View Full Version : F.A.O Rob Holt - Techincs comments on PFM
Hi Rob,
I hope you don't mind me quoting you from PFM but your comments below are so far removed from reality that I had to comment in the interests of accuracy. I normally agree with much of what you have to say about hi-fi but I'm afraid this beggars belief!
You wrote on PFM:
Never heard a 1210 but I have heard the sister models (inc the 1700) back in the day and the idea that these things could be considered alongside a decent LP12 is quite funny.
The best (read very expensive) DDs are great but these middling units were no match for a Planar 3 let alone an LP12.
I can't see that the passing of 20 years would change that.
This 'lets all buy a Technics' thing is a phase (just like the current fad for cheap valve amps) and I predict a short lived one. Folk will hopefully come to their senses in a few years and the Regas, NAs, LP12s will be back on the racks.
I'm sorry but this is complete and utter nonsense. First of all, in stock form an SL-1210 murders a P3 in any sonic parameter you care to mention. The Rega is a toy in comparison - I know because I've owned and used both, including many other Regas.
The Regas are good decks for the money (the budget ones) but quite frankly there is no comparison between any Rega deck and an SL-1210, certainly in terms of engineering quality, and ultimately this impacts on performance. The only thing that holds back a stock 1210 is the quality of ancillaries used such as the tonearm wiring, but to compare the superbly accurate direct-drive motor unit in the 1210 with the flimsy 'rubber band' driven plastic motor unit on a P3 is quite ridiculous.
Low-mass belt drives are ok up to a point but their speed stability issues are showcased in all their 'glory' by something like a 1210, and once, say, fully KAB modified as my deck is, the difference between the performance it offers and even an LP12 or a Spacedeck is pretty huge. I can go into detail about this if you wish as I've owned and used many LP12s through the years and I am obviously very familiar with the 1210.
But what takes the biscuit, Rob, and I've very surprised at you, is you state that you haven't even heard a 1210, so how on earth can you compare it to the decks you mention? :confused:
Furthermore I can assure you that my purchase of a KAB-modified 1210 has absolutely nothing to do with "emperors new clothes" (I'm sure other 1210 owners would agree) - it was quite simply because the deck thus modified is fundamentally superior to *any* other T/T I've heard apart from a well mounted SP10, and even then, based on my experience at the Chesterfest at the weekend with Nick (Lurcher's) SP10 in a Slatedeck plinth, the differences are minimal and probably down to personal preference more than any inherent superiority of either deck...
This was the consensus of opinion of the people present in the room at the time, including Nick. The KAB 1210 certainly raised quite a few eyebrows!
Yep, that's how good it is. But you wouldn't know that because you haven't heard one of those either ;)
I think your comments above are written through 'Rega green' coloured spectacles and are a disservice to the otherwise normally accurate information which one reads from you on PFM. As such I would ask you to link to this discussion on PFM to provide some balance for the membership reading and the OP who is seeking experienced and unbiased advice which I'm sorry I don't think your comments above represent.
For those interested the thread can be read in its entirety here:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52109
I look forward to reading your reply in due course.
Regards,
Marco.
My TT knowledge is extremely limited as I've never really owned one although I have heard a wide variety
Anyway I have heard a Rega P3 which had various mods directly against a modded SL-1210
I've no idea of the cartridges used but the phono stage was a GSP Revelation
To my ears the SL-1210 slaughtered the P3! funny thing is I found the P3 to sound more like a CDP, it was brighter than the SL-1210 , the P3 just didn't sound real to my ears, disdn't give me that impression of being there
Its very rare for me to get into TT debates because as mentioned above I don't know enough about them but just thought I'd stick a quick reply as I have heard both of these TT's in the same system
I've heard plenty of LP12's, not my cup of tea TBH
Peter Stockwell
26-08-2008, 07:08
Marco,
Aren't you in contradiction to your own rules here ?
I fully understand your ire, tho!
cheers
Ian Walker
26-08-2008, 07:28
F.A.O Rob Holt - Techincs comments on PFM
Get back to skoool lad.
StanleyB
26-08-2008, 08:47
P3?:D.
I might be missing something, but why does it matter what folk say in other places?
StanleyB
26-08-2008, 09:19
I might be missing something, but why does it matter what folk say in other places?
Aren't we hear to correct and educate our fellow audiophiles in the 'art of sound':scratch:?
Aren't we hear to correct and educate our fellow audiophiles in the 'art of sound':scratch:?
Why?
I can see the point if you are trying to make a profit (and nothing wrong with that), but it just ends in a flame war, nobody changes their opinions until they actually listen to stuff, and often never then.
Though having said that, it does seem that many have views on stuff they have never heard, but what can you do, folk like to be right, and it never helps telling them they are wrong (IME).
Nick,
Rob's a member here so he has the chance to reply. I'm not a member of PFM, so it was my only way of addressing the issue. Normally I don't bother what people write on other forums but occasionally something is written which I feel strongly about that is completely incorrect - this is one such occasion.
Hey, maybe he was just having a laugh so we should give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not April the 1st, is it? ;)
Peter,
There is no "ire". I was quite simply shocked and stunned when I read what Rob had written about the 1210 (and his comments about the P3 in particular). He's normally a sensible and knowledgeable chap so hence why I was so surprised, particularly when he stated that he's never even heard a 1210.
The rule on AOS is that no disputes from other forums are to be brought here. Me quoting Rob regarding the 1210 doesn't come under that category because it isn't a dispute - it's simply me challenging something he's written about hi-fi which I know to be wrong. It's not just a difference of opinion - it's just plain wrong.
I think it's very important that people asking for information on forums aren't given advice which is one-sided and biased, and indeed incorrect. It's something we put much work into on AOS. This myth that Regas, Linns, etc, are somehow 'better hi-fi decks' than the 1210 is something I thought had been debunked and shown for the nonsense that it is - I want people to continue to wake up and smell the coffee and not be brainwashed or influenced by agendas. This is why for example Ashley and JC of 'AVI fame' were banned.
The *only* reason why people are 'jumping on the 1210 bandwagon' is because when they hear what it does compared to their 'highly regarded' Brit belt-drives they want one!
Marco.
StanleyB
26-08-2008, 10:13
Why?
I can see the point if you are trying to make a profit (and nothing wrong with that), .
I am confused:confused:. I don't sell any turntables, and that includes the 1210, so where does the profit part of your reply comes into it?
I have however listened to the Technics and Rega, and find it hard to believe that any sensible music lover with turntable ears could possibly come to the conclusion that the P3 outshines the 1210. My first course of action if that had been the case on my TT, would be to inspect the cartridge and arm for damage and alignment. Then I would look at the surface upon which the decks have been placed. Next, I would wonder if it is the synergy between my TT and the rest of my equipment downstream. And as an ultimate test, I would swap over arm and cartridge between the two turntables and do the testing again.
Just the mention of the word 'flame' on your part brings into question the negative perception behind your reply. The world is full of happy 1210 and P3 owners, and so is eBay and Craigs List.
I have however listened to the Technics and Rega, and find it hard to believe that any sensible music lover with turntable ears could possibly come to the conclusion that the P3 outshines the 1210.
Indeed; hence the reason for this thread.
The problem is Stan that some people are still brainwashed from the days of the Linn marketing machine where direct-drive turntables were rubbished by the hi-fi press in order to proclaim how wonderful the LP12 was (and to a lesser extent other Brit belt-drives such as Rega, etc). People have been conditioned to believe this as fact and the myth is still perpetuated today.
I get the feeling that some people are unhappy that folk are discovering how good the 1210 is as a hi-fi deck for reasons that I'm not quite sure. Well I can assure everyone that AOS will always tell is as it is and never pander to the commercial interests of the industry!! We are only interested in what equipment is good, particularly when it represents excellent value for money, and reporting accordingly - nothing else.
Don't get me wrong though, many Jap direct-drives were crap, and deserved to be maligned, but the 1200/1210 doesn't come into that category. They were built originally as top-notch audiophile turntables with high quality motor units and that continues today despite DJs having adopted them for club use!
Quite simply if you haven't heard a good one properly set-up, or modified, then you should keep quiet as to what it can or can't do. And if you think that a P3 outperforms a 1210 you either haven't heard a good 1210 or you have some sort of an agenda.
Marco.
I am confused. I don't sell any turntables, and that includes the 1210, so where does the profit part of your reply comes into it?
I never said you did, I was talking generally (its not all about you).
I have however listened to the Technics and Rega, and find it hard to believe that any sensible music lover with turntable ears could possibly come to the conclusion that the P3 outshines the 1210. My first course of action if that had been the case on my TT, would be to inspect the cartridge and arm for damage and alignment. Then I would look at the surface upon which the decks have been placed. Next, I would wonder if it is the synergy between my TT and the rest of my equipment downstream. And as an ultimate test, I would swap over arm and cartridge between the two turntables and do the testing again.
