220volt equipment ok in uk?

[phoenixpete]

Maybe a newbie question but having just acquired an SAE pre amp rated 100volts/220volts (switchable on back panel) I could do with some help with deciding how best to run this long term.
As I intend to keep this as a long term purchase I could do with some help deciding how best to run it.
Do I get a step up transformer? If so which one,what spec etc. using 100volts?
Same but use the 220 volt setting?
Change the Pre to 240volts? If so how and with what (linky to exact component needed).

I have talked to the 2 previous owners and had some good advice but I really need guidence to part no's or exact pieces of equipment so I am sure I buy the right thing.
Lastly would running it as is on the 220volt setting be ok?
I will probably ditch the captive mains cable and fit an iec socket anyway as the original does't look too good.
I can wield a soldering iron but I am no electrical genius.

Anyone have any ideas?
Don't forget I need newbie type answers,no science or techy speak:cool:
Thanks.

[Reid Malenfant]

If you run it on the 220V setting you risk the whole thing being buggered up, but more than likely the power transformer due to excess magnetising current.

You could buy a small 24V transformer & wire it as a bucking transformer to lower the input voltage to about 220V. It'd be far cheaper than a step down transformer from 240 - 220V.

This got dealt with in a thread on balanced mains recently (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11411&highlight=balanced+mains&page=3) ;) Start from page 3 there & carry on...

[Ali Tait]

Easiest way is probably to use one of these-

http://www.maplin.co.uk/300w-uk-to-usa-voltage-convertor-265288

I wouldn't run it direct on UK mains at the 220v setting, as Mark says, you will fry it.

[Reid Malenfant]

Yes, easiest but damn expensive ;) Then again i suppose if you have no experience of electrical stuff & wiring etc it's probably the wisest choice at the end of the day :eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

Cheaper one-

http://www.maplin.co.uk/usa-uk-step-up-100va-24488?ordercode=UP90X

[Reid Malenfant]

I think i'd rather go for the Maplin jobby Ali, it might be £10 more but in this case the transformer is equivalent to an engine & bigger means a better supply when the Pre needs it :cool:

Which means better sound at the end of the day :)

[Ali Tait]

Aye agreed, though I wouldn't imagine the pre will drag much.

[Reid Malenfant]

No it probably won't, nothing like keeping the supply impedance as low as possible though ;) Better sound will be the result.

As Yoda would probably say :lol:

[Ali Tait]

Or better sound will the result be!

[Reid Malenfant]

:lolsign: Yeah, that to!

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Maybe a newbie question but having just acquired an SAE pre amp rated 100volts/220volts (switchable on back panel) I could do with some help with deciding how best to run this long term.
As I intend to keep this as a long term purchase I could do with some help deciding how best to run it.
Do I get a step up transformer? If so which one,what spec etc. using 100volts?
Same but use the 220 volt setting?
Change the Pre to 240volts? If so how and with what (linky to exact component needed).

I have talked to the 2 previous owners and had some good advice but I really need guidence to part no's or exact pieces of equipment so I am sure I buy the right thing.
Lastly would running it as is on the 220volt setting be ok?
I will probably ditch the captive mains cable and fit an iec socket anyway as the original does't look too good.
I can wield a soldering iron but I am no electrical genius.

Anyone have any ideas?
Don't forget I need newbie type answers,no science or techy speak:cool:
Thanks.
Just run it on 220v it wont make a blind bit of bloody difference if it gets 240v, all transformers and all commercial solid state circuits have more than enough tolerance built in to cope with it. The only company I know that sailed too close to the wind was MF with the original A1, they cooked regularly even at 240v.

If it is speced 110v for US then it is fine on 120v, if it is speced for Europe at 220v it will be fine on 240v as both are the same by the time they reach the circuit, just plus 10%.

[StanleyB]

It all depends on the design of the power supply in the amp. A lot of equipment were designed to take a transformer that has two 110V windings. This allowed them to e used in the US on 110, and in Europe and many Far Eastern countries on 220V. The UK with its 240V made it a bit more difficult for power amps, but just about everything else has regulators that make sure the DC voltages are all the same.
Few of the companies made 240V transformers that were exclusively for the UK. In most cases the transformer has a 10 to 20% tolerance level either side of 110V/220V. One reason for that is that the supply in some countries is 127V or 130V.

[Neil McCauley]

Cheaper one-

http://www.maplin.co.uk/usa-uk-step-up-100va-24488?ordercode=UP90X

I used this exact SAE (I was one of the two previous owners) with the Maplin on 110v. No hassle at all. Wish I hadn't sold it now. Ho hum

All my other SAE items have new UK power supplies fitted and IEC sockets too. About £75 per item. Did the same with my Carver gear. Here's the guy that did it > http://www.electrohill.co.uk/

I used him because being an amp technician (Ray Davis' amp tech) he is well used to converting heavy-duty USA Fender tube amps and so on to UK spec. And he has an IEC plate-punch, and knows how to use it, and when, and where!

