View Full Version : New Pre?
The Karan does a good job but I reckon it's the weakest link - a little 'dark' at times. For oodles of breadth and depth + soul and to do justice to the rest of the kit, suggestions would be appreciated :)
P.S
Not the darTZeel pre chaps - too bloody expensive +I don't like the combo too much. On the other hand I doubt a Nad will do the job either so we would be thinking of 5-10K I guess
5 to 10K Get you a lot of pre
If it was my money I get one built by either Anthony TD or Lurcher (Nick) you can have something totally bespoke plus sounding great
Ali Tait
09-06-2011, 21:12
Agreed. Ask Nick to build you one of his "Little Martha" preamps. The best I've heard by a large margin.
I find it pretty unbelievable that someone willing to pay £5k+ for a pre is asking a forum for advice.
I must be on another planet, beam me up Scotty.
My Pass Labs XP-20 is the cleanest, most transparent preamp I've ever heard. If you're serious about a superb pre, you should call Stephen Riddick at Select Audio and ask for a local dealer or loan unit.
5 to 10K Get you a lot of pre
If it was my money I get one built by either Anthony TD or Lurcher (Nick) you can have something totally bespoke plus sounding great
It also gets you a lot of car which has vastly more materials, design time and effort than an amp or most Hi-Fi for that matter. Problem with coming from an electronics background I seem to look at stuff and mentally break the cost down and refuse to pay new prices for almost anything these days. I am a bit of a cheapskate though... the pound shop rulez.
You can get some very nice pre for 5K to 10K...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/thorens4/tep3800.html
I find it pretty unbelievable that someone willing to pay £5k+ for a pre is asking a forum for advice.
I must be on another planet, beam me up Scotty.
On the contrary, can get very useful info. from some forums. All adds to the shortlist :)
Will investigate Pass Labs too so ta for that
5 to 10K Get you a lot of pre
If it was my money I get one built by either Anthony TD or Lurcher (Nick) you can have something totally bespoke plus sounding great
It's true that bespoke offers much better vfm. The only problem is residual value eg
buy a bespoke for 5K maybe sell it 6 years later. Customers will say never heard of it - no street cred.
With a hyped branded label for 10K maybe sell for 4K later on.
Dosh may pan out even in the end.
The Grand Wazoo
10-06-2011, 06:50
So it's simple then. Get someone to build you a 6k amp and sell it after 6 years (if you really must). Even if you only sell it for a penny, you've done better than chucking away 4k on something new.
Personally, I don't think preamp technology moves on fast enough for you to need to change as often as that - assuming you make a good choice by buying something you like and meets your needs.
Just pop on ebay regularly and sort highest price to lowest in the pre-amp category to filter out the 'junk'. I am sure something will turn up that has already been discounted ex-demo by some of the hifi traders on there; or lost some value by the 1st owner. That way you will lose less in a few years.
You can get some very nice pre for 5K to 10K...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/thorens4/tep3800.html
That looks very nice indeed. Whoever is responsible these days for the designing at Thorens is someone who shares my own taste in aesthetics. I also love the look of their current turntables :)
However, looks aside, and after examining what's 'underneath the hood', I'm wondering if a preamp must be that complicated and use so many components for the signal to navigate, thus affecting its integrity - or are they only doing that to justify the cost?
I'm afraid that I'm more of the old school, 'keep it simple, stupid' thinking, and so value an approach of using the minimal amount of parts needed to get the job done, and ensuring that they're of the highest quality, then hard-wiring the lot together, point-to-point, and fitting a nice beefy, 'over-the-top' PSU - perhaps spending more on that than anything else...
Of course here I'm talking about high-quality valve preamps, which are my own preference.
In that respect, Robin, if you want something commercially produced that will hold its value, is hand-made with loving care, sounds superb, and will also lend itself to tweaking (and there your sky's the limit), you can't go wrong with Croft. The one I'd recommend is the Micro 25R:
http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/micro25_R.html
Ignore the prices. Glenn doesn't sell preamps at £5k+, and that's simply because those he sells at £1400 outperform some of those from other manufacturers which sell for £5k+ (minus the unnecessary aesthetic frippery), and you get what sounds like a £2000 phono stage built-in for 'free'! ;)
I've also heard Nick's 'Little Martha' preamp, and it is stunningly good (it would blow your mind), but if you want something also stunningly good, with a slightly more recognised badge, then it is Croft you should look at. Having used a (modified) Croft preamp now for the last 7 years, I can give it the highest recommendation.
Quite simply, good design never dates.
Marco.
The Karan does a good job but I reckon it's the weakest link - a little 'dark' at times. For oodles of breadth and depth + soul and to do justice to the rest of the kit, suggestions would be appreciated :)
I would agree 100% whole heartedly I would also venture as to say the 'hifi sheen' which is added to the sound can be some what artifical Robin.
P.S
Not the darTZeel pre chaps - too bloody expensive +I don't like the combo too much. On the other hand I doubt a Nad will do the job either so we would be thinking of 5-10K I guess
Again I would agree with this as well, to much of a muchness Robin.
You could go for the ARC ref 5 is one possibility.
I agree with Marco here and should add that well designed preamps don't HAVE to cost many thousands of pounds UNLESS they're decent designs in the first place, tuned with the finest components money can buy. Believe me, most of the popular "Top End Reference" style products are NOT worth the money IMO and sell to the eyes and status in any case - IMO......
What should a preamp do? I think it should be able to switch a few inputs, govern gain adjustments and, in the case of much domestic audio, it should have a line buffer to either drive long interconnects, or low input impedance power amps, of which there are many out there. Not a difficult job frankly, with modern low-moise components and the deep understanding of power supplies, earthing paths etc - in my opinion....
I was scared stiff when I looked at internal pics of the £850 Cambridge Audio preamp. WHY does it need to be so complex? The bigger ATC preamp also had individual buffer stages for everything, input, output and everything in between - totally unnecessary with a decent switchbank I thought, and it sounded like it needed a SuperCap style mega supply to give it a kick up the backside too. Personally, I much prefer the Croft (and my AVI) approach - a simple capable line buffer able to drive most amps out there, decent supplies in the top models (or at least individual regulated? supplies for each stage) and a simple switching and volume control at the input. I can't say a passive preamp is universal, but if one can be used, then even better IMO.
Sorry to go on so, but I despair of the high-cachet male jewellery that passes for top end audio these days. If the Croft just looks too crude for you (shame, but some think this), then get a Tube Distinctions one, with the best components Anthony can put into it. Not only will you have some nice bling (:)), but you'll have a preamp at least as good as Croft at its best and probably better because of the top quality components fitted as standard.
Apologies, I've seen inside too many ARC preamps which were raved about yet dramatically altered the signal passed through them (they should have been called processors, not top-end HiFi at all, but there you go). Even Levinson went down the "all fur coat and no knickers" route and I remember the ML28 as being a superb product with genuinely and expensively innovative design for the time.
Nuff said, I'll duck back under my stone now :)
What should a preamp do? I think it should be able to switch a few inputs, govern gain adjustments and, in the case of much domestic audio, it should have a line buffer to either drive long interconnects, or low input impedance power amps, of which there are many out there.
I completely agree. The latter - driving interconnects and the amplifier properly - is paramount. I find so-called passive 'preamps' disappointing for this very reason.
Not a difficult job frankly, with modern low-moise components and the deep understanding of power supplies, earthing paths etc - in my opinion....
It's clearly more difficult than that, otherwise most decent preamps would sound the same - but they don't. I would go so far as to say that the preamp is more important than the power amp in terms of overall system performance. Discuss!
The Pass Labs products are not cheap, they do have a high component count and they are very well built into heavyweight casework, so I guess they don't meet your criteria. However, Nelson Pass is a designer with huge street cred and he knows a thing or two about balanced circuit design. The proof is in the listening: I would put the XP-20 up against any preamp out there. I've tried it against models from Krell, BAT, ARC and it has them soundly beaten.
Hi Martin,
I would totally agree about your XP-20. Having heard it a few times now, it is without doubt, along with the Tube Distinctions Soul Mate, the finest solid-state preamp I have heard. Expensive, yes, but in this case one is paying for where it matters 'under the hood', as well as on a superbly finished product.
I'm not against hi-end 'badged' gear, far from it, as long as it's not only the price tag that's 'hi-end'!! ;)
However, I'm sure you'll agree that when you heard my Croft preamp (in conjunction with the Copper amp) in your system, that there wasn't a hill of beans in it, between the Pass Labs and your Chord, which goes to prove as we've always said, that when analysing products from the upper echelons of both valve and solid-state technologies, the similarity in presentation is quite uncanny.
And in fact that is *exactly* as it should be, when the goal of their respective designers is ultimately about achieving, as far as possible, neutrality!
As for preamps being more sonically influential in the reproduction chain than power amps, again I totally agree. A preamp is at the heart of a system's ability to accurately reproduce music, and also in-line first with the signal path. A bad preamp would therefore have a disastrous effect on the music signal that no power amp, no matter how good, could rectify.
