View Full Version : Forum flavours of the month
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 10:33
Forum hypes, or flavour of the months. We all see them, and when you see the same thing across all the main forums it must lead us to believe it is some sort of marketing campaign, and yet on the surface it is normal forum members doing the hype.
So what are we suffering from. Over enthusiastic users who just haven't heard enough different things, or trade disguised as normal non trade members.
Also is it a good thing, is it just giving opportunity for unknown product to get a name. Or is it just a different marketing strategy to replace the magazine hype which is losing its credibility. Or is it a bad thing, just creating a turnover blip followed by a lot of second hand sales on ebay
Do you think you fall for it, does that make you a mug or just open minded.
jantheman
19-06-2011, 10:47
Do you think you fall for it, does that make you a mug or just open minded.
No, some have said worse, definately not........:cool:
I constantly swim against the tide. While I ask others their opinions they are after all, opinions. In the end I do what I have always done...go my own way
I take everything I read as IMO and everything and when I write about what I enjoy it should be treated with same view point
I think sometimes it good will and enthusiasm and sometimes it not
It's an interesting topic, and one which crosses my mind on a regular basis. I sometimes like to think that it can (in a good way) bring about a re-adjustment of what is actually good out there - the recent resurgance in good quality DD turntables is a prime example I think.
With the good old www news of such gets round much more quickly than before, and of course it's not down to the ears of a few journos, whose printed words many people seem to hang to as though they were gospel.
As Jtm says above, I too try as much as possible to keep a totally open mind - even having to put up with crazy geezers telling me to listen to ancient wooden-boxed Japanese turntables. ;)
The downside of course is that those who jump up and down with great (and sincerely-intended) enthusiasm about a new 'discovery' often end up putting others off, simply because the cynics don't like the apple-cart being pushed off the road into the ditch. Trouble is, that apple-cart has been holding the traffic up for far too long. :)
Given that most people are on several forums, it's easy enough for a relatively small group to generate a wave of interest in a particular product; sometimes this is genuinely just some people wanting to share their enthusiasm, but I'm sure it's sometimes disguised viral marketing by those with a vested interest.
My own view of such 'flavour of the month' stuff is that it's madness to judge a single component outside the context of my own system, in my own room, so unless whatever it is comes with a free home trial and the option to return if not satisfied, I'm not interested. Which isn't to say i haven't been caught up in such hype in the past.
I don't recall any blatent schilling of a product on AOS in the 2 years I have been reading this site. Maybe it happens elsewhere, I don't know, I don't tend to look at the other forums very often. Or maybe it happens on AOS and I just don't spot it?
The only bit of hi-fi I have bought based on a suggestion from this forum was my Croft pre - and I had a free home trial of that before I ponied up the dough.
Covenant
19-06-2011, 11:58
Given that most of the forum hyped items are of low cost I have often chosen to try them. Sometimes it works for me and sometimes it doesn't. Generally its easy to move the item on if its reasonably priced so whats the big deal if it doesn't live up to the hype?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 12:49
Given that most of the forum hyped items are of low cost I have often chosen to try them. Sometimes it works for me and sometimes it doesn't. Generally its easy to move the item on if its reasonably priced so whats the big deal if it doesn't live up to the hype?
Sometimes they are low cost sometimes they aren't. Sometimes the product goes well beyond flavour of the month and develops its own momentum as with the Beresford DAC, and yet you will find that some forums don't like this and then restrict discussion of it, which seems to have happened at PFM and especially WW with different products.
So then we get the question, are some forums too sensitive and want to control what their members discuss. I know in at least one major forums case it is based on jealousy as I have a private email from the owner that proves it "why should I allow **** to make money from my forum".
to make money from my forum".
A forum is only as good as its members and it really is collectively 'owned' by the members. They can all easily jump ship and move if an admin runs it poorly and upsets too many. Once enough key members move others eventually follow. Look at the WAD forum... it has very little actively compared to the good old days and those ole school boys have moved to Nick's forum. Other likes me have moved here. I don't care much for Wigwam for some reason...
Covenant
19-06-2011, 13:09
I know what you mean. There was a period where you could not even mention the word Beresford on WW. I never really understood this but I think it was due to some disagreement between Stan and the WW mods. This seems to have died away now.
For me it very much depends on WHO is waxing lyrical about certain components that will stimulate my interest.
Having said that, it was me that was "Truly amazed" at Belkin's cheap wanky interconnect wire and that was only because of the headlong rush to buy the PF30 and PF40 mains conditioners at a cheap price. It was after I bought the PF30 on the strength of that feeding frenzy and was very impressed by it that I wanted a dabble with other Belkin products, hence the interconnect purchase.
A forum is only as good as its members and it really is collectively 'owned' by the members. They can all easily jump ship and move if an admin runs it poorly and upsets too many. Once enough key members move others eventually follow. Look at the WAD forum... it has very little actively compared to the good old days and those ole school boys have moved to Nick's forum. Other likes me have moved here. I don't care much for Wigwam for some reason...
Spot on, David! I don't see AoS as being 'my forum'. To do so would be to totally miss the point and consign it to failure, or simply to it being 'the fiefdom of Il Duce' (sorry, Richard, couldn't resist! :eyebrows:)
The fact is a forum will only ever be as good as the contributions of its members, although the 'direction' must be right from those who manage the site. But the reason AoS works so well is because of the sense of community amongst the membership, and that although we all have our own opinions, we're essentially a group of like-minded enthusiasts who are interested first and foremost in hi-fi and music, helping each other enjoy our hobby along the way, and not in petty point-scoring or the flouncing of egos.
Shilling is most certainly NOT permitted on AoS, and anyone found doing so will be banned. It doesn't take long to suss those with commercial agendas. All trade members here are declared as such and conform in that respect to the forum's requirements.
Oh, and I have no problem with trade members profiting financially from AoS - that's quite natural and also our way of putting something back into the industry. I however, have no interest whatsoever in being financially rewarded in the process. AoS is first and foremost a community for audio and music enthusiasts; it never was and never will be a largely commercial entity, and so we have no plans to charge our trade members a fee simply for being here or trading on our web space.
As for 'forum flavours of the month', well yes they do exist, and I'm not naïve enough to think that AoS is immune. However, I think that the difference between the 'flavours of the month' discussed here, and those on some other forums, is that they mostly last for much longer than that! ;)
Take the modded Techy and Beresford DAC, for example... Most of the resident aficionados have been using those products now for YEARS, and gradually upgrading them to become something rather special, sonically punching way above their weight, in terms of cost... Achieving the highest SPPV with audio equipment is, and will forever remain, a core part of our ethos.
Returning to the thread title, quite simply, genuinely good products stand the test of time, and so in time become rather more than mere 'flavours of the month'.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 14:21
There are plenty of flavours of the month here, sometimes promoted initially by the trade members and then pushed on by users. There is one on a fairly new forum where over 50% of the posts have been about the latest flavour of the month DAC the Young (and I am not saying it doesn't deserve it as I haven't heard it), BUT I just find the pushing and bullshit mildly irritating.
There is a whole world of product out there waiting to be discovered, and yet we get *certain* posters who change gear a lot who take some sort of pride in creating flavours of the month, almost a "look at me I discovered it" type of ego.
AND of course flavour of the month-ism denies the absolute of system synergy.
The trick that has been used since the Linn / Naim debacle was imposed on the industry is to keep the flavour of the month going until people build their systems around that product, then it becomes entrenched and we end up with the brainwashed sheep.
Vive le difference is what I say, the more variety and different approaches are available the more the industry is alive and kicking.
Quite simply, genuinely good products stand the test of time, and so in time become rather more than mere 'flavours of the month'.
Marco.
Totally agree. :)
I can back that up from personal experience of several products, one namely the good old DL103 which I 'discovered' (purely by accident as it happens - someone was selling a BNIB one for a silly-low price so I though 'what the hell') about 12 years ago. I still love the old nail too.
There does seem to be disquiet though in some quarters who still go out of their way to poo-poo products which do exactly what you describe above. Still, their loss imho. :)
There are plenty of flavours of the month here, sometimes promoted initially by the trade members and then pushed on by users.
Such as, Richard? I'm interested in your perspective on this.
There is one on a fairly new forum where over 50% of the posts have been about the latest flavour of the month DAC the Young (and I am not saying it doesn't deserve it as I haven't heard it), BUT I just find the pushing and bullshit mildly irritating.
Ok, I'm aware of the Young DAC, but have no experience of it whatsoever, and so cannot comment on its efficacy or otherwise.
Thing is, how do you differentiate between users rightly praising a genuinely superb product (and so bringing it to the attention of others enthusiasts who may also benefit from its sonic talents), and them simply doing so, egotistically, to spawn a 'flavour of the month'?
Using myself as an example, if I discover a product which I consider as being a bit special, particularly when I feel it has 'giant-killer' written all over it, then I'll back it from the rooftops. But the motivation for doing so is never about ego, or creating a 'flavour of the month', and always about alerting my fellow enthusiasts of a product which could result in improving their system, and in turn, their enjoyment of music.
That is the fundamental raison d'être of an audio forum, IMO: the relating and sharing of relevant, and possibly mutually beneficial, information and experiences.
Whilst I understand where you're coming from, I think it smacks somewhat dangerously of cynicism, when equipment and ancillaries being championed for genuine reasons by those concerned, is automatically viewed as suspicious, and as if there exists an ulterior motive. Cynical minds learn little!
AND of course flavour of the month-ism denies the absolute of system synergy.
The trick that has been used since the Linn / Naim debacle was imposed on the industry is to keep the flavour of the month going until people build their systems around that product, then it becomes entrenched and we end up with the brainwashed sheep.
I can't stand that sort of mentality, and we would as far as possible stop that from happening here.
Vive le difference is what I say, the more variety and different approaches are available the more the industry is alive and kicking.
I completely agree, and on AoS we'll always seek to promote choice. A good example of this is how the Vantage audio modifications for the Techy have been welcomed, and indeed championed, even though Richard (from Vantage) is not a member here, and thus his products could affect the sales of those from others who are.
So yes indeed, vive la différence, but only if said "différence" is worth having in the first place! ;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 15:03
Well that was what the OP was about, it is full of questions not answers and there are many grey areas, and my users praise nva as well on forums when they are allowed as I had the same thing as Beresford did at WW.
I won't go into specifics because it is human nature, it happens in all types of product, and in politics. I am just creating a debate about it to see if we can establish a guideline or a consensus as to what is acceptable.
I just wish I could create an open mind as the biggest flavour of the month, but the objectivist would want to prove such a concept exists, the arch subjectivists would start pushing strawberry flavour (or what ever) as their favourite. The Linn-ies would say thats no good it has to have a K in it. Ho-hum! c'est la vie, now't so strange as folk etc etc.
No motive Marco just discussion.
Anyway off down the smoke to have some noodles in Chinatown and have the squirrels in St James Park run up the outside of my trouser leg to get a hazelnut, and a walk down the Thames Path to the Tate Modern for a quick nose around and a drink in the panoramic bar, and then back for nice cup of tea before bed - I will pick up the discussion then.
No worries. Sounds nice, so enjoy! :cool:
I'll be tucking in soon to some home-made pot-roasted guinea fowl with a sage, celery, thyme and orange sauce, accompanied by a rather fine Haut-Médoc :cheers:
Marco.
A good product will allways be a good product.
The audiolab dac looks like old hat as the young takes the stage,all within a few months.
So much good stuff out there that probably never got the praise,especially from the 70s/80s.
For me that's where most of the bargains lie.
There was such a big turnover (nearly every 6 months from the big jap companies)then it is hard to dig out the gems.
Good thing is most are pretty cheap and there is not a lot to lose.
I think on most forums you get to trust certain people's judgement,even more so if you have heard there system.
Just to add i'am looking for a cart and will be relying on people's judgement on the net for that as i can't afford or am able to try many.
The Linn-ies would say thats no good it has to have a K in it. Ho-hum! c'est la vie, now't so strange as folk etc etc.
Ah, so that explains where the Belkins came from! :lol:
Guilty as the next man for jumping on the band-wagon, but a few quid on an interconnect or speaker cables, or a stretch to a T-Amp is about as far as I would go on the basis of forum hype - once you start talking hundreds not tens of pounds, then I doubt many people would jump in with both feet without first exercising both ears - I only really stay on AoS, and I'm pretty confident we haven't been conned into anything by subversive marketing on here.
Sometimes flavour of the month is because some killer device comes onto market, is pushed by a cult following & develops from there. Fair enough a dealer may be promoting a product, but this is just business.
If you went on DIYAudio.com you'd see that Salas discrete shunt regulators are very much flavour of the month currently featuring in DACs, phono stages, buffers etc. Is it because there is little commercial intent that this is the "good" flavour of the month rather than the "bad" flavour of the month?
I really don't think there's anything malicious or suspect in hyped products by a fanbase. One thing that tends to bind these trends is the product usually appears to represent exceptional value for money.
Of course I do take such things with a pinch of salt & listen for myself.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 21:55
I really don't think there's anything malicious or suspect in hyped products by a fanbase. One thing that tends to bind these trends is the product usually appears to represent exceptional value for money.
That is fine and I largely agree. I was not saying there was any malicious intent. What I am concerned about is the spotlight falls on certain products and members can then hype it like mad and the band wagon becomes overloaded and in some cases the forum as well.
By far the worst that got me thinking about this was initiated at PFM by SQ(whatever) last August and it is still going, and has had to be split four times by TonyL see http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101062 and the other three are further down - 2167 posts about some Audiolab products - Ffffing daft.
