Speaker Chat

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Have we got anything left to learn or have we just lost the plot and need to get it back.

Is speaker production and design just a marketing exercise for WAF and IPod users. This is the way it seems to me to be going. So drive unit production costs have gone down with Chinese production, but so has quality to a degree. No one (manufacturer) wants efficiency in drivers or big drivers any more as it costs money.

So is the future active WAF factor speakers with class D modules built in made in China with probably an Ipod dock on top. I seriously hope not but us nutters are not a big enough group to influence the market.

[John]

Unfortantly I think you maybe right Richard
Hopefully they should always be a small market for high efficency big speakers but for most people the size and not knowing what such a speaker is capable of will always be a limitining factor
It does need to cost big money if you willing to go down a DIY route and stunning value to performance levels too, but thats a even smaller minority

[Reid Malenfant]

Look up Creative Sound Solutions SDX15 ;) These are also built in China, now you can't tell me these are small or of poor quality. I know they aren't as i have four of them & they'll be put to use as soon as possible.

Saved you the trouble (http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-SDX15-data-121107.pdf) :eyebrows:

[aquapiranha]

I think WAF has a lot to do with it, many people are not allowed to have whatever speakers they like in the lounge ( I am not among them I hasten to add :eyebrows:) and I am sure this is why there are more and more tiny (and hence compromised) speakers on the market.
As for drivers made in China, I am not convinced that they are all sub-standard, I imagine lots of them are designed elsewhere and then produced in China because they do cheap volume production well but that doesn't mean there is no quality control.
I have built a few DIY designs myself, and this enabled me to make whatever I like at reasonable cost, but still maintain high sound quality. One thing that does concern me though is the prices often charged for speakers when you consider the production costs. I have seen speakers using cheap (but good) Fostex drivers costing thousands...:rolleyes:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Look up Creative Sound Solutions SDX15 ;) These are also built in China, now you can't tell me these are small or of poor quality. I know they aren't as i have four of them & they'll be put to use as soon as possible.

Saved you the trouble (http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-SDX15-data-121107.pdf) :eyebrows:

No speaker manufacturer is going to use something of that quality, they couldn't cost it in and not rip you off. It is for the likes of you and other DIY-ers. That is not what I am talking about.

[Reid Malenfant]

Try these people then Richard Hivi (http://www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=9). Apparently a good load of these drivers are used in commercial designs.

I have no proof of this though, but some admittedly don't look bad at all ;)

[Jonboy]

Have we got anything left to learn or have we just lost the plot and need to get it back.



Probably not much left to learn hence the strong interest in old Tannoys and the like
Most people are just content with a small all in one system, some might venture up to a av system but still built around satalite speakers and maybe a sub

we only represent the minority in the food chain with our big ulgy boxes

[chelsea]

I think most was done by the 80's and have at best stood still.
I really feel people into top quality audio will dwindle out and we are the last generation.


Give me big speakers any day.Blokes seem to have to match the veneer of there speakers to match the skirting boards.

[Reid Malenfant]

Where do you think anything is made these days? Take a look at this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320710358638&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT) :eyebrows:

I bought a pair of these (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/pair-great-AT-C-tweeter-25MM-dome-Free-shipping-/320713652531?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4aac05f933) for Alex_Uk cheap as chips challenge, they work perfectly. I guess the UK is stuffed :rolleyes:

I guess i ought to knock some of the price off for postage, no idea how much that would be though :lol:

[BTH K10A]

More people are now into "lifestyle" living and de-cluttering which often means clean lines and less visible componants including speakers. I'd say that low cost modern speakers are probably better now than they ever were, especially with the advent of the sub / satelite systems. Consider the current source for the majority of the younger generation is no longer a PL12D or Philips CD but an IPod, and it follows that docking stations with trendy sat / subs are where the money is and it makes economic sense to pitch at that market. It's nothing new though, as small cheap speakers have always been the staple diet of the masses.

As far as reduction in quality of drivers. A lot of the famous names of old have either gone or moved production to china. In the US the has been an outcry over JBL moving production to Mexico with a percieved loss of quality.

Notwithstanding any of the above, there has and will always be manufacturerers making high quality speakers both large and small because there is a market. The downside is that we pay a premium for what is essentially low volume production runs.

[Marco]

That pretty much sums up my view, Andy :)

I also think that WAF has got way out of control in recent years, and is now at ridiculous levels; why I'm not entirely sure.....

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

More people are now into "lifestyle" living and de-cluttering which often means clean lines and less visible componants including speakers. I'd say that low cost modern speakers are probably better now than they ever were, especially with the advent of the sub / satelite systems. Consider the current source for the majority of the younger generation is no longer a PL12D or Philips CD but an IPod, and it follows that docking stations with trendy sat / subs are where the money is and it makes economic sense to pitch at that market. It's nothing new though, as small cheap speakers have always been the staple diet of the masses.

As far as reduction in quality of drivers. A lot of the famous names of old have either gone or moved production to china. In the US the has been an outcry over JBL moving production to Mexico with a percieved loss of quality.

