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sprint
19-07-2011, 10:06
I have 4 speaker posts per channel on the amp and the speakers have 6, tri-wiirable, amp MF Nu-Vista integrated and speakers KEF Reference 205's.

What is the best/correct way to bi-wire?

Use the separate posts and cables on the amp or just join the cables and use one set of posts or does it matter?

At the speaker end should I link the base and mid-range speakers and have separate connections for them and the high frequency speaker or link the mid and high range speakers and have separate connections for the base and mid/high range speakers?

John
19-07-2011, 11:32
I think try and use the same or similar cable between the binding posts
In the past I use to make up pure silver soft annealed cables for this and really enjoyed the results from this and worked out a lot cheaper than buying the manufactures cables

Beobloke
19-07-2011, 11:41
Strange - I'm getting an odd sense of deja vu. Anyway:

Use cable with lots of strands and a nice big cross-sectional area from the power amp to the bass terminals only.

Use cable with less strands but ones that are nice and thick (or one thick strand of single core if you like) to the mid and treble terminals.

;)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-07-2011, 12:50
All you do when you conventionally bi-wire by using two sets of the same cable is double the capacitance and halve the inductance and resistance, so you change the LCR characteristics of the cable load so you change the music for better or worse. You also with some designs of crossover take the earth junction between the two (or three) crossover legs from the speaker and back to the amplifier which can also have a sonic influence and improvement.

There is only one way to get this latter benefit without the LCR changes and that is to use a cable that is made up of separately insulated cores then these cores can be split between the drivers

anthonyTD
19-07-2011, 13:22
All you do when you conventionally bi-wire by using two sets of the same cable is double the capacitance and halve the inductance and resistance, so you change the LCR characteristics of the cable load so you change the music for better or worse. You also with some designs of crossover take the earth junction between the two (or three) crossover legs from the speaker and back to the amplifier which can also have a sonic influence and improvement.

There is only one way to get this latter benefit without the LCR changes and that is to use a cable that is made up of separately insulated cores then these cores can be split between the drivers
Quite agree!
A...

HighFidelityGuy
19-07-2011, 13:54
The second pair of binding posts on the amp are there purely for convenience to make bi-wiring easier. They will no doubt be wired to the other pair inside the amp if it's a standard stereo amp. So joining both pairs of cables to the same binding posts isn't going to be of much of a benefit compared to separating them. I would recommend that you keep it simple and wire the mid/high frequency cables to one pair and the bass cables to the other pair. Then at the speaker end remove all the jumper bars from the binding posts so that you have 6 separate posts per speaker. Make a sort length of wire (the same as you use for the high frequency run from the amp) and use this jumper cable to join the high frequency post to the mid frequency post. Repeat this for the other speaker. Ensure that you use the same lengths of wire for left and right.

As for cable types, some people recommend using the same cable for both runs. Others recommend different gauges and/or strand types. This is something I would recommend that you experiment with. By keeping the cables separate at the amp end you will make this easier. It would also make moving to bi-amping easier in the future if you wanted to try that.

As has been mentioned earlier, thick gauge multi-standed cables work well for bass and cables with fewer and thicker individual strands work well for higher frequencies.

DMN (http://www.dnm.co.uk/acatalog/Cables.html) make some nice solid core speaker cable that would be good for the mid/highs and Mark Grant (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_21&products_id=169) sells some good thick gauge cable that should be good for the bass.

As for connectors, I like to keep it simple with THESE (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Compass-Audio-UK/_i.html?_nkw=beryllium&submit=Search&_sid=180710989) and some heat shrink. However you will need to think how you want to handle the termination of the jumpers as you won't be able to connect two pairs of banana plugs to the mid posts. You will either need to solder the jumpers to the mid plug or use spade connectors at one end of the jumpers. I would do the latter just in case you want to tri-wire/tri-amp later. I hope that makes sense. :)

sprint
20-07-2011, 09:06
The second pair of binding posts on the amp are there purely for convenience to make bi-wiring easier. They will no doubt be wired to the other pair inside the amp if it's a standard stereo amp. So joining both pairs of cables to the same binding posts isn't going to be of much of a benefit compared to separating them. I would recommend that you keep it simple and wire the mid/high frequency cables to one pair and the bass cables to the other pair. Then at the speaker end remove all the jumper bars from the binding posts so that you have 6 separate posts per speaker. Make a sort length of wire (the same as you use for the high frequency run from the amp) and use this jumper cable to join the high frequency post to the mid frequency post. Repeat this for the other speaker. Ensure that you use the same lengths of wire for left and right.

As for cable types, some people recommend using the same cable for both runs. Others recommend different gauges and/or strand types. This is something I would recommend that you experiment with. By keeping the cables separate at the amp end you will make this easier. It would also make moving to bi-amping easier in the future if you wanted to try that.

As has been mentioned earlier, thick gauge multi-standed cables work well for bass and cables with fewer and thicker individual strands work well for higher frequencies.

DMN (http://www.dnm.co.uk/acatalog/Cables.html) make some nice solid core speaker cable that would be good for the mid/highs and Mark Grant (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_21&products_id=169) sells some good thick gauge cable that should be good for the bass.

As for connectors, I like to keep it simple with THESE (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Compass-Audio-UK/_i.html?_nkw=beryllium&submit=Search&_sid=180710989) and some heat shrink. However you will need to think how you want to handle the termination of the jumpers as you won't be able to connect two pairs of banana plugs to the mid posts. You will either need to solder the jumpers to the mid plug or use spade connectors at one end of the jumpers. I would do the latter just in case you want to tri-wire/tri-amp later. I hope that makes sense. :)

Thanks for the reply.

I have some Van Den Hul Teatrack bi-wire cable so I would be using this, at this stage, throughout.

You have advised making jumper leads from the same speaker cable to connect the mid/high speakers rather than use the supplied jumper bars?

The ones supplied with the KEF 205's are a good quality heavy duty gold plated affair so does that recommendation still apply and if so why would a short length of cable wire be better and as you have indicated I will have a problem doing this as I will not be able to fit two banana plugs so I would have a spade/banana speaker cable jumpers?

Why would this be better that the original supplied solid gold plated jumper bars?

HighFidelityGuy
20-07-2011, 09:48
Hi Andy,

The jumper bars will only be made of brass which is far less conductive than the fancy silver plated hybrid copper carbon conductors in your cable. High frequencies like to travel along the outside ("skin") of the conductor. This is called "skin effect". So proper cable will degrade the high frequencies far less than jumper bars.

You have to remember that most of the sensory cues that your brain interprets as direction information are taken from the high frequencies. This effects stereo imaging. So to me it seems like madness to spend money on nice cable to go between your amp and speakers if your going to create a weak link to one of the most important parts of the chain. Lots of us here have tried comparing cable jumpers to bar jumpers and have found that cable jumpers allow more detail though.

