses in adopting iPads compared to laptops - much cheaper hardware, virtually no additional licence costs and support requirements dramatically reduced partly because of the simplicity but also because of "consumerisation" where the user ("owner") of the device is allowed it for semi-personal use, they tend to take care of it.

The scope in some sectors to increase productivity in business process is also huge, and the App developer toolset makes it relatively easy to build custom software at low cost, extremely quickly, and in house.

One of the really interesting dynamics in Technology is how it has done a 180 degree turn; 10 years ago, what you got at work (a PC, Internet if you were lucky) was what you aspired to at home - now, it is the other way round - products aimed at individual consumers are being integrated into the Corporate environment, and uses found for them that were probably never expected at the conceptual stage.

Anyway, I've gone way off topic (even the off topic topic!) so apologies!
But why iPads? Android tablets are much cheaper.

WAD62
28-07-2011, 12:11
Nobody brainwashes me. Nobody.

And while I'm at it, as a Yid (you aren't offended by that term are you, 'cos I'm certainly not!) could you keep the Nazi references to yourself please?


Howard, not the best choice of words... apologies for any offence caused...

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 12:13
Howard, not the best choice of words... apologies for any offence caused...

Apology accepted. Thank you. Water under the bridge. Sincerely, Howard

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:14
Thanks chaps for the self-moderation! Appreciate it is emotive, but yes, probably best to avoid contentious words, and if anyone really wants to start a punch up please stick to the Queensberry Rules! ;)

Macca
28-07-2011, 12:16
Do I blame Linn for the mess our industry is in? No, not exclusively. The lemming-like audiophile-scribes of the 1980s provided the compost into which the Linn seeds and indeed the seeds of our own collective failure were sown.

I got into hi-fi in the mid eighties - Linn/naim was all the rage but like most people I could not afford it so any magazine/reviewer bias was completely irrelevant to me, I bought my first hi-fi from Richer Sounds.

People only have so much disposable income and the fact is that in the seventies and early eighties there was a lot less to spend your money on. For example from 1984 onwards how many hi-fi budgets were eaten up by the purchase of a home computer? - Plenty. How much leisure time was now spent tapping on said computer instead of listening to hi-fi? Plenty.

Industry insiders blaming Linn/Naim and the mags for the demise of the British Hi-fi industry is a wood for trees situation IMHO. Step back and get some perspective.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:18
But why iPads? Android tablets are much cheaper.

If you are just talking about the cost of the device then yes - but when you look at the total cost of ownership over hundreds of devices in the Corporate environment it isn't quite always that simple.

I accept of course though that a lot of the benefits of tablets would equally apply to Android in the commercial world.

WAD62
28-07-2011, 12:20
Apology accepted. Thank you. Water under the bridge. Sincerely, Howard

Appreciated :)

Clive
28-07-2011, 12:21
If you are just talking about the cost of the device then yes - but when you look at the total cost of ownership over hundreds of devices in the Corporate environment it isn't quite always that simple.

I accept of course though that a lot of the benefits of tablets would equally apply to Android in the commercial world.
If Apples were cheaper as laptops the 110,00 employee org I work for would be using them instead of Windows laptops. We are very cost conscious, our CEO is a pal of Steve Jobs and we don't get on with Microsoft. Apple just does not cost in.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:23
People only have so much disposable income and the fact is that in the seventies and early eighties there was a lot less to spend your money on. For example from 1984 onwards how many hi-fi budgets were eaten up by the purchase of a home computer? - Plenty. How much leisure time was now spent tapping on said computer instead of listening to hi-fi? Plenty.

Yup - can't disagree with that at all Martin. Sadly, whether we like it or not, youngsters of today would rather spend their time online gaming or watching the multitude of TV choices, surfing the net, etc. rather than sitting down and listening to music.

Music now is just a soundtrack to other things for most people - on the tube, in the car, maybe in the kitchen cooking dinner and a bit of back ground music whilst eating. Sad, isn't it?

Problem is, though - that if you give a child the choice, 99% of them will take the video games or TV - I've tried strapping Avatar into a chair and playing her Brothers In Arms but I can assure you she would much rather play Peppa Pig games on her Mum's iPhone! :eek:

WAD62
28-07-2011, 12:25
I've tried strapping Avatar into a chair and playing her Brothers In Arms but I can assure you she would much rather play Peppa Pig games on her Mum's iPhone! :eek:

...so would I for that matter ;)

get social services involved...child cruelty!!!

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:27
If Apples were cheaper as laptops the 110,00 employee org I work for would be using them instead of Windows laptops. We are very cost conscious, our CEO is a pal of Steve Jobs and we don't get on with Microsoft. Apple just does not cost in.

Fair enough Clive, I don't know your business specifically I can only go on the work we've been doing within our much smaller enterprise - I can assure you though that we wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work out much more cost effective for us, and I'm sure a lot of other businesses will find the same.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:29
...so would I for that matter ;)

get social services involved...child cruelty!!!

I should probably have added a very big winky smiley there, shouldn't I!

WAD62
28-07-2011, 12:31
I should probably have added a very big winky smiley there, shouldn't I!

I was more worried about the 'Dire Straits' element than anything else :lolsign:

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:34
I was more worried about the 'Dire Straits' element than anything else :lolsign:

Indeedy - I keep asking for an :ironic: smiley but we haven't found one yet! :lol:

(If it was Lady Gaga I might stand a chance - but when I realised she knows most of the words, you suddenly DON'T want your daughter listening to music when she is singing "I wanna take a ride on your disco stick" :eek:)

Macca
28-07-2011, 12:34
. Sadly, whether we like it or not, youngsters of today would rather spend their time online gaming or watching the multitude of TV choices, surfing the net, etc. rather than sitting down and listening to music.

Music now is just a soundtrack to other things for most people - on the tube, in the car, maybe in the kitchen cooking dinner and a bit of back ground music whilst eating. Sad, isn't it?

:

Yes one sad fact about the younger generation (Christ I sound old!:eek:) is that they always have to be doing something. In my day we did not have enough stimulus so we would set fire to the litter bin at the bus stop or something - now they have too much stimulus, they cannot sit still and just listen, the whole concept is alien to them.

Welder
28-07-2011, 12:34
Whoa, didn’t the Hi Fi buying public read all those articles written by journalists who seemed at the time to have a virtually unanimous no Linn/Naim; no Hi Fi approach.
Go to a Hi Fi retailers at the time and they fell over themselves in the rush to demo a Linn record deck and Naim amplification in preference to any make or model you said you were interested in.

Apparently “the trade” listened and compared these products with countless others and in their opinion they sounded far better than the competition.
So what’s changed?
Has their hearing improved?

What possible reason could we, the enthusiasts, have for taking these people seriously now?

Clive
28-07-2011, 12:37
Fair enough Clive, I don't know your business specifically I can only go on the work we've been doing within our much smaller enterprise - I can assure you though that we wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work out much more cost effective for us, and I'm sure a lot of other businesses will find the same.
Was the cost/benefit analysis don't before Android tablets became established? Believe me, if Apple products costed in we would use them.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 12:50
Was the cost/benefit analysis don't before Android tablets became established? Believe me, if Apple products costed in we would use them.