As an aside, experiences with all early Audio Research power amps originally set to 220v resulted in disaster. including the M-300s I sold to Douglas Adams. A lifespan in nanoseconds!

[Reid Malenfant]

Okay Mr Honeydew, please explain then how come equipment from the far east specified at 220V tends to pop when fed UK mains? There are cases of it here on this forum with blown PSUs. If it's rated at European 230V then yes it's speced to cover the whole Euro scenario.

Something speced at 220V (which in case you haven't noticed is at least 10V lower) will not be happy being fed 250V which i often see where i am as do others :eyebrows:

[Neil McCauley]

....... will not be happy being fed 250V which i often see where i am as do others :eyebrows:

Ah yes, I forgot about this. When I was wandering the Southern Counties with my demo PS Audio PPP I did in fact encounter one instance of 257v in a home. It was like that for at least 30 mins. Lowest I found was 218v – but that was clearly a utility supplier fault and was eventually sorted.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, I have had a 220v Chinese valve amp fry it's mains trannie. Took a while, but it went in the end.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

If you note I said solid state, valve is a completely different kettle of fish, especially from China as they tend to sail very close to the wind on component tolerances.

For a start this is the *official* Uk mains voltage - Voltage tolerance of 230 V +10%/−6% (216.2 V to 253 V), widened to 230 V ±10% (207 V to 253 V) in 2008.

So as you can see 220v should be no problem if the equipment is designed correctly as SAE surely is. For a start they set the US voltage at 110v when it is more normally 120v so if it copes with that then it copes with 240v on 220v setting as both are plus 10% (approx).

All my amps will cope with 300v on the primary for a short period, and *all* will continue to work on 120v on 240v setting, you just lose lots of power capability.

[Reid Malenfant]

NO! If the equipment is from the far east then they don't have the same specs :mental:

What planet are you on? Their gear is designed to a different spec as regards voltage compatabilty FFS :rolleyes:

As for Musical Fidelity i'll never buy another piece of MF gear. Their P150 power amps were fitted with 63V capacitors when the DC rail voltage was 67V at idle, i guess it was no surprise that the caps were bulging & leaking :eyebrows: I guess i was lucky i happened to have some caps of the same size & value that were rated 80V DC & i knew what i was doing. What chance joe average?

I guess capacitor voltage never occured to you? Jeez...

[Neil McCauley]

NO! As for Musical Fidelity i'll never buy another piece of MF gear. Their P150 power amps were fitted with 63V capacitors when the DC rail voltage was 67V at idle, i guess it was no surprise that the caps were bulging & leaking.

You gotta hand it to Antony. A surprise in every package. To misquote Mr F Gump, "Amps are like a box of chocolates; you never know whatya gonna get".

[Reid Malenfant]

:lolsign: Indeed :doh:

[John]

Hi Pete
If you want our money back let me know

[Neil McCauley]

Hi Pete
If you want our money back let me know

Oh John, John, are you - like me - regretting the sale?

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

There is some completely bonkers logic going on here. Lets get back to reality for one minute.

SAE is an american company - yes! so it works in the US. It has a voltage tapping for the US of 110v where as the US norm is 120v - plus 10%. It has a second tapping for 220v so if it is run on 240v - plus 10%. There is no difference to the voltage that reaches the circuit, if it works on 120v in the US it will work on 240v in the UK.

[John]

Yes
sold without any mischief what so ever

[Reid Malenfant]

There is some completely bonkers logic going on here. Lets get back to reality for one minute.

SAE is an american company - yes! so it works in the US. It has a voltage tapping for the US of 110v where as the US norm is 120v - plus 10%. It has a second tapping for 220v so if it is run on 240v - plus 10%. There is no difference to the voltage that reaches the circuit, if it works on 120v in the US it will work on 240v in the UK.
So i guess you'll back that up with some kind of guarantee will you? Like you'll fix it for bugger all if it goes wrong & pay for it to be transported to you & back to the poor guy that it gave up on?

Come on, speak up :cool:

[John]

Pete if you not happy with it return it

[Neil McCauley]

Pete if you not happy with it return it

He's not implying that is he? Or am I missing something, other than my SAE? If it's up for sale then I'm interested.

Howard

[lurcher]

Plus if its US built, the core of the transformer will be sized for 60Hz as well. So its going to be over voltage and even closer to saturation.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

So i guess you'll back that up with some kind of guarantee will you? Like you'll fix it for bugger all if it goes wrong & pay for it to be transported to you & back to the poor guy that it gave up on?

Come on, speak up :cool:
Your an idiot, if you don't understand this basic electronics and what I have explained.

ALL the complaints on line have been about valve amps, especially from China. For a start their transformers are often under speced in the first place, so 10% will likely over heat them due to the voltages involved. 1000v plus 10% is an extra 100v. It is a *VALVE AMP* problem, not solid state.

