View Full Version : Classic monitors - information required
The Black Adder
16-07-2011, 08:34
Looking in to some classic monitors on a very small budget.
Can anyone give me some advice on the following.. (I'm sure Marco can.. :) )
Celestion 66, 44, 15XR
Or... something else? I'm in need of some monitors with a presentation like my old SHL5's if thats possible.
Any help would be appreatiated.
Cheers
Joe
jandl100
16-07-2011, 08:47
Hi Joe
At beer budget prices, the Rogers Export Monitors we have discussed are good - I bought and sold mine fopr £125 or so. ... OK, so that's quite expensive beer! They have excellent midrange tonality - put most speakers to shame in that regard, tbh.
Also a big fan of the old Celestions - a friend of mine had a pair of ancient cheap and small C's - and they sounded bloody good! ... I can't recall the model at the moment. But I doubt if any of them are bad!
For a bit over £200 or so, SD Acoustics SD1 speakers are stunning - but very large. The smaller SD's I have heard have also been good.
For a bit of fun - why not some vintage JBLs? I owned L110 monitors for quite a while and loved them! Loads of pep & life. :)
The Rogers are too much like BC1's in the bass and this latter is way inferior to the warm but clear presentation of current Harbeths...
Ditton 33's and 44's are great when re-wired and stand mounted and I believe Richard Dunn rates the Goodmans Magnum K's, which I remember fondly but haven't heard since the early 70's. The 551's and 66 varients are great and endearing classics too, but not for over a grand IMO unless you have money to burn :ner:
One more personal list of favourites, which I've heard in modern system settings, are the KEF Concerto, Cadenza and Reference 104ab. The latter is the nearest to the Harbeth ideal, the "ab" crossover having much work done to improve the driver transition at this point. The Concerto can sound utterly charming when mounted on low stands though and the very early B110 midrange drivers lack the quacky quality of later examples fitted to Kans and later LS3/5A's. The Cadenza predates the 104ab yet has the same driver layout. Maybe the ab style crossovers will improve them further.
A quickie regarding the Cadenza's and Concerto's. We at KJ bought the last batches of these to sell at a reduced price back in 78 or so. I'd previously only heard these when plonked on the floor and hearing them once more on low stands was a revelation, confirmed in later decades when attending to clients' systems.
I'm sure there are many others out there, but the above should be a good place to start, since old Harbeths rarely come up for sale (must tell you something), old BC1's are fetching stupid money now (and their bass is horrid unless the port-hole is dealt with/re-tuned) and BC2's are very rare. The Rogers Export wasn't as beguiling as the BC1's and prices are climbing now, although Studio 1's placed WELL away from walls may be better here.
P.S. Rogers LS7's are plentiful and really good and even the once spitty "T" versions should have tamed down by now ;) The LS6's may be worth a look as well, although I remember them not liking being moved around in dem situations for some reason, needing half an hour of use to settle down afterwards (I'm sure this wasn't imagination).
I LOVE the funky memories of old JBL's such as the L100, but my gawd they don't half squawk on speech and nothing you do to the controls will fix this. The original crossover is totally wrong in all honesty, peaking up the midrange driver badly for some reason, but apparently the drivers are basically very good indeed and respond to a modern crossover. Later versions of this speaker and the last pro versions (in black crackle finish - I forget the numbers) were still funky but much beter balanced.
jandl100
16-07-2011, 09:19
All the above 2 posts in Dave's opinion, of course. ;)
I had the JBL L110's when I fancied a change after 2 years with my magnificent Kharma Ceramique 3 speakers. Trust me, even following the wonderful Kharmas, the JBL vocals didn't squawk at all!
They do when compared to other better speakers - believe me, i had loads with which to compare at the time - Spendors (all three), IMF's, Rogers, KEF's, classic early 70's AR's, other JBL's like L200's, bigger MA models (MA1 and 3), Tannoy Yorks and Lancasters, the dear old Quad 57's and others I've missed. The L100 was funky but severely coloured and those dreaded measurements showed why..