Notwithstanding any of the above, there has and will always be manufacturerers making high quality speakers both large and small because there is a market. The downside is that we pay a premium for what is essentially low volume production runs.

Sats and subs are a classic example of where we have lost it.

[Reid Malenfant]

Sats and subs are a classic example of where we have lost it.
Strangely i find myself in agreement ;) Full range speakers & down to the depths i find much more musical.

[BTH K10A]

Strangely i find myself in agreement ;) Full range speakers & down to the depths i find much more musical.

The point I was making is that sats & subs have raised the bar for speakers the general populace are most likely to buy.

WRT full range speakers, there is probably more choice now than there ever was so what has been changed/ruined?

[BTH K10A]

That pretty much sums up my view, Andy :)

I also think that WAF has got way out of control in recent years, and is now at ridiculous levels; why I'm not entirely sure.....

Marco.

New age man is no longer master of the household. :lolsign:

[Marco]

Indeed, and is more likely to wear a pink pinny than the trousers! ;)

Marco.

[colinB]

Its all your own fault taking your wifeys to Ikea. They all want minimal living rooms now and no clutter.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

So why are a lot of the cognoscente, especially in Japan, only interested in *old* Lowthers, Tannoys etc

[colinB]

Same reason they like bentleys or Burbery coats, the asian consumers love quaint old British design.

[Marco]

Yes that, and in the case of old Lowthers and Tannoys, their sonic abilities are unparalleled today.

Marco.

[colinB]

I dont doubt it Marco and respect to the Japanese and chinese for good taste.

[BTH K10A]

So why are a lot of the cognoscente, especially in Japan, only interested in *old* Lowthers, Tannoys etc

The Japanese hi fi experience goes a lot further than just the sound. As Colin said it's about owning something of quality and history and is not restricted to British hi fi either. The pinnacle for the majority of these afficianados is to own a Western Electric cinema speaker system. This would be something like a shearer horn loaded with twin 4181a 18" field coil bass drivers, either 555 or 494a mid range field coil compression drivers on a 25a 15 cell horn and a 597a field coil HF driver. I've heard a set up similar to this and the sould is effortless, smooth and not fatiguing. My K10A's are effectively a permanent magnet 4181a with a concentric mounted compression driver and get close the the sound of the full WE system.

Andy

[Marco]

I think in that respect you're absolutely right, Andy.

However, it's interesting that all the 'Jap favs' I own or have heard, such as numerous direct-drive turntables, particularly SP10s, EMTs, and EMT cartridges, Ortofon SPUs, Denon DL-103s, Shure M3Ds, Fidelity Research and Audiocraft tonearms, various vintage tube amps such as Radford and Leak, vintage Tannoys, Lowthers, Altecs, LS35As, Spendor BC1s, etc, not only are "something of quality and history", but sound bloody good, too, and in some cases, spectacular....

Coincidence? I think not! ;)

Although I also love owning equipment of quality and history, I wouldn't own it in the first place if it didn't sound superb, as that is its primary purpose. And so for me, Japanese audiophiles not only have immaculate taste in audio equipment, but arguably some of the most discerning ears in the business.

Marco.

[electric beach]

I really feel people into top quality audio will dwindle out and we are the last generation.

Give me big speakers any day.


I wonder if this was how people felt with the introduction of solid state and the consequent development of smaller multi driver speakers?

I believe part of the problem is exposure to what is possible, not mere acceptance of a lower quality. The acceptance of MP3 must be mainly due to the availability of cheap / free music and the format dictated by download and portable storage limits.

Maybe as uncompressed files become more available, download speeds better and quality computer audio more widely understood, then we may see a backlash against MP3. At least the latest generation are interested in music as much as ever before, in far higher numbers, so the pool of potential to educate can't be an issue.

Then there are some people who would like a "high fidelity" music replay system but not a hobby - just buy a system and use it. Where will they hear this without the retail outlets?

[John]

I think the acceptence of MP£ is more due how most people listen either an Ipod or mobile phone on shity heaphones. For most quality does not matter

[electric beach]

I think the acceptence of MP£ is more due how most people listen either an Ipod or mobile phone on shity heaphones. For most quality does not matter


Is that MP£ intentional? :lol:

Like $ony.

[electric beach]

I think the acceptence of MP£ is more due how most people listen either an Ipod or mobile phone on shity heaphones. For most quality does not matter

They're not mutually exclusive John. The Ipod is the equivalent of our old portable cassette decks. Doesn't mean you can't have a HiFi at home. I was happy with the sound quality (well, never even considered it really, it was all about the 'tune' and current popularity at 13 to about 16) until I met a HiFreak and his LP12. Even though I played in a band and was interested in sound quality, you need the exposure somehow to get aware.

I've helped both my daughter and a work colleague to get set up with a decent Ipod valve docking station which also takes input from a CD player. Now they are both getting dissatisfied with the MP£ quality and want to develop and upgrade their systems. My son-in-law has a father always into his system, then me, so now he joins the hobby. It's about exposure at some point.