A 10% increase in voltage for a solid state pre or power amp is just that 10%, if a designer builds in a less than 10% tolerance on components then he is an idiot and SAE are not idiots. I would bet they have at least a 30% short term tolerance built in. Just looking at the UK voltage specs (which incidently are closer toleranced than the US ones) will show you what you build for as minimum. If you find me a SAE pre that has gone wrong on US voltage then you have the same potential for a problem here, but it doesn't happen, they wouldn't be in business if it did.

We are talking about *EXACTLY* the same voltage tolerance 110v to 120v is identical to 220v to 240v = 10% the resultant voltage on the circuit will be identical.

[Reid Malenfant]

Ok so i'm an idiot, thanks for confirming what i thought i already knew :eyebrows:

I might be an idiot, but you are DANGEROUS!

While i have the best interests of this forum members at heart you just don't give a toss :rolleyes:

There is an old saying, "safety first" & frankly YOU are the idiot!

As you are totally apart (not directly involved) with this forum you can effectively say what you like & i notice that you certainly have done :eyebrows: It doesn't mean that a lot of sensible people will disagree with you that mean to be part of this place for a good while to come.

Electricity can kill, it can also cause fires. While you may preach that this is ok, i have to post that i simply isn't because i don't agree with you. Get over it :)

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Plus if its US built, the core of the transformer will be sized for 60Hz as well. So its going to be over voltage and even closer to saturation.
:scratch: How do you size a core for 60hz v 50hz it makes not a blind bit of bloody difference.

Do you seriously think UK or US manufacturers have different transformers fo 50 or 60hz, 'faid not. Go ask any UK transformer manufacturer to make a different mains transformer for 60hz and he will laugh at you. For a start the UK mains spec quotes a tolerance of + or - 5hz, so it could be 55hz naturally.

[StanleyB]

Okay Mr Honeydew, please explain then how come equipment from the far east specified at 220V tends to pop when fed UK mains?
That's easy to explain. They could not have passed BSI testing and were unlikely made in South Korea, Japan, or Taiwan.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Ok so i'm an idiot, thanks for confirming what i thought i already knew :eyebrows:

I might be an idiot, but you are DANGEROUS!

While i have the best interests of this forum members at heart you just don't give a toss :rolleyes:

There is an old saying, "safety first" & frankly YOU are the idiot!
Are you incapable of understanding anything I have said. SAE put a 110v taping, yet it will be fed by 120v in the US. They do this to cope with all latin american countries that are at 110v (but in reality fart around all over the place). So please explain the voltage difference that will be on the circuit rails of the SAE if connected via the 220v taping (obviously because mainland Europe is nominally 220v) fed by 240v. Both are 10% over nominal so both will be *EXACTLY* the same voltage on the circuit.

So why aren't you screaming in US forums telling them all SAE products are dangerous to use :doh: to use your favourite silly face.

[StanleyB]

The only amp I know of that is critical of the supply it is fed is the Pioneer M-25. That beast must have 110V. No ifs or buts about it, or smoke gets in your eyes.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

This may help break through some of the thickness present in this thread.

Standardization
Following voltage harmonization, electricity supplies within the European Union are now nominally 230 V ± 6% at 50 Hz. For a transition period (1995–2008), countries that had previously used 220 V changed to a narrower asymmetric tolerance range of 230 V +6% −10% and those (like the UK) that had previously used 240 V changed to 230 V +10% −6%. Note that no change in voltage is required by either system as both 220 V and 240 V fall within the lower 230 V tolerance bands (230 V ±6%). In practice, this allows countries to continue to supply the same voltage (220 or 240 V), at least until existing supply transformers are replaced. Equipment used in these countries is designed to accept any voltage within the specified range.
In the United States and Canada, national standards specify that the nominal voltage at the source should be 120 V and allow a range of 114 to 126 V (-5% to +5%). Historically 110, 115 and 117 volts have been used at different times and places in North America. Main power is sometimes spoken of as 110; however, 120 is the nominal voltage.
In 2000, Australia converted to 230 V as the nominal standard with a tolerance of +10% -6%., this superseding the old 240 V standard, AS2926-1987. As in the UK, 240 V is within the allowable limits and "240 volt" is a synonym for mains in Australian and British English.
In Japan, the electrical power supply to households is at 100 V. Eastern and northern parts of Honshū (including Tokyo) and Hokkaidō have a frequency of 50 Hz, whereas western Honshū (including Nagoya, Osaka, and Hiroshima), Shikoku, Kyūshū and Okinawa operate at 60 Hz. The boundary between the two regions contains four back-to-back HVDC substations which convert the frequency; these are Shin Shinano, Sakuma Dam, Minami-Fukumitsu, and the Higashi-Shimuzu Frequency Converter. To accommodate the difference, frequency-sensitive appliances marketed in Japan can often be switched between the two frequencies.

[phoenixpete]

Hi Pete
If you want our money back let me know

Hi John.