Jerry mate, I didn't say I didn't like the L100's, but if you listen to acoustic music, they really do fall flat on their backsides in comparison with the above mostly UK designed models :lolsign: Later versions of these are FAR better behaved, the excesses severely tamed and refined. The OP had Harbeths, which are amongst the best IN THE WORLD in terms of natural and realistic timbre, regardless of cost, and getting anything for peanuts to come anywhere close is going to be impossible - IMO of course :lol:
StanleyB
16-07-2011, 09:41
I am a fan of JBL speakers, and even fitted them in my car. The L100 is my favourite old timer. I used to work in a studio on the early 80's where they had a pair. I regularly borrowed them at weekends.
Can still show a clean pair of heels to many of the current day expensive choices. Perhaps not very good for classical taste mind you. A bit nasal on flute and delicate arias. But give it some rock, reggae etc. and you have a party animal in the house.
Mind you, Jerry had the L110, which had a completely different signature in many areas.
Looks like I have to swallow yet more humble pie and do more research - I've eaten so much in recent days I'm feeling sick :lol:
Jerry, if you're reading this I apologise - the L110 looks to be a rather different model from the L100 and derivatives I confused it with. I understand JBL took on a new designer in the mid to late 70's and he really did know a thing or two about sorting these basically good drivers out. many of his 80's designs were well received over here and I'd love to hear some floor-standing L150/L150A's...
jandl100
16-07-2011, 10:58
Thanks Dave.
Yes, as Stan says, I think the L110 and the L100 are very different animals, despite only a 10% difference in their names. :)
The Black Adder
16-07-2011, 15:45
ok.. thanks chaps.. keep it coming. Some good advice there. These would be driven by my (Crofted) Quad II's btw...
Been looking in to some Celestion DL10's too. Also the 15XR's.
Anyone had either with some judgements?
Celef Domestic monitors - often don't go for even £40 and are even called 'monitors'!
I'd say there is a difference in perception, at least in my mind, between monitors and just some cheap old domestic speakers though. Hard to find proper studio monitors for beer money, although having said that AR18s can be found in studios sometimes - some people love them for nearfield monitoring. Get them for 99p if they need refoaming or £50 - £100 if they been refoamed already.
Heybrook HB1s are another that are good and can be picked up for £5 if need refoaming.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
16-07-2011, 19:33
Looking in to some classic monitors on a very small budget.
Can anyone give me some advice on the following.. (I'm sure Marco can.. :) )
Celestion 66, 44, 15XR
Or... something else? I'm in need of some monitors with a presentation like my old SHL5's if thats possible.
Any help would be appreatiated.
Cheers
Joe
If you like bass then Goodmans Magisters - Alan (the one with the biscuit on his head) has a pair he is not using.
Celef Domestic monitors - often don't go for even £40 and are even called 'monitors'!
I'd say there is a difference in perception, at least in my mind, between monitors and just some cheap old domestic speakers though. Hard to find proper studio monitors for beer money, although having said that AR18s can be found in studios sometimes - some people love them for nearfield monitoring. Get them for 99p if they need refoaming or £50 - £100 if they been refoamed already.
Heybrook HB1s are another that are good and can be picked up for £5 if need refoaming.
The Celefs were to a certain extent the inspiration for the Heybrook HB2 (bextrene cone, resistive port etc). HB2s have a lot going for them if you can find a pair where the bass unit hasn't gone off-centre due to the weight of the magnet.
Rare Bird
17-07-2011, 07:44
I'm with Dave on the 'Ditton 33'
jandl100
17-07-2011, 08:36
Tbh, Joe, I doubt you'd be disappointed with any Celestion speaker from that era - all the ones I have heard have that "BBC midrange" that is so beguiling. Vintage Celestions (except the SL6 series) are also less Pipe&Slippers than equivalent Rogers and Spendors, imo. ... and I am pretty sure now that the cheap Celestion speakers my mate had was the UL6. Lovely open and natural sound. I was seriously impressed. I'm sure you can get them for a few 10s of £. :)
Rare Bird
17-07-2011, 09:00
'UL6' & 'UL8' had ABR units..there was a pair of rare 'UL10' on auction a bit back
The Black Adder
17-07-2011, 09:59
cheers guys... what about the DL range?