It is of course up to you though and I'd recommend that you try both ways to determine what you think works best in your system. All you need to do is cut a short length off the end of each cable and terminate one end with banana's and one end with spades. Connect the spades to the mid terminals first, then the banana end to the high terminal. Then connect the long lengths from your amp to the bass and bid terminals. Your mid terminals should allow two cables to be connected in this way but I'd recommend that you check first. The alternative is to daisy chain the jumper cable off the mid cable by soldering it into the mid cables banana plug at the same time as the main cable. Whether that's possible will depend on the gauge of your cable. Also, don't forget to check for cable directionality when making all the bits. :)

Actually, I've just thought of an alternative. If you really don't want to make the cable jumpers then it would probably be better the use the jumper bars between the mid and bass terminals and connect your speaker cables to the mid and high terminals. That will also ensure that the delicate high frequencies get to the speakers down quality cable. Bass frequencies travel down the centre of the conductor so these (in theory) should be degraded less by the jumper bars.

Another option would be to do one run of wire from your amp to the speakers and then use jumpers for the other two connections. This will have lower capacitance than running two sets of cables but is obviously not bi-wiring.

Or you could use my ultra minimalist method and wire the mid and high cables inside the speaker cabinet to the bass binding posts. Then you don't need any jumpers which is even better. ;) Again though, this isn't bi-wiring but in my opinion bi-wiring is over rated as all it does is change the capacitance/inductance of the cable that the amp sees. Bi-amping is a different story all together. That definitely has some advantages in some scenarios.

As with most things in hi-fi there are a million and one ways to do everything. You just have to try some different methods and trust your ears. :cool:

sprint
20-07-2011, 14:13
Hi Andy,

The jumper bars will only be made of brass which is far less conductive than the fancy silver plated hybrid copper carbon conductors in your cable. High frequencies like to travel along the outside ("skin") of the conductor. This is called "skin effect". So proper cable will degrade the high frequencies far less than jumper bars.

You have to remember that most of the sensory cues that your brain interprets as direction information are taken from the high frequencies. This effects stereo imaging. So to me it seems like madness to spend money on nice cable to go between your amp and speakers if your going to create a weak link to one of the most important parts of the chain. Lots of us here have tried comparing cable jumpers to bar jumpers and have found that cable jumpers allow more detail though.

It is of course up to you though and I'd recommend that you try both ways to determine what you think works best in your system. All you need to do is cut a short length off the end of each cable and terminate one end with banana's and one end with spades. Connect the spades to the mid terminals first, then the banana end to the high terminal. Then connect the long lengths from your amp to the bass and bid terminals. Your mid terminals should allow two cables to be connected in this way but I'd recommend that you check first. The alternative is to daisy chain the jumper cable off the mid cable by soldering it into the mid cables banana plug at the same time as the main cable. Whether that's possible will depend on the gauge of your cable. Also, don't forget to check for cable directionality when making all the bits. :)

Actually, I've just thought of an alternative. If you really don't want to make the cable jumpers then it would probably be better the use the jumper bars between the mid and bass terminals and connect your speaker cables to the mid and high terminals. That will also ensure that the delicate high frequencies get to the speakers down quality cable. Bass frequencies travel down the centre of the conductor so these (in theory) should be degraded less by the jumper bars.

Another option would be to do one run of wire from your amp to the speakers and then use jumpers for the other two connections. This will have lower capacitance than running two sets of cables but is obviously not bi-wiring.

Or you could use my ultra minimalist method and wire the mid and high cables inside the speaker cabinet to the bass binding posts. Then you don't need any jumpers which is even better. ;) Again though, this isn't bi-wiring but in my opinion bi-wiring is over rated as all it does is change the capacitance/inductance of the cable that the amp sees. Bi-amping is a different story all together. That definitely has some advantages in some scenarios.

As with most things in hi-fi there are a million and one ways to do everything. You just have to try some different methods and trust your ears. :cool:

Thanks for the replies.

I will have a try with the jumpers bars between the mid and base speaker terminals before making up any new cable jumpers.

I note that you suggest connecting the base/mid cable to the mid rather than the base terminal?

Is this again so that the higher frequency element goes directly to mid rather than to the base and then to the mid via the jumpers?

HighFidelityGuy
20-07-2011, 14:41
Thanks for the replies.

I will have a try with the jumpers bars between the mid and base speaker terminals before making up any new cable jumpers.

I note that you suggest connecting the base/mid cable to the mid rather than the base terminal?

Is this again so that the higher frequency element goes directly to mid rather than to the base and then to the mid via the jumpers?

Yep, that's correct. The mid frequencies are the most important of all, so I would definitely recommend connecting the speaker cable directly to the mid terminal. Don't go to the mid terminal via the jumper bars. :)

icehockeyboy
21-07-2011, 10:48
Andy,As Beobloke said....Deja Vu! :)
I'm with them at that other place as far as bi wiring is concerned.....damned if I can hear ANY difference at all!

What I did hear though, when I "shotgunned" the bi wire cable (joining 2 of the 4 together at one end, correct me if I am wrong here boys!) was an added weight to the sound.
Hard to describe what I mean here, I suppose the opposite to a lighter sound..........?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 11:19
Andy,As Beobloke said....Deja Vu! :)
I'm with them at that other place as far as bi wiring is concerned.....damned if I can hear ANY difference at all!

What I did hear though, when I "shotgunned" the bi wire cable (joining 2 of the 4 together at one end, correct me if I am wrong here boys!) was an added weight to the sound.
Hard to describe what I mean here, I suppose the opposite to a lighter sound..........?

That is not a "shotgun".

What would you expect if you double the amount of metal in the cable run which halves the resistance. I would have thought it was obvious, lower resistance more metal so more current capability. Low frequencies are mostly current driven, high frequencies are mostly voltage driven.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 11:43
If anyone is interested a Shotgun cable applies to screened cables.

A normal interconnect is a centre core and a screen. The screen serves two purposes, to earth out any RF and noise pick up which the screen protects the centre core from, and to carry the signal neg return. A shotgun interconnect is two cables where one centre core carries the pos and the other carries the neg. The two screens are connected together and carry no signal and are only soldered at one end to the neg or in some cases not connected at all, depending on design. If the screens are connected at one end then if your system is based on a star earth then the plug end with the screen connection should be connected at the item nearest the star hub. If the earth system is based on a ground plane that it doesn't matter which way around the cable is connected.

The name originated due to the double barrelled nature of this type of cable. In my cables SSP is a shotgun.

icehockeyboy
21-07-2011, 20:05
I stand corrected.

I was just repeating what I had heard the method I described as being called. :)

What is the term for what I described then?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-07-2011, 20:22
I stand corrected.