I didn't do the research personally but I believe so - though I've not seen any figures comparing Android vs iPad, so I cant be 100% sure it was looked at in detail.

lurcher
28-07-2011, 12:52
our CEO is a pal of Steve Jobs and we don't get on with Microsoft.

Though to be fair, I doubt he is on Google's xmas card list either at the moment :-)

Marco
28-07-2011, 12:58
Ahem...could we please not turn this into a yawn-inducing computer audio discussion? There's enough of that in its own section. Ta! :)

Marco.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 13:07
Ahem...could we please not turn this into a yawn-inducing computer audio discussion? There's enough of that in its own section. Ta! :)

Marco.

It's worse than that - we weren't even talking about audio - just computers! :o

:sofa:

Sorry boss - back to the topic, chaps. :)

Darren
28-07-2011, 13:11
Indeed....

Remember, folks, that blatant advertising of one's blog, with links provided, (<cough>, Howard, <cough> ;)) is only permitted in the trade area.

Ta!

Marco.

Only just seen this... that's so funny. You cant touch Marco's moderation style.

Alan Sircom
28-07-2011, 15:09
I got into hi-fi in the mid eighties - Linn/naim was all the rage but like most people I could not afford it so any magazine/reviewer bias was completely irrelevant to me, I bought my first hi-fi from Richer Sounds.

People only have so much disposable income and the fact is that in the seventies and early eighties there was a lot less to spend your money on. For example from 1984 onwards how many hi-fi budgets were eaten up by the purchase of a home computer? - Plenty. How much leisure time was now spent tapping on said computer instead of listening to hi-fi? Plenty.

Industry insiders blaming Linn/Naim and the mags for the demise of the British Hi-fi industry is a wood for trees situation IMHO. Step back and get some perspective.

An extremely fair point. There's a lot that didn't used to exist, giving hi-fi a free pass. VCRs, games consoles, personal computers, home cinema, microwave ovens, the Sony Walkman, designer clothes, share options, PDAs, Pads, Pods, Phones, al fresco culture, M&S food porn, better cars, designer bling, Blu-ray and turning your little ones into cosseted demon micro-consumers ("I don' wanna go out, I want a Power Tamapokegotchimon Transformeranger that turns the milk choleric, NOW!") all help or helped turn money away from buying good stereo sound.

But I think what's really changed recently is how unfashionable the whole audio thing has become. The ability for computer geek forums to vent spleen over audiophile cables knows no bounds, granted, but that is merely the most visible signs of this deep sense of how desperately unfashionable audio is in the mainstream these days.

Part of this is the way the culture has shifted in its expectations of product life cycles. Audio attempts to justify its costs through reliability, longevity and resale value of its products. This proves a strong motivator for those in their 40s and beyond, and a complete turn off for many of those under 40. We are in a culture that completely gets the notion of products being out of date the moment you buy them, of lasting a matter of months before they need replacement and having zero resale value.

This doesn't resolve itself by raising or lowering prices. It works by completely changing the business model, and yet not changing it so drastically you disenfranchise your existing core customers. Personally, I think the product that most reaches this new business model and still stays 'audiophile friendly' is the HRT Streamer range. The DACs are cheap, small, effectively almost disposable, and the product line goes through almost annual updates and upgrades. They don't quite decode themselves simply enough for a generation of people who view music replay as just another peripheral, and thus want a five-second explanation rather than a two hour demonstration. But the product plays on its instant and self-evident 'rightness' to both old and new generations.

Neil McCauley
28-07-2011, 15:18
The ability for computer geek forums to vent spleen over audiophile cables knows no bounds, granted, but that is merely the most visible signs of this deep sense of how desperately unfashionable audio is in the mainstream these days.

Your predecessor and Nordost have much to answer for in this respect in my view.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 15:27
Another well thought out and reasoned post, Alan, and well written of course (have you thought about doing this for a living? Don't worry - I'm not turning to comedy!)

"Commoditisation" in a nutshell, I guess - everyone wants the best quality at the lowest price and they want it now - if the customer invests none of their own time and energy in exploring their buying options and just opts for Google Shopping, then they don't have much "skin in the game" as it where, and it is just another "thing" to own, and eventually dispose of.

The end result is that mainstream businesses become niche businesses unless they adapt, or offer a compelling reason for the customer to make a more meaningful investment - in either time, effort or money. I do believe in certain sectors the tide was turning, to a small degree, but then the downturn happened...

Alan Sircom
28-07-2011, 16:19
Your predecessor and Nordost have much to answer for in this respect in my view.

Up to a point, perhaps. But I think the reaction to Nordost (and Transparent, and MIT, and Kimber, etc, etc) and their prices is more a symptom of audio's unfashionable status, rather than a cause. The same people who go completely death threat over someone spending eight grand on a power cord, go just as mental when someone spends £100 on a USB cable, buys something like Pure Music, claims they still like listening to CDs, likes the sound of a valve amplifier, buys a headphone amplifier, or doesn't rate data compression particularly highly. They don't tend to go off the rails when reading about someone spending £350,000 on a wrist watch.

I doubt if the whole audio cable industry went away it would suddenly add legitimacy to audio in the eyes of such people. "Better a paedophile than an audiophile" is their war cry, and that sort of animosity doesn't diffuse. Granted that's a pretty extreme viewpoint (welcome to the Interweb!), but in its less-volatile isomers, it's a surprisingly commonly held one.

Alan Sircom
28-07-2011, 16:36
Another well thought out and reasoned post, Alan, and well written of course (have you thought about doing this for a living? Don't worry - I'm not turning to comedy!)

"Commoditisation" in a nutshell, I guess - everyone wants the best quality at the lowest price and they want it now - if the customer invests none of their own time and energy in exploring their buying options and just opts for Google Shopping, then they don't have much "skin in the game" as it where, and it is just another "thing" to own, and eventually dispose of.

The end result is that mainstream businesses become niche businesses unless they adapt, or offer a compelling reason for the customer to make a more meaningful investment - in either time, effort or money. I do believe in certain sectors the tide was turning, to a small degree, but then the downturn happened...

Agreed whole-heartedly. B&W's bet-the-farm move to become a supplier of headphones, earphones, computer speakers and up-market amplidocklispeakifiers like the Zeppelin is built on the company's desire to stay in the mainstream. Monster repackaging itself from a cable company to a headphone/earphone company that also does cables is driven by the same desire. And like it or not, these moves are successful... and almost impossible for the little guy to replicate.

Which is why, yes, I think the industry will one day inevitably devolve into a range of products like the Zeppelin and the Focal Birds, hopefully with a few alternatives tagged on the end from the specialists. Richard's right in that leaves a lot of gaps for the little guys in the short term, but I'm not so convinced that has much longer to survive if the audio specialists go away.

It's rather like the washing machine market. In the 1920s, one of the most fashionable things an engineering-led man could do was build a washing machine, and a thriving niche industry emerged to support the DIY washing machine world. The Depression took care of much of that DIY market, but a small enclave of engineering types kept the flame alive. As soon as it commoditized and the washing machine became just another white goods product, the DIY interest evaporated. Fast. Aside from some nutter on YouTube who overruns washing machines and throws bricks in them at 24,000 rpm, who gives a stuff about washing machines these days?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
28-07-2011, 21:46
Another well thought out and reasoned post, Alan, and well written of course (have you thought about doing this for a living? Don't worry - I'm not turning to comedy!)

