Goodbye HiFi Wigwam

[Covenant]

Looks like its gone for good :(.......

[chris@panteg]

Long Live AOS in that case :)

[Barry]

What will AoS do about Scalford now?

[Alex_UK]

Looks like its gone for good :(.......

Gosh - why?

[Covenant]

James was very upset at exchanges between members and the constant battle to prevent the 'Wam getting sued. Evidently there was a very heated argument about swearing (I think) and James decided to pull the plug.
Although I much prefer AOS there was lots of nice, knowlegable people on the 'Wam who, I hope, will migrate to AOS. Anything Marco and the mods can do to encourage them should be applauded.

[Covenant]

Re the comment on Scalford. Its a bloody long way for me (and half the country). If AOS did a show it should be Midlands or Birmingham area.

[Dominic Harper]

Here is a link to why hifiwigwam closed

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6330/wamclosed.jpg

Rather sad really:( but totally understood.

Dom

[chris@panteg]

I now realize just how good a job Marco and the other mods do here , crikey it can't be easy to run this sort of show .

[keiths]

Quick. Lock the doors...;)

[Beechwoods]

It's a sad day, Wigwam has been an institution and I've always had great times chatting with some of the chaps over there at Scalford the last three years. Competition is good for all of us. Any ex-Wammers with an affinity for what AOS is about will be more than welcome here of course, it would be nice if the circumstances were different though.

All the best to James, I'm sure it was a difficult decision to make, but sometimes family, home and sanity must take priority.

[jandl100]

Gosh.
That's sad.

I'm sorry to say you'll be seeing even more of me now, chaps! :)

[wee tam]

made a lot of good friends over the years :) will now have to start all over again :scratch:

[RotaryConnection]

Not over till the fat lady sings..
Hope the air of finality about is a bit premature and that James, the other mods and everyone that makes The Wam what it is can think about how to move forward.
Quite a few of the posts about Googles influence were rather frothy without James having any opportunity to say what he had in mind-he did say it was a temporary state of affairs to be fair. (Personally, I completely disagree with being censored by any commercial or political interest.)
Hope it returns, some good friends and contacts made there, be sad to lose them.
The Pie Show is another reason of course to encourage some reconciliation.
ATB
Gareth

[Lee Henley]

What a shame it shut down, learnt quite a bit over the years I posted on their

[alfie2902]

The Wam may well be back yet!

It would be a real shame if not, as there's no other forum like it IMO! Love it or hate it, it had a certain vibe & sense of humour that no other forum gets near!

The real shame would be the loss of the Scalford show though!!!

[southall-1998]

Will miss wigwam.

[worthingpagan]

it's a shame, i'm still waiting for something I paid £60 for to arrive and all the details were in the pm section which I can't get to now :wah:

aside from that there were a lot of numpty's on there and I guess this site is now at risk of a deluge of newbies who don't give a rat's behind about what they've done to James :steam:

[Audioman]

Perhaps if Wigwam had been set up like other forums to filter and asterisk out swear words this situation would never have arisen. Never joined but often looked out of interest. It was frankly populated by a bunch of uncouth idiots who should have been banned. A forum needs to be run by moderators who between them can devote a fair proportion of their time to it. I'm sure it is not beyond the wit of those involved to keep the Scalford show going and post information here and on other forums.

[chelsea]

^^^^ ahhh but you kept going back to look didn't you.

Have to say it's a really shame if it's gone for good.
Superb banter and humour that i've not seen elsewhere.

[wee tam]

it's a shame, i'm still waiting for something I paid £60 for to arrive and all the details were in the pm section which I can't get to now :wah:

aside from that there were a lot of numpty's on there and I guess this site is now at risk of a deluge of newbies who don't give a rat's behind about what they've done to James :steam:

i think you are wrong or at least hope so , everyone respected james and the superb job he and others did , and hope he will do again :)

[chelsea]

Hopefully scalford can be kept in it's same format.
I feel if someone takes it on but tries to change it ,it will fail.

A unique show that would be a sad loss.

[worthingpagan]

i think you are wrong or at least hope so , everyone respected james and the superb job he and others did , and hope he will do again :)

I might be wrong, and I hope you're right ;) James invited me to join years ago when the audiophile candy shut down, it's him i feel for most, the poor guy must have been driven half out of his mind judging by the final post

[alfie2902]

Perhaps if Wigwam had been set up like other forums to filter and asterisk out swear words this situation would never have arisen. Never joined but often looked out of interest. It was frankly populated by a bunch of uncouth idiots who should have been banned. A forum needs to be run by moderators who between them can devote a fair proportion of their time to it. I'm sure it is not beyond the wit of those involved to keep the Scalford show going and post information here and on other forums.

The point is, it wasn't supposed to be like other forums! Why have lots of forums all the same? It was lightly modderated by choice & the AUP stated early on, the swearing & bad language was allowed & also stated that if you didn't like that then please don't join!

I guess from your post you totally missed the point of the Wam :doh:

Alot of the uncouth idiots (Thank-you!:wanker:) post on alot of other forums & where swearing is not acceptable they behave as the forum dictates :)

[chelsea]

The point is, it wasn't supposed to be like other forums! Why have lots of forums all the same? It was lightly modderated by choice & the AUP stated early on, the swearing & bad language was allowed & also stated that if you didn't like that then please don't join!

I guess from your post you totally missed the point of the Wam :doh:

Alot of the uncouth idiots (Thank-you!:wanker:) post on alot of other forums & where swearing is not acceptable they behave as the forum dictates :)

Hi alfie,

Lets hope scalford keeps going.:champagne:
Thanks to the whole wam team if it is gone for good.

Cheers
chelsea AKA russ abbott on wam.

[alfie2902]

Hi alfie,

Lets hope scalford keeps going.:champagne:
Thanks to the whole wam team if it is gone for good.

Cheers
chelsea AKA russ abbott on wam.

Hi Stu,

Well the the first Scalord was supposed to by cross forum so may-be if all work together it can still happen! I have a feeling the Wam will live again, perhaps not as it was/is now, but in some new form :)

[MartinT]

The real shame would be the loss of the Scalford show though!!!

I'm hoping there will be a way for us to keep it going.

[ursus262]

I have a lot of experience of forums generally, and generally they do end in tears if they are not properly moderated. You see, forums aren't clubs or societies. They aren't democracies.

I've seen examples of where moderation is either too strict (where mods abused their position), or too lax. In both cases you end up with resentment.

It would appear that James should have stopped the abuse of the forum long ago by setting down basic expectations on how business is to be conducted in the forum. Marco does a very good job of this, as he skilfully navigates a course between being dictatorial and being too lax; he does it well which is really what makes the #Aos forum so friendly.

forums such as this do attract a fair proportion of windbags, and it is the being separated by a screen that encourages people to behave badly because doing so face to face usually ends up with a smack in the chops :lol:

I am wondering if a paid-for model might be useful in moving forward. Just a thought.

[alfie2902]

I'm hoping there will be a way for us to keep it going.

I suspect a slightly different Wam will rise from the ashes, Martin. That said I'm sure the show could carry on under new management, if needs be!

[Effem]

It was only a matter of time before it imploded anyway.

I was disgusted at the constant foul language being used, the racism, the misogyny, the cliques of thugs and opinionated bullies who made most threads into a nightmare and as for anyone having an opinion different from the herd, it was pitiful to witness.

I personally am very sad that it went from the good intentions it began with to the cesspit it had become and to be perfectly honest James should have taken a leave of absence last year when he vowed to take a back seat for a while and not post. Instead, he saw fit to carry on to humiliate and belittle far too many people and let his own views on matters dominate the forum, encouraging those that mirrored his views. When that attitude prevails at the very top of the tree, then it comes as no surprise the fuse was already well lit for the big bang.

[jandl100]

......

Cheers
chelsea AKA russ abbott on wam.

Hey Stu - it's you! :)

I bet a fair few Wammers will make their way here.

Be nice if the old place was restarted, though - it was always intended to be a Lads Forum. Just read the AUP - if you didn't like it, you were invited not to join. Seems fair enough to me. But it just grew too popular for its own good, and too many of the newbies didn't understand the underlying ethic and f*cked it up. Real shame, imho.

And to any Wam Mods and James if they look in - Many thanks for some excellent times and a whole bunch of new friends I wouldn't have met if not for you. :cool:

[BTH K10A]

It was only a matter of time before it imploded anyway.

I was disgusted at the constant foul language being used, the racism, the misogyny, the cliques of thugs and opinionated bullies who made most threads into a nightmare and as for anyone having an opinion different from the herd, it was pitiful to witness.

I personally am very sad that it went from the good intentions it began with to the cesspit it had become and to be perfectly honest James should have taken a leave of absence last year when he vowed to take a back seat for a while and not post. Instead, he saw fit to carry on to humiliate and belittle far too many people and let his own views on matters dominate the forum, encouraging those that mirrored his views. When that attitude prevails at the very top of the tree, then it comes as no surprise the fuse was already well lit for the big bang.

+1

The question is if HFWW does not rise from the ashes, where will these people go?

[hifinutt]

Originally Posted by Duvet
Wigwam is having a sabbatical so mods and admin can make some decisions that we've frankly been putting off. Please be patient, meanwhile while i have no modding duties i'm really chilling out to this

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...9L._SS500_.jpg

thanks duvet
life would be TOTALLY DIRE without the wam, where else could i go in the middle of the night as an insommniac !!!
PLEEASE PLEESE come back soon .....

[chapter three]

A sad day. I posted a fair bit on the Wam and will miss it. I mainly visited the music section but picked up most of my kit from the classifieds there and met quite a few wammers. I'm sure something can be worked out and it will be back.

Martin
(aka Rockabillybass on the Wam)

[hifinutt]

it will be back... theres nothing like the wam. i don`t like swearing but each to their own !!! its a wonderful community as is AOS and meeting so many at scalfold has been such a pleasure including james

[Cosey Man]

missing wam myself , some like minded helpful people their , i hope it comes back

[Effem]

+1

The question is if HFWW does not rise from the ashes, where will these people go?

The question is why does anyone NEED a forum to live at?

I find it utterly bizarre that people who have previously never posted at all on this forum because obviously it holds no attractions for them at any other time, should now post here to lament the fact the owner of Hifiwigwam is closing down or taking some time off because the monster he himself has created is now biting his backside :scratch:

[paulgolding]

what a shame . . especially as I had a deal for some cd's going through :( . . could have waited until tomorrow !! :doh:

great forum, although I enjoy AOS, pinkfish and vinylengine too.

wish James all the best though

[wee tam]

And to any Wam Mods and James if they look in - Many thanks for some excellent times and a whole bunch of new friends I wouldn't have met if not for you.
+1 jerry

[wee tam]

The question is why does anyone NEED a forum to live at?

I find it utterly bizarre that people who have previously never posted at all on this forum because obviously it holds no attractions for them at any other time, should now post here to lament the fact the owner of Hifiwigwam is closing down or taking some time off because the monster he himself has created is now biting his backside :scratch:

simples ,

people keep in touch ,

and you posted often enough on the wam also ,sorry if you don't think i'm welcome :wetkipper:

[Tim]

I find it utterly bizarre that people who have previously never posted at all on this forum because obviously it holds no attractions for them at any other time, should now post here to lament the fact the owner of Hifiwigwam is closing down or taking some time off because the monster he himself has created is now biting his backside
Very good point Frank and well presented.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

It is not exactly rocket science to organise a bake-off show, I did one last October in London. The way Wigwam organised it was a complete faf, it worked and was good, but the organisation was over complicated. You just need a card with a couple of grand available on it :)

It is bloody simple, if you want to do it. Someone has to take the bull by the horns and book the hotel with a credit card as sponsorship - simples! If it is like the Scalford model then it is up to forum concerned to get the rooms pre-booked and paid for and for the other members to attend and the money taken on the gate pays the costs. The card is only taken when you check out, as with all hotel pre-bookings.

Anyway the hotel group that own Scalford (and Whittlebury Hall) are in deep doodoos, and were thinking of closing Scalford.

As I said in a previous post, if anyone wants me to do the London one again this year I will sponsor it again, but the forum(s) must make it work this time as I lost money last year on it (well set the cost against tax).

As for the saga at Wigwam, it had to happen sooner or later, it either has to change and create a new ethos (for want of a better word) or die the way Zerogain has after the aggression of two years ago killed the membership. You get one chance with a forum, you don't get it back after your reputation is shot either for boredom and lack of posts or nastiness. If you don't let it get too far you can pull it around. I thought one or two years ago this one was going wrong, but people changed and the good things and good people pulled it around, so it could be done at Wigwam. But has it gone too far, already the mass of the posters are the ones who want the shit it has become, the others are here or at PFM.

[Audioman]

The point is, it wasn't supposed to be like other forums! Why have lots of forums all the same? It was lightly modderated by choice & the AUP stated early on, the swearing & bad language was allowed & also stated that if you didn't like that then please don't join!

I guess from your post you totally missed the point of the Wam :doh:

Alot of the uncouth idiots (Thank-you!:wanker:) post on alot of other forums & where swearing is not acceptable they behave as the forum dictates :)

I got the point as far as humour is concerned but allowing swearing and abuse and confusing this as humour results in people acting in an unacceptable way. I'm sure most of these posters act quite normaly when not hiding behind a computer screen because in the real world they would probably get a good slapping.

[The Grand Wazoo]

A lot of the uncouth idiots (Thank-you!:wanker:)

Sorry Alfie, but is this supposed to demonstrate that you're not uncouth?

[Effem]

simples ,

people keep in touch ,

and you posted often enough on the wam also ,sorry if you don't think i'm welcome :wetkipper:

Let's keep this in context shall we Tommy?

I left the Wam some time ago because of the way it had become and that clown James couldn't even let me leave gracefully without doing his level best to humiliate me on the way out, nobody came to my rescue while it was going on, so you must understand I have very little time for the whiners who are lamenting that particular forum's demise.

None of that happens here because the moderators have a clear picture of how exactly the forum should be run, so to some that can mean "dull and boring" compared to the "jolly and laddish" atmosphere of the wigwam, but there are no dual standards here, there is no bullying or abuse tolerated, there is deep mutual respect for other people's opinions, hence we have civilised discussions AND disagreements without resorting to any filthy language or personal insults.

All new members are welcome here trust me and the "keyboard cowboys" when they show their hand are soon weeded out. So, by all means you are more than welcome for meaningful and beneficial participation here and rise up to this forum's standards.

[TBL]

It was only a matter of time before it imploded anyway.

I was disgusted at the constant foul language being used, the racism, the misogyny, the cliques of thugs and opinionated bullies who made most threads into a nightmare and as for anyone having an opinion different from the herd, it was pitiful to witness.

I personally am very sad that it went from the good intentions it began with to the cesspit it had become and to be perfectly honest James should have taken a leave of absence last year when he vowed to take a back seat for a while and not post. Instead, he saw fit to carry on to humiliate and belittle far too many people and let his own views on matters dominate the forum, encouraging those that mirrored his views. When that attitude prevails at the very top of the tree, then it comes as no surprise the fuse was already well lit for the big bang.

Sad, but true.

[TBL]

what a shame . . especially as I had a deal for some cd's going through :( . . could have waited until tomorrow !! :doh:

great forum, although I enjoy AOS, pinkfish and vinylengine too.

wish James all the best though

I was in the middle of a few sales of CD's on the wam which have now all fallen through I'll need to check the AUP to see if can advertise here. I know I cant on PFM

Can't check obviously but I thinks it's my sale your referring to (alphatoner)

[alfie2902]

I got the point as far as humour is concerned but allowing swearing and abuse and confusing this as humour results in people acting in an unacceptable way. I'm sure most of these posters act quite normaly when not hiding behind a computer screen because in the real world they would probably get a good slapping.

Unacceptable to whom?

The Wams AUP which was written by the forum owner & shapes what is wanted & expected on that forum said "Bad language is allowed!!!! If you do not like this, please do not join the Wam"

If you were offended you shouldn't of joined after you read the AUP!!! I take it you did read the AUP?

I assume you've been out on boys nights out & took part in the banter? Sometimes it can get close to the knuckle, but it's pretty meangless really!

All the wammers I've met & people from other forums have been very nice face to face! Things do sometimes get heated on the forums, but slapping people is far more basic than a swear word or two!!! :rolleyes:

[Bazil]

I'm a member of Wigwam, I never got involved in any of the banter, just loved the Music section and gadet section. I started a couple of threads that have run a long time one of which I update each week and would like to migrate to here if the Wam doesn't restart.
I'll speak to Marco if the Wam is dead.

