View Full Version : 15 Audio T stores rebrand as Sevenoaks
Neil McCauley
20-05-2011, 13:18
"Following last year’s announcement of the merger of the Sevenoaks Sound and Vision and Audio T chains, 15 of the original Audio T stores have been rebranded under the Sevenoaks name."
Ho-hum I suppose.
http://ertonline.co.uk/ERT%20Latest%20News/15-audio-t-stores-rebrand-as-sevenoaks.htm
My sympathies to Audio T staff. The team at my local Sevenoaks look very unhappy with their job.
aquapiranha
20-05-2011, 13:50
Confucius say...
'You can't polish a turd'
;)
Neil McCauley
20-05-2011, 13:53
Confucius say...
'You can't polish a turd'
;)
While factually correct, personally I don't see that that's entirely appropriate in this situation. As both a customer and competitor retailer I always received both courtesy and good service from the London outlets. No idea what happened out in rural-land re them though.
They were in every respect a significant improvement over the miserable sod that ran H. L Smith in Edgware Rd London W2 where I bought my Connoisseur turntable with 10" platter and a Pickering cartridge. Audio-T started me off with a Fons CQ-30 with SME arm and Shure or Sonus cartridge. I can't remember which. And then I became a retailer.
aquapiranha
20-05-2011, 13:59
You and I have different experiences Howard. The sevenoaks store that used to be on Lord Street in Liverpool was staffed by muppets and only sold the latest What Hifi recommendations (despite this, I ordered some 7NT's that #i later sold on) I ordered some expensive speakers from there and they managed to 'lose' one,at least that is the excuse they gave me for the three week delay. :rolleyes:
Audio T "USED" to get people in with reasonable budgets and after the sales-guy's help in choosing the gear. This may have changed in recent years, as I can't believe how long ago it was since I was on the road - our son was a baby/toddler...
Sevenoaks, on the other hand, "USED" to get potential customers with a WTF chosen shopping list, often full of mis-matched items and, of course, miles of that godawful QED SA speaker wire, which was sold because it looked nice as well as the reviews!!!!!!! The staff in so many of these stores (with two or three notable exceptions to be fair) just passed boxes over the counter and took the money, the more profitable the item, the more commission they earned...
Times is very tight and the HiFi industry as Howard, HiFi dave and I knew it in our heyday is all but finished, the better dealers usually doing it from home rather than shops to save money, or else they're semi-retired and still doing it for love IMO. very few dealers can make the kind of living they once used to, except the odd London (mostly) dealers who sell the ultimate bling-fi and seem to attract the very top financial tier of society who are largely immune to everyone elses financial position (me lips is sealed on that one).
I remember the Hampstead branch of Audio-T being very helpful and I bought my Croft SIP/4S pre/power combo from them. A long, long time ago.
In more recent times the Reading branch of Audio-T sold me two Chord amplifiers, a Sony SCD-1 and a REL Studio II subwoofer, so they got my business but then they were nice people to deal with.
I suspect the 'audio' in Audio-T is what decided them to go with the Sevenoaks branding. Can't be having connotations of audio when all the proles want 5.1 channels of surround shit.
Well my local Audio T is staffed by a bunch of smug condescending twerps so I guess if they use the same staff with the Sevenoaks name it will still be a shit shop that I make concerted efforts to avoid.
Butuz
Had some nice folks in the Plymouth branch of Sevenoaks last time I went in there, apart from a strange fixation that the best hi-fi to be had was on their stock list :scratch: Ah well, I have known worse sins than that.
I know that Sevenoaks was run on a franchise basis, but I am not sure how the Audio T chain operated, so if it wasn't/isn't, how would that align with Sevenoaks business model I wonder?
hifi_dave
21-05-2011, 14:49
I thought that both Sevenoaks and Audio-T had some franchise and some owned by the company but I could be wrong.
Reading Audio T? Unless they've had a total staff change (including manager) I'd only go there if I hated digital and loved Naim blindly......
The last time I dealt with them was about nine years ago, so that may well be the case.
kininigin
22-05-2011, 19:51
Reading Audio T? Unless they've had a total staff change (including manager) I'd only go there if I hated digital and loved Naim blindly......
The last time i went there,the older guy treated me like a leper,didn't even have the decency to look me in the eyes when he was talking down to me.
I'll never buy anything from there again.
HighFidelityGuy
22-05-2011, 20:06
They're a What Hi-Fi outlet. Fine if you want a TV, surround sound amp or 5.1 speaker package. I'm on their email mailing list and that's pretty much all they seem to tell me about. I couldn't be less interested. They probably used to be good Hi-Fi stores but based on my last experience in dealing with Sevenoaks I wouldn't go back. :rolleyes:
I have a Sevenoaks around the corner from me. I booked a demo for a sub for the afternoon and dropped my speakers of early morning. He didnt even attempt to set it up properly and he should know my speakers as he owned a pair.
Maybe he didnt care about a £250 sale. He told me if i dont like it i should try a Monitor Audio model £100 more expensive . I work in retail and so im a bit suspicious.
The manager of the Croyden branch was good and a bought a few things of him but his assistant was a horrible man. Sadly its a tesco metro now.
The guy in the Bromley branch always looked fed up but did light up when i commented on the great sounding vinyl set up he was playing. Suddenly his passion came out and i warmed to him enough to buy a phono stage from him.
Maybe its not a pleasant company to work for. Difficult sales targets or crap head office. Been there before myself.
.
Maybe its not a pleasant company to work for. Difficult sales targets or crap head office. Been there before myself.
If their targets are difficult there is no way they are going to meet them by acting like a bunch of miserable wankers. Typical British retail mentality.
hifi_dave
23-05-2011, 09:29
I believe they have huge targets to meet, they have to give a massive chunk of turnover to head office and they are forced to sell the most profitable items from WTF mag.
That would make me miserable...:mental:
A good salesman sells what he is given to sell at the price he is told to sell it. If it is rubbish or too expensive, well, that's why you need a salesman to shift it and not an order taker.
Different for you Dave as you stock and sell what you want and you only answer to yourself if you don't make any money.
hifi_dave
23-05-2011, 14:50
Perhaps that's why I haven't made a fortune. I'm a useless salesman and only sell what I like and believe in..:doh:
anthonyTD
23-05-2011, 15:02
Perhaps that's why I haven't made a fortune. I'm a useless salesman and only sell what I like and believe in..:doh:
hi Dave,
In this ever decreasing market i think your philosophy will win in the long run!:)
Anthony,TD...
Lodgesound
23-05-2011, 15:05
The problem with the "good salesman sells what he is given" theory is that any intelligent customer / buyer will both see straight through that kind of act and be mightily insulted by it.
Spectral Morn
23-05-2011, 15:59
A good salesman sells what he is given to sell at the price he is told to sell it. If it is rubbish or too expensive, well, that's why you need a salesman to shift it and not an order taker.
Different for you Dave as you stock and sell what you want and you only answer to yourself if you don't make any money.
I worked in a high pressure brown goods business selling TVs etc. I sold what i liked and what suited customers. I sold lots of it and did OK regarding commission. However I never sold shit to do that, nor did I ever lie to a customer. My high sales figures meant I was never hassled by the floor manger or buyer to sell crap.So I pretty much wrote my own ticket as to what I sold and didn't. I dare say with in Audio T or Sevenoaks the same could be done but it depends of the staff.
Frankly in my book there is no excuse for poor shop courtesy etc but we do all have the odd off day but this should only be the odd time, if more regular....well that member of staff should get the short walk to the sack.
Regards D S D L
Hi Martin,
A good salesman sells what he is given to sell at the price he is told to sell it. If it is rubbish or too expensive, well, that's why you need a salesman to shift it and not an order taker...
I understand your sentiments, but speaking as someone who's been in sales for the best part of 25 years, and in that time worked in highly pressurised environments for companies big and small, where often 80% of my salary was made up of commission (sales target-based), and now having run my own business for the last 13 years, and been very successful at it, I can say with some conviction that a good salesman (i.e. someone who will consistently earn a very high salary and be valued by his or her employers, long-term), is one who is honest, knowledgeable, charming, adaptable, quick-thinking, determined, hard-working and reliable - those are the traits that matter most.