But we have to get our heads round the idea that most people want and appreciate quality sound, but on a real world budget and not an addiction :eyebrows:

[Juha]

Message #9 here: Where do you think anything is made these days? Take a look at this. (Dali Ikon tweeter with ribbon)

Thanks a lot.
I ordered a pair from ebay. 51 gbp with postage. I will try this with some 8 inch woofers and electronic crossover.

Here I am supporting the semi counterfeit shadow economy of China. This is bending morals a bit. But I have to have more ribbon tweeters ....:doh:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I am not sure if the US lost it as much as we did, at least they didn't have to go through the BBC thing, which for me was the start of the downfall.

In terms of hi-fi and not pro-audio (which the yanks have excelled in) they had a good start with AR and then moved it on with Allison and Snell, but apart from that they seem to have gone the same way as us. OK we got the Snell originals here and as it is now as modified as Audio Note. But we missed out on Allison, very few here as they were right in the middle of the flat earth bullshit and very few were willing to listen or trust their ears. If you find old big Allisons, they will probably need new foams and they are far from WAF, but even so bite the guys hand off and get them, you will not be disapointed.

[griffo104]

Some of us aren't in a position to have big speakers with BIG bass due to our living conditions. for that reason I love the small modern bookshelf that excels at imaging and detail and is small enough and, yes, pretty enough to fit both living room and living conditions I'm stuck with.

some of us have to live with speakers that are constrained to fit in to our living rather than being able to actually choose the speakers we would ideally like to live with.

Speakers are awkward things. I'm sure some of the big speakers sound fantastic but in my room would be boomy and due to being in a flat I'd never be able to give them the welly they deserve therefore they aren't an option.

Too many people from bake offs I've been to have bought the speakers they wanted and heard in the demo room and have box swapped trying to get the best out of them without realising the room and their living conditions are main problem.

In a big room my speakers would sound dreadful - way too light - but in my room I can enjoy their strengths and live with their weakness.

So modern speaker design and fashion have enabled me to get the best out of the situation.

[griffo104]

I am not sure if the US lost it as much as we did, at least they didn't have to go through the BBC thing, which for me was the start of the downfall.

In terms of hi-fi and not pro-audio (which the yanks have excelled in) they had a good start with AR and then moved it on with Allison and Snell, but apart from that they seem to have gone the same way as us. OK we got the Snell originals here and as it is now as modified as Audio Note. But we missed out on Allison, very few here as they were right in the middle of the flat earth bullshit and very few were willing to listen or trust their ears. If you find old big Allisons, they will probably need new foams and they are far from WAF, but even so bite the guys hand off and get them, you will not be disapointed.

I read an interview a few years back with Allison in Stereophile. Came across as a genuinely top bloke and it's a shame his designs never really got big over here. He spoke an awful lot of sense.

[nat8808]

Have we got anything left to learn or have we just lost the plot and need to get it back.

Is speaker production and design just a marketing exercise for WAF and IPod users. This is the way it seems to me to be going. So drive unit production costs have gone down with Chinese production, but so has quality to a degree. No one (manufacturer) wants efficiency in drivers or big drivers any more as it costs money.

So is the future active WAF factor speakers with class D modules built in made in China with probably an Ipod dock on top. I seriously hope not but us nutters are not a big enough group to influence the market.

Aren't there lots of great new speakers out there that fit in with the minimalist and lifestyle image of today? I see photos of them all the time and all using top quality drivers. Thing is they cost ££££thousands. That's not to say they're not there though.

Perhaps you're discounting them because of their price and asking what is available to the average Joe at good prices? If so, then that's not necessarily about the state of speaker production but about hi-end hifi in general, twinned with people's general lack of interest isn't it?

If there's a lack of interest then that can cause manufacturers to seek cheaper production costs and end up with cheaper speakers so that price doesn't conflict with that mass lack-of-interest market they're forced to aim at (rather than compete in a smaller high-end market).

Everyone else in between (more numerous than the high-end crowd but still a small minority) can find their bargains in the secondhand market.. no need to make anything new in that non-profitable market is there?

[Alex_UK]

No secret that I have loved the Harbeths I've heard, and the P3ESR proved to me that you can have a great sound from a small box. As for new technology - well, they may (like other models in the range) stem from the BBC tradition but the latest Radial drive units are bang up to date and the result of 4 years of development.

Of course, Richard's opinion that "the BBC thing" heralded the downfall of speaker development is one that not all share, myself included.

[chelsea]

I wonder if this was how people felt with the introduction of solid state and the consequent development of smaller multi driver speakers?

I believe part of the problem is exposure to what is possible, not mere acceptance of a lower quality. The acceptance of MP3 must be mainly due to the availability of cheap / free music and the format dictated by download and portable storage limits.

Maybe as uncompressed files become more available, download speeds better and quality computer audio more widely understood, then we may see a backlash against MP3. At least the latest generation are interested in music as much as ever before, in far higher numbers, so the pool of potential to educate can't be an issue.