If something this daft happened here Marco what would you do?
This could be viewed more as more providing a public service - there is a lot of interest in this product. The Audiolab thread would be dead if it were not useful to so many, wouldn't it? The thing has taken on a life of it's own, however daft or useless it is to someone without an interest in the product.
Perhaps recent DACs are an interesting example, it seems a new level of performance is now available to the great unwashed - ie better performance at accessible prices. People are comparing sub-1k DACs to machines that ruled the roost at 2k and more a few months ago. It's reasonable that it causes some excitement.
By far the worst that got me thinking about this was initiated at PFM by SQ(whatever) last August and it is still going, and has had to be split four times by TonyL see http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101062 and the other three are further down - 2167 posts about some Audiolab products - Ffffing daft.
If something this daft happened here Marco what would you do?
No idea, dude. Give me the gist of what the thread(s) were about, other than the obvious? I haven't read them, as being a fan of quality vintage digital components, the Audiolab DAC (good though it may be) doesn't really interest me. And I've got no intention of reading 1000s of posts to find out what all the kerfuffle was about.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 22:31
No idea, dude. Give me the gist of what the thread(s) were about, other than the obvious? I haven't read them, as being a fan of quality vintage digital components, the Audiolab DAC (good though it may be) doesn't really interest me. And I've got no intention of reading 1000s of posts to find out what all the kerfuffle was about.
Marco.
You would die of boredom, it is marketing hype of the worst type, initiated by a marketing man, and he is even proud of it - praising himself on yet another forum for managing to virtually block up PFM with it, and asking why hadn't the marketing dept of Audiolab thought about doing it :rolleyes:
So does Simon (SQ) have something to do with Audiolab, or are you saying he was simply doing it for an ego trip, to create a 'flavour of the month', as that's the DAC he uses?
Excuse my ignorance of the 'history'. I do read pfm, but only really for the Techy and Tannoy threads :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 22:35
"This could be viewed more as more providing a public service"
Public service my pimpled arse!! it is self gratification and ego - "look at how I can dominate a forum with my self perceived expertise and bullshit".
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 22:46
or are you saying he was simply doing it for an ego trip, to create a 'flavour of the month', as that's the DAC he uses?
Marco.
That is my point, and as far as I know he doesn't use it, it is all about how he can manipulate a thread and a forum to make it as long as possible to prove his marketing expertise. How big an ego trip do you want. This is what he wrote on that other forum :- "HIfi marketers don't appear to be cut from forward thinking cloth (implied "as me"). Example, I was the first person to start Audiolab threads on many forums, their marketing depts hadn't even thought of it. The 8200CDQ thread on Pink Fish has been split 4 times to make it manageable for the servers and totals well in excess of 100,000 page views. The IAG marketing dept are so backwards I bet they don't even have a methodology to track the value of and integrate things like forum posts into their marketing." If this is not pride and ego in boring the F out of us I don't know what is. Its a wonder he didn't send a bill to IAG.
Ok this is extreme but aren't a lot of us just a little bit guilty of this at times. I am largely playing devils advocate with this as I really don't know at what level this is acceptable.
The public get what the public want.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 22:57
The public get what the public want.
And "we get the politicians we deserve", is the other apt saying that is also very applicable in this case
It's a difficult one for me to comment on, Richard, simply because I haven't been following the threads concerned, and thus haven't examined Simon's input on them.
However, on the face of it, excluding usual thread drift, the extensive discussion of one specific product, initially on a single thread, does seem excessive. I guess it depends on how much genuinely useful information there was about the Audiolab DAC on the thread concerned, and how much of it was just Simon on a marketing ego trip, as was your assessment of the situation.
I guess that Tony must've felt the discussion was in some way relevant and had merit, as otherwise he'd have simply binned the lot, and not gone to the bother of splitting it into separate threads.
To answer your earlier question, if such a discussion were to take place on AoS, I'd insist from the beginning that it had a valid constructive purpose and that it was going somewhere in the interests of the majority of the membership, and if not, it'd quickly be binned.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
19-06-2011, 23:21
There are certain *insiders* at PFM who get away with far more then others would ever be allowed to.
I cannot imagine you allowing that sort of blatant hype to take over this forum. I can imagine it is now listed on SQ's CV :lol:
BUT as I say this is extreme, but for example do you really think in the real world the amount of time and space devoted to the Techy here is justified. We all have our pet projects, but a little standing back and looking at ourselves occasionally (as I have done recently) does no harm.
Please don't get me wrong I am not picking on the Techy, I am using it as an example. AND yet again this is for debate, as I am really unsure at what point this is acceptable and at what point it becomes more like a business, even if it is not a business if you know what I mean.
BUT as I say this is extreme, but for example do you really think in the real world the amount of time and space devoted to the Techy here is justified. We all have our pet projects, but a little standing back and looking at ourselves occasionally (as I have done recently) does no harm.
Of course it doesn't, and I understand what you're getting at. It's a difficult question to answer though, as how does one quantify "justified"?
The way I look at it, if all the time and space devoted here to the Techy has succeeded to save some people money from splashing out much more instead on a so-called 'hi-end' turntable (likely belt-driven from the 'usual suspects'), and in turn has allowed them to enjoy their music on vinyl like never before (and there is plenty of evidence of this), then it is indeed justified.
My continual championing of the (judiciously) modified Techy is about showcasing what I consider as a truly world-class turntable, costing way less than a truly world-class price. How can you not get excited when a T/T that's cost you around £3.5k totally outclasses others you've heard at five times that price? Of course you want to tell people about it, and introduce them to the action! :)
But then you get cynical folk, with an axe to grind, looking upon such behaviour suspiciously, as if those like me who champion the modded Techy have something to gain other than the simple satisfaction of knowing that they own a rather special and unique turntable (such as it is when highly modified), and the pleasure derived from trying to help others achieve the same... :rolleyes:
Let me assure you that I have no business interests regarding sales of Techy modifications. My unbridled enthusiasm for the product is derived simply from being a delighted user and wanting others to have the opportunity to discover its sonic delights for themselves.
But part of it for me is also the sense of satisfaction I derive from giving a virtual 'two-fingered salute' to those who have commercial interests to protect by promoting sales of hi-end belt-drive turntables, and thus being a thorn in their side.
It's payback time for me, for all the biased, blinkered, bullshit and brainwashing we had to endure in the 70s and 80s, when the fruitbox from Glasgow could do no wrong. It's also about 'poking' other hi-end T/T manufacturers, such as SME, some of whose products, IMO, do not deserve their reputation and are also vastly overpriced for the performance on offer, and all that in general 'badge-fi' stands for.
So for every person who reads AoS and buys into the modded Techy route, or purchases some other quality direct-drive T/T, second-hand, instead of an LP12, or whatever else the hi-fi press, some dealers, and the so-called 'cognoscenti' say they should have instead, it acts as some form of compensation for all the wonderful products from other manufacturers people were deprived of listening to during the days of Linn (and Naim) mania, and the dogma that went with it.
And so the direct-drive T/T 'revolution' will continue unabated on AoS! ;)
Marco.
jandl100
20-06-2011, 07:10
Interesting thread.
Not sure what I want to say about it really ....
I guess I am more "guilty" than many re: starting forum "hype" threads, mainly on the Wigwam forum. :)
What started me off was the shock of a random trial of a mk2 Beresford DAC back in 2006. It was way better than it had any right to be, and I just wanted to share my enthusiasm for a great, cheap product from a non-badge small manufacturer who gave me good service but hadn't a hope in hell of competing with the advertising budgets of the big 'names'.
I was young and naive back in those days with regard to the online forums and I have to admit that I went a bit OTT. :)
But it got a lot of folks to try it, and many were as pleased as I was with it.
There was already a fair bit of forum interest in it when I came along on the Wigwam, mainly referring across to the US forums where it was already a bit contentious. I feel sure that I helped raise the Beresford DAC's profile even further in the UK, and I am pleased to have done so.
Yes, there was/is some ego involved in these threads for me - it is nice to see folks post "nice one, Jerry, many thanks" etc.
And to be fair, a lot of folks encourage me to post about my latest fave equipment and new discoveries.
I know that it does irritate/annoy some folks - but I suspect they are in the minority and I know of quite a few forum lurkers as well as forum regulars who watch my boxswapping shenanigans with great interest.
It's kind of spooky sometimes - a lot of folks remember far more than I do what kit I have had and what I thought about it! :scratch: :)
The audioLab thread on PF only seems excessive if it is framed that way - a little more information adds a bit of balance & context. The AudioLab DAC has been eagerly awaited for almost four years now - there is also a thread on DIYAudio in which John Westlake's new design is discussed at length. Si (SQ...) posted a lot in that discussion.
That DIYAudio thread even records the moment the decision was taken to get the design manufactured by IAG (AudioLab) a couple of years ago, so it should be clear this fuss is all about John Westlake & his abilities rather than a viral 'AudioLab is great' movement.
I have read the thread on PF from the beginning, as I had decided on JW's DAC a good while ago. The only thing that made me go elsewhere was my impatience at how long IAG took to get their finger out & produce the thing - the model I wanted still is not released. :rolleyes:
Why has the thread grown so much? Perhaps there are two main reasons:
1) Because it is one of the best DACs available at a decent price (-apparently), and
2) Because the designer, John Westlake posts in the thread answering questions, providing support for those with faulty units, taking feedback and actually changing & revising the design based on what PFers are asking for! The forum posters are actually changing design decisions, and JW is offering spectacular service to the punters, even upgrading earlier units for free.
That’s why the PF thread has become almost a worldwide one-stop-shop foe anything to do with the AudioLab 8200 CDPs/DACs.
This is the brave new world of HiFi & Forums – we have seen such designer/punter interaction before and it should be encouaged. For instance, Richards own forum (thehifisubjectivist.com) is you would go if you wanted to know something about NVA, and to a lesser extent, people will come here to discuss/ask about Beresford DACs or perhaps even Tube Distinction amplifiers.
Moving to larger forum rather than having a manufacturer forum (like Harbeth or Naim) is a smart move because a designer can talk to a wider cross-section of people who might even buy the product (so yes, there is a marketing element) and who can give feedback & suggestions. Marketing is a concern bit if you read the PF thread I don't think JW can be accused of that.
And as for saying one knows the motivation of someone for someone starting a thread and judging them based on a comment taken out of context, let's not even go there! :scratch:
StanleyB
20-06-2011, 07:56
It could be argued that the Beresford DACs were discussed on AoS in great detail, and the format copied over on PFM for the Audiolab DAC. Others have since followed in copying the AoS style even further, and that includes Richard.
Mind you, there were attempt t0 start topics on the Beresford on PFM, but high financial demands and insider interference soon put a stop to that.
I personally don't object to small one man band designers or manufacturers posting about their products on forums provided it is done discretely and without shoving it down people's throats that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and I think Stanley has been rather good at that over the years, as an excellent example.
Yes it is "marketing" whatever label you put on it, but that also helps to keep the prices reasonable for the finished product and the other bonus is a hotlink to the person who can sort any problems out.
However, if any member has stumbled upon a "miracle product" and is merely relaying that enthusiasm to the membership again very discretely that too is fine with me. It is when the products are constantly being promulgated and other contenders are being constantly shoved aside with these repetitive recommendations, it is then tiresome for me as the reader and I am also sure it is counter-productive within a short space of time.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 08:59
Others have since followed in copying the AoS style even further, and that includes Richard.
Mind you, there were attempt t0 start topics on the Beresford on PFM, but high financial demands and insider interference soon put a stop to that.
I am sure I have never done it or instigated my users to do it. If it happens it should happen naturally as Marco says about the Techy (but then people jump on the band wagon to make money, and some fall out with others from competition and it can all becomes messy and political).
Your other point, it is very apt. So why are you successful here, where as the Westlake is at PFM and yours is blocked, and the Young at Chews at the expense of even other threads :scratch: to the point it dominates the whole forum.
So who is right and who is wrong, which is the best DAC and does it really matter. AND that is my point, it takes away from personal choice and the absolute prime importance of system synergy. It becomes a forum marketing battle with the foot soldiers being the users. Marco shows in his post about the Techy how the emotion of this takes over, yet I understand completely and agree with all his points about the positioning of brands and bullshit in the past. You can see how this *can* take away the open mind as you drive yourself up a cul-de-sac of opinion that your ego will not allow you to back out of.
Well I suppose historically we all like to stand under a flag, so like most things we are just playing with human nature.
Hi Jerry,
I guess I am more "guilty" than many re: starting forum "hype" threads, mainly on the Wigwam forum.
Aye, it's all your fault! Bastid... ;)
What started me off was the shock of a random trial of a mk2 Beresford DAC back in 2006. It was way better than it had any right to be, and I just wanted to share my enthusiasm for a great, cheap product from a non-badge small manufacturer who gave me good service but hadn't a hope in hell of competing with the advertising budgets of the big 'names'.
I applaud you for that, and indeed would encourage others to do more of the same. The more we champion products that deliver high SPPV, the more likely some manufacturers will listen to what people want, and provide it, instead of some of the non-descript, rather ordinary sounding, cack currently being foisted upon us in certain areas of the hi-fi market.
In that respect, I don't think some people realise how influential what's written by members on the main UK audio forums is on the industry. The Internet is now the main vehicle that the trade use to do business, and so when what's written about products on busy forums such as AoS, pfm and Wigwam, shows up all over the place on search engines, those in the hi-fi industry are forced to sit up and take notice!