It's therefore my conclusion that the only people who would consider the job of a power amp as being of more importance, are either those who judge a system solely on its sound, rather than on the MUSIC it makes, or some cynical objectivists whose blinkered 'black & white' dogma wouldn't allow them to overcome the notion of the ideal preamp being nothing other than a 'straight wire with gain'.
Such overly simplistic thinking and inability to think 'outside the box' is the reason why some people will likely never own a system whose performance elevates itself above mediocrity....
However, if you feel in the mood for contentious discussions, try this one: in terms of the ability of a system to play music, and not merely reproduce sound, loudspeakers are the LEAST important components in the chain. Discuss!
Marco.
However, I'm sure you'll agree that when you heard my Croft preamp (in conjunction with the Copper amp) in your system, that there wasn't a hill of beans in it, between the Pass Labs and your Chord, which goes to prove as we've always said, that when analysing products from the upper echelons of both valve and solid-state technologies, the similarity in presentation is quite uncanny.
Oh yes indeed. Our observations about the similarity in presentation of a top end valve and solid state pre/power amp combination were memorable and prove that both technologies can achieve excellence. Convergence at the top gives the lie to futile valve/solid state arguments :)
However, if you feel in the mood for contentious discussions, try this one: in terms of the ability of a system to play music, and not merely reproduce sound, loudspeakers are the LEAST important components in the chain. Discuss!
Tricky! I think, on balance, that I would agree. But I can also see the arguments from those who say that transducers (i.e. the beginning and end of the chain) are the most important components.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
10-06-2011, 14:58
I completely agree. The latter - driving interconnects and the amplifier properly - is paramount. I find so-called passive 'preamps' disappointing for this very reason.
Why do you say this, is it from personal experience. Per usual there is a lot of misunderstanding and crap talk. A passive source switching attenuator (pre-amp) has a variable output impedance so two things will cock it up in its usage. The first is high cap interconnects, and of course length of interconnects if they are high cap as the capacitance doubles with doubling the length. So why? well a variable series resistance with a fixed parallel capacitance is a tone control so with high cap leads, especially long ones, when you turn the volume down you progressively lose high frequency. Answer use ultra low capacitance interconnects and then with up to 5m cables you will have no problems. Obviously NVA interconnect are like this as are a few others. Secondly is the coupling in the power amp as some don't like being fed with a variable impedance source. So per usual there is no passives are crap, passives are wonderful, like everything else it is system synergy.
In my experience I have never found a valve amp that doesn't appreciate the clarity of a passive (as long as the cabling is right), the problem occurs with some semi conductor amps, especially those that look at the electrical characteristic of both parts as one i.e. really an integrated that happens to have two boxes and some cables, especially with their earthing arrangements. Naim and Exposure are specific to this type, but there are other and also you will find odd amps in manufacturers ranges like MF, some will like, some wont.
So per usual like all absolutes spouted in audio discussions they are far from the truth, there is only your music, in your room, with your system and your ears.
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 15:25
hi all,
i tend to agree, passives can work in the right system, however, most wont due to a mismatch of cables and impedances etc.
the best passive i have heard is one which Nick, [lurcher] made for ian walker, it was totaly dual mono, and used multi tap transformers.
absolutely stunning, with inky black silence.
However, my own prefrence is a well designed active preamp, mainly because they will drive most loads presented without issues at all volume levels.
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
10-06-2011, 15:38
Well I don't like transformer passives too much wire in the signal path with all those coils. For me a good stepped attenuator is best, but it cost to make a really good one. A high quality Elma or similar with Takman or even better Shinkho tantalum resistors.
LDR (light dependent resistor) based passives have promise, but are not as good as the best SA (stepped attenuator) units, they have to be powered and also seem to be having reliability problems too.
Remember all IMO and IME (experience).
HighFidelityGuy
10-06-2011, 15:54
LDR (light dependent resistor) based passives have promise, but are not as good as the best SA (stepped attenuator) units, they have to be powered and also seem to be having reliability problems too.
Remember all IMO and IME (experience).
Check out the Lighter Note (http://www.buildanamp.com/Lighter-Note-Kit-ALL-YOU-NEED-LighterNote-KIT.htm) LDR attenuator. It apparently allows a much more constant output impedance and it's impedance characteristics can be tweaked using trim pots. It also has a much more advanced power supply than the standard Lightspeed. This provides a constant current supply to the LDR LED's. The designer is also working on several add-ons including remote volume and balance control as well as an input selector board which I think is also based on LDR's. :)
I have the basic Lighternote and the clarity is stunning. I'm just waiting for the add-ons so I can start using it full time. I'm lost without remote volume control. :doh:
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 16:04
Well I don't like transformer passives too much wire in the signal path with all those coils. For me a good stepped attenuator is best, but it cost to make a really good one. A high quality Elma or similar with Takman or even better Shinkho tantalum resistors.
LDR (light dependent resistor) based passives have promise, but are not as good as the best SA (stepped attenuator) units, they have to be powered and also seem to be having reliability problems too.
Remember all IMO and IME (experience).
Fair comment,
i had my own reservations before i heard it in my own system, it realy is very good.
i use DACT attenuators in my own active preamps, i have tried other attenuators over the years but i still prefer the DACT over any other.
Anthony,TD...
Reid Malenfant
10-06-2011, 16:16
From recollection the passive attenuator that had least effect on the music imo was a passive that used six relays relays per channel & kept a constant input & output impedance.
Each relay was responsible for a different degree of attenuation, if i remember correctly is was 1.5Db, 3Db, 6Db, 12Db, 24Db & 48Db.
This only put a maximum of six resistors between the input & output, rather than the usual up to 21 or 24.
The fact that the output impedance never varied meant it didn't need any fancy cabling :)
Ali Tait
10-06-2011, 16:18
Agree passives can sound very good- Nick's own pre is a passive, allbeit with buffer stages before and after, though I have to say the "Little Martha" active valve pre he built for Brian is far and away the best pre I've ever heard.
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 16:26
From recollection the passive attenuator that had least effect on the music imo was a passive that used six relays relays per channel & kept a constant input & output impedance.
Each relay was responsible for a different degree of attenuation, if i remember correctly is was 1.5Db, 3Db, 6Db, 12Db, 24Db & 48Db.
This only put a maximum of six resistors between the input & output, rather than the usual up to 21 or 24.
The fact that the output impedance never varied meant it didn't need any fancy cabling :)
The DACT attenuators [from memory] are of the ladder type and only have two resistors in the signal path at any position, and they are tiny surface mount, so add very little to the signal path.
i use them between two active stages.
Anthony,TD...
Reid Malenfant
10-06-2011, 16:32
Sounds like a similar system that may well also result in a constant output impedance. I have seen similar on my travels, but never had a chance to evaluate them.
The thing i liked about the relays doing the switching was the lack of wear & tear on the switching contacts. If i remember correctly it used BT type 47 relays which have gold plated contacts in a totally sealed environment. Must be good for reliabilty at the end of the day. Volume control was just a plain potentiometer feeding an ADC which decided which relays were doing what :cool:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
10-06-2011, 16:42
You are correct only two resistors in the signal path, there is a problem with surface mounts IMO. I tried the DACT sorry not a patch on the Takman and especially the Shinkho. I really do recommend you try a Shinkho attenuator, you can get them from Hi-Fi Collective, they are real ear opener. BUT at about 4 to 6 times the price of the DACT.
The art to using a passive is to design the power amp for them which is what I have done, extra voltage gain to replace that normally provided by a pre. High input load resistor (47k is about right) and low value input compensation capacitor 220pf to 470pf is ample.
Also there is nothing particularly special about low cap leads, they are just low cap, other things make leads special. The problem is the fad for Litz, it is now a marketing word, so it is this type of construction, largely done for marketing reasons, that makes high cap leads.
Tricky! I think, on balance, that I would agree. But I can also see the arguments from those who say that transducers (i.e. the beginning and end of the chain) are the most important components.
And so allow their benefits to be lost or grossly diluted by what's happening (or not) in the middle? ;)
Ensuring that the most musical information as possible has been extracted from the source format, whether digital or analogue (and crucially, maintaining its integrity throughout the replay chain) is the job of the source and control components and their partnering ancillaries, not the speakers.
The success of the above process is what determines the ability of a system to reproduce music accurately and believably, as opposed to it simply making a 'nice noise'.
The job of the loudspeakers is therefore simply to reproduce and maximise the accuracy of the signal they are given, therefore as long as they are of 'requisite quality', the integrity of the precious music signal will remain as intact as possible. After that, it's mainly about speaker size and its effect on physical aspects of the sonic presentation, and tonality.
If you do it the other way, and consider that the speakers are the most important part of a system, under the notion of 'that's what the sound comes out of', which incidentally I know you're not doing, and skimp on the quality of the source and control components, then the system may indeed make a 'nice sound', but it will never sound as musical as one where everything upstream has been painstakingly optimised.
I hate to use the old Linn adage of 'garbage in, garbage out', but essentially it is true. Basically, it's about ensuring that the 'musical message' remains as unsullied as possible, and most of that occurs before the signal reaches the loudspeakers.