Then there are some people who would like a "high fidelity" music replay system but not a hobby - just buy a system and use it. Where will they hear this without the retail outlets?

For most of us we have been able to walk into hifi shops for decades.
I will be very surprised if there are any hi fi shops left in 5 to 10 years.

Where will the younger generation hear seperates?


I'am guessing it will just be surround sound and ipod/docking stations.

I feel very lucky to have been able to wonder into shops in the 70s and 80s and dribble over stuff i couldn't afford.

[griffo104]

For most of us we have been able to walk into hifi shops for decades.
I will be very surprised if there are any hi fi shops left in 5 to 10 years.

Where will the younger generation hear seperates?


I'am guessing it will just be surround sound and ipod/docking stations.

I feel very lucky to have been able to wonder into shops in the 70s and 80s and dribble over stuff i couldn't afford.

The only hifi shops that may remain will be boutique type shops of which companies like B&O currently do. these are around in the watch world where super expensive stuff is sold and the only people going in the silly rich.

The other will be the likes of richer who probably shift more TVs and blu-ray players than they do proper hifi even though in Cambridge Audio they have an excellent affordable brand.

Hifi shop swill disappear.

the acceptance of dreadful ipod docks appeals to the younger generation. why should they have big bulky speakers in teir room when their whole music collection is in the palm of their hand ?

As I mentioned in a different thread, the digital age has allowed many different source of music and that convenience and lack of quality subsequently spreads over the whole range.

I had a non-hifi mate telling me that he recently heard his ipod through a 'proper' system and couldn't believe how flat ti sounded compared the CD through the same system. He accepts the limitation of it but can't justify the cost.

seeing the price of so many statement speakers nowadays, you can't blame him.

and if I get one more person ask me where they can get wireless speakers from I will throttle them with my speaker cable (oh the irony).

A friend has a Sonus system throughout the house and the speakers are in the ceiling. It sounds dreadful. No source, no imagery, no detail but that's what he wants. A smart elegent system driven through his laptop to any room in the house.

For the money he spent he could have bought a decent budget setup which would have blown his socks off. the only benefit he gave me to having speakers in the ceiling ? He didn't want horrible wooden boxes in the rooms.

[worthingpagan]

without a proper hifi system in the lounge, it ain't really a proper lounge, imo :cool: stuff the ipod, digital wireless etc, it sounds like shyte and while I live and breath it will ALWAYS be seperates in my home :steam:

[John]

They're not mutually exclusive John. The Ipod is the equivalent of our old portable cassette decks. Doesn't mean you can't have a HiFi at home. I was happy with the sound quality (well, never even considered it really, it was all about the 'tune' and current popularity at 13 to about 16) until I met a HiFreak and his LP12. Even though I played in a band and was interested in sound quality, you need the exposure somehow to get aware.

I've helped both my daughter and a work colleague to get set up with a decent Ipod valve docking station which also takes input from a CD player. Now they are both getting dissatisfied with the MP£ quality and want to develop and upgrade their systems. My son-in-law has a father always into his system, then me, so now he joins the hobby. It's about exposure at some point.

But we have to get our heads round the idea that most people want and appreciate quality sound, but on a real world budget and not an addiction :eyebrows:

Some interesting points Steve
One thing to think in my 20s I could not give a f--- about hifi equipment I was to busy going to gigs playing guitar and trying to get laid :lolsign:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

No secret that I have loved the Harbeths I've heard, and the P3ESR proved to me that you can have a great sound from a small box. As for new technology - well, they may (like other models in the range) stem from the BBC tradition but the latest Radial drive units are bang up to date and the result of 4 years of development.

Of course, Richard's opinion that "the BBC thing" heralded the downfall of speaker development is one that not all share, myself included.

I have said before and I will say it again, I do not think anyone now designs the way the original BBC concept came about, if they did they would be daft. How many sources now contain a BBC voice. The companies that claim the inheritance are now doing it *purely* for marketing purposes.

That doesn't mean I agree with the way things are designed now. IMO it is mostly for cosmetic, WAF, convenience, farting ports for smallness with pretend bass, largely image and no substance.

[Marco]

I was to busy going to gigs playing guitar and trying to get laid...

Just trying? :flasher: :eyebrows:

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

That doesn't mean I agree with the way things are designed now. IMO it is mostly for cosmetic, WAF, convenience, farting ports for smallness with pretend bass, largely image and no substance.

Richard, there are speakers such as you describe but there are also lots of good speakers available. Perhaps more now than there ever were.

Real bass is determined by the laws of physics and IMHO a bass driver needs to be 14" or greater diameter to cut the mustard. Anything less is as you say just pretending. If it's in a box then large volume is another requisite. Unfortunately big boxes & big drivers = big money, so there will always be a demand for smaller affordable speakers.

Also as mentioned earlier in this thread, room size and availability will to some extent dictate speaker suitability. I'm lucky in having four reception rooms so have my own listening room but others are not so fortunate to the WAF issue comes into consideration.