The bull-shitters who sell crap products with sales 'spiels' they've been programmed like robots to deliver, and who pressure sell and lie to their customers, don't last long!
The key thing to remember ALWAYS in sales is the old saying of 'people buy from people'. If someone doesn't like you, they won't buy from you. You have to sell YOU first and your product second.
If you truly grasp that concept, master it, and embrace the other traits I mentioned above, then as a salesman, the world will be your oyster and you'll literally be able to sell snow to Eskimos - and do it time and time again, with a big smile on your face and on the customer's! ;)
Marco.
jantheman
23-05-2011, 17:16
Had some nice folks in the Plymouth branch of Sevenoaks last time I went in there, apart from a strange fixation that the best hi-fi to be had was on their stock list :scratch: Ah well, I have known worse sins than that.
Get in there quick Frank and say cheerio...they are closing down........
I can say with some conviction that a good salesman (i.e. someone who will consistently earn a very high salary and be valued by his or her employers, long-term), is one who is honest, knowledgeable, charming, adaptable, quick-thinking, determined, hard-working and reliable - those are the traits that matter most.
Absolutely spot-on, Marco. When I worked in industry I found that most of the sales force were ten-a-penny mouthy ego-trips on a mission to make money by any means possible. This was reinforced by the senior management attitude of "sell what's in the warehouse, not what the customer wants". I really valued the very few sales people with integrity and pride in their work, but unfortunately they were not appreciated by the American leadership team. The fact that they could display a healthy back-order book made little impression on managers and didn't generate commission, either. However, it was obvious which type of salesperson went down well with the customers, as frequent trips out taught me.
When I worked in industry I found that most of the sales force were ten-a-penny mouthy ego-trips on a mission to make money by any means possible.
Oh, I've met plenty of tossers like that in my time. Can't stand them. As a buyer, it's how I HATE to be sold to, so if I sniff a 'spiel' from an oily salesmen, I run for the hills! The short-term gain brigade (as I call them), you refer to, rarely achieve indefinite success as salesmen, as their bullshit eventually comes back to bite them up the bum!
The fact that they could display a healthy back-order book made little impression on managers and didn't generate commission, either. However, it was obvious which type of salesperson went down well with the customers, as frequent trips out taught me.
Indeed, Martin. And that, as a salesman, is what in the long term will win you more battles than you will lose :)
Also, and this is utterly fundamental: you cannot sell a product well if you don't believe in it!
Marco.
Neil McCauley
23-05-2011, 18:22
Reading the comments here prompted me to reflect on my approach as a retailer. How could I summarize it cogently and without ambiguity? And how could I avoid the clichés? Well … the only way I could see was to tell the truth as I experience it on a daily basis.
The practical reality is that the majority of my time is happily spent in helping people avoid doing the wrong thing in hi-fi.
As a rough guess this takes up around 80% of my working day with the reminder on demonstrating, admin, marketing, closing the sale, and so on. It’s not the road to wealth. Far from it. But I sleep easy and I have a number of friends of the company who’ve never spent a penny here. I'm content.
Lodgesound
23-05-2011, 18:28
Well said indeed both Marco and Howard - the very implication earlier that in sales one should mislead a potential customer to gain a sale of any kind I find utterly deplorable - the best sales staff I have ever encountered are knowledgeable, friendly and above all know their products and subject thus being able to advise a wide variety of clientele with differing budgets and aspirations on the best course of purchase.
Well said indeed both Marco and Howard - the very implication earlier that in sales one should mislead a potential customer to gain a sale of any kind I find utterly deplorable - the best sales staff I have ever encountered are knowledgeable, friendly and above all know their products and subject thus being able to advise a wide variety of clientele with differing budgets and aspirations on the best course of purchase.
I hope you are not referring to what I posted - I certainly did not intend to imply that one should mislead a customer - I can say hand on heart in all the time i spent in (high pressure - on us not the customers) sales I never lied to a customer or misled them - in any case they had 14 days to change their mind so it would have been pointless to do so.
My point was that if a product is fantastic and well priced it will sell itself. A sales man is only required if it is not shifting - that could be for any number of reasons.
Theres a big difference between a salesman and an account manager - I've worked as the latter also - much more rewarding to work with an exisiting customer an bring in more business through trust and hard work.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 10:53
In the latest Hi-Fi News and Hi-Fi World mags I have, there is no mention at all of Audio-T in the Sevenoaks adverts.
So, have they now ceased trading as Audio-T ? I was under the impression that some would continue as Audio-T but obviously not !!!
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 10:58
About half the price you pay for a product in a Hi-Fi shop goes to the retailer. Can anyone tell me what they do to justify this?
Business rates and utilities will take a fair chunk - then you've got the cost of renting a shop in a high-footfall area - could cost 500K to a Million a year just for that.
About half the price you pay for a product in a Hi-Fi shop goes to the retailer. Can anyone tell me what they do to justify this?
It used to depend on the category as to the margin. Wire related products carried a 60 to 75% margin in my day, although the better agencies stayed by the old "30 less 5" rule off retail and some still do I'm told. In Sevenoaks, there used to be tiers of commission depending on the profit margin made, so guess which brands were recommended the most in so many of the shops?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 12:25
Business rates and utilities will take a fair chunk - then you've got the cost of renting a shop in a high-footfall area - could cost 500K to a Million a year just for that.
I didn't ask what they had to pay out in overheads, I asked what they did to justify their profit margin.
Do customers want to pay a shops overheads for no purpose, or is there a purpose.
Most HiFi shops pay no more than 20 to 25K per annum I reckon. You rarely find them in high footfall areas these days.
Oh I see...
That's a whole different answer then isn't it? We no longer have a Hi-Fi retailer in these parts unless you count Richer Sounds which I don't.
The only thing I miss them for is they used to service my TT and fit new cartridges. They were expensive for kit, reluctant to do shop dems, refused to do home dems or lend out kit for trial even if you offered them the full purchase price in cash as a deposit.:steam:
These days if I need hi-fi advice I just ask Dave DSJR:lol:
For better or worse the days of the traditional HIFI shops are numbered
http://www.pstracks.com/featured/the...tailing-today/
About half the price you pay for a product in a Hi-Fi shop goes to the retailer. Can anyone tell me what they do to justify this?
The last two times I bought a product from a dealer I asked for a discount as I was just ordering from them. I explained that they did not need to demo to me and there was no added value at all as I was collecting them. They agreed and gave me a discount. I thought this was fair on both sides.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 14:10
About half the price you pay for a product in a Hi-Fi shop goes to the retailer. Can anyone tell me what they do to justify this?
In the main, the makers hate dealing with the end-user. I chose my words carefully. They hate dealing with the end-user. Only rarely do they have contempt for the end-user. In the main they are indifferent to them and happily remain so - so long as they have no direct contact, or vice-versa!
The retailer therefore is, among other things, the buffer. The retailer is providing a service to the maker and expects to be paid for it.
Secondly, when things go wrong the end-user sues or at least has the option of suing the first target, the retailer. End-users have no recourse legally with the maker if the retailer is still trading. The contract is between end-user and retailer. This goes with the territory – but they expect to be paid. I've yet to find a surviving retailer operating under charity status.
I'm unclear as to why a retailer being caught between a rock (the maker) and the hard place (the end-user) is not entitled to be compensated financially. The audiophile World, in this respect at least, is no different from any commercial activity in the real world. Do a job and get paid. Regretfully though, the quality of the job done bears little correlation to the money paid. But that's a story for another time.
My guess is that within the next 12 months we'll see at least one major maker/importer/distributor getting rid of their entire retail network and selling direct to the public. How do I know? Because I was invited to advise on such a process and the implications. I submitted my report and time will tell if they adopt the proposals. It's evolution at work. Delinquent retailers have no more right to survive than delinquent makers do.
For those interested in learning more, check out what Naim are doing and have been doing – marketing-wise. They and Rega are the sharpest tools operating these days. Meanwhile Linn look like sad also-rans - in the marketing stakes. Anyway, I have no financial involvement with them primarily because I'm able to think for myself and that's really not an attribute that is encouraged. For those that need to be led and spoon-fed and cuddled though, Naim and Rega are doing a terrific job. And candidly I have considerable respect for their skill, clarity of vision and focus.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 14:30
So apart from the fact that some manufacturers don't like talking to their customers there seems to be little to justify their existence so far.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 14:35
So apart from the fact that some manufacturers don't like talking to their customer (what a bloody daft concept) there seems to be little to justify their existence so far.