I was just repeating what I had heard the method I described as being called. :)

What is the term for what I described then?

A bi-wire set of speaker cable.

icehockeyboy
22-07-2011, 10:02
A bi-wire set of speaker cable.

So what is it called when the left and right cables of each side of the bi wire cable is joined together?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-07-2011, 10:07
So what is it called when the left and right cables of each side of the bi wire cable is joined together?

Mono

worthingpagan
22-07-2011, 10:49
So what is it called when the left and right cables of each side of the bi wire cable is joined together?


Craig, why would you join the l&r channels together?:scratch:

Alex_UK
22-07-2011, 11:10
I'd have thought it would be "short circuit?" :scratch:

WAD62
22-07-2011, 11:40
Low frequencies are mostly current driven, high frequencies are mostly voltage driven.

Very useful information Richard...:cool:

icehockeyboy
22-07-2011, 23:11
Nooooo! :)
I mean the 2 left hand wires together, and then the 2 right hand wires together!

Richard, as an expert in these things I am surprised at your answer, and am hoping it is not just sarcasm after my honest opinion about something that happened a long time back?
After all, I only expressed my honest findings and had no idea you had been banned from that forum and had no chance of replying. :rolleyes:

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-07-2011, 23:28
Nooooo! :)
I mean the 2 left hand wires together, and then the 2 right hand wires together!

Richard, as an expert in these things I am surprised at your answer, and am hoping it is not just sarcasm after my honest opinion about something that happened a long time back?
After all, I only expressed my honest findings and had no idea you had been banned from that forum and had no chance of replying. :rolleyes:

What the FFFF is this all about, I simply answered the question you asked. It is not my bloody fault you can't ask the right question.

Your explanation of the question above still makes no sense and now sounds like a short circuit.

icehockeyboy
22-07-2011, 23:46
How can it be a short circuit?
Taking the 2 left hand sets of wire, and joining them, and then the 2 right hand ones, and joining them, making an almost normal straightforward set of cables?

May I ask why you see fit to swear? As I mentioned earlier, you still seem to be smarting over my findings that having owned and used 2 different cables that you sell, you are annoyed that I said the cheaper ones were to my ears, and the guy I sold the dearer ones on to, the better ones.
I had, nor have any intention to cause you or your business any harm by my finding, but were I a reviewer from a magazine, would you send a private message to him with four letter swear words in, as you did me?

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 07:59
How can it be a short circuit?
Taking the 2 left hand sets of wire, and joining them, and then the 2 right hand ones, and joining them, making an almost normal straightforward set of cables?

May I ask why you see fit to swear? As I mentioned earlier, you still seem to be smarting over my findings that having owned and used 2 different cables that you sell, you are annoyed that I said the cheaper ones were to my ears, and the guy I sold the dearer ones on to, the better ones.
I had, nor have any intention to cause you or your business any harm by my finding, but were I a reviewer from a magazine, would you send a private message to him with four letter swear words in, as you did me?

I give up.

Marco
23-07-2011, 08:24
Guys, I've no idea what the purpose of this discussion is, and particularly why it was even started in the first place :scratch:, but there is no excuse whatsoever for foul language and hostility in the open forum or in PMs.

Richard, I've warned you about this before. We do not permit such behaviour, under any circumstances, on this forum! This is your last warning. If it happens again, you're out for a week.

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 08:33
Guys, I've no idea what the purpose of this discussion is, and particularly why it was even started in the first place :scratch:, but there is no excuse whatsoever for foul language and hostility in the open forum or in PMs.

Richard, I've warned you about this before. We do not permit such behaviour, under any circumstances, on this forum! This is your last warning. If it happens again, you're out for a week.

Marco.

I have sent no PMs to this guy from this forum, and I haven't a clue what he is talking about. I have used no foul language apart from the frustrated "FFFF" and "bloody" in the post body in frustration because I haven't a clue what he is talking about. I seriously don't know what is going on or why he is lying - ask him.

All I did was answer his questions as others tried as well with equal confusion.

Marco
23-07-2011, 08:40
Well, one of you is lying, so I intend to find out who it is!

I'll be asking Craig to forward me a copy of the alleged PM you sent him containing four-letter swear words. If it exists, and he does, then I'll have the evidence I need, and I will then take the necessary action.

Likewise, if Craig is making it up and lying, he will be subject to the same fate. I'm not happy about this situation in the slightest!!

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 08:44
Well, one of you is lying, so I intend to find out who it is!

I'll be asking Craig to forward me a copy of the alleged PM you sent him containing four-letter swear words. If it exists, and he does, then I'll have the evidence I need, and I will then take the necessary action.

Likewise, if Craig is making it up and lying, he will be subject to the same fate. I'm not happy about this situation in the slightest!!

Marco.

Well make sure you make the result public as I am fed up with this sort of thing. The muck hangs on me, and everyone thinks I am a re-incarnation of Attila the Hun or something.

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 08:44
So what is it called when the left and right cables of each side of the bi wire cable is joined together?

Blown amplifier, 'coz you've short circuited the outputs :doh:

Marco
23-07-2011, 08:47
Well make sure you make the result public as I am fed up with this sort of thing. The muck hangs on me, and everyone thinks I am a re-incarnation of Attila the Hun or something.

Oh, don't worry, I will!

Is it possible that this alleged PM was sent to Craig on another forum? Be honest!

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 09:00
Oh, don't worry, I will!

Is it possible that this alleged PM was sent to Craig on another forum? Be honest!

Marco.

Well he is not a member of mine so no it is not possible. I have a vague memory of something three or four years ago. As I remember it he was on Wigwam and I obviously wasn't and he was dissing Soundpipe and singing the praises of Soundcord. He sold the Soundpipes on to another member at Wigwam (I think as this is really racking my memory). The new customer emailed me saying he wasn't happy with them so I said send them back, which he did and I found a stressed and partially fracture joint due to the cable being over stretched and bent within the plug (these are semi rigid cables) by the original owner (Craig). I repaired it and sent them back FOC. I *think* I sent this guy Craig an email (as I had his contact from the ebay sale) saying that he had overstretched and broken the cable so I would appreciate it if he conveyed that fact at Wigwam as he was insulting the cable for no reason. He sent back an email saying I must be lying or something similar, so I told him where to go!!

I am really dredging my memory for this as it is a long time ago.

Marco
23-07-2011, 09:07
Well *if* that's the case, as seems likely, then Craig shouldn't be bringing up ancient disputes from elsewhere!! :rolleyes:

I couldn't give a monkey's bollocks what happened on Wigwam between you years ago.

BUT, you must stop using invective (words like bloody, etc) when someone annoys or frustrates you. Polite and respectful dialogue (by everyone, not just you) must remain the case at all times on this forum.

Marco.