Andy

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Richard, there are speakers such as you describe but there are also lots of good speakers available. Perhaps more now than there ever were.

Real bass is determined by the laws of physics and IMHO a bass driver needs to be 14" or greater diameter to cut the mustard. Anything less is as you say just pretending. If it's in a box then large volume is another requisite. Unfortunately big boxes & big drivers = big money, so there will always be a demand for smaller affordable speakers.

Also as mentioned earlier in this thread, room size and availability will to some extent dictate speaker suitability. I'm lucky in having four reception rooms so have my own listening room but others are not so fortunate to the WAF issue comes into consideration.

Andy

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

That doesn't mean I agree with the way things are designed now. IMO it is mostly for cosmetic, WAF, convenience, farting ports for smallness with pretend bass, largely image and no substance.

Now find any of those good ones in a shop for under £2000 - best of luck!

[John]

Just trying? :flasher: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Oh Yoda master I should remember there is no try, its do or do not ;)

[Marco]

Of course, Richard's opinion that "the BBC thing" heralded the downfall of speaker development is one that not all share, myself included.

Nor me... Personally, I think that particular view of Richard's is a little extreme, although I know where he's coming from.

Certainly every Harbeth (and most Classic range Spendors) I've heard, from the small ones to the biggies, has to my ears sounded excellent! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Oh Yoda master I should remember there is no try, its do or do not ;)

S'ok, dude - it's pretty obvious your were a stud! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well there was one designer who knew the right compromises to make to create an at least acceptable or in some case excellent small speakers. BUT the industry largely took the piss out of him and only now really is he being appreciated after he gave up in what can only be described as depression with the industry - and his name was Joe Acroyd.

[John]

I had my moments you have to remember back in the mid 80s lots of chicks into metal and I used to go out 3 to 5 nights a week but on the whole just moments lol

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

This thread is not about home grown stuff as in DIY. You will always get better quality and better value by DIY. What I am talking about is the pursuit of cost saving and creating perceived value being pursued by the major companies.

I have had to get a couple of 6 inch bass mids recently for a Dynaudio 72 and I was seriously underwhelmed by the quality of the driver. Pressed steel chassis and poor construction, and yet even at trade they charged me about £150 per driver. In my opinion they would have cost less than £20 to produce even in Germany with German labour costs. This is from a company claiming to be #2 in Europe after B&W.

[John]

Richard no offence ment but sometimes a thread goes down different avenues I totally get where you coming from it is about general speaker design and not the DIY route but a lot of us have gone down this route and whilst like big drivers it will never be a option for the average person on the street it does give amazing value

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Richard no offence ment but sometimes a thread goes down different avenues I totally get where you coming from it is about general speaker design and not the DIY route but a lot of us have gone down this route and whilst like big drivers it will never be a option for the average person on the street it does give amazing value

Well we used to have commercially available exceptional speakers even with technology limitations of the time. Marco likes Celestion, I like old Goodmans like the Magnum and Magister. We used to be able to make and sell them through retail, so what happened, why is everything commercial now just perceived value but basically cheap quality or costs the same as a car or even a small house. I discount some small manufacturers run by enthusiast and not marketing men and accountants as they are still trying, but even they couldn't cost in some of the large efficient drivers that have been mentioned in this thread.

So back to basics, could anyone commercially reproduce the Celestion Ditton 44 for example and use better modern case design and material, and if they did what price would it be. If we could produce those drivers in the UK back in the 70's then the parts to make them must still be available, it is not rocket science.

[John]

It would cost a lot to make something like the Ditton 44 or 66 now and I wonder in this modern world how they would sell I think there is always a market for good quality speakers but its a very competitive area

[Marco]

Marco likes Celestion...


Indeed, but don't forget Tannoy! ;)

As good as, say, my 66s are (and they are bloody good, as all of those heard who were at Scalford Hall in March), the Lockwoods still smoke 'em, as indeed they should....

However, I'm in full agreement with your post above, so it'll be interesting reading what folks think :)

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

It would cost a lot to make something like the Ditton 44 or 66 now and I wonder in this modern world how they would sell I think there is always a market for good quality speakers but its a very competitive area

But that is my point, IMO opinion good driver quality is not a modern option unless you pay a fortune. Now the Ditton 44 back in its day represented far less of a percentage of disposable income than an equivalent costs now, so what has changed, is it all middle men taking bigger share, or the manufacturers looking for bigger and bigger margins.

[Theo]

But that is my point, IMO opinion good driver quality is not a modern option unless you pay a fortune. Now the Ditton 44 back in its day represented far less of a percentage of disposable income than an equivalent costs now, so what has changed, is it all middle men taking bigger share, or the manufacturers looking for bigger and bigger margins.

It's a fair point, but the market has surely shrunk too much to make a large run economically and commercially viable: I bet speakers are manufactured are in their hundreds these days, as opposed to 000's in 60s/70s. It will always be a hobby industry now. I'm not worried about that, and I expect things to be more bespoke than in the past.