"Commoditisation" in a nutshell, I guess - everyone wants the best quality at the lowest price and they want it now - if the customer invests none of their own time and energy in exploring their buying options and just opts for Google Shopping, then they don't have much "skin in the game" as it where, and it is just another "thing" to own, and eventually dispose of.

The end result is that mainstream businesses become niche businesses unless they adapt, or offer a compelling reason for the customer to make a more meaningful investment - in either time, effort or money. I do believe in certain sectors the tide was turning, to a small degree, but then the downturn happened...

Hi-Fi is a niche business and always should have been, it has never been mainstream as far as I am concerned, where as audio has.

chelsea
28-07-2011, 21:54
Don't forget a large amount of us into hifi in the 70s and 80s didn't have the choice.

Tv only had 3 channels and finished around midnight,no comps,no dvd,no xbox.

In general it felt as though there was more time and most families had a stereo in there front room.

Now the comp and 5.1 with your plasma/lcd rule the roost.

I really feel 2 channel is limited and will be gone shortly.

My 18 year niece came over a while ago and didn't have a clue what a record was.

This generation still love music but most have a totally different approach than we do.

Hope i'am wrong.

Alex_UK
28-07-2011, 22:01
I really feel 2 channel is limited and will be gone shortly.

Hope i'am wrong.

Here, I think you will be wrong - simply because most music (which has also largely been commoditised, but that's another story!) is consumed these days through headphones, via file based audio players - I dare bet (as has already been eluded to further above) that the iPod generation probably listen to more music than their predecessors did before the MP3 was invented... The spin-off benefit of that is that music will still be available for us old fogeys to feed into our speakers for some time to come. (As long as you have a computer. :))

DSJR
28-07-2011, 22:06
The spin-off benefit of that is that music will still be available for us old fogeys to feed into our speakers for some time to come. (As long as you have a computer. :))

Speak for yourself, you "youth" you :lol: I came into this world accompanied by my Dad's collection of 78's, some of which I still have :) and jolly good they can sound as well once the noise is dealt with, usually with a suitable stylus (and a Tannoy Variluctance cartridge ;)). I have a download or two I'll send you for reference if you like:)

Tim
28-07-2011, 22:09
I really feel 2 channel is limited and will be gone shortly.
Na, plain flat out disagree with that, so I don't think you will have to worry (IMO) ;)

chelsea
28-07-2011, 22:19
Na, plain flat out disagree with that, so I don't think you will have to worry (IMO) ;)

Not to worried but it would be a shame.

Most people seem more than happy with there 5.1 surround sound thingies.

bogle111
28-07-2011, 22:21
Hi-Fi is a niche business and always should have been, it has never been mainstream as far as I am concerned, where as audio has.

"and always should have been" Why should it always have been? That is like saying that great cars shouldn't be purchased by anyone, cause they are a niche business.

BTW In the States, Audio is the specialist word, Hifi is mainstream. Same in Germany and Japan.

Clive
29-07-2011, 08:00
Not to worried but it would be a shame.

Most people seem more than happy with there 5.1 surround sound thingies.
Maybe I'm unusual but I only know one person with a 5.1 setup, this includes relatives and others in their 20s and 30s.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 08:35
"More than a third of people plan to buy an iPhone 5 despite not knowing anything about it, a new survey has found."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8668990/More-than-a-third-of-consumers-plan-iPhone-5-purchase.html

In contrast I wonder what percentage of the remaining audiophile population would respond by buying (rather than dreaming about) the next piece of nonsense from Nordost, Linn, etc?

As I said previously in this thread, the unpalatable truth is that the outside world is capable of producing products that people want to buy!

Clive
29-07-2011, 08:39
[COLOR="Blue"]

As I said previously in this thread, the unpalatable truth is that the outside world is capable of producing products that people [I]want to buy!
That's not accurate. People aren't born wanting an iPhone5, they've (or is that we've?) been nurtured into becoming Lemmings and having no ability to be individuals.

WAD62
29-07-2011, 08:39
Maybe I'm unusual but I only know one person with a 5.1 setup, this includes relatives and others in their 20s and 30s.

Don't think you are Clive, most people I know are perfectly happy listening to the TV set speakers, and can't be bothered with the hassle of 5.1. Probably in the same way as they can't be bothered with the hassle of a decent stereo. Even if they are into music or AV. In fact a lot of people I know don't even have the aspect ratio set up correctly on their TV sets either...but that's another story.

I think it's the wires, boxes and associated clutter that puts people off, people want a simple neat solution.

One of my mates is beyond help, both he and his missus like their music, not quite as obsessively as me perhaps, but still attend a few gigs, and have quite a few cds etc. In their kitchen is a BOSE CD/Radio Waveguide...I'll say no more. They'd become dissatisfied with the sound from their new Samsung 42" LCD, I mentioned that the in-built speakers on these flat screens were only an afterthought and that they should look into an AV receiver. My suggestion was a half decent Yamaha AV amp off ebay, and a couple of cheap stereo speakers to start off with, which in turn would also allow them to play their cds through something better than the Bose.

2 Days later I went round and he proudly showed me his new purchase, a Yamaha AV amp indeed, however he'd bought the £450 Yamaha AV soundbar!!! The actual amp has the subwoofer built into it!!! And the rest of the 5.1 is generated by a trick stick about 1.5" * 30" containing about 6 tiny little speakers, admittedly it does sit neatly below the TV, and it is better than the TV sound...marginally. When I asked why, the answer was 'no wires', they just couldn't envisage running wires around their lovely living room.

So there's simply no helping some people, their priorities are just different ;)

Marco
29-07-2011, 08:46
"More than a third of people plan to buy an iPhone 5 despite not knowing anything about it, a new survey has found."


Aw gawd.... :doh:

I laughed when I read that, but really it is *very* sad!

I've never understood the 'sheep-like' mentality of having to own the 'latest & greatest' new toy, whether it's actually of any use to you or not.

Why do people behave that way? For me, it stems from insecurity, low self-esteem, and the inability to think for oneself. But then, in life, I've always been more of a leader than a follower, and virtually immune from peer pressure.... ;)

Marco.

WAD62
29-07-2011, 08:47
That's not accurate. People aren't born wanting an iPhone5, they've (or is that we've?) been nurtured into becoming Lemmings and having no ability to be individuals.

Have to agree again Clive, apple's current strap line of 'if you haven't got an iPhone etc...' blasted at you from every advertising platform is rather galling.

As I said earlier saturation advertising works, and it actually trickles down to kids who are more vulnerable to advertising...'if you haven't got an iPhone...well you're a social outcast!!!' ;)

Marco
29-07-2011, 08:51
People aren't born wanting an iPhone5, they've (or is that we've?) been nurtured into becoming Lemmings and having no ability to be individuals.

Exactly! I'd love to get inside their heads, and see what's there, apart from fresh air!! :eyebrows:

Sad, sad, SAD............ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm afraid that I'm more likely to rebel against 'the norm', just to be different (an individual)!

Marco.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 08:59
That's not accurate. People aren't born wanting an iPhone5, they've (or is that we've?) been nurtured into becoming Lemmings and having no ability to be individuals.

If for a moment I accept the logic of your rather emotional statement (I prefer objectivity myself, but anyway) why is it then that our piss-poor little industry, having been shown the way by such luminaries as Apple (who started after Linn, in a garage and without an established factory) conspicuously fail to copy the clearly laid-out marketing techniques? Monumental arrogance is why.