Hey - I didn't think up the concept or the attitude. Certainly the news is unpalatable for the overly sensitive. Meanwhile some of them laugh all the way to the bank. That's life! The successful ones are driven primarily by money. Nothing wrong with that other than so many dreamers in consumer-land would wish it were otherwise. How do I know? Because I've socialised with many of the survivors since 1976.
The involvement in the audio world is no more an indication of benign attitudes than classical music is the litmus test of civilised behaviour. Ache mein Gott! - did Howard really say that? Oh yes he did. And he believes it too.
So are you saying all the companies that supply you are not interested in having anything to do with the person who provides everyone with their income.
No, I didn't say that. And all what companies incidentally?
As a customer in many different markets I definitely would not be happy in buying anything from someone who disliked me and didn't want to help or talk to me.
Fair enough As for me, I take a more pragmatic view. Moreover I'm far more inclined to buy from someone who's product knowledge is greater than their empathetic skills. I am I assure most certainly not "a fool for a pretty face". So far I've neglected to ask my window cleaner if he really really loves me, or merely deeply respects me. How remiss of me.
As a customer in many different markets I definitely would not be happy in buying anything from someone who disliked or was indifferent to me and didn't want to help or talk to me.
Yup, that's not good, is it? :rolleyes:
I understand where Howard's coming from (some manufacturers aren't too hot on their people skills, and so a friendly dealer can act as a useful conduit), but what he's described is one of the reasons why I've assembled a system now from 'specialised' components, so that I need never associate with dealers (not all are friendly, like Howard) or any awkward people again.
My first port of call, should I need help or support, is directly with the maker (usually a friendly and helpful 'one man band', some of whom are personal friends), or those who have modified my equipment. These days, I wouldn't have it any other way! :)
Marco.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 14:41
My first port of call, should I need help or support, is directly with the maker or those who have modified my equipment. These days, I wouldn't have it any other way! Marco.
Quite so. But as an experiment if you have the time, try getting through to a techie at Meridian's service dept. Years ago, they were, alongside QUAD the paragon of direct interface with the end-users. Times change - right?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 14:50
Oh dear within a minute of posting and deciding I was pushing too hard, seeing as I sell direct, so could be accused of some form of promotion, and edit my post, I have two replies.
So I would like to state, even though I sell direct is it in my interest to get others to do it and compete more price competitively, obviously not. I argue my point from a concept stand point, that with the internet I do not see justification any longer with a dealer taking half of your money you pay when you buy a product - and this applies to all specialist industries not just Hi-Fi.
I was expecting lots of justification such as dems and service, but not so far. Anyway obviously I think the internet is the future which is why I do it. If you look at the market then over two thirds of current sales are second hand sold directly, that is the growth market and that is what manufacturers have to largely compete with, not other manufacturers - it is a new world.
But as an experiment if you have the time, try getting through to a techie at Meridian's service dept.
Lol - I'll bear that in mind, Howard, one day when I'm exceptionally bored! ;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 15:06
About half the price you pay for a product in a Hi-Fi shop goes to the retailer. Can anyone tell me what they do to justify this?
I'm not aware of any product with that level of markup, certainly not with any specialist products. The large chains may have on the mass market, What Hi-Fi recommended products though.
I'd be interested to know what level of markup a manufacturer selling direct to the public makes ?
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 15:12
If you look at the market then over two thirds of current sales are second hand sold directly, that is the growth market and that is what manufacturers have to largely compete with, not other manufacturers - it is a new world.
I wholeheartedly agree. And here’s one irony of many. One UK maker of my acquaintance (hardly friends though **) and particularly astute at business told me that having produced and sold in excess of 575,000 items in 25 years, the strongest competition in some price bands comes from excellent pieces they made years ago which (regretfully) are still functioning correctly.
** People like this don’t have friends as would be usually understood by that term. Every person in their tight arena is first and foremost viewed as an opportunity, be it commercial or social. Every other consideration is secondary. It’s not so bad though when you realise the relationship for what it really is – and ten make it work for you. Result!
aquapiranha
01-06-2011, 15:14
So basically the article suggests what I have thought for years - the manufacturers and retailers have been paying the customers for fools, selling silly money foo that has driven away those who don't like to be made fools. Look at most audio shops today, is there even ONE that doesn't sell foo items like cryo'd bloody hifi stands and cable lifters? None that try to sell bits of wood as supports, 'audiophile' usb cables? magical mains blocks? We look like a bunch of crackpot idiots to the rest of the world, and it is no surprise to me that the industry has suffered, time to take a step back and take a deep breath. For years we have been lead by manufacturers (some of them less than honest imo) who have been pursuing higher profits from lower cost items like cables, telling us they have near magical qualities while at the same time coining in the extra profit. This lead to many leaving the hifi scene imo, and left mainly those willing to pay for the hocus pocus and therefore ruining the industry. All imo of course.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 15:16
I cannot speak for anyone else but myself. When I dealt with retailers pre 2000 I gave them 50% and many companies I knew did the same. Some companies that felt they were essential agencies may have given less. For new product especially cable at least 50% was required other wise the dealer wouldn't stock it in my experience.
Now my costings are identical to then apart from I sell to everyone at trade price, who ever they are, where ever they are in the world, and obviously that means I do not supply any retailers or distributors, but I would be quite happy to do so if they wish to buy some, but of course they wont.
To give an example the NVA P50 passive pre-amp in 1992 was £220, now it is £190. I have had some small cost reductions (relative to inflation) but most of that difference is retail margin. If I costed in a 4% per annum price increase as one of you agencies does then the P50 would be over £500 by now.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 15:37
So basically the article suggests what I have thought for years - the manufacturers and retailers have been paying the customers for fools, selling silly money foo that has driven away those who don't like to be made fools. Look at most audio shops today, is there even ONE that doesn't sell foo items like cryo'd bloody hifi stands and cable lifters? None that try to sell bits of wood as supports, 'audiophile' usb cables? magical mains blocks? We look like a bunch of crackpot idiots to the rest of the world, and it is no surprise to me that the industry has suffered, time to take a step back and take a deep breath. For years we have been lead by manufacturers (some of them less than honest imo) who have been pursuing higher profits from lower cost items like cables, telling us they have near magical qualities while at the same time coining in the extra profit. This lead to many leaving the hifi scene imo, and left mainly those willing to pay for the hocus pocus and therefore ruining the industry. All imo of course.
But why the surprise? The evidence has been around since the early 1980s. In retrospect though, while that evidence was clear to see, the implications of it were either too absurd or too unpalatable to contemplate. And that's how, in part, we are where we are today.
Mind you, I do feel that the ocasional insertion of the word 'some' might provide some of the younger readers here a slightly more realistic overview. Just a thought. Anyway, moving on ....
In my opinion it started with Linn. was reinforced by the sycophantic audio journalists (Kessler saw through it all though), reinforced by idiot foot-tapping staff in the enthrall of clever flat-earth retailers and lapped up by the gullible public. My view is that this was embraced by Nordost and Hi-Fi Plus and er … the rest is history, or about to become so. I’m so relieved that my retail business is more of a hobby these days. Oh happy daze!
aquapiranha
01-06-2011, 15:45
I am not surprised Howard, hence me saying I have thought the same for years. We have been over run with snake oil salesman and their shills, the dealers. They have been making a killing for years but now it is time to pay the fiddler, and they will be reduced to selling their wares to the needy and gullible on the Internet where costs are lower and you can within reason make all the claims you want and essentially get away with it, despite the ASA recently having a go at one or two foo peddlers. It is about time we all took a long hard look at ourselves in the mirror and decide whether we want to be party to the charade any more. I have moved to streaming of late, I have never bought silly money anything and try to DIY things where I can as my budget dictated but I do not feel I have lost out, on the contrary I often have a chuckle to myself when I see people bang on about expensive cables and the like. One post I read on another forum recently asked a well known poster if they had tried the 'cryo'd' legs for his equipment rack, well, I nearly fell off my chair laughing...:lol:
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 15:54
Surely, we all have a choice to purchase or not to purchase. If you can't hear any difference between an expensive cable and a cheap one, who is going to force you to buy ?
