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Mike
24-08-2008, 22:41
Hi,

I'm slightly surprised that nothing has been said by anyone so far about Saturday's 'Chesterfest', so I'll get the ball rolling!

Firstly and most importantly, I'd like to say a big thank you to Al for organising the event!

For me it was my first 'fest' and didn't really know exactly what to expect, I'll no doubt spend the next several days doing much chin rubbing.:eyebrows:

It was certainly very interesting in certain parts!.... :)

I'll add more stuff later once this thread gets going.



Cheers,
Mike.

Marco
25-08-2008, 08:26
I was waiting for Steve to post the pictures before I added a write-up :)

He'll probably post them later when he's up.

Yes indeed - a big thanks to Al for orgainising the event, which was good fun, and educational as these events usually are. It was also good to hook up with some familiar faces :smoking:

More later!

Marco.

Tony Moore
25-08-2008, 09:11
Yes, a big thanks to Al from me too for organising a fine event! I thought the day went very well, really relaxed and we heard all the equipment I think.

I did take a few photos but they were not really of the proceedings, mainly just some "fill in" shots of the equipment around the room. I've uploaded them and passed the links onto Al in case anyone wants to use them in a write-up. I'm not good at writing witty and informative accounts of the day so I'll leave that to someone with more talent! :doh:

A very enjoyable day and it was good to see familiar faces and a lot of new ones too.

Cheers,
Tony

Marco
25-08-2008, 11:42
Hi Tony,

Nice to meet you again. I liked your DAC :)

Update on pics - Steve's at Anthony's place returning some amps. When he gets back he'll post the pics.

There are all sorts of interesting things to talk about!

Marco.

Ian Walker
25-08-2008, 12:37
Yes nice to meet you all there on saturday,a big thanks to Al for putting it on,i liked your dac best!. Marco(Betty)looked extra shpecial in her shwetty blue vest as well.

hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

e.

Marco
25-08-2008, 12:50
Hehe... :eyebrows:

Not as shweet as you did in your black chemise emblazoned with granddad rock band memorabilia!

What happened to your wee khaki shorts? :lol:

Marco.

Ian Walker
25-08-2008, 18:11
Hehe... :eyebrows:

Not as shweet as you did in your black chemise emblazoned with granddad rock band memorabilia!

What happened to your wee khaki shorts? :lol:

Marco.

Harley Davidson ish a motorbike you big daftee.

Shorts are in the wash for next weeks Jimmy Crankee convention :lol:

Marco
25-08-2008, 18:27
Ah, I fot it wash a Motorhead t-shirt... :eyebrows: Besides isn't your bike more 'Raleigh' than Harley Davidson? :lolsign:

Btw, Steve heard your amp today at Anthony's. If you want details give me a bell.

Marco.

Marco
25-08-2008, 21:57
Oi, Stevie boy, where are these pictures? :confused:

The event will have been forgotten about before we see them! And you'll be too pished from the pub later to post them...

Marco.

Steve Toy
26-08-2008, 01:30
The Chestefest pics and my own conclusions will follow later today after some sleep and Imageshack playing nicely.

Mike
26-08-2008, 16:48
Steve, are you waiting for Boots to 'develop' your photo's or summat? :rolleyes:

Marco
26-08-2008, 17:11
LOL. I've grown a beard since I asked him!

Will we see the Chesterfest in time for 'Christmasfest'? The jury is out... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-08-2008, 13:47
Cheeky cnuts.

Here they are, coming one-by-one alors patientez s'il vous plaît!

I'll number them in order to facilitate ensuing commentary:

1) Open baffle speakers, valve output stage DAC sitting ontop of the venerable Audiocom modded Sony DAS R1 DAC. The little valve DAC was more detailed than the Sony when played into the SET amps but sounded rather brittle and 'digital' compared to the Sony through the push-pulls. Synergy is clearly an issue here.

I wasn't very keen on the open baffles TBH. Just not my thing.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4469/chesterfest08078xe8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


2) The taller speakers, the MLTLs, with the single high sensitivity driver and supertweeter (IIRC) I did like. They sounded really open, punchy, tuneful and refined without being overly polite. As a commercial offering they would have to cost around £5000 I guess.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1457/chesterfest08079bo2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


3) Marco's Technics SL1210 and Mike's WD88 push-pull amp that mated very well with my Piega TS5 speakers (they provided it with a load to sink its teeth into). Oh, and the Croft Charisma X pre with its lid off (its lid is always off.)

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/197/chesterfest08080my5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


4) and 5) Mike's WD88 amp (with damping rings on all valves).

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7978/chesterfest08081yq8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4325/chesterfest08082ac0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


6) Nick's regulated B+ and heater supply for his phono stage and DAC.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6118/chesterfest08083kw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


7) and 8) This WAD power amp is a two 300B a side running in parallel. I thought it was a push-pull but its actually a SET. I liked it very much for it had all the grunt of a good push pull with the grace, openness, separation and finesse of a SET amp. A cracking amp.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/567/chesterfest08084ge1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/1091/chesterfest08085qs2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


9) Al's DAC with its lid off.


http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1708/chesterfest08086nw4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


10) Nick (Lurcher)'s 211.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9435/chesterfest08087xv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


11) Al's home built EL34 amp.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5872/chesterfest08088yz5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


12) The three pairs of speakers used. The diddly little ones (Piega TS5) made a surprisingly big sound but not as refined as the taller ones next to them. They were better suited to the push-pull amps though. (Shameless plug - they are for sale...)

Food is being served - every f*cker's away to stuff their face! :eyebrows:


http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4341/chesterfest08092ex3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


13) In the red corner... Nick's setup. Pictured are his phono stage and step-up transformers, PSU for SP10, preamp and 211 power amp. In the foreground is the venerable Slatedeck SP10.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2528/chesterfest08093ar5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


14) In the blue corner... Mine and Marco's combined bits with KAB SL-1210, modified Croft Charisma X and offboard PSU, TD/AOS Class A 30w push-pull, Music Works Reflex block. Mana and QS Ref stands.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1663/chesterfest08095wi5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


15) Andrew's LCR phono stage, pentode front end (E810F I think), Dave Slage wound inductors for a 1k5 ohm RIAA eq stage (unlike the S&B units in mine that are 600 ohm), then D3A output stage.

+ Assorted voltage regs to supply the stages.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8448/chesterfest08094hi3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

16) Mr. Liang.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5455/chesterfest08096uk6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

lurcher
27-08-2008, 14:35
The first "what is this" was the regulated B+ and heater supply for my phono stage and DAC. The second was Al's DAC with its lid off.

Marco
27-08-2008, 14:49
Are there any more, Steve? So I know when to start the write-up. Great pics, btw, that camera on your phone is bloody good!

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-08-2008, 14:55
There are more, another 8 to put up.

Marco
27-08-2008, 15:03
Cool. I'll wait until you post them then.

Marco.

scoobs
27-08-2008, 15:25
Good stuff so far, what location is this? looks like a village hall or something, kind of expect to see some little old lady from the WI come through those doors with a tray of tea n' biscuits :) How were the sonics affected in a large space like that?

lurcher
27-08-2008, 16:17
The WAD 300b is a push pull. Interstage phase splitting.

Marco
27-08-2008, 16:28
Good stuff so far, what location is this? looks like a village hall or something, kind of expect to see some little old lady from the WI come through those doors with a tray of tea n' biscuits :)

LOL. There would have been but Al couldn't fit into the French maid's outfit :eyebrows:

You're close - it was a church hall, and getting a good sound was indeed a challenge, as it always is in these types of places. We had a fair stab at it though, particularly when the remaining diehards were listening to vinyl on the SP10 & modified 1210 later in the evening ;)

Full report to follow as soon as Steve posts the last of the pictures!