It wasn’t even as if this industry had to invent decent marketing, was it? All they had to do was copy – and they even screwed up on that!

While Steve Jobs was figuring out the future, what were Linn doing? Single-speaker demo rooms! Which of course were okay until they stepped into multi-channel. And that’s just for starters. So why am I so dismissive of Linn?

Simple, they created the illusion that they alone had the keys to the ‘Golden Dawn’ of music reproduction enlightenment.

The press followed it, many dealers swallowed it and the public – gawd bless em’ bought it in shed loads.

Putting aside their curious slant on the characteristics of music reproduction (why a cello should be made to sound like a double bass being somehow clever) they failed. The industry and the press followed a false ‘God’ – and into the current wilderness.

If Steve Jobs needed guidance on what not to do, he needed only to study how our industry royally screwed-up in the 1980s and sowed the seeds of it’s own destruction.

It’s time our industry stopped looking for external scapegoats. Cut out the self-denial and stop trying to educate people wot don’t want to be educated! Except that … there isn’t time now. It’s over. Finished – other than for a few diehards clinging to the rock face.

----------

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 09:01
I've never understood the 'sheep-like' mentality of having to own the 'latest & greatest' new toy, whether it's actually of any use to you or not.

Why do people behave that way? For me, it stems from insecurity, low self-esteem, and the inability to think for oneself. Marco.

What, like many Linn owners perhaps?

NAIM owners as the proverbial 'walking wallet' with a never-ending escalator of upgrades?

Marco
29-07-2011, 09:26
Are you on a Linn/Naim scalping mission at the moment, Howard? ;)

Marco.

Canetoad
29-07-2011, 09:32
If Steve Jobs needed guidance on what not to do, he needed only to study how our industry royally screwed-up in the 1980s and sowed the seeds of it’s own destruction.
----------

It's not just the hifi industry. The same thing happened to the motorcycle and car industries. :doh:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
29-07-2011, 09:33
Except that … there isn’t time now. It’s over. Finished – other than for a few diehards clinging to the rock face.

----------

Time for what, nothing has changed, there always were just a few true enthusiasts. It is just the fringes were convinced to buy something like a NAD3020. And some wanna-bees and social climber bought Linn / Naim for effect. The sad people were those true enthusiast who genuinely bought into the bullshit.

There will always be audio enthusiasts who will look for musical excellence, they always were a small percentage and always will be.

Come backs will happen - the CD bullshit and disillusion has created a vinyl revival - the Naim amp bullshit and disillusion has created the valve revival.

This is obviously a generalisation as there are people who have always been vinyl and or valves. BUT look at the number of Naim to valve transitions. People are still stuck in the bullshit that nothing solid state can beat a Naim so the only way to break the mind set is to go valve.

There will be a backlash as there always is, it is human nature.

Clive
29-07-2011, 09:40
I see many of the apple gadget purchasers as victims of fashion and corporate advertising. Apple have done a great job for themselves and their investors. They have developed some cute UIs along the way. Maybe one day we'll extend our mis-selling laws to cover unreasonable coercion of gullible people. Howard, you may see this as an emotional reaction, I would say it's passionate and objective.

Marco
29-07-2011, 10:13
BUT look at the number of Naim to valve transitions. People are still stuck in the bullshit that nothing solid state can beat a Naim so the only way to break the mind set is to go valve.


You're not wrong, but as an ex-Naimee, don't include me in those statistics (although I doubt that you were). My volt face, and subsequent embracing of 'bottle power', was for entirely different reasons! ;)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 10:41
Are you on a Linn/Naim scalping mission at the moment, Howard? ;)

Marco.

YES - no question about it. Currently I can't think of a sensible reason not to. Can you? They set themselves up as the doyen of marketing expertise; wanting to be the Apple of the audio industry.

They failed in our industry

Apple didn't fail in theirs.

So a online kicking for Linn's 'culture' (less sure about Naim though) is in my view entirely justified.

If however it offends the vocal and influential AoS minority, then I'll happily switch my ranting to somewhere else.

---------------------

Clive
29-07-2011, 10:56
YES - no question about it. Currently I can't think of a sensible reason not to. Can you? They set themselves up as the doyen of marketing expertise; wanting to be the Apple of the audio industry.

They failed in our industry

Apple didn't fail in theirs.

So a verbal kicking for Linn's 'culture' (less sure about Naim though) is in my view entirely justified.

If however it offends the vocal few, then I'll switch my ranting elsewhere.

---------------------
Depends on your timescales Howard, in their heyday you wouldn't have said Linn were failing , Apple nearly went broke once, who's to say it won't happen again? Even Microsoft don't have the stranglehold they once had, mainly due to Google. Google are now becoming an evil empire to some now. Look at the once 2nd largest computer manufacturer - Digital Equipment - disappeared.

Any business with too much influence is rarely a good thing for consumers and competitors.

Marco
29-07-2011, 10:58
You're entitled to your opinions, Howard, but I think that there's been enough Linn/Naim bashing on forums to last us all a lifetime...

Let's respect the fact that some of our members use their equipment, and have chosen to do so as free thinkers, devoid of influence from marketing and a sheep-like mentality, and so don't deserve to have their carefully considered and legitimate choices 'bashed'.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 11:07
........ but I think that there's been enough Linn/Naim bashing on forums to last us all a lifetime... Cheers! :cool: Marco.

But, but ....... I only spotted the fun to be had recently. Such a pity. Oh go on Marco, please let me play. Let me be in the gang. Oh go on. I'll be your friend; I promise. However ......

Yes, it's true that I was late joining the crowd. And as usual, you do have a point Marco and I agree with you. Terrific fun though while it lasted wasn't it? Lots more fun to be had in due course re this, but not here necessarily.

Sincerely

Howard

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 11:13
Depends on your timescales Howard, in their heyday you wouldn't have said Linn were failing , Apple nearly went broke once, who's to say it won't happen again? Even Microsoft don't have the stranglehold they once had, mainly due to Google. Google are now becoming an evil empire to some now. Look at the once 2nd largest computer manufacturer - Digital Equipment - disappeared.

Any business with too much influence is rarely a good thing for consumers and competitors.

Timescales re Linn. Okay - in a micro sense in a tiny ignorant market, yes. On a macro scale in a global market? Er, no. No way.

Apple did indeed nearly go broke. But the man with vision clawed it back from the brink. They make products people want.

Meanwhile with Linn, they laid off circa 1/3 of their workforce i believe a while back. And they persist in making products that many people don't want. Except the Ittok arm perhaps - which might have been merely a fluke of design brilliance.

It's as stark as that - for me at least. And quite possibly for a large part of the buying public.

Anyway, who am I to say? My opinions are merely ..... opinions. However the facts speak for themselves, don't they?

Happy days gentlemen, happy days.

Marco
29-07-2011, 11:35
Ok, folks, can we get back on-topic now and leave Linn out of it? Cheers! :)

Marco.

WAD62
29-07-2011, 11:57
Apple did indeed nearly go broke. But the man with vision clawed it back from the brink. They make products people want.


...or They make people want their products ;)

Ali Tait
29-07-2011, 12:23
I see Apple as making fashion accessories more than anything else. Yes, Their pads and phones work well, but it's really more about how.they look isn't it. That's why they can charge a premium and get away with it. Look at Armani, Jimmy Choo etc. No brands like those are cheap, but people can't get enough. What that says about human nature is another matter..