Your own system, Martin, is a prime advert of that system-building philosophy, as you not only use top-notch equipment and speakers, but also ensure that the infrastructure in which they operate has been effectively optimised. That is precisely the AoS way :)
Those who pay scant, or even no attention to this, will never realise the true potential of the equipment or system they own.
Marco.
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 17:21
You are correct only two resistors in the signal path, there is a problem with surface mounts IMO.
I tried the DACT sorry not a patch on the Takman and especially the Shinkho. I really do recommend you try a Shinkho attenuator, you can get them from Hi-Fi Collective, they are real ear opener. BUT at about 4 to 6 times the price of the DACT.
The art to using a passive is to design the power amp for them which is what I have done, extra voltage gain to replace that normally provided by a pre. High input load resistor (47k is about right) and low value input compensation capacitor 220pf to 470pf is ample.
Also there is nothing particularly special about low cap leads, they are just low cap, other things make leads special. The problem is the fad for Litz, it is now a marketing word, so it is this type of construction, largely done for marketing reasons, that makes high cap leads.
I have tried some of the other Attenuators you mention over the years, and my own prefrence is still the dact, it has the shortest signal path of any, mainly because it uses surface mount components which are very small thus adding very little of their own character, again, this is all in MHO.
Anthony,TD...
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 17:25
Sounds like a similar system that may well also result in a constant output impedance. I have seen similar on my travels, but never had a chance to evaluate them.
The thing i liked about the relays doing the switching was the lack of wear & tear on the switching contacts. If i remember correctly it used BT type 47 relays which have gold plated contacts in a totally sealed environment. Must be good for reliabilty at the end of the day. Volume control was just a plain potentiometer feeding an ADC which decided which relays were doing what :cool:
hi mark,
you are correct, also, my preamp uses high current mosfets to drive the attenuator, and also the same type to drive the output stage. i have customers using my preamp with over 5mtrs of interconnect with no apparent drive problems at any frequency or volume position.
Anthony,TD...
Reid Malenfant
10-06-2011, 17:37
hi mark,
you are correct, also, my preamp uses high current mosfets to drive the attenuator, and also the same type to drive the output stage.
I'm guessing single ended class A with a constant current load? No feedback, just a buffer.. If so that's a decent way of doing things, very high input impedance with decent current driving capability.
As i say i'm guessing, but if i was going to buffer input & output it'd be the way i'd do it :eyebrows:
Why do you say this, is it from personal experience. Per usual there is a lot of misunderstanding and crap talk.
That's why I said "I find..."
I ran with a passive setup for a while back in the 1990s, experimenting with different values of potentiometer and different types of cable. My system was single-ended in those days. I could achieve a good level of transparency but I could not get the level of dynamic performance I was after, no matter what I tried. It seemed to me that a power amp wants a good kick up its input and there is too much impedance with the average passive setup. I discovered two things then: active preamps and balanced XLR connections. All my components have a balanced internal architecture and I've never looked back since then.
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 17:52
I'm guessing single ended class A with a constant current load? No feedback, just a buffer.. If so that's a decent way of doing things, very high input impedance with decent current driving capability.
As i say i'm guessing, but if i was going to buffer input & output it'd be the way i'd do it :eyebrows:
hi Mark,
not quite, mine does have Gain and feedback, but not in the conventional way, and has a flat frequency bandwidth to over 1meg :eyebrows:
AnthonyTD...
Reid Malenfant
10-06-2011, 18:13
Ok, i quit guessing, but that doesn't mean i can't imagine how it could be done :)
Yes it's not too difficult to get an incredibly wide bandwidth with discrete components as well as a totally "see through" sound, the same cannot usually be said of using op amps. There are some crazily expensive op amps out there though which i must admit not to have tried due to the expense, i prefer to work with discretes & frankly if spending the same or less cash i reckon the performance would be better anyway.
I'd like to see an op amp that could handle 20 or 30mA of quiescent current on it output stage with +/- 18V supplys. It's just not happening :eyebrows:
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 18:22
Ok, i quit guessing, but that doesn't mean i can't imagine how it could be done :)
Yes it's not too difficult to get an incredibly wide bandwidth with discrete components as well as a totally "see through" sound, the same cannot usually be said of using op amps. There are some crazily expensive op amps out there though which i must admit not to have tried due to the expense, i prefer to work with discretes & frankly if spending the same or less cash i reckon the performance would be better anyway.
I'd like to see an op amp that could handle 20 or 30mA of quiescent current on it output stage with +/- 18V supplys. It's just not happening :eyebrows:
There are few opamps now that will easily deliver those kind of currents, however, i have not tried them, but i have looked at their spec.
if i can find a datasheet on one i will post up a link.
A...
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 18:27
Here you go!
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa512.pdf
A...
Reid Malenfant
10-06-2011, 18:41
:lolsign: What are you like Anthony. Yeah there was the LM12 (http://www.national.com/opf/LM/LM12CL.html#Overview) back in the day as well...
No, what i'm on about is a discrete class A output stage & voltage gain stage that operates in class A rather than a power amplifier ;)
What i was attempting to get at is that i have never met an 8 or 16 pin DIL device that has a quiescent of 30mA & can handle rail voltages of +/- 18V while doing so ;) We were talking pre amps after all.
I'm sure one of those may well be able to be used as a buffer & never leave class A, but i'm sure smaller discrete transistors would be a damn sight faster & produce much lower distortion as they'd be biased quite high where as that thing would be nowhere near the linear region of the output transistors.
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 18:46
:lol:
well, you wanted high current capability!
:lolsign:
Seriously though i understand where your coming from, and yes, it is a difficult one.
Anthony,TD...
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 18:53
What about this one then ?
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa552.pdf
A...
Reid Malenfant
10-06-2011, 19:04
Noooo :doh: :eyebrows:
Noisy thing, yes it may output 200mA but i bet it's output stage bias is closer to 1mA.
You're just messing me about :ner:
You know precisely what i mean, at least i hope you do... All these things use copious amounts of feedback to reduce distortion to hopefully vanishing levels while at the same time robbing the music of life!
Low gain & low feedback with a circuit that naturally produces very small amounts of distortion is where it's at imo :cool:
As if you didn't know that anyway :eyebrows:
Nelson Pass is a designer with huge street cred
The proof is in the listening:
He also releases his designs to the diy audio community after a few years. The B1 is a great neutral pre-amp and I am sure someone could make a nice clone for you with premium parts and high quality case for under £500
anthonyTD
10-06-2011, 23:07
Noooo :doh: :eyebrows:
Noisy thing, yes it may output 200mA but i bet it's output stage bias is closer to 1mA.
You're just messing me about :ner:
You know precisely what i mean, at least i hope you do... All these things use copious amounts of feedback to reduce distortion to hopefully vanishing levels while at the same time robbing the music of life!
Low gain & low feedback with a circuit that naturally produces very small amounts of distortion is where it's at imo :cool:
As if you didn't know that anyway :eyebrows:
surely, i dont know what you mean!:eek:
:lolsign:
A...
alfie2902
10-06-2011, 23:24
5-10K is very nice budget & there's plenty of choice at that level!
I would of just said a 2nd hand Kondo M7 until a couple of weeks ago when I had a good listen to a Pure Sound L300, it sounded superb even overshadowed the M7 IMO!!
EDIT: Worked very well with a Nagra CDC at the front as well as a couple of Voyd/Io's & a nice Lenco with my SPU on!!
Quick comment to Marco - a good power amp is only a good power amp if it likes the speaker it's driving... In the bad old days, there were speakers with ridiculous loads (Linn's early 'briks & Sara's and 1.5 Ohm Apogee Ribbons come to mind) and the driving amps had t be almost purpose designed, especially for the latter Apogee models. In my opinion, which is open to modification by the way, transformer coupled valve amps really do prefer easy loads from 8 Ohms minimum, thus retaining some control. This is one area where "active" drive can have advantages, as the amp doesn't have to be over-designed to drive "anything" and can be exactly matched to the driver it's looking at..
Anyway, back to the preamp discussion. I do hope the OP realises that he doesn't have to spend many thousands to get a preamp which works properly. If the classic Nelson Pass designs could be made up for £500, this would probably equate to £5K in retail terms (and £20K in Naim's :lolsign:)
Quick comment to Marco - a good power amp is only a good power amp if it likes the speaker it's driving...
Absolutely, Dave, and that applies particularly to valve amps :)
I have to say though that I dislike the idea of speakers being a 'difficult load', as for me, it just seems rather 'arse about tit', and has a strangling effect on the music. I've never understood the concept. Why make things difficult and thus create a bottleneck - surely it makes more sense to make things easy...? :scratch:
The best speakers I've heard for accurate and convincing music reproduction, are those which are highly (or decently) efficient, an easy load, and are of overall high quality, as for me, they allow music to 'breathe' more easily. The quality valve amp/high-efficiency speaker route can be especially magical, which is why I've gone that way.
Incidentally, just to add to my point earlier, for me, the ideal system is not one which majors on the premise of source first or speaker first, or anything else first, but rather one that is well thought out and balanced. All the main components in my system hover around the £3-3.5k mark, in terms of what they cost, but sonically punch way, way above that.
So, balanced is definitely the best way to go, IMO.