Fine good for you, I never made any comment about what I thought about the relative merits of the two TTs in question. Why did you think I did?
Just the mention of the word 'flame' on your part brings into question the negative perception behind your reply. The world is full of happy 1210 and P3 owners, and so is eBay and Craigs List.
Whatever, I know there are many happy folk out there using lots of stuff, but the reality of the internet is that people will always reply to what they percieve is the motive behind a posting and this is where the flames come from. In fact, just as you seem to have done.
No negative perceptions on my part, my view is that being positive and following the instructions from thumpers mother gets you a lot further, and with a bigger smile on your face. If you happen to sell something then its obvious that the above method needs to be altered a little as its important to prevent the spread of incorrect myths, and infact I only mentioned this in my first post as I know you manufacture, and I was giving a get out clause for folk like yourself in my original "what does it matter" suggestion. But I guess thats what you get for trying to be nice sometimes. I can live with it.
Yep. Stan, I think you misread Nick's comments. This isn't Wigwam, mate - no one's out to get you, so it's time to lower the defence shields ;)
Marco.
Why?
it just ends in a flame war, nobody changes their opinions until they actually listen to stuff, and often never then.
Though having said that, it does seem that many have views on stuff they have never heard, but what can you do, folk like to be right, and it never helps telling them they are wrong (IME).
Spot on!
Funny old hobby isn't it:)
StanleyB
26-08-2008, 11:09
its important to prevent the spread of incorrect myths,
That's the point that I am making as well, and no more so when comparisons are made between a 1210 and a P3.
Now if I could figure out how to transport a 50Kg Alpahson Sonata with HR-100S across a hundred miles of water, I wouldn't be worrying about any other turntable. Anyone got a yacht or speedboat?
Peter Stockwell
26-08-2008, 12:04
There is no "ire". I was quite simply shocked and stunned when I read what Rob had written about the 1210 (and his comments about the P3 in particular). He's normally a sensible and knowledgeable chap so hence why I was so surprised, particularly when he stated that he's never even heard a 1210.
The rule on AOS is that no disputes from other forums are to be brought here. Me quoting Rob regarding the 1210 doesn't come under that category because it isn't a dispute - it's simply me challenging something he's written about hi-fi which I know to be wrong. It's not just a difference of opinion - it's just plain wrong.
Fair does, my misunderstanding of tone. I'm itching to raise the bar on my SL1210.
cheers
Oh you're in for a treat, Peter - of that you can be assured! :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
26-08-2008, 14:46
Mr Holt stirring controversy?
Never heard a 1210 but I have heard the sister models (inc the 1700) back in the day and the idea that these things could be considered alongside a decent LP12 is quite funny.
The best (read very expensive) DDs are great but these middling units were no match for a Planar 3 let alone an LP12.
I can't see that the passing of 20 years would change that.
This 'lets all buy a Technics' thing is a phase (just like the current fad for cheap valve amps) and I predict a short lived one. Folk will hopefully come to their senses in a few years and the Regas, NAs, LP12s will be back on the racks.
So Rob, you've not actually heard an SL1210 in any guise but decided to offer an opinion anyway and a negative one at that. :rolleyes:
As for the 'current fad,' you've only told half the story there. The latest discovery (if you want to call it a fad) is that if you take a Technics SL1210 and a cheap Chinese amp and then get them both extensively modified you will end up with something that, for around £1800 for each all in including parts and labour for the modifications, will see off the conventional off-the-peg commercial offerings costing possibly three or more times the price.
I know you've had your own fingers burnt (literally?) with a certain charred Yaqin 100B sitting in a cupboard under your stairs but that was because you hadn't had the benefit of the now well-documented hindsight. If you are going to buy a cheapo chinese amp off a boat from Hongkong, don't even switch it on until you've taken or sent it to a qualified and competent electrical engineer, preferably one specialising in valves.
I recommend Anthony Matthews of Tube Distinctions who will be able to do the following:
1) Make the amplifier safe for use with UK voltages than can sometimes be over 250 volts.
2) Improve its performance considerably.
The advantage of the cheap Chinese amps is that the amp is cheaper than even the chassis would be if sourced locally.
As for the Technics deck World Audio featured one with a Rega RB250 arm that was allegedly rather good. I've also heard one modified in the USA by KAB. The modifications to this deck included resonance-absorbing mats, rewiring and loading the armtube with silicon, adding an off-board PSU and changing the counterweight.
The result?
Something that gets very close indeed to the performance of a slatedeck SP10 (the very expensive DD deck you may have been refering to.) Unlike your good self, I know because I've heard it quite a few times and over a number of hours. In my view it trounces most LP12 setups and all Regas below a P9. I haven't heard a P9 properly yet but I think a comparison would be interesting to say the least.
When expressing opinions on such things I think it useful to qualify your opinions by either sharing your own experiences in their appropriate context or naming the source if expressing an opinion based on someone else's findings. By so doing you can hopefully (nowithstanding the noises made by the brand-loyal fanboys) avoid a (potential) flame war. This advice can also be found on our forum ethos.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif
Ian Walker
26-08-2008, 16:24
Bel Canto CD2 on 2 sets stacked of Black Ravioli pads.
Mail me your address Steve and i'll send you a tin of the proper stuff :lol::lol::lol:.
Steve Toy
26-08-2008, 16:29
Unfortunately ravioli out of a tin has a high sugar content. Therefore I cannot eat it.
Unfortunately ravioli out of a tin tastes shit. Therefore I can't eat it. :)
As for the Technics deck World Audio featured one with a Rega RB250 arm that was allegedly rather good.
I think you mean Hi-fi World magazine, mate ;)
You're right in what you're saying, though. There are many ways to skin a cat with hi-fi - following the commercial route is one way but it isn't necessarily the most rewarding either sonically or financially...
AOS is an enthusiasts site - we're not here just to promote commercial 'off the shelf' products, but to help people think outside the box with hi-fi where the potential rewards are great, including the D.I.Y route. The KAB modified SL-1210 and either your valve amp or mine are two examples of that methodology.
Reputations and commercial industry interests are of no consideration to us - superb hi-fi and the highest sound-per-pound value is. We will always tell it as we hear it.
Marco.
Unfortunately ravioli out of a tin tastes shit. Therefore I can't eat it. :)
Yep. Pistachio, rum, and almond semi-fredo with Tiramisu goes down somewhat better, eh? ;)
Washed down with some rather fine Recioto della Valpolicella...
Marco.
Astonishing thread.
Marco, your opinion is, like mine entirely subjective and I hope based on you having done as many TT comparisons as I have over the years.
I really don't see what else there is to add as neither of us can prove a subjective statement.
Yep. Pistachio, rum, and almond semi-fredo with Tiramisu goes down somewhat better, eh? ;)
Washed down with some rather fine Recioto della Valpolicella...
Marco.
Oh yes indeedy!!! :)
Can we stop arguing about TT's now please? :eyebrows:
Or, I should say, can we stop arguing about opinions ? ;)
Rob,
Come off it, there's nothing "subjective" about saying a P3 is better than a 1210, it's just ridiculous, and furthermore, it's not the done thing to comment on a turntable you haven't even heard! If you haven't heard a 1210 (particularly a modified one) how do you know what it can do?
As for T/T comparisons, I've been doing them since 1981 :)
No offence, but I think you should provide some balance on PFM to the OP who posed a question hoping for some sensible answers.
Marco.
Steve Toy
26-08-2008, 17:40
Perhaps Rob should hear your KAB SL1210 then any potential arguments will be stopped in their, er, groove.
I'm not planning on getting a TT just yet but if/when I do it'll be a KAB modified SL1210, vibration-cancelling mats and one of Thrunobulax's counterweights (if he'll supply one).
Peter, how does your as yet unmodified SL1210 compare with your venerable Garrard 401 in its Bastin plinth?
Mr Holt stirring controversy?
So Rob, you've not actually heard an SL1210 in any guise but decided to offer an opinion anyway and a negative one at that. :rolleyes:
People appear to have very selective vision today.
I said quite clearly that my view was based on the performance of the 1210s cousins - but you chose to ignore that bit naturally.
For the record I've owned the following DDs:
- Technics SL1700 which shares the metal plinth, platter and and motor with the 1200 series. Little difference in the arm that I can see.
- JVC QL7. A heavy DD deck which sold for about £50 more than an LP12 at the time IIRC.
- Micro Seiki DQQ500 with MA707 arm. Again more expensive than an LP12/Basik of the day and a nicely built deck with external PSU.
- Micro Seiki DDQ1000/SMEV. High end DD with high end arm. Owned until about 18 months ago until it was replaced with a Rega P9.
In terms of sound, the Technics was interior to and got replaced with a Planar 3. The JVC and smaller Micro were decent decks - both improved with a better arm (Mission 774 original) but still well short of Gyro/LP12/Xerxes standards.
