View Full Version : Isolating an SL-1200
WOStantonCS100
13-07-2011, 23:16
Does anyone use an isolation platform underneath the 1200? If so what and how well does it work?
I don't have a feedback issue or anything. This is more in terms of squeezing the nth degree of performance out of the deck. I realize that's a foreign pursuit on this forum :eyebrows: ; but, I thought I'd ask anyway.
I've not heard anything to beat the Isonoe feet, Biff, so I've stopped experimenting. If you still have the standard Techie feet then that is best addressed first, before you look at platforms.
I'd echo that and say that this almost certainly applies to ALL of these direct drive decks - with fairly solid plinths and rubbery feet. Grab 'em while they're still semi-affordable :)
Canetoad
14-07-2011, 12:00
I have no regrets buying the Isonoes for my 1210. They are expensive but they really are amazing at isolating the TT. :)
prestonchipfryer
14-07-2011, 16:37
I've not heard anything to beat the Isonoe feet, Biff, so I've stopped experimenting. If you still have the standard Techie feet then that is best addressed first, before you look at platforms.
I'd have to agree with Martin. The Isonoe feet are an absolute bargain. Essential upgrage for the SL1200s. Also there are sorbothane 'boots' which fit the Isonoes and glass disc inserts.
John
You can use an isolation shelf underneath the TT if you really want to spend even more money, I have a Mana Acoustics one, I don't think it makes much difference. As long as your Techie is perfectly level and has Isonoe feet, top quality external PSU, Oyaide Mat and Weight, Oyaide tone-arm cable, oyaide carbon fibre headshell, denon 103, jelco arm, furutech anti-static brush, you will be fine....:lolsign:
I have a Mana Acoustics one, I don't think it makes much difference.
Trust me, it will when I set it up properly for you (there is a knack to 'tuning' it correctly) ;)
Btw, when you showed it to me on Saturday, I didn't notice any glass or an MDF board. Did you get one or the other with it (and all the necessary spikes)?
Marco.
Yup, Isonoes all the way, also l use the SDS plates, which helped again in relaxing the sound, also a mat upgrade- Anchromat- good, Oyaide mat and weight- wow, big upgrade:):cool:
kininigin
16-07-2011, 11:50
Yup, Isonoes all the way, also l use the SDS plates, which helped again in relaxing the sound, also a mat upgrade- Anchromat- good, Oyaide mat and weight- wow, big upgrade:):cool:
Im starting to wonder if it's my sorbothane feet i use on my 1200 that is ''relaxing'' my nagaoka and making me lose interest when listening to it.
Has anyone gone from sorbathane feet to isonoes ,and if so what differences did you have.
I found the sorbo's a step up from the stock feet,which wouldn't be hard btw
Yes, Darren, I went from Foculpods (sorbothane) to Isonoes. Big upgrade.
kininigin
16-07-2011, 12:23
Yes, Darren, I went from Foculpods (sorbothane) to Isonoes. Big upgrade.
must admit i would buy them on looks alone,so the fact they offer a big upgrade is a bonus :)
Yup, Isonoes all the way, also l use the SDS plates, which helped again in relaxing the sound, also a mat upgrade- Anchromat- good, Oyaide mat and weight- wow, big upgrade:):cool:
Sorry if its of topic but how essential is the weight with the mat Andy?
Better than the bruil you had at flattening out the record?
Better than the bruil you had at flattening out the record?
I'm using a Michell clamp nowadays and that's better than the Bruil I used to use - both at flattening out warps and for sound.
Thats a surprise. Nice looking clamp and cheap.
Wasnt there a thread last year about weights used with a Technics, the conclusion being the heavier the better?
Sorry if its of topic but how essential is the weight with the mat Andy?
Better than the bruil you had at flattening out the record?
To my ears l would say essential- the mat was good with a BREN1 weight, but then put the Oyaide weight and a massive upgrade IMHO, someone posted on AOS that the two Oyaide items was akin to going from aMM Cartridge to good MC, and l really agree, it aint subtle! Still cannot work out how a record weight and mat could make so much difference:scratch:
I cant work it out either. Looks fantastic though as if it was made for the 12**.
chris@panteg
16-07-2011, 14:33
Hi Colin
The Oyaide does look amazing and the best mat bar none, however
Richard is visiting on Tuesday and weds, and I'm having the platter upgrade!