Marco.

Marco
27-08-2008, 16:35
Ah, I've just tried clicking on them and they appear to have been "Moved or deleted by Photobucket"... :confused:

Tony, perhaps you could advise?

Marco.

Tony Moore
27-08-2008, 19:11
It looks like the pasted links are somehow truncated. Here they are again:

A general view!

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/IMG_7992.jpg

Nick's amp and TT:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/IMG_7985.jpg

Nick's fantastic DAC and psu!

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/IMG_7984.jpg

Where's everyone gone?

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/IMG_7983.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/IMG_7982.jpg

Ah, they're outside having a chat!

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm168/TonyMoore300B/IMG_7989.jpg

Marco
28-08-2008, 21:18
Can we have the other eight pictures now, Steve, so I can get on with the write-up? :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
29-08-2008, 11:47
All pictures now uploaded. The two I forgot to take was a close-up of little DAC in the shootout with the modded Sony DASR1 DAC and the Lilliputian SET amp that sounded absolutely gorgeous and thoroughly musical. All 4 Watts of it.

Marco
29-08-2008, 17:04
What a guy! :clap:

Write-up later on or tomorrow...

Marco.

gary
29-08-2008, 22:37
Oh come on I could not make it down but the least I was hoping for was a good write up you must have spent some time listening in between drinking lol

shane
29-08-2008, 22:54
Anyone feel up to telling us what went on? I was looking forward to seeing the different perspectives of Audio-Talk and AOS members, but no-one seems to want to talk about it!

Mike
29-08-2008, 23:00
Ok, I'll start....

My gear sounded rubbish! :scratch:

gary
29-08-2008, 23:03
Compared to what Mike

gary
29-08-2008, 23:14
What did you think was better and why

Mike
29-08-2008, 23:16
Well....

The WD88 sounded pretty poor compared to all the other amps. It went from one extreme to the other, first sounding weedy and lacking gain, then after a bit of messing about to find some gain, thick and slow/congested.

The phono stage didn't sound too bad, not as good as Nick's and nowhere near as good as Andrews. There weren't many phono stages there though.

A bit odd really because neither sounded anything like they did the night before in Marco's system, and they don't sound anything like they did on the day now they're home. :confused:

Oh well! :(

gary
29-08-2008, 23:26
Hi Mike
Room acoustics play an important role so I guess that it makes it hard to draw acurate conclusions overall though what were your impressions on what was heard

Iain Sinclair
30-08-2008, 07:18
Hi Mike
Room acoustics play an important role so I guess that it makes it hard to draw acurate conclusions overall though what were your impressions on what was heard

Looking at the pics of the room I'd guess much equipment would struggle to sound good; lots of hard, reflective surfaces there.

Primalsea
30-08-2008, 07:58
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4325/chesterfest08082ac0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Mike,

I think I know what the problem was. It looks like you left some cock rings on your amp.

Everybody knows they delay the musical climaxes:lolsign::lolsign:.

Seriously though, looks like it was a good meeting. Unfortunately it was too far for me to travel for a day though. Is there any closer to Cambridge:eyebrows::eyebrows:.

Looking at the pics kind of gets the DIY juices running again.

Marco
30-08-2008, 07:59
Anyone feel up to telling us what went on? I was looking forward to seeing the different perspectives of Audio-Talk and AOS members, but no-one seems to want to talk about it!

Hi Shane,

I know what you mean - I'm surprised why there hasn't been some discussion about it on Audio Talk. Here I've been waiting for Steve to post the pictures before commenting so that they appear near the beginning of the thread rather than buried amongst pages of dialogue. Now that's done I'll be writing my thoughts once I've had my breakfast (and watched 'Saturday Kitchen' & Football Focus)! :)

Mike,

Your phono stage and amp sounded very good in my system, and we achieved a quality of sound that evening which we didn't get near at Chester, but that's to be expected due to reasons given.

When we were playing Kraftwerk on the 1210 with your amp through the Spendors at serious levels and you said the bass was hurting your back, that was a giggle! :eyebrows:

Marco.

scoobs
30-08-2008, 08:28
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2528/chesterfest08093ar5.jpg

A church hall you say?...Oh lordy!

Deliver us from belt drive
for thy is the japanese direct drive
the bass drive & the pitch stability
forever and ever
amen

Is that the 103pro doing duty there, was it swapped between decks?

themystical
30-08-2008, 09:02
This was my first experience of such things and what an enjoyable day it was too! Thanks again Al for making all the arrangements...perfect!!
With so many wonderful items of equipment, it is difficult to give an impression of all of them.
I partcularly enjoyed the shoot-outs. In terms of the DAC shoot-out, Marco's modded Sony sounded really well balanced and pretty close to perfection...although on second thoughts...I am not sure whether I preffered the more euphonic presentation of Al's Lampizator derived Crystal based DAC.
As far as amps go...I really liked the WAD 300B push-pull...but then again I was really impressed by the AoS? modded Puresound/Bewitch. Both of these gave me the "being there" feeling. I have to mention Ariel's small amp....this sung like the best of them!!! I want to build one of these too!!

Marco
30-08-2008, 09:29
Hi mate,

It was nice to meet you at Chester :)

I think we reached similar conclusions on what we heard, so you must have good ears ;)

You seemed to enjoy yourself (as did I). I'm not sure if you were there when the SP10 and KAB SL-1210 were demonstrated.

Btw, does anyone know where Al is? He's been very quiet.

Marco.

Marco
30-08-2008, 09:32
Is that the 103pro doing duty there, was it swapped between decks?

Nope - I didn't bring it. I brought the 103R to keep the cartridges the same so that the 1210 didn't gain an advantage. The cartridge on Nick's SP10 is also a 103R.

Marco.

Mike
30-08-2008, 09:47
It looks like you left some cock rings on your amp.

Oh so thats where they went, I wondered what happened to them.

Does anyone else need four? :eyebrows:

Steve Toy
30-08-2008, 10:36
Mike, I would be interested to hear your amp with the rings taken off. I am not generally a fan of things that dampen resonances - they often kill the music.

Mike
30-08-2008, 10:46
Well it would have been easy enough to try it. The EAT things on the small signal valves are worthwhile, but the large, ahem, 'cock rings' on the 88's don't seem to do anything at all TBH.

They were a bit too tight for me so I thought I'd try em on the valves instead. :smoking:

They're a waste of money.

Marco
30-08-2008, 11:02
Mike, I would be interested to hear your amp with the rings taken off. I am not generally a fan of things that dampen resonances - they often kill the music.


Ahem...


Bel Canto CD2 on 2 sets stacked of Black Ravioli pads...

;)


They were a bit too tight for me [as 'cock rings'] so I thought I'd try em on the valves instead.


Yeah, I use hula-hoops (not on the valves) :eyebrows:

Marco.

Steve Toy
30-08-2008, 11:43
Marco, I don't think the Ravioli actually dampen. The mystery compound within the outer parcel is too hard to be a dampening type material.

Marco
30-08-2008, 11:47
I'm not sure either, Steve, but it's a possibility. They're probably more of an isolation device, though. I think Mr Sallis should come clean about what exactly they are (or at least what they're specifically designed to do).

Marco.

alb
30-08-2008, 11:54
Btw, does anyone know where Al is? He's been very quiet.

I've been working long hours all week and not had much spare time.
I thought it best to wait for comments from those who attended, rather than muscle in straight away with my version.

