View Full Version : Vantage Audio platter upgrade for Technics SL-1210
My upgraded platter arrived back from Vantage Audio (VA) today and having had a half-day I've been able to get it installed and spinning.
According to Richard at VA the "Level 2P incorporates a dual-layer alloy/copper plate bonded to the existing platter. This modification allows for an improvement in vibration control of the motor / platter / tonearm closed-loop and is also designed to keep the overall moment of inertia of the platter assembly within the design parameters of the motor and control circuit. This is important as it will minimize any margin of error over which the quartz servo speed control circuit has to operate."
The first thing to say is that this is a very high quality upgrade. I think it looks the muts' nuts :drool: As you will see from the photos the platter has a mirror finish copper top plate. It is a little thinner than the Achromat I was using before and so well worth checking the arm height/VTA. As I was awaiting the platter I had left my arm a little high and with the new platter installed the Decca is now perfectly horizontal as per my miniature spirit level.
I've had an opportunity to listen to 4 or 5 well loved and known albums already and I am in no doubt this is a significant upgrade.
The first thing I noticed was a big reduction in surface noise. The Decca is not the quietist transducer in this area but it is now very much less noticeable.
At the end of the initial listening session my notes (yes that sad/anal retentive) :wheniwasaboy: I had summed up the improvements as better timing, separation and clarity.
On Black Swan (Bert Jansch) there is a more definite "twang" to plucked guitar strings and more obvious "shaping" and extension of certain notes. Vocals sound a bit fuller and more "rounded" and have more clarity. Tracks on this album can have a tendency to "shout" a bit where there are complex and loud alto sax lines and this was calmed down with the new platter. Cymbals shimmer more and tambourines jingle - there is a very definite difference.
Listening to "busy" tracks on Dark Side and the (NAIM) music collection I wrote that instruments don't "bleed" into each other so much (ink jet printers of old? - you get the idea) :scratch: Again on Dark Side there is deep bass reverb which I had not heard before and on an Antonio Foricone track I could feel double bass slap as opposed to the strings being plucked -again I'd not heard this before.
So I guess what these tiny differences are pointing to is a more stable rotation speed and a reduction in "hunting" of the motor.
I didn't notice any change in stereo imaging or in the overall "tone" of the pieces but the combined effect was to make the music (whatever type) more focused and detailed.
I listend with and without a clamp (see my post "to clamp or not to clamp") and the difference with the upgrade platter was even more marked - adding the clamp dulled the sound - it became less focussed and less detailed, bass became muddier - definitely better sans clamp.
I am very happy with the improvement. Not sure if there is a synergy between the VA bearing upgrade and the VA platter upgrade but Richard only recommended I try the platter upgrade once I was happy with the effects of the bearing upgrade.
So there we go - another very fine highly professional high quality upgrade to the Technics from Vantage Audio that not only brings audible sonic improvements but looks beautiful as well.
:smoking:
I now have an "as new" Achromat for sale if anyone is in the market :santa:
Looks great Stephen. Are you using your lps directly on the metal?
Yes Colin, direct onto the copper. I asked Richard about this and he said that this is fine and that no other platter is necessary but there is no reason not to add the Achromat for example on top if one wants to. I have not done that comparison as I really do like the sound as is - as you kindly say it also looks great.
Steve
Ive kept an eye out for your review and im pleased you used Black Swan as a reference. Have to call Richard tomorrow now.
Hi Steve,
Nice one - always good to have more choice, especially for those who don't want to go the whole hog with an MN platter. It looks very nice, so I'm pleased that this has been a successful upgrade for you :)
Yes Colin, direct onto the copper. I asked Richard about this and he said that this is fine and that no other platter is necessary but there is no reason not to add the Achromat for example on top if one wants to. I have not done that comparison as I really do like the sound as is...
Before you sell your Achromat, I would strongly recommend that you try it on top, as you *may* find that the sound improves again. IME, the Achromat is one of the best interfaces with vinyl that there is. You must test this though on a variety of different music over, say, a period of a week, and then swap back again, to get a proper handle on what is happening, with and without the Achromat.
Just make sure that you 'bond' the Achromat to the copper surface of your platter with strips of double-sided tape, or use some Vaseline - that makes a big difference to the effectiveness of the Achromat!
Incidentally, does your copper plate have a label recess cut out? If not, then you'll definitely need to use another mat, as records won't sit properly flat on the platter.
Anyway, enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Respect is due Steve, that looks well cool- can you give cost or do we E-mail Richard- again nice write up and glad you like it:stalks:
can you give cost
Hi Andy.
Quote from an earlier email to me:
"1) We pepare one of the spare platters we have here, however as these are not in "as new condition" they require some further preparatory and cosmetic work to restore them to minty condition (this preparatory work is not charged to clients) so there may be a longer turn-around time.
2) When all is ready we will ship you the modified platter. This will give you the chance to listen and compare with the OEM platter.
3) If all is to your satisfaction you can then send back to us your existing platter on an exchange basis.