So long may that continue to happen... Let the voice of the punters be heard!
Yes, there was/is some ego involved in these threads for me - it is nice to see folks post "nice one, Jerry, many thanks" etc.
And to be fair, a lot of folks encourage me to post about my latest fave equipment and new discoveries.
Indeed. I guess that you could call it ego, but it's a good type of ego to have if all you want to do is help people make an informed choice. I too get a buzz when people thank me for my recommendations, and I get this almost every day in public and in private from people all over the world.
How nice is that? Not that you're getting praise, but that you've genuinely improved someone's life and their enjoyment of music. I make no apologies for feeling good about that!
All you can do is relate your experiences, and then allow others to make up their own minds about what you've written about certain products. That's what forums like this are for, or should we all just be selfish and keep to ourselves the fab kit that we discover? If so, then why become a member of an audio forum? :scratch:
If it's simply to be part of a clique, then stay away from AoS, as we're not interested in having cliques!
I know that it does irritate/annoy some folks - but I suspect they are in the minority and I know of quite a few forum lurkers as well as forum regulars who watch my boxswapping shenanigans with great interest.
Indeed, and I could say the same about others and my 'escapades'. So long may we continue to irritate and annoy the idiots who have a problem with that, and my message to them would simply be this: 'Deal with it, f*ckheads!' :ner: :finger:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 09:10
However, if any member has stumbled upon a "miracle product" and is merely relaying that enthusiasm to the membership again very discretely that too is fine with me. It is when the products are constantly being promulgated and other contenders are being constantly shoved aside with these repetitive recommendations, it is then tiresome for me as the reader and I am also sure it is counter-productive within a short space of time.
That is my point in a nutshell. AND when that is being done by the poster to become some sort of forum *hero*. Or to prove his marketing ability (by a professional marketing man in another field) for the sake of his own ego.
jandl100
20-06-2011, 09:10
.... and my message to them would simply be this: 'Deal with it, f*ckheads!' :ner: :finger:
Marco.
Succinctly put, as always! :eyebrows:
Lol - well, you know me: never afraid to call a spade, a spade! ;)
That is my point in a nutshell. AND when that is being done by the poster to become some sort of forum *hero*. Or to prove his marketing ability (by a professional marketing man in another field) for the sake of his own ego.
Indeed, and that's when it becomes counterproductive: when ego supersedes the desire to genuinely help. Fortunately, I think that this is a rare occurrence here, or it's certainly not something that I think would be deliberate.
I also think that it's only natural for people to recommend what they know, and that will generally be the equipment that they use, or have used in the past.
Yes, that can sometimes be a little unhelpful, but far better that than folk waffling on about stuff they’ve never used, and talking nonsense, simply to satisfy their blinkered agendas (or ego) and/or the need to always be 'right'!
Marco.
So long may we continue to irritate and annoy the idiots who have a problem with that, and my message to them would simply be this: 'Deal with it, f*ckheads!' :ner: :finger:
Marco.
Hey Marco - you got splinters up yer *rse from sitting on that fence?? :lol:
I'd put my hand up and admit to being guilty of recommending stuff to people on other forums - not just because it's damn good kit - but because it may well just annoy the hell out of those who don't feel it fits in with their own views or agendas. A case in point was a year or so ago when I was using Richard's brilliant little AP40X which comfortably blew away the 'forum fave'. Even had pm's from folk questioning my hearing. Still, their loss. :scratch:
And there was me thinking it was all about using my ears...ho hum.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 09:56
Hey Marco - you got splinters up yer *rse from sitting on that fence?? :lol:
I'd put my hand up and admit to being guilty of recommending stuff to people on other forums - not just because it's damn good kit - but because it may well just annoy the hell out of those who don't feel it fits in with their own views or agendas. A case in point was a year or so ago when I was using Richard's brilliant little AP40X which comfortably blew away the 'forum fave'. Even had pm's from folk questioning my hearing. Still, their loss. :scratch:
And there was me thinking it was all about using my ears...ho hum.
But that is what forums are for, and I don't mean just NVA :) I am talking about excessive or deliberate promotion of a product i.e. just turning forums into underhand marketing vehicles, or vehicles for some members to play ego games.
Some US forums like Head-fi have internalised this to make money out of it. Which means anyone outside of their happy band of approved and paying companies get shat on, the way the Beresford was a couple of years ago.
StanleyB
20-06-2011, 10:00
Some US forums like Head-fi have internalised this to make money out of it. Which means anyone outside of their happy band of approved and paying companies get shat on, the way the Beresford was a couple of years ago.
They are not cheap. You should have seen the payment request I received from them. I could have bought a five star holiday for the family to the Seychelles for that. But I refused and then they turned on me.
But that is what forums are for, and I don't mean just NVA :) I am talking about excessive or deliberate promotion of a product i.e. just turning forums into underhand marketing vehicles, or vehicles for some members to play ego games.
Totally agree - and what really gets me is that there are those folk - normally lucid, intelligent people - who can't actually see this going on. Personally, as soon as I see this sort of stuff going on it's time to hit the 'off' switch and not contribute. It can be entertaining though - annoyingly at times - but entertaining nonetheless. Although it does seem to go into the realms of self-harm at times. :lol:
They are not cheap. You should have seen the payment request I received from them. I could have bought a five star holiday for the family to the Seychelles for that. But I refused and then they turned on me.
:steam: 'nuff said.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 10:37
They are not cheap. You should have seen the payment request I received from them. I could have bought a five star holiday for the family to the Seychelles for that. But I refused and then they turned on me.
Their other trick is if a new or unknown product is talked about on the forum by owners then you get emails (I got three) from their leading posters and mods asking for one free of charge and they will do a review on it for the forum. One was even boasting about how his review boosted sales and how pleased the company was with his efforts.
I am a long time member of Head-fi and yes there are many FOTM going at the same time, but sometimes it backfires, such as with the first owners of the B&W P5.
Unless it is a long running 'Appreciation Thread' on a certain headphone, where many different, experienced and new members can discuss the merits of a product and you get a balanced view, I stay away.
I was a long standing member of the WHF forum, which has had a series of posts by new members wanted to extol the virtues of the AVI ADM9.1, all following the same theme. It is unusual to have a new member in their first post review a product in such detail with such knowledge.
I also fell for the Silver High Breed FOTM that started there. I see SHB cables are now about twice the price they originally were, but to be fair, I think that one just grew legs on its own and was not planned.
anthonyTD
20-06-2011, 11:44
Hi all,
just caught up with this thread, quite interesting although I suspect it may not be totally agenda free :eyebrows: I myself have no problem with a product being "flavor of the month" if it genuinely is that good and therefore deserves the credit it receives, however, I also understand that there are times when products are falsely pushed, not for their performance but for how much money can be made from doing so, This is of course acceptable if the customer is fully aware of this fact but still wants to purchase said item to either be in with a certain crowd, or just likes the bling factor that certain brands seem to be associated with. However, here at AOS I would like to think that the members are a bit more switched on to this, and would only consider purchasing products on recommendation from people who really rate them for their performance rather than their “trophy value”
I would also like to add that if certain people are feeling a bit left out by the new flavor of the month product, what ever that may be, and they feel that strongly about its apparent impression on the gullible, then I suggest they come up with their own version, and if it turns out right it too stands a good chance of becoming the next flavor of the month product.
Anthony,TD...
I feel one company has done itself more damage by it's constant banging on about it's speaker for years on forums.
Hwever good there products are there marketing has put off ever wanting to trying them.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 12:09
Hi all,
just caught up with this thread, quite interesting although I suspect it may not be totally agenda free :eyebrows:
Anthony,TD...
Ok so what crap are you accusing me of now :rolleyes: if you want an agenda then look at your statement above. Sad isn't it when your agenda is me :steam:
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark, Richard. Anthony didn't mean any harm. Come on, you've got to learn to take a bit of ribbing here, dude! ;)
Their other trick is if a new or unknown product is talked about on the forum by owners then you get emails (I got three) from their leading posters and mods asking for one free of charge and they will do a review on it for the forum. One was even boasting about how his review boosted sales and how pleased the company was with his efforts.
Oh FFS, those people need a right good slap, as that is ridiculous... :rolleyes:
Even in my privileged position here, I can say hand on heart that I've never asked anyone for a free piece of equipment in exchange for a good review. First of all, those who sell equipment I'd be interested in having would quite rightly tell me to f*ck off :eyebrows:, and secondly, once you start going down that road, you lose all credibility, because the truth will eventually come out!
Any products I use that trade members here sell, I have paid for in full, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Yes, I get asked to review things all the time, but I will only do so IF I use the product myself and know what it does inside out - and also when I have the time to do it justice.
Currently, I've got about half a dozen reviews that I want to do, but unfortunately don't have the time to do the job properly - and I don't do half measures. Hopefully though, that situation will change at the end of the month, when I take a nice long summer holiday with Del, who's off work then for seven weeks (she a teacher) - that is once we get back from sunning ourselves in Italy! :cool:
Marco.
StanleyB
20-06-2011, 12:41
I can say hand on heart that Marco has never even asked to borrow a DAC from me, even though we have known each other for several years :).
anthonyTD
20-06-2011, 13:09
Ok so what crap are you accusing me of now :rolleyes: if you want an agenda then look at your statement above.
Sad isn't it when your agenda is me :steam:
Hello Richard,
get a grip mate, i have taken on the chin enough of your digs aimed at me and other here over the last couple of years,:rolleyes: i think the trouble where your concerned is, i know my abilities and i have enough confidence in my products to know that when i design something it is to the best of my abilities, can you safely say the same ? if so, then i find it difficult to understand why you feel the need to start threads like this!
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 13:24
So I am quite correct, your agenda in this is me.
anthonyTD
20-06-2011, 13:37
So I am quite correct, your agenda in this is me.
hi Richard,
no agenda on my part, after-all, i didnt start this thread.:)
If your not refering to the thread then i would be very interested in your views on why you think i seem to have an agenda concerning you!
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 13:49
Quite simply you are in this thread with an agenda to find an excuse to dig at me, nothing to with the topic - purely off topic - and pure ad hominem. Which if you do not realise means you have turned the poster into becoming the subject which is *exactly* what you have done.
And this is the behaviour of a moderator, just the same as the other one who was pulling the same stunts.
anthonyTD
20-06-2011, 13:57
Quite simply you are in this thread with an agenda to find an excuse to dig at me, nothing to with the topic - purely off topic - and pure ad hominem. Which if you do not realise means you have turned the poster into becoming the subject which is *exactly* what you have done.
And this is the behaviour of a moderator, just the same as the other one who was pulling the same stunts.
hi Richard,
i would have commented on this thread no matter who started it, it just so happens that it was started by you, who i would like to remind you and any others reading this that you are a manufacturer, who openly advertises the fact, and therefore in that respect it could be seen that you may have an agenda for starting it!
I on the other hand have never advertised as being trade here on AOS or any other forum, and would therefore like to think that i have always done my best by AOS and its members as an individual, so with that in mind, please do not try to bully or belittle me, or play the sympathy card, it will not wash, just plead your case and lets see where this thread ends up.
Anthony,TD...
PS, Also, dont start with the "ad hominem" rubbish here, you may have gotten away with it on your own forum when someone chalenged you about something you didnt want to discuss, but it will not be tolerated here.
Richard, if you re-read Anthony's post #50, over the page, you'll see that other than his gentle ribbing of you in the first sentence, his comments were very much on-topic.
In the interests of balance, remember your comments a while back about my "pet bodgers" over on your forum (a totally undeserved and insulting remark, IMO), one of whom you were referring to, no doubt, was Anthony? Now of course we all want to move on and let bygones be bygones, but it's difficult for such things to be forgotten. Therefore, I think it's a little unrealistic not to expect him to gently poke you when he feels that you're being a little hypocritical!
You know I no longer have a problem with you, and indeed we've been getting on rather well, and long may that continue, but in order for you to make a success of your presence here, you must lose the 'victim mentality', whereby when anyone is remotely critical of you, you become very defensive and/or aggressive.
That is the only stumbling block that is currently preventing you from becoming very much a part of the AoS community. You're obviously making a considerable effort putting our past behind us, so I'd ask you to do the same with Anthony. If you do that, I'm sure he'll reciprocate. The longer there exists this niggling between you, the longer it will take for everyone to move on and make a fresh start :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:15
hi Richard,
i would have commented on this thread no matter who started it, it just so happens that it was started by you, who i would like to remind you and any others reading this that you are a manufacturer, who openly advertises the fact, and therefore in that respect it could be seen that you may have an agenda for starting it!
I on the other hand have never advertised as being trade here on AOS or any other forum, and would therefore like to think that i have always done my best by AOS and its members as an individual, so with that in mind, please do not try to bully or belittle me, or play the sympathy card, it will not wash, just plead your case and lets see where this thread ends up.
Anthony,TD...
Time to get your facts right if you are going to spout this nonsense.
1/ I didn't put myself here as trade, I requested to post as an individual *I was made trade*.
2/ How can you link me being a manufacturer with the subject of this thread. The two do not tie up. In fact no thread I have started or contributed to apart from Theo system he is selling and that was to help the buyers, has had anything at all to do with NVA. People like you and that other one have tried to make it that way but that is you two not me.
3/ Your interruption in this thread has been for no other purpose than to draw me into conflict, as the body of your first post shows. You made no contribution to the debate apart from linking the starting of it to an agenda of mine, which for the life of me I cannot see any possible motive or reason for me to create this discussion that could possibly have anything to do with NVA. AND now you refer to it as that I *may* have an agenda for starting it. Well what makes you think that *may* be the case apart from your desire for conflict.
anthonyTD
20-06-2011, 14:24
Time to get your facts right if you are going to spout this nonsense.