No chance:) I love the SAE. I just want to make sure I don't cook it.:eek:

Sorry everyone:mental: I seem to have stirred up a box of frog's.
I didn't mean to start an argument.:)
Funny the SAE is 100volts and 220volts not 110volts.
I looked inside at the mains and it has internal fuses, a seperate one for each selection. Looks like quite a small transformer but I don't suppose it will draw much current. Does get a bit warm over the power supply but not very hot.

[Reid Malenfant]

Are you incapable of understanding anything i have said FFS :mental:

I'm here to keep the forum members safe, i'm not here to promote a damn thing as i'm not a trade member unlike yourself.

Now while you keep picking up what i have said & ignored (well not quite - but just about) what other sensible proficient electronic designers have brought up i guess you are attempting to pull me up because of another thread on here that i also totally disagreed with you on the topic.

Now let me tell you something Richard I have nothing against you at all, i have no problem with you posting on here, but at the end of the day i have a responsibility to the forum members you just don't have! You can spout your cobblers & call people idiots etc, but it won't stop people with more sense than you (trust me there are a lot of them :lolsign:) from putting you in your place.

As i understand it you have been banned from more forums than i have had fried breakfasts, frankly i can't say i'm in the least surprised :)

Wind your neck in!

[Neil McCauley]

In Japan, the electrical power supply to households is at 100 V. Eastern and northern parts of Honshū (including Tokyo) and Hokkaidō have a frequency of 50 Hz, whereas western Honshū (including Nagoya, Osaka, and Hiroshima), Shikoku, Kyūshū and Okinawa operate at 60 Hz. The boundary between the two regions contains four back-to-back HVDC substations which convert the frequency; these are Shin Shinano, Sakuma Dam, Minami-Fukumitsu, and the Higashi-Shimuzu Frequency Converter. To accommodate the difference, frequency-sensitive appliances marketed in Japan can often be switched between the two frequencies.

How strange. Why would they choose to go to this hassle, or is it / was it too late to change? Thanks

Howard

[Marco]

Feel the lurve in the room, folks, when Richard and Mark get it on! :lol:

:kiss: :popcorn:

Marco.

[lurcher]

:scratch: How do you size a core for 60hz v 50hz it makes not a blind bit of bloody difference.

Do you seriously think UK or US manufacturers have different transformers fo 50 or 60hz, 'faid not. Go ask any UK transformer manufacturer to make a different mains transformer for 60hz and he will laugh at you. For a start the UK mains spec quotes a tolerance of + or - 5hz, so it could be 55hz naturally.

I suggest (trying to remain polite) you find yourself a better transformer winder. Of course any UK wound transformer is fine at 60hz. Flux density and magnetizing current is INDIRECTLY proportional to frequency, so a core sized for 50Hz is just fine at 60Hz. But we are discussing the other way round.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

What has any of that to do with electrical reality or plain common sense.

I repeat as you obvious are either trying to avoid it and realise you are being an idiot and just don't want to admit it. Why aren't you going onto US forums and warning them that using SAE on 120v is dangerous? As it is *EXACTLY* the same as using it on 240v on the 220v tapping here in the UK, there is no difference - it is 10% in both cases. So it is quite simply impossible for it to be dangerous to use it on UK mains. The Hz difference makes no bloody difference. The voltage makes no bloody difference (as long as you are set to the correct taping). So there is absolutely nothing that can be dangerous. Apart from you to an electricians sanity.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I suggest (trying to remain polite) you find yourself a better transformer winder. Of course any UK wound transformer is fine at 60hz. Flux density and magnetizing current is INDIRECTLY proportional to frequency, so a core sized for 50Hz is just fine at 60Hz. But we are discussing the other way round.
Then reverse it, phone up a US transformer manufacturer and ask him to make a mains transformer specifically for 50hz as opposed to his standard 60Hz and he will probably put the phone down on you laughing. Though knowing US business he will probably say yes and charge you double and send you the same thing he does to everyone :lol: there is just not enough difference to worry about, in both cases in the UK and US the mains frequency has a + and - 5hz anyway so they are as good as the same, apart from if you are using a frequency dependent circuit or motor as with some TTs.

[Marco]

Could we please lose the need to call each other idiots? Ta!

Marco.

[swampy]

I ran a 220V cdp on uk mains no problem (it was well made over-spec caps etc) but I'd never do the same with a tube amp or anything with HT in it without care. Also depends on build quality and if components are 'sailing close to the wind'. Some gear have cap voltage very close to supply rails leaving no margin.

You could just use a bucking tx as a 'quick' fix

[StanleyB]

If anything, tube based amps are far more robust than transistors and integrated circuits when it comes to supply variations. The tube will change colour, but the transistor will give up the ghost.

[lurcher]

both cases in the UK and US the mains frequency has a + and - 5hz anyway so they are as good as the same

Don't know about the US, but I think you will find thats +- 0.5Hz

Sowter recommend going up a size when swapping from 60Hz designs to 50Hz.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I ran a 220V cdp on uk mains no problem (it was well made over-spec caps etc) but I'd never do the same with a tube amp or anything with HT in it without care. Also depends on build quality and if components are 'sailing close to the wind'. Some gear have cap voltage very close to supply rails leaving no margin.