Personally I've never bought an i anything. I did buy the first Android phone, and have stuck with Android ever since. It works well and is simple to use. Nuff said. I think Apple, like fashion in general, will wax and wane. I don't buy their stuff because I don't like what they stand for, but you have to admire how well they've done for themselves.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
29-07-2011, 12:40
Ok, folks, can we get back on-topic now and leave Linn out of it? Cheers! :)

Marco.

The off topic is the apple / computer stuff not Linn. Which seems to me very relevant to the demise of hi-fi mags.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 12:43
...or They make people want their products ;)

We aren't living in George Orwell's 1984 you know. An extension of what you say might be that such buyers are to put it lightly, just a bit dim? All of them? Surely not?

BTH K10A
29-07-2011, 12:43
Apple did indeed nearly go broke. But the man with vision clawed it back from the brink. They make products people want.
.

Lets not forget the real "the man with vision" was an Englishman called Jonathan Ive. It was his designs that brought apple into the mainstream market.

His influence was Dieter Ram's style and principles, namely that:

Good design

Is innovative - Rams states that possibilities for innovation in design are unlikely to be exhausted since technological development is always offering new opportunities for innovative design. He also highlights that innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology and can never be an end in and of itself.

Makes a product useful - A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasises the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.

Is aesthetic - Only well-executed objects can be beautiful. The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products used every day have an effect on people and their well-being.

Makes a product understandable - It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.

Is unobtrusive - Products and their design should be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user’s self-expression. Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools and are neither decorative objects nor works of art.
Is honest - Honest design should not attempt to make a product seem more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It should not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.

Is long-lasting - It should avoid being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even when the trend may be in favor for disposable products.

Is thorough down to the last detail - Dieter Rams states that nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance in the design of a product since care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.
Is environmentally friendly - Good design should make an important contribution to the preservation of the environment by conserving resources and minimizing physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.

Is as little design as possible - Dieter Rams makes the distinction between the common "Less is more" and his strongly advised "Less, but better" highlighting the fact that this approach focuses on the essential aspects thus, the products are not burdened with non-essentials. The desirable result would then be purer and simpler.

All this sits well with the modern "lifestyle" generation and the products have an identity.

B&O folow a similar idiom and they seem to have stores or outlets all over the UK.

Now how this can be applied to traditional HiFi and still produce a product that is affordable to the mainstream is the $64,000 question.

Clive
29-07-2011, 12:45
We aren't living in George Orwell's 1984 you know. An extension of what you say might be that such buyers are to put it lightly, just a bit dim? All of them? Surely not?
Did you say that you have an iPhone?

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 12:49
I don't buy their stuff because I don't like what they stand for, but you have to admire how well they've done for themselves.

But what DO they stand for? I'm far from clear.

And yes they've done well by figuring out (a) their target market and (b) figuring out what that market wants and (c) delivering that 'want' in a way and a price that the target market desires. Classic ethical marketing.

And the point of contrast remains. While some audio makers were telling dealers to tell customers 'how to listen' i.e continual foot-tapping and finger-clicking, Apple merely offered an option without condescension to a market that wasn't prepared to be talked down to.

Marco
29-07-2011, 12:49
The off topic is the apple / computer stuff not Linn. Which seems to me very relevant to the demise of hi-fi mags.

Richard, I have spoken on the matter, and won't ask again ;)

Marco.

WAD62
29-07-2011, 12:53
Richard, I have spoken on the matter, and won't ask again ;)

Marco.

I'll let it lie...

Now about my linn turntable...;)

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 13:18
Lets not forget the real "the man with vision" was an Englishman called Jonathan Ive. It was his designs that brought apple into the mainstream market.

His influence was Dieter Ram's style and principles, namely that:

Good design

Is innovative - Rams states that possibilities for innovation in design are unlikely to be exhausted since technological development is always offering new opportunities for innovative design. He also highlights that innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology and can never be an end in and of itself.

Makes a product useful - A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasises the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.

Is aesthetic - Only well-executed objects can be beautiful. The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products used every day have an effect on people and their well-being.

Makes a product understandable - It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.

Is unobtrusive - Products and their design should be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user’s self-expression. Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools and are neither decorative objects nor works of art.
Is honest - Honest design should not attempt to make a product seem more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It should not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.

Is long-lasting - It should avoid being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even when the trend may be in favor for disposable products.

Is thorough down to the last detail - Dieter Rams states that nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance in the design of a product since care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.
Is environmentally friendly - Good design should make an important contribution to the preservation of the environment by conserving resources and minimizing physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.

Is as little design as possible - Dieter Rams makes the distinction between the common "Less is more" and his strongly advised "Less, but better" highlighting the fact that this approach focuses on the essential aspects thus, the products are not burdened with non-essentials. The desirable result would then be purer and simpler.

All this sits well with the modern "lifestyle" generation and the products have an identity.

B&O folow a similar idiom and they seem to have stores or outlets all over the UK.

Now how this can be applied to traditional HiFi and still produce a product that is affordable to the mainstream is the $64,000 question.

---------------------

Possibly the most interesting post I've seen all year. I thank you most sincerely. Howard.

PS

Re the $64k question - it's too late. Meridian got closest I think - and then the money-men / bean counters got in the way perhaps?. Naim up there too and Rega - surely the cleverest UK audiophile maker. SME too I guess matches the above criteria.

Anyway, that's it folks for this week. I'll now slip reluctantly and quietly into my other world. Meanwhile, I'm listening to Internet Radio > 'detour Blues' and awaiting the call from my beloved Rosanne. Hey - life ain't so bad after all!

------------

worthingpagan
29-07-2011, 14:38
I really feel 2 channel is limited and will be gone shortly.

My 18 year niece came over a while ago and didn't have a clue what a record was.

This generation still love music but most have a totally different approach than we do.

Hope i'am wrong.


2 channel rules in my home, i've had all the 5.1 with speakers everywhere, i've only got 2 ears so stereo sounds more natural, imo. it's up to us, as the "elders" to demonstrate to the youth just what they will be missing in terms of sonic enjoyment by not trying to "look and hear" what else is available. It would also help if the hifi mags advertised some decent hifi that was more affordable. I used to buy a number of mags regularly, but over the last few years i've come to the conclusion (what with the economic climate and other factors) that I must be living on another planet compared to those who design, advertise and publish. If hifi looked more attainable, perhaps more younger people would view it as a serious option?

lurcher
29-07-2011, 14:42
But what DO they stand for? I'm far from clear.

IMHO, Restriction of choice and the marketing of said restrictions in such a way such that it is seen as a benefit.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
29-07-2011, 15:07
IMHO, Restriction of choice and the marketing of said restrictions in such a way such that it is seen as a benefit.

It strikes me that in any market good product or good bullshit gets you talked about, good marketing gets you established. At which point the paranoia steps in "how can I keep it" and so the restrictive practices, establishment of cartels, and the buying up of the industry voices starts. And when that runs out of steam them illegal contracts to make people only sell your product. Followed by inevitable dismissal and payback time.

So where have I seen this before :rolleyes:

So perhaps Apple will go through the same cycle.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 15:08
IMHO, Restriction of choice and the marketing of said restrictions in such a way such that it is seen as a benefit.

