1 pair of home speakers @ 1/4 ton per side [Archive]

anthonyTD

19-05-2011, 09:42

hifi_dave

19-05-2011, 10:08

All very well in theory but in practice they are not so good.

Some years ago there was a fad for using multiple tiny Jordan Watts modules. I can't recall the product names just now but they weren't in production for very long. Problem was, notalotta bass and modules running out of excursion.

Even further in the dim and distant - Celef/ProAc made a couple of designs using multiple arrays of 1 inch domes, Peerless I believe. They were fast all right but had the same problem with a lack of bass and limited volume levels.

Just remembered that one of the companies using multiple modules was Seventh Veil. I seem to recall that it was an 'egg' shaped speaker. Very well put together but no bass and no volume. At least for an old head banger like me...:brickwall:

Marco

19-05-2011, 10:31

Although Anthony has a point, I would agree, Dave. I like to shift plenty of air and move significant amounts of cone area (cleanly) in the process, and for me nothing does that better than what I've heard from huge Tannoy DCs using 15-inch drivers! Or perhaps John's OBs?

Also, I feel that baffle width plays a big part in achieving genuine SCALE (different from bass depth or quantity), and the current fad for tall, skinny floor-standers with multiple arrays of teeny-weeny drive units, just doesn't do it for me. Quite simply, they're a compromise in an attempt to achieve domestic (aesthetic) harmony, commonly known as 'WAF'.

Give me big, wide and fat, any day, over tall and skinny - except when it comes to women! :eyebrows:

Marco.

MartinT

19-05-2011, 10:51

Give me big, wide and fat, any day, over tall and skinny - except when it comes to women! :eyebrows:

I was about to put you right there Marco, but you said it first ;)

I agree with your sentiments, there's no substitute for surface area when it comes to bass drivers.

Interestingly, calculating the surface area of our respective speakers yields 177 sq.in for your 15" Tannoys and 190 sq.in for my dual 11" Etons, per speaker. I don't think either of us is lacking the necessary slam :lol:

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 11:24

They look impressive but what do they sound like? My experience of Dynaudio drivers has not always been great.
They certainly may well have fantastic power handling on transients due to the huge voicecoils. But due to that the driver Qts tends to be high as the magnetic system isn't that big in comparison. Might be ok for sealed boxes but i'd never stuff one in a reflex :rolleyes:

MartinT

19-05-2011, 11:39

But due to that the driver Qts tends to be high as the magnetic system isn't that big in comparison.

Leads to low efficiency, which in my opinion almost always equates with restricted dynamics. I've never liked Dynaudio speakers for this very reason. To my ears, high efficiency speakers almost always seem to sound more naturally dynamic.

HighFidelityGuy

19-05-2011, 12:35

I heard some high end Dynaudio's the other week, they were either the Confidence or Evidence model, I forget which. They were paired with some Cyrus mono-blocks. I was fairly impressed with their speed, detail and punch but they lacked the really deep bottom end I like and were a bit splashy and bright sounding for my taste. My ears breathed a sigh of relief when I got home and put my system on. ;)

John

19-05-2011, 13:01

I am with Marco on this give me big 15" drivers anyday
Even with Open Baffles I say design plays a big part in sound
The scale is great but also do subtle too

Techno Commander

19-05-2011, 15:23

For 10 large and 1/4 ton in weight, I would expect to see some much more substantial drivers and cabinets than those.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/images/PeterThomaswBB5_web.jpg

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 15:34

Now were talking :eyebrows: PMC, i'm lovin it :)

MartinT

19-05-2011, 15:38

Them's proper boxes :)

Welder

19-05-2011, 15:51

Volt, black...........l

Marco

19-05-2011, 16:44

Them's proper boxes :)

Indeed, and I like big PMC, ATCs, etc, but personally, I'd like to see that nice big drive unit fitted to a front baffle the same DEPTH as the cabinets shown. Look at how massively deep they are, compared to how wide.... :eek:

In my experience you get more depth and scale from speakers with the same overall internal volume, when they're wider than deeper, thus allowing the huge cones to 'breathe' properly. But not many people can accommodate the extra space such speakers take up. Of course, much also depends on the types of drivers used.