I've yet to hear a system I could live with, where the vast majority of the budget has been spent on speakers, with significant compromises elsewhere, but I've heard plenty I could live with where the source and control components and ancillaries have been optimised, with say, a quality pair of stand-mount speakers, costing considerably less than anything else, employed at the end of the chain, where the 'musical message' has remained intact, and all that was missing was a richness of tone and some scale and impact, compared with what would've been possible from larger speakers of similar quality.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
11-06-2011, 11:04
Hi-Fi like life is a set of compromises. But there is one absolute in Hi-Fi *everything* that sits in the signal path or in the power supply path inteferes in one way or another with the music. There is only one thing better than the best component you can buy and that is no component. BUT we need things to make it work, and some people look for convenience and flexibility, so more things. Some people want belts and braces safety, so more things. Until eventually the music gets strangled. But you pays yer money and you takes yer choice.
Appreciate all the suggestions.
I do want a 'fit & forget' model.Not into modding. I used to have Croft power amps years ago - valves kept blowing!
Haven't even heard of Tube Distinctions - the power of the forum!
ARC ref 5? very nice I'm sure and haven't read a bad report - only real disadvantage is the 11K price tag.
I know that some valve designs can soften the sound which is definitely not for me. It's got to be something that will build on the darTZeel's strengths which are transparency and speed.
This isn't going to be easy.
If it was me with that money to spend I would at the very least have a demo of the best Croft has to offer in pre-amps before I paid a penny elsewhere.
Jac Hawk
12-06-2011, 22:34
It's true that bespoke offers much better vfm. The only problem is residual value eg
buy a bespoke for 5K maybe sell it 6 years later. Customers will say never heard of it - no street cred.
With a hyped branded label for 10K maybe sell for 4K later on.
Dosh may pan out even in the end.
If you can afford that sort of money for a pre amp, why are you worried about how much it will be worth in 6 years time?
If it was me, i would either build it myself using the best possible parts, or have one bespoke made, hi end audio gear is a lot of badge talk and swagger, it looks great when you list what you've got on a site such as this, for me i'd rather save a few grand and have something tailored to my specific requirements, so it won't be worth as much in 6 years but you won't have spent as much in the 1st place;)
It's going to be hard to find a pre amp that matches the darTZeel other than the darTZeel pre-amp.
Now I wonder why you didn't go for the darTZeel integrated instead of buying the power amp.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
12-06-2011, 23:46
Well, it seems to me a daft amount of money to spend on a pre, but what do I know. I would be pushed to actually find enough to build in the thing to justify asking for a price like that.
Richard
It's going to be hard to find a pre amp that matches the darTZeel other than the darTZeel pre-amp.
Now I wonder why you didn't go for the darTZeel integrated instead of buying the power amp.
It wasn't available at the time. The geezer doesn't make much stuff and doesn't offer a mk ll model every 9 months or so.
If you can afford that sort of money for a pre amp, why are you worried about how much it will be worth in 6 years time?
Mike, that's a slightly price-ist stance, don't you think? My preamp cost over £5k but do you really think I don't care about its resale value? Of course I do! I am now on my third Pass Labs preamp, having upgraded to the top model, and in each case I was able to do so because the resale value of my previous model was so well held. Just because I entirely justified five grand of my own dosh on a preamp, doesn't mean I have it to throw away :scratch:
If it was me, i would either build it myself using the best possible parts, or have one bespoke made, hi end audio gear is a lot of badge talk and swagger, it looks great when you list what you've got on a site such as this
Again, I'm really puzzled. Is that comment aimed at the likes of me? Do you think I've honed and fine tuned my system with the best components I can afford purely for the listing kudos in my sig?
There is no way that I could build an equivalent sounding preamp from available circuits (and I'm an electronics engineer). Some of the high end manufacturers that you accuse of being just 'badge talk' have very skilled designers, people like Nelson Pass and Wayne Colburn (Pass Labs) and Charlie Hansen (Ayre), with deserved reputations. Their pricing simply reflects the low sales volumes and high R&D costs involved. Face it: if you want the best, you have to pay for it. £500, a public domain circuit and a generic rack case are not going to cut it.
I sympathise with where Mike's coming from, Martin. No doubt the gear you use is expensive for the right reasons (in fact, I know it is, because I've heard it), but so much so-called 'hi-end' gear isn't.
IME, much of it flatters to deceive. For example, take your pick from the Absolute Sounds product portfolio... :rolleyes: :mental:
Sorry, Robin. I've yet to hear AS make what I would call an excellent sound at an audio show, considering the 'house-price hi-fi' on demo! Perhaps it sounds rather different in a home environment?
Face it: if you want the best, you have to pay for it.
Not necessarily, if you deal directly with a specialist manufacturer, and so therefore cut out the middlemen and masses of overheads, none of which make products sound any better. Do you honestly think that there's anything being mentioned here that the likes of Anthony TD couldn't produce for a fraction of the cost?
SPPV, mate - always think SPPV! ;)
Marco.
A lot of hifi pricing seems to have as much to do with 'what the market will bear' as anything else. Nowt wrong with that, it's the basis of capitalism, but it does mean that any attempt to justify the price of equipment via cost of components, R&D, labour, or any other metric is doomed to failure.
Take cables, for instance. Not that long ago, £100 for a pair of interconnects would have seemed excessive. As soon as the likes of Nordost began marketing cables at £1,000+ a pair, £100 began to look 'cheap' in the derogative sense. The latest issue of Plush reviews a pair of interconnects at £20,000. So the goalposts keep getting moved, and there's always a new price-point for cable manufacturers to aim at.
To return to to the OP, if I had £5k to spend on a pre (or any other component) I'd want to do a lot of listening, particularly in the context of the rest of my system, before parting with any money. Re-sale value is a bit of a red herring unless you're intending to do a lot of box-swapping, but reliability, backed up by long-term support if/when something goes wrong, is an absolute must.
Hi Joe,
A lot of hifi pricing seems to have as much to do with 'what the market will bear' as anything else. Nowt wrong with that, it's the basis of capitalism, but it does mean that any attempt to justify the price of equipment via cost of components, R&D, labour, or any other metric is doomed to failure.
The above in bold are all I'm interested in paying for these days when I buy hi-fi equipment.
I don't want to pay for a company's R&D, or their often huge overheads, or for the 'privilege' of dealing with middlemen, or for dealers margins, etc - I simply want to pay for what's 'under the hood', and the time and effort it took to put it there by the maker, so I deal direct with them. That way, the highest SPPV is guaranteed.
You're spot on with your "what the market will bear" remark. I'm afraid that this is the reality now with most hi-end hi-fi equipment, and so more often than not, one pays for the 'prestige value' of owning a particular badge, and there are indeed many examples of this.
Re-sale value is a bit of a red herring unless you're intending to do a lot of box-swapping, but reliability, backed up by long-term support if/when something goes wrong, is an absolute must.
I completely agree with both points, and of course particularly the latter.
Unless you're someone like Jerry, who box-swaps for fun, through a desire to gain experience and knowledge of using a multitude of equipment, but without the process turning into an unhealthy form of neurosis, I'd avoid such behaviour like the plague, because it rarely brings satisfaction and contentment.
Therefore, I NEVER buy equipment these days with the view of what it could be worth if/when I sell it on. Whatever I buy is bought as a long-term investment, and something I'm likely to enjoy music through for many years - and by which time it'll have more than paid for itself! ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
13-06-2011, 08:41
A lot of hifi pricing seems to have as much to do with 'what the market will bear' as anything else. Nowt wrong with that, it's the basis of capitalism, but it does mean that any attempt to justify the price of equipment via cost of components, R&D, labour, or any other metric is doomed to failure.
It all depends on which of the prices you mean. There are three prices for manufactured goods. They are factory gate price, wholesale price, and retail price. The factory gate price is a true reflection of cost of manufacturing. The retail price is only partly manufacturing cost. A large chunk of it is taken up by shipping costs from factory to retail shop, and taxes.
As for R&D, it's obvious you have no idea what you are writing about. Designing and getting CE/EMC/BSI approvals can costs tens of thousands of £ before you have even sold a single item. Without those approvals you won't be able to sell your goods in most markets. Those costs have to be added to the cost of the production.
A lot of hifi pricing seems to have as much to do with 'what the market will bear' as anything else. Nowt wrong with that, it's the basis of capitalism, but it does mean that any attempt to justify the price of equipment via cost of components, R&D, labour, or any other metric is doomed to failure.
In some cases I do agree. However, a lot of so-called cottage industry or bijou brands appear and then go out of business. So either their products were not up to it (certainly the case for some of them) or their pricing structure could not uphold the low sales volume, high employee cost etc. The problem with many high end brands is that they build in expensive countries like the USA, UK and rest of Europe where the infrastructure costs are sky high. The alternative is a Glenn Croft type one-man-and-his-dog operation where the quality is high but the volumes are never going to meet any kind of high demand.
To return to to the OP, if I had £5k to spend on a pre (or any other component) I'd want to do a lot of listening, particularly in the context of the rest of my system, before parting with any money.