I can tell you that the public isn't that gullible.
I think the issues are a lot deeper than snake oil Steve
I think fashion a lack of imagination to many format wars and far to much negaitive marketing
and high retail costs are in the mix too
The greatest disaster wa the loss of trust by many people
aquapiranha
01-06-2011, 16:02
It is easy to sell things to those who believe what they are being told Dave, don't be naive.
John, you may be right, but how many do you think have been driven away from this hobby due to the amount of nutjobbery that is preached as the gospel truth?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 16:08
Surely, we all have a choice to purchase or not to purchase. If you can't hear any difference between an expensive cable and a cheap one, who is going to force you to buy ?
I can tell you that the public isn't that gullible.
The hi-fi public aren't gullible :lol: now they are learning not to be because of forums like this and the internet. In the past all you had to inform you were magazines, reviewers and retailers, what bloody chance did they stand :(
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 16:12
I am not surprised Howard, hence me saying I have thought the same for years. We have been over run with snake oil salesman and their shills, the dealers. They have been making a killing for years but now it is time to pay the fiddler, and they will be reduced to selling their wares to the needy and gullible on the Internet where costs are lower and you can within reason make all the claims you want and essentially get away with it, despite the ASA recently having a go at one or two foo peddlers. It is about time we all took a long hard look at ourselves in the mirror and decide whether we want to be party to the charade any more. I have moved to streaming of late, I have never bought silly money anything and try to DIY things where I can as my budget dictated but I do not feel I have lost out, on the contrary I often have a chuckle to myself when I see people bang on about expensive cables and the like. One post I read on another forum recently asked a well known poster if they had tried the 'cryo'd' legs for his equipment rack, well, I nearly fell off my chair laughing...:lol:
Too much focus here on foo, you obviously have a big axe to grind. I presume you don't think all hi-fi is foo as that is what we are talking about.
Anyway, foo is in the eye of the beholder, one persons foo is another persons perfectly logical and audible upgrade. It is a moving line of acceptance that has Jimmy Hughes and Peter Belt at one end and the likes of Serge and now you seemingly at the other, per usual somewhere in between is reality.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 16:17
It is easy to sell things to those who believe what they are being told Dave, don't be naive.
John, you may be right, but how many do you think have been driven away from this hobby due to the amount of nutjobbery that is preached as the gospel truth?
I'm not 'naive' far from it, I've been in this business for over 40 years and rarely met anyone who couldn't make up his or her own mind, given a fair demo.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 16:29
I'm not 'naive' far from it, I've been in this business for over 40 years and rarely met anyone who couldn't make up his or her own mind, given a fair demo.
How many retailers give fair demos when they have retail contracts with their major suppliers contracting them to sell "X" amount of product a year to keep the agency, and the deliveries are programmed and the money taken out of your account by standing order. How many of the chains (this obviously doesn't apply to you) give fair dems when their salesmen are given extra commission for product their bosses want to or have to sell.
The industry has been notorious for unfair dems, from Linn reps deliberately buggering other TTs in shop dem rooms, and being caught on camera doing it, to something as simple as judicious volume control tweeks, or even the classic wagging foot on the product you want to sell. I am afraid the retailers have lost any credibility they used to have - IMO obviously.
aquapiranha
01-06-2011, 16:31
Richard. I never said everything in the audio business is foo. There are many many manufacturers who produce quality items at fair prices (you included imo, though I have never heard any of it) but there are far too many people with their fingers in the foo pie. Look at people like machined ynamica, belt ( he does not deserve a capital letter for his name) etc, there are endless companies trying to part the gullible from their hard earned. I worked on the industry for a bit (when Linn started putting the thumbscrews on the dealers) and have been an outside observer ever since. Of course you can say that one man's foo is another's panacea, but equally there are those who see it as a con, and those people have been driven away from the scene by it imo.
EDIT I read your points about the Linn reps, I only met one once in the shop and he was of the single speaker foot tapping type... lol.
Edited again, to add... I missed your point about having an axe to grind, why would you think that would be? Do you think I was abused as a child by a cable salesman? ;-) What I mean is, I don't make them, so I have nothing to gain from people selling them, and equally I do have nothing to lose if other people buy them. So I am not sure what you mean here, though I think you would be correct in saying that I would look stupid by association.... haha
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 16:50
Richard. I never said everything in the audio business is foo. There are many many manufacturers who produce quality items at fair prices (you included imo, though I have never heard any of it) but there are far too many people with their fingers in the foo pie. Look at people like machined ynamica, belt ( he does not deserve a capital letter for his name) etc, there are endless companies trying to part the gullible from their hard earned. I worked on the industry for a bit (when Linn started putting the thumbscrews on the dealers) and have been an outside observer ever since. Of course you can say that one man's foo is another's panacea, but equally there are those who see it as a con, and those people have been driven away from the scene by it imo.
EDIT I read your points about the Linn reps, I only met one once in the shop and he was of the single speaker foot tapping type... lol.
Edited again, to add... I missed your point about having an axe to grind, why would you think that would be? Do you think I was abused as a child by a cable salesman? ;-) What I mean is, I don't make them, so I have nothing to gain from people selling them, and equally I do have nothing to lose if other people buy them. So I am not sure what you mean here, though I think you would be correct in saying that I would look stupid by association.... haha
I dunno why, I am just observing what I read, and so far it is all about foo, so I presumed you were obsessed with it, that is what I mean by axe to grind.
Anyway I produce and sell cables both interconnect and speaker and I have cheap ones and expensive ones, that for a lot of people makes me an arch foo merchant, and I have been called at and insulted about it on other forums (when I was allowed to be a member) on numerous occasions.
I have been called at and insulted about it on other forums (when I was allowed to be a member) on numerous occasions.
There is nothing worse than armchair critics and I find that these people are invariably the ones who have never listened to the products concerned. It's ok to dislike a product, but to have an opinion you must have experience.
This is an excellent article by Ken Kessler, describes in fine detail the downfall of hi-fi retailing.
http://www.pstracks.com/featured/the-state-of-audio-retailing-today/
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 18:41
This is an excellent article by Ken Kessler, describes in fine detail the downfall of hi-fi retailing.
http://www.pstracks.com/featured/the-state-of-audio-retailing-today/
35 years in and out of this business as a retailer and I have to tell you that KK is spot-on - in my direct personal experience. His is not the entire story though and he wouldn't claim that it is. However, full story or not, personally and despite being called a reckless optimist more times than I can remember, I do believe the decline is irreversible.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 19:09
All that is happening is that the industry is going back to its enthusiast roots as it was in the 50's and early 60's. Then it was all tweakers and bodgers and DIY, that will now become a major part of the hobby again, second hand will still flourish and some brands will become collected (some like Tannoy and Garrard already are) some product will appreciate in value especially as the companies that cannot adjust to the new market fold.
Small 1 to 3 man companies will produce speciality gear and sell it direct via the internet, forums will keep us active and alive, and the expression Hi-Fi will disappear off the mainstream wavelength, until in the future someone in the Times or similar writes an article about this wonderful sound / music we are all missing out on and it will have a mini revival before sinking out of sight like the Titanic with this generation of geeks.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 19:27
You can't blame it all on retailers - many are very good indeed and nothing like Kessler makes out.
He conveniently omits to point out that the UK mags are, at least, equally to blame for any decline in this hobby of ours.
For years now, the mags have given us biased and totally misleading reviews, rarely criticising the equipment and eulogising over some very poor products. With circulations of just a few thousand, they can't afford to upset the manufacturers who keep the mags afloat with their advertising. They can't bite the hand that feeds them.
What happens when a potential purchaser reads a rave review of a product which doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the article says ? He gets disenchanted with it all and goes on holiday or spends it on booze instead. Over the years I have dealt with hundreds of WHF readers, who have been bitterly disappointed with the 5 star products which were nowhere near as good as they were supposed to be.
As to 'The wars' he referred to - who started all that other than the mags, continually looking for the next big thing to boost their falling circulation. What happened to all those 'Home Cinema' mags that appeared ten years ago ?
IMO, our mags are biased, misleading, poorly written and totally boring. They do nothing to interest or excite a potential Hi-Fi purchaser. If you want to see how a mag should be, just take a look at some of the Japanese mags, as they are truly inspirational.