You could just use a bucking tx as a 'quick' fix
Find me a cap manufacturer who doesn't build in at least a 10% over voltage tolerance, it is normal to under spec, the better companies do it to 20 or 30%.

So a 50v cap is normally quite happy with 60v. Now in the past certain manufacturers (no names no pack drill) have taken advantage of this to make their production costs lower. In one famous case with a so called class A amp (so called because it was really a highly biased class AB), due to the internal temps of the amps they got about a 50% failure rate. Daft :mental: temperature and tolerance and life cycle go hand in hand.

So this is from a "dangerous" manufacturer :eek: I spec every single component at 30% voltage tolerance, and the companies I use to supply me speced at another 30% voltage tolerance, so I leave you to add it up as it is simple arithmetic which shouldn't be beyond anyone. So how much over voltage will this "dangerous" manufacturers products stand :scratch:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Sowter recommend going up a size when swapping from 60Hz designs to 50Hz.
That is for valve amps, it is totally different process, on secondary you are going for voltage gain with valve amps I am going for voltage drop with solid state. I am talking toroids, which have far better regulation and lower supply impedance than the frames Sowter make. It is very difficult to make toroids with such large secondary windings and they would probably be dangerous and outside safety regs with toroid construction, so Sowter do the best job possible with frames. They are different beasts.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

If anything, tube based amps are far more robust than transistors and integrated circuits when it comes to supply variations. The tube will change colour, but the transistor will give up the ghost.
The argument was about ebay special valve amps direct from China, they are often severely under speced especially the mains transformers, and therefore often downright dangerous.

[alfie2902]

I used one of these http://uk.rs-online.com/web/2932678.html when I was playing around with a 220V valve amp. The amp ran a bit cooler, sounded better & I felt safer, so worth the money I thought!

[swampy]

If anything, tube based amps are far more robust than transistors and integrated circuits when it comes to supply variations. The tube will change colour, but the transistor will give up the ghost.

Not on a 845 or gm70 amp wired for 220V it isn't. That UK 10-20V difference on the primary sure makes a difference to the secondary HT voltage :stalks:

Heaters also over volt and run much hotter. Sure it will work but life is shorter.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I used one of these http://uk.rs-online.com/web/2932678.html when I was playing around with a 220V valve amp. The amp ran a bit cooler, sounded better & I felt safer, so worth the money I thought!
Once again :rolleyes: yes it is essential with a valve amp, you are playing with lethal voltages, and multi thousand volt explosions are on a different richter scale than the 50 to 100v pops of a solid state amp.

With a solid state product, including this SAE, it would just be a waste of money.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Not on a 845 or gm70 amp wired for 220V it isn't. That UK 10-20V difference on the primary sure makes a difference to the secondary HT voltage :stalks:

Heaters also over volt and run much hotter. Sure it will work but life is shorter.
EXACTLY! different beasts.

All of this saga is one of the reasons why valve amps can never pass CE.

[alfie2902]

Once again :rolleyes: yes it is essential with a valve amp, you are playing with lethal voltages, and multi thousand volt explosions are on a different richter scale than the 50 to 100v pops of a solid state amp.

With a solid state product, including this SAE, it would just be a waste of money.

Surely it will drag more current?

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Surely it will drag more current?
:scratch: why, doesn't anyone here understand electronics. If the wattage is constant and the voltage is higher what does that make the current drawn = lower. If it for any illogical reason draws more current it is again only plus 10% and any manufacturer who cannot cope with a + 10% on either current or voltage should be shot, or at least taught how to do his job.

[Marco]

Btw, without wishing to spoil the discussion, I must insist that there is no repeat of the 'Richard & Mark show', from last night, as it's getting a bit stale.

If you guys can't agree on something, then simply agree to disagree and move on. I don't want to see any more circular 'tit for tat' exchanges today, or anyone being referred to as an "idiot". Cheers! :)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

I have to say I'm with Richard on this one. The hi-fi manufacturer that I used to work for also made amplifiers and the regulations they worked to required that the amplifier met its output performance over a voltage range of 204 to 276V (i.e +/-15% around nominal 240V).

I would imagine that a respectable manufacturer like SAE will be working to similar tolerances and I would therefore submit that there will be no problem with the OP using his amplifier on UK mains (which is mostly closer to 230V anyway these days).