[Jac Hawk]

As I said in a previous post, if anyone wants me to do the London one again this year I will sponsor it again, but the forum(s) must make it work this time as I lost money last year on it (well set the cost against tax).


A very nice offer Richard, however we don't all live in the smoke, if an event is going to happen over a weekend like Scalford then it'll turn out quite expensive for people to bring their kit down to show, far better set up an event in the Midlands and just off a major motorway like the M1 or A1, people won't mind travelling if it only takes a maximum of a couple of hours. In my opinion an enthusiasts event, which Scalford is, works in part because of it's location, being not too far away from anywhere in particular, and staying there or in the surrounding area doesn't break the bank either. Maybe these are the reasons why the event you sponsored didn't work.

[alfie2902]

Sorry Alfie, but is this supposed to demonstrate that you're not uncouth?

No, it was supposed to demonstrate that I am infact one of the dirty unwashed uncouth idiots that Audioman was talking about!

I thought it acceptable here as it is one of smilies the forum supply to be used!

But as Audioman says I am an uncouth idoit :)

[worthingpagan]

grow up :rolleyes:

[Audioman]

Unacceptable to whom?

The Wams AUP which was written by the forum owner & shapes what is wanted & expected on that forum said "Bad language is allowed!!!! If you do not like this, please do not join the Wam"

If you were offended you shouldn't of joined after you read the AUP!!! I take it you did read the AUP?

I assume you've been out on boys nights out & took part in the banter? Sometimes it can get close to the knuckle, but it's pretty meangless really!

All the wammers I've met & people from other forums have been very nice face to face! Things do sometimes get heated on the forums, but slapping people is far more basic than a swear word or two!!! :rolleyes:

There is a difference between verbal banter with the odd swear word and putting it in writing. I don't find it particularly offensive even on the forum except that an internet forum is not just viewed by you and your mates but anyone who comes upon it including children. Perhaps it needed a warning and over 18 declaration like a porn site.:) The overall impression I got was it degenerated into a sort of Hi-Fi Club 18-30. Perhaps getting too old but this sort of thing comes over as quite juvenile to a lot of people.

[Effem]

Unacceptable to whom?

The Wams AUP which was written by the forum owner & shapes what is wanted & expected on that forum said "Bad language is allowed!!!! If you do not like this, please do not join the Wam"

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.



If you were offended you shouldn't of joined after you read the AUP!!! I take it you did read the AUP?

Most people naturally assume they are communicating with like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but if it said "F*uck off stupid c*unt forum" instead of "Hifiwigwam" then nobody would be surprised at what they found.



I assume you've been out on boys nights out & took part in the banter? Sometimes it can get close to the knuckle, but it's pretty meangless really!

I can mix it with the rest of them, but I will go out to a spit and sawdust four ale bar for that kind of banter.



All the wammers I've met & people from other forums have been very nice face to face! Things do sometimes get heated on the forums, but slapping people is far more basic than a swear word or two!!! :rolleyes:

No doubt about that, I have met some top class folks too over the years and one of the biggest cynics is a real gent when met in the flesh, but why that was an impossible thing to be when behind a screen and keyboard? Why do these same people turn into a baying pack when someone asks a perfectly legitimate, normal and innocent question about . . . . . hifi on a hifi forum? :scratch:

[technobear]

I thought it acceptable here as it is one of smilies the forum supply to be used!

That smiley is an indication to others that the poster is a bit of a sad sack.

I think you're the first person ever to use it :lolsign:

[worthingpagan]

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.



Most people naturally assume they are communicating with like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but if it said "F*uck off stupid c*unt forum" instead of "Hifiwigwam" then nobody would be surprised at what they found.



I can mix it with the rest of them, but I will go out to a spit and sawdust four ale bar for that kind of banter.



No doubt about that, I have met some top class folks too over the years and one of the biggest cynics is a real gent when met in the flesh, but why that was an impossible thing to be when behind a screen and keyboard? Why do these same people turn into a baying pack when someone asks a perfectly legitimate, normal and innocent question about . . . . . hifi on a hifi forum? :scratch:


Well said mate :cool:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

A very nice offer Richard, however we don't all live in the smoke, if an event is going to happen over a weekend like Scalford then it'll turn out quite expensive for people to bring their kit down to show, far better set up an event in the Midlands and just off a major motorway like the M1 or A1, people won't mind travelling if it only takes a maximum of a couple of hours. In my opinion an enthusiasts event, which Scalford is, works in part because of it's location, being not too far away from anywhere in particular, and staying there or in the surrounding area doesn't break the bank either. Maybe these are the reasons why the event you sponsored didn't work.

It didn't work because of a few things, Wigwam refused to advertise, and the member were downright rude about it as they saw it as some sort of rip-off event so they made trouble for it on any forum they could. BUT the point is that Scalford is not a unique event, they could be organised in every major centre of population, the way commercial Hi-Fi Shows used to be and in some case still are. AND as they die (and they will) so the hobbyist / enthusiast will take up the reigns as is now happening in forums about other industry information aspects. Also I refuse to lie down when being attacked and not defended as should be by forum AUP so I have a bad rep with some and have upset and alienated some people, as has continued here a little. ANYWAY everyone who attended sang the praises of the format (different to Scalford) and the way the show informed and helped people.

http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/

Scalford doesn't, and shouldn't have a monopoly, I for one was asking for them at least two years before the first year of Scalford and was largely shouted down, so we come full circle and the same people now think the idea is theirs and unique :rolleyes: If you are keen then go out find a hotel in the area you want and then come here with costing and see what the members think. But one forum is not enough, other will have to allow promotion.

I could see this being done in all major population centres - London conurbation, W Midland conurbation, E Midland conurbation, Liverpool / Manchester conurbation, W Yorkshire conurbation and Glasgow. Even mini ones like extended bake-off in local hotel in less populated areas can be organised - the more the merrier. You just cut the cloth to fit the event. If I am toooo controversial to make it work I would happily duck out of it.

[chelsea]

It didn't work because of a few things, Wigwam refused to advertise, and the member were downright rude about it as they saw it as some sort of rip-off event so they made trouble for it on any forum they could. BUT the point is that Scalford is not a unique event, they could be organised in every major centre of population, the way commercial Hi-Fi Shows used to be and in some case still are. AND as they die (and they will) so the hobbyist / enthusiast will take up the reigns as is now happening in forums about other industry information aspects. Also I refuse to lie down when being attacked and not defended as should be by forum AUP so I have a bad rep with some and have upset and alienated some people, as has continued here a little. ANYWAY everyone who attended sang the praises of the format (different to Scalford) and the way the show informed and helped people.

http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/

Scalford doesn't, and shouldn't have a monopoly, I for one was asking for them at least two years before the first year of Scalford and was largely shouted down, so we come full circle and the same people now think the idea is theirs and unique :rolleyes: If you are keen then go out find a hotel in the area you want and then come here with costing and see what the members think. But one forum is not enough, other will have to allow promotion.

I could see this being done in all major population centres - London conurbation, W Midland conurbation, E Midland conurbation, Liverpool / Manchester conurbation, W Yorkshire conurbation and Glasgow. Even mini ones like extended bake-off in local hotel in less populated can be organised - the more the merrier. You just cut the cloth to fit the event. If I am toooo controversial to make it work I would happily duck out of it.

Were else in the uk can you see/hear hi fi from the 50s upto todays offering.:scratch:

As for easy to organise from the people i've spoke to it was a LOT of work.

[alfie2902]

There is a difference between verbal banter with the odd swear word and putting it in writing. I don't find it particularly offensive even on the forum except that an internet forum is not just viewed by you and your mates but anyone who comes upon it including children. Perhaps it needed a warning and over 18 declaration like a porn site.:) The overall impression I got was it degenerated into a sort of Hi-Fi Club 18-30. Perhaps getting too old but this sort of thing comes over as quite juvenile to a lot of people.

I do agree that perhaps it should have an over 18 declaration! Some threads are marked as 'not suitable to be open around children or at work' & that perhaps helps a little. I would think though that people supervise there children while on the internet or at least have filters in place!

Perhaps the Wam is juvenile, could be all us men are having a mid-life crisis & are trying to hang to our youth :rolleyes: But you either choose to read the forum or you choose not to! If you don't like it don't read it :cool:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Were else in the uk can you see/hear hi fi from the 50s upto todays offering.:scratch:

As for easy to organise from the people i've spoke to it was a LOT of work.

Because they made it a lot of work. It can be done a lot simpler, it seems they just wanted to faff.

It is not unique for the very reasons I said, I did one last year and anyone / forum can do one, all it needs is the will.

[alfie2902]

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.



Most people naturally assume they are communicating with like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but if it said "F*uck off stupid c*unt forum" instead of "Hifiwigwam" then nobody would be surprised at what they found.



I can mix it with the rest of them, but I will go out to a spit and sawdust four ale bar for that kind of banter.



No doubt about that, I have met some top class folks too over the years and one of the biggest cynics is a real gent when met in the flesh, but why that was an impossible thing to be when behind a screen and keyboard? Why do these same people turn into a baying pack when someone asks a perfectly legitimate, normal and innocent question about . . . . . hifi on a hifi forum? :scratch:

Frank, the Wam is owned by James! Just as AoS is owned by Marco! We are just their guests, If need be either can ban me, I can't ban them & neither can any of the membership! It is their choice on what happens on their forum James pulling the plug pretty much tells you this!!!

As you say you visit a spit & sawdust pub when you want that expierence & that sort of banter! So why should forums be different? you visit the one or ones that fit the expierence you are looking for!

If you don't like the spit & sawdust pub then don't visit! I am though old enough to make my own choice which pub I visit & sometimes the Wam fits!

[Jac Hawk]

I do agree that perhaps it should have an over 18 declaration! Some threads are marked as 'not suitable to be open around children or at work' & that perhaps helps a little. I would think though that people supervise there children while on the internet or at least have filters in place!

Perhaps the Wam is juvenile, could be all us men are having a mid-life crisis & are trying to hang to our youth :rolleyes: But you either choose to read the forum or you choose not to! If you don't like it don't read it :cool:

But why the need to use language only fit for the gutter when talking about HIFI :scratch: Ok you may need to use the odd colourful metaphor to show your feelings on a subject, i do on the AoS, but at the WAM they really did go way way too far

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Frank, the Wam is owned by James! Just as AoS is owned by Marco! We are just their guests, If need be either can ban me, I can't ban them & neither can any of the membership! It is their choice on what happens on their forum James pulling the plug pretty much tells you this!!!

As you say you visit a spit & sawdust pub when you want that expierence & that sort of banter! So why should forums be different? you visit the one or ones that fit the expierence you are looking for!

If you don't like the spit & sawdust pub then don't visit! I am though old enough to make my own choice which pub I visit & sometimes the Wam fits!

The problem is it is not an enclosed private area like pub is, we are talking about a public forum with access from anyone who has a computer whether you are member or not. If you want to make that comparison then make the forum content only viewable when you join.

[hifinutt]

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.

yes totally agree frank

[Jac Hawk]

It didn't work because of a few things, Wigwam refused to advertise, and the member were downright rude about it as they saw it as some sort of rip-off event so they made trouble for it on any forum they could. BUT the point is that Scalford is not a unique event, they could be organised in every major centre of population, the way commercial Hi-Fi Shows used to be and in some case still are. AND as they die (and they will) so the hobbyist / enthusiast will take up the reigns as is now happening in forums about other industry information aspects. Also I refuse to lie down when being attacked and not defended as should be by forum AUP so I have a bad rep with some and have upset and alienated some people, as has continued here a little. ANYWAY everyone who attended sang the praises of the format (different to Scalford) and the way the show informed and helped people.

http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/

Scalford doesn't, and shouldn't have a monopoly, I for one was asking for them at least two years before the first year of Scalford and was largely shouted down, so we come full circle and the same people now think the idea is theirs and unique :rolleyes: If you are keen then go out find a hotel in the area you want and then come here with costing and see what the members think. But one forum is not enough, other will have to allow promotion.

I could see this being done in all major population centres - London conurbation, W Midland conurbation, E Midland conurbation, Liverpool / Manchester conurbation, W Yorkshire conurbation and Glasgow. Even mini ones like extended bake-off in local hotel in less populated areas can be organised - the more the merrier. You just cut the cloth to fit the event. If I am toooo controversial to make it work I would happily duck out of it.
Wasn't really interested about your disagreements with other sites and their members, the point i was trying to make is that a major enthusiasts
event is best placed where people from all over, and not just the south east would consider attending, that's why i said in the Midlands.

[wee tam]

Were else in the uk can you see/hear hi fi from the 50s upto todays offering.:scratch:

As for easy to organise from the people i've spoke to it was a LOT of work.

+ 1 :) and if it was that easy , where is the a o s pie fi being held ?

[chelsea]

But why the need to use language only fit for the gutter when talking about HIFI :scratch: Ok you may need to use the odd colourful metaphor to show your feelings on a subject, i do on the AoS, but at the WAM they really did go way way too far

I think most swearing was done in the pub/car park section and not the hifi/music section.

I don't get offended by swearing but of course some people do.

[loosend]

I would like to say (being a mod on another forum myself) tAos is very well run place to be involved with, we pride our forum on the quality of it's members and the good nature of its posts, we have very few issues and any are deLt with appropriately and behind the scenes as not to effect the structure of the forum and the morals we like to implement from all who post.
It's nice to be able to give praise where praise is due!

So to Marco and the other mods along with the members here who are all good guys from my experience, I just wanted to commend u all on making this forum very welcoming and interesting :)

[alfie2902]

The problem is it is not an enclosed private area like pub is, we are talking about a public forum with access from anyone who has a computer whether you are member or not. If you want to make that comparison then make the forum content only viewable when you join.

Richard, I don't own the forum so don't have that power, none of the membership does, as you well know!

I wouldn't have a problem with a member only viewable forum, but that would be the owners choice again!

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

+ 1 :) and if it was that easy , where is the a o s pie fi being held ?

Where ever the membership wants it held, or if a member wants to try and find a hotel, cost it, and put it up as a proposition. Then ask for a volunteer to sponsor it who has a card credit with the adequate credit, then the membership back it up and support it - simples!

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Richard, I don't own the forum so don't have that power, none of the membership does, as you well know!

I wouldn't have a problem with a member only viewable forum, but that would be the owners choice again!

Well it seems to me that the content at Wigwam, which such a large number of people here object to, makes it a requisite. Then they can all do and say what they want to each other without offending anyone else. Plus people have to make an effort to walk through the door, so if they don't like it, then tough.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Wasn't really interested about your disagreements with other sites and their members, the point i was trying to make is that a major enthusiasts
event is best placed where people from all over, and not just the south east would consider attending, that's why i said in the Midlands.

Then I say again, why does it have to be one. Was there just one commercial hi-fi show? Forums and other on line aspects are the future of this industry, and this aspect is just an extension of that community.

[alfie2902]

Well it seems to me that the content at Wigwam, which such a large number of people here object to, makes it a requisite. Then they can all do and say what they want to each other without offending anyone else. Plus people have to make an effort to walk through the door, so if they don't like it, then tough.

Richard, they have to make an effort to walk through the door now! No one is forced to read the Wam, it is a choice!! So why read it then moan about it when you choose to read it!!!!

It's cool that people have the choice to be here & enjoy the forum! They have the choice, they do not have to visit the Wam if they find it offensive or not to their likeing!

Anyway I'm going to step out of this one, as you can see I enjoyed the Wam! & I also enjoy being here & I don't suppose Marco needs or wants this here! So apoliges Marco. :cool:

[chelsea]

I don't belive there would be enough interest in each city to get 50 different systems and hundreds of paying punters to make it break even.

50 systems was only just managed at scalford.

[Effem]

Frank, the Wam is owned by James! Just as AoS is owned by Marco! We are just their guests, If need be either can ban me, I can't ban them & neither can any of the membership! It is their choice on what happens on their forum James pulling the plug pretty much tells you this!!!

As you say you visit a spit & sawdust pub when you want that expierence & that sort of banter! So why should forums be different? you visit the one or ones that fit the expierence you are looking for!

If you don't like the spit & sawdust pub then don't visit! I am though old enough to make my own choice which pub I visit & sometimes the Wam fits!

A history lesson might be appropriate here Alfie.

Hifiwigwam was born pure and simply from the problems hi-fi choice had and a few of us decided we would break away and create our own forum to get away from those problems. Nobody nominated James to set up that forum, but we went with the flow based upon his character he demonstrated. I was going to set it up myself but held back because I had trade interests I thought it would not be appropriate. The ethos was it was purely a forum where we could discuss our hobby without flaming, we could discuss contentious issues like cables without the 1000+ vitriolic posts that regularly occurred on HFC.