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 09:25
The incident was indeed on Wigwam, and that said let me apologise for bringing it up here, but it is not a pleasant thing when someone replies, pm or not, in such a way.

Marco, as I said via pm to you, I bear no malice to Richard whatsoever, bar the contents of "that" pm, but going on his replies to me, it looks like he does bear a grudge, unless of course he replies to everyone like that?...........which it seems he does going on what you said in an earlier post in this topic?

I am more than willing to just drop this whole matter, and would actually like it if Richard would appear to be a little more friendly towards me, I left the Wigwam because of stuff like this happening, and you only need to ask members here that know me if I am a decent "good guy" :)

Marco
23-07-2011, 09:26
As I suspected, the PM concerned is about the incident you refer to above.

I have told Craig not to bring old disputes from elsewhere onto AoS, therefore I have no desire to host any more of this stuff. So let's get back on-topic, with polite and constructive discussion ONLY!

Marco.

Marco
23-07-2011, 09:28
The incident was indeed on Wigwam, and that said let me apologise for bringing it up here, but it is not a pleasant thing when someone replies, pm or not, in such a way.

Ok, Craig - no problem. Let's leave it there now and move on :)

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 09:32
I couldn't give a monkey's bollocks what happened on Wigwam between you years ago.

Marco.

Well nor do I, and I didn't initiate it, bring it up or even relate to it fully until my memory dredge.

I seriously think you would have responded harshly if this had suddenly been thrown at you, completely off topic, in a thread on bi-wiring. I don't think bloody is even considered to be swear word now it is so mild, it is a frustration word.

Look at the replies *no one* else has a clue what he is asking, and they are giving the same reply as me - "short circuit". I was doing no different to anyone else, but *I* am the one subject to attack and told I am sending four letter word PMs, which is a complete lie.

Marco
23-07-2011, 09:41
I seriously think you would have responded harshly if this had suddenly been thrown at you, completely off topic, in a thread on bi-wiring. I don't think bloody is even considered to be swear word now it is so mild, it is a frustration word.


No, I most certainly wouldn't react that way, Richard. Doing so would hardly set a good example, would it? The word "bloody" has different connotations, depending on the context. Quite simply, I wasn't happy with the context in which you used it, as it portrayed impoliteness and aggression.


Look at the replies *no one* else has a clue what he is asking, and they are giving the same reply as me - "short circuit". I was doing no different to anyone else...


There's one BIG difference. No-one else, other than you, has felt it necessary to behave aggressively towards Craig, and use impolite and inappropriate language in their responses.

Like I've said before, do not fight battles yourself - USE THE REPORT POST BUTTON.

Had you done that instead, the situation would've been resolved very quickly, BY ME, on your behalf (as I would've discovered that Craig was referring to an old dispute), without the need for this debate.

But that doesn't excuse the language you used. Therefore in future, use the report post button, rather than firing abuse at your 'attacker' (or those who are frustrating you), or I will have no option but to give you a week's holiday. This also applies to everyone else, including Craig.

Right, that's the last now on this subject - any further off-topic posts will be deleted without further notice.

Marco.

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 09:51
Hang on!

How can taking the 2 left hand runs of cable and twisting them together, and then doing the same to the right 2 cause a short circuit? It can't!

EG, separate the 2 left hand sides of a bi wire cable, and the same with the right side, you now have 2 runs of "normal" single wire cable...yes?

So twisting each separate run together, and using one side for pos, and the other for neg cannot possibly result in a short circuit.:trust:

I may have only stuck my apprentice electrician position out for a year, but I did learn that doing what I mention above will not cause any problem whatsoever!
What makes you think it would? :scratch:

Macca
23-07-2011, 09:54
So twisting each separate run together, and using one side for pos, and the other for neg cannot possibly result in a short circuit.:trust:

I may have only stuck my apprentice electrician position out for a year, but I did learn that doing what I mention above will not cause any problem whatsoever!
What makes you think it would? :scratch:

Becasue we are all still struggling to work out what it is you are describing:) - Okay I will have a stab - you are bi-wiring in the usual sense but twisting the cables around each other instead of running them straight? Yes? No? (probably no:()

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 09:59
Hang on!

How can taking the 2 left hand runs of cable and twisting them together, and then doing the same to the right 2 cause a short circuit? It can't!

EG, separate the 2 left hand sides of a bi wire cable, and the same with the right side, you now have 2 runs of "normal" single wire cable...yes?

So twisting each separate run together, and using one side for pos, and the other for neg cannot possibly result in a short circuit.:trust:

I may have only stuck my apprentice electrician position out for a year, but I did learn that doing what I mention above will not cause any problem whatsoever!
What makes you think it would? :scratch:

There's no mention of bi-wire in the post I responded to.

Doing what you described properly in the quoted post you end up with mono cabling with half the resistance.

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 10:02
Becasue we are all still struggling to work out what it is you are describing:) - Okay I will have a stab - you are bi-wiring in the usual sense but twisting the cables around each other instead of running them straight? Yes? No? (probably no:()


No......:)

Not bi wiring at all, but just using all 4 wires adjoined in the previously mentioned way.

We have actually gone off at a tangent now, firstly I mentioned doing something which I was told meant "shotgunning" but it appears I was misinformed, so, in the following debate, asked about doing what I mentioned previously, and that was in twisting the 2 runs of cable (as described in my last post) and asked what difference that could make, to be then told it would short circuit, which I know would not do that.:)

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 10:04
There's no mention of bi-wire in the post I responded to.

Doing what you described properly in the quoted post you end up with mono cabling with half the resistance.

Correct, because I have yet to hear bi wiring make a jot of difference.

How can the way I describe what I did be mono?

Using the 2 lh wires into one as the pos, and the 2 rh ones as the neg, and the same for the other run is exactly the same as using normal single wire cable, ie stereo.

BTH K10A
23-07-2011, 10:14
Seemed very obvious to me. Even though Craig's description wasn't perfect, I took it that Craig was using two sets of cables and twisting the ends of the +ve wires together, similarly with the earth wires thus effectively doubling the cross sectional area and number of strands into the standard speaker terminal i.e not splitting the crossover.

{Sorry, Andy, that last bit was a little bit provocative, so now removed -- Marco}

Macca
23-07-2011, 10:17
No......:)

Not bi wiring at all, .:)

Ah okay it was the mention of bi-wiring that confused me and I think others, you are single wiring with two runs. Got it.:)

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 10:22
Correct, because I have yet to hear bi wiring make a jot of difference.

How can the way I describe what I did be mono?

Using the 2 lh wires into one as the pos, and the 2 rh ones as the neg, and the same for the other run is exactly the same as using normal single wire cable, ie stereo.

Are you using speakers that have a splittable crossover ?
By that I mean speakers with two sets of terminals, and a jumper bar to connect between the respective pairs.