4) If not to your "taste" you can return our modified platter and we can discuss further which direction you may like to go.
The cost of the Level 2P modification (OEM platter with bonded dual-layer to top face) is £ 207 *** (less £ 40 on an exchange basis for existing platter) plus shipping.
If you just want to send your existing platter the price quoted will be £ 167 plus shipping. However remember you may be without the use of your turntable for the duration.
Steve
Before you sell your Achromat, I would strongly recommend that you try it on top, as you *may* find that the sound improves again.
Good advice Marco - I will do (and report back)
Steve
Cool - nice one, Steve. Just to confirm, does the copper plate on your platter have a cut-out label recess? It's difficult to tell from the picture :)
Marco.
Cool - nice one, Steve. Just to confirm, does the copper plate on your platter have a cut-out label recess? It's difficult to tell from the picture :)
Marco.
Hi Marco - the copper plate is machined so there is a slight depression/concavity to accommodate the label (just visible in the photies as a darker ring around the spindle). Have done a quick A/B demo with and without Achromat using a few tracks from Black Swan and Raising Sand (Robert Plant) and to my ears it is best without the Achromat. The Achromat saps some of the immediacy and muddies up the midband a tad - it wasn't a blind demo but it's pretty clearly different. I'll try it again over the next few days but thought it worth reporting back so to speak.
"always good to have more choice, especially for those who don't want to go the whole hog with an MN platter." Maybe I should call this route Technics Upgrade Lite to distinguish it from the MN pathway :lolsign:
Steve
Nice.............. I think the copper looks nearly as sexy as the oyaide mat, I was very happy with my Vantaged bearing but stopped short at doing the platter as I had my own ideas about platters and mine is away for modifications which are taking forever due to the machine shop being too busy! Nice pics BTW.
Is that the stock Techie arm you are using, I dont have my glasses on today!
Is that the stock Techie arm you are using, I dont have my glasses on today!
Thank you David - no it's a Jelco 750 with one of Shuggies custom arm collars in a TimeStep arm board.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Hi Marco - the copper plate is machined so there is a slight depression/concavity to accommodate the label (just visible in the photies as a darker ring around the spindle).
Cool - that's good, so no worries :)
Have done a quick A/B demo with and without Achromat using a few tracks from Black Swan and Raising Sand (Robert Plant) and to my ears it is best without the Achromat. The Achromat saps some of the immediacy and muddies up the midband a tad - it wasn't a blind demo but it's pretty clearly different.
That's fine. Did you make sure first that the Achromat was bonded VERY FIRMLY to the platter, as I described? This is crucial.
I'll try it again over the next few days but thought it worth reporting back so to speak.
Defo! However, the best way to analyse what the Achromat is doing, is to live with it for a week, or at least for 3-4 days, using it with all different types of music and recordings, and then remove it, using the last piece of music you listened to as a reference, by playing it again.
If when you do so, you think 'wow, that's much better', then you can pretty much categorically say that the Achromat is not benefical in your system. Or if the opposite happens, then of course you can draw a different conclusion. I still suspect that there is mileage in using some sort of mat on top of the copper surface. If an Achromat is not the solution, then perhaps the Blue Horizon mat, or something else, may be.
Anyway, good luck and report back :cool:
Marco.
I still suspect that there is mileage in using some sort of mat on top of the copper surface. If an Achromat is not the solution, then perhaps the Blue Horizon mat, or something else, may beMarco.
Hi Marco - I have one of these http://www.hi-fi-accessories-1.com/platter-mat-upgrade-composite.htm
that I have used to good effect on my OL deck and will give it a try - it's much thinner than the Achromat.
Steve
Yep, some folk have had good success with the OL mat, so defo give it a go :)
Do bond it firmly to your platter, though, as IME, ALL mats work best this way. You did bond the Achromat to the platter, like I suggested, before analysing its effect, didn't you?
Marco.
That new OL mat looks incredibly like the NAS Spacemat, which sells for £20 or so. I doubt I'll ever be in the position to compare them, but the Spacemat sounded ok on the SL1500, but I have to say the Herbies techie mat was better IMO. One thing i didn't try was the Herbies on top of another mat like the Spacemat or a cork type. The older pre-quartz techies had fixed height arms and the otherwise excellent AT and Supex 900E's I have set up in ADC shells (all I had to hand) cause the arm to look tail-up at the moment. I do hope to have a home made rubberised cork type mat sent me to play with soon and I think that one on the platter with another on top may be the answer.
By the way, the techie mat that came with the SL1500 is definitely slightly thinner in the middle compared to the outer edge and it goes down in three distinct steps, relevant to the main record sizes (7", 10" and 12").
You did bond the Achromat to the platter, like I suggested, before analysing its effect, didn't you? Marco.
Yes, I have some yellow soft paraffin. I used double sided adhesive tape previously but I think the vaseline works better.
Steve
Coolio - you have my blessing then, so carry on with your good work! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
CableMaker1
08-06-2011, 01:29
Hello Stephen.