1/ I didn't put myself here as trade, I requested to post as an individual *I was made trade*.
2/ How can you link me being a manufacturer with the subject of this thread. The two do not tie up. In fact no thread I have started or contributed to apart from Theo system he is selling and that was to help the buyers, has had anything at all to do with NVA. People like you and that other one have tried to make it that way but that is you two not me.
3/ Your interruption in this thread has been for no other purpose than to draw me into conflict, as the body of your first post shows. You made no contribution to the debate apart from linking the starting of it to an agenda of mine, which for the life of me I cannot see any possible motive or reason for me to create this discussion that could possibly have anything to do with NVA. AND now you refer to it as that I *may* have an agenda for starting it. Well what makes you think that *may* be the case apart from your desire for conflict.
hi Richard,
you do not have to justify your motives for being here to me, however, where the genral public are concerned, ie; potential customers, then all i ask is that you are honest as to your motivation for starting what could be seen as quite a controversial subject!
now can we please get back to the subject and away from your personal paranoia of me!:rolleyes:
Anthony,TD...
Richard, please see my last post!
Also:
You made no contribution to the debate apart from linking the starting of it to an agenda of mine, which for the life of me I cannot see any possible motive or reason for me to create this discussion that could possibly have anything to do with NVA.
Not NVA, but would you not admit that partly the reason why you started this thread was to have a dig at Simon (sq225917) and pfm? Come on, be honest! ;)
I let it slide on this occasion because there were other parts of the discussion which I felt were worthy of the thread remaining.
Marco.
I'm not taking sides here, but I say that Anthony has offered to bury the hatchet and it would be a big man indeed that reciprocates.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:28
Richard, if you re-read Anthony's post #50, over the page, you'll see that other than his gentle ribbing of you in the first sentence, his comments were very much on-topic.
In the interests of balance, remember your comments a while back about my "pet bodgers" over on your forum (a totally undeserved and insulting remark, IMO), one of whom you were referring to, no doubt, was Anthony? Now of course we all want to move on and let bygones be bygones, but it's difficult for such things to be forgotten. Therefore, I think it's a little unrealistic not to expect him to gently poke you when he feels that you're being a little hypocritical!
You know I no longer have a problem with you, and indeed we've been getting on rather well, and long may that continue, but in order for you to make a success of your presence here, you must lose the 'victim mentality', whereby when anyone is remotely critical of you, you become very defensive and/or aggressive.
That is the only stumbling block that is currently preventing you from becoming very much a part of the AoS community. You're obviously making a considerable effort putting our past behind us, so I'd ask you to do the same with Anthony. If you do that, I'm sure he'll reciprocate. The longer there exists this niggling between you, the longer it will take for everyone to move on and make a fresh start :)
Marco.
Did I start this Marco - NO!
Regarding pet bodgers, I have used the same expression in a post here, and you laughed which is exactly the intent of it. From the outside to *a lot* of people that is the way it looks or more to the point looked in the past.
As far as I am concerned this forum is a completely different beast (apart from a small number of exceptions as displayed here) than it was even a year ago and even more so two years ago. Now this is obviously personal perception. If this was two years ago I wouldn't have wanted to be back here. There is a different atmosphere now to my perception and you know perfectly well what I think has mostly changed - you! so I have changed as well to meet you half way, but if I am personally attacked I will defend myself, I cannot help it.
Richard,
Did I start this Marco - NO!
It's not a question of who started what. You're entitled to your opinion, and so is Anthony. Just because you may NOT LIKE what he's saying, doesn't automatically make it an attack on you :doh:
Regarding pet bodgers, I have used the same expression in a post here, and you laughed which is exactly the intent of it.
Sorry, I really can't remember that. Do you remember where the discussion happened?
From the outside to *a lot* of people that is the way it looks or more to the point looked in the past.
That may have been your perception of things then, but whatever way you cut it, referring to a highly experienced and talented professional audio engineer as a "pet bodger" of mine is, without doubt, derogatory, especially in the context in which it was originally made on your forum, where it was most definitely NOT meant as a joke.
However, I really don't want to dwell on that. All I want is to put the past behind us and move on, and I know Anthony does too. So let's give it a go, eh? :)
...so I have changed as well to meet you half way, but if I am personally attacked I will defend myself, I cannot help it.
I appreciate that, but you must learn to differentiate between being genuinely attacked and someone gently taking the piss! I know Anthony very well, and he doesn't have a malicious bone in his body, so you need to lighten up and lower the defence shields a bit, Richard, if this is going to work in the long-term.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:39
Richard, please see my last post!
Also:
Not NVA, but would you not admit that partly the reason why you started this thread was to have a dig at Simon (sq225917) and pfm? Come on, be honest! ;)
I let it slide on this occasion because there were other parts of the discussion which I felt were worthy of the thread remaining.
Marco.
Of course it is as they are a major part of the problem (but to put it in perspective no where near as big a problem as head-fi and the likes). If I didn't think there was a problem why would I have started the thread.
You have to have a thought to get the motivation to operated the keyboard, and you have to have had a stimulus to create the motivation, that is how humans operate. The difference is when someone interjects into a thread with an obvious agenda against the poster, it stands out like a sore thumb. It matter not what the motivation is or if there is past jsutification, it is what it is.
And for Effem. I never throw the first punch, I am trained not to, but if it is thrown at me you end up with your face in the floor or into the nearest wall. Similar principle applies here, and if someone walks away from conflict so will I.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:45
now can we please get back to the subject and away from your personal paranoia of me!:rolleyes:
Anthony,TD...
Then don't interject with an agenda, it is very simple. I am quite happy to be your friend, all you are getting is the mirror put up to you. If you don't make faces you won't get any back. If the face is friendly that is what you will get back.
And for Effem. I never throw the first punch, I am trained not to, but if it is thrown at me you end up with your face in the floor or into the nearest wall. Similar principle applies here, and if someone walks away from conflict so will I.
With all due respect Richard, you should then be practising what you preach. I clearly saw Anthony effectively offering a retraction of his statement TWICE, Marco has also bent over backwards several times in trying to pacify you and make peace, but here you are still "defending" yourself.
By the way, I am not attacking you, I just want this ferkin three ring circus to end so we can get back to discussing flavours of the month as the thread title says, not "Form an orderly queue to savage Mr Dunn" - which it isn't :rolleyes:
Surely a mountain out of a molehill going on here.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:50
Sorry, I really can't remember that. Do you remember where the discussion happened?
Marco.
Search my posts early on, you will find it.
Then don't interject with an agenda, it is very simple. I am quite happy to be your friend, all you are getting is the mirror put up to you. If you don't make faces you won't get any back. If the face is friendly that is what you will get back.
Ok, Anthony can reply for himself, but I don't see him having a problem with that.
Given that this is hopefully the case can you promise me in future to be more tolerant of a little criticism? No-one is perfect, Richard, and certainly not you or I, so learn to embrace your faults, and people will respect you for it :)
Yes?
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:52
Back on topic anyone? :)
Back on topic anyone? :)
Yes please :)
Back on topic anyone? :)
Yes, thank f*ck, but only as soon as you answer my post #72! ;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 14:59
Ok, Anthony can reply for himself, but I don't see him having a problem with that.
Given that this is hopefully the case can you promise me in future to be more tolerant of a little criticism? No-one is perfect, Richard, and certainly not you or I, so learn to embrace your faults, and people will respect you for it :)
Yes?
Marco.
What faults :scratch: I am puuuuuurfect :ner:
Mmmmm... Aye, a perfect daftee, maybe! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I love flavours of the month - because of them my HiFi education has been accelerated well beyond the means of my wallet, though it's sad I can't experience everything (like Jerry)!;)
It was because of Flavours of the month that I first bought a Beresford DAC - I've had three of them now!
Gotham cables were pretty good IIRC - certainly for a tenner. I see the Belkins have been noticed now, but only on AoS it seems.
NVA amps (Jerry again!) - this flavour caused me to question a decision I had already made & revisit the NVA question. I even broke my habit of forum lurking & posted my first thread (it's still in the archive at WW) on whether to buy second-hand or NVA. I had three emails that week from other lurkers who were also interested, but they never posted - so people are reading these internet recommendations with interest.
In fact the only times I ever made a good call without the forums informing my choice was a punt on some TOTR Royd speakers, and my current DAC.
Why people promote a flavour of the month is difficult to judge - I wouldn't ever question someone's motives or accuse them of egotism for that. I love to share something I have direct experience with - it doesn't happen often! The real shills & spammers are easy to spot - someone already alluded to the most notorious case. As for a topic or a product dominating a forum, that only happens if the forum is tiny or the interest is huge. No one person can control that.
Forum chatter & back-chat is the best thing to happen to HiFi in a long time.
I think it would be wise for trade members to avoid childish bickering in public places. Lurking (and maybe not lurking) punters may give products of such individuals a wide birth.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 16:43
I seriously couldn't give toss what your so called punters think about my *private* opinions. They are welcome to give NVA as wide a berth as they want if they are that stupid.
You seem to think I am here because of NVA. If I posted on forums because of NVA I wouldn't post at all, the same as a majority of the industry doesn't. I post as an individual, the only joining with my business world is obviously my products follow my ideas, I would be a real dafty as Marco puts it if it didn't.
I didn't put trade under my name and my business has nothing to do with my opinions.
I used to own a Musical Fidelity product 30 years ago until I met the owner at a show. I formed an impression of him and wouldn't have an MF offering come hell or high water.
There's a lesson for you here and if your ego doesn't permit you to take it on board then good luck to you.
The beauty of flavour of the the months is that 20 or so people may agree how good a product is.
This has to be better than just one reviewer.
I've bought some of the hyped stuff.
Some excellent some ok.
I buy wisely so i never lose to much.
Sometimes get a bit suspicious of cable hypes.
kininigin
20-06-2011, 17:20
Do you think you fall for it, does that make you a mug or just open minded.
I'd never fall for anything like that....wait a second,Technics check,beresford check,croft check,what's flavour of the month speaker wise? ;)
Hey, Darren, you is a flavour of the month bitch! Report to Mistress Melissa later for your weekly spanking! :eyebrows:
:whippin: :whippin: :more: :more:
Marco.
I'd never fall for anything like that....wait a second,Technics check,beresford check,croft check,what's flavour of the month speaker wise? ;)
Haha! Speakers are probably Snell / Audionote J & Ks.
NVA Sound Cords have been flavour of the month on Hifi Wigwam (myself being one of the advocates). I suppose Richard's annoyed at the commercial / dealer input & direct correspondence that can go on, but then 'our' Stan flips that argument on its head too! To be honest I'm finding it difficult to get pissed off at forum-led marketing as long as there's no blatant spamming & genuine advocates are involved.
StanleyB
20-06-2011, 18:44
In my defence I have to point out that I had been trading on eBay for quite some time and offered a no nonsense money back guarantee if my products did not better what was already owned, or if the buyer could find better within two weeks. That was even before the long distance selling rule became law.
In my defence I have to point out that I had been trading on eBay for quite some time and offered a no nonsense money back guarantee if my products did not better what was already owned, or if the buyer could find better within two weeks. That was even before the long distance selling rule became law.
Hi I don't see anything to defend against, but am just pointing out that this sort of stuff goes on for everything and none of it is malicious! If a bunch of people enjoy a device then it's job done. I'm still running a Beresford as one of my main sources, connected with NVA Sound Cords & LS1 speaker cable.
Discovered all via the forums of course.
If it wasn't for forum favourites i'd guess 70 or more % would have a different system.
Reid Malenfant
20-06-2011, 19:19
Frankly i generally take a look at what is being said on what you might call 'flavour of the month' threads & then apply a bit of common sense to the situation.
Take for instance the Belkin interconnect thread :) I didn't jump on the bandwagon straight away, it took a few days. The thing is what swayed it for me is that they are vastly better constructed than standard giveaway cables be it gold plated or not. Price wise they weren't much more expensive, so in that sense it was a bit of a no brainer & i'm sure a system here will ultimately benefit.
On other things i tend to go my own way & go on what my ears & brain are telling me & while opinion may well result in whatever it is being auditioned it quite possibly won't be where the money ends up going. After all, whatever bit of kit it is has got to work with whatever else that is in my system so there is the all important synergy to be taken into account at the end of the day ;)
So i guess what i'm saying is that anyone can shout from the rooftops about how good something is, but i'd listen to it myself before forming any opinion.
you all act like sheep, you wouldn't catch me following a trend or flavour of the month :ner:
now where did i leave my Belkin cables, :scratch:
anthonyTD
20-06-2011, 19:24
you all act like sheep, you wouldn't catch me following a trend or flavour of the month :ner:
now where did i leave my Belkin cables, :scratch:
:lolsign:
kininigin
20-06-2011, 20:34
Hey, Darren, you is a flavour of the month bitch! Report to Mistress Melissa later for your weekly spanking! :eyebrows:
:whippin: :whippin: :more: :more:
Marco.
I've been secretly been waiting for this moment,and to be honest it's the reason i joined this forum....let the spanking commence :eyebrows:
Do i bring my own clamps or is everthing provided? Bring on the pain.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 21:57
NVA Sound Cords have been flavour of the month on Hifi Wigwam (myself being one of the advocates). I suppose Richard's annoyed at the commercial / dealer input & direct correspondence that can go on, but then 'our' Stan flips that argument on its head too!