Absolutely, and I've never advocated anything else. If it doesn't seem to be every bit worth its price to you, then walk away.
It all depends on which of the prices you mean. There are three prices for manufactured goods. They are factory gate price, wholesale price, and retail price. The factory gate price is a true reflection of cost of manufacturing. The retail price is only partly manufacturing cost. A large chunk of it is taken up by shipping costs from factory to retail shop, and taxes.
As for R&D, it's obvious you have no idea what you are writing about. Designing and getting CE/EMC/BSI approvals can costs tens of thousands of £ before you have even sold a single item. Without those approvals you won't be able to sell your goods in most markets. Those costs have to be added to the cost of the production.
I certainly know nothing at all about R&D costs, nor was I claiming to. They are certainly a valid component to factor into the price of an item, but the purchaser, unless he/she has specialised knowledge, is unlikely to be able to disentangle the different elements of a price, whether factory, wholesale, or retail, and quantify an 'appropriate' level of R&D, distributor's costs, marketing costs or whatever. But I find it hard to believe that R&D costs could account for the price differentials between, say, interconnects costing £100 a pair and those costing £20,000 a pair.
StanleyB
13-06-2011, 08:59
The majority of us accept that interconnects costs have little to do with cost of manufacturing. But using it as a yard stick to judge the cost of a preamp, which is what the thread is about, is really simplifying things to the bare bone.
But I find it hard to believe that R&D costs could account for the price differentials between, say, interconnects costing £100 a pair and those costing £20,000 a pair.
Indeed. Anyone who spent £20,000 on cables, under the notion that they were paying mostly for sonic performance, let alone R&D costs, would need their heads looked at...! :mental:
Marco.
if you want something commercially produced that will hold its value, is hand-made with loving care, sounds superb, and will also lend itself to tweaking (and there your sky's the limit), you can't go wrong with Croft. The one I'd recommend is the Micro 25R:
http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/micro25_R.htmlMarco.
+1 :thumbsup:
Very very pleased with mine. Nonetheless, the stock valves can be significantly bettered IMHO - after much time, labour and dollar I have settled on 2 matched pairs of NOS RCA 12AX7A/7025's (1960's vintage) and a single Brimar 6060 Yelow T 1950's vintage in the phono stage - sublime.
I have a couple of Brimar 6060 yellow T's and a quad of the RCA 12AX7A's for future spares as well :)
Steve
Jac Hawk
13-06-2011, 09:19
Mike, that's a slightly price-ist stance, don't you think? My preamp cost over £5k but do you really think I don't care about its resale value? Of course I do! I am now on my third Pass Labs preamp, having upgraded to the top model, and in each case I was able to do so because the resale value of my previous model was so well held. Just because I entirely justified five grand of my own dosh on a preamp, doesn't mean I have it to throw away :scratch:
Again, I'm really puzzled. Is that comment aimed at the likes of me? Do you think I've honed and fine tuned my system with the best components I can afford purely for the listing kudos in my sig?
There is no way that I could build an equivalent sounding preamp from available circuits (and I'm an electronics engineer). Some of the high end manufacturers that you accuse of being just 'badge talk' have very skilled designers, people like Nelson Pass and Wayne Colburn (Pass Labs) and Charlie Hansen (Ayre), with deserved reputations. Their pricing simply reflects the low sales volumes and high R&D costs involved. Face it: if you want the best, you have to pay for it. £500, a public domain circuit and a generic rack case are not going to cut it.
Not aimed at you at all mate, i'm not against anyone spending very high amounts of cash on equipment, it's your money at the end of the day, but the comment i was referring to suggested that bespoke kit wasn't worth spending high amounts on cos it would be harder to re-sell, i just thought that the sound should be the number one priority not what it might be worth in a few years time, also if you really like a piece of kit but can't quite afford it i understand you may have an upgrade path you want to take via a particular manufacturer but the comment i was referring to didn't mention that either.
i just thought that the sound should be the number one priority not what it might be worth in a few years time...
:clap:
Marco.
I sympathise with where Mike's coming from, Martin. No doubt the gear you use is expensive for the right reasons (in fact, I know it is, because I've heard it), but so much so-called 'hi-end' gear isn't.
IME, much of it flatters to deceive. For example, take your pick from the Absolute Sounds product portfolio... :rolleyes: :mental:
Sorry, Robin. I've yet to hear AS make what I would call an excellent sound at an audio show, considering the 'house-price hi-fi' on demo! Perhaps it sounds rather different in a home environment?
Not necessarily, if you deal directly with a specialist manufacturer, and so therefore cut out the middlemen and masses of overheads, none of which make products sound any better. Do you honestly think that there's anything being mentioned here that the likes of Anthony TD couldn't produce for a fraction of the cost?
SPPV, mate - always think SPPV! ;)
Marco.
Totally agree . I haven't heard an AS demo that's been much good either especially with Magico speakers. But at home it can be a different story.
What I am coming to realise however, is that a preamp might just be the most underrated and yet the most important part in the whole system chain (perhaps)
Hi Robin,
I'm glad you agree, as I was a little worried that what I wrote would've upset you, but your refreshing and open-minded attitude proves that you're not what I would call a 'hi-end hi-fi victim' :)
I'm sure that Magico speakers sound much better at home (as does most other kit, usually).
However, it's rather a sad day, is it not, when a supposedly knowledgeable and experienced professional company like AS don't appear to have the ability to demonstrate the equipment they are selling to anything like the best of its ability at shows, particularly when 'amateurs', like myself, can put together and demonstrate a system at Scalford Hall, largely made up of obsolete vintage gear, at a mere fraction of the cost of the average AS system, and yet have it very well received indeed?
Wossallthataboutthen?? :scratch:
Anyway, yes, a good preamp (read as one which interferes the least with the signal) is an absolute must, so consider your options very carefully before taking the plunge!
Incidentally, I believe you wanted some more information on Anthony Matthews, and his Tube Distinctions products. Have a read here: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_mate.htm
Tube Distinctions designs are built solely by hand and by a very talented and passionate audio designer, on his own, but do not cost the earth, because what you're paying for is what matters most: ultimate performance and reliability. It's expensive(ish), yes, but in terms of audio performance, his kit is the equal of any; and it is also the epitome of reliability.
Marco.
However, it's rather a sad day, is it not, when a supposedly knowledgeable and experienced professional company like AS don't appear to have the ability to demonstrate the equipment they are selling to anything like the best of its ability at shows
The last time I heard an AS demo of a >£100k system it sounded exactly like a disco system, I kid you not. My jaw dropped, but not in the way AS might have wanted.
hifi_dave
13-06-2011, 11:02
Some high-end gear (no names, no pack drill) is over engineered and therefore over priced. Some would also add and 'over here'.
Very often, the circuitry is extremely complicated to keep distortion and noise to vanishingly low levels. The equipment often measures very well, sure enough but often doesn't sound marvellous, as the price ticket would suggest.
Then all this electronic gubbins has to be housed in casework to match the inflated prices. Huge, heavy cases, massive heat-sinks and crafted front panels cost a fortune to make - in some cases more than the circuitry. Of course, all this 'male jewellery' adds nothing to the sound and some would suggest, actually degrades the sound.
You then need packaging to house these behemoths and marketing to make it sell. All this adds to the cost and does nothing at all to make the product sound better but probably doubles or even triples the selling price.
That's 'high end' for you.
That's 'high end' for you.
I guess what I'm fighting against is this notion that all high end is the same and they all rip off customers. Some differentiation is needed in the debate.
The last time I heard an AS demo of a >£100k system it sounded exactly like a disco system, I kid you not. My jaw dropped, but not in the way AS might have wanted.
Indeed, Martin. AS show demos are, quite frankly, an appalling advert for 'hi-end' audio, as all they achieve is to ably showcase precisely what's wrong with most of it! ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-06-2011, 11:18
It all depends on which of the prices you mean. There are three prices for manufactured goods. They are factory gate price, wholesale price, and retail price. The factory gate price is a true reflection of cost of manufacturing. The retail price is only partly manufacturing cost. A large chunk of it is taken up by shipping costs from factory to retail shop, and taxes.
As for R&D, it's obvious you have no idea what you are writing about. Designing and getting CE/EMC/BSI approvals can costs tens of thousands of £ before you have even sold a single item. Without those approvals you won't be able to sell your goods in most markets. Those costs have to be added to the cost of the production.
hi all,
i have to agree with Stanley here,
R&D costs can be frighteningly high when developing a new product, especialy the testing to get it through aproval to be able to sell it world wide.
i have recently experienced this first hand with the latest products i have been working on.
The final price of the unit has to include these costs along with the low [ish] item sales issue, due to the specialist market demand, and the final cost of the item.
Anthony,TD...
alfie2902
13-06-2011, 11:37
Hmmm... I find it odd that some of you don't want to pay towards R&D costs!!
After a piece of kit has been designed around measurements the designer can spend considerable time fine tuning the product which can result in partial & even total rebuilds before the product is finished & sounds acceptable to the designer & his vision. Then as mentioned above by Anthony & Richard there's the high price of testing to reach the standards needed for resale!
Surely if you want the product to be the best it can be at the price? paying a little towards R&D is only right! Designers have to eat too!
