Nightmare or Sweet Dream ?

[Peter Stockwell]

Couldn't sleep last night. Soon I'm going to merge the TV rig and the Music rig. I don't intend going 5.1 or such, can't afford the standard I demand.

Since getting the Beresford DAC I've been using iTunes for listening to a lot of music I previously listened to with my CD player. My setup, currently, is very basic. It's iTunes streaming to an Airport Express toslinked to the Beresford DAC.

My thoughts are to get the contents of the external Hard Drive I'm using for music storage transferred to a RAID and/or NAS system. I'm also thinking of, ultimately, directly connecting a Macmini to the DAC. That way I can playback higher rez files, such as the 96Khz/24bit disc supplied with the new John Mellencamp release.

Up to this point I still have a use for my normal pre-amp, for switching and remote volume control. However, there are more and more USB connectable phono stages available. I don't know if there's one that can be considered truly high end, but if there's a demand for it then one, or more, will appear. Leading me to think that a normal preamp will become obsolete.

Think of it, all your music and video sources controllable from your Mac or PC and if you are a died in the wool vinylphile, you can even run you TT via ADC/DAC convertion through the Mac/PC.

I can't help thinking that this is were HiFi is going, I'll certainly be heading down this rocky road!

cheers

[Neil McCauley]

Recent very positive experiences with the Benchmark DAC-1 pre and the Manley Steelhead have caused me to re-evaluate the necessity of preamps. On only very rare occasions have I ever heard a consistent and noticeable sonic improvement (predominantly bass depth and control, ambience and extreme top end detail) achieved by the inclusion of a preamp – as distinct from bypassing the pre altogether.

That was via a very rare Krell 4-box pre from the early 1980s and very recently, the Manley Neoclassic 300B. Other than this, on every occasion I have found the sound to be consistently more engaging by removing the pre. This includes my Levinson ML28, Yamaha C1, Meridian 501, 502 and 601 and various upmarket Trio/Kenwood devices – all now sold, without regret.

However the Benchmark DAC-1 pre and the Steelhead (it has one analogue input, like the Benchmark) seem to move toward the improvement I experienced with the 4-box Krell (and 300B) and away from the slight-to-marked veiling I have heard with all the others I mentioned.

The drawback of course with one analogue input (the Benchmark) and one spare (non-phono) analogue input on the Steelhead is the lack of additional inputs, recording outlets and so on. This is easily and transparently rectified by the remarkable and unique Manley Skipjack. You can read about it here: http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/skipjack.html

So yes, in the same way I have moved away from stand-alone CD players (I now recommend one of the various Benchmark DACs with any decent used transport from eBay, usually £500 or less) I am now in my own system – and those I supply to customers – moving away from conventional preamps. A degree of nostalgia re this I have to admit.

The Manley 300B adds (or perhaps reveals) a degree of musical engagement (I really cannot find a more appropriate word than this) that is superior to anything I have heard here since that old 4-box Krell and the magnificent but infuriating (because of the Camac connectors) Mark Levinson ML6a / ML7 devices. Having said this, the LFD Linestage 3 remains the most musically engaging solid state preamp I’ve yet used here in the past few years.

All in all though, nostalgia apart and for those who aren’t engaged in transferring digital to analogue tape, the days of preamps – other than expensive state-of-the-art ones – seems numbered. I hope I'm wrong, but I don’t think I am.


---//---

[StanleyB]

I have been using my DAC as a pre-amp for some time now. I am trying to find the side screws for my Pioneer C-73 pre-amp so that I can bolt the wooden side panels back on and get rid of it. I haven't used it for months, because DAC to power amp and then speakers is so much more musical.

[Peter Stockwell]

Howard,

I just love your journalistic style, it's down right gorgeous, not a word out of place. My hat's off to you sir!

Thanks for the confirmation of my suspicions, it's always nice to have somebody else thinking on the same wavelength.

Stan,

What's stopping me using your DAC as a preamp is basically no remote control. I know that the dac automatically will select the active input, but I find fine adjustment of volume from the potato patch ;) , almost mandatory.

Talking of remote control, the Lavardin amps don't have it and when Ia sked them more about this they said that most other amps in the world have more distortion and the remote control of volume serves to, for want of a better description, attenuate the distortion that we may be hearing. They said their amps we so clear that, listening was normally at lower levels and the need for a RC volume control was a non issue.

Anyway, going back to my kit, I'm also hesitant about using your dac directly into my Naim poweramp. I've always read that a Naim Poweramp needs to see a bandwidth limited input.

That and the fact that I find making my expensive preamp that I bought new in January redundant a bit dificult to swallow!

All things in good time, eh ?

cheers

[lurcher]

What's stopping me using your DAC as a preamp is basically no remote control. I know that the dac automatically will select the active input

Will it? Mine never did.

[Peter Stockwell]

I assumed because there was no switching that it switched automatically, do I assume mistakenly ?

[Marco]

Recent very positive experiences with the Benchmark DAC-1 pre and the Manley Steelhead have caused me to re-evaluate the necessity of preamps. On only very rare occasions have I ever heard a consistent and noticeable sonic improvement (predominantly bass depth and control, ambience and extreme top end detail) achieved by the inclusion of a preamp – as distinct from bypassing the pre altogether.

...All in all though, nostalgia apart and for those who aren’t engaged in transferring digital to analogue tape, the days of preamps – other than expensive state-of-the-art ones – seems numbered. I hope I'm wrong, but I don’t think I am.