Did I instigate it or even get involved in it - nah! Nor have I any time NVA has been praised on a forum, apart from when asked a direct question. AFAIAC that is the way it should be. All "congratulations on your good choice and good taste" or similar I find to be in exceedingly bad taste.
My point is all you need in this hi-fi malarky is a pair of open ears and an open mind, why do we have to have the opinion formers and then the sheep barrr barr-ing up behind. But I suppose I am being naive as it happens in all subjects and hobbies, I suppose I am just one of those cantankerous sods who more often than not deliberately does the opposite of what he is told to do.
My point is all you need in this hi-fi malarky is a pair of open ears and an open mind, why do we have to have the opinion formers and then the sheep barrr barr-ing up behind.
I agree with the first part, but are you suggesting we should all just use the gear we like, recommend bugger all, and shut up instead and listen to music?
Sounds great, but then there'd be nothing to talk about and no forum, daftee!
Marco.
Neil McCauley
20-06-2011, 22:03
I suppose I am just one of those cantankerous sods who more often than not deliberately does the opposite of what he is told to do.
Oh come come dear boy. Surely you speak harshly and as if that attitude is a bad thing!
Sincerely
Howard
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 22:10
I agree with the first part, but are you suggesting we should all just use the gear we like, shut up, and listen to music?
Sounds great, but then there'd be nothing to talk about and no forum, daftee!
Marco.
There is still plenty to talk about apart from the continuous hype, it comes to the point where you say to yourself "for fff sake not another bloody cable". Or now "not another bloody DAC" every month it seems there is a new favourite pushing in. Stan the man seems the only one with some longevity.
How about a thread telling us how you like your system set up and what music you listen to while the wife (or perhaps a strange filly) is chastising you in your nappies :eek:
All of that is already on YouTube! :lolsign:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 22:16
Please don't give me a link (shudder)
Reid Malenfant
20-06-2011, 22:19
There is still plenty to talk about apart from the continuous hype, it comes to the point where you say to yourself "for fff sake not another bloody cable". Or now "not another bloody DAC" every month it seems there is a new favourite pushing in. Stan the man seems the only one with some longevity.
How about a thread telling us how you like your system set up and what music you listen to while the wife (or perhaps a strange filly) is chastising you in your nappies :eek:
:scratch: Music type etc shouldn't be an issue, as i understand it you want accuracy from a DAC & all other equipment come to that, anything should treat everything in the same manner... Accurate reproduction i'd have thought was the name of the game.
"Accurate" to what though, precisely? ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
20-06-2011, 22:38
"Accurate" to what though, precisely? ;)
Marco.
Ah, Mr can of worms :eyebrows:
Precisely in a way... I guess i'd say that the more incredible something sounds & the more it takes your breath away that you may well be getting nearer to what was the intension of the original recording.
Unless you happen to be Amy Winesmashed..
After all, even you (Marco) have no reference at the end of the day ;)
jandl100
21-06-2011, 06:28
My point is all you need in this hi-fi malarky is a pair of open ears and an open mind, why do we have to have the opinion formers and then the sheep barrr barr-ing up behind.
You also need the TIME and the OPPORTUNITY to listen to a wide range of kit.
I chose early retirement several years before I discovered the wonderful world of the internet hifi forums, and one of my chosen hobbies with which I happily fill my time is hifi box swapping.
Many folks simply don't have the time to obtain and listen to a wide range of kit (they just want to plonk themselves down in front of the stereo for an hour or so when they get home from a long day at work and when the kids are in bed).
So, many of them look to "opinion formers" (dare I say, like me, and Marco and others here), who do have the time, as a guide as to what to consider for their next "Hifi Hit".
It's not a matter of "sheep barr barr-ing", it's a matter of identifying those who a) have the time to try different things, b) have a wide range of hifi experience c) have proven to have a similar taste in things to yourself* d) have the 'urge' to share their opinions.
_______
* Although not necessarily, there is one Wigwammer I know of who carefully notes what I recommend so he knows what NOT to buy!! :eyebrows:
You also need the TIME and the OPPORTUNITY to listen to a wide range of kit.
I chose early retirement several years before I discovered the wonderful world of the internet hifi forums, and one of my chosen hobbies with which I happily fill my time is hifi box swapping.
Many folks simply don't have the time to obtain and listen to a wide range of kit (they just want to plonk themselves down in front of the stereo for an hour or so when they get home from a long day at work and when the kids are in bed).
So, many of them look to "opinion formers" (dare I say, like me, and Marco and others here), who do have the time, as a guide as to what to consider for their next "Hifi Hit".
It's not a matter of "sheep barr barr-ing", it's a matter of identifying those who a) have the time to try different things, b) have a wide range of hifi experience c) have proven to have a similar taste in things to yourself* d) have the 'urge' to share their opinions.
_______
* Although not necessarily, there is one Wigwammer I know of who carefully notes what I recommend so he knows what NOT to buy!! :eyebrows:
Exactly so - forums, flavours of the month & the listeners behind them are just tools (sorry Jerry;)) to help make an 'informed' decision about where to go next. 'Informed' by what? - see Jerry's post above.
RD's points about needing an open mind & ears are as relevant as always, these are prerequisite.
Neil McCauley
21-06-2011, 08:02
Okay, fine. So which piano is the more accurate – the Steinway or the Bosendorfer?
Stupid question of course that doesn’t warrant consideration, let alone an answer. Unless of course it is useful as a basis for pondering on the well-intentioned but ultimately futile debate about accuracy – within the current meaning of the word.
Only a cretin would fail to recognise that the reproduction of a piano on even the most mediocre of MP3 players is clearly that of a piano. Ergo the representation of that instrument as a piano and not a saxophone is self-evident. On the other hand, a rational investigation of the physics behind why that representation is neither (a) entirely musically credible and for some (b), far from enjoyable is certainly worthy of consideration it seems to me.
Howard
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 08:50
Try this, the acoustic is a bit live - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXtVBJDPs6k&feature=related
This is a Fazioli.
What an utterly astounding piece of music!! Jeez, can that dude play the piano! :eek:
Marco.
Thanks for that! :thumbsup:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 09:50
If you note it is a baby grand not a full grand, but really nice tone and attack, always a difficult balance to achieve.
Awesome Clip.
Both guys are very talented I never seen anybody use slap bass techinique on a cello before
The Grand Wazoo
21-06-2011, 10:04
It's a very impressive display, but there's something not right about it for me. The drum I'm seeing doesn't look like the one that's making the sound I'm hearing.
There is a lot of that going on in the video Chris but you can see and hear these guys can play
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 10:18
I am finding these things because of the TFS, I have got quite a few really good recordings and having the visual as well is nice.
As hi-fi snobs we tend to ignore youtube, yes you have to plough through a load of crap, but at times you come up with silly good recordings.
This one I find fascinating, incredibly simple pop music (which is what pop music should be) done in the bedroom by a couple of kids, but they know their onions recording wise - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vT9TP0hf0Q through good headphone on the laptop it sounds pretty ordinary but through the TFS and the full system the clarity and information is astonishing.
jantheman
21-06-2011, 10:51
Hey, Darren, you is a flavour of the month bitch! Report to Mistress Melissa later for your weekly spanking! :eyebrows:
:whippin: :whippin: :more: :more:
Marco.
Photos pls....
I am finding these things because of the TFS, I have got quite a few really good recordings and having the visual as well is nice.
As hi-fi snobs we tend to ignore youtube, yes you have to plough through a load of crap, but at times you come up with silly good recordings.
This one I find fascinating, incredibly simple pop music (which is what pop music should be) done in the bedroom by a couple of kids, but they know their onions recording wise - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vT9TP0hf0Q through good headphone on the laptop it sounds pretty ordinary but through the TFS and the full system the clarity and information is astonishing.
As storage and download speeds increase it will only get better.
Broken Social Scene have even released a full HD live show on there, ok it's still mp3 sound quality but not bad...
8RPM9MOUN2I
Forum hypes, or flavour of the months. We all see them, and when you see the same thing across all the main forums it must lead us to believe it is some sort of marketing campaign, and yet on the surface it is normal forum members doing the hype.
So what are we suffering from. Over enthusiastic users who just haven't heard enough different things, or trade disguised as normal non trade members.
Also is it a good thing, is it just giving opportunity for unknown product to get a name. Or is it just a different marketing strategy to replace the magazine hype which is losing its credibility. Or is it a bad thing, just creating a turnover blip followed by a lot of second hand sales on ebay
Do you think you fall for it, does that make you a mug or just open minded.
I think it's cute!
Buddies all getting excited about the same thing, kind of like a flock of birds moving together until there's a new leader or a new group breaks off.
It also reflects (and mimics?) a reviewer's style of writing about product, the enthusiasms, the choice of words - a learnt style that people copy to fit in..
Kind of all part of a social game including purposely not going with the crowd.
Still, you do sometimes see the traders in the trade section using this enthusiasm by making big announcements about say a new batch coming in, trying to go along with the current trend - most be frustrating when someone then buys some old kit that betters it..
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 18:27
I think it's cute!
Buddies all getting excited about the same thing, kind of like a flock of birds moving together until there's a new leader or a new group breaks off.
It also reflects (and mimics?) a reviewer's style of writing about product, the enthusiasms, the choice of words - a learnt style that people copy to fit in..
Kind of all part of a social game including purposely not going with the crowd.
Still, you do sometimes see the traders in the trade section using this enthusiasm by making big announcements about say a new batch coming in, trying to go along with the current trend - most be frustrating when someone then buys some old kit that betters it..
It must be linked to human nature otherwise it wouldn't happen. I am just amused / irritated that at the moment it seems to be entirely about cables or DACs and it has seemed that way for a couple of years apart from Jerry's class D jobbie. Now look at all the ones on ebay from China trying to get a bit of the feeding frenzy. I have listened to two or three of them including the JandL100 fave rave and I just shake my head in confusion. AND I wouldn't even have bothered to have listened as what I expected them to do they did, but I was drawn in by the hype.
Given your sonic proclivities, Richard, with your liking of the SPU, M3D, etc, I think you'd LOVE my modded DAS-R1...
Basically, it makes digital sound like the best vinyl! :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 19:02
The other thing about this class D thing that confuses me is Jerry has used and loved NVA in the past, he had a pair of A80s (bought new :eek:) and had them for about two years (pretty near his record) and yet he loves these class D's. If he hated my amps I could dismiss the whole thing easily. So what's going on as I really haven't a clue.
This doesn't mean I am right and Jerry is wrong, it just proves my point about hypes and flavours of the month. I could easily be drawn in if a little less confident in my own ability to hear and think they must be right and join in the feeding frenzy - but to what point.
We are all individuals and with individual personalities and tastes, there is good music and there is good equipment, as there can be a form of consensus. But even then people should make their own choices. That is my point and that is my desire - if you think I want everyone to buy NVA then you have the wrong end of that particular stick. I want everyone to have freedom of choice without the bullshit. Just temper the enthusiasm with a bit of reality, it is only you who has this life changing moment, why impose it on others, just recommend and say "it is my opinion used in this system with this music", play it back down to reality.
'Ere 'ang on a minute guv, I just realised I got infected by the jingoistic frenzy of excitement about XTZ amplification. And I must say now I am glad I did because it is a superb amp.
Underlining that though was a HUGE gamble based on pure hearsay from someone I didn't know at all, which by equal measure could have very easily left me saddled with a real growler I couldn't even give away when it sucked and very empty pockets for good measure.
Not a good reliable system to place faith and trust in is it? :eek:
anthonyTD
21-06-2011, 19:48
The other thing about this class D thing that confuses me is Jerry has used and loved NVA in the past, he had a pair of A80s (bought new :eek:) and had them for about two years (pretty near his record) and yet he loves these class D's. If he hated my amps I could dismiss the whole thing easily. So what's going on as I really haven't a clue.
This doesn't mean I am right and Jerry is wrong, it just proves my point about hypes and flavours of the month. I could easily be drawn in if a little less confident in my own ability to hear and think they must be right and join in the feeding frenzy - but to what point.
We are all individuals and with individual personalities and tastes, there is good music and there is good equipment, as there can be a form of consensus. But even then people should make their own choices. That is my point and that is my desire - if you think I want everyone to buy NVA then you have the wrong end of that particular stick. I want everyone to have freedom of choice without the bullshit. Just temper the enthusiasm with a bit of reality, it is only you who has this life changing moment, why impose it on others,
just recommend and say "it is my opinion used in this system with this music", play it back down to reality.
Fair point!
Anthony,TD...
StanleyB
21-06-2011, 20:00
The other thing about this class D thing that confuses me is Jerry has used and loved NVA in the past, he had a pair of A80s (bought new :eek:) and had them for about two years (pretty near his record) and yet he loves these class D's. If he hated my amps I could dismiss the whole thing easily. So what's going on as I really haven't a clue.
I don't think that Jerry ever mentioned that he fell out of love with any particular piece of equipment he bought. He either liked it, or not. He tends to swap around his system within 6 months on average based on what I can see in his equipment listing. There have been a few exceptions to that. One was the TC-7510 he bought off me, which was probably one of the longest kept pieces of audio equipment in his house.
Hi Richard,
Just temper the enthusiasm with a bit of reality, it is only you who has this life changing moment, why impose it on others, just recommend and say "it is my opinion used in this system with this music", play it back down to reality.
Whilst I understand and share your sentiments to a degree, I think it's also important not to stifle someone's personality or writing style, making it rather bland and matter-of-fact, in the process.