Hi-Fi may be in decline in this country but it is very much alive and kicking in most other countries in the World.
Rare Bird
01-06-2011, 19:35
I've not used a dealer since 1987.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 20:02
You can't blame it all on retailers - many are very good indeed and nothing like Kessler makes out.
...... and nothing like Kessler makes out? Are you serious? Nothing? Oh come come, we all know better than that - or should do.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 20:03
IMO, our mags are biased, misleading, poorly written and totally boring.
I do agree. Is there a reason then why you advertise in them?
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 20:05
I stand by what I said.
Not all retailers are as Kessler makes out.
Are you ?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 20:09
I could write a book about my dealing with Hi-Fi retailers and what has happened and what I have observed. The demise of the hi-fi industry is fairly placed on their doorstep. They set themselves up as the arbiters of the industry, by comparison the magazines publishers are just opportunists who fleece markets until there is no more spare dosh to fleece and then they turn to another market. There is always a mug who want a magazine somewhere, even if it is just Big Tits International or something similar. The retailers can't change, though they all tried to with home cinema. As for the reviewers, well they are just the clowns in the circus.
All in all it is just a horror story of incompetence and greed.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 20:10
I do agree. Is there a reason then why you advertise in them?
To reach Hi-Fi enthusiasts who might read Hi-Fi News.
To be honest, I can't remember the last time a customer told me he saw the ad in Hi-Fi News, so I might stop it soon but it's a hard habit to break after 35 years or so.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 20:19
To reach Hi-Fi enthusiasts who might read Hi-Fi News.
To be honest, I can't remember the last time a customer told me he saw the ad in Hi-Fi News, so I might stop it soon but it's a hard habit to break after 35 years or so.
Well, I guess that goes for me too. Or rather, up until last August. And then I stopped advertising in the mags, my profit percentage per transaction rose a bit and I became a tad less grumpy.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 20:31
The only mag that has ever worked for me has been Hi-Fi News. Even inside back covers of What Hi-Fi brought in no extra customers. I might cut it down to 1/4 soon - the World won't end, will it ? ..:rolleyes:
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 20:32
I stand by what I said.
Not all retailers are as Kessler makes out.
Are you ?
It’s a good question. Well, back in the early 1980s I did follow, or try to follow the Linn way of doing things. I, like so many others were summoned at our own expense to receive the ‘Linnjection’ as it was known. The psychological techniques applied were, for the industry at that time, very sophisticated.
Anyway, retailers like me were subject to (a) mystery shoppers who reported back to Linn any deviation from their gospel and the (b) unannounced and unwelcome visits from Mr. Russ Andrews, the self-appointed Linn ‘enforcer’ or ‘gauliter’ who would creep in and would be seen innocently bouncing our 6 or so demo LP12s up and down.
In those days Linn were a financial lifeline for many retailers and via their thuggish Irish rep made it very clear that the lifeline was neither infinite nor permanent. So with this in mind, back to your question.
Yes indeed for a short while I did. I was indeed as KK describes. But the words, the gestures, the practiced body-language (the Linn way of moving) and all that really stuck in my throat. So I went back to being me and have remained so ever since. Everyone, including Pink Triangle, Michell Engineering, Micro Seiki were delighted – but Linn took me off their Christmas card list.
Hi Richard,
I could write a book about my dealing with Hi-Fi retailers and what has happened and what I have observed. The demise of the hi-fi industry is fairly placed on their doorstep.
First of all, and this is not intended to be condescending, I've enjoyed most of your recent contributions, and consider that you have something valid to contribute to AoS. It's also patently obvious that you want to fit in, and are trying to do so; therefore I thank you for that.
However, your clear disdain for hi-fi retailers (whether justified or not) is a problem. This is quite simply because, as I'm sure you're aware, we have a few hi-fi retailers here, all which are valued, and whom we consider as the 'good guys'.
Therefore, although you're entitled to your opinion, I must ask that you refrain any further from having a pop at hi-fi dealers, as it's only going to cause friction and division, and that is something we cannot allow. The old ranting topics are creeping through again, mate, and it's not good.
I do hope you understand the reason for my request, and that you will react in the right way, and leave this particular 'bee in your bonnet' well alone in future. Just concentrate on what you do best, which is offering members your support and experience in the areas where you can genuinely help :)
Marco.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 20:34
All that is happening is that the industry is going back to its enthusiast roots as it was in the 50's and early 60's. Then it was all tweakers and bodgers and DIY, that will now become a major part of the hobby again, second hand will still flourish and some brands will become collected (some like Tannoy and Garrard already are) some product will appreciate in value especially as the companies that cannot adjust to the new market fold.
Small 1 to 3 man companies will produce speciality gear and sell it direct via the internet, forums will keep us active and alive, and the expression Hi-Fi will disappear off the mainstream wavelength, until in the future someone in the Times or similar writes an article about this wonderful sound / music we are all missing out on and it will have a mini revival before sinking out of sight like the Titanic with this generation of geeks.
I really like that prediction. I really do - and I hope it comes to pass.
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 20:38
There is always a mug who want a magazine somewhere, even if it is just Big Tits International or something similar.
Seems like I'm again out of touch. I thought that 'Asian Babes' Mag was was de riguer in the industry.
hifi_dave
01-06-2011, 20:43
It’s a good question. Well, back in the early 1980s I did follow, or try to follow the Linn way of doing things. I, like so many others were summoned at our own expense to receive the ‘Linnjection’ as it was known. The psychological techniques applied were, for the industry at that time, very sophisticated.
Anyway, retailers like me were subject to (a) mystery shoppers who reported back to Linn any deviation from their gospel and the (b) unannounced and unwelcome visits from Mr. Russ Andrews, the self-appointed Linn ‘enforcer’ or ‘gauliter’ who would creep in and would be seen innocently bouncing our 6 or so demo LP12s up and down.
In those days Linn were a financial lifeline for many retailers and via their thuggish Irish rep made it very clear that the lifeline was neither infinite nor permanent. So with this in mind, back to your question.
Yes indeed for a short while I did. I was indeed as KK describes. But the words, the gestures, the practiced body-language (the Linn way of moving) and all that really stuck in my throat. So I went back to being me and have remained so ever since. Everyone, including Pink Triangle, Michell Engineering, Micro Seiki were delighted – but Linn took me off their Christmas card list.
Maybe I was lucky or maybe they didn't want to upset me because I was writing in most of the mags back then but we never had any pressure from Linn.
We had a shop full of alternative turntables, arms and cartridges along with all manner of valve amps, ELS and ribbon speakers and ( horror ) a demo room with more than one pair of speakers. The reps came twice a year for a chat and takeaway Chinese and that was that. We carried on in our own way.
That was until the 'great cull' in the late 80's when they did apply pressure and I bowed out...:thumbsup:
I was expecting lots of justification such as dems and service, but not so far.
Give us a chance, Richard, been out all day and only just catching up on the swarms of posts. ;)
As a consumer, the two points you've noted are very valuable to me. Now, I know service doesn't have to be the exclusivity of a retailer (witness the excellent service I have received from Stan Beresford as have many, many others - not singling Stan out, but I've never had the pleasure of dealing with you Richard :)) but it is something I value highly. Maybe it is because I come from a service industry background, and also a "middle man" (nothing to do with hifi) that I highly value someone who will give me advice that could well save me money in the long run.
Demonstrations, then. I don't know if you do a "money back guarantee" but I know some of the manufacturers/internet only retailers do, albeit with a small surcharge in some cases. However, I've always valued the opportunity to compare different products from up and down a manufacturer's range, and also across different manufacturers. It's just not possible to do that if you buy direct - at least not without a lot of hassle, and giving your postman a hernia!
Maybe I've been lucky, or not gone to posh enough shops, but I've never felt I've been sneered at or disrespected in any hifi shop I've ever used. (That includes 3 Sevenoaks, I would add.) In most cases, the dealer has been extremely patient and helpful, setting up kit for me to listen to and compare, and answering questions when asked. I don't think I've ever been "sold" anything I didn't want - or persuaded that my choice was the wrong one by a pushy salesman wanting more commission. Maybe I frighten them! ;) That said, I've never spent more than £1,500 in a hifi shop at one go, so I'm hardly a big catch anyway - but in all cases I can think of I've never felt badly treated.