'UL6' & 'UL8' had ABR units..there was a pair of rare 'UL10' on auction a bit back
Oh Andr'e, the UL series were so out of step with their times, and trebly and rough with it I remember..
DL's? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, there are some Ditton 44's here which will come up due to iminent baby if you can mutually agree a price fair to both of you. Big, ballsy and not hugely coloured either - lovely on decent low stands..
Rare Bird
17-07-2011, 10:38
Oh Andr'e, the UL series were so out of step with their times, and trebly and rough with it I remember..
I don't like the 'UL's, i was just following on from Jerry's comment.
Rogers LS5/9 - the best box speaker I have ever heard, the LS6 was very poor in comparison, but still a good bargain. don't pay more than £100
The Black Adder
17-07-2011, 19:58
Thanks fellas... I've got a few to look in to. :)
jandl100
18-07-2011, 11:09
Oh Andr'e, the UL series were so out of step with their times, and trebly and rough with it I remember..
:nono:
I listened to a pair of UL6 (or maybe UL8) a few weeks ago. Lovely open, fast and clean sound. :thumbsup:
:eyebrows:
:nono:
Lovely open, fast and clean sound. :thumbsup:
:eyebrows:
Nice use of smileys Jerry.
Rogers LS5/9 - the best box speaker I have ever heard, the LS6 was very poor in comparison, but still a good bargain. don't pay more than £100
LS5/9 is unfortunately nowhere near beer money.
The Celefs were to a certain extent the inspiration for the Heybrook HB2 (bextrene cone, resistive port etc). HB2s have a lot going for them if you can find a pair where the bass unit hasn't gone off-centre due to the weight of the magnet.
I've fixed off centre magnets before (on some BC3s - cured some cone rub).
Stuck the driver on the hob for a bit then hit the the magnet with block and hammer. Worked a treat! :thumbsup:
freefallrob
18-07-2011, 11:29
My Dad used to have some JBL L50's years ago driven by a Sansui AU-something amp and Heybrook TT2, I loved them to bits. I remember listening to my Jean Michael Jarre - Houston/Lyon LP and it sounding thrilling!
The Rogers LS7t's replaced the above and were very good, thye were replaced by B & W 705's and EPOS M12i's which were much quicker and more realistic.
Tbh, Joe, I doubt you'd be disappointed with any Celestion speaker from that era - all the ones I have heard have that "BBC midrange" that is so beguiling. Vintage Celestions (except the SL6 series) are also less Pipe&Slippers than equivalent Rogers and Spendors, imo. ... and I am pretty sure now that the cheap Celestion speakers my mate had was the UL6. Lovely open and natural sound. I was seriously impressed. I'm sure you can get them for a few 10s of £. :)
UL6's - my very first venture into non-allinone hifi. Which magazine said my 4 star Panasonic's weakness were its speakers so I found a pair of UL6s and used those. No, can't remember what they sounded like.
UL6s = free from freecycle or about £30 - £80 (depends if a worldwide sale, collection only etc etc) on Ebay.
And it also won the main Japanese best speaker award in 1976 (as per adverts in some old mags I have).
The 'Celestion' range was supposed to be very good - Celestion 5s and 7s are good.
Now of course were exiting the classic arena though and getting towards more 'good cheap stuff from the 90s'.
Have to let us know if you really care about when it's from, what it looks like etc or just want any beer money cheap speakers..
Another pick from me: Diesis Solitaire - forgotten good speaker from mid 80s, compared well apparently to the Celestion SL6. Have a nice wood finish with a classy black band around the front edges. Ebay price near £30.
That said, I won some AR3s for 99p a few months ago (obviously weren't listed as such).. unfortunately I got busy and couldn't pick up till the weekend yet only 3 days later the guy sold them to a family member for a tenner... wasn't best pleased and the neg feedback came out!
Another bargain I didn't bother with - some Alison CD7s for £40, needed refoaming but that's all.
If you want good speakers for cheap I'm afraid you have to do the leg work on Ebay trawling through (and keep it to yourself!).
Rare Bird
18-07-2011, 12:00
Another pick from me: Diesis Solitaire - forgotten good speaker from mid 80s, compared well apparently to the Celestion SL6. Have a nice wood finish with a classy black band around the front edges. Ebay price near £30.