For the first year it was exactly that and yes some politically incorrect threads were started and James was on top of them in an instant. He upset my missus over her crystal healing beliefs and I can still remember word for word the sincere apology he wrote to her. I took him to task about the "C" word being increasingly used on the forum which my missus found so offensive and he took steps to stop it - that was all we asked, just that ONE word, which he did for a while.

I drove clean across the country to attend a bakeoff he was hosting and he was the epitome of charm and nicety, a really nice guy to meet. I had met him previously to that at a bakeoff in Bristol and the damn fool scratched the living daylights out of my PS Audio power amp by placing a DAC on it with spikes underneath, then at his bakeoff he managed to fry someone's Linn Classik by shorting the speaker wires together, but no matter, James was a likeable chap and it was easy to forgive his mistakes.

Year three and James was a changed man. Suddenly he had "seen the light" about cables and tweaks, so that became his entire Mantra from then on. He became the biggest anti-foo protagonist and while I didn't particularly mind that, it was the offensiveness in which that Mantra was delivered with, that I had serious issues with. No longer the ordinary hi-fi enthusiast that I knew at the beginning, willing to share his experiences with others, he was on an ego trip being the "forum owner" and had become a total bully from that position.

From then until now it has been downhill all the way for me and his bigotry has got worse and worse - as anyone who read his recent rant about public sector workers will testify.

In summary then, if the wigwam was originally conceived to be a spit and sawdust four ale bar, with disgusting language being used, overt racism and misogyny, condoned bullying and abuse, then as you say I would have steered well clear from the outset, or not allowed it to be created in the first place had I known that the "owner" would turn it into a bear pit of the worst kind, his personal playground for his inflated ego.

[Jac Hawk]

Then I say again, why does it have to be one. Was there just one commercial hi-fi show? Forums and other on line aspects are the future of this industry, and this aspect is just an extension of that community.

There can be as many as you want, but you've already highlighted the main problem, attendance, if there was an event on every week, some would be popular and some would die, leaving someone with a bill to pay, Commercial events are different and no one person is left with a bill if it isn't successful, a major event once or twice a year organised and run by enthusiasts, would mean that it would be fun, well attended and successful.:)

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Richard, they have to make an effort to walk through the door now! No one is forced to read the Wam, it is a choice!! So why read it then moan about it when you choose to read it!!!!


We all wander around the web, it just take a step to put your foot in sh1t. If you have to join then you take the consequences of stepping in it, it was your choice.

Personally I joined Wigwam about four years ago, without realising the place it was. Made one post about ebay and got attacked immediately by the in crowd dog pack. Next was a post from James demanding £50 for the privilege of being insulted, so both were told where they could stick it.

[ursus262]

I'm sure most of these posters act quite normaly when not hiding behind a computer screen because in the real world they would probably get a good slapping.

Quite!

[Jac Hawk]

A history lesson might be appropriate here Alfie.

Hifiwigwam was born pure and simply from the problems hi-fi choice had and a few of us decided we would break away and create our own forum to get away from those problems. Nobody nominated James to set up that forum, but we went with the flow based upon his character he demonstrated. I was going to set it up myself but held back because I had trade interests I thought it would not be appropriate. The ethos was it was purely a forum where we could discuss our hobby without flaming, we could discuss contentious issues like cables without the 1000+ vitriolic posts that regularly occurred on HFC.

For the first year it was exactly that and yes some politically incorrect threads were started and James was on top of them in an instant. He upset my missus over her crystal healing beliefs and I can still remember word for word the sincere apology he wrote to her. I took him to task about the "C" word being increasingly used on the forum which my missus found so offensive and he took steps to stop it - that was all we asked, just that ONE word, which he did for a while.

I drove clean across the country to attend a bakeoff he was hosting and he was the epitome of charm and nicety, a really nice guy to meet. I had met him previously to that at a bakeoff in Bristol and the damn fool scratched the living daylights out of my PS Audio power amp by placing a DAC on it with spikes underneath, then at his bakeoff he managed to fry someone's Linn Classik by shorting the speaker wires together, but no matter, James was a likeable chap and it was easy to forgive his mistakes.

Year three and James was a changed man. Suddenly he had "seen the light" about cables and tweaks, so that became his entire Mantra from then on. He became the biggest anti-foo protagonist and while I didn't particularly mind that, it was the offensiveness in which that Mantra was delivered with, that I had serious issues with. No longer the ordinary hi-fi enthusiast that I knew at the beginning, willing to share his experiences with others, he was on an ego trip being the "forum owner" and had become a total bully from that position.

From then until now it has been downhill all the way for me and his bigotry has got worse and worse - as anyone who read his recent rant about public sector workers will testify.

In summary then, if the wigwam was originally conceived to be a spit and sawdust four ale bar, with disgusting language being used, overt racism and misogyny, condoned bullying and abuse, then as you say I would have steered well clear from the outset, or not allowed it to be created in the first place had I known that the "owner" would turn it into a bear pit of the worst kind, his personal playground for his inflated ego.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely :eyebrows:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I don't belive there would be enough interest in each city to get 50 different systems and hundreds of paying punters to make it break even.

50 systems was only just managed at scalford.

Why does it have to be so large, are domestic bake-off that large, in that case do people not enjoy them. This type of event can be scaled up or down at will.

[Marco]

Guys,

I've been out all day, so have missed this discussion, and am shocked to hear of what's happened to Wigwam. I'm having a read through the thread now and will comment in due course.

However, just one quick point....

Let's not turn this into a Wigwam slagging match (as the nature of some of the posts here have indicated - and indeed if there are any more of these, they will be deleted), but rather offer our collective thoughts as to how we (AoS) can help with what is obviously a very difficult situation for some.

Ok, so let's keep it friendly, and I will comment further, as soon as I have read the thread properly :cool:

Marco.

[AlanB]

A very sad day. Almost a meeting place for many hifi enthusiasts.
Thanks to James and the Mods who made it so informative and entertaining.

[Effem]

We all wander around the web, it just take a step to put your foot in sh1t. If you have to join then you take the consequences of stepping in it, it was your choice.

Personally I joined Wigwam about four years ago, without realising the place it was. Made one post about ebay and got attacked immediately by the in crowd dog pack. Next was a post from James demanding £50 for the privilege of being insulted, so both were told where they could stick it.

Thank you Richard for reminding me about another point.

Let's not forget either that James was also signing up members at £5.00 a pop, plus as Richard says £50 from the dealers/traders, plus extra for their banner adverts, money from Google too, so I cannot accept it was a huge drain on his financial resources, so the cries of poverty don't wash with me. Marco does the same job and far better too I might add with NO money rolling in from the members and dealers.

And for Marco's benefit, I am not "slagging off the Wigwam" but it does stick in my throat somewhat that the apparent demise of the forum should prompt the sudden influx of it's members to shed tears here when heretofore they never set foot n the place. Fine, it has collapsed, I really don't want to read about it.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Thank you Richard for reminding me about another point.

Let's not forget either that James was also signing up members at £5.00 a pop, plus as Richard says £50 from the dealers/traders, plus extra for their banner adverts, money from Google too, so I cannot accept it was a huge drain on his financial resources, so the cries of poverty don't wash with me. Marco does the same job and far better too I might add with NO money rolling in from the members and dealers.

It has seemed to me for a while now that one is doing it for the love of the hobby and the other is doing it for the hatred of the industry.

Oh! and BTW does this latest event mean he is going to refund that to the people who paid it recently. The £50 was an annual charge.

[ursus262]

... but rather offer our collective thoughts as to how we (AoS) can help with what is obviously a very difficult situation for some.

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

[Jac Hawk]

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

well said David:)

[Tim]

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.
AoS has been doing that for as long as I've been here and a long-time before that too.

[Marco]

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.


Absolutely, David - and rest assured, those values we hold dearly will never be abandoned.

However, if James has pulled the plug full-time (which I suspect not - I'm sure he'll reconsider and use this opportunity to have a rethink in terms of the direction the forum was going in), there will be a lot of frustrated and unhappy (good) people who might need our help in keeping a chain of communication open, such as with classified ads, etc, which others have already alluded to.

At the moment, that's what I'm concerned with the most :)

So if there are (temporary) ex-Wigwammers out there, who would like AoS to facilitate the above (should they not already be using pfm), then they are most welcome to join :cool:

Marco.

[technobear]

And for Marco's benefit, I am not "slagging off the Wigwam" but...

Oh yes you are! You're a very naughty boy. I am detecting the smell of grapes and not of the sweet variety http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/cuff.gif


...it does stick in my throat somewhat that the apparent demise of the forum should prompt the sudden influx of it's members to shed tears here when heretofore they never set foot n the place.

Most of them have gone to Pink Fish. Let's hope all the measurement trolls headed that way and all those with ears head this way :lolsign:

[alfie2902]

A history lesson might be appropriate here Alfie.

Hifiwigwam was born pure and simply from the problems hi-fi choice had and a few of us decided we would break away and create our own forum to get away from those problems. Nobody nominated James to set up that forum, but we went with the flow based upon his character he demonstrated. I was going to set it up myself but held back because I had trade interests I thought it would not be appropriate. The ethos was it was purely a forum where we could discuss our hobby without flaming, we could discuss contentious issues like cables without the 1000+ vitriolic posts that regularly occurred on HFC.

For the first year it was exactly that and yes some politically incorrect threads were started and James was on top of them in an instant. He upset my missus over her crystal healing beliefs and I can still remember word for word the sincere apology he wrote to her. I took him to task about the "C" word being increasingly used on the forum which my missus found so offensive and he took steps to stop it - that was all we asked, just that ONE word, which he did for a while.

I drove clean across the country to attend a bakeoff he was hosting and he was the epitome of charm and nicety, a really nice guy to meet. I had met him previously to that at a bakeoff in Bristol and the damn fool scratched the living daylights out of my PS Audio power amp by placing a DAC on it with spikes underneath, then at his bakeoff he managed to fry someone's Linn Classik by shorting the speaker wires together, but no matter, James was a likeable chap and it was easy to forgive his mistakes.

Year three and James was a changed man. Suddenly he had "seen the light" about cables and tweaks, so that became his entire Mantra from then on. He became the biggest anti-foo protagonist and while I didn't particularly mind that, it was the offensiveness in which that Mantra was delivered with, that I had serious issues with. No longer the ordinary hi-fi enthusiast that I knew at the beginning, willing to share his experiences with others, he was on an ego trip being the "forum owner" and had become a total bully from that position.

From then until now it has been downhill all the way for me and his bigotry has got worse and worse - as anyone who read his recent rant about public sector workers will testify.

In summary then, if the wigwam was originally conceived to be a spit and sawdust four ale bar, with disgusting language being used, overt racism and misogyny, condoned bullying and abuse, then as you say I would have steered well clear from the outset, or not allowed it to be created in the first place had I known that the "owner" would turn it into a bear pit of the worst kind, his personal playground for his inflated ego.

Well I said I was out of this one, but all the effort deserves a reply!

Thanks for the history lesson Frank, but any personal problems you've got with James are not my business & It's harsh as he has no right to reply!

Forums grow & change & that can't be to everyones liking, even some of the founder members aren't going to like everything. Peoples beliefs may change & they are entitled to there opinion, as you are to yours!

I agree it can get a bit much when the pack mentality kicks in & everybody is entitled to their opinion & they argue that, with some they argue their point a little strongly! If the forum is not what you like or want, you leave & find somewhere more to your liking & beliefs. Which is what you've done, but your experience is not mine & I was still enjoying some of what the Wam had to offer, the humour & off the wall style I enjoy! I have had far more pleasure than displeasure there even as a ADM9 owner :)

[Cosey Man]

Absolutely, David - and rest assured, those values we hold dearly will never be abandoned.

However, if James has pulled the plug full-time (which I suspect not), there will be a lot of frustrated and unhappy (good) people who might need our help in keeping a chain of communication open, such as with classified ads, etc, which others have already alluded to.

At the moment, that's what I'm concerned with the most :)

So if there are (temporary) ex-Wigwammers out there, who would like AoS to facilitate the above, then they are most welcome to join :cool:

Marco.

an excellent post there Marco as i am new, i was a newer member on the wam, & their are plenty of good people that i seen their ,that would fit in well with this forum, not all were foul mouthed .

[StanleyB]

It's harsh as he has no right to reply!
And neither did many of us who have been frequently spoken ill of, or our products castigated, on wigwam. So your point in defence of wigwam holds no water with me.

[ursus262]

AoS has been doing that for as long as I've been here and a long-time before that too.

That's alright then.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

And neither did many of us who have been frequently spoken ill of, or our products castigated, on wigwam. So your point in defence of wigwam holds no water with me.

+1

[alfie2902]

And neither did many of us who have been frequently spoken ill of, or our products castigated, on wigwam. So your point in defence of wigwam holds no water with me.

I have no fight with you Stan! But two wrongs don't make a right! :)

[MartinT]

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

Nicely said, David.

[Marco]

an excellent post there Marco as i am new, i was a newer member on the wam, & their are plenty of good people that i seen their ,that would fit in well with this forum, not all were foul mouthed .


No problem, Jim :)

Hi Alfie,


Thanks for the history lesson Frank, but any personal problems you've got with James are not my business & It's harsh as he has no right to reply!


Au contraire, James is not banned from here, so should he decide to make any comment, he is more than welcome to join and do so :cool:

Marco.

[alfie2902]

No problem, Jim :)

Hi Alfie,



Au contraire, James is not banned from here, so should he decide to make any comment, he is more than welcome to join and do so :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

My mistake, sorry! The rest of the post stands though!

I can understand people venting over any wrong they see the wam has done now it is no more (temporarily perhaps) but I've enjoyed my time there, as I do here, & will say things as I see them :)

[ursus262]

Excuse me while I ramble, but yesterday I bought an SACD of some works by Per Norgard, a Danish composer. I sat today, slack-jawed, at some of the most beautiful music ever composed that was coming out of my speakers.

This is what my hi-fi is for: to act as a conduit through which I can be moved by artistes' musical messages. It saddens me to see such bickering because, actually, it's just quite pathetic. :(

Even on AoS, a thread about cables had to be locked because it descended into a slanging match between two opposing sides, with each trying to rubbish the other's point of view. I sometimes wish people would state their view from the heart, but plainly and clearly, and leave it at that. But too often, ego gets in the way. It's all so unnecessary.

[RotaryConnection]

Some true colours emerging here-no surprise really but just a wee bit disappointing when some seem to be putting themselves forward as paragons of virtue..
Frank, I wondered why you left with such bad feeling, I understand somewhat better why now and I'm sorry for it-enjoyed reading a lot of posts you made there.
The bitterness that comes across is not a good look though regardless.
Regularly log in to WW, AoS and PFM as they all have their own nuances and strengths, that WW is the only one I usually post on is more habit than anything else.
Lack of free time too maybe..
Personally, I've never been particularly offended nor I hope, caused offence on any one of them, but The Wam is the only one that has regularly cracked me up laughing at some of the things people have posted there-each to their own I guess, but free will whether to look or participate..As with many things in life, you get out what you put in to it.
Hanging around for long enough and in some cases meeting up with people there,you get a feel of what they're really about and see through the noise.
Incidently, James was perfectly civil in apologising to me when I pulled him up about his comments on public sector workers. We might have different political views, but I can see past that, same as most of the other ranting.
It's great that Marco and Tony are accomodating talk while WW remains closed, much appreciated.

[thaiman]

Wigwam forum was known for arguments (in the last few years any way), and look around now, only few hours after James pull the plug (and even then still not certain it's close for good), there are three threads in 3 different forums, arguing about Wigwam forum. :doh:

[Stratmangler]

Wigwam forum was known for arguments (in the last few years any way), and look around now, only few hours after James pull the plug (and even then still not certain it's close for good), there are three threads in 3 different forums, arguing about Wigwam forum. :doh:

I wouldn't so much describe what's going on here as arguement, more like discussion.

[Marco]

Yup, Chris, but I suspect that there's a bit of a language barrier thing going on. Thaiman, what's your first name, mate? :)

Marco.

[rednose66]

It is James decision as forum owner if he wants to pull the plug. What may well upset some people is that he did it with very little warning. A few days would have ensured that people - like myself - who can't always check in through the day would have had enough warning to save important PM details - especially where equipment / software was in the process of changing hands.