So, in summary - I personally don't have a problem with a dealer taking a margin on anything that I buy from him, provided he has done a good job helping me to select the equipment and demonstrate it - and I would also feel happy knowing that if the unit should have issues the dealer will be there for me (this did happen with a Sevenoaks CD player which went bang - they even loaned me one whilst mine was being sorted.)
Maybe I've been lucky with my dealer experiences?
One other thing I'd just like to add though - I personally would never get advice and a demo of kit from a dealer, and then go and order it cheaper off the internet - jolly bad form in my book, but I appreciate some people will feel differently!
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 21:01
Well it seems we have a cross section of the industry here and occasionally someone has a dig at one or other part of it, so everyone should have fairly thick skin. You know my opinion on discussion in that as long as the subject is discussed' all opinions no matter how extreme are valid, it all Fffs up when the posts are turned on the person posting instead of the subject i.e. ad hominem. That hasn't happened and the subject has been handled well between two retailers and myself and no one has resorted to insult, which is truly a forum first and has lifted both of those retailers in my estimation. If all the retailers I had the experience of had been like these two (and I had no dealings with either of them) perhaps my view of retailers wouldn't be so bad.
So has anyone complained or are you just doing a bit of pre-emptive arbitration?
Neil McCauley
01-06-2011, 21:05
I've just received an amusing phone call from an amused AoS visitor to expand on what I meant by the ‘Linn way of moving’ as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I’m happy to. And I’m chuckling as I write this.
The entire emphasis was on ‘predicting the tune’ rather than following the tune. Only the LP12 could achieve this miracle – apparently. Anyway, Linn were far from idiots and knew full well that the power of the music demo and the well-rehearsed customer instruction could only go so far. What was needed was for the dealer to get in the groove and by osmosis get the buyer in the groove too.
This required rhythmic foot-tapping, even after the music stopped (to show the long lasting pleasurable impact) plus finger-clicking plus for the advanced students, rhythmic head nodding that was perfectly in synch with the foot tapping and finger clicking concurrently. Okay so far?
All of this of course had to be clearly visible to the potential buyer. But the point where the sale was closed would ideally require the salesperson to elegantly rise to his feet and stand in front of, but to one side of the visitor. And this is where, try as I may, I became unstuck dear readers.
Lacking the grace and calm agility of a latter-day Fred Astaire, it was beyond my ability to rise to my feet while foot-tapping, finger clicking and head nodding. I just didn’t have the necessary co-ordination. Clearly some did though.
I was reduced in the ranks, down to a b-list kefir. I should mention that to his credit, Ivor was remarkable light on his feet in those days. I assumed he was a trained ballroom dancer or at least a devoted enthusiast of that silly art. He certainly understood a helluva lot about body-language.
Well it seems we have a cross section of the industry here and occasionally someone has a dig at one or other part of it, so everyone should have fairly thick skin. You know my opinion on discussion in that as long as the subject is discussed' all opinions no matter how extreme are valid, it all Fffs up when the posts are turned on the person posting instead of the subject i.e. ad hominem. That hasn't happened and the subject has been handled well between two retailers and myself and no one has resorted to insult, which is truly a forum first and has lifted both of those retailers in my estimation. If all the retailers I had the experience of had been like these two (and I had no dealings with either of them) perhaps my view of retailers wouldn't be so bad.
So has anyone complained or are you just doing a bit of pre-emptive arbitration?
With respect, Richard, I'm not at liberty to answer that. However, thanks for responding positively. I do agree with your summary.
Anyway, I think that my point has been made and understood, and we can move the discussion forward now :)
Marco.
One other thing I'd just like to add though - I personally would never get advice and a demo of kit from a dealer, and then go and order it cheaper off the internet - jolly bad form in my book, but I appreciate some people will feel differently!
Hear, hear, Alex. I hear of people doing that all the time across many products and they don't seem to think of it as immoral. If I go to a dealer about a product and I like it, I buy it from them. End of.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 21:29
Why is it immoral :scratch: no one has a right to do business, and if they cannot get their price right then that is their problem. Retailers are largely a bunch of girlies over this, and will do each other out of sales with no conscience by dropping price a smidge below the opposition.
Anyway I give a no quibble 30 day return and often I have had to refund a product where the customer has taken advantage of the free trial and then buys nva second hand on forums or at ebay. I couldn't give a toss, I am happy for my products to have a good home and I don't care if they are second hand or new. Often I use the ebay find member page to get an email address of the winner of a 2nd hand NVA auction to tell him we are here to help if he has problems, everything we have made is still part of our family no matter who owns it.
EDIT:- also I watch sales at ebay and if I think they are going for a too low price I will bid myself, so far I haven't had to buy any. If they go for silly price I would prefer to have them myself.
Why is it immoral :scratch: no one has a right to do business, and if they cannot get their price right then that is their problem.
No, that is more to do with pre-selection. What I'm saying is that going to a retail outlet and engaging the salesman for a demo with the knowledge that one is then going to buy the thing cheaper on the internet is immoral.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 22:51
Sorry I disagree, it has always happened and it will continue to happen. And it works both ways, you don't have to hold the dealers hand, all is fair in love, war and business is the normal way it seems.
The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2011, 23:07
Sorry I disagree, it has always happened and it will continue to happen. And it works both ways, you don't have to hold the dealers hand, all is fair in love, war and business is the normal way it seems.
Martin & Alex' moral compass (& mine too for that matter) obviously point in a slightly different direction to yours in this regard Richard.
You say it works both ways - how might a dealers actions mirror those of a customer who takes advantage of a lengthy demonstration and sometimes a home loan, to be followed by a Google aspirated sale elsewhere?
Plenty of things have always happened and always will (murder for instance?) That doesn't make them right or moral.
These days I take the road less travelled I have mostly bespoke items or gear I got from members on the site and even ebay
I know a few people in the buisness like Howard (like Chris it was Howard who introduced me to this site) Vic and Tim (MAD Audio)
My sense is that they all work their butts off.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
01-06-2011, 23:47
Not a sensible comparison.
Anyway what I am saying is that they are protecting a dealer who given the chance would take the sale off another dealer in the same way. I saw it all the time when I was dealing with them. They really don't need your sympathy or protection. It happens with cars it happens with furniture it happens in any form of business, people try to get the best deal they can it is human nature, it is not illegal and in my opinion it is not immoral, it is business.
I was trying to explain with my example that dealers and business men of all sorts just accept it as normal, but they will prey on you sensibilities to try an keep you, that is just salesmanship. The answer for them is if they can't get the sale because they charge too much then perhaps they should offer it at a more competitive price, they all have websites now.
Feeling sorry for a dealer in anything not just hi-fi is misplaced as given the opportunity they will just do the same thing back to their competition. But feel and do how you like about it, I am just expressing my opinion, as is my wont and is what a forum is largely about, I believe.
The Grand Wazoo
02-06-2011, 00:01
I'm not entirely sure that anyone has actually suggested you don't have the right to express an opinion.
Of course any dealer would accept the trade of someone who procured a demonstration elsewhere, but how are they to know this has been the case? Being on the other end of the transaction is not the same as seeking out a service, knowing full well that you're going to take your cash elsewhere.
Whilst I appreciate the opinions being expressed, I think that the key to this is whether one would consider such behaviour as "immoral", or merely "bad form".
I guess it all depends on one's sensibilities. I understand why some would feel strongly enough to consider it as the former, but on balance, I would opt for the latter. What's being described is certainly not something I've done, or indeed would ever consider doing.
My view is that if someone has worked for my business, then they deserve to get it. I almost never buy solely on price, with anything, least of all audio equipment. 'Going the extra mile' with a customer is a concept I wholly approve of and value.
I believe in rewarding good service, and I reward good service with loyalty.
Marco.
The issue with hi-fi, at least with anything considered above budget level, is that we say time and time again to prospective buyers that they should get a demo, or a home loan, and not order equipment blind. Now, that's far easier said than done. Problems include no dealer or agency in the country, no dealer anywhere near where you live, dealers that don't stock enough range to be able to assemble a system like yours, etc.