Having said all that, some new speakers are "aspirational" in terms of pricing :). Just pleased that there are loads of wonderful vintage models out there for the old brigade, and a goodly number of people who can repair things too. That should keep us amused until our dotage. The kids will continue to buy "style" systems and speakers; for the majority of them, music seems to be the thing that accompanies games or other activities.

[Alex_UK]

But that is my point, IMO opinion good driver quality is not a modern option unless you pay a fortune. Now the Ditton 44 back in its day represented far less of a percentage of disposable income than an equivalent costs now, so what has changed, is it all middle men taking bigger share, or the manufacturers looking for bigger and bigger margins.

As Theo has said - economies of scale - Dittons where produced in their thousands and thousands at a time when every home had a hifi... Not EVERYTHING is down to Retailers or Manufacturers being greedy, surely... :doh: (You forgot to blame the magazines, BTW! ;))

[Marco]

Hi Alex,


Dittons where produced in their thousands and thousands at a time when every home had a hifi...


I think almost every home does now; the difference being that the hi-fi systems which generally graced the inside of homes in the 70s, deserved the name! ;)

I also suspect that Richard's point was more to do with standards having dropped significantly today in affordable loudspeaker design (an opinion I wholly agree with), than ranting about retailers and manufacturers being greedy... :)

Marco.

[griffo104]

Hi Alex,



I think almost every home does now; the difference being that the hi-fi systems which generally graced the inside of homes in the 70s, deserved the name! ;)

I also suspect that Richard's point was more to do with standards having dropped significantly today in affordable loudspeaker design (an opinion I wholly agree with), than ranting about retailers and manufacturers being greedy... :)

Marco.

Disagree slightly. at one point when dittons roamed the earth hifi was aspirational and something you had to show how well you were doing and better the neighbours.

Most 'music systems' in the modern world are there for convenience and NOT for the whole listening experience.

If you took 40 houses from a common UK street I doubt you would even find a 'proper' hifi in one of them.

Hifi is no longer aspirational to the common man - ok maybe a B&O system which are lifestyle anyhow - it's more aspirational to those of us in to the hobby and that's barely 1% of the adult population. Of those most will need WAF friendly speakers in order to get them in to the main listening area. This does sadly cut out some of the 70's fugly speakers regardless of their performance.

[AlexM]

Marco/All,

Without wishing to be too much of a contrarian, I'm not so sure about the quality of most of the HiFi systems in the 70's being so much better than that available now. I think that there was plenty of dross (perhaps the majority) sold then, although there were some exceptional components (for the time) for those able to afford them. I just think that more people considered this a priority then than now.

Interesting comment that a 14" bass driver is necessary for 'real' bass. Not sure why unless you need 120Db SPLs or have a puny amplifier. Modern designers often trade efficiency for extension and maximum SPLs in order to get decent bass from smallish drivers, and this is valid where space or tastes constrain the use of a large volume box. Does anyone apart from B&W actually made a speaker with a 15" bass driver nowadays?. Some modern speakers do have excellent bass quality, and this is certainly available for less than £2k, or substantially less purchasing second hand. I'm sure that there are many, many enjoyable speakers still available from decades past, but IMHO I think that it would be doing current designers and manufacturers a great disservice to ignore the excellent sound that is achievable currently.

I'm not sure why there is a consensus that modern drivers aren't up to much - there are many good units available, and yes, some of them are made in China. Power handling is generally much higher now than then, HF units are much better than anything available in the 70s/80s and modern cone materials are much more consistent and better behaved too. There were high performance drivers available then as now, but they weren't generally seen in mass market products.

I do remember many speakers in the 70's being designed for big, fat, poorly controlled bass and with a visually impressive collection of cones (such as the Wharfdale E70/E90), many domestic JBLs and others, such as were people's tastes and preferences. I don't remember many of those that I listened to being musically that accurate.

I'd love to see some analysis of typical component prices adjusted for inflation - I would expect that the expatriation of manufacture to China has held prices much lower than they would be for comparable products manufactured here. Some products will clearly be very much more expensive now then they were then (cough... Linn.. couch :)).

I think that the manufacturers respond to relentless pressure from customers to a) drive down prices and b) product some 'sound' from an all-in-one system the size of a shoe box. Large speakers of the type that were acceptable domestically in the 70's represented a significant chunk of disposable income then, and were probably something of a status symbol whereas now most people would rather own a very large chunk of shiny German metal than an expensive HiFi. Just a sign of the times I'm afraid.

However we are lucky in that we can buy a Saville Row suit at charity shop prices, to use an analogy, although many 'cult' items are going for stupifying prices that aren't really justifiable in reality.

As always, I think that transducers are the area of our hobby where there is the greatest scope for differentiation of taste and preference, so if you don't agree with my point of view, then that is fine and more power to you.