Can you compare differences between your copper layer being bonded to the platter vs. a copper plate on top of the platter?
Thanks.
chris@panteg
08-06-2011, 10:50
Hi Stephen
Your new platter mod does look lush :) and as you know I've taken the plunge , i do like the "return it if you don't like it" option , not that you will though lol .
But that is a very fair way of doing things.
Oh and i think it looks sexier than the Oyaide mat :sofa:
Oh and i think it looks sexier than the Oyaide mat :sofa:
+1 :thumbsup:
Steve
Hello Stephen.
Can you compare differences between your copper layer being bonded to the platter vs. a copper plate on top of the platter?
Thanks.
Hi Mike - no I can't do this comparison as I have never had a non-bonded copper platter like the MicroSeiki - it is certainly significantly "better" than the standard platter with Achromat IMO
Steve
CableMaker1
08-06-2011, 17:24
If you do the "ping" test, do you hear any ringing? I would expect not.
However, the platter looks nice with the copper finish.
WOStantonCS100
08-06-2011, 23:20
Maybe these questions have been answered already; but,
How do you get the platter off?? I don't see any finger holes or bolt holes.
How does this directly affect VTA or does it? Is it thicker on the bottom? It looks like the platter is no taller than a stock platter.
Compared to a stock platter, does it ring when tapped more, less or the same as?
It looks cool. I'm just trying to make sure I understand the advantages over a stock platter. Thanks.
Vantage Audio provide a pair of very fine custom "pulling hooks" that slip down the side/underneath the platter to be used to lift it off the spindle if required.
The platter is about 0.5 mm taller than the stock platter but because it is designed to be used without a mat then the total height is a bit less - in my case about 1mm less than the stock platter with Achromat so it make a small change to the VTA which is well within adjustment of arm height if desired.
Not sure about "ringing" comparison as I have not formally tested but new platter sounds "dead" when handled and placed on spindle.
Steve
pure sound
09-06-2011, 09:59
It looks like a neat & cost effective solution. Presumably the copper is bonded to the platter & then machined up once in situ? Can you get some idea (by looking at the spindle hole) what the thickness of copper used is? It can't be too much if the overall weight has been kept in the same ballpark for optimal motor control.
I reckon about 0.5mm thick but i'm sure Richard at VA could give you all the technical details.
Steve
chris@panteg
09-06-2011, 10:13
It looks like a neat & cost effective solution. Presumably the copper is bonded to the platter & then machined up once in situ? Can you get some idea (by looking at the spindle hole) what the thickness of copper used is? It can't be too much if the overall weight has been kept in the same ballpark for optimal motor control.
Hi Guy
Here is a picture of an unfinished platter which Richard made for the SL-QL1 , which i will get a chance to try out very soon :)
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=41be931c7e&view=att&th=1306bde514b01956&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw
chris@panteg
09-06-2011, 10:16
I reckon about 0.5mm thick but i'm sure Richard at VA could give you all the technical details.
Steve
Hi Steve
Was there any change in tonality with the modded platter ?
Hi Steve
Was there any change in tonality with the modded platter ?
Hello Chris,
No, not to my ears the overall tone of the music remained the same - it was the way it is presented that improved, better attack (start and stop quicker) - less "bleed" of instruments into each other and overall better clarity and timing but the essential sound was preserved (just as well as I'd spent not a little time and a lot of dollar getting the tone I like by valve swapping in my Croft's.
I reckon I am a world authority now on the sonic characteristics of valves various :whistle:
If anyone reading this thread has a Croft Pre/Power combination I'm happy to discuss further.
Steve
Steve
chris@panteg
09-06-2011, 10:57
Hello Chris,
No, not to my ears the overall tone of the music remained the same - it was the way it is presented that improved, better attack (start and stop quicker) - less "bleed" of instruments into each other and overall better clarity and timing but the essential sound was preserved (just as well as I'd spent not a little time and a lot of dollar getting the tone I like by valve swapping in my Croft's.
I reckon I am a world authority now on the sonic characteristics of valves various :whistle:
If anyone reading this thread has a Croft Pre/Power combination I'm happy to discuss further.
Steve
Steve
Thanks Steve:)
How would you summarise the platter and bearing together , say compared with the difference the Timestep psu made ?
Thanks Steve:)
How would you summarise the the platter and bearing together , say compared with the difference the Timestep psu made ?
:hmm: Now your taxing my aged grey cells - the TimeStep has been in a while and I've made so many other changes since then. With that proviso I reckon that the VA bearing/platter upgrade was more significant than the PSU upgrade. They both (to my ears anyway) address the issues of PRaT. The PSU may perhaps have added a bit more in terms of bottom end definition but the VA upgrades were more significant in terms of timing, clarity and detail. I guess that must be the case as I heard these improvements despite the PSU being installed :mental: So in terms of upgrade path then IME I would suggest the VA bearing & platter and then the PSU.