There are ATC monitors on the market, I forget which ones (in fact, PMC may also do some), which use TWIN 15" DRIVERS side-by-side, and I know that JBL do some like that. Now *those babies* are my type of speakers (if I weren't using the Lockwoods)! :fingers: :fingers:

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 16:54

MartinT

19-05-2011, 17:45

In my experience you get more depth and scale from speakers with the same overall internal volume, when they're wider than deeper, thus allowing the huge cones to 'breathe' properly. But not many people can accommodate the extra space such speakers take up. Of course, much also depends on the types of drivers used.

It shouldn't really matter to a point, it's the volume of air that counts. If you remember my speakers, they are considerably deeper than they are wide - measuring some 680mm deep at the base.

Marco

19-05-2011, 19:31

Hi Martin,

"Shouldn't matter", indeed, but in my experience it definitely does.... I'm sure someone who intimately understands loudspeaker design could explain the reason for this.

Btw, I completely agree with what you wrote earlier about low vs. high-efficiency speakers:

Leads to low efficiency, which in my opinion almost always equates with restricted dynamics. I've never liked Dynaudio speakers for this very reason. To my ears, high efficiency speakers almost always seem to sound more naturally dynamic.

That has also been my experience. I've never understood what possible advantage low (or lower) efficiency speakers would have over something else of similar quality that's much easier to drive?

It's no coincidence that the best sound I've ever achieved with my system has been with 95db (high efficiency) Tannoys, driven by 50W of Pure Class A valve power.

It's one of the key reasons why I'm not a big fan of electrostatics, as many of them are painfully inefficient, and thus lack decent loudness capability.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 19:56

Below the frequency where radiation from the driver becomes omnidirectional baffle size will have zero effect (except on diffraction of higher frequencies). If i remember right this is the wavelength equivalent of the cone circumference.

Therefore bass from driver 'X' in a slim baffle will be exactly the same from one in a wider baffle, Martin is correct. At low frequencies it's the amount of air you can shift that counts :)

Go & purchase High Performance Loudspeakers by Martin Colloms & have a good read. I have the latest sixth edition which i recommend for debunking a good load of cobblers ;)

Spectral Morn

19-05-2011, 20:00

hi all,
linear array speakers using reletively small drivers [when done correctly] can be very impresive, the best are ultra fast due to the cones size used being very light, bass weight and impact can also be deceivingly good on some designs.
Also the lack of crossovers is a big plus.
Anthony,TD...

Indeed, such as the Anthony Gallo ref 5's for instance http://www.anthonygallo.co.uk/pages/products-reference-reference5.php

Regards D S D L

Marco

19-05-2011, 20:01

Mark, that may well be the case, but it doesn't support what in some cases I can hear!

"Facts" in audio, often belie what one actually genuinely experiences with ones ears, so there's really no real point debating this issue any further :)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 20:10

"Facts" in audio, often belie what one actually genuinely experiences with ones ears, so there's really no real point debating this issue any further :)

Marco.
Sorry Marco but let me ask you a question :) Do you see big wide baffles on organ pipes in cathedrals & churches? Nope, it's down to the amount of air they can move.

I'm sorry if i'm going to keep sticking to my guns, but it's nothing to do with baffles except on an OB where the bigger the baffle the lower it can reproduce before the wave cancels front to rear.

You yourself have said numerous times that friendly debate is most welcome, so how you can turn round & say that "there's no point in debating this futher" knd of goes against the grain, doesn't it?

You have your opinion & i have mine, don't try to cut me off just because you don't happen to agree :)

Techno Commander

19-05-2011, 20:12

There are ATC monitors on the market, I forget which ones (in fact, PMC may also do some), which use TWIN 15" DRIVERS side-by-side, and I know that JBL do some like that. Now *those babies* are my type of speakers (if I weren't using the Lockwoods)! :fingers: :fingers:

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

ATC SCM300
http://www.traveltraxaudio.com/atc/speakers/loudspeakers/professional-monitors/images/atc-scm300asl-pro.jpg

JBL 4350
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4294921862_e0b3f9a317.jpg

Some people like to use 4 of them.
http://blog.joins.com/usr/i/d/idroid/7/4350-2(1).jpg

The PMC double 15s are stacked. But they are transmission lines though.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue48/images/BB5XBD%20at%20PUT4%20DB5%200034.JPG

Or would Sir prefer the Tannoy FSM, availabl in domestic and pro versions?
http://img2.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/8b/48/exclusivemodel2301/folder/1159995/img_1159995_32593340_0?1265162261
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4309&stc=1&d=1174447172

I would be happy with any of these and would cheerfully throw the telly out the window to make the necessary space. :)

Marco

19-05-2011, 20:13

Sorry Marco but let me ask you a question Do you see big wide baffles on organ pipes in cathedrals & churches? Nope, it's down to the amount of air they can move.