Most of the incidences of fried Far Eastern equipment I have met has indeed been down to poorly specified components - I have even seen units containing off-the shelf componentry with higher rating stickers stuck over the original rating! :rolleyes:

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
the only thing i am going to comment on at the moment is the Valve amp safety aspect, Most valve amps i have seen purchased from one of the well known auction sites and which are of the chinese origins are specified as being 220v, Now on test i have found that for all secondary voltages to be correct, the mains voltage in is considerably less approx 207v, so as you can imagine, if you purchase one of the units in question and simply plug it into our voltage which as others have stated can vary between 238v and nearly 260v in some areas at a paticular time of day, Then its no wonder they go up in smoke within a reletively short time. The main issue with a handfull of the popular valve amps is not the HT over voltage,[as long as the caps in the power supply are adequate] but the heater voltage, When one of these units are plugged into a nominal uk voltage supply of 240v, the heater voltage on the output valves can be over 7.5v [seven and half volt] when it should be no more than 6.5v for correct operation, in short, this in turn causes thermal runaway where the valve will draw more and more current untill it destroys itself, the bias supply and more.
So, it is of the utmost importance where valve amps are concerned to adere to the correct voltage operation, although when dealing with some of the imported amps in question it is hard sometimes to know exactly what that voltage is without testing.
hope this helps.
Anthony,TD...

[Ali Tait]

Yes indeed, though there are some Chinese amps that are properly specified for the UK.

[jantheman]

I used one of these http://uk.rs-online.com/web/2932678.html when I was playing around with a 220V valve amp. The amp ran a bit cooler, sounded better & I felt safer, so worth the money I thought!

Bugger...You always find something that would be an easy fix AFTER you have faffed around doing it 'your' way. One of these could have saved me some time and effort........:doh:

[Audioman]

Yes indeed, though there are some Chinese amps that are properly specified for the UK.

Can I add that these are in the main imported by a UK distributor/ manufacturer and tested or modified here. Ebay bargains probably aren't what they seem even if they have an uncanny resemblance to UK designed and branded/chinese built models. (Puresound look alikes come to mind).

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Can I add that these are in the main imported by a UK distributor/ manufacturer and tested or modified here. Ebay bargains probably aren't what they seem even if they have an uncanny resemblance to UK designed and branded/chinese built models. (Puresound look alikes come to mind).
But some are very good and extremely good value, including the ones made by the Puresound manufacturer. As far as I know it is sonic tweaking and changing class that makes Puresound, Puresound.

The problem is sorting out the good'uns from the duff.

[Marco]

Well, Guy's a member here, so you can ask him :)

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well I am going on what I remember him saying when this came up before.

[Marco]

I think you're essentially right.

Btw, on another subject, did you have a look at the Valvona & Crolla website? :)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
of course there are UK spec'd valve amps that originate from "those countries" that have been specificaly designed to run safely on our mains, Puresound amps are amongst them.
Anthony,TD...

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Yes but haven't done anything about it yet.

We are going next in September. Nadia wants to fly to Rome, do the tourist bit for a few days then get the Train to Naples or Pozzuoli (if the train stops there) for the ferry to Ischia. Fly back from Naples.

There were a couple from Rome we met in Ischia last time who have offered us the locals experience :)

BTW this is good to get the feel of the beast for Italia virgins http://www.ladolcevitaevent.co.uk/ there will be one next year and our friends from the Hotel Villa Sirena Ischia are coming and we will look after them and give them the locals guide.

BLISS http://www.ladolcevitaevent.co.uk/gallery.php I would end up enormously fat.

[Ali Tait]

Can I add that these are in the main imported by a UK distributor/ manufacturer and tested or modified here. Ebay bargains probably aren't what they seem even if they have an uncanny resemblance to UK designed and branded/chinese built models. (Puresound look alikes come to mind).

Perhaps, but there are good ones to be had direct. I had a Mr Liand 845 which was never less than totally reliable, and it's still doing sterling service with it's new owner several years down the line.

[Marco]

We are going next in September. Nadia wants to fly to Rome, do the tourist bit for a few days then get the Train to Naples or Pozzuoli (if the train stops there) for the ferry to Ischia. Fly back from Naples.

There were a couple from Rome we met in Ischia last time who have offered us the locals experience :)


Sounds ace! Hey, if you're a good boy (lol), I might even rent you our villa in Tuscany, for a holiday some time, at a good price - that is if you like remote hilltop Italian villages ;)

If you're willing to use local transport, as seems the case, however, then there's plenty to do in the local area.

The nearby city of Lucca is somewhere you should definitely visit. There's a family-run ice-cream parlour there, where their home-made ice-cream (using age-old recipes, handed down from generations) is just out of this world! :eek:

You must've learned a little Italian on your travels? :)

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Sounds ace! Hey, if you're a good boy (lol), I might even rent you our villa in Tuscany, for a holiday some time, at a good price - that is if you like remote hilltop Italian villages ;)

If you're willing to use local transport, as seems the case, however, then there's plenty to do in the local area.

The nearby city of Lucca is somewhere you should definitely visit. There's a family-run ice-cream parlour there, where their home-made ice-cream (using age-old recipes, handed down from generations) is just out of this world! :eek:

You must've learned a little Italian on your travels? :)

Marco.

Swop it for some gear :eyebrows:

Been to Luca, bootifull.

I am British :eyebrows: I expect everyone to speak English, and if they don't I just repeat louder and slower :ner:. Enough to say hello etc and order English breakfast - uova alla coque

British are very lazy about language as most of the rest of the world learns ours as second language.