Steve
WOStantonCS100
09-06-2011, 20:05
Hey Steve,
Is there anyway you could take additional closeups of the platter? The underside? The thing-a-ma-bobs that lift it up? I'm really curious how this was implemented as I've taken a look at his website and he seems, certainly in some cases, like a miracle worker. :)
chris@panteg
10-06-2011, 07:34
Hey Steve,
Is there anyway you could take additional closeups of the platter? The underside? The thing-a-ma-bobs that lift it up? I'm really curious how this was implemented as I've taken a look at his website and he seems, certainly in some cases, like a miracle worker. :)
Hi Biff
Well you might to watch this space, as hopefully in a couple of weeks i will get to hear the "Black Beast" (a hot rodded SL10) now Richard uses an L07D and like many others feels its the best DD TT ever made Arguably ? But this project has him scratching his head in disbelief .
Miracle worker ? No thats Blasphemy ! Lol.
Yes, I have some yellow soft paraffin. I used double sided adhesive tape previously but I think the vaseline works better.
Welcome to the Vaseline club ;)
But seriously, I found Vaseline bonding of the Achromat to the platter very effective.
Welcome to the Vaseline club ;)
Indeed. Incidentally, when is our next meeting, and are you supplying the rubber gloves this time or shall I?
Marco.
Hey Steve,
Is there anyway you could take additional closeups of the platter? The underside? The thing-a-ma-bobs that lift it up? I'm really curious how this was implemented as I've taken a look at his website and he seems, certainly in some cases, like a miracle worker. :)
I'll upload a piccie of the pulling hooks when I get home tonight.
:nono: I am not overly keen on lifting the platter to take photies I'm afraid. Richard stronlgy advises leaving the platter undisturbed once in situ unless essential - :sorry:
Steve
chris@panteg
10-06-2011, 13:04
Hi Steve
I can imagine with the decca cart , you're getting a pretty vivid listening experience , close to vinyl nirvana perhaps ?
Hi Steve
I can imagine with the decca cart , you're getting a pretty vivid listening experience , close to vinyl nirvana perhaps ?
Hi Chris - yes, I think it's time to stop buying/upgrading and start listening :)
Steve
OK - so here is a photie - (not very good) of the lifting hooks and a copy of the instructions supplied with the platter upgrade.
Steve
Hi Steve
I can imagine with the decca cart , you're getting a pretty vivid listening experience , close to vinyl nirvana perhaps ?
OMG! :stalks: It has all suddenly come together with the platter upgrade! Just been blown away listening to some vinyl favourites (Jethro Tull, Dire Straits) - this system has never sounded so together - total system synergy:)
No more upgrades, no more A/B dems - I have arrived :smoking:
chris@panteg
11-06-2011, 06:16
OMG! :stalks: It has all suddenly come together with the platter upgrade! Just been blown away listening to some vinyl favourites (Jethro Tull, Dire Straits) - this system has never sounded so together - total system synergy:)
No more upgrades, no more A/B dems - I have arrived :smoking:
Pleased for you Steve ! Looking at your system I'm not surprised , Like Doug Dunlop , Glen Croft is a decca man ! Get the synergy right and there's nothing quite like it .
It something I'm thinking about ? How would a decca perform in a 309 ?
OMG! :stalks: It has all suddenly come together with the platter upgrade! Just been blown away listening to some vinyl favourites (Jethro Tull, Dire Straits) - this system has never sounded so together - total system synergy:)
No more upgrades, no more A/B dems - I have arrived :smoking:
Love it - pleased for ya, dude! :exactly:
Marco.
Any further thoughts on the VA Bearing and platter upgrade Steve?:)
Any further thoughts on the VA Bearing and platter upgrade Steve?:)
Hi Andy - nothing more to add really - I think my last post said it all :)
I can wholeheartedly recommend this upgrade route - I suspect there is a synergism with the bearing and platter mods so I guess knowing what I know now I would have both done at the same time.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Richard does great work, doesn't he? :)
Cheers...
Ok cheers Steve, will look into the bearing/platter upgrade, seems good VFM, and l like good VFM;)
chris@panteg
21-07-2011, 09:51
My new Vantage Audio platter , i rather like it :)
Sorry about the dust :( wifey keeps telling me off .
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Picture001.jpg?t=1311241723
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Picture002.jpg?t=1311241788
Stratmangler
21-07-2011, 09:57
Looks good.
How does it sound ?
chris@panteg
21-07-2011, 10:10
Looks good.
How does it sound ?
Good question :)
It sounds so clean and crystal clear ! Its like a layer of grunge and distortion has been removed , Richard checked my 309/precept set up and all that was needed was a slight change to the VTA , its like everything has snapped into focus , now i must admit i was struggling with 309/precept combo but now it all seems to be working with what i guess i would describe as synergy !
There is one small snag though , to get the full benefit of this synergy with the bearing and platter , I'm going to have to invest in Richard's PSU !