It was as much a day out for the lads as anything. There wasn't a lot of groundbreaking or particularly unusual stuff there so perhaps difficult to make a big story of it.
Although i didn't get to hear everything properly, i came to the conclusion that there wasn't anything "unworthy" there.

I think we might have made better use of the room, by firing the speakers from side to side rather than front to back. But if we ever have another one i will endeavour to find a more suitable room anyway.

Finding a cheap place with good access and parking, and also speaker friendly, is not easy around here.

I see if i can collect my thoughts sufficiently to make some meaningful comments on individual items later on.

Primalsea
30-08-2008, 14:50
Looks like some others read this publication as well

Mike
30-08-2008, 15:32
Looks like some others read this publication as well

:lolsign: :lolsign: :lolsign:

Marco
30-08-2008, 19:40
Ok, some thoughts on what I heard at Chester. Once again thanks to Al for organising the event. The effort you put in was much appreciated and I hope you decide to do another one in future.

First of all DACs… As far as I can remember there were only four (if I’m wrong someone please correct me) Al’s DAC, Tony's, Nick’s, and my Audiocom modified Sony DAS-R1. My Sony X-777ES CDP was used as a transport for most of the time throughout the event and part of the equation when forming my thoughts below.

Al’s, Nick’s and Tony's are valve designs, whereas the Sony represents the solid-state side of the fence. To my ears Al has quite significantly improved his DAC since the Owston fest (so well done) and it had a beguiling way of making music – real hairs standing up on the back of your neck stuff, with instruments and voices floating in free space somewhat hauntingly between and in front of the speakers; the music just seemed to hang in the air and envelop your ears with all the airiness and realism I’m used to hearing with valves. The sound was big and bold, and had real conviction with all genres of music. With a 'fancy' case on it, I would compare it comfortably in terms of performance with commercial designs costing in the region of £3-4k. One thing that was very apparent with Al’s DAC was that it had more gain than any of the others, which I noticed when swapping over to the Sony later and having to increase the volume more on the preamp to compensate.

Any idea why that is, Al? I’m curious! Also does your DAC use TDA1541s like Nick’s and mine or something else?

I liked Tony's DAC a lot and it had quite a lot in common with my Sony, with perhaps an even more open sound due to the lack of filtering. It had that muscular, 'grounded' and rhythmic quality I associate with TDA1541s. It also looked the business! What held it back slightly though IMO was that Tony needed to hook it up to a Squeezebox due to connection issues and when playing music via his PC it seemed to contribute a vague quality which the Sony lacked before and also was absent in either Nick's or Al's DACs. I would like to hear it again connected to a high quality CD transport such as my X-777ES. It certainly had 'star quality' written all over it and would cost many thousands of pounds to produce if it were a commercially produced item.

Nick’s DAC was also excellent and seemed to have the edge on bass depth with a slightly less forward presentation than either Al or Tony's DACs, giving it more of an 'analogue' quality. That’s not to say Al’s or Tony's DACs were bright sounding – they weren’t, but they had a more obvious 'impressive' type of presentation which grabs you by the scruff of the neck and drags you into the music, whereas Nick’s tended to coax you in, plying you gently with its charms. I could imagine eight out of ten times people in a quick fire A/B demo choosing Al’s or Tony's DAC over Nick’s for that reason, which is more of a slow burn. Tony's though is slightly more of an unknown quantity due to the Squeezebox factor. That’s not to say that Al’s (or Tony's) is intrinsically the better DAC, but their bold style of presentation would likely win them lots of friends. It takes somewhat longer to appreciate the sonic subtleties of Nick’s design and for them to impregnate your psyche. Again in terms of performance, I would put it into the same commercial ballpark as Al’s or Tony's. This highlights once again the advantages of the D.I.Y route as I’m quite certain none of them spent that amount on parts!

What I heard with both DACs has got me thinking about possibly adding a valve output stage to the Sony, as although I still preferred it to any of the D.I.Y DACs (just), certainly in conjunction with my Sony transport (perhaps it was a synergy thing?), it didn’t possess the 'out of the box' presentation of either of the valve-based DACs, which I attribute to the valves. This is something I would like to have, providing I don’t lose the presentational qualities I value currently with the Sony: namely its solidity in terms of the way bass underpins the music giving it real impetus and authority and its sense of overall security and unflappability – as if no music could phase it no matter how demanding or complex. It could be a tricky task!

In terms of speakers, there were only three pairs there (not including Steve’s Piegas). I only very briefly got a listen to the ones shown in the second photo at the back behind Al’s open baffles and Andrew’s MLTLs, so I can’t really comment on them (whose and what were they?)

Al’s speakers I liked in some ways, being very open and detailed with that 'see-through' quality and total lack of boxy colorations renowned of open baffles. However time alignment was lacking and a sense of seamless integration between the bass and midrange giving music a slightly muddled quality certainly compared to what I’m used to with the Spendors. Bass depth and definition however were good and the sound overall had plenty of weight which is something I often find missing with open baffles and single-driver speakers particularly on the end of some SET amps. I’m sure though that as with anything D.I.Y it’s a case of work in progress and they are not yet the finished article.

Prize for the best speakers of the day though most certainly went to Andrew’s MLTLs designed by Scott, not present at the fest. Not only did they look beautiful with their hand-built real wood veneered cabinets, designed and constructed by Colin, but they sounded the part, too. I mentioned an 'out of the box' quality with Tony's, Al's and Nick’s valve based DACs earlier and this is precisely what Andrew’s speakers had in spades. Music was presented as a veritable ‘live event’ with the single full-range driver exhibiting very low levels of coloration and a seamless integration between midrange and bass (which was unfortunately lacking in Al’s open baffles) giving vocals in particular a wonderful natural, realistic, quality full of expressiveness that enabled one great insight into the music; the super-tweeter adding air and space and seemingly endless extension of the upper frequencies. Harmonic detail, timbre, and micro-dynamics were all in the highest rank giving not only a mellifluous quality to vocals and acoustic instruments but providing a palpable texture and depth which aided overall believability and painted a high definition picture of the musical landscape - one had very little difficulty suspending disbelief with these speakers. They even had decent bass. I loved them! How they would work in my system though is uncertain, but if I were to ever try an SET amp then these are the speakers I would use.

Amplifiers?

Sadly Mike’s WD88 didn’t cut it on the day and sounded somewhat soft and lifeless in the system demonstrated in that particular room. However I must stress most strongly that this is not how it sounded in my system at home, where it sounded the complete opposite, particularly when combined with my modified Croft preamp and KAB 1210 playing vinyl through Mike’s phono stage, so again it must be that synergy thing again (sorry Mike I know you hate that word!)

The WAD 300B, however, was really excellent and in many ways my favourite amplifier of the day. It combined the best attributes of SET and push-pull giving a spaciousness and delicacy as well as plentiful 'grunt' that was very addictive. Providing it matched well with my speakers I could quite easily live with this amp.

Nick’s 211 I’ve commented on before from the Owston fest. I like it a lot, particularly when used with his own speakers in his set-up at home. It has some genuine magical qualities which I don’t think I’ve heard from other SETs, and some decent power to drive not only open baffles and the like but 'real world' speakers. At some point it would be good to hear it in my system at home if he should visit Ian and me.

Dave Hewitt brought his recently modified Mr Liang but sadly due to the wrong capacitors being fitted it didn’t shine sounding strangely subdued and 'out of puff' playing even the simplest of fayre, which is in complete contrast to Ali Tait’s Mr Liang I heard at Owston. I am reliably informed however that since new the fitting of new capacitors it’s sounding very good. However his little 4-watt thingy (somewhat affectionally known as 'Mr Plank') really delivered the goods, sounded far bigger than it had any right to, and was musical to a fault. With suitably high efficiency speakers it would be a riot!