BR,

Alex

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

As Theo has said - economies of scale - Dittons where produced in their thousands and thousands at a time when every home had a hifi... Not EVERYTHING is down to Retailers or Manufacturers being greedy, surely... :doh: (You forgot to blame the magazines, BTW! ;))

Well you give me *your* explanation as to what it is down to.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Marco/All,

Without wishing to be too much of a contrarian, I'm not so sure about the quality of most of the HiFi systems in the 70's being so much better than that available now. I think that there was plenty of dross (perhaps the majority) sold then, although there were some exceptional components (for the time) for those able to afford them. I just think that more people considered this a priority then than now.

Interesting comment that a 14" bass driver is necessary for 'real' bass. Not sure why unless you need 120Db SPLs or have a puny amplifier. Modern designers often trade efficiency for extension and maximum SPLs in order to get decent bass from smallish drivers, and this is valid where space or tastes constrain the use of a large volume box. Does anyone apart from B&W actually made a speaker with a 15" bass driver nowadays?. Some modern speakers do have excellent bass quality, and this is certainly available for less than £2k, or substantially less purchasing second hand. I'm sure that there are many, many enjoyable speakers still available from decades past, but IMHO I think that it would be doing current designers and manufacturers a great disservice to ignore the excellent sound that is achievable currently.

I'm not sure why there is a consensus that modern drivers aren't up to much - there are many good units available, and yes, some of them are made in China. Power handling is generally much higher now than then, HF units are much better than anything available in the 70s/80s and modern cone materials are much more consistent and better behaved too. There were high performance drivers available then as now, but they weren't generally seen in mass market products.

I do remember many speakers in the 70's being designed for big, fat, poorly controlled bass and with a visually impressive collection of cones (such as the Wharfdale E70/E90), many domestic JBLs and others, such as were people's tastes and preferences. I don't remember many of those that I listened to being musically that accurate.

I'd love to see some analysis of typical component prices adjusted for inflation - I would expect that the expatriation of manufacture to China has held prices much lower than they would be for comparable products manufactured here. Some products will clearly be very much more expensive now then they were then (cough... Linn.. couch :)).

I think that the manufacturers respond to relentless pressure from customers to a) drive down prices and b) product some 'sound' from an all-in-one system the size of a shoe box. Large speakers of the type that were acceptable domestically in the 70's represented a significant chunk of disposable income then, and were probably something of a status symbol whereas now most people would rather own a very large chunk of shiny German metal than an expensive HiFi. Just a sign of the times I'm afraid.

However we are lucky in that we can buy a Saville Row suit at charity shop prices, to use an analogy, although many 'cult' items are going for stupifying prices that aren't really justifiable in reality.

As always, I think that transducers are the area of our hobby where there is the greatest scope for differentiation of taste and preference, so if you don't agree with my point of view, then that is fine and more power to you.

BR,

Alex

Odd ain't it, I dissagree with everything written here and could counter each sentence. Perhaps we just disagree as to what makes a good speaker.

Of course there was crap in the 70's and 80's but you knew, if you knew, if you know what I mean - what was the crap, it was obvious, you only had to look at the speaker, or just tap it. Plastic, thin chipboard all image no substance and it was obvious. Now it is different - you can't tell unless you strip it down, what looks well made and expensive speakers often have cheap crap drivers in them.

I was talking earlier about these Dynaudio bass mid driver from the Audience72. Well here is a pic of it next to the same size driver I use in the Cube2

http://i56.tinypic.com/2n9gqqe.jpg

From the front the driver looks the business, but just feeling the weight and looking around the back tells you a very different story.

And I am not just picking on Dynaudio, all the big companies do this, and those speakers were about £2000.

[Marco]

I'll comment more later chaps - but is there any chance we could resize images before posting them? It makes a right mess of the page otherwise, unless you're using a widescreen monitor..... :rolleyes:

Cheers! :cool:

{Edit: I see Richard has now done it} :)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

From the front the driver looks the business, but just feeling the weight and looking around the back tells you a very different story.
Have you considered the possibility that the Dynaudio driver is using a Neodymium magnet Richard? If it is then it wouldn't need anywhere near the size of magnetic assembly & it'd be about as expensive as the large magnet on the other driver pictured ;)

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Have you considered the possibility that the Dynaudio driver is using a Neodymium magnet Richard? If it is then it wouldn't need anywhere near the size of magnetic assembly & it'd be about as expensive as the large magnet on the other driver pictured ;)

Sigh! it is a thin pressed steel chassis with no inherent strength, all the money has been spent on how it looks from the front, as that is all any customer sees.

Look at those driver you were singing the praises of earlier, do you see a magnet assembly of that small size, no matter what the material used.

Once again you are in here to fart around and nit pick, I wonder why.

[Reid Malenfant]

Excuse me i think you really ought to retract what you just said, i'm in no way here to "fart about" or "nit pick" as you call it.

I was stating a fact, the dynaudios use neodymium magnets! Admittedly the basket may well be made of pressed steel, but the most expensive part of the speaker is the damn magnet assembly :rolleyes:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Excuse me i think you really ought to retract what you just said, i'm in no way here to "nit pick" as you call it.