I can do some needle drops but a bit more listening 1st :)
Stratmangler
21-07-2011, 10:45
It sounds so clean and crystal clear ! Its like a layer of grunge and distortion has been removed ...
That sounds very promising :)
Richard checked my 309/precept set up and all that was needed was a slight change to the VTA , its like everything has snapped into focus , now i must admit i was struggling with 309/precept combo but now it all seems to be working with what i guess i would describe as synergy !
The dreaded setup - the most miniscule of adjustments sometimes make all the difference ;)
There is one small snag though , to get the full benefit of this synergy with the bearing and platter , I'm going to have to invest in Richard's PSU !
I can do some needle drops but a bit more listening 1st :)
Onward and upward mate - sounds like it's properly coming back together again :cool:
chris@panteg
21-07-2011, 10:58
That sounds very promising :)
The dreaded setup - the most miniscule of adjustments sometimes make all the difference ;)
Onward and upward mate - sounds like it's properly coming back together again :cool:
Thanks Chris :)
It is and to anyone who thinks the Techy ain't "musical" well they've just not heard it properly sorted , it should if set up right be very musical even in stock form , my pal John who has never owned or used a DD was tapping his feet along to the "Black SL10" and he's no linnie either , though he did have one once ! He has a very nice Voyd and was certainly surprised by how good both the linear tracker's sounded , he will be back for a listen to my 1210.
The "precept" now seems to make sense as its overall sound and balance is remarkably similar to the P205mk4 ! And this is the reason why Richard suggested it , as I'm really quite taken by this vintage classic :)
My new Vantage Audio platter , i rather like it :)
Sorry about the dust :( wifey keeps telling me off .
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Picture001.jpg?t=1311241723
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Picture002.jpg?t=1311241788
Wow, that looks well cool Chris- congrats:):cool::cool:
JazzBones
21-07-2011, 16:26
Chris, looks beaut mate. Did Richard of VA paint the outer rim of the platter black, eliminating the shiny strobe dots, if so are there other colour options to go for... just curious ? :)
Would VA's platter mod work synergistically with the MN bearing... curious again? :)
What reiteration of the TimeStep PSU are you using, the standard one or the HE one as I'm not clear which one you intend 'binning'?
:cheers: Ron
chris@panteg
21-07-2011, 17:34
Thanks guys , yes it is black ! Looks quite cool don't you think ?
I think if you have the MN bearing , there is no reason why it won't work , but i really can't say for sure.
I have the standard TS psu at present , i must say though Ron , its probably unwise to mix different upgrades from the main Techy modders that are around at present.
WOStantonCS100
21-07-2011, 19:41
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Picture001.jpg?t=1311241723
That's pretty crackin'. I think the only thing I would do differently is keep the original look of the strobe dots, as I have the "silver" decks.
What cartridge is that?
chris@panteg
21-07-2011, 22:45
Thanks Biff
Yes if you have the 1200 , i think the silver dots would look better.
The cartridge is the Audio Technica "Precept" fitted with a 220EX stylus , its a vintage cartridge from the early 80's , only sold in north America !
Hence why hardly anybody round here has heard of it , its very similar in sonics to some of the vintage Technics cartridges I'm familiar with .
Looks great, Chris - well done! I wish you many happy hours of quality music-listening :)
Richard obviously knows his stuff, and so AoS and I are happy to endorse and promote Vantage Audio Technics T/T modifications.
Like I've always said, choice is good, and anything that keeps the Techy up-to-date and relevant, in the 'limelight', so to speak, and perhaps people from buying the usual boring (and in many ways inferior) 'elastic band' T/T efforts, is fine with me! ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
22-07-2011, 08:03
Looks great, Chris - well done! I wish you many happy hours of quality music-listening :)
Richard obviously knows his stuff, and so AoS and I are happy to endorse and promote Vantage Audio Technics T/T modifications.
Like I've always said, choice is good, and anything that keeps the Techy up-to-date and relevant, in the 'limelight', so to speak, and perhaps people from buying the usual boring (and in many ways inferior) 'elastic band' T/T efforts, is fine with me! ;)
Marco.
Thanks Marco
I'm glad i've stuck with it and not thrown in the towel ! That did cross my mind though , but very briefly , i may as well tell you Marco about that item I'm lusting after ! Its Richard's workshop reference psu , a fairly plain but very large box , about 3 times the size of the TS psu , and Richard plugged it in using TS connector and well erm , it was a bit good .
But getting back to the platter ! There is something going on underneath as well and ties in with bearing upgrade , Richard kept mentioning constrained layer damping , and regarding "test resuts" he claims his bearing as being 2db better than the oem !
If anyone wants this verified then i urge you to contact the man himself.
chris@panteg
30-07-2011, 14:04
Some more piccies of the platter :)
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Timesteppsu003.jpg?t=1312034560
And underneath.
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Timesteppsu002.jpg?t=1312034639
What is the construction exactly ? It looks like laquered copper.