Hi Alfie,
Hmmm... I find it odd that some of you don't want to pay towards R&D costs!!
Allow me to rephrase that: I don't want to pay towards R&D costs, if I can avoid it. That is why I avoid buying brand new commercial hi-fi equipment.
For example, if I asked Anthony TD or Nick G to build me a 'no compromise' preamp, I would pay them simply for the parts costs and their labour, and know that I'd end up owning a superb sounding and utterly reliable piece of equipment, the equal of any design in the commercial 'hi-end' audio market, with unlimited product back-up, to boot.
I believe that it's called a 'win-win' situation, and I'm rather fond of those! ;)
However, if either of them tried to skin me for "R&D costs", I'd tell them in the nicest possible way where to shove them!! :lolsign:
Marco.
P.S In reference to Anthony, what's written above would not apply to his latest products, which are a different commercial entity.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 12:11
I still say by far the biggest problem is the 50% that a retailer takes. After that, if it is imported, the 30% an importer / distributor takes.
There are better business models now, even for distributors, to more suit a small enthusiast / hobbyist industry, which is what we are now.
Purite Audio seems a good example of an importer / distributor thinking laterally about how to present a product to the market. Anything AS imports and distributes is more about retaining the Wimbledon Womble lifestyle and watch collection.
Hi Robin,
I'm glad you agree, as I was a little worried that what I wrote would've upset you, but your refreshing and open-minded attitude proves that you're not what I would call a 'hi-end hi-fi victim' :)
I'm sure that Magico speakers sound much better at home (as does most other kit, usually).
However, it's rather a sad day, is it not, when a supposedly knowledgeable and experienced professional company like AS don't appear to have the ability to demonstrate the equipment they are selling to anything like the best of its ability at shows, particularly when 'amateurs', like myself, can put together and demonstrate a system at Scalford Hall, largely made up of obsolete vintage gear, at a mere fraction of the cost of the average AS system, and yet have it very well received indeed?
Wossallthataboutthen?? :scratch:
Anyway, yes, a good preamp (read as one which interferes the least with the signal) is an absolute must, so consider your options very carefully before taking the plunge!
Incidentally, I believe you wanted some more information on Anthony Matthews, and his Tube Distinctions products. Have a read here: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_mate.htm
Tube Distinctions designs are built solely by hand and by a very talented and passionate audio designer, on his own, but do not cost the earth, because what you're paying for is what matters most: ultimate performance and reliability. It's expensive(ish), yes, but in terms of audio performance, his kit is the equal of any; and it is also the epitome of reliability.
Marco.
No problem Marco:) My head is only slightly up my arse and I can still see some daylight!
What pees me off is when someone tells me they can source an amp better than the darTZeel for a tenth of the price and I've wasted my money. A quarter of the price - well fair enough :)
On the subject of resale value the reason I would factor it in is because, don't know about you but my tastes have changed over the years.
In the past I've had Croft monoblocks, Bow Technologies from Hifidave, EAR integrated from him also (bet he wonders who the hell I am) I only changed because I wanted a different type of sound which I thought was 'it' at the time.. I agree that a good design is timeless but it seems my tastes aren't:)
For example, if I asked Anthony TD or Nick G to build me a 'no compromise' preamp, I would pay them simply for the parts costs and their labour, and know that I'd end up owning a superb sounding and utterly reliable piece of equipment, the equal of any design in the 'hi-end' audio market, with unlimited product back-up, to boot.
Though in part the value/cost of our labour is partly set by our knowledge/experence, which is gained by doing R&D. I know what you mean, but someone does have to design stuff sometime :-)
I still say by far the biggest problem is the 50% that a retailer takes. After that, if it is imported, the 30% an importer / distributor takes.
Agreed but . . . I've done an amount of personal import direct from the USA and by the time duty and VAT and 'handling fees' are added, you've still paid a lot more than US retail. You begin to see where it all goes and HM Govt. certainly takes a sizeable chunk.
Yup, I'm with ya there, Nick... If it helps with the "R&D" costs, next time you build me something, or modify my kit, I know of a rather tasteful 'gentleman's club' that I can get you into for free.....
But that's more S&M, than R&D :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-06-2011, 12:29
I still say by far the biggest problem is the 50% that a retailer takes. After that, if it is imported, the 30% an importer / distributor takes.
There are better business models now, even for distributors, to more suit a small enthusiast / hobbyist industry, which is what we are now.
Purite Audio seems a good example of an importer / distributor thinking laterally about how to present a product to the market. Anything AS imports and distributes is more about retaining the Wimbledon Womble lifestyle and watch collection.
Hi all,
i have to say that i have never given any dealers more than 30% mark up on any of my products and they have been happy with that, nor have i ever given any equipment to a dealer, or a reviewer as "a reward" for their support.
However, i understand and completely agree that good dealers deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty and promotion of one's equipment if they genuinely rate it, and would be happy to use it themselves.
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 12:43
Hi all,
i have to say that i have never given any dealers more than 30% mark up on any of my products and they have been happy with that, nor have i ever given any equipment to a dealer, or a reviewer as "a reward" for their support.
However, i understand and completely agree that good dealers deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty and promotion of one's equipment if they genuinely rate it, and would be happy to use it themselves.
Anthony,TD...
The contents of a lot of magazines stock rooms seemed to regularly end up being passed around the staff / insiders until it ended up getting lost. It was always a nod and a wink that it wouldn't be asked for back.
That was in the naughty 90's and before. I think it has been cleaned up a bit more recently.
Do you think comments such as those could be construed by some as libellous? ;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 13:03
If I said Joe Blogs or whoever did this then it would be, if it was made up. Using the generic term "magazines" is ok as even if it happened once it would make it "fair comment". BUT it is not made up, it is provable, and many other manufacturers / distributors would back it up in private conversation ;)
Libel is a funny old thing, you have to prove you have lost something due to the libel. Reputation is one thing, but if you are not in the public eye then the courts take a dim view of a case being brought. If it is a situation of a trading company being damaged financially by libel then they take it very seriously though.
hifi_dave
13-06-2011, 13:09
I still say by far the biggest problem is the 50% that a retailer takes. After that, if it is imported, the 30% an importer / distributor takes.
There are better business models now, even for distributors, to more suit a small enthusiast / hobbyist industry, which is what we are now.
Purite Audio seems a good example of an importer / distributor thinking laterally about how to present a product to the market. Anything AS imports and distributes is more about retaining the Wimbledon Womble lifestyle and watch collection.
I don't know of any products on which I make 50%. The chains may well do on certain mass market, highly marketed products but it isn't the norm and never has been in my experience.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 13:13
Deja vu - this is exactly the same conversation we had a week or two back. I gave 50% when I dealt with retailers pre 2000 and so did other manufacturers I spoke to. If your margins have eroded so much since then then list your agencies and the profit margins they give you.
I would certainly agree that these days 50% is not likely the norm on 'hi-end' 2-channel audio gear :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 13:16
So what is?
Dunno, Richard - I'm not a hi-fi dealer. I should imagine that it's much nearer 20%, than 50%, on hi-end 2-channel audio equipment.
When I worked in management in the hi-fi retail sector in the 80s, even selling mass-produced mainstream pap, for an outlet of House of Fraser, the mark-up then was only 15-18%.
The margins, however, were rather more 'interesting' for cosmetics... I was dating the manageress of the store's cosmetics department then, and we used to, erm, 'compare notes' on a number of matters ;)
Dave,
If you don't mind me asking, what was your margin on Naim gear, when you sold it? :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
13-06-2011, 14:57
Deja vu - this is exactly the same conversation we had a week or two back. I gave 50% when I dealt with retailers pre 2000 and so did other manufacturers I spoke to. If your margins have eroded so much since then then list your agencies and the profit margins they give you.
Deja vu indeed !!!
I've explained my profit margins more than once on this Forum and it's nowhere near 50% of retail and never has been in my 40 years of selling Hi-Fi.
How about telling us how much a manufacturer selling direct makes on his products ?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 15:52
Now it really is Deja Vu *exactly* the same conversation, so why don't you look at the original replies, or does the same thing have to be repeated every two weeks or so. I will go find the links to the posts to remind you.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 16:00
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11391&page=5
Try from post 42
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 16:04
Dunno, Richard - I'm not a hi-fi dealer. I should imagine that it's much nearer 20%, than 50%, on hi-end 2-channel audio equipment.
When I worked in management in the hi-fi retail sector in the 80s, even selling mass-produced mainstream pap, for an outlet of House of Fraser, the mark-up then was only 15-18%.
The margins, however, were rather more 'interesting' for cosmetics... I was dating the manageress of the store's cosmetics department then, and we used to, erm, 'compare notes' on a number of matters ;)
Dave,
If you don't mind me asking, what was your margin on Naim gear, when you sold it? :)
Marco.
Marco if you offered any hi-fi dealer 20% he would laugh you out of the door.
Just phoned a couple of old mates in different companies and it is still 40 to 50% for electronics apart from a couple of companies, one who you have Naimed which give 35% plus early settlement incentives. BUT many retailer contracts give higher margin for higher sales. Cables and accessories are 60 to 70% minimum and some go as high as 100% to try and get the dealer to sell them.