This works best with no mat at all ? Looking forward to it , and at last hearing the black beast ! With some classic Techy vintage carts.:)
:
Hi Colin
The Oyaide does look amazing and the best mat bar none, however
Richard is visiting on Tuesday and weds, and I'm having the platter upgrade!
This works best with no mat at all ? Looking forward to it , and at last hearing the black beast ! With some classic Techy vintage carts.:)
:popcorn:
chris@panteg
16-07-2011, 16:23
Sorry , i will keep quiet in future ! No more posts , cheers.:)
Wakefield Turntables
16-07-2011, 18:26
+1 FOR isonones. Sorbothane is designed to absorb vibration, too much will rob your 1210 of some of its slam and will produce a more laid back sound, I noticed this when I played some extreme thrash like slayer, megadeth for example (not everyones cup of tea I understand). Too little sorbothane wont dampen your 1210 enough. My advice is try upgrading your feet on the 1210 before your spend lots of money upgrading every component on your 1210. You can at least see what effect the feet have had on your 1210.
WOStantonCS100
16-07-2011, 20:34
Ok, so the consensus is that the Isonoe's suck................ :stalks::doh::eek: NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I was just checking to make sure everyone is awake. Yes, I probably would have eventually bought them just because they look cool. ;) However, it appears more than one of you have confirmed that they actually do what they're designed to do. That's good enough for me.
Ok, so the consensus is that the Isonoe's suck................ :stalks::doh::eek: NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I was just checking to make sure everyone is awake. Yes, I probably would have eventually bought them just because they look cool. ;) However, it appears more than one of you have confirmed that they actually do what they're designed to do. That's good enough for me.
They do it big style, and are mini works of art and good VFM IMHO:)
Ammonite Audio
17-07-2011, 13:29
I'm going to (more or less) disagree with everyone, having twice tried Isonoes on my old Technics, and twice found out that it did not actually need isolation and the Isonoes robbed too much musical satisfaction. The Technics, like any record player, does need a proper support, though, and for me Stillpoints provided that support and control of unwanted energy, particularly with the points (ceramic balls) pointing upwards into suitable 'hard' points of the alloy chassis. The Stillpoints worked well in place of the stock feet, even though they (like the stock feet) were bolted into the rubber base of the deck, and not the actual chassis. Of course, some users may need the isolation that the Isonoes do clearly provide, in which case fair enough, but I reckon you'd have to have a really shoddy system support table/platform to create a problem in the first place.
Hi Hugo,
The problem is that Isonoes work best on glass, rather than on any other surface. Results will also vary depending on how much isolation is provided by the support on which the T/T is sitting, and much of that will be down to the design principles in that respect (or not, if it's simply an ordinary piece of furniture) of said partnering equipment support.
You've heard my Techy at home, on Mana, and so you know that it not only sounds superb, but that I have no problems with the Isonoes 'robbing too much musical satisfaction' - quite the opposite! ;)
Like anything else, there are a multitude of variables one has to consider when assessing the efficacy of any type of isolation devices, with results varying hugely from set-up to set-up, and the Isonoes are no exception. Therefore, as always, the best thing to do is suck it and see... There are no absolutes in this game! :cool:
Marco.
+1 FOR isonones. Sorbothane is designed to absorb vibration, too much will rob your 1210 of some of its slam and will produce a more laid back sound, I noticed this when I played some extreme thrash like slayer, megadeth for example (not everyones cup of tea I understand). Too little sorbothane wont dampen your 1210 enough. My advice is try upgrading your feet on the 1210 before your spend lots of money upgrading every component on your 1210. You can at least see what effect the feet have had on your 1210.
Spot-on advice, Andrew! :)
In my set-up, I detest sorbothane with a passion, as it does precisely what you describe, and robs the sound of dynamics and vitality, making my T/T sound dull, bloated and 'phat' sounding, in comparison to what I'm used to.