Lastly the big Micro. This was a very nice deck and perfectly capable of giving the above mentioned a good run but ultimately a P9 was, as they say 'simply better'.
Now, what will no doubt follow is a series of posts from folk saying that they disagree, and so it goes around.
Steve Toy
26-08-2008, 17:47
Rob,
That's fine as you've now outlined your own experiences. I've also no doubt that the P9 is a belter of a deck (pun intended.)
Good idea, Steve!
As you always say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating...
Rob? :)
The truth of the matter is my modified 1210 went toe-to-toe at the weekend with a very good SP10 and more than held its own, which ably proves its status in respected turntable hierarchy.
Marco.
Rob,
Come off it, there's nothing "subjective" about saying a P3 is better than a 1210, it's just ridiculous, and furthermore, it's not the done thing to comment on a turntable you haven't even heard! If you haven't heard a 1210 (particularly a modified one) how do you know what it can do?
As for T/T comparisons, I've been doing them since 1981 :)
No offence, but I think you should provide some balance on PFM to the OP who posed a question hoping for some sensible answers.
Marco.
Of course it's subjective - plenty of folk have chosen alternatives to a Technics based on their personal preference. You simply take a different view.
I haven't commented directly on the 1210 - see the post above.
However I can't see much to differentiate that model from it better cousins.
Be honest, you've got the arse because you think I've taken a pop a your TT ;)
People appear to have very selective vision today.
I said quite clearly that my view was based on the performance of the 1210s cousins - but you chose to ignore that bit naturally.
Rob, I don't think Steve ignored that bit, just as I didn't. The fact is the 1210 is not the same thing as an SL-1700 - far from it - so you shouldn't have used that experience to offer an opinion on the 1210, which you haven't heard.
It's like someone saying they've heard a P7 so they automatically know what a P9 is like.
Marco.
Hi Rob,
Hmm, surprised you didn't say more, explaining all your DIY experience, tweaking skills not to mention your experience with other DD turntables such as Micro Seiki. Maybe you just didn't feel the need.
On the subjectivity of performance I've learnt that it is not good to state one product sounds better than another. Rather, it might sound different and I can either prefer or not that difference. There is no wrong or right in this and therefore no need to justify an opinion. A persons opinion is their right and should be respected regardless of if you agree or not. I suspect this is what Nick was getting at. I know he may not agree on a point of view but I also know he respects the views of others. Under such circumstances, no arguement should ever need to happen.
Having said that, I have found that certain people I know, mainly having met them through forum based events, seem to share my own taste in what sounds good. I have learnt to trust these people so when they might make recommendation on a piece of kit or a tweak etc, I take notice in the confidence that if I also follow their lead, I am likely to gain personal benefit and a personal sound system improvement that will work for me but might not for others. Nevertheless, this is not infallible but does work as a 'rule of thumb'. Some stuff others I trust do I try but after listening reject because I might not like the difference the change brings.
Everything is down to the ears of the individual and if one such individual prefers the sound of a Rega 3 or LP12 to a Technics 1200 (or similar), so what? If we all heard it the same way there would be no industry and probably no forums like this. It is the very essence of subjectivity which makes this hobby worth pursuing albeit that striving to find the audio holy grail is probably fruitless if not fun on the way.
Best wishes,
Greg
It's like someone saying they've heard a P7 so they automatically know what a P9 is like.
Marco.
..... they sound pretty similar actually!
I'll offer the advice I choose. Most folk know me by know, they can take it or leave it.
Neil McCauley
26-08-2008, 18:03
From my site: http://blog.listencarefully.co.uk/?p=2924
"During the turntable wars of the late 1970s and 1980s, Technics came up with a truly extraordinary deck. It was direct drive and with spring / rubber suspension. As far as I can recall, no other direct drive of that time or any other had for that matter had anything other than cursory and utterly ineffective isolation. Anyway, their one bounced! And it rocked too - in the appropriate meaning of that word.
A very well know reviewer, still writing today and who wishes to remain anonymous told me in the early 1980s of an out-of-hours listening session in the IPC building (Kings Reach Tower) in Southwark where this curious device with some seemingly mediocre arm (an Acos Lustre derivative I guess) was put up against the then current LP12. The outcome shocked those that were there and to cut a long and shameful story short, that Technics deck was buried – editorially."
The magazine was 'Practical HiFi & Audio. Long defunct.
---//---
The outcome shocked those that were there and to cut a long and shameful story short, that Technics deck was buried – editorially.
Ah!..... Not good for something to better the all conquering LP12 :eyebrows:
Hi Rob,
Hmm, surprised you didn't say more, explaining all your DIY experience, tweaking skills not to mention your experience with other DD turntables such as Micro Seiki. Maybe you just didn't feel the need.
On the subjectivity of performance I've learnt that it is not good to state one product sounds better than another. Rather, it might sound different and I can either prefer or not that difference. There is no wrong or right in this and therefore no need to justify an opinion. A persons opinion is their right and should be respected regardless of if you agree or not. I suspect this is what Nick was getting at. I know he may not agree on a point of view but I also know he respects the views of others. Under such circumstances, no arguement should ever need to happen.
Having said that, I have found that certain people I know, mainly having met them through forum based events, seem to share my own taste in what sounds good. I have learnt to trust these people so when they might make recommendation on a piece of kit or a tweak etc, I take notice in the confidence that if I also follow their lead, I am likely to gain personal benefit and a personal sound system improvement that will work for me but might not for others. Nevertheless, this is not infallible but does work as a 'rule of thumb'. Some stuff others I trust do I try but after listening reject because I might not like the difference the change brings.
Everything is down to the ears of the individual and if one such individual prefers the sound of a Rega 3 or LP12 to a Technics 1200 (or similar), so what? If we all heard it the same way there would be no industry and probably no forums like this. It is the very essence of subjectivity which makes this hobby worth pursuing albeit that striving to find the audio holy grail is probably fruitless if not fun on the way.
Best wishes,
Greg
Well said Greg. :clap:
I haven't commented directly on the 1210 - see the post above.
But you did in your post on PFM. Read it again:
Never heard a 1210 but I have heard the sister models (inc the 1700) back in the day and the idea that these things could be considered alongside a decent LP12 is quite funny.
The best (read very expensive) DDs are great but these middling units were no match for a Planar 3 let alone an LP12. I can't see that the passing of 20 years would change that.
It's the bits in bold which are the most ridiculous, and really not very constructive. Quite simply if you had heard a modified 1210 such as mine or Scoobs, or those belonging to other people, you wouldn't have made those comments. The LP12 is a good deck but it in no way outclasses a 1210 in the way you suggest, particularly a modified one. The ridiculousness is further compounded by your decision to cite a P3 as being superior! :lol:
And would an example of "The best (read very expensive) DDs" be SP10s? If so, my modified 1210 fared rather well against one at the weekend...
Be honest, you've got the arse because you think I've taken a pop a your TT
LOL. Not in the slightest. It's more like you're fed up reading how wonderful the 1210 is instead of people waxing lyrical about P9s ;)
I simply think it's important for newbies seeking information to get good unbiased advice. If you had mentioned, say, an SME 20, Michell Orbe or even a Garrard 401, instead of a P3 I wouldn't have batted an eyelid and left you to your own devices!
And what's your beef now with Chinese valve amps?
Marco.
Hi Rob,
Hmm, surprised you didn't say more, explaining all your DIY experience, tweaking skills not to mention your experience with other DD turntables such as Micro Seiki. Maybe you just didn't feel the need.
Hi Greg,
There is a post in response to Steve that gives more detail on the decks.
You are right however in that I don't really feel the need and that's for two reasons. Firstly, I find that there is such disparity between what different people regard as a good sound or performance that I now pay no attention to subjective comments on any forum, except in the case of a handful of posters and those are people I know well. I will try things for myself and form my own opinion.
Secondly, people tend not to like having equipment they own criticised, for obvious reasons.
So I tend not to get bogged down in these discussions lately because folk rarely shift position. Far better IMO to clearly state your opinion and move on, unless the discussion is of a technical nature or exchange of general information. You may be interested to know that I was summoned here via PM over on PFM by the Administrator to come here and explain myself. I guess I should be flattered :)
regards,
Rob.
..... they sound pretty similar actually!
I'll offer the advice I choose. Most folk know me by know, they can take it or leave it.
Fair enough if that's what you think. At least you've heard both decks so are qualified to comment...
I disagree. In my experience, and I've heard both decks at length, the P9 is in a different league from any other Rega T/T. The RB1000 and superior PSU, in my opinion, make all the difference.
Trust me, in much the same way a KAB modifed 1210 sounds *nothing* like an SL-1700. One day you might find this out for yourself ;)
Marco.
From my site: http://blog.listencarefully.co.uk/?p=2924
"During the turntable wars of the late 1970s and 1980s, Technics came up with a truly extraordinary deck. It was direct drive and with spring / rubber suspension. As far as I can recall, no other direct drive of that time or any other had for that matter had anything other than cursory and utterly ineffective isolation. Anyway, their one bounced! And it rocked too - in the appropriate meaning of that word.