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 10:27
Are you using speakers that have a splittable crossover ?
By that I mean speakers with two sets of terminals, and a jumper bar to connect between the respective pairs.


Yep.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 10:34
Ah okay it was the mention of bi-wiring that confused me and I think others, you are single wiring with two runs. Got it.:)

This is the problem with this, as far as I am concerned he is still talking about bi-wiring as the cable junction is only at the amp end so he must be bi-wiring unless one of the cables is being left not connected at the speaker end.

This whole thing is one complete confusion as he seems incapable of asking a clear question.

Macca
23-07-2011, 10:40
Well we've been through this before - the brass jumpers always suck so you have to get rid of them by either bi-wiring properly or single wiring to the bass terminals and running short lengths of cable between bass and mid/top terminals to take the place of the brass jumpers.

Not sure there is any other rational or workable way to do it.

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 10:42
Andy,As Beobloke said....Deja Vu! :)
I'm with them at that other place as far as bi wiring is concerned.....damned if I can hear ANY difference at all!

What I did hear though, when I "shotgunned" the bi wire cable (joining 2 of the 4 together at one end, correct me if I am wrong here boys!) was an added weight to the sound.
Hard to describe what I mean here, I suppose the opposite to a lighter sound..........?

Are you talking at the amplifier end ?
If so, how do you explain the "added weight to the sound" ?

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 10:43
This whole thing is one complete confusion as he seems incapable of asking a clear question.

I'm with you on this Richard.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 10:44
Linn Kabers were so cack-handed in passive form, that with no cables connected and with the bi-wire links on the back, gently pressing the bass unit caused the mid driver to move - and the two weren't acoustically connected either...

Conversely, the remaining Harbeths with four terminals on the back had them there either for testing (the official excuse), or for market trends, bi-wiring making beggar all difference the rest of the time.

As long as the supplying cables are of decent gauge, and twisting them (or similar) isn't going to mess up the basic electrical performance, use them single wired but doubled up.

prestonchipfryer
23-07-2011, 10:58
Just use single cable runs from the amplifier for left and right speaker. Then for jumper cables use two short lengths of the same cable. Easy. Not at all complicated. No need to bi-wire. Bi-wiring invented for cable manufactuers benefit, not sound quality benefit. :rolleyes:

John

The Grand Wazoo
23-07-2011, 11:00
Can I try & clear this up?
We need a diagram..............

Craig is this what you were trying to describe?

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3921/doubledupcable.jpg

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 11:02
Just use single cable runs from the amplifier for left and right speaker. Then for jumper cables use two short lengths of the same cable. Easy. Not at all complicated. No need to bi-wire. Bi-wiring invented for cable manufactuers benefit, not sound quality benefit. :rolleyes:

John

It depends how you do it. I could send you two cables one bi-wired one single and the differences would be clear (with the proviso that the system is capable of resolving that difference).

Normal bi-wire is doubling the cable, effective bi-wing is done *within* the existing cable.

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 11:09
Can I try & clear this up?
We need a diagram..............

Craig is this what you were trying to describe?

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3921/doubledupcable.jpg


Presactly! :)

worthingpagan
23-07-2011, 11:10
Just use single cable runs from the amplifier for left and right speaker. Then for jumper cables use two short lengths of the same cable. Easy. Not at all complicated. No need to bi-wire. Bi-wiring invented for cable manufactuers benefit, not sound quality benefit. :rolleyes:

John


Can't agree......I definately can hear a difference with my speakers bi-wired

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 11:18
Linn Kabers were so cack-handed in passive form, that with no cables connected and with the bi-wire links on the back, gently pressing the bass unit caused the mid driver to move - and the two weren't acoustically connected either...


Surely the movement of the mid is caused by the bass driver moving air when you pressed it?
Without trying it I am pretty sure that most speakers will react in the same way, unless of course the cabinets were made in such a way that the drivers did not share the same "air space".

Erm.....what relevance is there about any cables being connected and the links etc? :scratch:

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 11:20
Presactly! :)

And you can hear added weight with it wired up like that.
Who is your recreational pharmacologist ?

Oh, by the way, that is not bi-wiring, it is effectively mono wiring.
You have halved the resistance of each leg by wiring (pun intended) it like this, but it's summed at the other end, so no real difference.

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 11:22
Are you talking at the amplifier end ?
If so, how do you explain the "added weight to the sound" ?

A more "meatier" sound, but if you re read what I originally put, I said it is hard to describe the type of difference.

Possibly the same difference as to what some here believe they hear when they bi wire.

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 11:28
A more "meatier" sound, but if you re read what I originally put, I said it is hard to describe the type of difference.

Possibly the same difference as to what some here believe they hear when they bi wire.

I added to my previous post so I'll quote it...


Oh, by the way, that is not bi-wiring, it is effectively mono wiring.
You have halved the resistance of each leg by wiring (pun intended) it like this, but it's summed at the other end, so no real difference.

I'd go so far as to say no difference.

I'm happy for the world that you gave up your electrical apprenticeship :)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 11:33
Then I go way back to my original answer and see if it is recognised (sinks in) now.

By doubling the cable you halve the resistance and inductance and double the capacitance. What is known as changing the LCR characteristics. This, depending on the amplifier and speaker load, will change the sound as it is changing the inherent filter characteristics in that LCR load.

That has precisely nothing to do with the main benefit of bi-wiring which is taking the earth junction of the crossover away from the speaker and back to the amplifier. This is with the proviso that the speaker manufacturer has split the earth as well as the crossover legs onto the bi-wire terminals, as some don't and just use the four terminals for marketing purposes as some customers think they should be there.

Marco
23-07-2011, 11:42
I'm happy for the world that you gave up your electrical apprenticeship :)

Oi, cheeky bugger! ;)

Folks, this debate is veering dangerously close to becoming circular, and thus pointless. Therefore if it continues in that vein over the next couple of posts, I think it's time for the various protagonists to simply 'agree to disagree', or I will have no option but to lock the thread.

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-07-2011, 11:45
I hear no difference Bi-Wire-in' but i do Bi-Amlifi-in'

icehockeyboy
23-07-2011, 11:46
I added to my previous post so I'll quote it...



I'd go so far as to say no difference.

I'm happy for the world that you gave up your electrical apprenticeship :)

Of course the way it is wired is mono, any single run of speaker cable is mono, it is only when another one is used at the same time is it described as a stereo pair.

Oh, that remark about my apprenticeship was very funny.

Marco
23-07-2011, 11:48
I hear no difference Bi-Wire-in' but i do Bi-Amlifi-in'

Same here (or rather, I consider bi-amping as the only one being worthwhile doing) :)

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 12:20
There is so much misunderstanding on this subject. I think people expect it to be something it isn't. The LCR changes can alter things for better or worse, so they are a red herring in the bi-wire argument. Do it properly and you avoid LCR changes.