Steve’s AOS/TD amp has already been well reported on the forum and once again delivered at Chester, giving a real 'kick up the arse' to the rather 'delicate' MLTLs of Andrew’s such that he feared for his drive units! It may not have had the see-through nature of the SETs on show although it was pretty adroit at this, but it had a drive and propulsive quality in the bass that all the SETs lacked despite being arguably superior in other areas. The AOS/TD amp had its own magical type of presentation though which was as unique and desirable as the pixie dust qualities in Nick’s 211.

That’s it folks! A separate review of the Slatedeck SP10 and SL-1210 (together with phono stages) will follow later when time permits or tomorrow, which I feel needs its own space :smoking:.

Marco.

leo
30-08-2008, 20:01
Nice write up Marco, thanks!

If Als dac is the one I'm thinking of the price these things cost would make you cry
You need to get into diy Marco:eyebrows:

swampy
30-08-2008, 23:14
Dave Hewitt brought his recently modified Mr Liang but sadly due to the wrong capacitors being fitted it didn’t shine sounding strangely subdued and 'out of puff'

Marco.

I should stick up for Dave I guess since I have heard his amp many times at his home on various speakers and with various pre-amps inc the YSA pre-amp we brought. Mr Liang did sound very thin and lightweight and we were both surprised :scratch:. Dave was a little embarrassed... he did ask me to go and turn it off :) .

At first I thought it might be the YSA pre-amp since it had been recently tweaked with new caps so this was cast aside and Nicks put his pre-amp back on for a short while before the little 4W (aka Mr Plank) made his debut :)

On the way back Liang was doomed and destined for Dave's garage where many old project lie. However as soon as we got back to his house we put Liang on his horn speakers with the YSA pre and it sounded very good. The following week we upgraded some caps and it was even better.

The problem is we tune our amps to our own speakers, room and somewhat music taste so it can come a bit unstuck at these events.

I was impressed by Marco's 1210 setup the most. Everything seemed to gel in his system on the day.

Now that little 4W amp... I have borrowed this before from Dave. With vocals this amp is very musical and lush. What amazed me the other day is I tired it on my speakers which are a very nasty load being hybrid statics and it drove them much better than a Mr Liang 845... go figure. BTW a SET amp is totally unsuitable for these speakers. I thought I'd give it a go for a laugh. Mr Plank had the last laugh as usual. :doh:

alb
30-08-2008, 23:33
BTW a SET amp is totally unsuitable for these speakers

Maybe it was the PP output transformers.::scratch:

swampy
30-08-2008, 23:45
Maybe it was the PP output transformers.::scratch:

:)

This amp by all rights should sound wrong and should not even entertain a pair of speakers that dip to 2 ohm and need a P-P tube or sand amp. :confused:

lurcher
31-08-2008, 00:27
:)

This amp by all rights should sound wrong and should not even entertain a pair of speakers that dip to 2 ohm and need a P-P tube or sand amp. :confused:

I think the important thing is the 6080 valve used is not very linear, but it does have a very low anode resistance, less than half that of a 300b, so you can get away with a lower ratio in the output transformer, or if you use a convential transformer, the valve will see a high reflected impedance, which it will like, and the speaker will see a low impedance which it will also like.

Marco
31-08-2008, 06:51
Hi Swampy,

Welcome to the forum :)


I was impressed by Marco's 1210 setup the most. Everything seemed to gel in his system on the day.


Thanks for this and your other comments. I'm sure the Mr Liang sounds fab in its rightful set-up. I was very impressed with it at Owston - indeed it was one of the best amps of the day up there, so it was a shame it didn't deliver the goods at Chester in the same way. I understand the reasons, though.

I'm glad you liked the KAB 1210 - it would take something special for me to change it (maybe an EMT?) I was surprised how good it was when I first unpacked it from the States and played it, and I think it raised a few eyebrows at the Chesterfest.

Marco.

lurcher
31-08-2008, 09:47
I originally posted this on Audio-Talk, but Marco has asked me to copy it over here.

Well, my take on the day was it was a good day out, and thanks again to Al for all the hard work, but I am not convinced I came away with many new bits of information.

I think the problem was the room didn't allow a real comparison of anything. I think all the spekers in use were having to be driven very hard to get any response out of the room, so the amplifier/speaker interaction was hiding to a large extent anything else. I think it improved a little later when there was four or five of us left comparing vinyl, as the lower noise level (not a complaint, these things are about meeting and talking) allowd us to hear a little more what was going on.

The four sets of speakers each sounded nice, and I am sure much better at home. I wish I had had room to bring my OB's as their sheer size might have had a chance to drive the room, but anyway, the MLTL's sounded as good as I remember, and Colins woodwork was up to its normal standard, but judging by the amount of cone excursion we were getting we were way past the linear range of the speakers. The two OB's, Al's and Marks (I think please let me know whatever I get wrong here) were doing the OB thing, but were both suffering from trying to drive a large space with hard parallel surfaces. I thought Al's spekers in particular suffered, I remember them at Owsten, and here they seems a lot harder on top, and a bit harsh, and I am sure this was duce to cone breakup due to the volume.

We then tried switching through the DAC's, there were differences between them, (Marco's Sony, Al's Lampizator output stage, my 1541 based thing, and Tony's 1541 based DAC). But again the room I think rendered any real meanigfull comparison impossible. Al's DAC sounded nice, because I think it was more mid forward, so cut through the room better. The Sony was more wide band, but a bit relentless to my ears, again not possible to make any real comparisons IMHO.

We then went through some amps, and again the problesm I think overshadowed the real quality o the amps, as some of them to be truthfull sounded pants, and there was no way they would be like that at home. The 211 tends to just get on with it, but it is a 32w amp and doesn't tend to give a damb about loads. The 845 was very nasty, so it was clearly outside its confort range, the little 6080 set sounded much better, though I suspect the huge amount of 2nd harmonic distracted the ear. It also may have avoided room problems by having less bass extension. But it was one of the best sounding on the day, so it can't be bad. Tony's 300b PP sounded consistently good, once it had warmed up. The WD88 was having real problems, now I am not the greatest fan of this amp, but I know it sounds better than this. It sounded better once it had a pair of commercial speakers to get its teeth into. The puresound was interesting, at first hearing it sounded amazing, with a huge soundstage, and very extended freq response, but I would like to hear it in a real room, as it was so much better in some ways than others that I wonder if it was a audio version of MSG. I don't remember if we tried it on other speakers.

I did spend a lot of time making tea and talking to Andrew about stuff, so I may have missed a lot.

Then we ended on trying the turntables. at first I have to say, my sp10 sounded naff. It was better once we got the speakers in phase (woops), and better yet once I started playing records that allowed it to show off, but, I don't listen to them at home. The 1210 sounded better at this point, partly (I think) because it was using the commercial speakers and push pull amps, and was also mounted on a propper stand, instead the wobberly table I had put the sp10 on. But I am sure even then the 1210 was not fireing on all 4, as we played a Kraftwork track I know well, and sounded very slow and dragging, so again I think its the room killing bass transiants.

We then moved the sp10 to a better support, and it was much much better, then we moved the 1210 to the same table, and the differences between the two decks reduced, the 1210 was then placed on its support and the differences between them were hard to tell in the room. But it still showed that both turntables were still very dependent on mounting. Maybe we should get some of the Ikea tables next time.

The only difference I could head between the two tables (both using 103r, and everything else the same) was there was maybe a hardness to the upper mids on the 1210, which at the time I thought was the difference in arms, but later seems to have been due to the mats Marco was using.