A very well know reviewer, still writing today and who wishes to remain anonymous told me in the early 1980s of an out-of-hours listening session in the IPC building (Kings Reach Tower) in Southwark where this curious device with some seemingly mediocre arm (an Acos Lustre derivative I guess) was put up against the then current LP12. The outcome shocked those that were there and to cut a long and shameful story short, that Technics deck was buried – editorially."
The magazine was 'Practical HiFi & Audio. Long defunct.
---//---
Brilliant, Howard.
I get the feeling certain people today still want it buried for the very same reasons!
Well it bloody well won't be as long as AOS exists.
I want more and more people to hear what the 1210 is capable of instead of being brainwashed by the British belt-drive T/T propaganda machine, aided and abetted by certain dealers, the hi-fi press, and it appears, some audio forums ;)
Marco.
Trust me, a KAB modifed 1210 sounds *nothing* like an SL-1700. One day you might get to find this out for yourself ;)
Marco.
No, perhaps it doesn't but then I've never mentioned a KAB, here or on PFM.
You are clearly looking for a little fight so I'll leave you to get on with it.
Please delete of remove my account (I shan't be using it again).
tatty bye.
Oh for goodness sake Rob, stop throwing your toys out the pram. You made a daft comment and I quite rightly pulled you up about it. I'm not looking for a fight - just seeking accuracy and balance. I think that’s perfectly fair.
The reason I mentioned a KAB 1210 is because in my experience it is the ultimate expression of the 1210's capabilities.
Your account will remain as it is for you to use as you wish or not. Let's be adult about this. There is certainly no animosity towards you on my part. Let's draw a line under it now and move on.
Marco.
Neil McCauley
26-08-2008, 19:47
Marco, seems to me son that you've scored an Ippon. Job done!
Meanwhile, in the background here Mr Dylan is murdering 'Highway 61 Revisited' from the 'Before The Flood" CD. But he's redeemed himself by the immortal 'Like a Rolling Stone'. I doubt if even Elvis Bloody Costello could fuck this one up.
---//---
LOL, Howard!
More Technics nonsense from you-know-where:
If you like a big solid bass dose at the expense of mid/treble delicacy & subtlety then technics is your tt.. personally tho, I'd have a linn basik any day!
Hehe... How blissfully unaware of reality are the ignorant! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Neil McCauley
26-08-2008, 20:19
No wonder Technics chucked in the towel!
Feeling better now 'cos Steve 'All or Nuffin' Marriot is giving it some on the office system through explaining why the 'Big Train Stops at Memphis' from the "Final Performances' CD. Captured old leather-lungs in all his glory they have. All that's missing is the broken glass underfoot at the George Robey (Finsbury Park), the brassy birds wot looked like blokes when up close and the "fancy a bit of a ruck John?" atmosphere. Magic really. Just can't get that feeling in today's modern audio showroom.
Must go. He's moved on to "Watcha Gonna Do 'Bout It?" He didn't mean information technology either!
---//---
Iain Sinclair
26-08-2008, 20:35
Everything is down to the ears of the individual and if one such individual prefers the sound of a Rega 3 or LP12 to a Technics 1200 (or similar), so what? If we all heard it the same way there would be no industry and probably no forums like this. It is the very essence of subjectivity which makes this hobby worth pursuing albeit that striving to find the audio holy grail is probably fruitless if not fun on the way.
What he said.
Iain, I know where you're coming from, but if someone stated that a P3 was sonically superior to your Roksan are you saying that you wouldn't think that they were either misinformed or taking the piss?
Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the fact is some opinions are worth more than others, particularly when opinions expressed aren't based on practical experience, in this instance that of using a 1210 modified or otherwise.
Marco.
Iain Sinclair
26-08-2008, 20:54
Iain, I know where you're coming from, but if someone stated that a P3 was sonically superior to your Roksan are you saying that you wouldn't think that they were either misinformed or taking the piss?
Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the fact is some opinions are worth more than others, particularly when opinions expressed aren't based on practical experience, in this instance that of using a 1210 modified or otherwise.
Marco.
I would think they were mistaken, but I wouldn't expect to be able to persuade them to change their opinion. It would of course make a difference if they were speaking from experience of hearing both, as opposed to simply repeating someone else's opinions.
In the same way, if someone said that Jeffrey Archer was a better writer than James Joyce, I'd have a good laugh at their expense, but would recognise that Joyce's superiority as a writer is not capable of objective proof.
I agree, and similarly I think Rob is mistaken. But I'm not out to "prove" anything - merely to provide some balance, based on extensive experience of the T/Ts in question, which I believe I have achieved.
Marco.
Iain Sinclair
26-08-2008, 21:04
As I read the PFM thread (and bearing in mind that what was being discussed was a 'stock' Technics deck and not a souped-up version) opinion seemed fairly evenly balanced between those who liked the Technics and those who thought it sucked compared to a similarly-priced Rega.
Yep, but the fact is unless you truly know what a 1210 is capable of (and that's only through hearing what a modified/ "souped-up" one sounds like) you have no real benchmark from which to accurately judge it against other T/Ts, therefore comments such as I have highlighted about the 1210 are based on ignorance.
The KAB mods simply make the most of the raw ingredients. There is no radical modifying or replacing of the deck's core components, as Kevin (from KAB) when designing the modifications was determined to keep the deck visually as 'stock' as possible.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Oh for goodness sake Rob, stop throwing your toys out the pram. You made a daft comment and I quite rightly pulled you up about it. I'm not looking for a fight - just seeking accuracy and balance. I think that’s perfectly fair.Marco.
Well actually it's not fair because you Marco chose to expose on AOS something posted on another forum. Rob is a moderator for PFM and he posted on that forum according to his belief/knowledge. Without his authority, you pasted his PFM comments here. I suggest your action is an infringement on Rob's right to freedom of expression. If you don't like what Rob posted on PFM then obviously apply your opinion and challenge there. Moving it across here is bad karma and understandably Rob has chosen to move on. In the circumstances I'd do exactly the same.
Following the PFM thread beyond the point of your protest, clearly there are others that don't sign up to your 1210 ethos. As said previously, it's all subjective and what is good for you may be bad for another. Just settle with the fact that what you have satisfies you. Others may differ and that may also be good for them. It's an idividual thing and if you've got it right at home, well done. Likewise it's highly probable that others have it right at home using a different approach.
Best wishes,
Greg
Greg, I appreciate your comments but as I'm not a member of PFM I have no right of reply there.
It's quite normal to post references about hi-fi (not personal arguments) between forums as long as it is done for constructive reasons and indeed this has been carried out many times in the past, providing the person being quoted is a member of this forum and has the right of reply, which is the case with my doing so on this occasion :)
The rest has already been dealt with and deserves no further comment.
Marco.
Most folk know me by know, they can take it or leave it.
My experience suggests the latter option is the wisest choice.
Oi, you bad boy! ;)
Nice to see you popping in again.
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
27-08-2008, 06:50
Peter, how does your as yet unmodified SL1210 compare with your venerable Garrard 401 in its Bastin plinth?
Steve,
The 401 is in the cellar, does that answer your question ?
cheers;)
Just to add that I've checked and found out that the SL-1700 has the same motor unit and arm as the SL-1210, but crucially, it has fully automatic operation!
I wasn't exactly sure what the differences were. See here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-1700.shtml
"Once the tonearm is manually positioned over the lead in grooves, the automatic mechanism will lower the tonearm onto the record when the lever is flicked, and automatically return it to the arm rest at the completion of play. The unit is then automatically shut off."
No wonder it sounded crap, Rob, it's a glorified 'Dansette'!! :lol:
Marco.
I find it ironic when there is any heat at all generated by disagreements surrounding something as subjective as hifi; the depth of the irony is palpable though, in that the heat of disagreement is often almost religious in scope and irrationality. We're talking, after all, about a world in which some of the most dedicated and invested participants believe in the superiority of that which measures as inferior, who, when faced with science that contradicts their beliefs, simply conclude that science is insufficient and describe what they hear in the most imprecise, poetic and essentially meaningless possible terminology (seriously, "musical" means anything...or nothing). And none of this is meant as a criticism. as I often agree with them, as I prefer smooth warmth to etched clarity myself. But really, it should be sufficient to simply state that one doesn't hear it the same, that preferences vary.
Then, though, I guess we wouldn't have much to talk about.
Tim
I agree very much with what you're saying, Tim. I think though with regard to the Rega P3 vs. SL-1210 thing it's simply a case that Rob hasn't heard a 1210, especially a heavily modified one like my own deck. He's heard an SL-1700 which is (as shown) a very different thing. Quite simply therefore, as far as the 1210 is concerned, his 'opinion' is based on nothing.