I used to own a pair, infact i have a picture somewhere, Well heavy.. mine had grooves around the edges is very simular to the grooves around the old 'LP12'. Diesis made some great speakers.
I used to own a pair, infact i have a picture somewhere, Well heavy.. mine had grooves around the edges is very simular to the grooves around the old 'LP12'. Diesis made some great speakers.
That's right - think a pair I bought for a friend had those grooves coloured in with black.
The Black Adder
18-07-2011, 12:39
I don't mind what era although I do have a passion for gear from the 50's to the 70's and some 80's stuff.
I seem to remember that there were some serious dross in the 80's that seemed to coinside with Mr. Sugars Amstrad detritus.
I'm after something that has that BBC monitor style presentation. Never heard the UL6's so I might look in to those a little further.
I'm also looking in to the DL series from the 80's.. DL10, DL12's etc... My farther owned the DL10's and I seem to remember they sounded superb.
Some mint boxed ones just went on ebay for about £150.
oh.. and they need to be servicable to a degree.
oh.. and they need to be servicable to a degree.
Everything is servicable to a degree.. What is not servicable you're probably not going to encounter unless through bad luck, like them falling and puncturing the tweeters or cones etc.. Even then you only have to worry about non-originality.
Any speaker you're buying for beer money (though you mention £150, Much bigger scope!) you won't be able to service for less than beer money so you may as well just buy another pair of beer money speakers instead!
I wouldn't let servicability restrict your freedoms of choice.. Afterall, I've even fixed a rubbing coil (as outlined in earlier post) which most people would just write off a whole pair of speakers for - took me about an hour plus web searching time for advice. Just make sure they work before you get them.
Just picked up some Warfedale Diamond IIIs from the recycling area (and picked up a Pure Chonos CD/DAB that just needed a software reset which I activated by accident..). Not worth anything on Ebay < £10 but sound ok, bit better than my other free Gale Mini Monitors (£10 is my kind of beer money, less if I'm buying a 6 for a fiver deal at the offi).
Anyone want my Gales for postage costs (prob will cost more than the speakers - they don't sell on ebay either).
I've another goodie - Dynaco A25s. Normally cheap when they turn up.
Only heard the A25's once and I liked them from memory.
Such a shame that all the wonderful old classic AR's need re-foaming nowadays 'cos many of these with "old fashoined colour" grilles could sound utterly charming in a "paper-cone" kind of way ;)
I doubt you'd go wrong with Celestion DL's. You could buy Tannoy Chesters for this sort of money not that long ago, but I think they're now well over a couple of hundred quid :(
Rare Bird
18-07-2011, 20:36
Another pick from me: Diesis Solitaire - forgotten good speaker from mid 80s, compared well apparently to the Celestion SL6. Have a nice wood finish with a classy black band around the front edges. Ebay price near £30.
Here are mine years ago when i was in my Orange Phase, you can just see them in the corner :lolsign:
Solitairs were good in terms of lack of smear, but so tight in presentation they could have had a carrot stuck up their bums... Later Ruarks often sounded like this too - totally uninvolving once the thumpity-thump was out of the way ;)
Rare Bird
19-07-2011, 18:09
Dave:
I’ve edited this a couple of times now as not to offend, but I wish (if you could) refrain from quoting equipment sound values on how you seem to remember or even from the reviews of the day you maybe reverting your memory back to..
Once again sorry if I’ve offended.
Yup.....
Dave, it has to be said, mate, that you have an unfortunate way of expressing yourself sometimes (rather dogmatic and absolutist), although I suspect that's not how you mean it to come across..... :(
Read what you've written again and see whether you think it reads as being considerate to those with an opposing view of the speakers concerned.
Do bear in mind that your opinion is simply only YOUR opinion, no more, and that old reviews in mags of anything, from 30-odd years ago, are far from being a conclusive guide today, with modern equipment in the equation.
Marco.
jandl100
20-07-2011, 07:00
Phew. I thought it was just me and good ol' Dave DSJR.
Yeah - turn it down a bit, mate! :thumbsup: There's room for everyones's opinions here. :)
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