Crossover layout for single wire speaker shares the earth between the drivers it is only the filter legs that are separated after the socket. By taking that filter leg junction away from the speaker and back to the amplifier has little sonic benefit if at all, but for some reason (and I am not really sure why but I have a theory) taking a split earth back to the amplifiers does. And this is why I think lots of people don't see a benefit in bi-wiring as they are using speakers with a shared earth on the crossover board.

It is not a chalk and cheese one, it is subtle, but exists.

The bi-amp one is approaching gross in its benefits, so we are talking about a completely different thing.

The Grand Wazoo
23-07-2011, 12:55
In my experience of bi-wiring, I reckon Richard is correct in his point that it works (and very well indeed) for speakers that are designed to take advantage of it, as I found with Steen Doessing's speakers. An extra pair of terminals is too often added to foster an 'well it must be better if you can bi-wire it' attitude.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-07-2011, 13:51
Everyone should just buy active speakers ... Removes all worry over this lot of bollocks ;)

DSJR
23-07-2011, 14:00
Surely the movement of the mid is caused by the bass driver moving air when you pressed it?
Without trying it I am pretty sure that most speakers will react in the same way, unless of course the cabinets were made in such a way that the drivers did not share the same "air space".

Erm.....what relevance is there about any cables being connected and the links etc? :scratch:

Not in this case, as removing the bi-wire links stopped this happening (I wish I could type faster and with more alactrity) - this was shown me by the Linn rep incidentally..

I give up. i wouldn't have ventured in making this point if i didn't feel it worthwhile. SOME speakers seem sensitive to bi-wiring, others not and the more sensitive ones DEFINITELY take on a whole different performance if you go one step further and BI-AMP with similar amps - IMO and listening experience doing this with many speakers.....

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 14:05
Everyone should just buy active speakers ... Removes all worry over this lot of bollocks ;)

But creates a different set of bollocks.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 14:10
Everyone should just buy active speakers ... Removes all worry over this lot of bollocks ;)

Well, there is that Hamish :lol: but many here rather like exploring old passive kit..

I should add that Linn's speakers of the 90's and certainly the early to mid noughties, were designed first and foremost as ACTIVE models, and sounded tons better thus set up. The passive option was "adequate" in the way of getting the punter on the ladder and then giving further options to upgrade. Other manufacturers such as Sonus Faber and Harbeth (yep, them again) have designed their crossovers and chosen their drive units so that they work properly together with a VERY carefully designed single-wired crossover and that bi wiring is unnecessary, only adding confusion to the end user.

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:11
Not in this case, as removing the bi-wire links stopped this happening (I wish I could type faster and with more alactrity...)

Wossat, then? It is a cross between electricity and alacrity? :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 14:11
But creates a different set of bollocks.

But far less sonically intrusive bollox - in my opinion :lol:

worthingpagan
23-07-2011, 14:13
Same here (or rather, I consider bi-amping as the only one being worthwhile doing) :)

Marco.


Not disagreeing with you Marco, but a run of speaker cable is a damn sight cheaper than a duplicate amp, depending on what you're using obviously ;)

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:14
Oh dear, I sense another circular and pointless debate about the ol' active vs. passive BOLLOX..... ;)

Marco.

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:15
Not disagreeing with you Marco, but a run of speaker cable is a damn sight cheaper than a duplicate amp, depending on what you're using obviously ;)

Indeed, Mark. I just hate 'half-jobs' or compromises! :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 14:20
I promise not to :)

Thing is, and like I tried to say last week on a different thread, it appears speaker design is still at the "load of bollox" stage and by removing the passive crossover to an active one and then attempting to remove it altogether and possibly letting the room try to do some of it for you, is simply moving the "bollox" from one place to another - in my opinion. The secret is in deciding how the compromises can be juggled to get the sound you want in the room you have (some rooms just can't have a stack of boxes in a fuggly, spindly stand), as well as how well the particular balance of compromises has been designed in the first place.

That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not attacking any one way of doing it, just trying to redress the balance a bit. Same goes for bi-wiring. If your particular speaker needs it, then do it ffs. If your speaker doesn't have - OR NEED - this option, as my ancient ones have, then don't lose any sleep over it, OK? :)

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:24
Yesh, daddy :sucks:

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 14:27
But far less sonically intrusive bollox - in my opinion :lol:

Depends what you call sonically intrusive. Bi-wiring doesn't increase the noise floor of the system or sit as a load of semiconductor gaps interfering with the musical information around a bunch of cheap Chinese filter components, if we are talking about that pro one he uses.

Good for PA, of little or no benefit (in fact losses) if used domestically. Regarding Linn obviously if they are designed that way then they will be designed to draw you into the upgrade. If that company is expert in anything they know how to draw you down the upgrade path and get your money.

We get back yet again to the argument that both are wrong in different ways, the right way is to try and get rid of both of them

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:35
....or simply implement a design that fulfils your sonic goals and creates loudspeakers that suit the ears/needs of your target market - worrying not about any form of 'absolutes' ;)

Marco.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 14:38
Depends what you call sonically intrusive. Bi-wiring doesn't increase the noise floor of the system or sit as a load of semiconductor gaps interfering with the musical information around a bunch of cheap Chinese filter components, if we are talking about that pro one he uses.

We get back yet again to the argument that both are wrong in different ways, the right way is to try and get rid of both of them


I have to disagree with the broad comments in the first paragraph, as modern active and some passive filters DESIGNED PROPERLY just don't get in the way to anything like the amount you keep suggesting- in my opinion of course...

Getting rid of these things completely is an idealistic dream still I think and if a crossover could be easily got rid of, I suspect everyone would have done it by now and not just small enthusiast concerns such as yourself Richard - or Ted Jordan for that matter. Robin Marshall did it very well with the under-developed (tweeter) ES14 Epos, yet the derivations he designed for Mordaunt Short returned to having a coil on the bass unit I seem to remember and the ES14 was buried a few years after with no fanfare. The Es22 was awful (Robin had nowt to do with them I think) and only the 20 and 30 showed what could be done, although they seemed very difficult to drive properly I remember.

No attacks on you, just the way things are as I see them currently - IN MY OPINION, which can be ignored you know :) You've designed a very novel way of doing it in your speakers which by your own admission last year, won't work as consistently well in every environment. I suspect Hamish chose his little actives because like me, his listening room isn't very big, he has to live in there too and his wife (like mine) didn't want piles of shiny boxes in a spindly rack in the corner collecting dust - help me out Hamish PLEASE, before I go over my head again...

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:45
I have to disagree with the broad comments in the first paragraph...


Well, that's certainly the kind of cack that's used inside ADM9s! :lol:

Marco.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-07-2011, 14:48
I have to disagree with the broad comments in the first paragraph, as modern active and some passive filters DESIGNED PROPERLY just don't get in the way to anything like the amount you keep suggesting- in my opinion of course...