We should have let the wad phono clone have more time, it sounded very nice as expected, but then Andrews LCR took over and we spent the rest of the time comparing step ups and head amps. Andrews LCR sounded very very nice, and he has almost sorted the hum out. Certainly good enough for the room, I don't know how it is at home, but its good, and in the process of becoming great IMHO.

The head amp / step up comparison was interesting, my gut feeling is I prefer the step ups (S&B), the head amp was very good, especially with simple parts of the music, better than the step ups when playing that sort of thing, but once the music goit louder/busy I think the head amp lost ist way a bit and started to sound confused. But of course I think the head amp was a old bit of kit, so maybe it would improve with some new caps in its power supply.

Ok, thats what I remember of the day, if I have got anything wrong, or offended anyone, sorry, but its what you hear thats important, not what other folk say. But as there was a lot of folk asking for a report, I thought I had better type something.

The next day at home when Mark came over, showed (I think) a lot of what we missed in the hall, as then we were focusing of parts of the sound that were completely out of reach the previous day.

Sorry if this comes over as a bit of a negative report, its not intended to be, and it was a good fun day, which I would repeat with pleasure, but I can only comment on what I heard.

Marco
31-08-2008, 10:14
Thanks for that, Nick. Excellent write-up; you've summed things up nicely, apart from the DAS-R1 sounding "relentless" ;) . I will add my thoughts on the T/Ts, head amps, etc later :)

Marco.

Marco
31-08-2008, 11:05
Maybe it was the PP output transformers.::scratch:

Al, what chips does your DAC use - is it TDA1541s? And why is the gain so high? I asked you this earlier but you must have missed it ;)

Marco.

themystical
31-08-2008, 11:33
I should stick up for Dave I guess since I have heard his amp many times at his home on various speakers and with various pre-amps inc the YSA pre-amp we brought. Mr Liang did sound very thin and lightweight and we were both surprised :scratch:. Dave was a little embarrassed... he did ask me to go and turn it off :) .

On the way back Liang was doomed and destined for Dave's garage where many old project lie. However as soon as we got back to his house we put Liang on his horn speakers with the YSA pre and it sounded very good. The following week we upgraded some caps and it was even better.
. :doh:

I had the pleasure of visiting Dave yesterday and listening to his Mr Liang again amongst all the other amps he has. It sounded absolutely wonderful...so much more refined and impactful..... and the difference in SQ between Chester and his own home was chalk and cheese! I want those Obligado capacitors too!!!:)

Mike
31-08-2008, 11:36
And why is the gain so high?

Do you mean 'output' ?

Marco
31-08-2008, 11:53
Yep, I guess so. It was quite a bit 'louder' sounding than the other DACs. I just wondered why that was the case.

Marco.

leo
31-08-2008, 12:01
Its based on one of those cheap ebay dacs using CS4397 which he's modded, these are voltage output dacs with pretty high output anyway, the op-amp has been disconnected and a SRPP stage fitted, the gain on these are also high so its much louder than the cd standard

Nice things that are very capable with a bit of tweaking

Marco
31-08-2008, 12:04
Thanks, Leo. Are you absolutely sure that's what Al is using - how do you know? Have you guys been in contact with each other, or can you just tell from the pics?

Marco.

leo
31-08-2008, 12:15
Thanks, Leo. Are you absolutely sure that's what Al is using - how do you know? Have you guys been in contact with each other, or can you just tell from the pics?

Marco.


Picture number 9 on here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17074&postcount=13 looking at the pic that is one of those CS4397 boards, he posted it in the diy thread called CS4397 dac I started, he also did post some pics but they seem to have gone now.

BTW theres a few other sites thats added a link to that thread over here, its proving to be a popular thread:eyebrows:

leo
31-08-2008, 12:18
I still need to get my valved one boxed up, it started off using an upgraded op-amp stage but Al kindly sent me a couple of his spare valves to try out

You can add a valve output stage to almost any dac if you wish, some are easier than others

Marco
31-08-2008, 12:20
BTW theres a few other sites thats added a link to that thread over here, its proving to be a popular thread


That's what I like to hear, we aim to please!

Now what you're saying about Al's DAC is very interesting indeed... It would explain why I thought it a little lacking in authority (bass weight) compared to Nick's DAC and my Sony, and somewhat more digital sounding, but in a nice sense.

Until now I had no idea that it didn't use TDA1541s, but it's interesting that my ears picked it up without being prompted ;)

Nice one, Leo, you've explained quite a lot!

Marco.

leo
31-08-2008, 12:30
That's what I like to hear, we aim to please!

Now what you're saying about Al's DAC is very interesting indeed... It would explain why I thought it a little lacking in authority (bass weight) compared to Nick's DAC and my Sony, and somewhat more digital sounding, but in a nice sense.

Until now I had no idea that it didn't use TDA1541s, but it's interesting that my ears picked it up without being prompted ;)

Nice one, Leo, you've explained quite a lot!

Marco.


Always glad to help:)

Seriously though those dacs cost about 30 quid, its crazy what can be done with a spot of diy

Was you thinking of slapping some bottles in your Sony? what I may do with my own TDA1541 based dac is add an optional external valve stage so I have a choice to use silicon or glowing bottles, running it direct from the dacs output and adding passive I/V, maybe a later project:eyebrows:

Anyway I won't steer this thread off topic:lol:
Nice write up chaps on the meet up, keep em coming!

Tony Moore
31-08-2008, 12:33
Hi All,

Great write-up Marco, thanks for that!

I totally agree with your comments regarding my SB3/DAC. I believe though that it wasn't performing right "on the day". The server PC was acting up something rotten. I had fitted a new bigger hard drive which was the newer SATA interface so my old PC that I was using didn't have SATA so I had to add an extra card. Since then it has been not working very well so I can only assume there was some sort of hardware incompatibility. Anyway, to cut a long story short, last week I bought a new motherboard, Althon dual core 64 bit cpu, memory and case and have loaded up Suse Linux on it instead of Windows. It now runs shedloads faster than the old Windows box and works a treat. Both Liz and I immediately heard an improvement in sound quality, I'm not sure why. :scratch: There theoretically shouldn't be any change in sound quality...

So I have a feeling that it wasn't working correctly before.

The other thing is that my DAC uses the old Hawk buffer board. (discrete solid state) I am going to move over onto the new SqueezeBox receiver (it's like an SB3 but without the display and it's I2S output is actually TDA541A compatible I2S already so I can ditch that CPLD board and simplify things more) and that will create a lot more space in the case. That will give me the option to add a valve buffer stage in place of the Hawk board.

So, I'm hopeful that I can make some considerable improvements!

Cheers,
Tony

lurcher
31-08-2008, 12:34
Just to add a bit more

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8448/chesterfest08094hi3.jpg

Thats Andrews LCR phono stage, pentode front end (E810F I think), Dave Slage wound inductors for a 1k5 ohm RIAA eq stage (unlike the S&B units in mine that are 600 ohm), then D3A output stage.

+ Assorted voltage regs to supply the stages.

Marco
31-08-2008, 12:36
Was you thinking of slapping some bottles in your Sony?

Perhaps, if it can be done without upsetting the Sony's current musical and tonal presentation, which I really like. However I loved the 'air and space' and 'floaty vocals' thing going on with Al's DAC, so if that can be achieved by lampizating then I'm in there!

Marco.

leo
31-08-2008, 12:39
Hi All,

Great write-up Marco, thanks for that!