I value 'whip-crack' dynamics, speed, and a rhythmically propulsive and 'ballsy' sound (with the right music), and the Isonoes on my Techy give me precisely that :cool:
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
17-07-2011, 16:00
Hi Marco
My point is that it is easy for any of us here to imagine that isolation is necessary, because we think we understand that one factor and it seems logical, but often isolation is not necessary at all. It is, however, always important to provide a good stable support for the deck, as with all gear, up to a point. I do not believe that Isonoe feet provide that stable support. Let me put my professional hat on for a moment to explain why. Imagine that the Technics is simply a single weight pressing down on the damped spring of the Isonoe foot - that weight (mass) coupled with the stiffness of the spring will result in a fundamental spring resonance centred on one frequency. That's all fine and dandy - the isolation works well when seen as one simple mass-spring system; however in the Technics we have significant variations in mass from one corner to the next, so each Isonoe foot will be behaving differently and the whole deck will moving around in a complicated way. Not much admittedly, but enough to replicate the sort of odd-bounce situation normally associated with certain sprung sub-chassis belt-drive turntables.
I think that's why Isonoe feet do not flick my musical switch, but simple physics aside there is much that none of understand about reproduced audio and, in the end, I simply do not like what Isonoes do. It's a shame that it took two lots of nearly £100 to establish that personal truth! Isonoes are, in my opinion, an elegantly designed and manufactured solution to a problem that mostly does not exist, except in the minds of the audiophile seeking to over-analyse things.
I know that you and others are very happy with your Isonoes, but have you ever tried something like RDC cones instead?
Hi Hugo,
The problem is that Isonoes work best on glass, rather than on any other surface. Results will also vary depending on how much isolation is provided by the support on which the T/T is sitting, and much of that will be down to the design principles in that respect (or not, if it's simply an ordinary piece of furniture) of said partnering equipment support.
You've heard my Techy at home, on Mana, and so you know that it not only sounds superb, but that I have no problems with the Isonoes 'robbing too much musical satisfaction' - quite the opposite! ;)
Like anything else, there are a multitude of variables one has to consider when assessing the efficacy of any type of isolation devices, with results varying hugely from set-up to set-up, and the Isonoes are no exception. Therefore, as always, the best thing to do is suck it and see... There are no absolutes in this game! :cool:
Marco.
Nice one, Hugo - I can't dispute any of that, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, I *know* what I hear in my own system, and in that context, the Isonoe feet work superbly well :)
You didn't seem to notice anything 'musically lacking' when you were raving about how my T/T sounded last time you heard it chez-moi, or at Martin's (and indeed Martin's own Techy, fitted with Isonoes, also sounds amazing), so Isonoes in the right set-up, can't be all that bad! ;)
I'm afraid that, no matter what cogent technical argument is thrown at the debate against the efficacy of Isonoes, ultimately the only arbiter that I care about is my ears.....
Marco.
JazzBones
17-07-2011, 16:42
Hi Marco
My point is that it is easy for any of us here to imagine that isolation is necessary, because we think we understand that one factor and it seems logical, but often isolation is not necessary at all. It is, however, always important to provide a good stable support for the deck, as with all gear, up to a point. I do not believe that Isonoe feet provide that stable support. Let me put my professional hat on for a moment to explain why. Imagine that the Technics is simply a single weight pressing down on the damped spring of the Isonoe foot - that weight (mass) coupled with the stiffness of the spring will result in a fundamental spring resonance centred on one frequency. That's all fine and dandy - the isolation works well when seen as one simple mass-spring system; however in the Technics we have significant variations in mass from one corner to the next, so each Isonoe foot will be behaving differently and the whole deck will moving around in a complicated way. Not much admittedly, but enough to replicate the sort of odd-bounce situation normally associated with certain sprung sub-chassis belt-drive turntables.
I think that's why Isonoe feet do not flick my musical switch, but simple physics aside there is much that none of understand about reproduced audio and, in the end, I simply do not like what Isonoes do. It's a shame that it took two lots of nearly £100 to establish that personal truth! Isonoes are, in my opinion, an elegantly designed and manufactured solution to a problem that mostly does not exist, except in the minds of the audiophile seeking to over-analyse things.