[Stratmangler]

Yup, Chris, but I suspect that there's a bit of a language barrier thing going on. Thaiman, what's your first name, mate? :)

Marco.

Point taken :)

[montesquieu]

Well I think it's sad that the Wam has gone, but entirely understandable given how things have played out ... the Wam was always a multi-faceted place, with generally good manners (barring the tedious cable wars) on the main hifi forums, contrasted by often outrageous behavior on the non-hifi sections, which TBH I mainly steered clear of.

I heard it described once as a raucous pub with a hifi forum attached, that is certainly what it had become by the time I joined in 2008 or so. The 'anti' nature of the place never bothered me as it was more than made up for by the generosity of the positive contributors (who were often the same people, in fact, posting differently in different sub-forums).

I made some great friends there and attended my share of bakeoffs/Scalford events that manged to be both fun and highly educational at the same time.

If James and the mods are reading I'd very much like to than them for creating and sustaining that environment. Whatever feelings are going on for them right now, and whatever nonsense they've been subjected to, the vast majority of wammers I'm sure feel nothing but sympathy and gratitude.

I've been more than an occasional visitor here on AoS of late - the laid-back feel is quite to my taste in contrast to some other places - and it's nice to see some familiar usernames too - and it looks like my visits will be even more regular from now on.

[thaiman]

Yup, Chris, but I suspect that there's a bit of a language barrier thing going on. Thaiman, what's your first name, mate? :)

Marco.

We met at the show I do believe, I am the one that keep poping in and admire your retro speakers, peeps know me as OB1 as my real name is few foot long :)

[Alex_UK]

We met at the show I do believe, I am the one that keep poping in and admire your retro speakers, peeps know me as OB1 as my real name is few foot long :)

There was no language barrier coming from your room at Scalford this year - a few bleeding ears, maybe! ;) Unless I got the wrong guy! It was a busy day! :)

[loosend]

Most of them have gone to Pink Fish. Let's hope all the measurement trolls headed that way and all those with ears head this way :lolsign:

Quality!

[Marco]

Ok guys, having read through this thread, and the concurrent one on pfm, I have an inkling now as to the likely real situation that exists.

It appears that James has been under threat recently from litigation by certain parties, due to issues of potential libel, to the extent that Wigwam may have been closed down, and so that alone would've been causing some concern.

However, as if that wasn't enough, it was compounded by a contentious and (apparently) highly volatile thread about Google and the possible introduction of a swear filter, which aggravated certain people, and the whole thing got out of hand.

That's my (rather limited) précis of the situation, and I will make no further comment, as it's got nothing to do with AoS or me. But my gut feeling is that James will only have pulled the plug temporarily in order to get some breathing space and collate his thoughts about what to do in the long term, and so I fully believe that Wigwam will be back sooner rather than later.

He may also be using the opportunity to send a message to certain people to 'wake up and smell the coffee' and using the shock treatment of temporarily removing their 'playground', with the threat of it being permanent, in order to 'refocus' a few minds..... I remember that last year James did a similar thing when he mentioned that he was going to sell Wigwam, because it was all becoming too much, and look what happened then.

So no, I'm almost certain that Wigwam will be back, but there will likely be some significant changes, and James may indeed distance himself more from the day to day running of the forum, which in terms of the impact it was making on his personal life, may not be a bad thing. I wish him the best in whatever he decides.

The Scalford Hall show was mentioned, and I will state now that in the unlikely event of the plug being pulled on Wigwam permanently, and/or James not wanting to take on the responsibility of running the event in future, I would be happy to take it on, and run the show the way that Wammers (since it was mainly their event) wanted. It would certainly be organised sympathetically to the requirements of their members and not lose the fun factor and camaraderie which made it special.

Therefore, if or when James decides to pull out of the scene, then I will ensure that the Scalford show will NOT die - you have my promise on that. However, let's not jump the gun, and simply allow the dust to settle on recent events on Wigwam and see how things develop in due course, and ascertain the best way of moving things forward in everyone's interests.

Basically, AoS and me are here to help if necessary! :cool:

Marco.

[chelsea]

Ok guys, having read through this thread, and the concurrent one on pfm, I have an inkling now as to the likely real situation that exists.

It appears that James has been under threat recently from litigation by certain parties, due to issues of potential libel, to the extent that Wigwam may have been closed down, and so that alone would've been causing some concern.

However, as if that wasn't enough, it was compounded by a contentious and (apparently) highly volatile thread about Google and the possible introduction of a swear filter, which aggravated certain people, and the whole thing got out of hand.

That's my (rather limited) précis of the situation, and I will make no further comment, as it's got nothing to do with AoS or me. But my gut feeling is that James will only have pulled the plug temporarily in order to get some breathing space and collate his thoughts about what to do in the long term, and so I fully believe that Wigwam will be back sooner rather than later.

He may also be using the opportunity to send a message to certain people to 'wake up and smell the coffee' and using the shock treatment of temporarily removing their 'playground', with the threat of it being permanent, in order to 'refocus' a few minds..... I remember that last year James did a similar thing when he mentioned that he was going to sell Wigwam, because it was all becoming too much, and look what happened then.

So no, I'm almost certain that Wigwam will be back, but there will likely be some significant changes, and James may indeed distance himself more from the day to day running of the forum, which in terms of the impact it was making on his personal life, may not be a bad thing. I wish him the best in whatever he decides.

The Scalford Hall show was mentioned, and I will state now that in the unlikely event of the plug being pulled on Wigwam permanently, and/or James not wanting to take on the responsibility of running the event in future, I would be happy to take it on, and run the show the way that Wammers (since it was mainly their event) wanted. It would certainly be organised sympathetically to the requirements of their members and not lose the fun factor and camaraderie which made it special.

Therefore, if or when James decides to pull out of the scene, then I will makes sure that the Scalford show will NOT die - you have my promise on that. However, let's not jump the gun, and simply allow the dust to settle on recent events on Wigwam and see how things develop in due course, and ascertain the best way of moving things forward in everyone's interests.

Basically, AoS and me are here to help if necessary! :cool:

Marco.

Good post.
I think the dust needs to settle a bit.

[loosend]

Good man Marco!

[Marco]

We met at the show I do believe, I am the one that keep poping in and admire your retro speakers, peeps know me as OB1 as my real name is few foot long :)

Hi mate, yup I remember you now! How's it going? :)

Yes you did seem rather 'taken' with the old Celests! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Marco]

And for Marco's benefit, I am not "slagging off the Wigwam" but it does stick in my throat somewhat that the apparent demise of the forum should prompt the sudden influx of it's members to shed tears here when heretofore they never set foot n the place.

No problem, Frank. You know the point I was making, but your eloquently expressed thoughts, as usual, are always welcomed :)

Any Wammers not already using pfm as their temporary (or permanent) home are very welcome to post here, however of course 'keyboard warriors', or those with unwanted agendas, will be given short shrift.

One comment I read from Robert on pfm, which I totally agree with is this:


The time and workload issue should be do-able with a big enough and committed moderation team. I can see issues where a forum owner is running a busy forum as a hobby, ie they are also doing a full time day job. In that situation it would surely make sense to delegate quite heavily. The situation is different I think were the forum is your job and income stream. In a way I think that's way pfm works well - Admin have time to run the place and the mods share the remainder of the load.

Although AoS isn't my income stream, the reason why here and pfm work so well is because Tony and I have the time to do the job properly; and crucially, we have a very good team to help us with the process. I can say that especially of here. Once a forum gets beyond having a certain amount of members and activity level, it's impossible to run the site yourself on a part-time basis, and do the job properly, as eventually it will all come crashing down around you.

Therefore, if Wigwam is to survive in the long-term, then I think that James must delegate and rely on his team more, and subsequently take more of a back seat, as I know all too well that the pressures of trying to keep everyone happy, and take a busy forum in the direction you want, can be very challenging and all-consuming.

Marco.

[zanash]

to be honest ...they had lost the plot a while ago

the language used at time by some members was reprehensable...an for the mods to just sit there and do nothing ...

you need strong mods ...not affraid to upset mates

the other thing about wam was that ...if you upset a clique ..you were subject to bullying

I was banned from wam .....I suspect for saying just that ...but as james refused to tell me why he banned me ..... so I can't be absolutely certain.


As to scalford ...most if not all wammers are on other forums ...should not be to hard to pick up the peices if theres a will ...

[Gazjam]

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

+1 :cool:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

My suggestion would be to make this thread or a special thread as a contact wall, like they have after all disasters. There seem to be people wandering around here and at PFM looking for people who were buying their gear, people who paid, etc, just generally people who have lost PM and contact information. That is the main problem as I see it.

Something like "Blue Eyes searching for Cuddly Bunny, I miss you, and where is my bloody CD player" :)

[Marco]

That's the main problem as I see it too, Richard. So what would you suggest as the best way of making this thread a "contact wall", as you call it? :)

Marco.

[howlindawg]

made a lot of good friends over the years :) will now have to start all over again :scratch:

You've still got one here buddy.

[Joe]

Public information announcement from James via yer PFM:

"Poor Tony, he now has you to deal with.

Gent's reading this thread this morning and the emails you have all sent really has been quite emotional frankly. That you all support and understand my decision is really quite fantastic.

I know that several people have unfinished business on the classifieds. I will open the forum this evening for the whole evening so that people can get messages to and from each other. Include phone numbers and email addresses in your PMs, as the PM content is also sent via email. That way you should all be able to conclude your business.

Having had a really nice day yesterday, playing cricket in the Sunshine and enjoying a few beers with friends and now having slept on this decision, I feel I need to put a time limit on what is going to happen. I am going to be working away for much of this week, and have a busy weekend ahead, so I think next Monday will be when you hear from me again. I need time to consider what to do.

As I own the commercial rights to the Scalford show I guess many of you will be worried about that. I really want to make sure Scalford happens next year. I am sure some of you will be keen to make it happen, rest assured if the forum closes permanently I think we can still make Scalford go ahead.

I think leaving the forum closed for a while for us all to have a good think, without the distractions of forum life will be a good thing for everyone.

As some have mentioned here, it's boisterous nature has been both the secret of it's success and the reason for it's downfall.

There have been plenty of good ideas here as to how we can move on, I will take them all on board and give them due consideration. Deep down I don't want the wigwam to die like this, but something had to give and for it to continue some things will need to change. What and how, I am not sure yet. But I am thinking about it carefully and I will be missing it's social side as much as the rest of you over the coming days..

We do have a Face book community at https://www.facebook.com/pages/HiFiW...80770915279077

And I am sure the polite and courteous ones of you will be welcome here.

I'll speak to you soon. Phoenix rising from the ashes emoticon anyone? Let's hope so.


Thanks chaps. Seriously restored my faith in the Interwebs.
James."

So there you go.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Bloody Prima Donna, so it was all about needing people to say they love him :lol::ner:

[Effem]

Oh yes you are! You're a very naughty boy. I am detecting the smell of grapes and not of the sweet variety http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/cuff.gif

Not entirely true Chris that I have sour grapes, more a case of disappointment of what could have been had it been managed properly - I left of my own free will because I had that choice. I also see the benefits too, how else would we have met and had some cracking good bakeoffs?

If I were to be completely honest now, it was finding AoS that has also thrown my time at WW into very sharp contrast because there is a deep foundation laid here how the forum operates and how the membership conducts themselves. I have not seen any dual standards, back-biting, bullying or petty squabbles and yes there has been hot topics and questions about my own points of view, but always resolved with great courtesy and respect. Maybe had I not found AoS I could have just let it lie.

Maybe I am naive to believe that in my utopian world we can huddle together in our microcosm and chew the fat, discuss and pass on experiences and great tips about our little (expensive) passion and that perhaps I lavished too much expectations on WW being just that without sinking down to where it did. My good lady wife often said to me that I am not wrong for hoping that forum would be a gathering place for like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but she believed a good portion of the membership were there simply on an ego trip looking for an argument and the "hi-fi" part was pretty much secondary. She was not wrong either.

[Marco]

Nice one, Joe. That's pretty much how I thought the situation would be, and so good news for all Wammers and Scalford show goers :)

James has fired his shot across the bow, and so hopefully will have achieved the intended effect!

When Wigwam is back, let's hope that all those who took it for granted and selfishly used it as their own private playground, have a right good look in the mirror and change their behaviour, as if that crap happens again, I think it will be the final straw that broke the camel's back.......

Marco.

[John]

Looks like wigwam will be back but perhaps a bit different to the past
I am sure there will be a way forward for people and they can be part of wigwam again

[zanash]

Not entirely true Chris that I have sour grapes, more a case of disappointment of what could have been had it been managed properly - I left of my own free will because I had that choice. I also see the benefits too, how else would we have met and had some cracking good bakeoffs?

If I were to be completely honest now, it was finding AoS that has also thrown my time at WW into very sharp contrast because there is a deep foundation laid here how the forum operates and how the membership conducts themselves. I have not seen any dual standards, back-biting, bullying or petty squabbles and yes there has been hot topics and questions about my own points of view, but always resolved with great courtesy and respect. Maybe had I not found AoS I could have just let it lie.

Maybe I am naive to believe that in my utopian world we can huddle together in our microcosm and chew the fat, discuss and pass on experiences and great tips about our little (expensive) passion and that perhaps I lavished too much expectations on WW being just that without sinking down to where it did. My good lady wife often said to me that I am not wrong for hoping that forum would be a gathering place for like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but she believed a good portion of the membership were there simply on an ego trip looking for an argument and the "hi-fi" part was pretty much secondary. She was not wrong either.

I'll second those sentiments ....

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Looks like wigwam will be back but perhaps a bit different to the past
I am sure there will be a way forward for people and they can be part of wigwam again
Sorry this is wishful thinking, IMO obviously, but that many people don't change overnight. They were there because that is the way they wanted it. For a few days, maybe a week they will all pussy foot around. But someone will arrive and ask a silly newby question, or someone will ask about cable, or Jerry will find a new rave, and the pack mentality will surface again.

A forum is its members, and the leader of the pack is James, and it is his mentality as well. So if he wants less work he should just let it self regulate and let the people behave how they want and normal people will stay well clear of it. Plus the added advantage of it keeps them away from the rest of us.

[John]

I am not sure how it will change Richard and agree its hard to change overnight but its possible if their is a will to change; otherwise the mistakes from the past will come back to haunt
and I think its healthy to have very different forums
I always knew wigwam was not really for me but alot of people like it for good or bad.
I guess like all changes some will go with some will rebel and some will leave

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I think the comments about him owning "the commercial rights" to Scalford is very pertinent. It points to the direction he wants to take it. I think he will find that apart from the existing goodwill, the balance sheet will be empty. Anyone can do one any time they want to and all Wigwam members and owner can do is try to insult it and put it down as much as they can.

[MartinT]

Scalford is a long way for me, too, but I have committed to going next year anyway.

[montesquieu]

I think the comments about him owning "the commercial rights" to Scalford is very pertinent. It points to the direction he wants to take it. I think he will find that apart from the existing goodwill, the balance sheet will be empty. Anyone can do one any time they want to and all Wigwam members and owner can do is try to insult it and put it down as much as they can.

Richard, give it a rest. You are obviously taking great delight in this situation but no-one could ever call you an impartial observer.

[Marco]

I think that Richard's comment is a pertinent one, although if he's honest, I'm sure that, given the history between WW and him, he'll not have been too unhappy at recent events....

However, I have zero interest in hosting the contents of people's grudges, so I'm sure that Richard will respect my wishes for him to leave it there and concentrate on other things that are more constructive.

As an aside, I also found James' comment about having the commercial rights for the show interesting, but that would of course only be for the 'Pie Show', as it's known, in its current format.

There is nothing to stop anyone else doing the same thing at a different venue, under another name. We've had plans for a while for AoS to do its own show/bake-off event, and that will be definitely be happening in the near future, and the venue will be, as suggested, somewhere in the Midlands.

However, in the meantime, we will continue to support Wigwam in ensuring that the much loved 'Pie Show' takes place again next year! :cool:

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Richard, give it a rest. You are obviously taking great delight in this situation but no-one could ever call you an impartial observer.
Nor are you or nor is anyone in this conversation. I am being picked out by you because probably my comments hit the target too much.

Any way I will do as requested and just agree with Effem and Zanash posts. Which have been a lot more critical than mine.

[worthingpagan]

Nor are you or nor is anyone in this conversation. I am being picked out by you because probably my comments hit the target too much.

Any way I will do as requested and just agree with Effem and Zanash posts. Which have been a lot more critical than mine.