[Marco]

Ain't that the truth! But it's always good to make an effort - you gain the respect of the locals that way, and lessen the likelihood of them overcharging or spitting in your soup... ;)

I love learning foreign languages. I'm fluent in Italian, have decent French (written and spoken), a smattering of German, and of course Glaswegian :eyebrows:

If I had more time, I'd learn lots more languages, as it always comes in handy. Cantonese is something I'd like to master :)

Marco.

[alfie2902]

:scratch: why, doesn't anyone here understand electronics. If the wattage is constant and the voltage is higher what does that make the current drawn = lower. If it for any illogical reason draws more current it is again only plus 10% and any manufacturer who cannot cope with a + 10% on either current or voltage should be shot, or at least taught how to do his job.

Hi Richard,

No, I don't really understand electronics! Otherwise I'd be building amps & not driving trains for a living :)

I did though ask an electrician friend on his thoughts on 220v HiFi run on 240v supply & he pointed me at this page http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm it may not be relavant, but his advice & this article especially the last 2 paragraphs convinced me to buy the autotransformer I mentioned earlier. As said though mine was a 220v rated valve amp & not SS, but what's your thought on the article?

[StanleyB]

That electrician's guide is for electricians as stated. It's not an electronics guide :). The guide mentions the use of appliances, which would be household appliances such as fridges, waching machines, electric cookers, etc. It also includes light fittings. These type of goods are normally relying on some sort of electromechanical motor, which is designed for a certain efficiancy and reliability at a certain voltage. Once that voltage goes up or down, the motor runs faster or slower. This can cause additional wear and tear, and earlier breakdown issues.

In the case of electronic goods, the examples are meaningless.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Hi Richard,

No, I don't really understand electronics! Otherwise I'd be building amps & not driving trains for a living :)

I did though ask an electrician friend on his thoughts on 220v HiFi run on 240v supply & he pointed me at this page http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm it may not be relavant, but his advice & this article especially the last 2 paragraphs convinced me to buy the autotransformer I mentioned earlier. As said though mine was a 220v rated valve amp & not SS, but what's your thought on the article?

Oooooooo!! I always wanted be a train driver since I was 10 years old. I was one of those little brats at Kings Cross arrival end looking up adoringly into the cab of a Gresley A4 saying "can I come up mister".

I will look at the article later.

EDIT :- for nearly a year when I lived in Leicester I was member of the Main Line Steam trust at Loughborough on the old GC. I got as far as being a passed cleaner (passed to fire). Good fun but hard work, and learning all about injectors and ejectors, and you get bloody dirty.

[alfie2902]

That electrician's guide is for electricians as stated. It's not an electronics guide :). The guide mentions the use of appliances, which would be household appliances such as fridges, waching machines, electric cookers, etc. It also includes light fittings. These type of goods are normally relying on some sort of electromechanical motor, which is designed for a certain efficiancy and reliability at a certain voltage. Once that voltage goes up or down, the motor runs faster or slower. This can cause additional wear and tear, and earlier breakdown issues.

In the case of electronic goods, the examples are meaningless.

Thanks for the clarification Stan! :)

[alfie2902]

Oooooooo!! I always wanted be a train driver since I was 10 years old. I was one of those little brats at Kings Cross arrival end looking up adoringly into the cab of a Gresley A4 saying "can I come up mister".

I will look at the article later.

EDIT :- for nearly a year when I lived in Leicester I was member of the Main Line Steam trust at Loughborough on the old GC. I got as far as being a passed cleaner (passed to fire). Good fun but hard work, and learning all about injectors and ejectors, and you get bloody dirty.

Unfortunately I don't drive anything as nice as a Gresley A4 :stalks:

You should have a day up on the Great Central Railway there's been alot of work done over the years!

http://www.gcrailway.co.uk/

[Audioman]

Perhaps, but there are good ones to be had direct. I had a Mr Liand 845 which was never less than totally reliable, and it's still doing sterling service with it's new owner several years down the line.

Great to hear and perhaps knowledgable forum members could contribute to a list of known good ones. Potentialy if they are up to spec there are major bargains out there. The ones that look and are claimed to be similar or same as the Puresound are a fraction of the UK price. I don't expect Guy to recommend them over his product though. :)

[phoenixpete]

Well firstly I would like to apologize to everyone for causing a slanging match.
I never thought my question would cause so much trouble.:(

Thanks to everyone that offered their advice, I had a look at various transformers, step up and step down devices but got a bit confused.

So I thought I would have a chat with the guy that built my power amp as we have become close friends since I bought it from him a couple of years ago.
I went to see him today and told him the story and he said as Richard said really that it would be ok running with 240 volts into the 220 setting but if I wanted to be absolutely sure and for the sake of putting me at ease (incase the SAE mains transformer is marginal) that I could use a transformer that would take the 240 down to 220 then I would be sure it was right.