I was stating a fact, the dynaudios use neodymium magnets! Admittedly the basket may well be made of pressed steel, but the most expensive part of the speaker is the damn magnet assembly :rolleyes:

Well done you succeed in your aim.

[AlexM]

Odd ain't it, I dissagree with everything written here and could counter each sentence. Perhaps we just disagree as to what makes a good speaker.

What? disagree with **Everything** i wrote ;) That is fine, I have no particularly strongly held viewpoint to defend,and do feel free to enlighten us if you wish.

Regards,
Alex

[BTH K10A]

I was talking earlier about these Dynaudio bass mid driver from the Audience72. Well here is a pic of it next to the same size driver I use in the Cube2

http://i56.tinypic.com/2n9gqqe.jpg

From the front the driver looks the business, but just feeling the weight and looking around the back tells you a very different story.

And I am not just picking on Dynaudio, all the big companies do this, and those speakers were about £2000.

To be honest both speakers in the pics seem fairly average in build quality but that's not what it's all about. Yes it's great to have basket that can support the weight of a battleship and a quarter of a million maxwells flux but it's how they sound that matters.

Neodymium magnets are a lot lighter than ferrites and I doubt that with a driver of that size, having a pressed steel basket is going to compromise anything.

I use newish JBL and vintage BTH speakers that IMHO are substantially better in build quality than your examples, but that doesn't necessarily mean they sound any better. The fact they probably do has nothing to do with the build qualtiy of the baskets. :)

A figure of £2,000 has been cited, but it would be interesting to compare how much that is worth in real spending power compared to the 50's, 60's & 70's

This government white paper whilst only considering up to 2002 is nevertheless quite enlightening.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp2003/rp03-082.pdf

[Alex_UK]

Well you give me *your* explanation as to what it is down to.

Well, I don't know to be honest. it could very well be the cost of labour. in the 60s and 70s manual factory labour here was very cheap compared to today, possibly even compared to Far Eastern labour now, relatively speaking.

I dare bet the cost of raw materials is dramatically higher than 40 or 50 years ago, as is the cost of energy.

But, mainly as I said, I would guess it is economies of scale. It costs the same on R & D to develop a speaker whether you sell 1,000 or 100,000. Similarly, tooling, development of packaging, marketing etc. etc. are all the same, and have to be divided amongst a much smaller unit count, therefore increasing the cost of each of those units.

I have no idea really, I'm only musing and I certainly don't have any conspiracy theories on the matter, just plain market forces to my mind.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well obviously this is just my opinion. But cheap used to be cheap, and when even a company like Wharfedale who used to make some good speakers, changed tack and went into the dross market in the 80's, you still knew cheap was cheap, now you don't know.

I see it all as a smoke screen now which even neodymium magnets doesn't clear. It is the modern law of perceived value not real value. Perhaps I am just an old git harkening for the good old days, when men were real men and speakers were real speakers.

[AlexM]

I found a sterling inflation and price calculator at http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/.

Apparently a £2000 spend today was equivalent to 1200 of your 1990 pounds, £630 in 1980 and £170 in 1970.

Now how much was an Austin Metro 1.1 in 1980? What is it worth now? :). Let's see how much some of our vintage kit would cost nowadays...

Cheers,
A.

P.S. The calculator states that Interest in 1975 stood at 24.2% :eek:

[Marco]

Sigh! it is a thin pressed steel chassis with no inherent strength, all the money has been spent on how it looks from the front, as that is all any customer sees.

Look at those driver you were singing the praises of earlier, do you see a magnet assembly of that small size, no matter what the material used.

Once again you are in here to fart around and nit pick, I wonder why.

I don't think that's the case, Richard, so please drop the provocative language. Mark and you obviously have some different ideas about audio, and enjoy expressing them. You are both knowledgeable and opinionated on many subjects, which is no bad thing :)

But you need to stop seeing each other as 'the enemy' and learn to co-exist together in harmony, without the niggling that's going on at the moment, and bite your tongue sometimes, otherwise you're driving the mods here into an early grave!

So let's get it together, guys, please... Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Marco, you may have noticed that i was perfectly polite through the whole conversation, i certainly didn't provoke him in any way what so ever.

Quite how i managed to control myself i'm not so sure, but as can also be seen, i did :)


Perhaps we can get back to loudspeakers now...

[Marco]

Indeed :cool:

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Have you considered the possibility that the Dynaudio driver is using a Neodymium magnet Richard? If it is then it wouldn't need anywhere near the size of magnetic assembly & it'd be about as expensive as the large magnet on the other driver pictured ;)

I have just disassembled the old speaker the one in the picture is to replace and it has a normal ferrite magnet, so they don't even have that excuse.

[peterd123]

I have a pair of Celestion Ditton 66's that sound great. But on opening the covers, I find that I have two different base drivers.:steam: One is a 5 ohm and the other is 8 ohm, which it should be. So does anyone know where I could buy a 12" 8 ohm base driver to match the original?
Regards
Pete