Using myself again as an example, I am extremely passionate about things I like (it's an Italian thing, I guess) and so will in such circumstances write in a very emotive and descriptive way about the products I'm recommending. That's just me, I'm afraid, so I don't want to "play it down to reality", as in doing so that would dilute what makes me, me - if you see what I mean....
And, apart from anything else, I know that there are people who really enjoy the way I'm so passionate and enthusiastic about what I believe in, and the colourful way I express myself when writing about hi-fi - and it is precisely that passion and enthusiasm which often makes them try what I recommend.
Now if you think that's a bad thing or that it should be diluted a little, then I understand, but it's not something that's going to happen, as I will always remain true to who I am.
Furthermore, it is precisely those qualities (passion and enthusiasm), coupled with knowledge and experience, which I love seeing on forums when I read other people's contributions. The more someone waxes lyrical, and portrays their joy about a new piece of equipment they've bought, or a tweak they've done, which has transformed their enjoyment of music, the more I warm to that person and relate to their personal experience.
I like to know what makes people tick as human beings, as well as hi-fi enthusiasts and music lovers, so I enjoy seeing some personality shining through in what people write on forums, and some 'meat on the bone'. One of my pet hates on forums is people who always just post innocuous two or three sentence replies during discussions, almost as if they're too scared to let go and give away something about themselves.
So if you want to stifle individuality and artistic expression in order "play it back down to reality", then I'm afraid we're on two different planets. As far as I'm concerned, long live passion and enthusiasm, and individual writing styles. It's one of the reasons I enjoy reading Ken Kessler's musings in HFN, as opposed to the bland, passionless scribbles of others - precisely because they are colourful and entertaining! He writes from the heart, and that's something I admire and indeed also do myself.
And as for "just recommend and say it is my opinion used in this system with this music", surely that's taken for granted on everyone's posts, or should what's written be littered everywhere with 'IME', 'IMO', 'IMHO', etc, in order to make what should be the obvious, more obvious? :scratch:
Marco.
It's a very impressive display, but there's something not right about it for me. The drum I'm seeing doesn't look like the one that's making the sound I'm hearing.
And where are the strings? What you see and what you hear are two different things.
No sign of microphones either.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 20:54
Hi Richard,
Whilst I understand and share your sentiments to a degree, I think it's also important not to stifle someone's personality or writing style, making it rather bland and matter-of-fact, in the process.
Using myself again as an example, I am extremely passionate about things I like (it's an Italian thing, I guess) and so will in such circumstances write in a very emotive and descriptive way about the products I'm recommending. That's just me, I'm afraid, so I don't want to "play it down to reality", as in doing so that would dilute what makes me, me - if you see what I mean....
And, apart from anything else, I know that there are people who really enjoy the way I'm so passionate and enthusiastic about what I believe in, and the colourful way I express myself when writing about hi-fi - and it is precisely that passion and enthusiasm which often makes them try what I recommend.
Now if you think that's a bad thing or that it should be diluted a little, then I understand, but it's not something that's going to happen, as I will always remain true to who I am.
Furthermore, it is precisely those qualities (passion and enthusiasm), coupled with knowledge and experience, which I love seeing on forums when I read other people's contributions. The more someone waxes lyrical, and portrays their joy about a new piece of equipment they've bought, or a tweak they've done, which has transformed their enjoyment of music, the more I warm to that person and relate to their personal experience.
I like to know what makes people tick as human beings, as well as hi-fi enthusiasts and music lovers, so I enjoy seeing some personality shining through in what people write on forums, and some 'meat on the bone'. One of my pet hates on forums is people who always just post innocuous two or three sentence replies during discussions, almost as if they're too scared to let go and give away something about themselves.
So if you want to stifle individuality and artistic expression in order "play it back down to reality", then I'm afraid we're on two different planets. As far as I'm concerned, long live passion and enthusiasm, and individual writing styles. It's one of the reasons I enjoy reading Ken Kessler's musings in HFN, as opposed to the bland, passionless scribbles of others - precisely because they are colourful and entertaining!
And as for "just recommend and say it is my opinion used in this system with this music", surely that's taken for granted on everyone's posts, or should what's written be littered everywhere with 'IME', 'IMO', 'IMHO', etc, in order to make what should be the obvious, more obvious? :scratch:
Marco.
Ditto in understanding, but you seem to have taken one sentence out of context. Look at how it applies to the argument being made. There is nothing wrong with waxing lyrically I don't object, my point is place it in context, in reality for the person who is reading it. Some people love having a ring through their nose and pulled around the same as some people like wearing nappies and have their bottoms smacked, but does that make it normal :ner:
I wax lyrically many times, I did it over the PL-71, I did it over the SPU. I NEVER do it publically about products I design as that is not my job that is the job of my customers if they wish to. BUT in none of my waxings have I told people what to do other than use their own ears and their own brains. I have never created a flavour of the month nor have I wanted to, and if it happened I would dampen it straight away. People can see choice as a pleasure or as a chore, for me it is a pleasure.
Covenant
21-06-2011, 21:30
Personally I love it when someone gets excited about a product that has transfomed their system. Often I just have a chuckle and move on and sometimes I get swept up in the general enthusiasm. This is a hobby and its supposed to be FUN!
BUT in none of my waxings have I told people what to do other than use their own ears and their own brains. I have never created a flavour of the month nor have I wanted to, and if it happened I would dampen it straight away.
Me too, and I've never told people what to do either. All I do is report my findings and express my opinion, and then allow others to make up their own minds.
So I don't really get what we're arguing about... :scratch:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 22:06
Me too, and I've never told people what to do either. All I do is report my findings and express my opinion, and then allow others to make up their own minds.
So I don't really get what we're arguing about... :scratch:
Marco.
We aren't, we are having a discussion, we are communicating. You seem to think this thread is aimed at you (and you talk about me prejudging people). At times I don't think you think about the consequences of your actions, you operate by instinct, or if you want by heart. Sometimes that makes you a naughty boy :lol: but most of the time you provide means of pleasure or entertainment in your posts for members which is an asset not a liability.
Go back to my first post, I don't know where the fences need to be put if anywhere, I am creating a debate so people think about it.
Oh, I totally agree, so let's substitute the word "argument" for "debate", as there is nothing nasty about our current exchange of views :)
It's not that I think this thread is all about me, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that some of the points you're making have derived from what you've observed of my contributions on forums - be honest! ;)
And that's fine, as it now gives me the opportunity to explain why I do what I do, which is much easier now that we are living on the same webspace...
Having said all that, I still don't really get what you meant by your earlier remark of:
it is only you who has this life changing moment, why impose it on others, just recommend and say it is my opinion used in this system with this music, play it back down to reality...
Or rather more specifically, what you think is lacking in others and my forum contributions, in order to conform to that ideal.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 22:56
Oh, I totally agree, so let's substitute the word "argument" for "debate", as there is nothing nasty about our current exchange of views :)
It's not that I think this thread is all about me, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that some of the points you're making have derived from what you've observed of my contributions on forums - be honest! ;)
And that's fine, as it now gives me the opportunity to explain why I do what I do, which is much easier now that we are living on the same webspace...
Having said all that, I still don't really get what you meant by your earlier remark of:
Or rather more specifically, what you think is lacking in others and my forum contributions, in order to conform to that ideal.
Marco.
You doesn't mean you, it is a general you, meaning the membership or who amoungst them it applies to.
Seriously Marco none of this thread has been about you. The nearest you have come to creating a FOTM is the 1210, but it is a dead product so how can this be a hype. I have strong disagreements with you sometimes when you go off on absolutes like you used to with SUTs. Forget about me teasing you about strutting your balcony showing of your medals and posing, of course it was a caricature even though a case could be made for some truth init ;) it was warfare :ner: now we have a truce and hopefully peace treaty is signed and exchange of consuls is imminent :)
Hypes and FOTM are created either for commercial reasons or for ego reasons about existing marketed products. Now ego is not all bad the motivation can be philanthropic, but it is still "look how clever I am to have discovered it". It is artificial and out of balance which is why they always appear as a spike on ebay a couple of months later.
I just thought it should be discussed as it irritates me sometimes and amuses me on others. But what I find astonishing and was the motive originally for starting the thread was hundred of pages on PFM about some uk designed Chinese made DAC, *that seems to be not even in production* now superseded as FOTM by something called the Young DAC, and yet the other FUD still carries on.
So what gives, why is it always lately (apart from Jerry's class D) about cables and DACs, and are we any better off than with the previous FOTM or the one before that or the one before that, is the old hat still good (well I know you think so as you have a very old DAC hat), so why all the bollocks :scratch:
jandl100
21-06-2011, 23:02
The other thing about this class D thing that confuses me is Jerry has used and loved NVA in the past, he had a pair of A80s (bought new :eek:) and had them for about two years (pretty near his record) and yet he loves these class D's.
I think I had the A80's for about 7 or 8 months actually. ;)
If he hated my amps I could dismiss the whole thing easily. So what's going on as I really haven't a clue.
I enjoyed your amps very much indeedy.
But I am not restricted to liking one flavour of audio.
Are NVA amps perfect? No.
Do other amps have different balance of virtues? Yes.
I can, and do, enjoy a lot of sonic flavours.
It's what my hobby of boxswapping is all about. :)
This doesn't mean I am right and Jerry is wrong
That's true.
, it just proves my point about hypes and flavours of the month.
Ah, no it doesn't - it is there that we differ.
As far as I am concerned, it's about different flavours, not different flavours of the month (i.e. fads).
:cool:
Spectral Morn
21-06-2011, 23:19
I've been secretly been waiting for this moment,and to be honest it's the reason i joined this forum....let the spanking commence :eyebrows:
Do i bring my own clamps or is everthing provided? Bring on the pain.
I suspect Marco is just a tease and will disappoint you ;) :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
21-06-2011, 23:21
I think I had the A80's for about 7 or 8 months actually. ;)
I enjoyed your amps very much indeedy.
But I am not restricted to liking one flavour of audio.
Are NVA amps perfect? No.
Do other amps have different balance of virtues? Yes.
I can, and do, enjoy a lot of sonic flavours.
It's what my hobby of boxswapping is all about. :)
:cool:
It felt like longer. You don't need to explain I understand what turns you on.
It is nothing to do with perfect this and perfect that, I was seriously astounded by the band wagon you created with the class D. I have worked with the circuit long before it became encapsulated, even back to the Sinclair Neoteric in about 1970 which was the first commercial class D. I know the strengths and faults and it is a great circuit for small cheapo things and is behind most of the personal digital musical hardware being used, but serious hi-fi, not in my opinion, nearest it gets is in some AV applications. So I tried a couple including your fave rave and I was seriously underwhelmed as I expected to be. So my point was how can you like both, I obviously love the 80s and I dislike the D, so am I missing something as you like both. Is it a system synergy thing, in which case should it have become a FOTM. It seems people are selling them now who were in the first intake, the FOTM is dying.
What you got up your sleeve next Jerry.
I have strong disagreements with you sometimes when you go off on absolutes like you used to with SUTs.
Ah, you see, there is where it boils down to a simple matter of perception. You, for whatever reason, saw only "absolutes", when in reality, there was simply personal opinion.
As I've said many times before, unless specifically stated otherwise on forums, for example someone writing a statement such as this:
"It is an unquestionable fact, in all circumstances, that SUTs reproduce music with MC cartridges better than active MC phono stages", which I've never said, then it should be automatically presumed that the person is only expressing his or her opinion, not an absolute.
Like I said earlier, must people's posts have 'IMO' and 'IMHO' scribbled everywhere in order to convey that fact? It would be rather untidy, would it not? Or how would you suggest that things are done?
Forget about me teasing you about strutting your balcony showing of your medals and posing, of course it was a caricature even though a case could be made for some truth init ;)
I always meant to tell you that I used to piss myself laughing when you went on about stuff like that and the "Il Duce" thing... So I'm not sure if it was intended to annoy me, but if so, then it failed :eyebrows:
Anyway, we can laugh about it now, as thankfully, I think we've both moved on!
Marco.
jandl100
22-06-2011, 06:41
It is nothing to do with perfect this and perfect that, I was seriously astounded by the band wagon you created with the class D. ..... I know the strengths and faults and it is a great circuit for small cheapo things .... but serious hi-fi, not in my opinion, ... So I tried a couple including your fave rave and I was seriously underwhelmed as I expected to be.
So my point was how can you like both, I obviously love the 80s and I dislike the D, so am I missing something as you like both. Is it a system synergy thing, in which case should it have become a FOTM.
Wheeeee .... :scratch::)
1. Some folks hear these things differently.
I played the Mini-T for a short time at the Scalford Show this year thru the Tannoy Monitor Golds I was using, mainly at the request of the audio designer friend of Jonboy who was curious about them and noticed the Mini-T sitting on the window sill.
Both were astounded - I mean genuinely astounded ... the audio designer guy even went to check the wiring to make sure I wasn't playing a trick and my £2k Unico amp was still playing ... he came back to listen some more shaking his head in amazement. Jon thought it so good that he got on his mobile there and then and ordered a Mini-T on the spot. And his subsequent reports of the sound he obtains from it are very positive indeed.
Many others here and on the Wam are equally pleased with their purchases.
2. The synergy thing ...
Some, like you, Richard, don't "get it".
Synergy? - a genuine dislike for the sound?
Personally, I suspect a bit of both!