Could you give a valid example of the profit margin on the kit you sell currently, then Dave, instead of saying "It's nowhere near 50% of retail" - if not, then what is it? Just for reference, that's all :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
13-06-2011, 16:08
I know exactly what was said, I don't need a link. Thank you.
I will point out that you keep repeating the same thing, over and over, about dealers making 50%.
This isn't true, nothing like.
Maybe, you gave dealers that sort of profit but I can't recall any other manufacturer - large or small doing the same. It certainly isn't the case with my suppliers.
I wonder what sort of profit margin a manufacturer, selling direct makes. Is that half of retail ?
hifi_dave
13-06-2011, 16:15
Could you give a valid example of the profit margin on the kit you sell currently, then Dave, instead of saying "It's nowhere near 50% of retail" - if not, then what is it? Just for reference, that's all :)
Marco.
I've told you previously and mentioned on this forum that the usual profit margin is 30%, gross.
If we take Rega, for example, I get 30% of retail but I have to pay carriage which reduces this margin. From this 30% you have to deduct the VAT on the profit and 99 times out of 100, there is 3-4% c/card commission on the total price.
Some of my smaller suppliers give less than this in order for the products to be sold at a favourable price. I make less, the manufacturer makes less and the customer is happy.
That's cool, Dave, so it wasn't 50% then, as Richard has claimed (and indeed I didn't think it was either) We just needed an actual figure - cheers! :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 16:28
So I have just been lied to by four different companies :scratch:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-06-2011, 16:37
I know exactly what was said, I don't need a link. Thank you.
I will point out that you keep repeating the same thing, over and over, about dealers making 50%.
This isn't true, nothing like.
Maybe, you gave dealers that sort of profit but I can't recall any other manufacturer - large or small doing the same. It certainly isn't the case with my suppliers.
I wonder what sort of profit margin a manufacturer, selling direct makes. Is that half of retail ?
I repeat again I price my product exactly the same way I always have. Three times direct cost (not including labour) for cheaper amps, times two for speakers (less labour). Four times for the more expensive amps and cables, times two for Sound Cords and LS2 as they are partial loss leaders.
If I was selling through retail the resultant price would be doubled. Normal companies usually factor times ten and the like of Linn and Naim times twenty.
Rega are notorious for lower margins given to dealers as they consider themselves a must have agency.
So I have just been lied to by four different companies :scratch:
Nope. Obviously, Dave doesn't deal with the companies you spoke to - simples. If Dave says he gets 30% gross, that's good enough for me :)
Anyway, we've dwelt on this subject long enough, chaps, and have already wandered wildly off-topic, so let's rein it back in now, cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Indeed: back to Robin. Do you have a shortlist to listen to?
anthonyTD
13-06-2011, 17:25
The contents of a lot of magazines stock rooms seemed to regularly end up being passed around the staff / insiders until it ended up getting lost. It was always a nod and a wink that it wouldn't be asked for back.
That was in the naughty 90's and before. I think it has been cleaned up a bit more recently.
I will try again with this, :rolleyes:EVERY PIECE OF KIT that i have ever supplied to be reviewd i have recieved back.
It never got chance to be handed about until it was "forgotten about" and if a dealer of mine liked a unit that much then he would be sold the demo unit at a demo unit price, and in my experience, they have always been happy to do so.
Anthony,TD...
Alan Sircom
13-06-2011, 18:04
The contents of a lot of magazines stock rooms seemed to regularly end up being passed around the staff / insiders until it ended up getting lost. It was always a nod and a wink that it wouldn't be asked for back.
That was in the naughty 90's and before. I think it has been cleaned up a bit more recently.
I don't officially post on UK fora anymore thanks to having my wings clipped, but I got a pass for this one.
Stock rooms routinely get filled up with uncollected products. There is only a finite amount of storage space in a magazine's stock room cage. Despite asking for collections regularly, every few years we used to tell manufacturers their products were effectively written off after a certain period, clear the decks and auction off a lot of equipment for charity. We'd usually double up with one or more of the other magazines and do this, sometimes at a staff party.
It happened at Dennis, Future and Highbury. I'm pretty sure the same thing happened at IPC, emap/Bauer and Haymarket and I'm pretty sure the same is happening today at publishing houses around the world.
I raised a lot of money for ICRF back in the day because of this, until a rogue company decided to ask us for a product back the day after the date of the sale. The giveaway was we managed to return the product and give the money back to the person who won the auction and yet no-one collected the product. AFAIK, it's still there.
Now... farewell again!
Interesting... Nice of you to pop in again, though, and say hello :)
Marco.
Now... farewell again!
Nice to see you here again, Alan. Don't go so soon!
Indeed: back to Robin. Do you have a shortlist to listen to?
Not exactly. A friend brought over a small VTL pre today which delivered a fairly bland presentation. Nothing much wrong but clearly out of its' depth.
Hope to listen to a Ref 5 next week and if that doesn't float my boat I'll' stick :)
Would have tried a puresound L300 but too many valves. It'll have to be hybrid or solid state.
Anyway will let folk Know how the ARC shapes up which MR. C suggested.
Would have looked at the Pass Labs but it's a 2 box jobbie and no room on the rack. I'm not stacking them!
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-06-2011, 18:05
I don't officially post on UK fora anymore thanks to having my wings clipped, but I got a pass for this one.
Stock rooms routinely get filled up with uncollected products. There is only a finite amount of storage space in a magazine's stock room cage. Despite asking for collections regularly, every few years we used to tell manufacturers their products were effectively written off after a certain period, clear the decks and auction off a lot of equipment for charity. We'd usually double up with one or more of the other magazines and do this, sometimes at a staff party.
It happened at Dennis, Future and Highbury. I'm pretty sure the same thing happened at IPC, emap/Bauer and Haymarket and I'm pretty sure the same is happening today at publishing houses around the world.
I raised a lot of money for ICRF back in the day because of this, until a rogue company decided to ask us for a product back the day after the date of the sale. The giveaway was we managed to return the product and give the money back to the person who won the auction and yet no-one collected the product. AFAIK, it's still there.
Now... farewell again!
Every reviewer I ever met and went to his house was using equipment on loan from the stock room or left with him after the review.
I must admit my time was back in the late 90's and back to the early 80's. I haven't spoken to a reviewer or magazine since 2000 apart from a couple of personal friends. It was manufacturers fault largely as the free mention of the reviewers reference system was always a big incentive, thankfully neither the magazines nor the reviewers have the power over the industry they used to have back then.
Nope. Obviously, Dave doesn't deal with the companies you spoke to - simples. If Dave says he gets 30% gross, that's good enough for me :)
Anyway, we've dwelt on this subject long enough, chaps, and have already wandered wildly off-topic, so let's rein it back in now, cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I was busy yesterday and couldn't reply, but the truth is somewhere between the two extremes quoted by dave and Richard in my experience. Bigger speaker manufacturers do give huge profits to the "chains" as long as a comprehensive range and depth of stock is carried. Electronics manufacturers have traditionally never given margins much above 30 to 35% less perhaps a little quick payment settlement, which many dealers these days don't take up (or they try to bend the rules somewhat..). I agree with Richard on wire products, the margins are huge because of the "deals" that dealers often have to give to get the sale.
What bugs me today are apparently high prices for a few components in a small box and sold directly, leaving the dealer out of the loop, the selling price laden with "intellectual property rights.." We've been there before on this latter point, so I'd better shut up too, but I would say to Richard that discerning posters here, if looking for new gear, would usually seek out a decent, honest small dealer working on low overheads and stocking equipment that they truly believe in. IMO, Dave has always been one of these and of course there are others too, dotted around and about the country.
As for Rega, they don't offer the huge mark-ups either for themselves or for their dealers I remember of old. The sanctimonious arrogance of old has genuinely given way to something a bit more optimistic for the future and their products reflect this I think..
Would have looked at the Pass Labs but it's a 2 box jobbie and no room on the rack. I'm not stacking them!
Understood. Where is Aqua Sulis, anyway? :scratch:
Forget it, I've just twigged :)
alfie2902
16-06-2011, 01:05
Not exactly. A friend brought over a small VTL pre today which delivered a fairly bland presentation. Nothing much wrong but clearly out of its' depth.
Hope to listen to a Ref 5 next week and if that doesn't float my boat I'll' stick :)
Would have tried a puresound L300 but too many valves. It'll have to be hybrid or solid state.
Anyway will let folk Know how the ARC shapes up which MR. C suggested.
Would have looked at the Pass Labs but it's a 2 box jobbie and no room on the rack. I'm not stacking them!
It may be huge & have about 10 valves or so, but it sounded sublime a few weekends ago a true jaw dropping moment was had. You should have a listen, it could well be the best pre-amp you never heard :)
This looks tasty
http://www.combak.net/reimyo/CAT-777MKII.html
Is there a UK dealer you can borrow one from?
Spectral Morn
17-06-2011, 16:44
Contact Select Audio and ask for Stephen Riddick.