Getting rid of these things completely is an idealistic dream still I think and if a crossover could be easily got rid of, I suspect everyone would have done it by now and not just small enthusiast concerns such as yourself Richard - or Ted Jordan for that matter. Robin Marshall did it very well with the under-developed (tweeter) ES14 Epos, yet the derivations he designed for Mordaunt Short returned to having a coil on the bass unit I seem to remember and thge ES14 was buried a few years after with no fanfare.

No attacks on you, just the way things are as I see them currently - IN MY OPINION, which can be ignored you know :) You've designed a very novel way of doing it in your speakers which by your own admission last year, won't work as consistently well in every environment. I suspect Hamish chose his little actives because like me, his listening room isn't very big, he has to live in there too and his wife (like mine) didn't want piles of shiny boxes in a spindly rack in the corner collecting dust - help me out Hamish PLEASE, before I go over my head again...

From your position and experience I would have thought that at least you would understand that a company is controlled by the people with control of the money, and if that is not the designer then you have little chance in the matter. A driver designed to not use a crossover is more expensive than an off the shelf driver (even if disguised) with a few crossover components added. The same as the labour and design work to select and alter an existing driver is more expensive.

Speaker design today in the bigger companies is controlled by the accountants and the marketing men, the designer has to make the best of a bad job. All you have to do is get a screwdriver or allen keys and open up some of these WAF towers with double 6 inch drivers and ports, they are like a disease inflicted on the industry.

Macca
23-07-2011, 14:51
some of these WAF towers with double 6 inch drivers and ports, they are like a disease inflicted on the industry.

Agreed!:)

Marco
23-07-2011, 14:58
Too right - they're a freakin' abomination. I'd set every one of them on fire! And this shit always bothers me, too:


I suspect Hamish chose his little actives because like me, his listening room isn't very big, he has to live in there too and his wife (like mine) didn't want piles of shiny boxes in a spindly rack in the corner collecting dust...


What about what YOU want, though?

Hamish and Hannah are expecting a baby, so that's slightly different to your position, Dave, where correct me if I'm wrong, your kids are now grown up?

So who's living room is it - yours AND your wife's to enjoy, or just HERS, to do with as she pleases?? ;)

Marco.

Tim
23-07-2011, 15:00
So who's living room is it - yours AND your wife's, or just HERS, to do with as she pleases?? ;)
Hmmm :scratch:, I think in most cases, it's hers!

Marco
23-07-2011, 15:05
Sorry, Tim, but I've never understood that mentality - it's totally ALIEN to the relationship I have with my wife, where both of us are equals, and come to MUTUALLY satisfactory decisions, as to what we want in OUR lounge - and anything else elsewhere, for that matter...

Not that Del would ever do it, but if she ever tried to dictate to me what was allowed in our lounge, she'd know what my response would be (and vice versa)!! ;)

Maybe this WAF nonsense is mainly a British thing? :scratch:

Marco.

Macca
23-07-2011, 15:09
Sorry, Tim, but I've never understood that mentality - it's totally ALIEN to the relationship I have with my wife, where both of us are equals, and come to MUTUALLY satisfactory decisions, as to what we want in OUR lounge - any anything else elsewhere, for that matter...

Not that Del would ever do it, but if she ever tried to dictate to me what was allowed in our lounge, she'd know what my response would be (and vice versa)! ;)

Marco.

That's you and Del, Marco and I have lived with a similar very reasonable woman who care to worry her head about more important things than piles of ugly hi-fi littering the lounge.

But it is in no way typical - most women have the say in what goes and what don't go and arguing about it will just bring extended grief because they will never compromise.

Marco
23-07-2011, 15:10
Then why marry someone so freakin' selfish in the first place? :scratch:

Marriage is all about compromise - or at least, it *should* be! So I don't buy this pish about 'she who must be obeyed', for the sake of a quiet life.

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-07-2011, 15:16
I never have been in the situation where wife says what goes, i have what i want, she does but it's actually me that is fussy about what i have in the living room even tho it's mine. HAF

Macca
23-07-2011, 15:17
Then why marry someone so freakin' selfish in the first place? :scratch:

Marriage is all about compromise!

Marco.

It's not selfishness per se - a lot of women are overly and obsessivly houseproud because they grew up with mothers who were similarly obsessed and this sets the benchmark for behaviour. Women who had professional mothers or feminist mothers or grew up in any situation where excess domesticity and matching carpets and curtains interested no-one tend to be far more relaxed about such things

Not sure if your Del fits any of those categories, it's just IME.

Macca
23-07-2011, 15:21
Incidentally my father always maintained that when he married my mother he made it pefectly clear that should there ever be a clash of interests between their marriage and Liverpool Football Club then the football would always come first:lol:

Marco
23-07-2011, 15:21
I never have been in the situation where wife says what goes, i have what i want, she does but it's actually me that is fussy about what i have in the living room even tho it's mine. HAF


LOL! But the key thing is, dude, you guys respect EACH OTHER'S wishes. There is no-one running roughshod over the other. Feck that bollox.

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-07-2011, 15:25
You'll probably never meet a wife as placid & easy going as Cheryl, i can't honestly see me trading her in for a new model.

Tim
23-07-2011, 15:25
Then why marry someone so freakin' selfish in the first place?
I think that's probably why I'm single!

I don't' agree with that mentality either Marco, but I think it is a very British thing, we seem to be infatuated with our homes (well the girls do) and all those damn makeover programs don't help. My best mate sits alone in the dining room most nights, whilst the 'girls' watch crap on the TV in a room that was totally designed by them, there is nothing in that room remotely connected to him, not one thing! He has to wait till they go to bed, then he can watch movies, which he loves - he has to come to my place to listen to music, which he also loves, but she won't have a Hi-Fi in her precious room.

Marco
23-07-2011, 15:27
It's not selfishness per se - a lot of women are overly and obsessivly houseproud because they grew up with mothers who were similarly obsessed and this sets the benchmark for behaviour.


Fair enough, but I would NEVER, in a million years, marry anyone like that! :nono:


Women who had professional mothers or feminist mothers or grew up in any situation where excess domesticity and matching carpets and curtains interested no-one tend to be far more relaxed about such things

Not sure if your Del fits any of those categories, it's just IME.

Lol - no she doesn't. We just behave as a normal couple, and so neither of us would dream of doing anything which would upset the other in a big way. Maybe that's why this year we'll be celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary, and are happier than ever together? ;)

Marco.

Marco
23-07-2011, 15:30
I think that's probably why I'm single!

I don't' agree with that mentality either Marco, but I think it is a very British thing, we seem to be infatuated with our homes (well the girls do) and all those damn makeover programs don't help.