My take is that I'll do a lot of research and, if at all possible, I'll travel the country to listen to it. I did this with my Usher speakers and the dealer couldn't have been more helpful. Of course I placed the order with him. At other times I've had to take a punt, on the basis that I never spend more than I can afford and can resell the item if it really doesn't work out. I did this recently with my Choir Audio SUT purchase from the US.
The dilemma is how to advise people new to hi-fi to go to a dealer and have a proper demo when there are so many internet box-shifters who will gladly take your money, ship the product and never give any post-sales support. If we condone going to the dealer first then buying on the internet, dealerships will continue to die at a very fast rate. That is not what we want to see if hi-fi as a pursuit is to survive. It's not about feeling sorry for the dealer, it's about survival of the supply chain and giving proper support.
Whether you call it immoral or bad form, surely the danger is clear?
I did the same when I went down the Open baffle route I heard a few different types and travelled across the country I read forums and reviews and then went for it, even then I still had worries about room size
I find that one of the great things about forums is that people are often willing to help
I find that one of the great things about forums is that people are often willing to help
That's absolutely true John, and everyone is very well meaning, but it doesn't automatically mean you'll get good advice! Nearly always (myself included) if you are asked to recommend (say) speakers, people will support their own buying choices or experiences - so for instance you would recommend OB's and I would recommend BBC Inspired 2'x1'x1' boxes - so in a way, you'll get just as biased a view! That's not so say it is wrong as everyone is very passionate about the hobby but it won't always guarantee the best choice for every individual. A lot better than starting off on your own with a copy of WHF? though! :)
Yes agree Alex but that is why it so important for people to hear for themselves. We are well meaning, it does not mean we right and my musical values might be different to yours
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
02-06-2011, 08:46
The issue with hi-fi, at least with anything considered above budget level, is that we say time and time again to prospective buyers that they should get a demo, or a home loan, and not order equipment blind. Now, that's far easier said than done. Problems include no dealer or agency in the country, no dealer anywhere near where you live, dealers that don't stock enough range to be able to assemble a system like yours, etc.
My take is that I'll do a lot of research and, if at all possible, I'll travel the country to listen to it. I did this with my Usher speakers and the dealer couldn't have been more helpful. Of course I placed the order with him. At other times I've had to take a punt, on the basis that I never spend more than I can afford and can resell the item if it really doesn't work out. I did this recently with my Choir Audio SUT purchase from the US.
The dilemma is how to advise people new to hi-fi to go to a dealer and have a proper demo when there are so many internet box-shifters who will gladly take your money, ship the product and never give any post-sales support. If we condone going to the dealer first then buying on the internet, dealerships will continue to die at a very fast rate. That is not what we want to see if hi-fi as a pursuit is to survive. It's not about feeling sorry for the dealer, it's about survival of the supply chain and giving proper support.
Whether you call it immoral or bad form, surely the danger is clear?
I have heard this argument in every single business type from banks to greengrocers, it is just holding onto the old way, the world moves on. Of course we lose something, that is normal. I could hark back to the service from all types of shops and banks in the 60's, different and far better than now, but now it is a different world.
I've just received an amusing phone call from an amused AoS visitor to expand on what I meant by the ‘Linn way of moving’ as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I’m happy to. And I’m chuckling as I write this.
The entire emphasis was on ‘predicting the tune’ rather than following the tune. Only the LP12 could achieve this miracle – apparently. Anyway, Linn were far from idiots and knew full well that the power of the music demo and the well-rehearsed customer instruction could only go so far. What was needed was for the dealer to get in the groove and by osmosis get the buyer in the groove too.
This required rhythmic foot-tapping, even after the music stopped (to show the long lasting pleasurable impact) plus finger-clicking plus for the advanced students, rhythmic head nodding that was perfectly in synch with the foot tapping and finger clicking concurrently. Okay so far?
All of this of course had to be clearly visible to the potential buyer. But the point where the sale was closed would ideally require the salesperson to elegantly rise to his feet and stand in front of, but to one side of the visitor. And this is where, try as I may, I became unstuck dear readers.
Lacking the grace and calm agility of a latter-day Fred Astaire, it was beyond my ability to rise to my feet while foot-tapping, finger clicking and head nodding. I just didn’t have the necessary co-ordination. Clearly some did though.
I was reduced in the ranks, down to a b-list kefir. I should mention that to his credit, Ivor was remarkable light on his feet in those days. I assumed he was a trained ballroom dancer or at least a devoted enthusiast of that silly art. He certainly understood a helluva lot about body-language.
Howard, that's cruel and not strictly truthful for the vast majority of old-time Linn dealers out there.
Regular visitors here will know something of my history and the many years I spent working for one of Linns biggest UK dealers. of course we in believed the musical superiority of the LP12 and on the records we played this superiority was tangible at the time. ALL good systems "play a tune" properly and the most lasting and fondly loved products all do this to a great extent. One reason why I love the NAS turntables so is because the cheapest one played the LP12 at its own game and beat it soundly when I did the comparison! Glenn crofts designs have always been "tuneful" but the current ones are better "hifi" products too. The reason hifi dave and I laugh at some of the trouser-wetting going on concerning these old Japanese uber-cool and expensive direct driven confections is that they didn't communicate as well, although I do accept that modern pickups, phono stages and mounting arrangements may "turn the tables" a good bit now with these decks.
Interesting how so many experienced Linn dealers (and Ivor and Julian too) had such a love of the Garrard 301 and 401 - they "played tunes" too and both these characters always spoke lovingly of them I remember..
Were we brainwashing the customers? I don't think the better Linn dealers were, not really, but perhaps some of the smaller second-rank dealerships were limited in the alternative products available to them. We set the LP12's up better in any case - and I saw some real horrors over the years, I can tell you.....
The reason hifi dave and I laugh at some of the trouser-wetting going on concerning these old Japanese uber-cool and expensive direct driven confections is that they didn't communicate as well, although I do accept that modern pickups, phono stages and mounting arrangements may "turn the tables" a good bit now with these decks.
And the fact, Dave, that the partnering equipment and systems you were demonstrating then were built to compliment the particular sonic signature/colorations of the LP12, which the (vastly superior) and more accurate sounding quality Jap direct-drive T/Ts, showcased in all its glory, thus giving the Linn a distinct advantage during demos!! ;)
Marco.
Neil McCauley
02-06-2011, 10:39
Howard, that's cruel and not strictly truthful for the vast majority of old-time Linn dealers out there.
Regular visitors here will know something of my history and the many years I spent working for one of Linns biggest UK dealers. of course we in believed the musical superiority of the LP12 and on the records we played this superiority was tangible at the time. ALL good systems "play a tune" properly and the most lasting and fondly loved products all do this to a great extent. One reason why I love the NAS turntables so is because the cheapest one played the LP12 at its own game and beat it soundly when I did the comparison! Glenn crofts designs have always been "tuneful" but the current ones are better "hifi" products too. The reason hifi dave and I laugh at some of the trouser-wetting going on concerning these old Japanese uber-cool and expensive direct driven confections is that they didn't communicate as well, although I do accept that modern pickups, phono stages and mounting arrangements may "turn the tables" a good bit now with these decks.
Interesting how so many experienced Linn dealers (and Ivor and Julian too) had such a love of the Garrard 301 and 401 - they "played tunes" too and both these characters always spoke lovingly of them I remember..
Were we brainwashing the customers? I don't think the better Linn dealers were, not really, but perhaps some of the smaller second-rank dealerships were limited in the alternative products available to them. We set the LP12's up better in any case - and I saw some real horrors over the years, I can tell you.....
I don't claim to speak for the vast majority of old-time Linn retailers. I have no basis on which to do so and yes I agree, Linn's behaviour was indeed cruel. But as I said elsewhere on another thread, everything was subservient to making money. Everything! Meanwhile, I write exactly as i experienced the 'Linnjection'. The thing was though, that people who were able to think for themselves turned out to be immune!
Dave wasn't a naim dealer back then (that was only something that happened in the late 90's) and we had other products "not Naim" too, in the latter 80's big Nakamichi (based on Threshold Stasis amp topology). At least I had my pro contacts who tried to keep me sane.
I'm not disagreeing with you though, but there was an undercurrent of smaller Linn dealers not locked into the "vibe" who stayed sane, by and large.
Would you agree, Dave, that what I wrote in my previous post (#98) was also the case?
Marco.