Hi Chris,
Some more piccies of the platter :)
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Timesteppsu003.jpg?t=1312034560
Nice, but where's the label recess? I can't see one, unless the pic's obscuring it....
Marco.
chris@panteg
30-07-2011, 16:48
It is laquered copper !
Beyond that , Richard was very reluctant to tell me ! Top secret lol.
Hi Marco
There is no label recess , but the top is tapered down towards the centre , like the Oyaide mat ! And Richard recommends using a weight or clamp , again like the Oyaide , i can tell you my LP's sit very flat on this platter !
Just a little bit frustrated by the cartridge , you see it now has the top 550ML stylus and it won't come to life for some reason.
Looking very nice indeed, Chris. I hope your previous slump with the Techie is now over? If all you have to worry about is the cartridge then you are well up the slope from where you were before.
It is laquered copper !
Beyond that , Richard was very reluctant to tell me ! Top secret lol.
Hi Marco
There is no label recess , but the top is tapered down towards the centre , like the Oyaide mat ! And Richard recommends using a weight or clamp , again like the Oyaide , i can tell you my LP's sit very flat on this platter !
Just a little bit frustrated by the cartridge , you see it now has the top 550ML stylus and it won't come to life for some reason.
That would be extremely difficult to achieve? Is it 1 degree? Not being anal just curious?
chris@panteg
31-07-2011, 12:54
That would be extremely difficult to achieve? Is it 1 degree? Not being anal just curious?
Good point David !
All i can say is my records sit very flat , you might want to ask Richard how he achieves it ?
From the look on his face and talking about the platter , it took a lot of hard work ! All done by hand.
Mike_New
07-08-2011, 00:17
There is obviously no label recess in the copper mat as indicated by the images currently displayed here; which means that if your records are to be in overall contact with the immediate supporting medium then a soft top mat is required which allows indentation for the label. Or you will require a mat which has a label recess in it such as the Achromat which I have used, but prefer the Ribbed Technics neoprene mat myself.
Otherwise there will be an increasing air gap towards to center of the record. Think of it, there has to be; the label on some older records is nearly 0.3mm above the nominal record surface, and even if the suporting surface is dished, then you will still have the same problem.
It is this air gap which would be accentuated by placing the record onto a hard metalic surface; that does in fact change the character of the replay. Some people it would appear, think this is sonically better.
Any air gap between the record and the ultimate platter surface is going to change the character of the replay. This is why the use of grease such as vaselene works wonders in providing a uniform hydraulic connection between the two surfaces when using a mat such as the Achromat. This holds for any turn table IMO.
On my own design Solid Copper Bonded Alluminium Platter I do not machine a label recess except on specific demand by the customer, as I believe that it is best used with a soft mat which allows the record to bed down, and to be in contact over the whole playable surface of the record.
In the case of Richard's option which bonds the copper mat onto the surface of the OEM platter, He would be using a Water-Cut circular disc cut from un-annealed copper sheet and then polished. Which is then directly bonded to the platter.
Cutting a label recess into the copper mat would require a process on a lathe of suitable size, and fitted with some form of vacuum chuck to hold the thin material, which makes things more time consuming and therefore more expensive.
chris@panteg
07-08-2011, 10:08
Very interesting Mike , but all i can say is my LP's sit very flat , and i prefer to use my alchemist weight , though at 280 gm , its not quite heavy enough.
I found the Achromat on top , just added some muddle and distortion ? But the jury is still out on my current cart !
When my 1210 is back on line , i might try a linn style felt mat or a thin neoprene mat and see what happens .
I like cork, may be worth a try if it's cheap enough.. if a standard cheapie is fine, then you can spend more on a "proper" one.
chris@panteg
07-08-2011, 11:28
I like cork, may be worth a try if it's cheap enough.. if a standard cheapie is fine, then you can spend more on a "proper" one.
Hi Dave
I have a cheapie cork mat on my Q21 which I'm currently using as a stand in :eyebrows: i quite like it , though it has no recess ? But again i use the alchemist weight and it seems ok :scratch:
JazzBones
07-08-2011, 12:06
Some more piccies of the platter :)
And underneath.
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/Timesteppsu002.jpg?t=1312034639
Chris, what is that mustard coloured membrane on the underneath of the VA platter, it looks a little rouched? Is it fabric or metal sheet and how does it contribute to the platter, the top I understand? Just curious again :scratch:
Ron :cocktail:
chris@panteg
07-08-2011, 14:34
Chris, what is that mustard coloured membrane on the underneath of the VA platter, it looks a little rouched? Is it fabric or metal sheet and how does it contribute to the platter, the top I understand? Just curious again :scratch:
Ron :cocktail:
Hi Ron
Very good question ! I was waiting for someone to ask this , i asked Richard but he was rather secretive , oh there's something going on under there lol , it feels like a metalic foil or something ?
Constrained layer damping is what he did mention.
Doesn't the mk2> 12** series have rubber damping under the platter as well?