I totally agree with your comments regarding my SB3/DAC. I believe though that it wasn't performing right "on the day". The server PC was acting up something rotten. I had fitted a new bigger hard drive which was the newer SATA interface so my old PC that I was using didn't have SATA so I had to add an extra card. Since then it has been not working very well so I can only assume there was some sort of hardware incompatibility. Anyway, to cut a long story short, last week I bought a new motherboard, Althon dual core 64 bit cpu, memory and case and have loaded up Suse Linux on it instead of Windows. It now runs shedloads faster than the old Windows box and works a treat. Both Liz and I immediately heard an improvement in sound quality, I'm not sure why. :scratch: There theoretically shouldn't be any change in sound quality...

So I have a feeling that it wasn't working correctly before.

The other thing is that my DAC uses the old Hawk buffer board. (discrete solid state) I am going to move over onto the new SqueezeBox receiver (it's like an SB3 but without the display and it's I2S output is actually TDA541A compatible I2S already so I can ditch that CPLD board and simplify things more) and that will create a lot more space in the case. That will give me the option to add a valve buffer stage in place of the Hawk board.

So, I'm hopeful that I can make some considerable improvements!

Cheers,
Tony

Hi Tone,

Wish I could have gone, sounds like it was a fun day

Be nice if you decided to try out the valve stage , we could start some thread in the diy section

BTW Tony I noticed slimserver etc can alter the sound quite a lot, I'm still not sure why it works better sometimes than others:confused: I've noticed a few people comment linux sounds better

Steve Toy
31-08-2008, 13:24
Just to endorse Marco's write-up. I think he's pretty close to what I thought myself.

As for my amp being a bit like MSG, I agree with Nick on this. It does sound kind of flavour-enhanced, but I'd like to attribute that to the fact that it was overdriving both pairs of the speakers it was used with, including the Piegas. Although the latter present a more push-pull-friendly load, they sound quite congested with this amp - you can never truly defeat the laws of physics. They sound great with amps with a bit less in the way of big dynamics.

I thought Nick's write-up was fair, accurate and honest.

swampy
31-08-2008, 13:58
Hi All,

have loaded up Suse Linux on it instead of Windows. It now runs shedloads faster than the old Windows box and works a treat. Both Liz and I immediately heard an improvement in sound quality, I'm not sure why.

Cheers,
Tony

Best thing you can do... ditch windows if you don't need it for any specific applications. I've pretty much grown up with MS products from the old 8088 days and dos 3.2 working in various computing and IT roles. I switched to linux about 5 years ago at home and it was a revelation once I got over the initial learning curve. I used Suse for a while and it is very beginner and user friendly. I'm a bit of a fan of Redhat Fedora. I still use win xp sp3 for games and software synths but that's about it.

As for it sounding better, if you are using flac files then it can only come down to the decoder I guess.

alb
01-09-2008, 08:02
Photo Number 11. Wossis then?


That is my home built EL34 amp, which didn't get used on the day. It's had plenty of previous outings.:)

Marco
01-09-2008, 08:43
I shall add the info in toute-suite :)

Marco.

lurcher
01-09-2008, 09:13
As for it sounding better, if you are using flac files then it can only come down to the decoder I guess.

And even that shouldn't happen as its lossless, so the output of any decoder sould be identical.

I wonder if the way the software intereacts with the squezebox while its playing is altered, and this causes more or less activity in the processor and this affects the audio via RFI, noise and the power supply.

swampy
01-09-2008, 15:44
And even that shouldn't happen as its lossless, so the output of any decoder sould be identical.


In theory no, I wonder if the on the fly decoder in whatever player is being used varies in its output from what a command line flac -d decode would write to disk ?
Also if the windows on the fly flac decoder would output exactly the same wav file as the linux decoder.

Someone with dual boot could test this for the command line decoder. Decode a flac on windows, then linux and do a checksum md5,sfv or whatever to compare the 2 wav files. They should match 100%

Have you ever tried altering the spread spectrum setting in the bios of some PC's ? ...rfi energy generated in a particular bandwidth is deliberately spread. Might help if RFI is an issue.

Marco
01-09-2008, 15:57
Gentlemen,

Far be it for me to stifle discussion but I would like to keep this one on-topic (and that means hi-fi or general comments re: the Chesterfest), so for any more computer based chit-chit please start a separate thread in the Digital Impression or Abstract Chat area of the forum.

I will then move the last two posts above to the new thread.

Thanks :)

Marco.

Marco
02-09-2008, 11:39
As promised!

First a bit of background:

I've always hankered after a 'serious' built-like-a-brick-shithouse direct-drive turntable such as an SP10, EMT, or one of the big Denons sold in the Japanese market, because the sheer levels of engineering are a sight to behold and their sonic reputation is legendary. I also have a love of high quality broadcast and professional analogue equipment. The good stuff in my experience completely outperforms most domestic hi-fi gear.

However practical issues, namely where to put the bloody thing (as any T/T I use would have to fit on my Mana rack), concerns about reliability, and having to source discontinued parts on the second-hand market should anything important go 'pop', cooled my enthusiasm and made me search for a viable alternative which could offer similar performance but was less of a statement of mass engineering. SP10 users tend not to worry about malfunction, and for good reason because the units are very reliable, if you get a good one, but when it comes to T/Ts with so many moving parts together with internal components in use, many of which are now obsolete, I would rather have one that's in current production and easily serviceable.

To cut a long story short, I scoured the Internet and discovered KAB with their modified SL-1210s after reading about them on a US audio forum. The comments I read there were so positive, and intriguing, that I carried out very detailed research on both the KAB modifications (and KAB as a company) and the SL-1210 in general. I discovered that the SL-1210 was actually a serious bit of kit that was originally designed as a hi-end audiophile turntable for the Japanese market in the 1970s (and not a cheap 'DJ deck' as it's condescendingly referred to today by the uninitiated) with a quality of engineering far in excess of modern belt-drive turntables, and indeed shared similar genes with the legendary SP10. The KAB modifications also appeared to raise the performance of a stock SL-1210 quite significantly, so I took the plunge and bought one direct from KAB, fully modified, and the rest as they say is history!

From using the deck (for just over a year now) and marvelling in its outstanding sound quality I'd often wondered how it would compare to the SP10, which is legendary amongst audiophiles, and whether or not the old SP10 actually deserved its cult-like status; 'romance' and aural memories fading with time can often sway the accuracy of people's opinions of classic equipment.

Last year I had the opportunity to listen to Guy Sergeant's SP10 (fitted with a hi-end Audio-Note MC cartridge and modified SME V arm) at the London hi-fi show, and then again at the Manchester show earlier this year in the same system, and I was highly impressed. It quite simply trounced the Bel Canto CDP which formed part of the same demonstration system. It was just leagues apart in the way it handled music.

What was very interesting though was that I could quite clearly hear a familiar sonic signature - Guy's SP10 had that solid, weighty, 'assured' sound that in my experience one only gets with a good direct-drive mechanism, or perhaps something like a Garrard, but I wasn't 'blown away' by the performance of the SP10 in the way that I was I expecting, certainly in terms of its legendary reputation, probably because my ears had already become attuned to hearing a similar type of presentation at home with my KAB 1210. Perhaps it had a touch more bass drive and some greater clarity and finesse from the Audio Note cartridge compared to my Denon 103 Pro but that was it. This was very encouraging because it appeared that with my modified 1210 I had pretty much obtained the SP10's sonic performance but in a much more practical package - result!

However, I also knew this was a show, and also an alien system, so it would be stupid to form any definitive conclusions. Therefore I left it at that. Then some months later I was up at Nick's place with Ian Walker getting his EAR 509 monoblocks 'tweaked' and I had the opportunity to listen to Nick's SP10, then in his home-made plinth, but crucially this time it was fitted with one of the cartridges I use (a DL-103R) and an arm that I'd owned and was very familiar with (a Hadcock GH-242). Again it was very interesting. It sounded so close to my KAB 1210 that it was almost impossible to distinguish any differences. However I still got the feeling that it had a smidgen more 'heft' in the bass. But everything else about the sound was pretty similar, allowing as best as I could for differences in equipment used in Nick's system and mine.