Fwiw i agree with you

[sq225917]

I'm sure James' reference to the 'commercial rights' pertains to the fact that Chestergroup gave them up, on paper, no more no less.

[Marco]

Indeed, Simon.

But it also shows that he's keen to keep the Pie show going, regardless if Wigwam continues to exist or not, which James is quite right to do. As I've said, I'm sure that both of the above will be the case, albeit with some significant (and in my opinion long overdue) changes taking place at the latter.

....and how some of the 'natives' react to those changes, will I believe determine the long-term future of Wigwam.

Marco.

P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts :)

[freefallrob]

Oooh ecky thump!

Tried to log on this morning, and no Wam.

Crikey, bit of a surprise but not totally unexpected I guess.

It was/is an interesting place full of diverse characters, just like real life, some get on and some don't.

I will miss it while it's not online.

I hope some sort 'Pie show' can go ahead, as my Dad and I always look forward to showing something affordable.

James and the mods if you are listening, thank you for the fun, let there be some more.

:)

[Effem]

Any way I will do as requested and just agree with Effem and Zanash posts. Which have been a lot more critical than mine.

I have finished with my own tirade Richard and after I calmed down overnight I have reduced it down to a mere "disappointment" level because as you will probably agree, undoing that which has been done isn't possible - no matter how hard any of us try.

My view now is QUE SERA, SERA, so if James has had an enforced reality check and is able to move on, then who am I to question that? By the way, if I met him today I would still be as friendly with him despite our differences.

[Marco]

My view now is QUE SERA, SERA

Without meaning to be pedantic, as an Italian, I consider it my duty to correct you. The saying that you're striving for, Frank, is in fact: 'Che sarà, sarà'.

And there endeth the lesson... ;)

Marco.

[Effem]

Without meaning to be pedantic, as an Italian, I consider it my duty to correct you. The saying that you're striving for, Frank, is in fact: 'Che sarà, sarà'.

And there endeth the lesson... ;)

Marco.

Obliged and indebted Sir :)

[chris@panteg]

Without meaning to be pedantic, as an Italian, I consider it my duty to correct you. The saying that you're striving for, Frank, is in fact: 'Che sarà, sarà'.

And there endeth the lesson... ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco

When i spoke to you on the phone , you didn't sound very Italian to me lol

Do they say "see you Jimmy" in Italy ? :)

[Marco]

Lol! That's 'cos I was born in Glasgow, but then you didn't hear me speak Italian ;)

However, Scottish accents are abound in parts of the town where my family come from in Tuscany, as they're full of folk who own chip-shops, restaurants and cafes in Scotland, but whose roots are most definitely 100% Italian. I come under that category.

It's rather like Indian or Pakistani people who were born in the UK - they simply take on the accent of their home town or area, when speaking English, but when speaking their mother tongue, sound very much like an Indian or Pakistani! :)

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Without meaning to be pedantic, as an Italian, I consider it my duty to correct you. The saying that you're striving for, Frank, is in fact: 'Che sarà, sarà'.

And there endeth the lesson... ;)

Marco.

I remember a discussion I had about this a long time ago. Some one said it was from the Latin, but from my Latin I did up to 13 tears old it doesn't quite add up. The story is it came from an Italian style film and was also a song in English by Doris Day. The people who wrote the English version of the song just did it phonetically, which in fact makes it nearer to Spanish, but it is not a Spanish saying, the nearest would be "lo que será, será". So once again it came about due to the ignorance of the English for any other language than English. Because if left in the Italian English people would say ch as in cheese.

[Joe]

P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts :)

I have no avatar, which is a fair reflection of my lack of personality.

[freefallrob]

Originally Posted by Marco
P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts

Oh blimey, I think I need to change mine then:eek:.

[jandl100]

.... How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts :)

Yup, everone here knows that I am completely quackers!

[chris@panteg]

Lol! That's 'cos I was born in Glasgow, but then you didn't hear me speak Italian ;)

However, Scottish accents are abound in parts of the town where my family come from in Tuscany, as they're full of folk who own chip-shops, restaurants and cafes in Scotland, but whose roots are most definitely 100% Italian. I come under that category.

It's rather like Indian or Pakistani people who were born in the UK - they simply take on the accent of their home town or area, when speaking English, but when speaking their mother tongue, sound very much like an Indian or Pakistani! :)

Marco.

Yes i know Marco , just trying to lighten the mood a little :) Tuscany looks beautiful , my only visit to Italy was a week in Rome , very memorable place :)

[montesquieu]

Originally Posted by Marco
P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts



Hmm only just figured out how to do that!

[freefallrob]

Originally Posted by Marco
P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts

Oh blimey, I think I need to change mine then:eek:.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bender_(Futurama)

Actually having read the above, it seems fine...:lol:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Lol! That's 'cos I was born in Glasgow, but then you didn't hear me speak Italian ;)

However, Scottish accents are abound in parts of the town where my family come from in Tuscany, as they're full of folk who own chip-shops, restaurants and cafes in Scotland, but whose roots are most definitely 100% Italian. I come under that category.

It's rather like Indian or Pakistani people who were born in the UK - they simply take on the accent of their home town or area, when speaking English, but when speaking their mother tongue, sound very much like an Indian or Pakistani! :)

Marco.

A large majority of them came from prisoners of war who didn't want to go back home, or met a Scottish lass while working on the farms in Scotland, where most of the Italian prisoners were sent.

Can you imagine a poor young Scottish farmers daughter being confronted by an Italian lad with full balls and rampant testerone :eek:

[Marco]

Hi Richard,


The story is it came from an Italian style film and was also a song in English by Doris Day.


There is of course no indisputably correct answer for this, as it's more folklore than fact, and so largely open for individual interpretation, but in my opinion your answer is probably as correct as it gets.

Indeed, if you were in Italy and said to someone: "Que Sera, Sera", or another version of that which was nothing like the commonly known phrase of 'Che sarà, sarà', they'd just look at you, as if you were daft! ;)


The people who wrote the English version of the song just did it phonetically, which in fact makes it nearer to Spanish, but it is not a Spanish saying, the nearest would be "lo que será, será". So once again it came about due to the ignorance of the English for any other language than English. Because if left in the Italian English people would say ch as in cheese.

Indeed. 'Che', in Italian, is simply pronounced as we do the letter 'k' :)

Marco.

[Marco]

A large majority of them came from prisoners of war who didn't want to go back home, or met a Scottish lass while working on the farms in Scotland, where most of the Italian prisoners were sent.


That is true. Also, many Italians fled Italy, during the depression of the 1930s, such as my granddad, to try and start a new life in Britain, where things were much better, and so started up their own businesses, many of which were cafes and chip-shops. That is where my roots come from.


Can you imagine a poor young Scottish farmers daughter being confronted by an Italian lad with full balls and rampant testerone :eek:

Hahaha... Indeed - and I bet most would've loved it!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Hi Marco

When i spoke to you on the phone , you didn't sound very Italian to me lol

Do they say "see you Jimmy" in Italy ? :)

:D

[Effem]

Oh I give up.

I will change the words in my post to "What will be, will be" in good old fashioned English. :ner:

Shut up Marco, before you start correcting again :lolsign:

[Effem]

So once again it came about due to the ignorance of the English for any other language than English.

Can we change that statement to "ignorance of the Americans"? The fillum in which Doris Day sang that song originated from t'other side of the pond :lol:

[worthingpagan]

Lol! That's 'cos I was born in Glasgow, but then you didn't hear me speak Italian ;)

However, Scottish accents are abound in parts of the town where my family come from in Tuscany, as they're full of folk who own chip-shops, restaurants and cafes in Scotland, but whose roots are most definitely 100% Italian. I come under that category.

It's rather like Indian or Pakistani people who were born in the UK - they simply take on the accent of their home town or area, when speaking English, but when speaking their mother tongue, sound very much like an Indian or Pakistani! :)

Marco.


My mother was Anglo Indian, unfortunately the only Indian words I know are Vindaloo & Birihany, and cos I was born in London, it sounds very cockneyfied :) Must admit i've never heard an Italian Scotsman living in North Wales's accent! Can you type it for me :lol:

[wee tam]

lost the wifes' eye ;) but flashy blue one makes me recognisable i hope

[freefallrob]

Tadah!

My new avatar, this is me trying to make sense of a What Hifi article and failing....

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Tadah!

My new avatar, this is me trying to make sense of a What Hifi article and failing....

I prefer the old one :scratch:

[freefallrob]

I prefer the old one :scratch:


Me too.....I've had bender a long time, it feels right somehow:).

[freefallrob]

He's back now...

[Alan]

I hope WW comes back because a lot of people really liked it, and as a community it was about as tight as hifi forums get. Its too good to lose imo.

I take Franks thoughts too and broadly agree with the problems there. Just because I didn't always fit in there doesn't mean I have sour grapes though (I am not saying Frank has either), and I learned when to get involved and when not to.

WW was just a bit of a 'punk rocker' forum, and whist I might not choose to hang around with such characters in real life I found the group mto ba a lot of fun in smaller doses. Live and let live.

[Elzar]

Just want to add my surprise at Wigwam going. Quite refreshing in a way as, Like Frank said in post #70-something, it's changed a lot since it started, and for me for me anyway, it had lost it's charm and appeal.

I browsed the classifieds and the bits and bobs threads, with virtually nil contribution anywhere as it was often derided, not discussed.

Hopefully some of those guys will switch off, literally, and get some fresh air and realise there is a whole world outside the spare bedroom lol.

Peace out y'all.

[jandl100]

.... WW was just a bit of a 'punk rocker' forum, and whist I might not choose to hang around with such characters in real life I found the group mto ba a lot of fun in smaller doses. Live and let live.

Actually, I've met some of the "worst offenders" on the Wigwam at bake-offs and at Scalford. They are really nice, reasonable folk when you meet them in person! :cool:

It's the old red mist descending thing again, when they sit themselves in front of a keyboard. :rolleyes:

[freefallrob]

Yep, I've met a fair few at the Scalford Shows and they are fine, nice even!

[Effem]

Actually, I've met some of the "worst offenders" on the Wigwam at bake-offs and at Scalford. They are really nice, reasonable folk when you meet them in person! :cool:

It's the old red mist descending thing again, when they sit themselves in front of a keyboard. :rolleyes:

I have met some of the keyboard cowboys face-to-face and they are delightful people to meet. James must also have a notion that I will tear him off a strip if I met him again, but nothing could be further from the truth. I can also to a degree understand that after a few years of dealing with inane repetitive squabbles and dummy spitting, it in all probability is manifesting itself into his character, so some time out may help him to press the rewind button to see if there is a way of avoiding that again in the future. I bet his missus will be thrilled him not taking those woes into her family unit.

When it was just harmless banter with some irreverences thrown in, I encouraged more people than I can care to remember from other forums and my customer base to cross over to the 'wam and join in the frivolities - you included Jerry as I recall ;)

I see no harm at all in leg pulling and banter amongst the lads, but when I see a long queue of people lining up to humiliate people like Icehockeyboy, that has gone way over the boundary of acceptable behaviour. The "Pink Sock" thread and images still haunt me even today.

[Marco]

Pink sock? What was that one all about then, Frank? A précis will do! ;)

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Pink sock? What was that one all about then, Frank? A précis will do! ;)

Marco.

Don't get excited, it in all probability was not about cross dressing. Honestly you do give yourself away :doh:

[jandl100]

I encouraged more people than I can care to remember from other forums and my customer base to cross over to the 'wam and join in the frivolities - you included Jerry as I recall ;)

Quite right, Frank. :)


The "Pink Sock" thread and images still haunt me even today.

I am happy to say that one passed me by, whatever it was. (No, I don't really want to know about it.)

Yes, the Wam could be an unpleasant and cruel place to be, especially in recent times. I avoided those aspects when I could. But there was also a hell of a lot of great posting, many really helpful and generous folks, and it was a wonderful place for meeting new friends.

It's interesting reading some of the 'culprits' posting on PFM at the moment - they really do not have a clue that it is they themselves that have been partly responsible for the forum imploding.:scratch::doh:
There's some sort of analogy for the Human Condition in there, somewhere! :eyebrows:

[Effem]

Pink sock? What was that one all about then, Frank? A précis will do! ;)

Marco.

I really don't want to go there Marco because I am getting the willies even typing this :spew:

Rest assured it was extremely offensive as a topic, it treated women disdainfully in the extreme and the culmination was a full screen picture of an anus that was completely turned inside out external to the body :spew:

I never want to see anything like that again :( :nono:

[Elzar]

It's interesting reading some of the 'culprits' posting on PFM at the moment - they really do not have a clue that it is they themselves that have been partly responsible for the forum imploding.

Yep, you've got to laugh :mental:

[Marco]

Don't get excited, it in all probability was not about cross dressing. Honestly you do give yourself away :doh:

:lolsign:

WAY off the mark, shweety, but hilarious, nonetheless!

Marco.

[alfie2902]

Quite right, Frank. :)



I am happy to say that one passed me by, whatever it was. (No, I don't really want to know about it.)

Yes, the Wam could be an unpleasant and cruel place to be, especially in recent times. I avoided those aspects when I could. But there was also a hell of a lot of great posting, many really helpful and generous folks, and it was a wonderful place for meeting new friends.

It's interesting reading some of the 'culprits' posting on PFM at the moment - they really do not have a clue that it is they themselves that have been partly responsible for the forum imploding.:scratch::doh:
There's some sort of analogy for the Human Condition in there, somewhere! :eyebrows:

To whom are you refering, Jerry? May-be I have a thick skin or just miss the agendas! So give me a clue please mate!

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Here it comes :(

[Spectral Morn]

Lets keep this thread civil so no flaming or picking fights please. I am not getting at any one in particular here. Just nipping a possible problem in the bud before it gets going.


Regards D S D L

[montesquieu]

I've avoided the PFM discussion precisely because agendas are still being forwarded there. Personally I'd rather not see this thread go down that route.

[jandl100]

Nope, sorry Alfie - I am just not going there. :) EDIT: Aha - I see that I agree with Neil & Tom.

And (no) thanks for sharing about the Pinkie thread, Frank. I really didn't want to know that. And James was wondering whether it was the occasional darn, heck & drat words that upset Google! :doh:

[alfie2902]

Nope, sorry Alfie - I am just not going there. :)

And (no) thanks for sharing about the Pinkie thread, Frank. I really didn't want to know that. And James was wondering whether it was the occasional darn, heck & drat words that upset Google! :doh:

Well it seems that a few people are being branded as the bad apples that brought down the 'Wam, but nobody seems to want to mention who they are!

A forum or any social gathering is made up from lots of different people all with different beliefs, morals & attitudes! No one is going to agree with everything someone else believes or adhere's to! So who is wrong?

One mans opinion is as valid as the next!

[Spectral Morn]

Well it seems that a few people are being branded as the bad apples that brought down the 'Wam, but nobody seems to want to mention who they are!

A forum or any social gathering is made up from lots of different people all with different beliefs, morals & attitudes! No one is going to agree with everything someone else believes or adhere's to! So who is wrong?

One mans opinion as valid as the next!

and in the context of this thread and in the interests of it staying on track and civil I think it fair to say that AOS does not want to see this thread degenerate into throwing stones.

Who did what and to whom will serve no purpose other than to drag this thread into the mud, so lets not go there.

So once again lets keep this friendly. Thank you.


Regards D S D L

[Effem]

Yep, I think we have just about done it death now, so that's me out of it

[jandl100]

Well it seems that a few people are being branded as the bad apples that brought down the 'Wam, but nobody seems to want to mention who they are!

A forum or any social gathering is made up from lots of different people all with different beliefs, morals & attitudes! No one is going to agree with everything someone else believes or adhere's to! So who is wrong?

One mans opinion is as valid as the next!

I'm not branding anyone, Alfie - that's what you want me to do! ;)

I'll be a happy camper if the Wam comes back again. Whatever its flaws, it was the leading light in the socialisation of hifi, imo. If it could be (re)made more civilised (see Frank's words about a certain thread as just one hopefully extreme example) then all the better.
That sort of treatment of women on a thread is not just 'one mans opinion' and therefore a valid thing to do - it is clearly unacceptable in a civilised society.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Yep, I think we have just about done it death now, so that's me out of it

We will meet up again for the eventual funeral, even if delayed. I wonder if there will be a wake with beer and sandwiches.

[alfie2902]

and in the context of this thread and in the interests of it staying on track and civil I think it fair to say that AOS does not want to see this thread degenerate into throwing stones.

So once again lets keep this friendly. Thank you.