I'm sorry if i'm going to keep sticking to my guns, but it's nothing to do with baffles except on an OB where the bigger the baffle the lower it can reproduce before the wave cancels front to rear.

You yourself have said numerous times that friendly debate is most welcome, so how you can turn round & say that "there's no point in debating this futher" knd of goes against the grain, doesn't it?

You have your opinion & i have mine, don't try to cut me off just because you don't happen to agree.

Lol - that's what I mean... There's no point in having a debate when it's not likely to get us anywhere, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know what I can clearly hear, and so I ain't shifting from my opinion on the matter - and neither are you, so there's not much point going round in circles, dude! ;)

Marco.

Marco

19-05-2011, 20:16

Hi Andy,

Some people like to use 4 of them.
http://blog.joins.com/usr/i/d/idroid/7/4350-2(1).jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4294921862_e0b3f9a317.jpg

Nice collection of 'proper' speakers, particularly the JBLs.... Observe the width vs. depth issue I've been referring to.

That's exactly what I was thinking of! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 20:30

Bit of a problem porting it if you want to tune it low though innit :eyebrows: Well that is if you want the ports on the front or back baffle :)

Marco

19-05-2011, 20:38

Yup, but that wouldn't bother me, dude. I'd love to hear those JBLs driven by my Copper amp (or any quality Class A valve amp), providing that they're not an awkward load, as I think the results would be frightening... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

19-05-2011, 20:45

I'd like to hear them fullstop! Forgetting the cabinet arrangement :eyebrows:

Marco

19-05-2011, 20:48

Yep, they're a damn sight more interesting than those skinny-malinky things Howard linked to earlier (sorry Howard) :)

You can beat shifting air with huge cones!!

Marco.

anthonyTD

19-05-2011, 20:55

hi all,
totaly agree about the efficiency thing, in my opinion high sensitivity, and class A are a match made in heaven. although one can go too far the other way, think Lowthers, sorry if i speak out of turn to the converted, but every guise i have [so far] heard them in i hated!:doh:
Anthony,TD...

anthonyTD

19-05-2011, 20:58

Yep, they're a damn sight more interesting than those skinny-malinky things Howard linked to earlier (sorry Howard) :)

You can beat shifting air with huge cones!!

Marco.
no you cant!:eek::lolsign:
A...

Marco

19-05-2011, 21:04

chelsea

19-05-2011, 21:24

I certainly prefer easy to drive big speakers with a valve amp.

Of course there are exceptions.

Although i'am guessing pmc aren't that efficient every time i've heard them at shows they have been one of the worst sounds i've heard.

Very artificial sound to me.

Much prefer vintage tannoys.

Techno Commander

19-05-2011, 21:53

Yup, but that wouldn't bother me, dude. I'd love to hear those JBLs driven by my Copper amp providing that they're not an awkward load, as I think the results would be frightening... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Sensitivity’ 95 5 dB SPL. lW, lm (3.3 ft) :eyebrows::eyebrows:

anthonyTD

20-05-2011, 09:28

Aye, rock 'n' roll, daddy-o! :gig:

Btw, Betty was round today and liked the KT120s.... :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S What's your view on wide-baffles on speaker cabinets to maximise the sonic impact of large drive units?

hi Daphne,
the phrase can of worms comes to mind.:eek::lol:
However, i think its safe to say there are good and bad aspects of both wide baffle types housing large drivers, and slim baffles housing multiple small drivers. A lot will depend on what they are used for ie; studio monitoring, or home use, also the enviroment in which they are used plays a big part.
My own prefrence is as you know efficient large [ish] drivers in cabinets with enough volume to allow the drivers to work properly!
Anthony,TD...

Marco

20-05-2011, 09:37

hi Daphne,
the phrase can of worms comes to mind....

Indeed - and don't I love opening them, and letting the wee buggers run free!! :eyebrows: ;)

However, i think its safe to say there are good and bad aspects of both wide baffle types housing large drivers, and slim baffles housing multiple small drivers. A lot will depend on what they are used for ie; studio monitoring, or home use, also the enviroment in which they are used plays a big part.
My own prefrence is as you know efficient large [ish] drivers in cabinets with enough volume to allow the drivers to work properly!