Anyway, that was three times now I had heard an SP10 and didn't feel short-changed with my KAB 1210, so it seemed that what I was hearing was genuine, not imagined, as it had happened too often now for it to be an accident. However, old experiences die hard and I still knew deep down that the only way to form a definitive conclusion was to hear an SP10 in my own system against my KAB 1210, or next best, in a proper A/B/A comparison in identically the same system even if it wasn't my own, preferably with others present who were not naturally biased towards the 1210.

Fortunately I got this opportunity at the recent Chesterfest... :)

Towards the end of the evening a few diehards and I (Nick, Andrew, Colin, Al, and a few others) decided that we'd heard enough digital nonsense and it was time for some proper music! Also I wanted to get my head properly around what I'd heard earlier in the T/T demonstration, which Nick has already accurately described. So I took my 1210 (fitted with a Denon 103R) off its Mana support and put it directly in front of Nick's Slatedeck SP10, fitted with his Hadcock and 103R, on the same table and connected it to the system being used. I think some Frankie Goes to Hollywood was being played on the SP10 at the time.

We then played the same track on my KAB 1210 and sat back and listened...

The sound had similar drive, pace, and a sense of solidity and security, as with the SP10, and that wonderful lack of 'wavering' on instrumentation and voices associated (and easily heard) with low-mass belt-drive T/Ts due to issues with speed stability, manifesting itself as a slurring of pitch and making for a ponderous type of presentation that quickly makes music 'thick' sounding, uninteresting and boring. Instead music on the KAB 1210, as with the SP10, was 'locked' into focus with little sense of stylus tracking vinyl groove and one was swept away in a tide wave of musical drama. Tonally, it was almost identical to the SP10, but lacked some of the visceral impact in the bass present with the SP10, and there was also a congested quality to the midrange making Frankie sound like he was suffering from the flu, and just a general lack of conviction in the overall sound giving the impression that the band were 'out of sorts' during the day of the recording. In short, the musical presentation lacked the joie de vivre and 'life' which had been there in abundance before with the SP10 at the helm. There was also a slight bit of distortion present making vocals sound a tad shrill.

Thinking to myself that this wasn't right, and suspecting what the problem was, I brought the Mana rack over from the other side of the room and plonked it on top of the same table that was being used before. I also adjusted azimuth on the 103R, which was out, so it must have taken a slight knock in transit.

I then played the same track again and we sat back and listened...

What a difference. Now the distortion was gone, and the 'life' and excitement factor was back with a bang! Listening to the music now there was almost no difference whatsoever between the two turntables either in the way music was presented or tonally, however, as before to my ears there was still a smidgen more authority in the bass with the SP10 than with the KAB1210, and I would put this down to the torque of the respective motors. Although the motor units are similar, I'm certain that the one in the SP10 is bigger and more powerful and this quite clearly to me gives it some extra 'heft', but that's about the only difference when both decks are identically set-up (Slatedeck plinth aside) in the same system.

Andrew made the comment that a "DJ deck" had no right to sound that good. I of course quickly pointed out to him that it wasn't one! :eyebrows:

One other thing that's worth noting is that the rewired and fluid-damped Technics tonearm didn't appear to be outclassed by the Hadcock. If it had it would surely have been noticable - tonearms, in my experience, play a big part in the sound of a turntable. This should send out a message to those, particularly editors of certain hi-fi magazines, who constantly deride the Technics tonearm. Once 'sorted' in terms of internal wiring, better headshell, etc, it's a top-notch piece of kit; indeed as clearly indicated by the quality of its bearings.

It should also be remembered, and indeed stressed, that I've spent quite a bit of money on KAB modifications (and others) and *ONLY* by doing this will an SL-1210 compete with an SP10. If anyone out there is under the illusion that logging on to Ebay and buying a cheap second-hand stock 1210 will result in them getting SP10 performance on the cheap then forget it. The standard SL-1210, whilst good, is just not in the same league.

With regard to the Slatedeck plinth, this obviously makes a big difference to the SP10 as firstly Nick's deck sounds much better than it did when I heard it before in his old plinth, and crucially, the SP10 had a clear advantage over the KAB 1210 when both decks were just sat on the table. It was only when the Mana support entered the equation with the 1210 that the playing field was levelled, which shows that the Slatedeck plinth was doing its job very well. It also shows how fussy turntables are about what they're placed on, and that plonking them on any old bit of furniture seriously hampers their performance. Equipment support critics should listen up! ;)

And so what are my conclusions?

I would still like to hear an SP10 in my own system before totally finalising my opinion - perhaps Nick would bring his over some time? I'm sure that would be interesting.

What seems quite clear though is that there appears to be little real difference between an SP10 (even in a Slatedeck plinth) and a fully KAB-modified SL-1210, apart from perhaps a little more bass authority. Other differences may become apparent in a different system to the one used at Chester; as usual with hi-fi there are too many variables to make any observations totally conclusive.

However, this report shows that the KAB modified SL-1210 is a serious turntable and fully deserves to be mentioned in the same context as the legendary SP10. Potential buyers of SP10s may wish to bear this in mind when contemplating the purchase of second-hand units with internal mechanisms that are now over 30 years old, together with practical considerations of sheer weight and bulk, when put in a suitable plinth, and weigh up the pros and cons of buying one against a brand new KAB-modified SL-1210 which is in current production, easily sited on conventional racks, and can be serviced quickly and easily. I know what route I'd take...

A review of MC head amps vs. transformers, and comments on mats, etc, will be posted later!

Marco.

P.S I will copy and paste this review over on to the Strokes of Genius section for reference.

John
02-09-2008, 16:32
Great write up Marco. Your passion for the 1210 clearly shines yet you also remained open and took time to form your thoughts.Really makes me want to hear a fully mod 1210 in the future

Marco
02-09-2008, 16:54
Thanks, John. I tried to be as neutral and unbiased as possible. I'm also sure there is still more to learn.

I rate both decks and consider them both quite special, particularly against some of the overpriced offerings in current production from so-called 'hi-end' T/T manufacturers, some of which are built like toys in comparison. Quality engineering in all areas and a super-accurate drive mechanism at the end of the day shines through.

Marco.

Primalsea
02-09-2008, 18:37
Sorry Marco, you haven't been very clear. Are you saying you like the SL1210??:lol:

Marco
02-09-2008, 18:39
Nah, it's just a cheapo DJ deck! :lolsign:

Marco.

johnrtd
03-09-2008, 12:08
As stated by Marco the Technics 1210 is NOT a specially fabricated DJ thing. It's a very serious turntable and even without any mod it shines among a lot of other "audiophile" players.
Funny to know that Technics once made special tonearms in various lengths. The topmodel outclassed any SME type! And I remember Aalt-Jouk v.d.H. using these arms to upgrade other TT's. The trick of a good tonearm is in the bearing. And even in the rather cheap 1210 those bearings are very very good constructed.
In the past I had various TT's, mostly Thorens TD125 or even the old TD115. Those were fitted with arms from SME type II, III and V or London Decca. But I switched over to the 1210. I use a v.d.H. MC cartridge mostly and sometimes an Ortofon MC70. The latter having a very low output.
I modded only the headshell by adding a small piece of Sirex. And I use our own brand of vinyl 5 mm disc instead of the rubber mat.
One of the nice things with the 1210 is that it's hardly effected by the subject where it's placed upon. Placing Sorbopads underneath makes a difference in that the music is played with more "ease" and it adds a bit of "solidness".
IMHO the standard 1210 is one of the finest pieces of machinery available nowadays and at a modest price level.