You've lost me. Sorry. A couple of uncomplicated examples would help me. Thanks. Howard.

Welder
29-07-2011, 15:12
Mark wrote;

“If hifi looked more attainable, perhaps more younger people would view it as a serious option?”

We haven’t done ourselves a lot of favours in this respect have we?

i thingy/computer feeding an HRT > D class amp > headphones. Good grief son that’s not HI Fi! :eek:
You need this £4000 and this £6000 and a pair of these £7000 :rolleyes:

Course, if you were to suggest that magazines like "Hi Fi whatever" were in any way responsible for reinforcing this myth……

Thankfully, some of those computer geeks and the spread of the internet have seriously weakened such audiophile propaganda. Amazing what mass access to mass media can do innit, apart from helping to put such magazines out of business ;)

lurcher
29-07-2011, 15:25
You've lost me. Sorry. A couple of uncomplicated examples would help me. Thanks. Howard.

Two simple ones.

1. Try to Install an appliction thats not from Apple's web store on an iphone
2. Try installing OSX on non apple hardware.

Lodgesound
29-07-2011, 15:30
On the subject of the young and the demise of older technology as regards this thread.

I had a very interesting encounter with a girl the other evening in a pub. She was wearing an XRAY Specs T-shirt and I commented that I had a tape of them in my collection and that they were from the 80's etc etc.

The discussion went on to music collecting and she said that she only collected records because - and I almost quote verbatim - she said she did'nt like the sound of CD or digital sound and that she did not regard the aquisition and collection of digital media, be it on an Ipod or a hard drive to be valid from her point of view. In other words she wanted to collect the physical asset and moreover she wanted it to be specifically on vinyl.

She was 18 years old and extremely well informed about what to her generation is retro-technology. This is not the first time I have come across this and I am willing to bet that it is becoming a very serious trend. As I have said previously there is something fundamentally wrong with the entire technology of downloading files as opposed to actually collecting "a thing" in that people just don't seem to attach value of any kind to files or file based storage.

In some ways this makes no sense whatsoever yet when looked at from a Human perspective it seems it does'nt satisfy the "Magpie" present in each and every one of us to a lesser or greater degree.

Maybe the people and corporations who are responsible for the manufacture of music should consider this.

Welder
29-07-2011, 15:33
Or with music ;)

J_h8MtU5Xyc

sq225917
29-07-2011, 15:44
It's quality vs quantity.

For a few decades now we've been moving towards a state where the quantity of everything is more important than the quality. it's easy to sell someone 5000 of this or squeeze 10,000 songs onto one disc. You can't argue with the numbers and therefore it's easy and compelling to sell, marketers love that shit. (trust me).

In fact the last thing that you really want to do is to steer your customers towards a notion of quality; certainly if you are mass market you don't anyway. Discerning customers, who seek out quality? Whatever next they'll be ignoring your sales bullshit and buying whatever they feel like.

There are relatively few brands, anywhere doing anything that sell just on quality. I can think of maybe two audio companies who do.. Sure there's plenty of brands who sell on a notion of luxury, but that's actually a very different psychological proposition and an essentially artificial construct.

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 16:06
Two simple ones.

1. Try to Install an appliction thats not from Apple's web store on an iphone
2. Try installing OSX on non apple hardware.

Yes but .......


I can't fit a Leica lens to my Fuji Pro
I can't fit a Ford gearbox to my Audi nor vice-versa I guess and ..
I can't ribbon tweeters to my Vandersteen 2ci Signature speakers.


So what gives?

I'm confused. But possibly that's no bad thing these days. Thanks anyway.

lurcher
29-07-2011, 16:47
Yes, but if Leica decided to produce a lens for your Fuji you would be free to fit the new lens to your camera. And the same for the other two examples.

BTH K10A
29-07-2011, 17:06
Two simple ones.
Try installing OSX on non apple hardware.

That's an issue with the non apple hardware manufacturers. Apple released bootcamp to enable windows to run on a mac, MS could do the same for OSX unless they are not capable of running both systems.

Anyway, why would anyone want a PC for home use nowadays? ;)

Neil McCauley
29-07-2011, 17:07
anyway, why would anyone want a pc for home use nowadays? ;)

Precisely !

David Price
29-07-2011, 17:09
Hi guys - well it's Friday evening so I can post something in this very interesting debate!

I think it's interesting that - when I want to buy a new piece of Apple technology - I go to the store. I could buy online, via Amazon or whatever. I could even possibly (if I really look around) get a discount. But I always find myself going to the store.

What's all that about then? And why don't most hi-fi/audio shoppers go to a store deliberately, when they can buy online? There must be a moral in there somewhere for all of us...

David

Barry
29-07-2011, 17:12
Anyway, why would anyone want a PC for home use nowadays?

Why not?

lurcher
29-07-2011, 17:34
That's an issue with the non apple hardware manufacturers.

No its not, OSX is tied to apple inserted hardware, so specifically broken to prevent it working on generic hardware. In the past Apple have litigated to oblivion companies that tried to produce clone hardware. So its squarly a issue caused by decisions on Apples part.

lurcher
29-07-2011, 17:37
Anyway, why would anyone want a PC for home use nowadays? ;)

See second part of

"IMHO, Restriction of choice and the marketing of said restrictions in such a way such that it is seen as a benefit."

Ali Tait
29-07-2011, 18:18
IMHO, Restriction of choice and the marketing of said restrictions in such a way such that it is seen as a benefit.

Howard, my point exactly. This is why I'm in favour of Android, it's open source. It will bury Apple eventually, at least as far as phones are concerned IMHO.

Ali Tait
29-07-2011, 18:20
http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/cell-phones/android-growth-rate-continues-to-accelerate/12166.html

chelsea
29-07-2011, 18:36
Hi guys - well it's Friday evening so I can post something in this very interesting debate!

I think it's interesting that - when I want to buy a new piece of Apple technology - I go to the store. I could buy online, via Amazon or whatever. I could even possibly (if I really look around) get a discount. But I always find myself going to the store.

What's all that about then? And why don't most hi-fi/audio shoppers go to a store deliberately, when they can buy online? There must be a moral in there somewhere for all of us...

David

Plymouth population 250,000
How many hi fi shops - 0
Richer sounds - 1


:(

David Price
29-07-2011, 19:39
In Bristol, with a population of about 450,000, there are now (I think) 2 specialist hi-fi shops, and 1 Richer Sounds.

When I was a student there in the eighties, there were 6 hi-fi shops and 1 Richer Sounds.

Whatever it is, Richer Sounds doesn't seem to be doing it wrong...

David Price
29-07-2011, 19:41
PS - and there are now 3 Apple Stores (when there were none) and the 1 of 2 Sony stores recently closed down...

David Price
29-07-2011, 19:42
...which takes us back neatly to why the publishers of 'Choice apparently think there's no money in hi-fi magazine publishing.

Marco
29-07-2011, 19:44
Good evening, David... Good to see you here! How is one, old chap? :)

Marco.