Regards D S D L

Perhaps you are to close? But it seems to me stones are already being thrown! I just can't work out who they are being thrown at! I have been posting in the PFM thread so just wonder where the insinuations lie?

I will respect AoS & your wishes though, sorry chaps! :)

[alfie2902]

HiFi Wigwam classifieds are open atm. If anyone needs to finish any outstanding business now is the time to do it!

[doodoos]

Yes it's a shame that the wam is temporarily off-air but it's a bigger shame that some folk seem to be running around like headless chickens. They must have lives surely???
Aside from the mods a few posters were running up many thousands of posts - must sit at their keyboards all day! That's the real shame.

[Thing Fish]

My keyboard is my life...:violin:

[jandl100]

Email msg from a Wigwam mod ....

Wam is open from around 5pm this evening to 1am-ish to catch up, exchange some messages (with email addresses!) and suchlike.


It'll then shut again, probably for at least a week. assuming it reopens at all...

In fact, it's online now. :)

[stewartwen]

Thank you Jerry.
S

[jandl100]

Yup - the Wigwam is open now - but only the PM and Classifieds for sorting out unfinished trading and for swapping contact info with Wammer friends.

[wee tam]

Yes it's a shame that the wam is temporarily off-air but it's a bigger shame that some folk seem to be running around like headless chickens. They must have lives surely???
Aside from the mods a few posters were running up many thousands of posts - must sit at their keyboards all day! That's the real shame.

its even sadder when your disabled and can't get out :(
hmm statements without thought , now where have i heard similar

[doodoos]

its even sadder when your disabled and can't get out :(
hmm statements without thought , now where have i heard similar

I absolutely and humbly apologise. My mistake and I'm ashamed

[ursus262]

a full screen picture of an anus that was completely turned inside out external to the body

How absolutely ghastly! Have you got a pic you could send me? :lol:

[Marco]

It's good to see that the future of Wigwam appears to be going in a positive direction, however I'd like to make a few observations on some of the views Wammers are putting forward on pfm (which I know will be read, if not necessarily replied to, here).

It's being suggested that because it says that profanity is allowed on the Wigwam AUP, that newbies should simply accept what is written or go elsewhere, which I guess on the surface is fine, but here's the problem:

Probably around 80% of newbies to forums join directly from links to discussions on search engines, and so don't even SEE the AUP - and then when they join, it may take a while to become aware of it and read it, by which time they may already have amassed a number of posts and began to enjoy themselves, *until* someone starts with 'c*nt this' and 'f*ck that', which they then may find offensive, and that's when the problems start.....

If the warning about profanity was made blatantly obvious to new members DURING THE REGISTRATION PROCESS, as well as on the AUP, then people could decide from the beginning whether Wigwam was for them or not. And of course if that were the case, there would then be no excuses afterwards for complaints about bad language!!

However, my main point is this: outside of the off-topic areas, such as the Pub and Car Park, where people simply like to rant (and indulge in discussing certain topics of questionable taste), why is it necessary for people to use extremely offensive language, such as the 'c' word?

I've witnessed this sort of language spill onto the main hi-fi areas of WW, as well as existing in the off-topic sections. Surely people have sufficient command of the English language not to need to use profanity when discussing music or hi-fi, or feel it necessary to ridicule others who simply hold different opinions?

I've also met some of the 'worst offenders' of this at Scalford, and how they behave in person is not how they behave when behind a keyboard - so why the difference? Basically, those guys need to treat people with the same respect when on a forum as they would do when face to face.

Some folks say that 'it's only words on a screen', but I completely disagree - it is MUCH more than that, as offensive remarks made in the public domain on the Internet, which could be read by thousands of people, are just as disturbing as when directed at someone in 'real life'. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone, face to face!

Mutual respect and tolerance is the key.

Therefore I do hope that the worst protagonists of the behaviour I'm referring to, and who are nice enough guys in real life, embrace the sentiments expressed above, and start behaving like educated and civilised human beings when posting on WW, as opposed to little more than ignorant thugs, or the community that they value so dearly will simply slip down into the cesspit of the Web and never return.....

Marco.

[bigdur]

Look chaps, it helps if you understand the actual facts of what was happening in the background running upto this........

With the upcoming series of 'Dragons Den' being recorded James jumped at the chance to pitch in front of the multi millionaire investors, he nervously put his pitch to the entrepreneurs to try and get a good investment for the Hifiwigwam site and the 'Pieshow' rights inclusive.
The pitch was off to a shaky start but soon enough big Jim picked up his courage and made one of the most impressive pitches in the dens history.
All was well with the dragons presented with a laptop each to happily surf through the many varied and interesting threads and topics.
James' dream combination was a Theo / Deborah collaboration and all seemed well with him managing to hold onto 60% of the shareholding for the full £100,000 of investment but then disaster struck!
James Caan had been quiet, on reflection too quiet. He smugly pointed out that the frequent and inappropriate references to ladies bits outside of the 'Pub carpark' section. You could see the contempt in Meadens eyes, she scowled at James. ''I'm OUT'', Paphitis, was out too, none too happy with the horrific language had upset his frequent den partner Deborah.
What to do, in desperation Mr Wigwam looked towards Bannatyne. ''I already have an investment in this sector'' he smugly replied but James already knew this for Duncan was a major shareholder in 'The Crossover Network' a north of the border hifi and music based forum.
With his world in tatters and his dreams smashed James left the den.


















































*None of this ever happened.

[wee tam]

I absolutely and humbly apologise. My mistake and I'm ashamed

no need to apolagise as no offence was taken :)
but this is the problem with the written word on forums , yes i am disabled , but not house bound and yes good days and bad days ,
but at the drop of a hat what i had written was taken litteraly ;)
and the way the wam was , and yes i did cuss and spit with the best of them ,
if i had repied to your post , hoi c#nt i'm a cripple , you would have put your dander up and replied in a totally different manner :rolleyes:
thus was the wam and most cat fights started in this manner ,
its easy when you mull it over in your head or hear it straight from someone's mouth when they say
you silly b#st#ard why did you do that, you get the emotion behind it and hear the way it was intended , trouble on a quick read / reply forum is trigger twitchers fire fast :(

[Darren]

I'm setting up a new business project at present and am far too busy to muck about on hifi forums but I have to say.......

I've never seen such a potentially explosive thread as well moderated. A touch of encouragement here, a gentle admonishment there, the odd blunt reminder. Marco certainly knows his stuff. A moderation masterclass in my limited experience that others could certainly learn from.

Nice one Marco - some of us feel lucky to be here.:respect:

(Richard from NVA will call me an arse kisser now!):vomfest:

[Tim]

(Richard from NVA will call me an arse kisser now!):vomfest:
If that's all Richard calls you, then you got off light fella :lol:

[bogle111]

It's being suggested that because it says that profanity is allowed on the Wigwam AUP, that newbies should simply accept what is written or go elsewhere, which I guess on the surface is fine, but here's the problem:

If the warning about profanity was made blatantly obvious to new members DURING THE REGISTRATION PROCESS, as well as on the AUP, then people could decide from the beginning whether Wigwam was for them or not. And of course if that were the case, there would then be no excuses afterwards for complaints about bad language!!
Basically, those guys need to treat people with the same respect when on a forum as they would do when face to face.

Some folks say that 'it's only words on a screen', but I completely disagree - it is MUCH more than that, as offensive remarks made in the public domain on the Internet, which could be read by thousands of people, are just as disturbing as when directed at someone in 'real life'. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone face to face!

Mutual respect and tolerance is the key.

Therefore I do hope that the worst protagonists of the behaviour I'm referring to, and who are nice enough guys in real life, embrace the sentiments expressed above, and start behaving like educated and civilised human beings when posting on WW, as opposed to little more than ignorant thugs, or the community that they value so dearly will simply slip down into the cesspit of the Web and never return.....

Marco.

Which is why I joined here. I saw the WW as too many little boys in very short pants, some still in diapers in fact. If someone has to resort to that sort of behaviour, then it is not my playground. "Playgrounds" I left years ago and are not for me - I would rather read a "discussion".

I run my own company, and will swear probably twice in 10 minutes. I am not annoyed with anyone but myself. Everybody knows that. I do not swear at clients nor talk about or deride other clients. i do not swear on the web.

Having been in the industry for 25 years, I have not seen this sort of behaviour in the industry. If someone did get out of line a little, his colleagues would pull him up, he was a reflection on his company.

I am afraid there were alot of people that I read on WW that had egos (and opinions) larger than their real knowledge, their vocabulary and their wallets. "Nice enough guys in real life" to me still smacks of being two-faced. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone face to face!

I read a lot more than I post, some of them should have done the same. I would imagine that some of the rantings were alcohol induced? Maybe they only posted because they were bored or frustrated. If I cannot contribute anything worthwhile, then I have nothing to say.

What you have here for me, Marco, is good. I have no axe to grind, and I do not see WW going down as such a big loss. Hi fi forums in general are judged by the lowest denominator. The only good thing for me about WW, was that it kept a few small minds in one place - that place - and I hope they do not migrate.

[Marco]

Hi Darren,


I'm setting up a new business project at present and am far too busy to muck about on hifi forums but I have to say.......

I've never seen such a potentially explosive thread as well moderated. A touch of encouragement here, a gentle admonishment there, the odd blunt reminder. Marco certainly knows his stuff. A moderation masterclass in my limited experience that others could certainly learn from.

Nice one Marco - some of us feel lucky to be here.:respect:


Thanks, mate. Your kind sentiments are much appreciated, but also remember that on AoS the running of the forum is a team effort. I am very fortunate to have such a great bunch of guys working alongside me, focussed on achieving the same goals :)

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm not being sent my P45 quite yet! ;)

Marco.

P.S My thanks go to you too, Peter - nice one.

[Effem]

I'm setting up a new business project at present and am far too busy to muck about on hifi forums but I have to say.......

I've never seen such a potentially explosive thread as well moderated. A touch of encouragement here, a gentle admonishment there, the odd blunt reminder. Marco certainly knows his stuff. A moderation masterclass in my limited experience that others could certainly learn from.

Nice one Marco - some of us feel lucky to be here.:respect:

(Richard from NVA will call me an arse kisser now!):vomfest:

As I am Acting Assistant Deputy Under Manager Elect for Richard, I will say it in his absence:-

Arse kisser :lol:

[Marco]

Promise I won't wash that spot for weeks! :bum:

Marco.

[alfie2902]

The point that most here seem to be missing is that the 'Wam works, & works very well with the swearing! It is the largest & busiest UK forum, it obviously does something very right!

Keeping swearing to a mininum here & at other HiFi forums, PFM etc, works very well too! This gives choice to HiFi forum uses, which IMO is a good thing! If you don't like the profanity then don't read the 'Wam!

I know James wants a forum with little censorship & that's what he tries to provide with the 'Wam, numbers prove this works for a lot of HiFi forum readers. Not all though & that's why AoS & other forums are invaluable, you find an 'home' that suits you!

The swearing at the 'Wam wasn't what made James pull the plug IMO.
It seems he was between a rock & an hard place with google Ads. Using the Adverts adds some financial backing to the running costs of the 'Wam & it was google putting pressure onto James about 'inapropriate' posts & their customers not wanting to be associated with the 'inapropriate' posts. As a temporary measure a swear filter was switched on, which James wasn't really happy to do, but did. A thread then started as to why this filter was needed & some strong posts ensued. I suspect James felt a little pissed off that the members weren't happy with his decision when he was only trying to do the right thing for the good of the forum, & only a temporary measure anyway! A decision he wouldn't of taken lightly as it is he who wants a forum with little censorship! At this point the plug was pulled!

So as you see the profanity is not the problem, forced censorship is!

Some of you here ask why the profanity is needed & the simple answer is it's not! That said, alot seem to want to use it & feel it's their right too & a forum whose AUP says it's fine to do so seems the right place to me!

There's quite a few intelligent, verbose, witty people post there, There's a great collection of knowledge & some great people! Some of which have pretty responsible jobs & more than likely wouldn't dream of using profanity while professonaly doing their jobs, but use the Wam sometimes to stress relieve with a good rant using profanities! Some just think it's their right & that enough of their freedom of speech has been eroded already! What I'm badly trying to say is some might find it uncouth but most are far from idiots IMO. Quite frankly the idea that people use profanity because they are ill educated or have a lack of vocabulary is a load of boll**ks! What really makes me smile is alot of us will pay good money to watch a comedian swear his/her head off & then tell our mates how brilliant he/she was!! Funny world init :)

[Audioman]

Looks like HFWW will be back soon for better or for worse.





#491 Today, 10:58 PM
HiFiWigWam
Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 36

Wow a very long day but hugely positive in many ways.

Number 1, Thank you PFM and especially Tony for putting up with us all.

Number 2. The WigWam WILL re-open this week.

Thanks mainly to all of the messages of support i got. And the fact that as soon as it was gone I started missing it terribly.

A lot of the major issues I faced are being dealt with by the wonderful professionals we have on board, a much bigger mod team, a new AUP that will be enforced more heavily in the general public areas. and some locked down old school Wamming areas for those with a thick enough skin.

All of the changes are necessary to keep a balance between the huge forum we now have and the also the matey atmosphere that is great fun to get into and be part of. They are also necessary for my sanity and peace of mind. The constant threat of litigation is the main fear and with the nature of that forum it's all to real. The google thing was a trigger, the real underlying problem was one of legal threats.


The 2012 show is still very much alive and well.

The forum will be back online once we have made a few changes behind the scenes. Please bear with us for a little longer.

Thanks once again to Tony.




Posted on PFM.

[worthingpagan]

clearly there are some people who did not like the bad language, sexism, racism etc that could sometimes be found on the ww. I deliberately avoided posting on the ww because of the minority of "keyboard heroes" who to me seemed to be there spoiling for a fight, the hifi seemed just coincidental.

I don't know why there needs to be profanity when discussing electronics? I would never dream of walking into my local hifi dealer and start f**ing and blinding.

There are places more appt to that kind of behaviour. I'm not a saint or brown nose, I just believe in a bit of decorum. If i wanted to enter an arena of abusive banter or name calling i'd join a football forum, or better still, go to a football match. But even in those places people have had enough of the endless tirades of abuse. Times are changing and whether people like it or not, childish, abusive behaviour is not welcomed on the www, and neither should it be. We are adults after all :cool:

[montesquieu]

The point that most here seem to be missing is that the 'Wam works, & works very well with the swearing! It is the largest & busiest UK forum, it obviously does something very right!

Keeping swearing to a mininum here & at other HiFi forums, PFM etc, works very well too! This gives choice to HiFi forum uses, which IMO is a good thing! If you don't like the profanity then don't read the 'Wam!

I know James wants a forum with little censorship & that's what he tries to provide with the 'Wam, numbers prove this works for a lot of HiFi forum readers. Not all though & that's why AoS & other forums are invaluable, you find an 'home' that suits you!

The swearing at the 'Wam wasn't what made James pull the plug IMO.
It seems he was between a rock & an hard place with google Ads. Using the Adverts adds some financial backing to the running costs of the 'Wam & it was google putting pressure onto James about 'inapropriate' posts & their customers not wanting to be associated with the 'inapropriate' posts. As a temporary measure a swear filter was switched on, which James wasn't really happy to do, but did. A thread then started as to why this filter was needed & some strong posts ensued. I suspect James felt a little pissed off that the members weren't happy with his decision when he was only trying to do the right thing for the good of the forum, & only a temporary measure anyway! A decision he wouldn't of taken lightly as it is he who wants a forum with little censorship! At this point the plug was pulled!

So as you see the profanity is not the problem, forced censorship is!

Some of you here ask why the profanity is needed & the simple answer is it's not! That said, alot seem to want to use it & feel it's their right too & a forum whose AUP says it's fine to do so seems the right place to me!

There's quite a few intelligent, verbose, witty people post there, There's a great collection of knowledge & some great people! Some of which have pretty responsible jobs & more than likely wouldn't dream of using profanity while professonaly doing their jobs, but use the Wam sometimes to stress relieve with a good rant using profanities! Some just think it's their right & that enough of their freedom of speech has been eroded already! What I'm badly trying to say is some might find it uncouth but most are far from idiots IMO. Quite frankly the idea that people use profanity because they are ill educated or have a lack of vocabulary is a load of boll**ks! What really makes me smile is alot of us will pay good money to watch a comedian swear his/her head off & then tell our mates how brilliant he/she was!! Funny world init :)


Reminds me of a reader's letter made by an extremely well educated and highly literate friend of mine which was published in Viz back in the early 90s (they phoned her office and verified it was true before going to print). It went something like:

'People say swearing is a sign of a poor vocabulary. Well I swear, and I write dictionaries for a living. So I guess that ****s that theory then!'