A most diplomatic answer, sir! :)

Marco.

Macca

20-05-2011, 12:25

My understandng is that the narrower the front baffle the more stereo imaging will be improved because you are not getting forward reflections off a large wide baffle. hence a lot of modern speakers being very narrow, sometimes with the bass drivers on the side of the cabinet (eg Mission).

Of course back in the '70s they either didn't care or didn't realise that the wide baffles meant worse imaging.

Plus big drivers at 12'' & 15'' are going to result in a wide front baffle ipso facto.

I am also of the opinion that big drivers in big boxes (or maybe open baffle) are the only way to fly and, like Marco I think, I consider good stereo imaging to be secondary to a good tone and wide bandwith reproduction.

As to a wide front baffle actually improving the sound in those terms I don't think I have ever seen that suggested before but that doesn't mean it is not the case.

Neil McCauley

20-05-2011, 18:25

....... and, like Marco I think, I consider good stereo imaging to be secondary to a good tone and wide bandwith reproduction.

I agree 100%.

Reid Malenfant

20-05-2011, 18:41

My understandng is that the narrower the front baffle the more stereo imaging will be improved because you are not getting forward reflections off a large wide baffle. hence a lot of modern speakers being very narrow, sometimes with the bass drivers on the side of the cabinet (eg Mission).

Funny you mention this, but if you think about it it gives the bass driver a decent size baffle to work on ;) As long as it's a true bass driver with the front bass/mid running down to say 150Hz then integration should be good, but it gives that narrow front baffle which is rather good for imaging. On that front i don't think wide baffles are bad in the imaging department just as long as the whole baffle & everything on it is smooth & flat, it's projections & sudden shifts in the baffle that give rise to reflections. Another reason to round off corners as much as possible..

There are quite a few manufacturers that use the very same arrangement as you have pointed out Martin ;)

On another note i'm another person that likes to use decent sized bass drivers, 12" as a minimum in general. Bigger generally gives more bang for your buck :eyebrows:

Magna Audio

22-05-2011, 08:49

Here are my latest / maddest DIY 5 way horns.
Prob weight about 200kgs a side. Birch ply is heavy.
Mid bass conical horns use Pro 15" bass guitar drives and the tapped horn use the venerable 15" Eminence Kappa Pro LFII's.
Mids are JBL2482 phenolics and JBL2435Be's. Tweeters, cheap Eminence.
High efficiency over 105dB/w across the board.

http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/11323/2315754930071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2315754930071997495eMdBlU)

I did run the GRF's as bass bins until the tapped horns were ready.
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/29221/2093609410071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2093609410071997495xTqYUk)

The Tapped horns blew them into the weeds. Flat 22Hz to 90Hz.

Marco

22-05-2011, 09:12

Awesome stuff, Steve - respect! They look great.

Are you single, or do you have an understanding partner? ;)

Marco.

Macca

22-05-2011, 09:14

Blimey O'Riley! Just when you think it can't get any crazier! - I take it these are for your own personal delectation then Steve?

John

22-05-2011, 09:15

Bloody hell Steve thats a lot of work I am sure its been worth it

Magna Audio

22-05-2011, 09:48

Married, two children. Once the dedicated music room was build there was no holding back.
The lounge is large and minimalist now and the music room is all mine.

I guess I will now have to play with 5 channel amping and active crossovers but that is another chapter.
I only got the big inductors to keep the bass crossovers in the right place so it is still very new to me at the moment.

One thing I have found with the conicals and the tapped horns - once modelled in horn resp and using simple 2nd order 12db/oct crossover calcs each way has integrated quite nicely. The sounds from each horn merge nicely to make music.

Sub bass tracks are now something else. The guys over on DIY audio test the subs to the limit. 130dB, 50-60V! Room shaking and ornaments falling... Not my kind of thing and I have found that even at say 70-75dB (way below wife irritation levels) I can listen quite happily hearing everything.

The mid bass horns were a revelation on detail and sheer air power. Horns do couple the drivers air pressure to the air sooo well.
The 2482 mids do lovely mid piano and the 2435's are much happier higher up than 1000Hz where I had them on the 2 way effort.

Not sure how to finish them all. Light oak or tungoil perhaps?

Fuller read is here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/189377-5-way-project-tapped-bass-mids-tweeter-big-boy-system.html
+ all the modelling and crossover details.