I'd bet you though that if I sat him down with a P3 and the 1210 in my system and played him some music on both he would very quickly revise his, erm, 'opinion'! ;)
Incidentally, that offer is open to him anytime he wishes to accept it.
Marco.
I agree very much with what you're saying, Tim. I think though with regard to the Rega P3 vs. SL-1210 thing it's simply a case that Rob hasn't heard a 1210, especially a heavily modified one like my own deck. He's heard an SL-1700 which is (as shown) a very different thing. Quite simply therefore, as far as the 1210 is concerned, his 'opinion' is based on nothing.
I'd bet you though that if I sat him down with a P3 and the 1210 in my system and played him some music on both he would very quickly revise his, erm, 'opinion'! ;)
Incidentally, that offer is open to him anytime he wishes to accept it.
Marco.
I hear you, Marco. I guess I've just reached the point where I find greater peace in letting things be than in being right. Of course I may say that and even live it most days, but then someone will come along and say something that rattles my own belief system just a bit too much and I'll go off and make a liar out of myself. You are hereby granted permission to tweak me the next time I do...you won't have to wait all that long. :)
God knows I have my opinions, though I've mellowed. A few years ago I would have been a round-earth pragmatist seeking measurable accuracy and firmly believing it was the only legitimate thing to seek. I still go there sometimes on some issues (jitter comes to mind).
The thing is, I find that I like color...
Tim
LOL. I do like your style of posting! :)
I hear you, Marco. I guess I've just reached the point where I find greater peace in letting things be than in being right.
It's not a question of being right, Tim - it's a question of providing factual accuracy as far as possible, particularly where people are asking for specific information about equipment with a view to making a purchase (as was the case with the OP of the thread on PFM). This is something we work very hard at on AOS. There is too much waffle written elsewhere that goes unchallenged. Normally I ignore it, but this one was too close to my heart.
Marco.
LOL. I do like your style of posting! :)
It's not a question of being right, Tim - it's a question of providing factual accuracy as far as possible, particularly where people are asking for specific information about equipment with a view to making a purchase (as was the case with the OP on the thread on PFM). This is something we work very hard at on AOS. There is too much waffle written elsewhere that goes unchallenged. Normally I ignore it, but this one was too close to my heart.
Marco.
Nah, we're not about factual accuracy here. If we were you would have been quoting the guy wow and flutter stats.
Maybe you did.
Let me revise the above statement: I'm not about factual accuracy here. I have two amps in the house. One is digital. One is a 30-year-old dual mono mosfet SS integrated amp. Factually speaking, there is no question that the digital is the better amp. All of the numbers say so. But I'd rather listen to that old girl sing...
Tim
Hehe... Very good, Tim! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco
I am sufficiently interested in the SL-1200 to make an inquiry of KAB. May I ask if you bought it direct from the USA or is there a UK importer? Which modifications do you have? I would have thought the tonearm rewire is a must.
Hi Martin,
I bought mine (an SL-1210 MK5G) direct from KAB in the USA (there is no UK importer):
http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm
Click on 'Special Edition Technics' (Tables).
Basically, I've had everything done apart from the 78 R.P.M mod, which I didn't feel was necessary, so that includes having the arm rewired with Cardas cable together with fluid damping added, separate PSU (220V version), strobe disabler and record clamp.
I have also added an SDS Isoplatmat and Funk Firm Achromat to replace the existing rubber mat, a custom-made brass counterweight (from Thrunobulaxx here on the forum) and an Audio Technica LH-18 headshell fitted with high quality Cardas cartridge leads, and finally some Isonoe isolation feet to replace the original ones.
You will find lots of information here on these threads:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=201
The LH-18 headshell makes a big improvement here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=550
Info on SDS Isoplatmat:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0706/sds_isoplatmat.htm
Doing all this will result in you having a very special turntable!
If there's any other information you need to know just ask :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. I'm very interested in the possibility of replacing my venerable Strathclyde, which sounds good for its age but doesn't cut the audio mustard when compared with my Ayre SACD player.
Questions: are you using two different mats, one on top of the other? Is the 1210 supplied with the KAB modifications already fitted? What benefit does the brass counterweight confer? Wouldn't disconnecting the strobe light have the same effect as buying the strobe disabler?
My system rack is a Solid Tech with the sprung isolator feet. I would therefore try the 1210 without the Isonoe feet to see how it performs. Any idea of whether my Grado Prestige Gold would be a good match? I rather like its presentation and it works well into my Graham Slee 2SE phono amp.
Peter Stockwell
28-08-2008, 08:44
Any idea of whether my Grado Prestige Gold would be a good match? I rather like its presentation and it works well into my Graham Slee 2SE phono amp.
The prestige Gold is a venerable cartridge, I have used one for 10 yrs. i'm not using it on my standard SL1210. I used an even older Grado to start with and it was just fine.
I have the SDS plattermat and a foam mat over it, I have the brass counterweight. I don't know why, but the solid attachement of the brass c/w makes for a clearer more precise sound.
I have the KAB PS1200 psu in house and I'll be installing it soon, there's a minor piece of DIY soldering to do, for me.
If you want no fuss fit and forget buy the KAB spec'd model you fancy. I didn't because I was sceptical that the Technics would match my quality demands. Even in stock form it does essential stuff like turning at a constant speed better than any TT I've ever owned. When listening this manifests as perfect organisation and "intuneness", so that, for example, harmonies are laid out like no other table I've ever heard.
cheers
Steve Toy
28-08-2008, 11:42
It is easy to throw your arms up in there air/shrug your shoulders and say that it is all subjective but IME when a number of people are in a room witnessing given changes effected to a system they tend to hear the same thing. What varies is the way in which they jump in terms of their preferences in the face of obvious compromise (e.g: one sounds more communicative but slightly harsh, the other easier on the ear) or there is an issue of tonal balance for which preferences are likely to be subjective.
I don't think I've ever known a dispute between folks in-room about which league or ballpark a given component is compared to another. The problem with forums is that we are all coming from different points of departure with different experiences in different contexts (with particular agendas in some cases) and are therefore not hearing the same thing - hence the arguments.
Where Rob Holt came unstuck was in dismissing something based on little or no experience; the SL1700 he had heard, as it would seem, was fully automatic and as such was not even designed with any sonic/musical performance considerations at all. In virtually the same breath he was equally disparaging towards cheap Chinese valve amps. What these two share in common is that they are inexpensive to buy as standard items but are ripe for modification (essential from a safety POV in the case of many of the Chinese valve amps as Robert himself knows from his own bitter experience).
When the mods are done, either on a DIY basis or by trained professionals who specialise in undertaking such work, you end up with something astonishingly good for relatively little expenditure. For some people, even those with a wealth of experence in all things hi-fi, this is perhaps just one step too far outside of their comfort zones, especially when stepping out has already involved burnt fingers.
When Peter decided to take the plunge and get himself an SL1210 this piqued my interest because I've heard his system (albeit a good few years ago) and I know him to be a very discerning individual whose opinions and findings can be trusted. Robert's credibility, OTOH, has just taken a slight scratch (IMHO).
Instead of running off leaving his teddy behind he could just hold his hands up and say "fair enough!" or elaborate a bit more if he has more as yet undisclosed experience to support his findings. Nobody is going to think he was silly for doing either of these.
Peter Stockwell
28-08-2008, 12:03
When Peter decided to take the plunge and get himself an SL1210 this piqued my interest because I've heard his system (albeit a good few years ago) and I know him to be a very discerning individual
Thanks for that Steve, every dog likes a good scratch behind the ears :lol:, The system has moved on and is clearer than it was when you heard it back in 2002. I'm inclined to think that your wider experience and searching has put your yardsticks beyond mine, though.
However, I've learned a few things this year, notably that hifi improvements do not necessarelly lead to better musical understanding and communication. Case in point, going from CDX2/XPS2/282/Hi/200 in a Naim system to CDS3/555PS/282/Sc/200. There latter is clearly better in hifi terms, but I found added next to nothing musically. The SL1210 is a clear advance, and in stock form!
This thread fascinates me, but also saddens me, I fear there's been a huge communication cock up. Rob referes to "back in the day" in his post. I suspect that the SL1700 is very close to a SL1200. Back in the day, people tuned there systems around the LP12 which, even back in the 80s, for some listeners was a longway from neutral.
Ok, fess up time, I longed for an LP12 in the mid 80s. I believed it to be the nec plus ultra. Then I started reading the Absolute Sound. They considered it adequate, nothing more. They reported a midbass emphasis. I'm sure it's why early LP12/Kan baseds sytems sounded so enticing.
Another interesting trend is to look at where many LP12 fans have gone with there TTs. They've gone either to idlers or Direct Drive. I think CD has done a lot to improve vinyl (ducks) ;)
cheers
Steve Toy
28-08-2008, 12:39
I must point out that I do not currently own a turntable. My last deck was a belt drive... a Rega P25.
I fear there's been a huge communication cock up.