I know that you and others are very happy with your Isonoes, but have you ever tried something like RDC cones instead?
Hi Hugo, I'm currently experimenting with a Townshend Seismic sink, bellows and spring present day one, under my 1210. I have taken out the Isonoes (for now) and substitued four down facing small M6 threaded cones (pointing downwards) which sit on Blue Horizon cups, thence on the Seismic sink. This, I believe, spreads the weight of the deck itself evenly (?:scratch:) and also allows for levelling adjustment. Its very early days yet and all I can say that the presentation has 'sweetened up' if such a term can be used or understood? I did try the Isonoes on an old Mana 10mm glass sorbothane bonded to the Seismic sink thinking of the Seismic sink as a giant boot instead of Isonoe's own booties but this did not work for me. The work continues. I wish I could post pickies but I have given up trying as photoshack refuses to down load and like Hi Fi Dave I'm at a loss here, maybe my forthcoming grandchild (due Sept) will show me how when he/she is 10 years old :)
This is a very interesting subject and I did kick off something of this nature on the Timestep Forum many moons ago under the heading of 'what does your 1210 sit on?'
Back to the white jacket, clipboard and perplexed expression :scratch:
Ron :o
Hi Ron.. Where did you get your threaded cones???
I thought I still had the custom spiked supports you kindly made for the TT mono amps, but these were dismantled years ago before one of my many moves and the spikes have disappeared for now, although I'm sure I kept them.
The SL1500 rubber-bell feet are not very good either although some old Audioquest sorbothane feet (the big round ones) work well at preventing the plinth from boinging when rapped.. I also agree that upward spikes (or properly attached downward ones) also work well and the cabinet I have is so heavy, this should work well..
Trust me, it will when I set it up properly for you (there is a knack to 'tuning' it correctly) ;)
Btw, when you showed it to me on Saturday, I didn't notice any glass or an MDF board. Did you get one or the other with it (and all the necessary spikes)?
Marco.
I have the glass part as well matey, and all the spikes too. I now have a decent glass stand (until the clearlight audio one I need is available) so will get fettling soon, my pre-amp is due in too any day now and I just got a silver SL120 off a very nice man called Jon who is also a customer of mine so all silver to go!
Oh and a new pair of speakers will be landing at Brook Towers next week so you are cordially invited to mine for a listening sesh and a few glasses of Bollinger any time you feel like it.
Sounds good, dude - bell me, and we'll arrange it! :cool:
Marco.
"The Technics, like any record player, does need a proper support, though, and for me Stillpoints provided that support and control of unwanted energy, particularly with the points (ceramic balls) pointing upwards into suitable 'hard' points of the alloy chassis. "
I just want to add that I agree intuitively or theoretically with Shuggie's sentiments quoted above and will be putting that theory to test as the Stillpoints, 3 of them initially, with risers for adjustability, will be my next Technics upgrade.
The isonones have just never seemed like the best idea for support/isolation of the deck to me, particularly since some who know say they are intended to be used in conjunction with glass shelves, which I don't have.
I have decided on the stillpoints based on experimentation with the few isolation devices I have on hand, my own non-technical ruminating on the issue, and my experience with a lot of other isolation devices and schemes.
Will see if they work as I hope very soon.
What I have done temporarily while still using the stock feet is wrap the threaded shafts with teflon plumbers tape, which seemed to tighten up the fit a bit, which is probably a good thing.;)
One more little bit I discovered today which might be of interest: For those using the stock Technics tonearm and running VTA all the way down, unlock the arm collar.
Seemed to me like it "freed up" the sound, brought it forward a bit while not reducing rearward extension of the stage, thus it seemed slightly more three dimensional. Thought maybe it tipped up the balance a hair, but then some bass notes came in and it sounded deeper than ever.
It seemed like a solid improvement , but I was already enjoying a new NOS tube in my phono stage, so maybe it was just more of that magic.
kininigin
21-07-2011, 13:33
Well,i decided to have a look at my overall setup to address the slight lack of definition,sparkle and slam with the technics and nagaoka.