I agree in general with Alfie's summary above. The Wam was successful because of its character, not in spite of, despite the Marmite-like reactions of some didn't get along with it.

Not all who stayed were happy with the hard time some newbies got especially if threads turned to cables (though the carpet gripper thread was epic comedy in my book). But if what, 16-17 years of the web have taught us anything, it's surely to lurk for a bit and get the lie of the land before you jump in and start posting. Some people just set themselves up for a fall.

I've been somewhat annoyed by the 'the wam/james/those awful cliques were terrible anyway' posts that some in this thread have made, though I appreciate they have their personal reasons for making them. It doesn't reflect the experience of most users of the site though and they themselves should acknowledge this.

Not all of us who frequented the Wam may have liked every aspect of it but on balance it did many things spectacularly well and the challenge is to keep its character while introducing what is surely some necessary changes.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well I said I wouldn't comment, but really. I have seen worse drama queen performances at Jack Straws Castle on Hampstead Heath. What a waste of a bloody day.

[chelsea]

Well I said I wouldn't comment, but really. I have seen worse drama queen performances at Jack Straws Castle on Hampstead Heath. What a waste of a bloody day.

Why get involved then?

[wee tam]

Well I said I wouldn't comment, but really. I have seen worse drama queen performances at Jack Straws Castle on Hampstead Heath. What a waste of a bloody day.

well at least you weren't forced to participate , free choice n all

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Why get involved then?

Duh! this is a forum last time I looked, a forum is for joining in and commenting and having opinions. Or is it only selected individuals who are *allowed* to participate.

We had a minor version of the drama queen performance last year, now we have had an even bigger flounce. The outcome is the same "O we love you please come back". It becomes addictive the need for mass love, what will we get next time attempted suicide, sorry it is bloody pathetic, and on that note having made my point I really will leave it well alone.

[chelsea]

Of course it is but if it a thread winds you up why bother.
The way i see it we are all in it together to get the best out of our hifi and hopefully have some fun along the way regardless of forums we are signed up to.

[alfie2902]

Duh! this is a forum last time I looked, a forum is for joining in and commenting and having opinions. Or is it only selected individuals who are *allowed* to participate.

We had a minor version of the drama queen performance last year, now we have had an even bigger flounce. The outcome is the same "O we love you please come back". It becomes addictive the need for mass love, what will we get next time attempted suicide, sorry it is bloody pathetic, and on that note having made my point I really will leave it well alone.

Well you would know about being a drama queen wouldn't you Richard!!

You're the first to start throwing your toys out of your pram & start squealing about ad hom & sueing people :lol: you always seem to have an agenda! :doh:

[worthingpagan]

Duh! this is a forum last time I looked, a forum is for joining in and commenting and having opinions. Or is it only selected individuals who are *allowed* to participate.

We had a minor version of the drama queen performance last year, now we have had an even bigger flounce. The outcome is the same "O we love you please come back". It becomes addictive the need for mass love, what will we get next time attempted suicide, sorry it is bloody pathetic, and on that note having made my point I really will leave it well alone.


LOL, you're not related to Alf Garnett by any chance?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Perhaps a bit less of the above from both sides of this discussion (about those present and absent) might prevent this thread from descending into the type of thing that so many here have already expressed distaste about. Come on guys, I think we're better than this.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

LOL, you're not related to Alf Garnett by any chance?
No, but I definitely qualify for the Grumpy Old Git TV prog :eyebrows:

[worthingpagan]

No, but I definitely qualify for the Grumpy Old Git TV prog :eyebrows:

whatever you do, don't change, you crack me up :lol:

night all ;)

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Perhaps a bit less of the above from both sides of this discussion (about those present and absent) might prevent this thread from descending into the type of thing that so many here have already expressed distaste about. Come on guys, I think we're better than this.

Hmmm! guess your right, but really was it all necessary, obviously not. What a waste of a day, which I won't get back. Here and even more so on PFM. If I was TonyL (which thank god I am not) I would be thoroughly irritated by all the bandwidth used up for no good reason.

[bogle111]

The point that most here seem to be missing is that the 'Wam works, & works very well with the swearing! It is the largest & busiest UK forum, it obviously does something very right! DONNY OSMOND SOLD ALOT OF RECORDS, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE NUMBERS MAKE HIM A GOOD SINGER

Keeping swearing to a mininum here & at other HiFi forums, PFM etc, works very well too! This gives choice to HiFi forum uses, which IMO is a good thing! If you don't like the profanity then don't read the 'Wam! IT ISN'T JUST THE PROFANITY, IT IS THE "ATTITUDE" OF SOME OF THE MEMBERS THERE - SOME EXTREMELY PUERILE COMMENTS

I know James wants a forum with little censorship CHEAPER TO ADMINISTER I'LL BET & that's what he tries to provide with the 'Wam, numbers prove this works for a lot of HiFi forum readers. Not all though & that's why AoS & other forums are invaluable, you find an 'home' that suits you!

The swearing at the 'Wam wasn't what made James pull the plug IMO.
It seems he was between a rock & an hard place with google Ads. Using the Adverts adds some financial backing to the running costs of the 'Wam & it was google putting pressure onto James about 'inapropriate' posts & their customers not wanting to be associated with the 'inapropriate' posts. As a temporary measure a swear filter was switched on, which James wasn't really happy to do, but did. A thread then started as to why this filter was needed & some strong posts ensued. I suspect James felt a little pissed off that the members weren't happy with his decision when he was only trying to do the right thing for the good of the forum, & only a temporary measure anyway! A decision he wouldn't of taken lightly as it is he who wants a forum with little censorship! At this point the plug was pulled!

So as you see the profanity is not the problem, IT WAS FOR ADVERTISERS - INCOME forced censorship is! FOR SOME MEMBERS

Some of you here ask why the profanity is needed & the simple answer is it's not! That said, alot seem to want to use it & feel it's their right too & a forum whose AUP says it's fine to do so seems the right place to me! THAT IS PROBABLY WHY SOME OF THE MEMBERS ARE THERE - POSSIBLY THE PROFANITY WAS THE HIGHLIGHT OF THEIR DAY

There's quite a few intelligent, verbose, witty people post there, There's a great collection of knowledge & some great people! AGREED Some of which have pretty responsible jobs & more than likely wouldn't dream of using profanity while professonaly doing their jobs, AGREED but use the Wam sometimes to stress relieve with a good rant using profanities! RELIEVING STRESS BY MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A TWIT DOESN'T WORK FOR ME, OR INCREASE MY RESPECT FOR THEIR INPUT Some just think it's their right & that enough of their freedom of speech has been eroded already! What I'm badly trying to say is some might find it uncouth but most are far from idiots IMO. Quite frankly the idea that people use profanity because they are ill educated or have a lack of vocabulary is a load of boll**ks! WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THEIR EGOs (OPINIONS) WERE LARGER THAN ANYTHING ELSE What really makes me smile is alot of us will pay good money to watch a comedian swear his/her head off & then tell our mates how brilliant he/she was!! PERSONALLY, ANY OLD COMEDIAN CAN SWEAR - ONLY THE CLEVER ONES ARE FUNNY AND USE PROFANITY OCCASSIONALLY TO STRESS A POINT Funny world init :)

I do admire your defence of the WW. I was not belittling the bulk of members on WW, but it does seem to be the same people relieving stress all the time. IMHO though, it needs to be well thought out for the direction to be taken to make it a good site again, and I think this is what it needed to move on. In marketing terms, being risky and controversial can be good, but it is short lived and dangerous without very good planning - you have to be in control for that to work, and your timing must be impeccable.

Pulling the plug was probably the best bit of real PR that it has done - may even impress some of the Dragons? A lot can go on after the programme is finished, and some of them like to out do each other on the quiet, now one of them has shown his involvement in TXN. The numbers will rocket when it goes back online, everyone will attend to see what has happened - good numbers for advertising - good marketing. That alone though will not make it a good site.

[alfie2902]

Hi Peter,

I defend the 'Wam because I like it & enjoy my time there!

I'm a member of several forums but only post on some of them & some more than others. I've also visited others & decided not to become a member because they didn't seem to offer the experiance I was looking for. They didn't suit my needs, but I don't feel the need to slag them off, they must work for their members. So I say live & let live & choose not to visit them!

Some here seem to of reveled in the 'Wams demise & now it's going to live again with extra mods, a new AUP & private members area, one seems to think he's wasted a day of his life! That must be one big axe he's grinding! If a forums not for you leave it alone & enjoy the ones that are for you!

The 'Wam has a great social side, there's loads of bake offs & alot of people have gotten to know each other very well, Scalford has also put alot of names to faces & friendships have been made! Locally I visit several Wammers often for hifi related evenings/days & I know some of them well enough to call c**ts to their faces, but it's only a bit of banter! This has though reflected into the forum & may add to it looking full of uncouth idiots, but that's not really the case! Yesterday several Wammers PM'd me for email & Phone details just in case the Wam was dead & wanted to stay in touch & I think alot of us thought it was the end! Sad day because in some ways it has become more than a forum, a place where genuine friends meet!

In response to some of your comments, I agree mumbers through the door do not always reflect content, but something makes people comeback again & again! If it's not profanity it may be content!

There probably is some puerile coments, some of those maybe part of the 'off the wall humour' some are simply nasty, but that's forum life on the wam. You make your choice...

Alot of the membership have offered to pay subs so google ads were not needed. So the cost of little censorship could be covered by the members, so I guess little censorship comes at a greater cost!

I'm not sure how you equate the advertisers losing income because of the Wam? The only people to see the adverts would be wammers & if they chose to click the advert worked!

Possibly the profanity was the highlight of their day, I don't know, I can't comment for others! I do though enjoy a bit of banter with online friends after spending the day minding my P&Q's in front of customers at work, but I can assure you it's not the highlight of my day, fun all the same though.

You seem to be comparing a forum with a business modal & I think they are two very different things!

Just enjoy the forums your happy at! Lifes to short to be concerned about something you don't like & have no need to partake in! Some people end up twisted & bitter! Live & let live! It's only a bloody stereo at the end of the day!

[worthingpagan]

Lifes to short to be concerned about something you don't like & have no need to partake in! Some people end up twisted & bitter! Live & let live! It's only a bloody stereo at the end of the day!



I agree entirely with you, so why do you feel the need to keep on beating the drum? :scratch:

[alfie2902]

I agree entirely with you, so why do you feel the need to keep on beating the drum? :scratch:

Hi Mark,

Peter made quite a lengthy answer to my one of my posts & I believe it only courteous to respond! Exchanges of views I think are what forums are about, don't you? :scratch:

[hifinutt]

It's good to see that the future of Wigwam appears to be going in a positive direction, however I'd like to make a few observations on some of the views Wammers are putting forward on pfm (which I know will be read, if not necessarily replied to, here).

It's being suggested that because it says that profanity is allowed on the Wigwam AUP, that newbies should simply accept what is written or go elsewhere, which I guess on the surface is fine, but here's the problem:

Probably around 80% of newbies to forums join directly from links to discussions on search engines, and so don't even SEE the AUP - and then when they join, it may take a while to become aware of it and read it, by which time they may already have amassed a number of posts and began to enjoy themselves, *until* someone starts with 'c*nt this' and 'f*ck that', which they then may find offensive, and that's when the problems start.....

If the warning about profanity was made blatantly obvious to new members DURING THE REGISTRATION PROCESS, as well as on the AUP, then people could decide from the beginning whether Wigwam was for them or not. And of course if that were the case, there would then be no excuses afterwards for complaints about bad language!!

However, my main point is this: outside of the off-topic areas, such as the Pub and Car Park, where people simply like to rant (and indulge in discussing certain topics of questionable taste), why is it necessary for people to use extremely offensive language, such as the 'c' word?

I've witnessed this sort of language spill onto the main hi-fi areas of WW, as well as existing in the off-topic sections. Surely people have sufficient command of the English language not to need to use profanity when discussing music or hi-fi, or feel it necessary to ridicule others who simply hold different opinions?

I've also met some of the 'worst offenders' of this at Scalford, and how they behave in person is not how they behave when behind a keyboard - so why the difference? Basically, those guys need to treat people with the same respect when on a forum as they would do when face to face.

Some folks say that 'it's only words on a screen', but I completely disagree - it is MUCH more than that, as offensive remarks made in the public domain on the Internet, which could be read by thousands of people, are just as disturbing as when directed at someone in 'real life'. Therefore, don't write anything on a forum that you wouldn't also say to someone, face to face!

Mutual respect and tolerance is the key.

Therefore I do hope that the worst protagonists of the behaviour I'm referring to, and who are nice enough guys in real life, embrace the sentiments expressed above, and start behaving like educated and civilised human beings when posting on WW, as opposed to little more than ignorant thugs, or the community that they value so dearly will simply slip down into the cesspit of the Web and never return.....

Marco.


superbly put marco . the problem is that if i was to use one single profanity in my job[perhaps with a client in a stressful sitauation] i would be disciplined and its not easy to avoid when the language becomes commonplace on the forum

[dantheman91]

Its back up and running.

[jandl100]

Its back up and running.

Nah - at the moment, at any rate, it's just the classifieds and the PM section still.

[jandl100]

Not all of us who frequented the Wam may have liked every aspect of it but on balance it did many things spectacularly well and the challenge is to keep its character while introducing what is surely some necessary changes.

+1

Well said, Tom, spot on.

We'll have to see how they pan out in practise, but the announced changes seem to be very much in the right direction to me. :)

[Beechwoods]

From what Alfie says about the likely changes in Wigwam v2.0 it sounds like James is definitely doing the right things to achieve a best of both - the anything goes spirit of a members club, and public areas where things are little easier going. Good luck to James and the other mods over on Wigwam in making it work, I know from experience these things don't just happen, and they'll be spilling some sweat to bring it all together :)

[Marco]

Absolutely, Nick, and I of course share your sentiments.

Let's just remember, too, chaps that this thread is about Wigwam, and NOT James himself, his personality – or even Richard! ;)

However, within that context, this is an open forum, and so everyone is entitled to voice their opinion on the thread subject: Wigwam, and the current happenings there.

In that respect, Alfie, I think you’re protesting rather too much and turning your legitimate opinion on a community you no doubt feel a big part of, into no more than a rant, and unfortunately in the process devaluing some valid points, so try and keep your emotions in check, dude!

Foul language aside, what do you think of certain, let’s call them, 'vociferous' characters on Wigwam, showing more TOLERANCE AND RESPECT towards people in future, particularly new members, who may not share the same opinions as the assembled 'cognoscenti', and reducing the propensity of the former to ridicule and humiliate people they disagree with?

Might that change in those guilty of such behaviour also aid good relations and contribute towards the future success of Wigwam??

I think there's a danger here of the attitude prevailing that 'Wigwam is what it is, so deal with it', and brushing things under the carpet (which I feel if not properly addressed will return to haunt WW in future), rather than using this opportunity constructively to address and attempt to fix some of the problems which caused the unfortunate recent events in the first place!!

There - that was my turn to use a couple of exclamation marks.... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[Effem]

Absolutely, Nick, and I of course share your sentiments.

Let's just remember, too, chaps that this thread is about Wigwam, and NOT James himself, his personality – or even Richard! ;)

However, within that context, this is an open forum, and so everyone is entitled to voice their opinion on the thread subject: Wigwam, and the current happenings there.

In that respect, Alfie, I think you’re protesting rather too much and turning your legitimate opinion on a community you no doubt feel a big part of, into no more than a rant, and unfortunately in the process devaluing some valid points, so try and keep your emotions in check, dude!

Foul language aside, what do you think of certain, let’s call them, 'vociferous' characters on Wigwam, showing more TOLERANCE AND RESPECT towards people in future, particularly new members, who may not share the same opinions as the assembled 'cognoscenti', and reducing the propensity of the former to ridicule and humiliate people they disagree with?

Might that change in those guilty of such behaviour also help aid good relations and contribute towards the future success of Wigwam??

I think there's a danger here of the attitude prevailing that 'Wigwam is what it is, so deal with it', and brushing things under the carpet, rather than using this opportunity constructively to address and attempt to fix some of the problems which caused the unfortunate recent events in the first place!!

There - that was my turn to use a couple of exclamation marks.... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

In my view Marco the language "problem" is the real distraction from the core issues affecting the WW (of old). I seem to recall the AUP mentioning that swearing is fine is used in a humourous context and a sprinkling of "F" words during a rant can be very funny and entertaining - when used in moderation of course, so it isn't the use of swear words per se that is the issue. It is when we move on to the "C" word which is universally known that women find offensive and when that is directed at another person in a thread, even though they may know each other socially, is doubly more offensive on an open public forum.