I don't claim to speak for the vast majority of old-time Linn retailers. I have no basis on which to do so and yes I agree, Linn's behaviour was indeed cruel. But as I said elsewhere on another thread, everything was subservient to making money. Everything!
Why should selling hi-fi be different from selling any other product?
Did Henry Ford start making cars because he was upset to see so many people having to walk?
Business is about making money. That is it's raison d'etre. How you run that business and what methods you use will determine it's success or failure and there are many different approaches that can be taken.
Why should a hi-fi dealership be bound by some altruistic imperative when the local car dealership is not?
I don't claim to speak for the vast majority of old-time Linn retailers. I have no basis on which to do so and yes I agree, Linn's behaviour was indeed cruel. But as I said elsewhere on another thread, everything was subservient to making money. Everything! Meanwhile, I write exactly as i experienced the 'Linnjection'. The thing was though, that people who were able to think for themselves turned out to be immune!
Howard, it was the comments you posted that were cruel in my eyes. The people at Linn we dealt with during the 70's and 80's were lovely on the whole and I for one, never saw the nasty side people claim was there, apart from a certain dealer sales director (not in Linn and Naim) who really did seem to have a problem with people not sharing his views - I shall say no more ;)
Ahem, Dave, I've asked you a question. I would therefore be obliged if you scrolled back and answered it ;)
Cheers!
Marco.
Neil McCauley
02-06-2011, 11:10
And the fact that the partnering equipment and systems you were demonstrating then were built to compliment the particular sonic signature/colorations of the LP12, which the (vastly superior) and more accurate sounding quality Jap direct-drive T/Ts showcased in all its glory, thus giving the Linn a distinct advantage during demos!! ;)
Marco.
Spot on Marco. Yes, nothing was left to chance by the Linn mujahedeen. Even the length and positioning of the empty toilet roll cardboard tune to brace the Isobarics against a rear wall was specified. Control was absolute. The skill was to let the buyer think that they were in control, which of course they were not.
Neil McCauley
02-06-2011, 11:15
Why should selling hi-fi be different from selling any other product?
Did Henry Ford start making cars because he was upset to see so many people having to walk?
Business is about making money. That is it's raison d'etre. How you run that business and what methods you use will determine it's success or failure and there are many different approaches that can be taken.
Why should a hi-fi dealership be bound by some altruistic imperative when the local car dealership is not?
Precisely. My point, possibly not well articulated is that the sheep blissfully think that a maker banging on about 'following the tune' is somehow doing it for the altruistic benefit of mankind and that somehow the maker has their wellbeing and musical 'education' and enlightenment at the forefront of their mind and as a consequence drives their every action. Or put differently, the "profittttttttt" was way down the list. The implication being that they'd opt for charity status if only the pesky staff didn't want paying. Herr Goebells would have been so proud - and not for the first time either!
Get real gang; where makers are concerned, music and its reproduction in this specific context is merely a means to an end.
Ahem, Dave, I've asked you a question. I would therefore be obliged if you scrolled back and answered it ;)
Cheers!
Marco.
Ok OK, don't get yer sporran in a tangle :lol:
I thought I'd answered this actually. Although we were one of Linn and Naim's "big three" during much of the 70's and 80's, we did have Quad, Rogers and Spendor (briefly) too and sold plenty of these (not forgetting the ever popular B&O, which didn't clash with any of the others due to its highly polarised client-base).
In my personal opinion, "bolt-up" Naim in general was a very different sounding and better animal to the CB range which followed, although the old NAP160 was closer I found. I shall never have access to an L-07D, but hifi dave has a great story to tell on his comparisons at the time, and he didn't have naim and wasn't a blind LP12 supporter either.. Like I said, modern pickups, supports and phono stages may just redress this, as I discovered with the SL150/1500mk1 models recently.
Finally, I have wonderful memories of a friends "Bolt-up and chipboard" Isobarik tri-amped system. This setup loved the room it was in (always a difficulty with onmi-directionals) and on a decent radio 3 broadcast (and good LP's), sounded so convincing in a "suspending disbelief" kind of way..
Anyway, a sick computer calls, so I'd better go ;)
Spot on Marco. Yes, nothing was left to chance by the Linn mujahedeen. Even the length and positioning of the empty toilet roll cardboard tune to brace the Isobarics against a rear wall was specified. Control was absolute. The skill was to let the buyer think that they were in control, which of course they were not.
Indeed, Howard.
However, in Dave's case, I doubt it would've been intentionally predetermined, but rather simply through circumstances at the time, i.e. how the range of equipment they sold was voiced to suit their then sonic sensibilities (and perhaps their favourite music?) and likely that of most of their customers :)
The quality Jap direct-drive T/Ts then were unquestionably superior, as they are now, (if you value neutrality and faithfulness to the source recording, and not some notion in your head of what sounds 'musical'), but simply didn't synergise well with the equipment that they were partnered with in days when Dave tried it.
It's only now, out with of that restrictive environment, that we're learning what these magnificent turntables are truly capable of!
Marco.
Neil McCauley
02-06-2011, 11:18
Howard, it was the comments you posted that were cruel in my eyes.
Oh I see. And yes of course the truth sometimes hurts.
Neil McCauley
02-06-2011, 11:22
Indeed, Howard. The quality Jap direct-drive T/Ts then were unquestionably superior (if you valued neutrality and faithfulness to the source recording, and not some notion in your head of what sounds 'musical'), but simply didn't synergise with the equipment they were partnered with.
It's only now, out with of that restrictive environment, that we're learning what these magnificent turntables are truly capable of!
Marco.
And that's why to supplement my PT I'm buying a classic Denon DD direct from Japan while I await my custom-built DD from Germany. Not wishing to 'diss' Linn totally, the irony is that I'll probably use an Ittok with a Dynavector 17D-2 on the Denon because they work so well together.
Oh this is turning out to be such a fun thread, truly.
Oh I see. And yes of course the truth sometimes hurts.
:lolsign:
Marco.
Hi Dave,
I shall never have access to an L-07D, but hifi dave has a great story to tell on his comparisons at the time, and he didn't have naim and wasn't a blind LP12 supporter either..
I'm sure it would an amusing tale, which was no doubt a valid and accurate representation of what he heard at the time; but that's all it would be - no more.
The problems start when you attempt to relate those experiences as 'fact' (not saying hifi dave or you are doing that, btw) without looking at the bigger picture and taking due consideration of all the variables applicable....
Quite simply, you can't universally apply, to other circumstances/situations, as fact what you experience with ANY piece of audio equipment, where results are very likely to vary considerably.
Marco.
....which then makes it all a waste of time without some common frame of reference, don't it? A bit like putting a Decca cartridge in an LVX arm........... :D
One old deck I'd like to hear is the German Audio Labor Konstant. I suspect it's been overtaken by some of the current bling-decks with huge polished platters etc, but i remember it being spoken highly of in the 80's..
....which then makes it all a waste of time without some common frame of reference, don't it?
No, you simply file it in your audio memory bank under 'valid experiences', and periodically re-evaluate them as new information comes to light which suggests that said experiences were not as conclusive as first thought.
That's what I do. You cannot expect what you heard 20 or 30-odd years ago, in a particular context, to universally apply now.
Always remain open-minded and receptive to new ideas, some of which may make your old ones redundant! ;)
One old deck I'd like to hear is the German Audio Labor Konstant. I suspect it's been overtaken by some of the current bling-decks with huge polished platters etc, but i remember it being spoken highly of in the 80's..
Although I know of it, I've never heard one. For me though these days - unless a T/T has the uber-accurate speed stability of a quality direct-drive unit (and its fundamental effect on pitch accuracy), it can go in the bin.
Marco.
A very heavy platter being played by a stylus does this in spades Marco. It's when a dust-bug or similar is added under a constant load that this may be a problem :)
Mind you, we don't all play at 3g tracking weight :lolsign:
Lol - 4.05g, actually, is optimal! :ner:
Yes, I do agree, which is why I love the Platine Verdier and similar high-mass string-drive T/Ts, from the likes of Scheu Analog. The problem is though, they're so bloody bulky, and wouldn't fit on my Mana racks...
For that reason, I need a 'compact sized' T/T which gives similar sonic results to the above, in terms of uber-accurate speed stability, without growing a beard before the platter gets up to the right speed!! :lol:
Marco.
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