Sadly, I think you are correct. Hopefully by rattling Rob's cage one more time he may come back so we can put it right.
StanleyB
28-08-2008, 13:20
When I read LP12, I bemoan the demise of the STD305. Far better sounding than the LP12, and the one with the fluorescent display was kind of attractive just to look at.
I have an STD-305M with Michell TecnoArm(A). The sound is not bad, and far more neutral than the LP12. However, it does lack detail and I'm getting restless for an upgrade. I could sell it back on eBay for what I paid, easily.
http://www.mtc.nildram.co.uk/images/strathclyde.jpg
"fully automatic and as such was not even designed with any sonic/musical performance considerations at all."
Steve,
not sure why you came to this conclusion.I don't think Technics would agree.
StanleyB
28-08-2008, 17:36
I have an STD-305M with Michell TecnoArm(A). The sound is not bad, and far more neutral than the LP12. However, it does lack detail and I'm getting restless for an upgrade. I could sell it back on eBay for what I paid, easily.
http://www.mtc.nildram.co.uk/images/strathclyde.jpg
Lucky you. And they do fly off the shelf when one shows up on fleebay.
The lack of detail might not be the deck. Have you considered that arm weight mod of John (Thru)? Also test out your phono stage with a different deck just to confirm it's not that.
Looking at turntables again after all these years reminds me of a story. I was a copywriter at an ad agency here in the 80s. This was before the days of extreme political sensitivity, and when there were still dedicated word processing systems that saved to 8-inch floppy discs. Our rather attractive secretary was loading one of those discs as I walked by one day. "My what big floppy discs you have," I remarked.
The brand of that word processor, by the way, was Wang. No, I didn't go there.
Tim
I've got to dive in here as I SOLD THE BLOODY SL1700 WHEN IT WAS CURRENT!!!!
The SL1700 has a number of similarities with the current SL1200 series and a number of differences too! Firstly, it was auto return, the arm, which is more alike to the SL1210 than different being pretty well disconnected completely from the auto mech until side end. The main difference was in the sprung sub-chassis and the non quartz locked drive.
How does the SL1700 sound to me? Bloody good actually (I heard one not too long ago) and it LOVED the Dynavector 10X series. Like the *standard* current model, the emphasis is on a weightly, beefy reproduction with great drive, conviction and "swing." Dansette it CERTAINLY isn't!
Now the Planar 3. Firstly, it depends what you put the thing on. The lightweight plinth (and usually the loose main bearing and arm nuts - unless you have a good dealer) have a significant influence on the sound. Properly tightened and mounted on their wall bracket, the sound is very good - light, quick and *fast* - usually 'cos most of them run a bit measurably fast.
Until recently, the SL1200/1210 series 2 onwards were the province of DJ's. Even KK giving the gold one a brilliant review didn't really do much. What dealer in his right mind would want to sell a low profit (25% if you're lucky) turntable when competing products with better reputation in the target market can get you at least 10% more profit in the bank...
Marco, enjoy your KAB deck (you do, I know). Rob has arguably the more "truthful to source" turntable (in my opinion) and so it should be at several times the cost, but bearing in mind other heated threads elsewhere, we all now know that musical enjoyment and highest quality don't always mean the same thing (the early LP12 was extremely good at making bad '70's pressings sound "better" than they really were for instance).
Hi Dave,
Marco, enjoy your KAB deck (you do, I know). Rob has arguably the more "truthful to source" turntable (in my opinion) and so it should be at several times the cost...
I presume that you're referring to his P9, not the P3?
I rate the P9 highly (I've heard one at length and compared it to both the P5 and P7) and like what it does. I could easily understand someone preferring a P9 to an SL1210, even a modified one, but definitely NOT a P3 unless you were A) deaf or B) the SL-1210 was f*cked!
Incidentally, Dave, have you ever heard a fully KAB modified SL-1210 or is it just the standard deck you've heard? There really is a huge difference, and much as I like the P9 there’s no way I’d swap it for my modified 1210.
Martin,
I'll come back to you tomorrow regarding the questions you asked - just in after a busy day so hitting the sack now.
Laters,
Marco.
Marco, I sadly haven't heard the fully KAB one, such is my "exiled" position from the industry these days. I do get to listen to NAS turntables regularly though (I'm an ex-Mentor owner) and enjoy them very much.
I was wondering what I'd have to get when my Dual 701 gives in and the Technics was the obvious one, as even a Spacedeck would be too expensive at trade price (used ones rarely come up for sale). However, for right or wrong I'm about to be given for nowt a TD160 Super/SME. Now, the SME could be replaced with an up to date arm and a Rega or sibling on a fancy ally plate would be ideal I understand, or possibly a Basik Plus if I can find a good one (I can't and won't just put the Thorens on ebay out of respect to the giver)...
Hey, I've just noticed you use ML Ultra IC's. I was offerent an Ultra Balanced one for £200 but didn't have my cheque book to hand. I was made redundant before I could return there to collect it and feel sick about it now..... A close mate who works at an Absolute Sounds (mainly) salon was raving to me recently about their mains leads, especially the "cheaper" one at "only £760!" I pulled him back to earth describing my home made one with 16A cable and soldered IEC and MK plugs. Cost, all of £6!!! - Sounds good too.
Hi Dave,
Transparent cables are the best I've heard, certainly in the context of my system, at any kind of 'affordable' price. I use the mains leads you're referring to throughout my system and they are very effective indeed, as are their interconnects and speaker cable. I listened to many different types before settling on the Transparents.
The TD160 should be a good deck, but these days I can't really listen to belt-drives as their speed stability issues are all too apparent once your ears become attuned to the accuracy of a good direct-drive motor like the Technics - there's just a bloom (a sort of 'thickness') and artificiality to the sound which makes me lose interest in the music pretty quickly despite any good points which the deck otherwise might have. Some LP12s can be enjoyable to listen to though despite being somewhat coloured.
The only belt-drives (or string-drives) I really rate are high-mass ones like the Dr Feickerts, Brinkmann La Grange, or the superb Platine Verdier; these give the weight and authority of quality direct-drive T/Ts and are also accurate in terms of speed stability, but all this comes at significant financial cost and the owning of a huge rather cumbersome (but quite often beautiful) turntable. I find the relative neatness of my KAB SL-1210 to be much more practical.
Going back to the SL-1700, my comment about the 'Dansette' was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but the bottom line is that all the extra moving parts required to facilitate the deck's fully automatic operation are detrimental to performance, and thus it will never sound as good as a fully manual 1210. If this weren't so all hi-end T/Ts would be fully automatic and we'd all be enjoying the extra convenience! I'm sure it sounds decent enough though, the quality of the motor unit and the deck's overall engineering quality will see to that.
Marco.
Thanks Marco. I'm very interested in the possibility of replacing my venerable Strathclyde, which sounds good for its age but doesn't cut the audio mustard when compared with my Ayre SACD player.
Questions: are you using two different mats, one on top of the other? Is the 1210 supplied with the KAB modifications already fitted? What benefit does the brass counterweight confer? Wouldn't disconnecting the strobe light have the same effect as buying the strobe disabler?
My system rack is a Solid Tech with the sprung isolator feet. I would therefore try the 1210 without the Isonoe feet to see how it performs. Any idea of whether my Grado Prestige Gold would be a good match? I rather like its presentation and it works well into my Graham Slee 2SE phono amp.
Hi Martin,
To answer your questions:
Yes, mat-wise, I'm using both the Isoplatmat and Achromat. The former totally removes the (quite prominent) ringing from the platter making it dead and gives the deck a more open, detailed, sound, and the latter interfaces best with the record, removing the 'muddiness' that can occur with rubber mats.
However recent experiments have shown that the effect of the Achromat is system dependent. It gives a clearer more dynamic sound but sometimes also by adding a hard edge which can tip the presentation into being a touch bright and forward. However Achromats are available on a 30-day money back guarantee so one can experiment and see whether results are better or not than with the stock thick rubber mat. The Isoplatmat though is a no-brainer.
Yes, the 1210 if ordered from KAB can be supplied with all the mods fitted. This is what I done as I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to D.I.Y! :eyebrows:
Go for the MK5G version as it looks nicer and also has a higher quality armtube on the tonearm than the less expensive decks.
The brass counterweight balance adds some useful mass when using MC cartridges, and this gives a more detailed, weightier, sound than with the stock counterweight balance, which is absolutely fine if using an MM cartridge. I believe though that Peter's reported benefits even with his Grado.
I don't believe you can simply 'disconnect' the strobe light - it is part of the internal circuit and requires an additional board to disable it. I've never been able to assess the sonic benefits (if any) of this particular modification as it was already done when I got the deck. However if nothing else it removes the rather garish red light which illuminates every time the deck is switched on, therefore aesthetically IMO it is worth doing.