No, the core issue as far as I can tell is those vociferous vocal few that DOMINATE the entire forum with their dogmatic points of view and accept no other, belittling those that do in a demeaning and humiliating manner, which then progresses on to personal insults. If the mods have not noticed this going on, then in all honesty they need a fresh moderation team with teeth to stamp it out. There are many good folks on WW too, but I say that they are too scared or too apathetic to put their heads above the parapet and if they have notified the mods of these practices nothing ever gets done about it.

It can say whatever figure it likes at the bottom of the page in TOTAL numbers of members on any forum, but it is the total number of active users that keep a forum ticking and when that contains mostly people that dominate the entire forum and by their actions are excluding other members from freely participating, it's on the cards it will follow in the tracks of other notable forums now demised.

[hornucopia]

Well, with 23 pages on the subject here so far, it seems some folk are bothered by the 'demise'.
The 'language' bit (and aggro attitudes) are a bit akin to 'road rage'; a modern phenomenon that seems to indicate a deterioration in respect for ones fellows.
Must be the food additives, Microwaves, whatever?
We need Faraday cages maybe, to cool our heads!
Now; where's that reference to Helmholtz (?) resonances.....?

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well, with 23 pages on the subject here so far, it seems some folk are bothered by the 'demise'.

Road crashes always attract rubberneckers who want to watch and tut-tut amongst themselves. Or in this case a suicide jumper on the overpass. Will he do it? - wont he do it? - oh the excitement! :rolleyes:

[Yoga]

People, quite rightly, have different opinions regarding WW. These opinions are based on personal experience, and each of us have had vastly different experiences in life which shape our beliefs and opinions.

Rather than re-iterating one's own opinions, perhaps it's time for those people who enjoy the ways of the wam do so, and for those who don't, to enjoy their time elsewhere.

This is, after all, the crux of both free will and acceptance, no one is right/wrong, it's all subjective :¬)

[Marco]

Hi Frank,

You've made some good points.


In my view Marco the language "problem" is the real distraction from the core issues affecting the WW (of old). I seem to recall the AUP mentioning that swearing is fine is used in a humourous context and a sprinkling of "F" words during a rant can be very funny and entertaining...


Yes, but it's only "funny and entertaining" to those who appreciate the humour! How can you accurately predict what a complete stranger finds funny or not?

It's a bit like putting an audience of 'George & Mildred' fans in front of Roy Chubby Brown, and saying "laugh you bastards or f*ck off!!" :eyebrows:

Now don't get me wrong, I'm far from being a shrinking violet, and can dish it out with the best of them (as those who know me well will know!), but if an audio forum is to genuinely cater for the widest section of the audio community as possible, and prosper in the long term, then there must exist a certain standard of decency and behaviour amongst its members, otherwise it simply becomes a clique for the few who enjoy using and reading invective.

So the question that begs to be asked is, does James see Wigwam as a genuinely tolerant and all-embracing community of different personalities and mindsets, or simply a gang hut for a selected few who enjoy participating in endless slag-fests and having an intolerance towards viewpoints which don't conform to the beliefs of the owner, his fellow moderators, or the forum 'clique'?

If it's the latter, then that's cool, WW simply becomes a gathering place for a group of lads who enjoy what it's about (like TXN, for example, only bigger), rather than a place where everyone who behaves within the legal requirements of the site and a certain code of decency, is welcome. But James has to decide, because realistically he can't have both....


It is when we move on to the "C" word which is universally known that women find offensive and when that is directed at another person in a thread, even though they may know each other socially, is doubly more offensive on an open public forum.


Yep, in my view, there is never an acceptable reason to use the 'C' word on a public forum - end of.


No, the core issue as far as I can tell is those vociferous vocal few that DOMINATE the entire forum with their dogmatic points of view and accept no other, belittling those that do in a demeaning and humiliating manner, which then progresses on to personal insults. If the mods have not noticed this going on, then in all honesty they need a fresh moderation team with teeth to stamp it out.


I do sympathise with that view, but let's try and concentrate on the positives, and offer our opinions on how to fix the problems, rather than on the problems themselves. I know that James will be reading this thread and so perhaps will take on board any suggestions which he feels have merit.


There are many good folks on WW too, but I say that they are too scared or too apathetic to put their heads above the parapet and if they have notified the mods of these practices nothing ever gets done about it.


I agree, and for me, that's the big problem.

If you continually ignore (or don't deal effectively) with the legitimate concerns of a significant section of your membership, then eventually all you're left with are the collective sensibilities of a select few, and thus a clique is created.

And when that becomes the perception the outside world has of your forum or community, the genuine growth and success of the forum is stifled to the point of strangulation......

I also think that it's damaging for a forum when people use it almost exclusively as their own personal therapy centre, to rid themselves of, or escape from, their demons or frustrations in life, which I've seen take place time and time again (and not just on Wigwam), and when this is then allowed to occur regularly by those who run the site.

Not everyone wants to be subjected to that. Most people just want to read about hi-fi and music, discussed in a friendly, and mutually respectful, environment.

I think that James should look at that situation and decide whether it should be allowed to the same degree in future.


It can say whatever figure it likes at the bottom of the page in TOTAL numbers of members on any forum, but it is the total number of active users that keep a forum ticking and when that contains mostly people that dominate the entire forum and by their actions are excluding other members from freely participating, it's on the cards it will follow in the tracks of other notable forums now demised.

I totally agree with you on both points. The latter is something we try very hard to ensure doesn't happen here.

Marco.

[Marco]

Road crashes always attract rubberneckers who want to watch and tut-tut amongst themselves. Or in this case a suicide jumper on the overpass. Will he do it? - wont he do it? - oh the excitement! :rolleyes:

Richard, mate, that's ad hominem, and something you yourself are very 'hot' on, so please practice what you preach.

As I've already said, the subject of the thread is Wigwam, NOT the personality of James Palmer, so let's have no more of those comments, or they will simply be deleted -ta!

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Ross,


People, quite rightly, have different opinions regarding WW. These opinions are based on personal experience, and each of us have had vastly different experiences in life which shape our beliefs and opinions.

Rather than re-iterating one's own opinions, perhaps it's time for those people who enjoy the ways of the wam do so, and for those who don't, to enjoy their time elsewhere.

This is, after all, the crux of both free will and acceptance, no one is right/wrong, it's all subjective :¬)

I totally agree, but this is after all a discussion site, and therefore it's entirely normal for people to discuss and offer opinions on what is a major discussion topic at this time within the UK audio forum community :)

Don't worry - the mods and I will ensure that things stay constructive! ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yes, but only "funny and entertaining" to those who appreciate the humour! How can you accurately predict what a complete stranger finds funny or not?

I think that does miss the point, Marco.

If a particular forum style is not for you, fair enough, then go elsewhere.
There are other forums - AOS is a good example of a contrasting atmosphere to the Wigwam.

I'm a Wammer of long-standing & I very much enjoyed the atmosphere of old there - helpful views and advice, a generous sharing spirit, vociferous debate, a bit of a barney now & then, but overall a great atmosphere and a fun place to be, only needing a moderately thick skin. It was still too much for some folks, and that's fair enough. They came to AOS and elsewhere.

But of late the Wigwam has degenerated into a far less tolerant and loutish place, and also an unacceptably bigoted, racist and sexist environment, in my view. I rarely visited the non-hifi parts of the Wigwam for that latter reason. Too often, it really wasn't pleasant or even civilised.

In my view, the Wigwam was degenerating rapidly into a noxious environment. It wasn't healthy and it needs to change. I hope the new ruleset and moderation rules will address these issues.

Sure, I too can go elsewhere! ... I can spend even more time here, and I think I will. :) ... but the Wigwam has so much that is different to offer - I hope it can see the errors of its ways and get back to the excellent & welcoming forum that it used to be.

[Marco]

Hi Jerry,


I think that does miss the point, Marco.


I don't think it does, mate. The two paragraphs following the selective bit you've quoted above, ably explain the point I was making! ;)

You either have a forum which caters for the needs of a select few, or open it up to encompass the needs of the widest section of the audio community as possible, which is what we strive to do on AoS.

Apart from that, I totally agree with what you've written, and it's something James and his team on Wigwam must now the take the opportunity to address properly, otherwise the situation we have now will haunt him again in future.

Marco.

[jandl100]

I don't think it does, mate. The two paragraphs following the selective bit you've quoted above, ably explain the point I was making! ;)


Wot? :scratch:

Oh yes, so they do! :lol:

[Marco]

Lol - daftee! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Yoga]

Hi Ross,

I totally agree, but this is after all a discussion site, and therefore it's entirely normal for people to discuss and offer opinions on what is a major discussion topic at this time within the UK audio forum community :)

Don't worry - the mods and I will ensure that things stay constructive! ;)

Marco.

Indeed Marco, discussion is very healthy (and the entire point of forums!). The trap lies when discussions become repetitive, which they appear to be becoming here :¬)

Some people like the wam, some don't. Done :cool:

[Joe]

Yep, in my view, there is never an acceptable reason to use the 'C' word on a public forum - end of.

Quite right. Cable discussions are always going to end in tears.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Richard, mate, that's ad hominem, and something you yourself are very 'hot' on, so please practice what you preach.

As I've already said, the subject of the thread is Wigwam, NOT the personality of James Palmer, so let's have no more of those comments, or they will simply be deleted -ta!

Marco.
For heaven sake Marco, it is not about him, it is a joke analogy about the situation. Do you really think I think he is personally standing on an overpass threatening to jump :scratch:

[StanleyB]

Sure, I too can go elsewhere! ... I can spend even more time here, and I think I will. :) ... but the Wigwam has so much that is different to offer.
There is nothing stopping you from putting forward to Marco and the membership any new ideas on how to keep AoS fresh and at the cutting edge of forum enjoyment ;).
Quite a few topic areas on AoS were born out of just such suggestions in the first place, which is why AoS has quickly become a reference source for a lot of audio related info.

[Marco]

For heaven sake Marco, it is not about him, it is a joke analogy about the situation. Do you really think I think he is personally standing on an overpass threatening to jump...


Lol! Of course not, Richard. That's not what I meant.

What I meant is that you're making JAMES the subject of the discussion, rather than WIGWAM. And that is not acceptable.

Now let's leave that there, please! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

There is nothing stopping you from putting forward to Marco and the membership any new ideas on how to keep AoS fresh and at the cutting edge of forum enjoyment ;).


Indeed, Stan. It is also why we have a section of the forum for that very purpose, called 'Critics Corner'.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why we have fewer problems here on AoS, than elsewhere, simply because our members feel that they have a voice which will be listened to by those who run the site, and a valid input into how the forum is shaped now and in the future :cool:

Marco.

[jandl100]

There is nothing stopping you from putting forward to Marco and the membership any new ideas on how to keep AoS fresh and at the cutting edge of forum enjoyment ;).
Quite a few topic areas on AoS were born out of just such suggestions in the first place, which is why AoS has quickly become a reference source for a lot of audio related info.

Yup, and there is a suggestion of mine currently under discussion in the Critics Corner section. :)

[Marco]

Indeed Marco, discussion is very healthy (and the entire point of forums!). The trap lies when discussions become repetitive, which they appear to be becoming here :¬)

Some people like the wam, some don't. Done :cool:

Lol, Ross, point taken. However, if every subject of discussion here were handled in such a scant and superficial way, it would be rather dull and boring, wouldn't it?

To give you another example:

"Some people like experimenting with cables, some don't. Done". Therefore, going by that assumption, there's no more to be said about cables....

If we applied that superficial attitude to all discussions, there would be no forum! ;)

Marco.

[Yoga]

Lol, point taken. However, if every subject of discussion here were handled in such a scant and superficial way, it would be rather dull and boring, wouldn't it?

To give you another example:

"Some people like experimenting with cables, some don't. Done".

If we took that superficial viewpoint with everything, there would be no forum! ;)

Marco.

LOL! Completely agree. I learned a lot from the cable discussions. It did reach a point where some were less than accepting, shall we say :eyebrows:

Moderated well, as always.

[alfie2902]

Absolutely, Nick, and I of course share your sentiments.

Let's just remember, too, chaps that this thread is about Wigwam, and NOT James himself, his personality – or even Richard! ;)

However, within that context, this is an open forum, and so everyone is entitled to voice their opinion on the thread subject: Wigwam, and the current happenings there.

In that respect, Alfie, I think you’re protesting rather too much and turning your legitimate opinion on a community you no doubt feel a big part of, into no more than a rant, and unfortunately in the process devaluing some valid points, so try and keep your emotions in check, dude!

Foul language aside, what do you think of certain, let’s call them, 'vociferous' characters on Wigwam, showing more TOLERANCE AND RESPECT towards people in future, particularly new members, who may not share the same opinions as the assembled 'cognoscenti', and reducing the propensity of the former to ridicule and humiliate people they disagree with?

Might that change in those guilty of such behaviour also aid good relations and contribute towards the future success of Wigwam??

I think there's a danger here of the attitude prevailing that 'Wigwam is what it is, so deal with it', and brushing things under the carpet (which I feel if not properly addressed will return to haunt WW in future), rather than using this opportunity constructively to address and attempt to fix some of the problems which caused the unfortunate recent events in the first place!!

There - that was my turn to use a couple of exclamation marks.... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco!!! ;)

I don't believe I have been protesting to much at all! I just seemed to be a single member fighting from the opposite corner! Perhaps if anything, I was protesting to well :lolsign:, but I will try & keep my emotions in check in line with the forums wishes.

As to the TOLERANCE AND RESPECT bit I guess what will be will be! There is to be some changes I believe on the Wam, but after seeing who some of the newly appointed Mods are I expect very little change towards the ethos as it is now! IMO that is a good thing, as it's what makes the Wam different to here & I like the choice!

Oh dear Frank, I can see the C**t word being just as a big a part of the Wam as ever, now Sodders is one of the new Mods :eyebrows: It's only a word though & was freely used in victorian times, It's a modern repulsion some have against it ;)

I hope there is a change to how new members are treated & I think some of the new mods will help in this way, but I fear the new members will want to see what's in the private section & there the Wam will be the Wam!

I also believe the Wam is a broader church than here, as this place was started as a subjectivist forum & very much still is so! Which is a good thing IMO. The Wam started with pretty much the same ideal I think. Now though there seems to be plenty of measurement types, cable believers & non-believers, hence more circular pitched battles!

All we can do is see what happens with the Wam after it's relaunch, but I wouldn't hold your breath for to much change!

I enjoy a nice friendly quite pub sometimes, But other times I do enjoy the excitement of a spit & sawdust bar room brawl :lol:

vive la différence!!

[Effem]

No bother from me Alfie if that is your bag.

It isn't mine and as I said earlier, it is not for me - hence I left of my own free will.

Whatever becomes of it is no concern of mine.

[montesquieu]

I think that does miss the point, Marco.

If a particular forum style is not for you, fair enough, then go elsewhere.
There are other forums - AOS is a good example of a contrasting atmosphere to the Wigwam.

I'm a Wammer of long-standing & I very much enjoyed the atmosphere of old there - helpful views and advice, a generous sharing spirit, vociferous debate, a bit of a barney now & then, but overall a great atmosphere and a fun place to be, only needing a moderately thick skin. It was still too much for some folks, and that's fair enough. They came to AOS and elsewhere.

But of late the Wigwam has degenerated into a far less tolerant and loutish place, and also an unacceptably bigoted, racist and sexist environment, in my view. I rarely visited the non-hifi parts of the Wigwam for that latter reason. Too often, it really wasn't pleasant or even civilised.

In my view, the Wigwam was degenerating rapidly into a noxious environment. It wasn't healthy and it needs to change. I hope the new ruleset and moderation rules will address these issues.

Sure, I too can go elsewhere! ... I can spend even more time here, and I think I will. :) ... but the Wigwam has so much that is different to offer - I hope it can see the errors of its ways and get back to the excellent & welcoming forum that it used to be.

Jerry and I frequently disagree on music but I wholeheartedly agree with all of what he said here. I would like to see some rowing back too, which should (given some good will) be perfectly possible without ruining the character of the place.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I hope it can see the errors of its ways and get back to the excellent & welcoming forum that it used to be.

When was that?

[mido]

When was that?

:D

[jandl100]

I deliberately went back and edited my post to include the "welcoming" word - as that is what the Wigwam used to be.

EDIT: post edited at Marco's request.