Welder
29-07-2011, 19:48
Bristol Harbour Festival this weekend!
Live music! http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/6a35c242066ce84ff6a5259c9c49b02a0589f5aa8e3e356a16 163110ee4125732g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=cjlpns7rmct1d0z&thumb=5)
http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/881865f09eb214199cf819de58edbd1bc84989f0d98c01dc0c b231ab94fba87a2g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=7gg8h7qgo76zq25&thumb=5)

Unfortunately there won’t be any copies of Hi Fi choice on sale :doh:

(did I get away with that :eyebrows:)

chelsea
29-07-2011, 19:48
In Bristol, with a population of about 450,000, there are now (I think) 2 specialist hi-fi shops, and 1 Richer Sounds.

When I was a student there in the eighties, there were 6 hi-fi shops and 1 Richer Sounds.

Whatever it is, Richer Sounds doesn't seem to be doing it wrong...

If they had stayed 2 channel i'am guessing they would have struggled.
They quickly adapted to av and tv's.

chelsea
29-07-2011, 19:51
...which takes us back neatly to why the publishers of 'Choice apparently think there's no money in hi-fi magazine publishing.

Do you still see a long future for your mag david?

MCRU
29-07-2011, 20:02
Huddersfield (which was once the largest town in the UK) has had 1 hifi shop since I was born, Huddersfield HiFi, another opened 3 doors away 2 years ago, it shut a few months ago. Nearest Richersounds is Leeds although I would never shop there myself. Jordan Acoustics is opening branches as others seem to be closing, most of Jordan's gear is high end so it proves that there is still a market for the high street but maybe for the more well off who perhaps never go on the web and prefer the more traditional face to face approach, these punters are far less likely to mess the staff around listening to gear that they have no intention of buying in the store and are also the people who keep the magazines alive IMO.

For what it's worth I think some of the mags lost the plot by concentrating on reviewing £30k speakers and £40k amps that review well but most of the population can only dream about, HiFi+ as an example which I no longer read, I much prefer HiFi World and News as they have good vinyl sections and actually review real world products that one can actually afford.

David, it's been far too long young man, don't leave it 9 months before you return please, and can you get Raph back as I think Marco scared him off...:)

Hopefully see you at Whittlebury for a pint or 3.

SCIDB
29-07-2011, 20:04
If they had stayed 2 channel i'am guessing they would have struggled.
They quickly adapted to av and tv's.

Hi,

I can agree with that. I remember them selling last years (or year befores) models as well as a few current biggies at the time. They expanded into most big towns & cities. The parent company bought a number of Hifi brands and off they went.

AV & tvs came in and they seem to be doing alright. The Cambridge Audio stuff looks very good value for money.

Dean

David Price
29-07-2011, 20:11
Hi Marco - one's very good thanks! And your good self?

Hi Chelsea - yes.

We're in the happy position of our publisher not having to justify the magazine to a large board of directors or shareholders, who are likely more worried about short(ish) term profit than the magazine itself.

As you know, Noel Keywood is the publisher and he's also a hi-fi journalist of 40 years standing - he doesn't need to keep pleading for the continued existence of the mag to a bunch of money men.

World doesn't have a bank loan, has healthy cashflow and we've barely been touched by the recession in terms of readership - it's holding strong.

So - ironically perhaps - us being a small independent is actually a benefit in market conditions such as this. This is something I don't say very often - in many ways we'd love the big punch of a large publisher such as Future, but in other ways we don't have to justify our continued existence to a bunch of men in suits who really want to replace you with a PlayStation 4 magazine in 2012!

I think one thing is for sure - Hi-Fi World will be a largely (but possibly not completely) online publication in ten years. I suspect we'll be online, on iPad, Kindle and so on, but with possibly a glossy yearbook for the Christmas stocking, once a year...

As soon as World migrates to online, it's going to be a very different user experience, although the content will be pretty similar. Publishing is changing and as soon as it can go online en masse, it will.

I don't think publishers of any type have any particular love of printers, distributors, warehousing and newsagents - all costs they'd love to circumvent...

(Personally I love paper magazines thought - so I do hope we can keep ours as long as possible...)

David Price
29-07-2011, 20:25
...changing the subject a bit - back to what people want to buy, and look at this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14340470

Makes you think, doesn't it?

I love Apple products (albeit with grave reservations about iPod sound quality), but you've got to hand it to them - they know how to make things that people want! it used to be Sony doing this...

(All the more amazing that Sony has let Apple take over the CE audio market, but methinks that's due to the deaths of Norio Ohga and Akio Morita, who were visionaries in the way that Steve Jobs can only dream about - but I digress.)

Nice to be back on AOS, but it's so addictive I have to force myself to go cold turkey for long periods for the good of my marital relationship, friends and family!

chelsea
29-07-2011, 20:34
Hi Marco - one's very good thanks! And your good self?

Hi Chelsea - yes.

We're in the happy position of our publisher not having to justify the magazine to a large board of directors or shareholders, who are likely more worried about short(ish) term profit than the magazine itself.

As you know, Noel Keywood is the publisher and he's also a hi-fi journalist of 40 years standing - he doesn't need to keep pleading for the continued existence of the mag to a bunch of money men.

World doesn't have a bank loan, has healthy cashflow and we've barely been touched by the recession in terms of readership - it's holding strong.

So - ironically perhaps - us being a small independent is actually a benefit in market conditions such as this. This is something I don't say very often - in many ways we'd love the big punch of a large publisher such as Future, but in other ways we don't have to justify our continued existence to a bunch of men in suits who really want to replace you with a PlayStation 4 magazine in 2012!

I think one thing is for sure - Hi-Fi World will be a largely (but possibly not completely) online publication in ten years. I suspect we'll be online, on iPad, Kindle and so on, but with possibly a glossy yearbook for the Christmas stocking, once a year...

As soon as World migrates to online, it's going to be a very different user experience, although the content will be pretty similar. Publishing is changing and as soon as it can go online en masse, it will.

I don't think publishers of any type have any particular love of printers, distributors, warehousing and newsagents - all costs they'd love to circumvent...

(Personally I love paper magazines thought - so I do hope we can keep ours as long as possible...)

Excellent.

I understand publications going online but i much prefer to have a book,mag or newspaper in my hand.

MCRU
29-07-2011, 21:14
Excellent.

I understand publications going online but i much prefer to have a book,mag or newspaper in my hand.

I would NEVER read a mag via a PC monitor much like I think the Kindle is stupid, give me paper and make it glossy preferably!

SCIDB
29-07-2011, 21:18
...which takes us back neatly to why the publishers of 'Choice apparently think there's no money in hi-fi magazine publishing.

Hi,

I'm not surprised that Hi-fi Choice is up for the chop. It looks like the lowest selling title that Future Publishing own. The average figures for last year were 7267 per issue. Only 4826 were people from the UK & Republic of Ireland.

What Hi-fi did alot better at 44764 with 39966 being UK & Rep of Ireland sales

Hi-Fi News figures are from 2009 are 9438 with 5559 from the UK & Rep of Ireland.

There some Hi-Fi World figures from 2000. These are 12,177 with 9824 from the UK & Rep of Ireland.

Dean
I got these figures from the ABC website.

worthingpagan
29-07-2011, 22:22
Excellent.

I understand publications going online but i much prefer to have a book,mag or newspaper in my hand.


Yes, preferably something with content that is remotely affordable, including the mag itself ;)

Stratmangler
29-07-2011, 22:30
Excellent.

I understand publications going online but i much prefer to have a book,mag or newspaper in my hand.