First thing i did was reduce the amount of damping in the jelco,it is now about a 1/3 full.
Next was to remove the target isolation platform,which has a steel frame with an mdf shelf resting on four corners which have a small strip of sorbo.
It now rests directly on a glass stand.
I then removed some sorbo flatfeet from my croft amp.This now rests on two granite chopping boards,which inturn rest on the target isolation platform.
Result= leading edge of notes now better defined,now sounds more open and the bass seems to go lower(not sure why that would be).
So lesson learnt,don't go overboard with damping your system :doh: unless you like it dull :)
The isonoes were made for clubs to isolate from bass bin and dancing feet resonance. The idea you dont need them if you have a decent platform i think is true.
And yet, Colin, I still find them beneficial despite my T/T being sat on 17 layers of Mana supports (which I think qualifies as a "decent platform")! ;)
Marco.
JazzBones
21-07-2011, 16:07
And yet, Colin, I still find them beneficial despite my T/T being sat on 17 layers of Mana supports (which I think qualifies as a "decent platform)! ;)
Marco.
:stalks: Struth Marco, is this whats meant by taking a TT to lofty heights or the pinnacle of performance... is there any difficulties encountered when cueing cartridge arm to vinyl at such a height :eek::)? Do you use each 17 level as a step ladder :scratch:
:cocktail: Ron
Lol - fortunately I'm slightly taller than the L/H stack!
Here's me Mana-madness:
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/aosm03.jpg
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/aosm19.jpg
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/05012009245jh2.jpg
But the Isonoes *still* do their job!!
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
JazzBones
21-07-2011, 16:38
Beauty Marco, beauty mate :) Knowing John W, this would have taken time and fine tuning to get to this ultimate of Mana magic, also good to see how your music machine looks at last, beats a lit up jukebox. By the way just think of the extra Mana's you would need if you used Isobariks :eek::lol:
Don't envy you the yellow dusting job or is there fan extraction hidden away there?
:cheers:
Hi John,
That picture was taken two and a half years ago, so it could do with updating, although my basic kit is still the same... The biggest change was selling my (then) Spendor SP100s, shown below, for the Lockwoods.
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/aosm06.jpg
Basically, the levels of Mana 'cocoon' the equipment from the sonically detrimental effects of vibration, by sinking it to ground - and it works!
The more levels that are added, the greater the above effect. Therefore, theoretically, the amount of levels one can add is infinite, or rather until you hit the roof! :eyebrows:
No fans - I dust things (sometimes)... ;)
Marco.
Im curious how the glass shelves sound when you tap them. I have a sound organisation rack and when tapped there is no dull thonk. These things rattle :eek:
Cant be good.
"Dull thonk" with equipment placed on the glass shelves, ringing without equipment on them (to a tuned frequency, in order to create a desired effect) :)
I know the old chestnut you're getting at, Colin, but it doesn't apply with Mana ;)
As long as there's kit on the shelves, and everything's set up properly, there's no rattling.
Marco.
The glass shelves on the sound organisation are probably to thin and only isolated using gel pads. Im sure the manas are much better but they are hens teeth on the 2nd hand market.
Same with my partington speaker stands. They ring like bells.
You're not wrong, Colin!
However, should anyone be so inclined, Mana supports are easily replicated, by having the design copied, relatively cheaply, at your local friendly ironsmiths ;)
Marco.
I have it resting on a cutting board "sandwich" using a small inner tire tube.
The stock squishy footers were replaced with my favourite BDR cones.
Wakefield Turntables
01-05-2013, 19:15
Yes, Darren, I went from Foculpods (sorbothane) to Isonoes. Big upgrade.
Why not use both :eyebrows:
I have a small 5mm layer of sorbothane which sits between my deck and the isonoes, and then the Isonoes sit on another layer of 5mm sorbothane. Sounds very very good indeed.
Why not use both :eyebrows:
I do - Isonoes inside Techniboots. Gives superb isolation.
Wakefield Turntables
02-05-2013, 08:08
I do - Isonoes inside Techniboots. Gives superb isolation.
Great minds think alike :D
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