I've heard it sound great in some systems, and not so good in others. That's synergy for sure. But some folks just don't like the class D sound - I've heard quite a few different implementations of the class D amps now, at all power levels from 8wpc to 400wpc, and I certainly think that there is a distinctive "class D sound". So naturally, some will like it and some won't.
3. Should the Mini-T (and other chip amps) have been a FOTM?
I strongly believe that there are enough folks who like them that it was justified.
Nothing is great to everyone. You can't please all the folks all the time.
Come on fess up Jerry, it is the sound of the doorbell ringing when the parcel arrives with your new toy that gets yer rocks off :eyebrows:
C'mon boys, let's all send Jerry a brick by courier to stop him getting withdrawal symptoms :D
I rather dislike this patronising assumption that certain forum members set a FOTM agenda, and the rest of us follow like sheep...
Perhaps we are capable of making our own decisions based on the information provided by fellow trusted (based on experience) forum members.
An item might be flavour of the month, week, or even day, particularly if you take into account that a short term buying opportunity actually exists now...eg the belkin cables at bargain prices, which will run out eventually...thanks to all the guys who alerted me to these.
The Mini-T and the Bersford DACs fall into another category, these are items that perform particularly well at a very good price point, and are not widely advertised elsewhere. Quite frankly I like to be informed about such things, particularly as I was in the market for building budget secondary systems at the time.
I'm more than happy to pass on my success stories to other people too, where I feel I can add value. It's up to them if they take it or not, as it is mine reciprocally.
People use this forum in different ways, for me it's sharing tips advice and experience...for others it seems like Hi-Fi 'top trumps', and endless flappings about 'subjectivism' v 'objectivism'...whatever floats your boat.
I'm big enough to read between the lines :)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 08:52
I'm big enough to read between the lines :)
And what do you read?
Rare Bird
22-06-2011, 08:57
:rolleyes:
aquapiranha
22-06-2011, 09:04
I have been a fan of Tripath amps for years since owning a Trends TA10.1 so I do not see it as a 'flavour of the month' thing, rather as a fellow forum member hearing something new, liking it and sharing his experiences. With regard to the amp, I have owned various valve amd SS amps too and I have found that different amps come into favour in different systems (most noticeable with different types of loudspeaker).
I like to be informed about new products, and to hear about others' experiences of them.
I rather dislike this patronising assumption that certain forum members set a FOTM agenda, and the rest of us follow like sheep...
Perhaps we are capable of making our own decisions based on the information provided by fellow trusted (based on experience) forum members.
An item might be flavour of the month, week, or even day, particularly if you take into account that a short term buying opportunity actually exists now...eg the belkin cables at bargain prices, which will run out eventually...thanks to all the guys who alerted me to these.
The Mini-T and the Bersford DACs fall into another category, these are items that perform particularly well at a very good price point, and are not widely advertised elsewhere. Quite frankly I like to be informed about such things, particularly as I was in the market for building budget secondary systems at the time.
I'm more than happy to pass on my success stories to other people too, where I feel I can add value. It's up to them if they take it or not, as it is mine reciprocally.
:clap: :clap:
Marco.
If anyone is over hyping a product then they should also be responsible for their actions, so the next time everyone buys said over hyped product, they all send that person the bill if it woofs.
That'll put an end to it :lolsign:
Indeed. We could also create a 'name & shame' section for that very purpose, under the title of "Arsehole Reccos - see who was guilty"! :eyebrows:
Marco.
jandl100
22-06-2011, 09:54
If anyone is over hyping a product then they should also be responsible for their actions, so the next time everyone buys said over hyped product, they all send that person the bill if it woofs.
That'll put an end to it :lolsign:
Nah - that'll only work if I get a commission from the folks who like the kit as well as a bill from those who don't! :eyebrows:
I reckon with the Mini-T, Hitachi & Gotham cables, Beresford DAC, 949person phonostages and the NVA gear that I've "hyped up" on the forums I'll be in profit. :lol:
I reckon with the Mini-T, Hitachi & Gotham cables, Beresford DAC, 949person phonostages and the NVA gear that I've "hyped up" on the forums I'll be in profit. :lol:
Aha, so that's where I need to send this bill to for all that kit then :lol:
Lets not get nasty and question/doubt peoples motives for posting about this gear - I for one think it would be a shame if we had to start diplomatically phrasing our posts because someone else might jump down or throats. The definition 'flavour of the month' is an artificial concept anyway - the nature of forums and those who participate is far more organic. This is part of what forums fun & informative.
I had no agenda when I wrote an Internet review of the amplifier I bought, I just wanted to share my experience & the joy of it all. Viva la 'FOTM'!
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 10:30
I think in many ways we are picking on Jerry unfairly, lets face he is unique to be in the position to have the time and the money to do what he does, and he obviously enjoys it. OK so now people are selling the D's they bought, but it is little dosh, no one is hurt by it. I am more concerned by what looks on the surface like a member hype but is fed or originated by the person who makes the dosh, Jerry makes no dosh.
The problem is you have difficulty proving it, and apart from some suspicions on techy bits nothing I see here raises my aerial. Where as at PFM, at Chews, and especially at the likes of Head-Fi and AV Forums, I see it. In fact the worst protagonist at PFM I haven't even mentioned as I am avoiding naming him as Marco prefers I make no mention of him.
As I say this is not so much about Marco and Jerry, they are enthusiasts, and if criticised then it can only be for being maybe too enthusiastic.
I think in many ways we are picking on Jerry unfairly,
Jerry knows me well enough to know I am only yankin' his chain. I have bought one or two of his "discoveries" and not been disappointed
griffo104
22-06-2011, 10:45
there will always be flavours of the month on forums and the sheep will follow and end up in their own little clique. I don't frequent a certain other forum as often anymore as a group of it's members have started to border on bullying to people, especially innocent newbies unaware of the schoolyard rules.
However, I will stick up for someone such as Jerry, whose adventures in the world of hifi I find both entertaining and educational. I've used some of bargain kit Jerry has raved about, Gotham for instance, and it still resides in my syste to this day, I've also enjoyed a bit of cable swapping with him which is all part of the fun of hifi and what forums should really be about.
As for his adventures with the mini-T, even though not my pint of beer, I sent a link to his warblings about it to a friend looking for a cheap, small amp that would drive a nice pair of proper bookshelf speakers, driven by an ipod for his teenage kids system. He, quite rightly, thought that most ipod docs aimed at the silly teenager are frankly, utter dross. After reading Jerry's comments he went and bought one and his kid loves it, tiny comapct little ipod system for peanuts that blows most of the dross aimed at them away.
So some of this hype does a very good job and I've also read the abuse aimed at Jerry for his innocent noodlings in to the joys of hifi, usually by the numnuts who are busy waiting to be told what is and isn't good.
there is no doubt flavour of the month is out there, some started by sneaky manufacturers, some by people innocently who suddenly realise there's a load of foolish sheep just waiting to be told how and what to listen for, and some deserving some attention
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 10:58
there will always be flavours of the month on forums and the sheep will follow and end up in their own little clique. I don't frequent a certain other forum as often anymore as a group of it's members have started to border on bullying to people, especially innocent newbies unaware of the schoolyard rules.
However, I will stick up for someone such as Jerry, whose adventures in the world of hifi I find both entertaining and educational. I've used some of bargain kit Jerry has raved about, Gotham for instance, and it still resides in my syste to this day, I've also enjoyed a bit of cable swapping with him which is all part of the fun of hifi and what forums should really be about.
As for his adventures with the mini-T, even though not my pint of beer, I sent a link to his warblings about it to a friend looking for a cheap, small amp that would drive a nice pair of proper bookshelf speakers, driven by an ipod for his teenage kids system. He, quite rightly, thought that most ipod docs aimed at the silly teenager are frankly, utter dross. After reading Jerry's comments he went and bought one and his kid loves it, tiny comapct little ipod system for peanuts that blows most of the dross aimed at them away.
So some of this hype does a very good job and I've also read the abuse aimed at Jerry for his innocent noodlings in to the joys of hifi, usually by the numnuts who are busy waiting to be told what is and isn't good.
there is no doubt flavour of the month is out there, some started by sneaky manufacturers, some by people innocently who suddenly realise there's a load of foolish sheep just waiting to be told how and what to listen for, and some deserving some attention
20 or 30 years ago the industry was run and dominated by FOTM due to reviewers and magazines. One of these FUD ended up virtually controlling the industry for that period - the so called flat earth - or for me the Linn / Naim brainwash bollocks. So we are in a much better place now that is for certain.
Well I can't understand it myself - for those who are wondering I am a mod at 'Chews ( or AudioChews ) and I haven't seen any untoward promotion of any gear. We have three designers of which two post, and they are welcome to discuss their approach to hifi as audiophiles - which usually ends up being a subjective approach. We have a dealer who posts freely as well, so long as there is no blatant self promotion. We see no harm in allowing freedom of speech & expression on the definite caveat that people and their views must be shown respect.
If there is a problem with AudioChews I would be interested in having it pointed out. I'm not spoiling for a fight, but I don't see a problem. AFAIC there are just a bunch of nice people chatting about gear & music. Am I alone in seeing this as a good thing?
griffo104
22-06-2011, 11:13
20 or 30 years ago the industry was run and dominated by FOTM due to reviewers and magazines. One of these FUD ended up virtually controlling the industry for that period - the so called flat earth - or for me the Linn / Naim brainwash bollocks. So we are in a much better place now that is for certain.
I'm too young to remember that flat earth malarkey but I do have a Linn system and I've enjoyed it for many years.
However a year or so ago I decided to put a 2nd system together for my 2nd residence in Southend.
One of the components I ended up picking up was a pair of Totem speakers with metal dome tweeters. Now a couple of years ago I would have not even contemplated them as I always though metal dome tweeters were 'bright'
Now a year later I find them open and airy and with tremendous high end detail which helps open up the sonic picture.
We can change and it's only through experience and mistakes that we sometimes open up our ears to a different sonic signature that we looked down upon years earlier.
Of course I went out and listened to these subsequent components for my 2nd system and didn't ask for any help on a hifi forum :eyebrows:
I can also recall a rather cheap passive NVA pre-amp blowing the socks of a silly expensive Audio Note pre-amp in the context of a pair of class D amps in a bake off I attended a couple of years ago. So it can take all sort of strange combos some times.
At the moment I still struggle with SUTs. I fell for this after forum hype and having tried a couple I still far prefer an active stage. again another bake-off highlighted the differences to me between a SUT/Valve phono and an active stage. The SUTs cost me a bit of money but it meant that it proved to me that I had the right choices for me. I doubt an SUT will ever grace either of my systems again.
Hi Griffo,
Nice to see you back. How's it going, dude? :)
Marco.
griffo104
22-06-2011, 11:35
Hi Griffo,
Nice to see you back. How's it going, dude? :)
Marco.
Not too bad :)
Nice one. If you're pissed off with some other forums, then hang around here, as I always enjoy your contributions - even if we don't agree on SUTs :eyebrows:
Marco.
P.S Oh, do me a favour, dude, and add your real first name and approx geographical location to your profile, as this is now required of all members - churz! :cool:
griffo104
22-06-2011, 11:49
I'm sure there are good SUTs out there but at a cost that makes them prohibitive against a good well designed active stage.
griffo104
22-06-2011, 11:52
P.S Oh, do me a favour, dude, and add your real first name and approx geographical location to your profile, as this is now required of all members - churz! :cool:
Tis done but the only person who calls me by my first name is my Mum :)
I'm sure there are good SUTs out there but at a cost that makes them prohibitive against a good well designed active stage.
Absolutely, but I guess it depends on what you mean by costly... I get superb results with my A23 (SPU) SUT, in conjunction with the valve MM stage in my Croft preamp, using an SPU Classic GM cartridge, which it is specifically designed to match.
The SUT cost £550, which is not an inconsiderable sum, but hardly mortgage money. I have heard no active MC stage, so far, which gets close to the magical sound I achieve with the Croft/A23 combo.
The situation was identical when I had my DL-103SA/A23 (103) SUT. For me, it's more about synergy between components and systems, than any notion of one solution being 'superior' to another.
Also, bear in mind that you and I have very different tastes in cartridges... I wouldn't use a Lyra, for example, if it were given to me as a gift! ;)
Marco.
P.S Cheers, for filling in the relevant info. S'ok, we'll stick with Griffo :)
griffo104
22-06-2011, 12:05
Absolutely, but I guess it depends on what you mean by costly... I get superb results with my A23 SPU SUT, in conjunction with the valve MM stage in my Croft preamp, using an SPU Classic GM cartridge, which it is specifically designed to match.
The SUT cost £550, which is not an inconsiderable sum, but hardly mortgage money. I have heard no active MC stage, so far, which gets close to the magical sound I achieve with the Croft/A23 combo.
The situation was identical when I had my DL-103SA/A23 103 SUT. For me, it's more about synergy between components and systems, than any notion of one solution being 'superior' to another.
Also, bear in mind that you and I have very different tastes in cartridges... I wouldn't use a Lyra, for example, if it were given to me as a gift! ;)
Marco.
P.S Cheers, for filling in the relevant info. S'ok, we'll stick with Griffo :)
It is great being so different though. the more I hear Lyra the more I appreciate their strenghts. However, I also still have the Denon DL301ii and a Goldrin Elite. All 3 carts get regular use as I find all have strengths and weaknesses.
I'm very well aware of the A23, although I haven't actually heard that one. the last combo i heard was a tribute SUT with a Puresound P10 and although it was a nice sound going back to a Whest showed how much more infor was getting through the system
Lol - you see now that's very interesting, because Martin T and I achieved the opposite results in his system, using his Whest phono stage....