I'd much rather be holding my pickle in my hand :eyebrows:

Marco
30-07-2011, 09:02
Hi Marco - one's very good thanks! And your good self?


Fine and dandy, old boy! The forum has grown a bit since you were last here, eh? :)


Nice to be back on AOS, but it's so addictive I have to force myself to go cold turkey for long periods for the good of my marital relationship, friends and family!


Lol! It's good to know that you've been looking in, matey, but don't leave it so long next time before you pop in and say hello! :cool:

Marco.

prestonchipfryer
30-07-2011, 09:11
I am definitely more in favour of the printed word. By printed word I mean just that; printed on paper, whatever sort of publication - books, magazines, newspapers, etc. It is just nice to read from a printed page, and for people to say that printing is old-fashioned; well I say it is not - it's the only way for me. Who TF wants to look at a screen to read for more than a few minutes? Not me, that's for sure.

:steam:

Tim
30-07-2011, 10:57
Anyway, why would anyone want a PC for home use nowadays? ;)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/facepalm-1.jpg

Marco
30-07-2011, 11:08
I am definitely more in favour of the printed word. By printed word I mean just that; printed on paper, whatever sort of publication - books, magazines, newspapers, etc. It is just nice to read from a printed page, and for people to say that printing is old-fashioned; well I say it is not - it's the only way for me. Who TF wants to look at a screen to read for more than a few minutes? Not me, that's for sure.
:steam:

+1 (with knobs on!)

When I read books or magazines, I like to stretch out on the sofa, in comfort whilst listening to music, often with a beer or glass of wine by my side, not sitting perched upright at a desk, oggling at a bloody computer screen! :rolleyes:

Boredom would set in rather quickly (as well as some discomfort)....

So, long may HFW and HFN (the only two hi-fi mags which interest me) be available on a paper format :)

Marco.

SCIDB
30-07-2011, 11:15
Hi,

I too prefer a magazine to read overall. But I can see mags going more to online. It is going to an interesting time for a number of mags.

David Price
30-07-2011, 11:24
...a fascinating vox pop!

Here we are online, enjoying the amazing interactivity the medium has to offer, all saying we prefer the printed word!

Marco
30-07-2011, 11:27
It's a funny thing... I can happily read the content written on some forums for hours, but put an on-line hi-fi (or music) magazine in front of me on the screen, and I get bored with it very quickly - it just doesn't hold the same interest as its equivalent paper format :scratch:

There's obviously the presence of some psychological effect....

Oh, and I also like collecting mags and keeping them for future reference!

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
30-07-2011, 11:37
It's a funny thing... I can happily read the content written on some forums for hours, but put an on-line hi-fi (or music) magazine in front of me on the screen, and I get bored with it very quickly - it just doesn't hold the same interest as its equivalent paper format :scratch:

There's obviously the presence of some psychological effect....

Oh, and I also like collecting mags and keeping them for future reference!

Marco.

IMO the format and even the concept has to change to make it more instant, which is modern communication. It should be a page or two of instant information update daily or at least weekly, pictures and reviews, with updatable blog type content from readers. With archive of all product reviews and easy referenced search. The concept of a monthly magazine does not translate to online. The idea of just using so called expert reviewers should change, there is no greater expert than a long term user.

So the concept needs to be a forum concept more than a magazine concept with review and tech discussion sections. The world of the forum and the magazine need to combine and it is the magazine publishers who need to do most of the changes, they are stuck in a mind set and into revenue streams that no longer apply. On-line is different.

BTH K10A
30-07-2011, 11:54
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/facepalm-1.jpg

Ah.... a classic shot of a Windows 7 user after his PC crashes yet again while trying to install yet another fix. :D

BTH K10A
30-07-2011, 12:07
It's a funny thing... I can happily read the content written on some forums for hours, but put an on-line hi-fi (or music) magazine in front of me on the screen, and I get bored with it very quickly - it just doesn't hold the same interest as its equivalent paper format :scratch:

There's obviously the presence of some psychological effect....

Oh, and I also like collecting mags and keeping them for future reference!

Marco.

I think it's a far more relaxing experience sitting down reading a proper (paper) magazine than scrolling through pages on a computer.

Although I've never read a copy, it seems that Paul Messengers subscription magazine hificritic has survived about five years now and may be the way of the future for other magazines by offering a targeted traditional magazine alongside a downloadable version.

Welder
30-07-2011, 12:08
“...a fascinating vox pop!

Here we are online, enjoying the amazing interactivity the medium has to offer, all saying we prefer the printed word!”

Wot he wrote :)

“IMO the format and even the concept has to change to make it more instant, which is modern communication. It should be a page or two of instant information update daily or at least weekly, pictures and reviews, with updatable blog type content from readers. With archive of all product reviews and easy referenced search. The concept of a monthly magazine does not translate to online. The idea of just using so called expert reviewers should change, there is no greater expert than a long term user.

So the concept needs to be a forum concept more than a magazine concept with review and tech discussion sections. The world of the forum and the magazine need to combine and it is the magazine publishers who need to do most of the changes, they are stuck in a mind set and into revenue streams that no longer apply. On-line is different.”

And wot he wrote :)

As for the notion that the printed word is somehow sacred and must be preserved; well depends wots bin writ dunnit (?)

Of course I can understand those who like to browse a well written and informative journal in comfort and keep it as a possible reference for a later date, thing is, most of the current publications are neither well written, or informative; would 60% advertising and a few pictures of systems that are irrelevant to the average income audiophile seem a reasonable description?
It's a bit like collecting porn mags. Far better getting a bloody great big screen and watching it from the comfort of your sofa with a remote in your hand; well one hand anyway ;)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
30-07-2011, 12:13
BTW none of this is a new concept. I talked about it and discussed it in 1998/9 with David Rosam (who reviewed under the pen name of Dave Wiley) and he went on to publish Cyber-Fi with Jonathan Kettle as editor. But if we are only just getting ready for it now we definitely weren't ready for it then. It only lasted a few on-line issues. Maybe someone should look into relaunching it.

http://gulib.georgetown.edu/newjour/c/msg00721.html

EDIT - 'Struth! just checked, it was 1995.

worthingpagan
30-07-2011, 13:45
I think it's a far more relaxing experience sitting down reading a proper (paper) magazine than scrolling through pages on a computer.



I think my dad would agree with you...........he sits in the toilet for hours having a good read, at least that's what I think he does :eek:

David Price
30-07-2011, 14:23
Hi Richard,

I agree with you completely - but I think you misunderstand me when I say 'magazine' - I use it in the sense of a collection/compendium of articles, rather than a physical object made of paper pages.

Hi-Fi World magazine will be just as much a magazine online as it is a magazine on paper - in the sense that it's a 'storehouse' of information (I think that's the etymological origin of term, possibly from Arabic IIRC?).

You're right to say it will have to make the most of the medium, inasmuch as it won't be a simple monthly update - it will much more interactive and multimedia than that, and updated daily of course... I don't think Future Publishing's idea of just dumping Hi-Fi Choice content on TechRadar and forgetting about it was exactly making best use of the medium...

There's a good way to go before we transition to this, but I for one won't be sad to miss crushing monthly deadlines, needed to reach our short timeslot booked on those huge printing presses... GK Chesterton once said "journalism is literature in a hurry", and he was right about the latter bit! I will miss those magazines, though.