I wouldn't dismiss the Isonoes simply because of your Solid Tech. I use them even though the deck sits on 18 levels of stainless steel Mana! Elimination of vibration/resonance is always best tackled as near to the source component as possible, therefore you will probably find the combined effect of the Isonoes and your Solid Tech to be more beneficial than one without the other. Plus the Isonoes look rather sexy!
Grado's are good cartridges, if a little laid back sounding for my own tastes, so by all means use your Prestige Gold. However, once KAB modified, the 1210 really sings with a good moving coil. If you like MMs, check out the new range by Nagaoka (available from Musonic Styli) - they are really good.
Marco.
Meanwhile, for your perusal, here's an interesting link explaining the benefits of direct-drive:
http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/why_eng.html
Marco.
Why don't Technics consider doing a strobe-light switch (a little stud on top of the strobe block) as my SL110 had (a beautiful looking deck which unfortunately played tunes through the speakers if you gently tapped the plinth whilst playing a record).
Do you have a contact at Panasonic I could ask, Dave? ;)
Marco.
Hi Martin,
Go for the MK5G version as it looks nicer and also has a higher quality armtube on the tonearm than the less expensive decks.
Marco.
Just a quick note on this, If you buy a ready modified deck from KAB, you can choose your components, In my case I have a MK5 (wish I had gone for a 2) but I have the improved MK5G titanium plated arm tube fitted because I asked for it.
Peter Stockwell
31-08-2008, 16:10
I think that getting KAB to do the work is a good idea too, If I'd suspected the majesty that lurks in a Technics SL1200, it's what I would have done.
Words, alone, cannot begin to cover how good these tables are. The PS1200 alone renders what is alerady an unbeatable value table something of superb value for money.
The PS1200 gives more extended bass, i.e. acoustic space is more palpable. It really shows how singers will play with the beat, before behind, etc, in their phrasing. I've only had my PS1200 hooked up for a few hours. I don't know how it deos this, but singers are human sized whilst the space that the perform in can appear cavernous. It's much easier to guess the age of a singer, too.
cheers
Peter
Yes but is it better than a P3? Are you sure??? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
31-08-2008, 16:32
Yes but is it better than a P3? Are you sure??? :eyebrows:
Marco.
As a lazy susan ?
Dunno, don't eat much cake :lolsign:
Having read through this lot, I must be the only bloke on the site who actually prefers the Rega deck sound to the Technics. Yes I have compared them side by side, In standard trim, and bought the rega at the time. I have since compared other DD decks of one form or another, and still have a rega, a modified ( a little) P25, and still prefer the Rega sound to DD decks. Not because the Hi-Fi mafia told me I should, but because my ears told me I should. The 1210 and the Rega's have different strength's and weaknesses, you just take your choice. I find it bloody incredible that people have to be so up tight about a personal choice made when putting together a music replay system.
The mods on my own deck have to my taste corrected the weakness in the lower order Rega decks. They are simple to do, replacing the glass platter with a acrylic unit, replacing the bloody awful plastic subplatter with a decent lump of machined stainless, and the counter weight with a techno job. The Rega still does not have the bottom end authority of the 1210, but the 1210 to my ears does not have the ease of flow through the midband that the Rega does.
Its the same as everything else in system building, its the owners choice.
Colin, have you heard a KAB-modified 1210?
The reason I ask is because if your only experience of the 1210 is in stock form then you have no real benchmark from which to judge the 1210 against anything else, Rega or otherwise, as KAB modified the 1210 is a very different beast altogether. It simply allows one to hear what the deck is actually capable of. I would say from experience that a stock 1210 delivers only about 60% of the deck's inherent sonic capabilities.
Perhaps if you heard the extra 40% it would sway your opinion?
You may wish to bear this in mind :)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
01-09-2008, 11:07
The Rega still does not have the bottom end authority of the 1210, but the 1210 to my ears does not have the ease of flow through the midband that the Rega does.
Ease of flow ? Yes I suppose that we all listen differently and latch on to other aspects more than others. I never heard a P25, and as far as I understand comments about the subplatter the stanless steel job raises the bar considerably.
The PS1200 on a technics doesn't takea away any bass authority, it just lays out the music more explicitly, matter of factly. Yesterday, I was impressed with how the technics would start and stop on a dime. I'm not talking of the platter coming up to speed, but the way a song will pass to the bridge or how tempo changes are presented.
The basic characteristics of the SL1210 are maintained, but that speed stability brings benefits that once appreciated I don't want to give up. I have a friend who has a Platine Verdier, I'd love to put my teccie up against that. Alas, he's 8000 miles away:scratch:
cheers
Colin, have you heard a KAB-modified 1210?
Marco.
No, just the standard model, and as it is not available in the UK, I have no real interest in hearing one. I do not have any real interest in buying something that would have to be shipped back to the states to have any problems resolved.
Ease of flow ? Yes I suppose that we all listen differently and latch on to other aspects more than others. I never heard a P25, and as far as I understand comments about the subplatter the stanless steel job raises the bar considerably.
The PS1200 on a technics doesn't takea away any bass authority, it just lays out the music more explicitly, matter of factly. Yesterday, I was impressed with how the technics would start and stop on a dime. I'm not talking of the platter coming up to speed, but the way a song will pass to the bridge or how tempo changes are presented.
The basic characteristics of the SL1210 are maintained, but that speed stability brings benefits that once appreciated I don't want to give up. I have a friend who has a Platine Verdier, I'd love to put my teccie up against that. Alas, he's 8000 miles away:scratch:
I have a project speed Box II SE power supply feeding the P25, and it does give the Rega 25 a Tad more bottom end control, and the music starts and stops with more speed and precision. The up to speed thing is irrelevant in use as I leave the deck spinning through a session.
cheers
I have a project speed Box II SE power supply feeding the P25, and it does give the Rega 25 a Tad more bottom end control, and the music starts and stops with more speed and precision. The up to speed thing is irrelevant in use as I leave the deck spinning through a session.
No, just the standard model, and as it is not available in the UK, I have no real interest in hearing one.
That's fine, so you're in no position then to accurately judge what a 1210 is truly capable of against a Rega or anything else. I'm glad we've cleared that up :)
At least you've heard a stock 1210 fairly recently, though. Rob was basing his opinion on an SL-1700 he'd heard goodness knows how many years ago!
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
01-09-2008, 11:27
The up to speed thing is irrelevant in use as I leave the deck spinning through a session.
Yes, I used to use my P3 "on" all the time, but I wasn't referring to that. The KAB SL1210 is essentially the same as standard SL1210. Any Technics repairshop would be able to service one if there was something to go amiss. The PS1200 just bypasses the original technics transformer, for example. The fluid damper is fit and forget.
The arm rewire, anybody could do, audioorigami for example.
cheers
Yep, that's precisely why Kevin wanted to keep the deck as 'stock' as possible :smoking:
Marco.
I find it bloody incredible that people have to be so up tight about a personal choice made when putting together a music replay system.
Colin, you obviously haven't read the thread properly. It's not about being "up tight"; it's about making realistic and accurate comparisons. No-one here is up tight - I'm certainly not.
The point is Rob has not heard a 1210 in stock or modified form, so quite simply he's in no position to make comparisons with it against a P3 or anything else. I really didn't want to go on about this again but you brought up the subject.
You're entitled to your opinion based on experience of a stock 1210 and I have no problem with that, and you obviously enjoy your P25 which is good, but I would hope you’re sensible enough to realise that you have no true understanding of a 1210's real capabilities and therefore would bear this in mind in future when forming your opinions.
Regards,
Marco.
I'll chuck the same back at you, have you heard a modified P3 or P5.
I would not, and did not have a problem with Robs comments, as they are broadly in line with my own based on hearing a ''stock'' 1210.
The minute you move away from stock, the question about who has heard and compared what with what is generally pointless. If you can not buy it (whatever it is) let alone compare it without borrowing one to cart it off to compare with another then the entire exercise becomes a task far removed from what many want from Hi Fi replay equipment. It's the music that interests me far more than the kit.
Colin,
I've heard and indeed owned a modified P5, and owned a stock P2 and P3. I've also compared the P7 and P9 at length - I know Regas all too well.
With my P5, as well as having the T/T PSU I also got J7 to strip and polish the RB700 to the same finish as the RB1000 and had it rewired with Cardas cable. I also had a custom-made brass counterweight added, made by J7, and used the deck with an Achroplat (which is the full Funk platter not just the mat).
I enjoyed this deck very much but sold it to buy my KAB 1210, which is in a completely different league to the heavily modified P5, never mind a P3. I'm quite sure if you heard it yourself you would agree. Fancy making a trip to North Wales? Bring your P25. I guarantee it'll be an education ;)
The minute you move away from stock, the question about who has heard and compared what with what is generally pointless. If you can not buy it (whatever it is) let alone compare it without borrowing one to cart it off to compare with another then the entire exercise becomes a task far removed from what many want from Hi Fi replay equipment.