Ammonite Audio
07-08-2011, 15:02
If I was going to improve the rather flexible Technics SL1200 platter, I'd do pretty much what Vantage Audio have done with a stiff layer bonded to the top, and maybe mu-metal screening underneath to ensure that no stray magnetic fields get through to sensitive cartridge coils above. If that is a mu-metal sheet in the photo above, then by bonding it to the rubber damping layer put there in the factory by Technics, a form of constrained layer damping will result. Whatever, it all looks like the VA platter upgrade is the result of some elegant and very sound thinking.
... and may make for the most cost-effective upgrades of them all with any luck :)
JazzBones
07-08-2011, 15:12
Hi Ron
Very good question ! I was waiting for someone to ask this , i asked Richard but he was rather secretive , oh there's something going on under there lol , it feels like a metalic foil or something ?
Constrained layer damping is what he did mention.
Chris, is Richard (VA) making damn sure that magnetic nasties don't break through to the cartridge (MC) although I'm sure the copper topper (I like that :lol:) would see off any stray magnetic fields I would think?
Dave, I've had my stock platter off the 1210 a number of times but stupidly did not probe to see if there was any rubber content, my religion forbids it :eyebrows::eek::rolleyes: but seriously the Matsushita bods must have done summat rather than nowt!
Ron
I found the Achromat on top , just added some muddle and distortion ? But the jury is still out on my current cart !
Hi Chris - this is exactly what I found at first and had a helpful debate with Marco who was very sure it should be better with the Acromat but I didnt think so. Anyway, after the Vantage PSU and PCB upgrade I revisited the whole "mat thing" and much to my surprise it now sounds better with the Achromat - go figure :scratch:
Rather than the mid range being muddled as you found it is now better defined - vocals have better emotion and basslines are fuller and better defined. Imaging is a little more forward with better "3D" depth. I certainly prefer the sound now with the Acromat. Don't know if it's just coincidence but the Decca is really on-song - it always tracked the first 3 HFN test record "tracking tracks" but now tracks the 4th near perfectly. Probably just a combination of getting all the little things right. I have bought a Stanton 681 EEE III (well birthday pressie from my mom actually) but am reluctant to install it now as I dont want to "mess up" the current geometry as it's working so well. :eyebrows:
Steve
They didn't in the bad old days of the pre-quartz SL150(0)
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0460.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0462.jpg
JazzBones
07-08-2011, 15:30
... and may make for the most cost-effective upgrades of them all with any luck :)
Dave, I was quoted UK£600.oop!!!! for an acrylic platter (black or frosted), it would cost additionally more if I wanted it chamfered as per the Tekko one, this was from the Funk Academy and they had the cheek to ask if my enquiry was serious... of course it was serious otherwise I would not have taken the trouble to enquire :eek::stalks:
The Vantage Audio looks more appealing each day, but I will first try resizing and then bonding a Sounds Dead constrained layer disc to the Tekko platter to fit within the lipping, it will certainly cut out any potential platter ringing when hit with a cricket bat or such other. I am already using a Shubato/TS coppermat with an Acromat bonded to this..... good ole petroleum jelly the universal ointment for multiple uses :eyebrows:
Ron
chris@panteg
07-08-2011, 16:00
I found the Achromat on top , just added some muddle and distortion ? But the jury is still out on my current cart !
Hi Chris - this is exactly what I found at first and had a helpful debate with Marco who was very sure it should be better with the Acromat but I didnt think so. Anyway, after the Vantage PSU and PCB upgrade I revisited the whole "mat thing" and much to my surprise it now sounds better with the Achromat - go figure :scratch:
Rather than the mid range being muddled as you found it is now better defined - vocals have better emotion and basslines are fuller and better defined. Imaging is a little more forward with better "3D" depth. I certainly prefer the sound now with the Acromat. Don't know if it's just coincidence but the Decca is really on-song - it always tracked the first 3 HFN test record "tracking tracks" but now tracks the 4th near perfectly. Probably just a combination of getting all the little things right. I have bought a Stanton 681 EEE III (well birthday pressie from my mom actually) but am reluctant to install it now as I dont want to "mess up" the current geometry as it's working so well. :eyebrows:
Steve
Hi Steve
That is very interesting and perhaps i was rather hasty in selling my Achromat ? But it scarcely matter's as at the moment i don't even have a psu for my 1210 , having sold the Timestep , my Techie is going to be off line for some time :( the big kitchen project has now taken over and I'm going to be skint for a while but it means so much to Caren , i think i can manage on my other techies :)
The other problem is the cartridge :scratch: I'm really not sure about the "precept" it may have to go ? But that can wait also .
Hi Chris - this is exactly what I found at first and had a helpful debate with Marco who was very sure it should be better with the Acromat but I didnt think so. Anyway, after the Vantage PSU and PCB upgrade I revisited the whole "mat thing" and much to my surprise it now sounds better with the Achromat - go figure :scratch:
Hehehehe..... The Marco-boy is usually always right! :eyebrows: ;)
Seriously though, Steve, I'm glad things are singing for you now - regardless of how you've achieved it! :)
Hopefully Chris can get there soon, too.....