Well I can certainly say from experience that Italian men aren't so 'puppy-dog' subservient ;)

Also, most modern Italian men are very design/fashion conscious, so would want a major input into how their home was decorated and what 'bits' went inside it - and that doesn't just apply to the hi-fi!


My best mate sits alone in the dining room most nights, whilst the 'girls' watch crap on the TV in a room that was totally designed by them, there is nothing in that room remotely connected to him, not one thing! He has to wait till they go to bed, then he can watch movies, which he loves - he has to come to my place to listen to music, which he also loves, but she won't have a Hi-Fi in her precious room.

Jeez... I'm speechless... It's an alien world to me! All he's doing is allowing himself to become a doormat for the rest of his married life. He has my deepest sympathies.

Marco.

Macca
23-07-2011, 15:36
I. My best mate sits alone in the dining room most nights, whilst the 'girls' watch crap on the TV in a room that was totally designed by them, there is nothing in that room remotely connected to him, not one thing! He has to wait till they go to bed, then he can watch movies, which he loves - he has to come to my place to listen to music, which he also loves, but she won't have a Hi-Fi in her precious room.

That does sound like a pretty bad scene.

Alex_UK
23-07-2011, 16:07
My best mate sits alone in the dining room most nights, whilst the 'girls' watch crap on the TV in a room that was totally designed by them, there is nothing in that room remotely connected to him, not one thing! He has to wait till they go to bed, then he can watch movies, which he loves - he has to come to my place to listen to music, which he also loves, but she won't have a Hi-Fi in her precious room.

My, that is sad. I can honestly say that it was a joint decision on the lilac in our room, and although I took some persuading on the floral print, we agreed on it and I compromised - just as Sue did with my Spendor's which are not the prettiest or most discrete speakers in the world, and nor indeed is my 401 particularly WAF - but she accepts music and hifi as being a big part of me and my life.

Anyway, we're wildly OT now, so I'll shut up. She told me to. :lol:

Tim
23-07-2011, 16:15
It is a shame, a nicer guy you couldn't hope to meet - he's a gentle giant. He sits at the PC reading about Rugby, or watches DVD's on the PC with headphones on. Mind you, he is a shift worker, so when he has the house to himself, he does make use of the 42" Panny, that is when he's not getting through the list of jobs she leaves for him! His problem is, he has a wife and two teenage daughters...... game over :doh:

Marco
23-07-2011, 16:24
Mind you, he is a shift worker, so when he has the house to himself, he does make use of the 42" Panny, that is when he's not getting through the list of jobs she leaves for him!


And what's she up to while he's doing these jobs? Shoe shopping?? :rolleyes:

Gentleness is an enviable trait in a person, and I'm sure he's a lovely bloke, but I'm sorry to say, Tim, that your mate has turned into a mug :(

I think he needs a wake-up call - and fast.

Marco.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 16:34
Well, that's certainly the kind of cack that's used inside ADM9s! :lol:

Marco.

Marco, whatever you think of those little active two ways, which I don't believe you've heard yet still, the fact is, the amps are UK MADE - by LS Designs in Bristol I understand and I suspect the amp packs cost multiples of the boxes and drivers, which hail from Indonesia, not China.

I think Richard was referring to the amps/crossovers used in the Adam's, the pro range of which are quite highly thought of in the pro sector I understand.

I was chatting to HiFi dave earlier and we were laughing about if I was ever able to get a pair of Lockwood Majors through the front door (unlikely in our little shack), I'd probably have to sleep in 'em, so much space they would take up :D

Marco
23-07-2011, 16:34
I can honestly say that it was a joint decision on the lilac in our room...


Liar, liar, pants on fire! You wanted lilac (to match the blouses you wear for your work) - she wanted magnolia! :ner:

Marco.

Marco
23-07-2011, 16:39
I was chatting to HiFi dave earlier and we were laughing about if I was ever able to get a pair of Lockwood Majors through the front door (unlikely in our little shack), I'd probably have to sleep in 'em, so much space they would take up :D

Hehehe... Ours isn't so big, either! In fact, I'd wager that your lounge is bigger than my listening room ;)


I suspect the amp packs cost multiples of the boxes and drivers, which hail from Indonesia, not China.


Oh right, that'll make all the difference, then! So do Indonesians make pish, which is slightly less pish, than the Chinese? :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
23-07-2011, 16:45
Too right - they're a freakin' abomination. I'd set every one of them on fire! And this shit always bothers me, too:



What about what YOU want, though?

Hamish and Hannah are expecting a baby, so that's slightly different to your position, Dave, where correct me if I'm wrong, your kids are now grown up?

So who's living room is it - yours AND your wife's to enjoy, or just HERS, to do with as she pleases?? ;)

Marco.

I thought my wife was wonderful by allowing the Spendors in our sitting room (she begged me to re-consider B&O "pencils"). They're 16" or so from the back walls, the grilles are sagging (OK, I need to do summat about it but have other concerns right now) and the cabs, although having nice grain, really need stripping and re-lacquering at some point (not worth it). We BOTH share this space and are the last couple in the world to be house-proud :eek: Our son is twelve (I'm an old Dad) so not grown up and away.

I've been there with having a separate room/den, the two of us leading all but separate lives in the evenings, and I hated it. At least we can share our evenings, me bashing the heck out of my old RM laptop while the telly's on and sonny-jim can be creating hell with his Wii or computer games. No peace for the wicked, but I'm content with my lot right now, as long as I'm able to re-claim my job in September anyway...

DSJR
23-07-2011, 16:49
Hehehe... Ours isn't so big, either! In fact, I'd wager that your lounge is bigger than my listening room ;)



Oh right, that'll make all the difference, then! So do Indonesians make pish, which is slightly less pish, than the Chinese? :eyebrows:

Marco.


I'd better not go there, I no longer have the stomach for it :lolsign:

I do like the little N5's though and so do many others who've tried them :)

Stratmangler
23-07-2011, 17:12
I only post this for the diagrams, just to illustrate bi-wiring.

http://www.brilliancehifi.co.uk/how-to-bi-wire-speakers.htm

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-07-2011, 08:36
I only post this for the diagrams, just to illustrate bi-wiring.

http://www.brilliancehifi.co.uk/how-to-bi-wire-speakers.htm

That illustrates bi-wiring that alters the LCR as well as bi-wires. There are specific cables designed to be bi-wired that contain separately insulated cores. I will give an example of one that contains 28 cores so when wired for bi-wire 19 cores are wired to one plug and 9 to the other, obviously the bigger number for the higher current leg, the bass mid driver. Or for tri-wire for a three way 16 - 8 - 4.

The interesting thing is this way can give you a direct comparison between the two methods without other things like LCR interfering. The people who have done this have *always* preferred the bi-wire, but with common earth crossover speakers that preference has been smaller.