Before I arrived with my A23 SUT, Martin, very much a solid-state type of chap, believed that active MC was the way with his (then) AT-33PTG cartridge.
However, once he'd heard my (then) DL103SA/A23 combo, through his system, he was so gob-smacked at how good it sounded in a modded Techy very similar to his, that he wanted to hear what his AT sounded like through the A23 SUT, rather than it going through the Whest MC stage.
So we whacked the Whest on MM input, connected the A23, and played the same music again, using his AT cartridge. Well, to cut a long story short, he was so impressed at what he heard, that he looked out his old CineMag SUT, which had been lying unloved in his spares box for years.
When he tried that, it was so comprehensively better than the Whest on MC mode, that ever since then he used the CineMag SUT with his AT cartridge, and only recently has spent a considerable sum of money on a Choir-Hashimoto SUT-H7, and he's now getting the best sound he's ever heard from vinyl. Martin is therefore now a total SUT convert :)
So it just shows how any form of absolutism can very easily lead you down the wrong path...... Therefore, the moral of the story is always retain an open-mind and be prepared to reconsider your prejudices! ;)
Marco.
griffo104
22-06-2011, 13:35
Absolutely spot on. We all hear differences but for me adding an SUT in to the mix is another box to go through and soanother link in the chain.
The Tribute/P10 sounded almost shut in compared to the WHEST on it's own. I'm not sure whether the SUT or phono was responsoble for this as we never tried SUT/Active stage running in MM.
What surprised me most reagrding this was how much more high level info was being passed through when the active stage was put in place, transients, etc.. were more realistic, imo, of course.
Both analogue step ups at the time were going through a valve pre-amp (a Croft) and in to an ECS solid state chunk of heft.
Even though Lyra do make a SUT (at about £2k) I've always found Lyra better with an active stage. Just my experience of course.
However, I did quite like the Icon audio phonostage which does use an SUT internally for the MC stage rather than going active.
In the case of SUT I find sometimes there's a problem taking the 'nice' sound against the full sound of what the active can give you.
Yep, totally agree!
In the case of SUT I find sometimes there's a problem taking the 'nice' sound against the full sound of what the active can give you.
No doubt that's sometimes the case, but I can assure you that neither Martin nor I use an SUT to obtain a "nice" sound, or anything other than what to our ears sounds 'accurate'... What you describe is a little bit stereotypical, and precisely the opposite of what we like! :)
Both of our experiences to date clearly indicate that using a quality SUT gives music greater 'attack' and faster transients, as well as the usual things one would perhaps expect, such as a broader tonal palette and greater dynamic contrast/shading, and in comparison, find that active MC stages sound rather 'flat', 2-D, and tonally 'grey'.
The detrimental effect of adding an extra box and cables is also somewhat of a red herring. I'm all for having the shortest signal path possible, but sometimes an extra box is needed to get nearer the truth...
However, like we both agree, experiences will vary, and there are definitely NO absolutes!! :cool:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 14:17
Well I played with SUTs back in the 70's and 80's. 70's because I had no choice as solid state was not quiet enough back then, and 80's as a reference when I was putting together the original version of the circuit I use now. The SUTs I used were massive and extremely valuable (which pissed me off as they were ultimately stolen in a break in) and came from the demo studio at EMI house Cambridge Sq, London where my brother in law worked. They were mic transformers and would certainly outperform in my opinion anything you could buy now, they were encapsulated in big metal boxes and weighed about 2kg each. A good SUT is lots of high quality steel plate and lots of high quality copper or silver in massive coils to try and counteract the lossy nature of the beasts. That means heavy and means good ones cost an arm and a leg.
Well my new design of active in the early 80s was designed to be better than it and it was. Since then I haven't bothered with them apart from to own an emergency pair of Ortofon T5 used for sound checking MM stages as I had a Stilton OC9 mc back then in the NVA Senior TT.
Since then I have had I should coco's Audio Note (silly priced) SUT here for a bake-off two years ago and it thoroughly underwhelmed me, and hummed as most of them seem to in my experience.
I just don't see the point unless there is a synergy with someones valve system or you insist on using a valve phono stage in which case you have no choice it has to be a SUT.
I just don't see the point unless there is a synergy with someones valve system or you insist on using a valve phono stage in which case you have no choice it has to be a SUT.
There is a SS option for valve phono stages, the Hagerman Piccolo. it works well and can be tweaked for your personal taste, mainly swapping coupling caps.
griffo104
22-06-2011, 14:45
Yep, totally agree!
No doubt that's sometimes the case, but I can assure you that neither Martin nor I use an SUT to obtain a "nice" sound, or anything other than what to our ears sounds 'accurate'... What you describe is a little bit stereotypical, and precisely the opposite of what we like! :)
Both of our experiences to date clearly indicate that using a quality SUT gives music greater 'attack' and faster transients, as well as the usual things one would perhaps expect, such as a broader tonal palette and greater dynamic contrast/shading, and in comparison, find that active MC stages sound rather 'flat', 2-D, and tonally 'grey'.
The detrimental effect of adding an extra box and cables is also somewhat of a red herring. I'm all for having the shortest signal path possible, but sometimes an extra box is needed to get nearer the truth...
However, like we both agree, experiences will vary, and there are definitely NO absolutes!! :cool:
Marco.
I would agree with quite alot of what you say there. there's no doubt that I've heard a wider tonal palette when I have heard them and t be honest I would say it can give a more easier flow to the sound.
I have yet to hear one blow me away from a transient point of view though and that's where I think our experiences differ greatly but let's put this in to context - all systems are different to a degree and what hear subsequently differs due to that. We pick our choices and enjoy them.
As mentioned above as well there have been cases where either the SUT or valve phono have brought microphony and related noise to the game and for me it's happened with too much expensive equipment which for the price should be better built, Audio Note being a culprit here from my own listening experiences.
I can understand why some enjoy them for their strengths but for me it's distortion I don't believe should be there at the prices charged.
there is a belief that valve means doing things the old way and yet companies such as VTL and Audio Research can still do the valve thing but bring their technology bang up to date and bring some of the benefits of modern technology and thinking to game - and in some cases do it cheaper.
Back to Gerrys comment about my experience with the T amp, I read a lot of things about them on various forums but wanted to wait until I heard one for myself so I did not jump in feet first because of it being FOTM , my first impression was it genuinely blew me away for what it did at the price but having it in my own system I could't live with it full time and have now sold it on but having said that I'm still going to give them another go.
so in my eyes I didn't follow the sheep, the forums just brought this technology to my interest and to seek it out.
surely that's what forums are for to make people aware of new and sometimes older products that shine and to pass on the info, but all is of course down to IMHO:cool:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 18:34
That's what all the sheep say.
I have seen the same said about every product in every hype and FOTM. We all convince ourselves it is just us and our outstanding perception and ability to choice. I am sure in a flock of sheep all of them think they are going because they want to and all the others are just following them - baaa.
Sheep no, Sheep shagger maybe ;)
I believe that also pretty much applies to the world outwith hi-fi circles Richard.
Right from the days when the Sony Walkman when it was the most "must have" toy for the masses accompanied by the now familiar headlong clamour to buy one and I reckon that was a milestone product that the masses felt rather inferior by not owning one. Since then there has been a long list of technology titbits that keep those hungry donkeys chasing after that elusive magic carrot going round the treadmill and there is as much if not MORE clamouring for the latest iPad by those who cannot seem to shake that hook out of their mouths.
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 19:28
That's what all the sheep say.
I think you could probably use that to reply to just about anyones comments in this thread if you chose to. I'd like to understand exactly what you mean by saying this in the context of what Jon said, would you be so kind as to expand on your statement :)
I have seen the same said about every product in every hype and FOTM. We all convince ourselves it is just us and our outstanding perception and ability to choice. I am sure in a flock of sheep all of them think they are going because they want to and all the others are just following them - baaa.
Every product? Are you refering to every hifi product out there? If so i don't know how you find the time to eat your breakfast, let alone build your amplifiers Richard ;) By the way, even though you have refered to me as "that other one" on another thread, you'll notice that i'm taking no offence!
I think you need to be realistic, if people didn't chirp up about how they are enjoying their new bit of kit etc there would be no place for hifi forums at all. I'm just wondering if this is where you are ultimately heading for..
If you don't agree that you'd like people to stop talikng about their new kit then what the heck is all this about?
I'm fascinated simply because i have a system with no AoS FOTM kit, no Beresford Caiman, no Technics 1210 etc, I'm not even using the infamous Belkin interconnects in this system, so am i a sheep to & if so why is that :cool:
Right from the days when the Sony Walkman when it was the most "must have" toy for the masses accompanied by the now familiar headlong clamour to buy one and I reckon that was a milestone product that the masses felt rather inferior by not owning one. Since then there has been a long list of technology titbits that keep those hungry donkeys chasing after that elusive magic carrot going round the treadmill and there is as much if not MORE clamouring for the latest iPad by those who cannot seem to shake that hook out of their mouths.
Exactly. What Richard is defining is merely human nature; not some disease exclusive to forums.
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 19:34
Exactly. What Richard is defining is merely human nature; not some disease exclusive to forums.
Marco.
Yes, i'd have probably said so & yet we are all different thankfully :eyebrows:
I think you could probably use that to reply to just about anyones comments in this thread if you chose to. I'd like to understand exactly what you mean by saying this in the context of what Jon said, would you be so kind as to expand on your statement :)
Richard can correct me if I'm wrong, Mark, but I think he was trying to be ironic ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 19:43
Maybe he ought to start using a few emotes so we know where he's coming from then ;)
Not being funny or anything but i took it as it was written.
Not being funny or anything but i took it as it was written.
I read as it being all a load of Baaalocks
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 19:49
:lolsign: Love the avy Jon :eyebrows:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 19:51
:baa:
:scratch:
:mental:
:wave:
all's fair in love and sheep at the end of the day
Cool. Can I bagsie a go at your back end next, big baaaaaaaaaaah? :goodfriends:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
22-06-2011, 20:00
Sheep no, Sheep shagger maybe ;)
But they are always covered in mud and their own sh1t
I have a strong preference for snowths but I can't seem to find any :( so cute are they real - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM89T74MPnE&feature=related
I have a strong preference for snowths but I can't seem to find any :( so cute are they real - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM89T74MPnE&feature=related
Now those lips give me a stiring in my pants
jandl100
23-06-2011, 06:01
NVA equipment seems to have quite a strong following - maybe RD should rename the company NBA :)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 08:40
NVA equipment seems to have quite a strong following - maybe RD should rename the company NBA :)
If you Google NVA you get North Vietnamese Army or Nationale Volks Armee (the old East German Army) then you get us a page later.
Stuart Michelle (of SRM) once pulled my plonker by saying it stood for "not very 'appy" :scratch:
There is a big difference between FOTM and a strong following. The later is organic and depends on product and service, the former is artificial and is from the creation of hype. One is long term the other is short, with lots of sell off later, hence the term.
Lodgesound
23-06-2011, 09:10
Snowths are indeed very real Richard....
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 09:23
Snowths are indeed very real Richard....
Oooo! where do they live.
Snowthland, of course!
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 12:28
Well on second thoughts I am not sure I want one after them having Jim Hensen's hand up their bum :eek:
But secretly, you'd like to cuddle one, wouldn't you?
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 13:42
But secretly, you'd like to cuddle one, wouldn't you?
Marco.
Yeeers! (sucking thumb and curling up in fetal position)
Lodgesound
23-06-2011, 13:50
Believe it or not one of my most fun jobs in my former life was being given responsibility for restoring "The Muppet Show" for DVD release from the original 2" Quadruplex tape masters - much fun was had getting the tapes to play and in the subsequent field-by-field repairing.
Despite the tapes being over 30 years old in some cases 90% of them played back almost perfectly with outstanding quality - Quad tape machines when lined up correctly give outstanding results.....
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 15:24
Believe it or not one of my most fun jobs in my former life was being given responsibility for restoring "The Muppet Show" for DVD release from the original 2" Quadruplex tape masters - much fun was had getting the tapes to play and in the subsequent field-by-field repairing.
Despite the tapes being over 30 years old in some cases 90% of them played back almost perfectly with outstanding quality - Quad tape machines when lined up correctly give outstanding results.....
I have rediscovered them in the last couple of years since Marco prompted me to use my forum name by calling me a muppet :lol:
As I have said youtube has become a major source of music and fun through the TFS and no matter how serious I try to be I always end up on muppet clips.
Some of my other favourites are:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfZVNv6w2E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6TTU1knUM
All this NVA talk has sparked my interest and this looks great
http://www.nene-valley-audio.com/frames/nva/ap10h.html
but what would I do with a 4th headphone amp :scratch:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 18:42
That is about the old 1990's one. The new one is different it will drive 4ohm speakers if need be, so no restriction on impedance - Grado's are fine on it.
Looks the same though.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 08:51
:eek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56sZOUPegUw&NR=1
Lodgesound
24-06-2011, 08:58
Ohh yesss....................and then there's this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfZVNv6w2E&feature=related
Madness :lol: :lol:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 09:34
Sorry put my links on the wrong thread, there was another one talking about muppet clips.
Marco can you put them in one thread and separate it, sorry for the hassle.
Sure, no worries... Which thread was the one talking about muppet clips?
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 09:49
On second thoughts is was this one a page back.
Perhaps a thread devoted to youtube music and muppet clips
Lol - you're obsessed! I guess that I know what to get you for Christmas ;)
Marco.
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