Marco.
You are all wrong on the mat front Im afraid. There is an excellent leather mat available on EBay and this is my favourite by far. I'm not sure how it sounds but I have to lick it all over before placing an LP on it....mmmmmm!:flasher::booty:
JazzBones
08-08-2011, 16:06
You are all wrong on the mat front Im afraid. There is an excellent leather mat available on EBay and this is my favourite by far. I'm not sure how it sounds but I have to lick it all over before placing an LP on it....mmmmmm!:flasher::booty:
:eek::stalks::D
Anyone checked out the Vantage bronze mat? Is this to be used with a soft mat?
chris@panteg
16-01-2012, 16:55
I think there is a thin copper and bronze mat that Vantage sell or do you mean the platter mod ? Which I have and is very good !
I meant the bronze mat, but could not find any specs or pictures of it.
chris@panteg
16-01-2012, 17:49
You'll have to contact Vantage and talk to Richard , but from what he told me the
copper mat is better , but if you want to try it , he can make you one.
Thanks, I have dropped him a mail.
Resurrecting this thread to see if you guys are all still happy with the Vantage copper modified platter?
And also whether you felt it did function better with the Achromat on top or not?
Thanks
chris@panteg
22-04-2012, 23:34
Resurrecting this thread to see if you guys are all still happy with the Vantage copper modified platter?
And also whether you felt it did function better with the Achromat on top or not?
Thanks
Still happy with it and still use it without any mat :) No plans to get another Achromat ! Its fine just as it is :)
Thanks Chris
How significant were the improvements with the bearing and platter mods?
Cheers
Resurrecting this thread to see if you guys are all still happy with the Vantage copper modified platter?
And also whether you felt it did function better with the Achromat on top or not?
Thanks
Well for me the Resomat worked better than the Achromat. Sounded a little less congested in the mid range and bass was tighter. I then obtained a set of "Resomat cones" and just applied them to the top of the copper platter with double sided adhesive tape in the same pattern as the Resomat. Works great - SQ is the same as the Resomat but dont have the flimsy bit of plastic on the platter which is now visible in all its eye candy glory.
Steve
chris@panteg
23-04-2012, 11:37
Thanks Chris
How significant were the improvements with the bearing and platter mods?
Cheers
Well I think the bearing mod , which is in essence just a replacement thrust pad with some added damping , lowers the noise floor , it sounds cleaner and a bit more refined but it is relatively subtle , the platter upgrade makes more of a difference in tandem with the bearing mod , sounding cleaner and less coloured .
I'm finding it easier to follow various instruments in the mix , it sounds a lot calmer and more controlled or less busy , bass sounds very clean and tight .
Thanks Chris. Do you have the Vantage pcb mod as well?
chris@panteg
23-04-2012, 19:24
Thanks Chris. Do you have the Vantage pcb mod as well?
No as yet , thought about it but in no hurry to do anything at the moment, just invested in a new telly .
Richard popped around on Wednesday to fit my psu. He also brought around the copper platter and upgraded bearing to have a play with.
Unfortunately he was delayed and so arrived quite late. As a result I was already quite fatigued by the time we started to listen (I also had a virus)
Anyway I listened to the platter and the bearing individually with the platter first. I must say I thought it made a very audible difference, everything sounded much clearer and more coherent. Richard thought I might not like it because he thought it gave 'a more laid back sound' in my system but I didn't think that at all.
By the time I got to hear the bearing I was knackered and not in the right mood so didn't hear much difference. He has left that with me to have a listen to once I've got used to my new psu.
The copper platter to my ears works really well. I will definately be buying one, and the price is very reasonable. I also like the logic of keeping the mass as close to the original as possible.
Richard is, as everybody has said, a gentleman and I like his approach. And that approach is to provide great value for money mods for the tech whilst understanding its limitations.
After meeting him I think I'm going to pursue a 'vantage audio' flavoured 1210
RobbieGong
09-06-2012, 12:30
Nice one David, I like that you have decided on an approach and decided to take a punt. Any pics would be great too, if ever at all possible :)
Glad it's worked out, David - thought it would! ;)
No reason why not to go down the Vantage Audio route. It's the popular one for most people, as Richard has got all the angles covered, whilst keeping prices as competitive as possible.
Enjoy - and let's see some pics! :cool:
Marco.
chris@panteg
09-06-2012, 13:05
Pleased you like the platter David , I would describe it as being calmer and less busy , to some it may appear more understated .
Enjoy the upgrades and I hope its what you're looking for :)
Thanks for all the comments. I'll put some pics up but there is not much to see at the moment as I only have the psu. As I went for a low cost option it looks a little industrial, luckily I can hide it away.
I wonder if Richard would mind if I posted pics of the bearing?
you will like it, I think mine is immensely good, only got chance to listen for 10 minutes then had to send my psu to someone to borrow!
the bearing up-grade richard does is also excellent
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