True, but none of that detracts from the fact that a stock 1210 sounds nothing like a KAB modified one and that one deck is beyond question superior to the other. The only way you'll know though is to listen to both otherwise your true opinions of a 1210 are based on nothing but blissful ignorance. It’s like saying you know what real spaghetti bolognaise tastes like because you've had what’s inside a Heinz tin.
It's the music that interests me far more than the kit.
Indeed; and that's the reason why I invested in a modified 1210, not as an ornament. It gets played on average for 4-5 hours a day. Fortunately as I run a business from home I can listen to music as I work :)
Marco.
It's interesting to see that of all the mods you had done to the Rega you do not appear to have looked into the one thing that to me needs sorting on anything below the 7, that being the sub platter.
I also run a business from home, and listen to music most of the day, but mostly its computer based stuff. Nothing stunning, just use slimserver and softsqueeze out through an old Sansui and some AE bookshelf speakers. It is mainly background music and suits my needs.
Hi Colin,
The simple answer is I had no idea about an issue with the sub-platter when I owned a P5 otherwise I would have attended to it.
Nothing wrong with listening to streamed music while you're working - it's a damn sight more convenient than changing over records! :)
Maybe someday you'll get an opportunity to hear a KAB 1210; it may be sooner than you think as we're considering hiring a room at the Manchester show in January next year and putting an AOS system in it. My KAB 1210 will be a part of it. Perhaps you could pop along for a listen?
Marco.
we're considering hiring a room at the Manchester show in January next year and putting an AOS system in it.
Eh?.... You what?
For the purpose of? :scratch:
Showing off members D.I.Y projects (your phono stage could be a part of it) and demonstrating to people how good a system can be when you move away from 'stock' mainstream commercial products and go the modification or D.I.Y route, particularly showing what can be done with "cheap Chinese valve amps" and 'obsolete CD players/DACs' ;)
Basically, thinking 'outside of the box'.
Promoting attention to detail in terms of system set-up (stands, cables, etc) would also be part of it, plus playing some decent music!
Also advertising the forum in general.
Marco.
Oh that'll be bloody popular with the other exhibitors. Brilliant!
:D
Too bad :eyebrows:
AOS is not about following the norm or worrying about industry concerns. I want to spread the word about our ethos/system building methodology, and hopefully get the magazines interested. It's time to take things to the next level!
Marco.
Primalsea
01-09-2008, 19:18
I've always thought that this would be a good idea if only someone would assume the mantle.
I understand that the cost to exhibit is a few thousand quid, is that true?
It would be nice to see a system that was set up properly.
Steve Toy
01-09-2008, 19:24
We support the industry where it has something to offer (and it does at least sometimes) in this regard.
Any system (or systems) we may put together at a show would hopefully work in conjunction with the industry (especially some of those who contribute here) for certain components and anciliaries including CD transports, DACs, computer audio, supports/cabling and certainly loudspeakers. I think a pair of Hecos at the back end of the system, for example, could be a real show-shocker....
I think we need to offer something viable to potential customers who can't actually do DIY (like both Marco and myself). Products available commercially like amplifiers and CD players/transports/DACS that are subsequently modded by professionals are accessible to more mainstream punters and are likely to be embraced by them when they hear the results.
We can put up price lists of the stock components and from whom they can be sourced as well as outlining typical costs of mods and we can advertise the services of those who can undertake them.
Hi Paul,
Yep, you're about right on the costs. I'm hoping to do some entrepreneurial manoeuvring in that direction ;)
I think it could be entertaining and fun. The hi-fi world doesn't revolve around buying the 'latest and greatest' shiny new box from the likes of Linn, Naim, Rega, etc, although I have nothing against those companies. There is a whole big world of audio out there if people are willing to take off the blinkers.
A decent computer audio set-up would also be good on top of what I mentioned earlier.
Marco.
I'm still not sure I understand. What is the nature/purpose of this Manchester show?
Tim
We support the industry where it has something to offer (and it does at least sometimes) in this regard.
Absolutely, Steve. I'm not anti-industry - far from it. Commercial hi-fi has its place, and there are many excellent products from that area of the market. But I think it's also important that people's eyes (and ears) are opened to the alternatives. Realistically, where else are they going to hear what the likes of Nick or Anthony are capable of doing with valve amplifiers, modified versions of other products or their own designs from scratch, or what Mark from Audiocom can do with CDPs and DACs? Or what a fully KAB modified SL-1210 sounds like?
I like your ideas above and think that's how it'll likely pan out. It has the potential to be very exciting.
Marco.
I'm still not sure I understand. What is the nature/purpose of this Manchester show?
Tim, it's one of the main events on the UK hi-fi calendar, like the Heathrow show in London, only better ;)
See here:
http://www.chestergroup.org/index.php
The same organisers are responsible for the Manchester show.
Marco.
I think we need to offer something viable to potential customers who can't actually do DIY (like both Marco and myself).
What the hell gave you the idea that you can't do DIY? :confused:
Believe me, you can!... It's relay not that hard. Just takes a little reading and practise, 'stuff' soon falls into place!
You shouldn't put yourselves down, it's actually quite simple to get stared.
Mike, Steve can speak for himself... I simply don't have the patience and would rather leave it to people who are (and will always be) better at it than me.
I'm quite happy to give experienced experts a design brief, let them get on with it, pay them on completion, and concentrate on listening to music :)
That doesn't mean I'm not interested in observing the ins and outs of other's experimenting, though...
Marco.
I simply don't have the patience and would rather leave it to people who are (and will always be) better at it than me.
See!... there you go again!
Don't put yourself down man!.... You could learn to solder in, ooh, maybe a few minutes! :)
LOL, aye, and I'll be as good as Nick or Anthony in no time, better even... Where's that flying pig? :lol:
Marco.
Jeez... now you're being daft!
I'm not talking about designing something from scratch here, just changing a few components here and there or following a schematic. Have a bit of faith in yourself and the rest will follow!
I've never 'designed' anything in my life (well, apart from a few telecoms bits) but I have no problem following a diagram. It is actually quite easy to to do that bit!
Have a bit of faith in yourself FFS! ;)
I know what you're getting at, Mike, but the problem is I like great sounding hi-fi gear and the chances of me being able to build something that would satisfy my high standards are infinitesimal :eyebrows:
Oh, I'm sure I could take the lid off something and bodge it but what would be the point? It would just sit there and gather dust. No, thanks for your concern but I know where my strengths lie, and most importantly, my limitations! :)
Marco.
I know where my strengths lie, and most importantly, my limitations! :)
On second thoughts.... This is probably a good thing.
I've just stood in my kitchen and remembered a safety course I attended while contracting on the Eurotunnel project. So:
If you are messing about with hight voltages and don't know what you are doing, leave it alone!
The nominal voltage for the Euroshuttle locomotives was 25KV. I remember seeing photos of people who 'fell foul' of this kind of voltage. You do not want to go there!
The most dangerous part of it was most certainly the 'train supply' which was 1500V DC @900amps!!! This could fry anything in microseconds.
In the interest of safety. If you don't know what you are messing about with, leave it!
Oh, good, an excuse to post a couple of my fave links :-)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cLEmPAsJBtU&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J2QGdVc6MyI&feature=related
:) Seen the 2nd one before.
Has anyone ever made a lacob's ladder or tesla coil...
Hey Marco... why not start with one of these nice easy projects :)
http://www.amazing1.com/tesla.htm
Easy-To-Build
Table Top Tesla Coil
250,000 Volts!
I kind of fancy the BTC5 - 1 million volts :mental:
Neil McCauley
01-09-2008, 23:09
The nominal voltage for the Euroshuttle locomotives was 25KV. I remember seeing photos of people who 'fell foul' of this kind of voltage. You do not want to go there!
The most dangerous part of it was most certainly the 'train supply' which was 1500V DC @900amps!!! This could fry anything in microseconds.
In the interest of safety. If you don't know what you are messing about with, leave it!
Antony Michaelson, in the TVA days, was caught by 500v DC across his chest and was only saved by the timely intervention of someone else using the classic umberella while standing on newspaper tactic. I saw the burn scars on the palms of his hands. Naturally I asked him if indeed his entire life flashed passed him in 1 second or so. He couldn't at that time remember. He and I therefore concluded that either [a] it was a fallacy or [b] he had led a particularly boring life up to that point.
---//---
Who wants to be the guinea pig in the cage afterwards.... don't all rush at once
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi4kXgDBFhw
I should get round to building a plasma tweeter one day.
Dave,
Hey Marco... why not start with one of these nice easy projects :)
http://www.amazing1.com/tesla.htm
Easy-To-Build
Table Top Tesla Coil
250,000 Volts!
I kind of fancy the BTC5 - 1 million volts :mental:
Hehe, if I ever fancy a 'perm' I'll bear it in mind!
Right, I'm off to do a write-up of the SP10/KAB 1210 comparison at the Chesterfest...
Marco.
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