This is what he gave me ( See pics below )

Now please no one freak out or at least only at me not each other:cool:

I will get a nice case to put it in as it is very exposed at the moment ( but out of harms way )

This is connected from home mains to common tap (0) neutral on the transformer and positive to 240volt tapping on transformer then out to SAE neutral on common tap (0) and positive to 220volt tapping on transformer, so the SAE is getting 220volts now so it must be right?

Well it works and the case above the SAE internal transformer is a little cooler I think than it was before.
Played Yello "Baby" and it just sounds fantastic.

I also cut the mains lead very short on the SAE and fitted an iec socket plug so I can use a decent lead on it to the "Mega" transformer.
This thing is about 5 inches high by about 3 wide and 3 deep weighs about 5 lb.
And I am going to make up some side cheeks for the SAE to match my power amp in Greenheart

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/phoenixpete_2006/P6150098.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/phoenixpete_2006/P6150101.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/phoenixpete_2006/P6150108.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/phoenixpete_2006/P6150109.jpg

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well I hope it didn't cost you a lot otherwise you wasted it. Plus an extra couple of coils to increase power supply impedance. If the original transformer was marginal it would be hot not gently warm (gently warm is what everything *should* be). So a drop from gently warm to luke warm is meaningless.

We really do need to get some correct expert inf on forums to stop this sort of paranoia spreading.

[phoenixpete]

Well I hope it didn't cost you a lot otherwise you wasted it. Plus an extra couple of coils to increase power supply impedance. If the original transformer was marginal it would be hot not gently warm (gently warm is what everything *should* be). So a drop from gently warm to luke warm is meaningless.

We really do need to get some correct expert inf on forums to stop this sort of paranoia spreading.


Luckily it was a freebie Richard.

This is the problem really. because I don't know myself what is right and what is not, and everyone else disagrees or has different opinions I can only try and make an informed guess as to what is right or wrong.:scratch:

Anyway it sounds great and isn't smoking so F**K it.:lolsign:

[simon g]

All of this saga is one of the reasons why valve amps can never pass CE.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation ~ my Rogue Audio Cronus is CE marked. It has a specific UK specification.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Bit of a sweeping generalisation ~ my Rogue Audio Cronus is CE marked. It has a specific UK specification.

As I explained clearly in the thread, marking a piece of equipment as CE and actually meeting it are two different things. AND if you had read the full CE regs and understood how valve amps function, then you would know that by their very nature it is impossible for them to meet it.

Now that does not mean all valve amps are bad and unsafe (though some are), what it means is that CE is a load of old crap invented by risk assessors and bureaucrats to justify their inflated salaries, and also to protect and defend the golden egg - the digital telecoms business.

In reality it is not being enforced, so anyone can put CE on anything. It is only a problem if something happens and then there could be an investigation. But even in a blatant case as in the case of the speaker that caught fire, which should be impossible with a CE marked speaker, *no matter what caused it*, nothing seems to have been done about it.

[nat8808]

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/phoenixpete_2006/P6150101.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/phoenixpete_2006/P6150108.jpg

Eeek! Now a non-problem has turned into live exposed mains right by the window!

See what happens... get people worried unnecessarily (but insisting that worry is for their own safety) and it pushes them into real danger!

Just like after the London bombings - there were about 200 extra road deaths over a period of months after the bombings as people decided to take cycle because it was 'safer'

Human nature is a funny funny thing.

(I know you're going to sort it out Pete - just exagerating to make a point).

I'd be happy with running a pre-amp at 220V - was running my Wadia x64 at 220V no probs. Anything with a step-down transformer inside I'd be ok with due to tolerrances etc.

Edit: Just had a thought: The problem is not with the voltage going in to it, it is purely a problem with the screen-printed text on the gear! It should have a range of tolerrance relating to the actual equipment spec rather than simplifed and only a reflection of the marketing area.

[Marco]

Hi Richard,


As I explained clearly in the thread, marking a piece of equipment as CE and actually meeting it are two different things. AND if you had read the full CE regs and understood how valve amps function, then you would know that by their very nature it is impossible for them to meet it.

Now that does not mean all valve amps are bad and unsafe (though some are), what it means is that CE is a load of old crap invented by risk assessors and bureaucrats to justify their inflated salaries, and also to protect and defend the golden egg - the digital telecoms business.

In reality it is not being enforced, so anyone can put CE on anything. It is only a problem if something happens and then there could be an investigation. But even in a blatant case as in the case of the speaker that caught fire, which should be impossible with a CE marked speaker, *no matter what caused it*, nothing seems to have been done about it.

No problem with anything you've written above, until I read the bit in bold. Let's hear no more about *that* now infamous incident, please, as we had enough of it before, dude, to last us a lifetime! ;)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Hi Richard,
No problem with anything you've written above, until I read the bit in bold. Let's hear no more about *that* now infamous incident, please, as we had enough of it before, dude, to last us a lifetime! ;)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

No prob, it just illustrated my point.

[Marco]

Churz! :)

Marco.