John

P.S.
Nice to see Tony Moore around. Be advised Tony to compare our analogue output amp on your DAC with a tubed one. If you included the last updates I wonder which one performs best??

Marco
03-09-2008, 14:03
You are obviously a man of impeccable taste, John! ;)

Nice tale, too.


As stated by Marco the Technics 1210 is NOT a specially fabricated DJ thing. It's a very serious turntable and even without any mod it shines among a lot of other "audiophile" players.


Absolutely right. The problem, John, is that it has the name 'Technics' written on it, not SME, Michell, Linn, Rega, Clearaudio, Roksan, or whatever, and as such it doesn't have the right 'badge' to be lauded in hallowed audiophile circles where kudos is given to those who buy with their wallet, not their head (or ears), simply to impress their peers.

No matter how good the 1210 sounded these idiots would no sooner have a Technics turntable than they would be seen coming out of Aldi doing the weekly shopping instead of Marks & Spencer :wanker:

It's also not a 'Flat Earth' brand, which is enough to put off the deluded with leanings towards this nonsense.

The "DJ" thing is a bit of a two-sided coin: on one hand they saved the SL-1200/1210 through thousands of them around the world buying the deck for club use - make no mistake it wouldn't still exist today otherwise.

On the other hand, because of this fact the deck has become synonymous with DJs (purely because of its sturdy build and quick start-up time) and thus snootily rejected by audiophiles (and the uninitiated) for that very reason!

Marco.

Togil
03-09-2008, 16:51
Absolutely right. The problem, John, is that it has the name 'Technics' written on it, not SME, Michell, Linn, Rega, Clearaudio, Roksan, or whatever, and as such it doesn't have the right 'badge' to be lauded in hallowed audiophile circles where kudos is given to those who buy with their wallet, not their head (or ears), simply to impress their peers.

Marco.

Marco, as a matter of interest what did the reviews say when the 1210 was first introduced ?

Marco
03-09-2008, 17:02
How old do you think I am, Hans? When the 1210 was first introduced I was in primary school!

As such I was probably more interested in 'The Magic Roundabout' than reviews of turntables :lol:

Marco.

Mike
03-09-2008, 17:26
more interested in 'The Magic Roundabout'

Not much has changed there then! :)

"Time for bed" said Zebedee!!!

Marco
03-09-2008, 18:02
Ah, you know it well. I used to go to bed though just when 'The Sweeney' started! It was deemed as too violent for me to watch. I used to hear the theme tune from up in my bedroom as my parents watched it downstairs in the lounge :(

Marco.

Mike
03-09-2008, 18:34
Ah, well... The extra two years I have on you made all the difference then, I WAS allowed to watch it! :ner:

lurcher
03-09-2008, 18:34
Gentlemen,

Far be it for me to stifle discussion but I would like to keep this one on-topic (and that means hi-fi or general comments re: the Chesterfest), so for any more computer based chit-chit please start a separate thread in the Digital Impression or Abstract Chat area of the forum.

I will then move the last two posts above to the new thread.

Thanks :)

Marco.

?

Marco
03-09-2008, 18:41
Hehe... Sorry, Nick! The Magic Roundabout and The Sweeney are infinitely more interesting than the ins and outs of bloody computers :ner:

;)

Marco.

shane
03-09-2008, 19:17
"Time for bed" said Zebedee!!!

BOINNNNNNGGGGG...

Steve Toy
03-09-2008, 19:40
Agreed. The other posts have been moved somewhere but not deleted.

Marco
03-09-2008, 19:48
Somewhere? Oooh... Is it a secret? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ali Tait
04-09-2008, 21:09
I had the pleasure of visiting Dave yesterday and listening to his Mr Liang again amongst all the other amps he has. It sounded absolutely wonderful...so much more refined and impactful..... and the difference in SQ between Chester and his own home was chalk and cheese! I want those Obligado capacitors too!!!


I'd say go for the SCR teflons.They are pretty pricey but worth it IMHO.They transform the sound of the amp.

Marco
17-09-2008, 22:40
Ali,

Are you bringing the Mr Liang along to the Owston-fest in November? I'd like to hear it again :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
18-09-2008, 16:35
Hi Marco,
Yes I'll bring it along,and also a pair of OTL monoblocks if they're good enough!

Marco
18-09-2008, 16:52
Shounds shexy, Mish Moneypenny... :eyebrows:

Marco.

aquapiranha
22-09-2008, 20:32
If there is another "happening" like this one, would there be any chance of attending? I live up the road...

If I can get them down the stairs I could bring my little speakers, and my amp of course.

aquapiranha

Ali Tait
22-09-2008, 20:49
If you look on Audio-talk,there is a thread regarding a meet at Owston on 8/9th Nov.If you let Steve know you'd be interested in attending you'll be made most welcome I'm sure.

aquapiranha
22-09-2008, 21:05
If you look on Audio-talk,there is a thread regarding a meet at Owston on 8/9th Nov.If you let Steve know you'd be interested in attending you'll be made most welcome I'm sure.

OK, what is "audio-talk"? is that another forum? Is that Owston in yorkshire?

aquapiranha

Ali Tait
22-09-2008, 21:20
Yes and yes! Audio-Talk is where some of us with a penchant for fiddling frequent.Here's a link-http://audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php :)

aquapiranha
22-09-2008, 21:29
Yes and yes! Audio-Talk is where some of us with a penchant for fiddling frequent.Here's a link-http://audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php :)

Cheers, I will have a look

aquapiranha

Marco
23-09-2008, 06:40
Steve,

I'd thoroughly recommend it. I've been to two of the fests now (Owston and Chester) and they're really worthwhile attending. Owston is the main event, and people come from all over the place to go.

It's a really friendly atmosphere, we all have a good laugh, and you get that chance to hear stuff that you simply wouldn't have access to normally.

I'm going in November, so if you fancy it we could always meet up at the Wirral and go on from there together up to Owston :)

Ian might even tag along, too, minus his chimney brush of course!

Marco.

aquapiranha
23-09-2008, 09:37
Steve,

I'd thoroughly recommend it. I've been to two of the fests now (Owston and Chester) and they're really worthwhile attending. Owston is the main event, and people come from all over the place to go.

It's a really friendly atmosphere, we all have a good laugh, and you get that chance to hear stuff that you simply wouldn't have access to normally.

I'm going in November, so if you fancy it we could always meet up at the Wirral and go on from there together up to Owston :)

Ian might even tag along, too, minus his chimney brush of course!

Marco.

I would love to have gone, but I have a ticket for Fleet Foxes at the Manchester acaemy that sunday, and have my son on the saturday, so it's a no no for me I am afraid. I will try to make the next one though, it looks like there is a great mix of kit to ogle at and listen to!

aquapiranha

Ali Tait
23-09-2008, 09:41
There will be another probably around June next year if not earlier.

Marco
23-09-2008, 19:02
Fleet Foxes live at the Manchester Academy? Lucky Bastid! :eyebrows:

I've got their album and it's fab. Let me know if they're as good (or better) live :)

Marco.

aquapiranha
23-09-2008, 19:21
Fleet Foxes live at the Manchester Academy? Lucky Bastid! :eyebrows:

I've got their album and it's fab. Let me know if they're as good (or better) live :)

Marco.

Will do Marco! they are sold out now too, I thought that might happen, great band, good to see a "new" band break the mould a little.