Interesting, Howard. I think there are indeed circumstances where removing a preamp and taking the signal direct through to a power amp is beneficial and your experiences are obviously a case in point. I think any negative aspects of preamps are likely to be realised in the commercial budget to mid-priced sector. They are less likely to exist in 'well-sorted' (usually more expensive) offerings, or in good D.I.Y designs, at least that's what I've found.

I've had the opposite experience to you with preamps, although admittedly I've only tried it on a couple of occasions, probably because to my ears with the equipment I've used, without one, it's always been worse...

The last time was when I owned an Audio Synthesis DAX Decade DAC that had balanced XLR outputs which enabled me, with high quality balanced interconnects, to connect the DAC straight into the XLR sockets on the back of my ECS monoblocks, thus by-passing my Croft valve preamp.

Doing so undoubtedly gave a 'clearer', sharper sound, but it was also much more like hi-fi than music and distinctly lacked the "musical engagement" factor you referred to with the Manley and Krell. By-passing the Croft and using the balanced XLR connections created a more 'impressive' sound but it was definitely not as musical - that sense of 'rightness' and 'magic' the sound had before when the Croft was in line had gone.

I would put this perhaps down to the effect of the valves. I love what valves do in either in a preamp, power amp or even phono stages, and removing the Croft thus also removed the effect of the valves. Maybe it's different with solid-state preamps?

Some will say of course that the sound going direct through the DAC to the power amp was more accurate and that I was simply being seduced by the coloration of the valves, but I would disagree as experience has since taught me that when implemented correctly in a good design valves generally produce a more realistic musical sound than transistors in preamps, power amps, or whatever.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule - valves are not a magic bullet, and there are more than a few crap valve amps out there, as indeed there are solid-state ones, and vice versa. However the Croft Charisma X I have now, particularly since being heavily upgraded and modified by Glenn Croft, sounds so utterly wonderful (better than *any* preamp I have ever owned, and I've owned a few good ones!) that bypassing it would be an anathema.

I've also had quite a bit of experience with passive preamps, both transformer based and standard, and the result has always been negative, making for a soft sound lacking in clarity and dynamics, as well as problems with low gain (having to crank up the volume nearly to full to achieve half decent listening levels) compared to a good active design.

And then of course there's the superb built-in all valve MM phono stage in the Croft which I use on a daily basis... No, for me, I wouldn't swap my Croft preamp for anything, or indeed do away with it altogether as has been described. It's one of my favourite components in my system :)

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

Howard,

I just love your journalistic style, it's down right gorgeous, not a word out of place. My hat's off to you sir!



Thank you. Much appreciated. Really.


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[tfarney]

Some will say of course that the sound going direct through the DAC to the power amp was more accurate and that I was simply being seduced by the coloration of the valves...

OK. Here goes...the sound going direct through the DAC to the power amp is more accurate and you were simply being seduced by the coloration of the valves.

Really. Every circuit, every inch of wire, every plug and jack and potentiometer, even (God help me, I blaspheme...) every valve in the signal chain reduces resolution and increases noise. In theory and, measurably, in practice. Of course that doesn't mean we can hear it. In this case, evidently you can, and it is good...


...but I would disagree as experience has since taught me that when implemented correctly in a good design valves generally produce a more realistic musical sound than transistors in preamps, power amps, or whatever.

...and the name you bestow upon this goodness is "more realistic," but it is not more accurate. Which, of course, doesn't matter a bit to your ears.

Tim

[Peter Stockwell]

Tim,
Straight wire (perfect wire at that) with gain, eh ? It's more complicated, tho, innit ?

Coz there's all the razzmattaz of input and ouput impedances that have to match up. I had a World Audio designs KEL34, it was pretty nice to listen to in the way that EL34 amps are. But it only had a potentiometer as the input stage and volume control, so the input impedance varied with volume.

In my original, err, dream. I was thinking that some kind of preamp "software" on a suitable computer could take the place of a preamp.

Anyway, I have a mac. I know I can use iTunes volume control, but it would appear that it's not bit perfect at lower volumes.

cheers

[tfarney]

Tim,
Straight wire (perfect wire at that) with gain, eh ? It's more complicated, tho, innit ?

Isn't everything more complicated than that? Still, in theory and practice, all of those complications add noise and subtract from absolute resolution. Besides, I'm trying to get Marco to admit that he loves the sound of his own equipment and that it is, in the end, that simple. Work with me....

:)

Tim

[Marco]

Hehe...

Yep, Peter, you're right it is more complicated than that!

Marco.

[tfarney]

You are no fun at all....

:)

Tim

[Peter Stockwell]

Isn't everything more complicated than that? Still, in theory and practice, all of those complications add noise and subtract from absolute resolution. Besides, I'm trying to get Marco to admit that he loves the sound of his own equipment and that it is, in the end, that simple. Work with me....

:)

Tim

Yes, I'd agree with that! but nought wrong with that ;)

back to the thread; I just KAB ps1200'd my Teccie, and more than ever I think that CD players are dead, streaming audio is the way to go for Digital playback, and that LP spinners will find more and more favour for audio geeks.

cheers

[gary]

I have recently spent a lot of money on upgraded naim pre amp as the sonic differences between the 102 that I was using and the 282 I now have are amazing this however has led me to believe that the Pre is in effect an electronic tone control for the sound heard through the speakers, with the naim equipment I am using I do not know if I could connect the cd player directly to the power amp as naim seem to have a wierd way of connecting the system together using din cables and even if it was possible the cdx I use does not have onboard volume control. I could use a potentiometer to limit the volume I suppose but I wonder if anyone cares to coment on the benefits or limitations of this approach.

Gary