Regards D S D L
He's the guy who sold me my Pass Labs preamp. Great bloke and very knowledgable.
Spectral Morn
17-06-2011, 17:04
He's the guy who sold me my Pass Labs preamp. Great bloke and very knowledgable.
Yes he his. I have a lot of time for Stephen, he is a no bull shit kind of guy, tells it how it is.
Regards D S D L
Trying the ARC ref 5 now and it's very nice :)
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 17:58
I have never heard an ARC kit that didn't sound very good indeed ;) I see it's about the same age as my MP1, gotta love that display :eyebrows: The only thing that bugs me about it is that it never remembers to dim it down to lowest brightness (which is what i prefer) & the fact that it always defaults to one input, not remembering where it was last set to.
Other than that i've no complaints what so ever :cool: I can live with the above, it's no big deal in reality..
What I like about the Pass is that it dims down to zero (my preference) and always remembers what it's set to by dint of not having a power switch - it's meant to stay powered up!
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 20:05
What I like about the Pass is that it dims down to zero (my preference) and always remembers what it's set to by dint of not having a power switch - it's meant to stay powered up!
Yes, i could do that trick if i wasn't using a power hungry P600 Power Plant Martin. The MP1 can be set to no display to, i guess the remembering thing would be out of the window as well if i didn't have to shut it down :eyebrows:
The main drawback of the Ref 5 is the price though I gather resale values hold up well.
I'm not up with Absolute Sound's current pricing. How much is it?
wolkoppie
22-06-2011, 22:25
Hi, not sure if you have tried a Gryphon pre-amp in your system - I have one that you are welcome to demo - also has an excellent phono stage (Orestes). It is a Gryphon Electra 2 box pre amp true dual mono - drop me a line if you want to give it a try
By the way, the Ref 5 is huge. I'm not sure how you can reject the Pass for being a big two-box preamp but be evaluating the Audio Research :)
It's full of Clarity caps too so must be good...... :scratch:
Clarity Caps RULE - you should try some in your Croft ;)
Marco.
By the way, the Ref 5 is huge. I'm not sure how you can reject the Pass for being a big two-box preamp but be evaluating the Audio Research :)
Well that's true but it is only 1 box so requires only 1 shelf which is all I have spare. As I said before, don't fancy stacking 2 boxes on 1 shelf. :)
Hi, not sure if you have tried a Gryphon pre-amp in your system - I have one that you are welcome to demo - also has an excellent phono stage (Orestes). It is a Gryphon Electra 2 box pre amp true dual mono - drop me a line if you want to give it a try
Really appreciate the offer. I'll see how this pans out first :)
Digitrax
23-06-2011, 14:40
Clarity Caps RULE - you should try some in your Croft ;)
Marco.
As it happens, I'm currently designing a tube pre for the company I work for (Leon Speakers) and was auditioning coupling caps in the prototype. I built two identical versions of the proto with two matched sets of identical tubes, but used different couplers in each. I then blind A/B'd them for our "listening crew" - (Leon has a group of employees which have been through Harman's ear training software course - those that passed Level 3 or higher become part of an evaluation team) - and the winner of each pair then went on to become one of the next pairing; all were 5µF (or as close as possible). Here is how things panned out:
When used alone:
#1 - V-Cap TFTF (3.3µF)
#2 - Clarity Cap MR
#3 - Auricap 600V
Then, tested with...
first, a Wima MKP10,
then, a Vishay MKP1837,
...bypass cap (both 0.1µF) in parallel
#1 - Auricap 600V w/Vishay
#2 - V-Cap TFTF w/Wima
#3 - Clarity Cap MR w/Vishay
Of course, YMMV, but it seems to me that a $40 (USD) cap with a $2 bypass is an awfully good value. Nothing against Clarity - they are EXCELLENT caps (and, of course, what you look for in sonics may not be what the evaluation group values most - I personally will sacrifice tightness in the bass or extension/clarity in the highs for liquidity in the midrange and preferred Mundorf Silver and V-Cap OIMP to all of the above, but that's me).
Interesting though, isn't it?
Clarity Caps RULE - you should try some in your Croft ;)
Marco.
Why, and show my sources up badly???
I cannot start something I cannot finish, especially financially, so Glenn's choice of "inferior" components will have to stay as-is :lol: I still think my preamp is as transparent to the source as I need right now (getting the valves right did it for me) and all the ARC stuff I've ever heard has been severely coloured in some way and not really "high" in "fidelity" to the signal fed them. Perhaps ARC have "improved" their products' signal-processing attributes on recent models, but Glenn was way ahead and still is in my view, clarity caps or not!!!! and despite not having the bling casework or fancy fittings.
Hi Andrew,
As it happens, I'm currently designing a tube pre for the company I work for (Leon Speakers) and was auditioning coupling caps in the prototype. I built two identical versions of the proto with two matched sets of identical tubes, but used different couplers in each. I then blind A/B'd them for our "listening crew" - (Leon has a group of employees which have been through Harman's ear training software course - those that passed Level 3 or higher become part of an evaluation team) - and the winner of each pair then went on to become one of the next pairing; all were 5µF (or as close as possible). Here is how things panned out:
When used alone:
#1 - V-Cap TFTF (3.3µF)
#2 - Clarity Cap MR
#3 - Auricap 600V
Then, tested with...
first, a Wima MKP10,
then, a Vishay MKP1837,
...bypass cap (both 0.1µF) in parallel
#1 - Auricap 600V w/Vishay
#2 - V-Cap TFTF w/Wima
#3 - Clarity Cap MR w/Vishay
Of course, YMMV, but it seems to me that a $40 (USD) cap with a $2 bypass is an awfully good value. Nothing against Clarity - they are EXCELLENT caps (and, of course, what you look for in sonics may not be what the evaluation group values most - I personally will sacrifice tightness in the bass or extension/clarity in the highs for liquidity in the midrange and preferred Mundorf Silver and V-Cap OIMP to all of the above, but that's me).
Interesting though, isn't it?
Yes, definitely, so thanks for that. My reply to Dave, though, was entirely tongue in cheek ;)
You're right, there is no one 'best' capacitor, the same as there is no one 'best' piece of equipment. It's all to do with personal taste and synergy within different circuits and systems.
Clarity Cap MRs are amongst my favourites, but I use all sorts in my equipment. I'm not surprised that the V-Caps did well, as I find that teflon caps are the most musical sounding and sonically transparent - not cheap, though! I use SCR Teflons as couplers in my Croft, and Mundorf Tubecaps as smoothers for the PSU - works a treat.
I'd also like to play around with some top-notch paper-in-oils, and fancy trying the AudioNote silver-foils somewhere, but I'm not sure where yet!
High-quality polys, like the CC MRs, however, can work superbly well in different applications. I use them in the crossovers for my speakers, where they produce stunning results, and will be using their PCS range for PSU duties in my Copper valve amp:
http://www.icwltd.co.uk/power4/image.htm
:cool:
Marco.
Hi Dave,
Why, and show my sources up badly???
Lol - I guess that's one way of putting it! :eyebrows:
I still think my preamp is as transparent to the source as I need right now (getting the valves right did it for me) and all the ARC stuff I've ever heard has been severely coloured in some way and not really "high" in "fidelity" to the signal fed them. Perhaps ARC have "improved" their products' signal-processing attributes on recent models, but Glenn was way ahead and still is in my view, clarity caps or not!!!! and despite not having the bling casework or fancy fittings.
Oh, don't worry, I wouldn't disagree! ;)
Marco.
Digitrax
25-06-2011, 14:30
...High-quality polys, like the CC MRs, however, can work superbly well in different applications. I use them in the crossovers for my speakers, where they produce stunning results, and will be using their PCS range for PSU duties...
Actually, the lowly Solen FastCap is a wonderful PS cap post-regulator --- beats out most of the (more expensive) competitors IMHO. Another great value.
Thanks for all the advice. Settled for the ref 5 in the end. Sounds very 'right' in the system and quite different from the Karan. The presentation suits the system well + I can't be arsed to investigate further. And as it's a big box it must be good eh? :)
Glad you're happy with it.
+1
Remember though, that a "HiFi" grade audio product shouldn't have an individual "presentation" at all. If it does, it isn't high in fidelity to the source fed it..... many users of "Top End" tend to forget that ;)
hifinutt
05-07-2011, 04:51
By the way, the Ref 5 is huge. I'm not sure how you can reject the Pass for being a big two-box preamp but be evaluating the Audio Research :)
i nearly bought a mcintosh c500 2 box tube amp recently s/h . now thats huge , its 2 foot deep and wouldn`t fit on my rack
+1
Remember though, that a "HiFi" grade audio product shouldn't have an individual "presentation" at all. If it does, it isn't high in fidelity to the source fed it..... many users of "Top End" tend to forget that ;)
Hmm I couldn't say whether this pre is an 'open window' or not. Whatever it's doing, more detail is coming through than before in a way that my ears appreciate. I'm not convinced that 'true to the source' is necessarily a good thing. A friend brought his sax around once and a quick tune in the room illustrated how hard and loud it sounds without a huge space to breath. Same goes for many instruments. Not much point in that type of reproduction in the average home.
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